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To make a long story short, I have allowed a player to make a character for a Nightbane game that is an Apok. I have used different flavour text to explain his existence and the retention of most magical powers in the new setting, but for all intents and purposes he is an Apok.

A couple of questions came up in a recent session, and I'd like to know what others think.

1.) Apok's Hellfire. If he starts it part way through a melee, when does it start? How often (if someone stays within the flames) through the melee does someone take damage from the flames?

2.) Apoks deal double damage against supernatural enemies. The Nightlord's minions, Hounds, take 1/2 damage from any non-magic/psionic/supernatural attack.
So, lets say the Apok picks up a crowbar. The crowbar itself is not magic. It is not a psionic crowbar. It is not a supernatural crowbar. Lets say as a crowbar it deals 2d6 damage in the hands of joe average against a hooligan mugger. In the hands of Joe Average against a Hound, it would deal 1d6 damage.
In the hands of the Apok against a Hound, would it deal 2d6 damage, because the Hound has halved the damage and then it has been multiplied by the Apok? Or would the Apok deal 4d6 damage with the crowbar against the hound, because the Apok's damage multiplier ability is a form of magical effect?

The ineffible GM wrote:To make a long story short, I have allowed a player to make a character for a Nightbane game that is an Apok. I have used different flavour text to explain his existence and the retention of most magical powers in the new setting, but for all intents and purposes he is an Apok.

A couple of questions came up in a recent session, and I'd like to know what others think.

1.) Apok's Hellfire. If he starts it part way through a melee, when does it start? How often (if someone stays within the flames) through the melee does someone take damage from the flames?

2.) Apoks deal double damage against supernatural enemies. The Nightlord's minions, Hounds, take 1/2 damage from any non-magic/psionic/supernatural attack.
So, lets say the Apok picks up a crowbar. The crowbar itself is not magic. It is not a psionic crowbar. It is not a supernatural crowbar. Lets say as a crowbar it deals 2d6 damage in the hands of joe average against a hooligan mugger. In the hands of Joe Average against a Hound, it would deal 1d6 damage.
In the hands of the Apok against a Hound, would it deal 2d6 damage, because the Hound has halved the damage and then it has been multiplied by the Apok? Or would the Apok deal 4d6 damage with the crowbar against the hound, because the Apok's damage multiplier ability is a form of magical effect?

Per the explicit text in the Apok entry, anything that the Apok picks up to fight with does the doubled damage against the Evil Supernatural...roughly similar to the Pogtal Dragon Slayer's ability or that of the Sea Inquisitor.

Of course, if Mr. Apok tries the exact same thing with the exact same crowbar on Mr. Evil Non-Supernatural Creature standing right next to Mr. Supernatural Evil, he does only normal (for an Apok) damage.

cornholioprime wrote:Per the explicit text in the Apok entry, anything that the Apok picks up to fight with does the doubled damage against the Evil Supernatural...roughly similar to the Pogtal Dragon Slayer's ability or that of the Sea Inquisitor.

Of course, if Mr. Apok tries the exact same thing with the exact same crowbar on Mr. Evil Non-Supernatural Creature standing right next to Mr. Supernatural Evil, he does only normal (for an Apok) damage.

I'm well aware of the explicit text in the book which I read over several times in seeking the answer to the question that I asked and you didn't really answer.

Of course it would deal double damage in his hands, the question is, would it still get halved as well?
normal vs normal = 2d6 + PS bonus damage
apok vs normal = 2d6 + Supernatural PS damage
Apok vs supernatural evil = (2d6 + Supernatural PS damage)x2
normal vs Hound = (2d6 + PS bonus damage) /2

So, if it's Apok vs Hound does it become
A: Apok vs Hound = (2d6 + Supernatural PS damage)x2
or
B: Apok vs Hound = (2d6 + Supernatural PS damage)x2 /2
?

The ineffible GM wrote:

cornholioprime wrote:Per the explicit text in the Apok entry, anything that the Apok picks up to fight with does the doubled damage against the Evil Supernatural...roughly similar to the Pogtal Dragon Slayer's ability or that of the Sea Inquisitor.

Of course, if Mr. Apok tries the exact same thing with the exact same crowbar on Mr. Evil Non-Supernatural Creature standing right next to Mr. Supernatural Evil, he does only normal (for an Apok) damage.

I'm well aware of the explicit text in the book which I read over several times in seeking the answer to the question that I asked and you didn't really answer.

Of course it would deal double damage in his hands, the question is, would it still get halved as well?
normal vs normal = 2d6 + PS bonus damage
apok vs normal = 2d6 + Supernatural PS damage
Apok vs supernatural evil = (2d6 + Supernatural PS damage)x2
normal vs Hound = (2d6 + PS bonus damage) /2

So, if it's Apok vs Hound does it become
A: Apok vs Hound = (2d6 + Supernatural PS damage)x2
or
B: Apok vs Hound = (2d6 + Supernatural PS damage)x2 /2
?

