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What specifically did you have in mind?

(PM me if you want to keep it out of the public arena)

I think the fallen knights are pretty much fine as-is. They're actually fairly balanced, as long as everyone else isn't human vagabonds.
I think the Cosmo-knight needs a bit of clarification on certain things tho... for instance, I don't think a wolfen could pass as a member of his species without the sense of smell, enhanced hearing, and nightvision.
I don't think an elf could pass withoput nightvision. Little stuff like that.
Others say they CK is completely remade, and even logical things that should be kept (sense of smell... wolfen have muzzles, that doesn't go away, as a for instance) are always completely lost. I also think they should be able to make two weapons, if they wish to invest the PPE/ MDC into it. Some disagree.

gadrin wrote:CKs are made to do battle with starships, but how do get one to surrender ? They just stop fighting ? What if you don't want to destroy one, just cripple it ? What if the pilot is willing to surrender without a fight ? (by sending over a radio-gram: "Surrender or I'll blast you!!!")

Knocking on the bridge window makes the trick, I guess...

But seriously, we are expecting some development on the field
of starship (combat) rules, so the CK's must be altered so they
"fit" into the "pattern of things" - so give them a "signal radius"
(how hard to detect them), and maybe an option to do massive
damage - because in their current form they can be soundly
beaten by a (well equipped) Power Armor (OK, maybe a squad
of four, but most frigates carry more).

But that can wait (IMO) the "Fleets/Starships of the 3 Galaxies"...

Adios
KLM

I'll add to this discussion by listing some of the things have come up in my own campaign (and maybe Greyaxe will chime in here too).

* Communication: the CK's must have some kind of "cosmic radio" or else they can't talk to anyone while in space (or flying at supersonic speeds within an atmosphere).

* Flying Speed: I have come up with a solution to this in a long-previous post, but basically the CK can fly at one light year per hour at first level. This goes up by one increment every other level. this means that a newbie CK can only hope to chase bad guys away unless he has a powerful mentor or band of Player Characters with him... whereas a 15th CK can outfly any starship int he 3 G's.

* Sight: Do CK's see in the entire light spectrum, or just visible light?

* Cosmic Energy: Hopefully, this will soon be cannon, but cosmic energy inflicts half damage to vampires, and full damage to creatures affected only by magic. Conversely, Cosmic energy inflicts no damage to Cosmo-Knights. Use this ruling or don't... it's the holidays and I don't feel like getting into this argument again or derailing Rogue Scientist's thread for a dozen pages.

* Loss of natural abilities?: In the end, it's the GMs call, but I advocate that they vanish in favour of the new powers. I do this because accepting the Call of Forge means that while the character now serves a greater purpose, they have also chosen to leave certain things behind them (family, friends, racial acceptance, etc.) just like if the character decided to become a cyborg, they are now something more (or less) than human (or whatever they started out as.) Yes, a Wulfen CK can walk through the streets of his home town and pass for just another member of his race, but he will never again know the pleasure of scent-indentifying a loved one. The Forge's offer is not to be taken lightly...

-yawn-
Huh wha....?
Someone saying something?
Oh..I thought this was a discussion on how to make the Cosmo Knights more INTERESTING...not how can we bore people with more stats and number crunching and nit picking.

gadrin wrote:

DhAkael wrote:-yawn-
Huh wha....?
Someone saying something?
Oh..I thought this was a discussion on how to make the Cosmo Knights more INTERESTING...not how can we bore people with more stats and number crunching and nit picking.

yeah right.

how complex is the average character anyway ?

Depends on the time and effort the player puts into it.

I agree...The skills as is would be good if, say, the Cosmic Forge picks some joe average base-literate off the backstreets of some city and made him/her a champion....A professional lawman or scholar who gets the Call should have so much more in the way of skills....

But by the same token, the Forge is looking for a certain strength of spirit, not just high stats, lots of skills, and already lots of powers...While Palladium characters are hardly balanced(because the universe isn't), shouldn't the CosmoKnights reflect not just obvious strengths, but less obvious ones as well? Maybe that saddletramp CosmoKnight's high MA or ME should translate into something extra-tangible but put him or her on a par with the Wolfen ex-milspecialist with the honking big PP stats....

I thought about trying to see if I could create a CosmoKnight-like warrior with Heroes Unlimited...tough, but it's a source of ideas...