Help me out here.

What's so dad-blamed difficult about FIRST rolling/calculating the damage that any given weapon would do, normally, adding in any apllicable penalties if any, and then doubling the end result per the Apok's description??

Is there really something complicated or hidden here in his question that I'm not understanding, ladies and gentlemen...or is this guy trying to turn Simple Arithmetic into Advanced Calculus??

Smashed wrote:

The ineffible GM wrote:

cornholioprime wrote:Per the explicit text in the Apok entry, anything that the Apok picks up to fight with does the doubled damage against the Evil Supernatural...roughly similar to the Pogtal Dragon Slayer's ability or that of the Sea Inquisitor.

Of course, if Mr. Apok tries the exact same thing with the exact same crowbar on Mr. Evil Non-Supernatural Creature standing right next to Mr. Supernatural Evil, he does only normal (for an Apok) damage.

I'm well aware of the explicit text in the book which I read over several times in seeking the answer to the question that I asked and you didn't really answer.

Of course it would deal double damage in his hands, the question is, would it still get halved as well?
normal vs normal = 2d6 + PS bonus damage
apok vs normal = 2d6 + Supernatural PS damage
Apok vs supernatural evil = (2d6 + Supernatural PS damage)x2
normal vs Hound = (2d6 + PS bonus damage) /2

So, if it's Apok vs Hound does it become
A: Apok vs Hound = (2d6 + Supernatural PS damage)x2
or
B: Apok vs Hound = (2d6 + Supernatural PS damage)x2 /2
?

The answer is B.

Yes....or to put it another way, there isn't one great big Dice Roll that simultaneously combines the Apok's total damage roll with the Hound's half-damage ability; they are two separate things.

FIRST, the Apok rolls his damages and all applicable bonuses; then, the Hound halves the result (assuming in advance that the Hound does indeed halve all damage regardless of the source).

cornholioprime wrote:

Smashed wrote:

The ineffible GM wrote:

cornholioprime wrote:Per the explicit text in the Apok entry, anything that the Apok picks up to fight with does the doubled damage against the Evil Supernatural...roughly similar to the Pogtal Dragon Slayer's ability or that of the Sea Inquisitor.

Of course, if Mr. Apok tries the exact same thing with the exact same crowbar on Mr. Evil Non-Supernatural Creature standing right next to Mr. Supernatural Evil, he does only normal (for an Apok) damage.

I'm well aware of the explicit text in the book which I read over several times in seeking the answer to the question that I asked and you didn't really answer.

Of course it would deal double damage in his hands, the question is, would it still get halved as well?
normal vs normal = 2d6 + PS bonus damage
apok vs normal = 2d6 + Supernatural PS damage
Apok vs supernatural evil = (2d6 + Supernatural PS damage)x2
normal vs Hound = (2d6 + PS bonus damage) /2

So, if it's Apok vs Hound does it become
A: Apok vs Hound = (2d6 + Supernatural PS damage)x2
or
B: Apok vs Hound = (2d6 + Supernatural PS damage)x2 /2
?

The answer is B.

Yes....or to put it another way, there isn't one great big Dice Roll that simultaneously combines the Apok's total damage roll with the Hound's half-damage ability; they are two separate things.

FIRST, the Apok rolls his damages and all applicable bonuses; then, the Hound halves the result (assuming in advance that the Hound does indeed halve all damage regardless of the source).

Actually don't Hounds take 1/2 damage from everything, except magic and supernatural attacks? I know that such attacks ignore their armor rating, and just need a standard roll to strike.

JTwig wrote:

cornholioprime wrote:

Smashed wrote:

The ineffible GM wrote:

cornholioprime wrote:Per the explicit text in the Apok entry, anything that the Apok picks up to fight with does the doubled damage against the Evil Supernatural...roughly similar to the Pogtal Dragon Slayer's ability or that of the Sea Inquisitor.

Of course, if Mr. Apok tries the exact same thing with the exact same crowbar on Mr. Evil Non-Supernatural Creature standing right next to Mr. Supernatural Evil, he does only normal (for an Apok) damage.

I'm well aware of the explicit text in the book which I read over several times in seeking the answer to the question that I asked and you didn't really answer.

Of course it would deal double damage in his hands, the question is, would it still get halved as well?
normal vs normal = 2d6 + PS bonus damage
apok vs normal = 2d6 + Supernatural PS damage
Apok vs supernatural evil = (2d6 + Supernatural PS damage)x2
normal vs Hound = (2d6 + PS bonus damage) /2

So, if it's Apok vs Hound does it become
A: Apok vs Hound = (2d6 + Supernatural PS damage)x2
or
B: Apok vs Hound = (2d6 + Supernatural PS damage)x2 /2
?