* Loss of natural abilities?: In the end, it's the GMs call, but I advocate that they vanish in favour of the new powers. I do this because accepting the Call of Forge means that while the character now serves a greater purpose, they have also chosen to leave certain things behind them (family, friends, racial acceptance, etc.) just like if the character decided to become a cyborg, they are now something more (or less) than human (or whatever they started out as.) Yes, a Wulfen CK can walk through the streets of his home town and pass for just another member of his race, but he will never again know the pleasure of scent-indentifying a loved one. The Forge's offer is not to be taken lightly...

i think that this is a tad bit extreme. after all, for example, the Wulfen's ability to scent ID people would be an application of their naturally acute nose, like all canids. shall we assume that humans lose color vision? or a dolphin loses echolocation?

now, a noro would definately lose any Psychic powers, a Psi-ghost would lose the intangibility ability, and so on, but things that are biological and not supernatural should stay. the forge would recognise that those are natural parts of the race, and leave them alone. (or maybe enhance them. like giving color vision to canids, or correcting hearing problems in humans.)

so for example, lets use a dogboy. under your scheme, they're just human with dog features. under mine, they retain the acute sense of smell, but lose the ability to sense the supernatural and magic.

gadrin wrote:

glitterboy2098 wrote:

* Loss of natural abilities?: In the end, it's the GMs call, but I advocate that they vanish in favour of the new powers. I do this because accepting the Call of Forge means that while the character now serves a greater purpose, they have also chosen to leave certain things behind them (family, friends, racial acceptance, etc.) just like if the character decided to become a cyborg, they are now something more (or less) than human (or whatever they started out as.) Yes, a Wulfen CK can walk through the streets of his home town and pass for just another member of his race, but he will never again know the pleasure of scent-indentifying a loved one. The Forge's offer is not to be taken lightly...

i think that this is a tad bit extreme. after all, for example, the Wulfen's ability to scent ID people would be an application of their naturally acute nose, like all canids. shall we assume that humans lose color vision? or a dolphin loses echolocation?

now, a noro would definately lose any Psychic powers, a Psi-ghost would lose the intangibility ability, and so on, but things that are biological and not supernatural should stay. the forge would recognise that those are natural parts of the race, and leave them alone. (or maybe enhance them. like giving color vision to canids, or correcting hearing problems in humans.)

so for example, lets use a dogboy. under your scheme, they're just human with dog features. under mine, they retain the acute sense of smell, but lose the ability to sense the supernatural and magic.

well if your GM is running games based on scent for a Wulfen Cosmo-Knight then I think there's something else wrong.

"Yep! Solved the hole thing when I smelled the kidnapped princess' perfume, I did. Summoned my armor, my Cosmic Chainsaw and they surrendered right on the spot!"

Its a valid point though. For example my Slurmph CK ran into the same issues while I was making it. They can only see in different light spectrums than humans/normal races, can only speak with the telepathy psionic. I ruled that they could keep those, but loose their special oozing abilities. The CK really needs a rewrite/clairification.

glitterboy2098 wrote:

* Loss of natural abilities?: In the end, it's the GMs call, but I advocate that they vanish in favour of the new powers. I do this because accepting the Call of Forge means that while the character now serves a greater purpose, they have also chosen to leave certain things behind them (family, friends, racial acceptance, etc.) just like if the character decided to become a cyborg, they are now something more (or less) than human (or whatever they started out as.) Yes, a Wulfen CK can walk through the streets of his home town and pass for just another member of his race, but he will never again know the pleasure of scent-indentifying a loved one. The Forge's offer is not to be taken lightly...

i think that this is a tad bit extreme. after all, for example, the Wulfen's ability to scent ID people would be an application of their naturally acute nose, like all canids. shall we assume that humans lose color vision? or a dolphin loses echolocation?

now, a noro would definately lose any Psychic powers, a Psi-ghost would lose the intangibility ability, and so on, but things that are biological and not supernatural should stay. the forge would recognise that those are natural parts of the race, and leave them alone. (or maybe enhance them. like giving color vision to canids, or correcting hearing problems in humans.)

so for example, lets use a dogboy. under your scheme, they're just human with dog features. under mine, they retain the acute sense of smell, but lose the ability to sense the supernatural and magic.

That's what I'm saying.

gadrin wrote:

NovenTheHero wrote: I ruled that they could keep those, but loose their special oozing abilities. The CK really needs a rewrite/clairification.

well, what I meant also was that the Forge isn't going to call an oozing ball of slime... at least not in my uni.

might be good for a comedy campaign, hence the Cosmic Chainsaw reference. you know some nitwit will have one sooner or later.

"Yeah, and it takes Cosmic Diesel !!!"

<rrrr, rrrrrrrrrr, rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr>

Actually, I've seen the cosmic chainsword... nothing wrong with it, really.
Hell, half of the pictures in the book have cosmo-knights wielding things that look an awful lot like lightsabres to me...

gadrin wrote:

NovenTheHero wrote: I ruled that they could keep those, but loose their special oozing abilities. The CK really needs a rewrite/clairification.

well, what I meant also was that the Forge isn't going to call an oozing ball of slime... at least not in my uni.

might be good for a comedy campaign, hence the Cosmic Chainsaw reference. you know some nitwit will have one sooner or later.

"Yeah, and it takes Cosmic Diesel !!!"

<rrrr, rrrrrrrrrr, rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr>

They arn't "oozing balls of slime." They are a legitimate race that are pretty cool. There is no reason why a Slurmph couldnt become a CK when a Kreegor can.

The Forge chooses who it will...regardless of warts,scales, or slime...All it seeks is the spirit of a champion!

gadrin wrote:well if your GM is running games based on scent for a Wulfen Cosmo-Knight then I think there's something else wrong.