The answer is B.

Yes....or to put it another way, there isn't one great big Dice Roll that simultaneously combines the Apok's total damage roll with the Hound's half-damage ability; they are two separate things.

FIRST, the Apok rolls his damages and all applicable bonuses; then, the Hound halves the result (assuming in advance that the Hound does indeed halve all damage regardless of the source).

Actually don't Hounds take 1/2 damage from everything, except magic and supernatural attacks? I know that such attacks ignore their armor rating, and just need a standard roll to strike.

I don't know.

May the gods forgive me, but the ONE area of the Palladium Megaverse for which I have NO books at all is the Nightbane/BTS Series (not entirely my fault; I can't even find the books at my local gaming stores, and I am always hesitant to buy stuff online, so I don't get very many things from the Palladium Website).

But my understanding of the way that things USUALLY work is that True Supernatural creatures almost always take full damage from magical attacks, even if they otherweise invulnerable or nearly invulnerable to other tyes of attacks.

play nice

actually the way I would run it is that the apok does full damage (including the x2) i wouldn't half the damage from an apok because anything they pick up (whether it be uber magic sword or a crowbar) does double damage to all things sn evil.

The correct answer would be that it is a Hound would take FULL double damage from the attack. The Apok's ability transforms anything it wields into formidable magic weapons, even doing MD damage with SDC weapons in MD environments. Thus even a bar-stool would count as a magical strike in the hands of an Apok against evils for whom the distinction mattered, such as vampires, harbingers, mummy immortali, splitting zavor, and, yes, even hounds.

So how did you get around the no-transformation ability of the Nightbane to allow the Nightbane to become an Apok?

Jefffar wrote:So how did you get around the no-transformation ability of the Nightbane to allow the Nightbane to become an Apok?

He didn't say that, it's just an Apok on the Nightbane setting Earth. Main thing he would have had to work around was the loss of Wormwood priestly powers, but he already said he's explaining them differently so no worries there.

take that hound

Lucas wrote::thwak: take that hound

I find this far more hilarious than I think I should.
Add to that the growing mental image of that staring the hound and crossbar, repeatedly.

The ineffible GM wrote:1.) Apok's Hellfire. If he starts it part way through a melee, when does it start? How often (if someone stays within the flames) through the melee does someone take damage from the flames?

It starts at the beginning of the next melee after the character casts it. I'm not sure how to deal with continued exposure to the flames; taking damage during every attack seems logical, but that means that opponents who have more attacks will take more damage in the same amount of time as someone with fewer attacks, which doesn't seem so logical.

2.) Apoks deal double damage against supernatural enemies. The Nightlord's minions, Hounds, take 1/2 damage from any non-magic/psionic/supernatural attack.
So, lets say the Apok picks up a crowbar. The crowbar itself is not magic. It is not a psionic crowbar. It is not a supernatural crowbar. Lets say as a crowbar it deals 2d6 damage in the hands of joe average against a hooligan mugger. In the hands of Joe Average against a Hound, it would deal 1d6 damage.
In the hands of the Apok against a Hound, would it deal 2d6 damage, because the Hound has halved the damage and then it has been multiplied by the Apok? Or would the Apok deal 4d6 damage with the crowbar against the hound, because the Apok's damage multiplier ability is a form of magical effect?

Apoks have supernatural strength, which means that any weapon in their hands will inflict full damage to hounds (and double or triple damage to some other Nightlands denizens), whether it is magical or not. Additionally, the mask causes the Apok's attacks to do double damage, which means the crowbar will inflict (2D6 + Supernatural Punch Damage) x 2 damage to hounds.

I'd actually alter the apok's double-damage ability to add that any weapon they wield counts as magical against hounds or other beings that take reduced damage from non-magic weapons.

Can an MDC creature like an Apok even get juicer augmentation?

The only one I can see working on MDC creatures is the Splugorth Juicer.

Jmacq1 wrote:Under normal circumstances, no. A MDC creature (much less one that regenerates as Apoks do) shouldn't be able to get the Juicer augmentation in any form.

But he specified that his GM "changed the rules" to allow him to do it.

Hmm, that's got me thinking about regular Wormwood natives. It flat out says that they're not supernatural beings, they're just naturally mega-damage structures because they've been living their entire lives in Wormwood, eating its food, breathing its air, and drinking its water. Apart from that they're supposed to be perfectly ordinary human beings, with (presumably) the same metabolism and the same reaction to drugs as anyone else. So you could conceivably make Wormwood-native juicers who have hundreds of MDC.

Which is just one more reason why the stats and game mechanics in the Wormwood book are completely stupid and need an overhaul