"Yep! Solved the hole thing when I smelled the kidnapped princess' perfume, I did. Summoned my armor, my Cosmic Chainsaw and they surrendered right on the spot!"

sounds like darn good role play to me. use all your options. the ability to tell people apart by scent would be a valuable tool in tracking people and investigating events.

after all, "if all you have is a hammer...."

a slurmph C-K wouldn't lose the telepathic communication or it's unique vision, because otherwise the being is blind and dumb. not very useful to the forge.

supernatural, psionic, and mystical abilities are lost because the forge's gift replaces them. some biological ones, like winged flight, spitting acid, and so on are probably also gone, since the C-K's biology is altered. but the forge won't remove important aspects like senses and what not.

This is an interesting thread. I think they could use a few more additions as mentioned by others to the OCC, but a complete rewrite, I'm not so sure on that one. I'd have to think on it for awhile to give a better response.

Oh and yes, I am also waiting on Braden's "Starships of the Three Galaxies" too!

I guess a canine CK (wolfen for example) if losing the racial
super-smell, counts as a handycapped individual among
his race (kinda like color-blind or even deaf people among
humans).

And that is probably not something the Forge would do.

But since a Quick-Flex without his "agility" bonuses would
probably the social equivalent of a limp among humans...
...a big can of worms.

-----
My solution for this problem is on the GM level:
I simply tell the players what power level I would like
for my story. If the CK with autododge exceeds it, then
sorry, no Quick-Flex CK in this story (at least not as a
PC)...

Adios
KLM

I'm going to allow racial traits for CK.

I know! People seem pretty together on this topic! I'm glad there is no arguing!

Rogue Scientist wrote:I think the exclusion of racial traits was done to make life easy on the GM. I would probably leave it at GMs discretion, much like the entire class is supposed to be. In this case, they chose to just make it simple and exclude everything. I mean, how long do you think it would be before every CK your players rolled was a Quik-Flex (auto-dodge) or some other cheesy variation? Demi-God CKs, anyone?

Personally, I'd allow stuff like enhanced sense of smell and even minor/major psionics (sensitive only, probably) if it was a crucial racial trait and I didn't feel it unbalanced my game. Racial magic abilities and physical/healing/super psionics would be a no-go, as would anything else really cheesy.

~RS

I've never seen a quick-flex cosmo-knight yet, and demi-gods can't become cosmo-knights... they're supernatural, which the Forge evidently considers a no-no.

Well for the most part we agree!

KLM wrote:I guess a canine CK (wolfen for example) if losing the racial
super-smell, counts as a handycapped individual among
his race (kinda like color-blind or even deaf people among
humans).

And that is probably not something the Forge would do.

But since a Quick-Flex without his "agility" bonuses would
probably the social equivalent of a limp among humans...
...a big can of worms.

-----
My solution for this problem is on the GM level:
I simply tell the players what power level I would like
for my story. If the CK with autododge exceeds it, then
sorry, no Quick-Flex CK in this story (at least not as a
PC)...

Adios
KLM

Not really... if you read the description, you use whatever set of stats is the HIGHER.
So if a cosmo-knight gets "x"d6 to a stat while a race gets "y"d6 to a stat, if "y" is higher than "x" you use "y".
Which means you could have an oni cosmo-knight with a PB of 22 or whatever...

gadrin wrote:easy way to spot a munchkin:

if he isn't satisfied with the stats for the Cosmo-Knight OCC in the book... and I'm not talking about the mistakes.

I'm not a munchkin, more of a rules lawyer.
I read and comprehend how the OCCs are supposed to work according to RAW (Rules As Written); I only house-rule things which aren't covered by RAW, and do so in a logical fashion.

But each person can interpret things differently. That is the reason on constitutional issuses that can take years to decide and still they differ from person to person.

gadrin wrote:

Vrykolas2k wrote:

gadrin wrote:easy way to spot a munchkin:

if he isn't satisfied with the stats for the Cosmo-Knight OCC in the book... and I'm not talking about the mistakes.

I'm not a munchkin, more of a rules lawyer.
I read and comprehend how the OCCs are supposed to work according to RAW (Rules As Written); I only house-rule things which aren't covered by RAW, and do so in a logical fashion.

I wasn't talking about you that's why I didn't quote you

it was a general observation. I'm sorry you jumped to a conclusion.

Munchkin Whiner for instance: ran a PW game had a guy play a Silhouette. Couldn't play a book Silhouette, had to be a Silhouette Temporal Wizard so he could have 400+ PPE. I didn't mind. He complained that Silhouettes didn't have Nightvision when they should. I agreed. So I gave him the equivalent of Nightvision psionic power. My reasoning being it's a small point. He then went on and on that Silhouettes should get at least 4000 feet range and... if it had been a face-to-face game I'd have smacked his munchkin azz. Some gamers are just jerks.

I agree entirely... thought you were replying to me due to the fact your post was right after mine.
Sorry.
Although I do think silhouettes should have more flexibility in what they can do, I've never had anyone want to play one so far. Still, I find it odd they don't have nightvision, but allow them to take spells that give them the same benefit. And of course they can naturally shadow meld.