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How do you a treat Natural One on a d20 rolll in your Palladium games? Please explain choice, if you don't mind. Thanks to all in advance for your input.

Big Bob............................

adorabilly wrote:a nat 1 is a critical fumble.

I could not find that a nat 1 is a "fumble" rule of any kind in GMG or RUE or RRPG books. Like the rules for nat 1 fumble are in other RPGs. If I am wrong about this, someone please correct me with book and page number.

This, is why I have asked. Is the nat 1 critical fumble just a "carry over" from other games? I cannot see new out of the box high tech weapons/equipment having a chance of failing 5% each time it is used. Maybe Black Market items would or even greater chance of failure.

Just some thoughts.

I choose "other."

It's a failure, and usually a "critical failure," however the severity of which is dependent entirely on such criteria as the difficulty of the attempted action, the setting, and what is (or is not) going on around the character.

G.M. discretion and common sense come into play heavily.

~ Josh

It all depends. In my game if I cannot decide just how things are going to go I use my "Dice of Fate". Basically I roll percentile and the higher the number, the better the outcome, and the lower, the worse. So when someone rolls a natural 1, I'll often roll my DoF and a number lower than 25 usually results in, friendly's being shot at, stuff blowing up, etc...

This way here it's not a guaranteed screw up on a natural 1. On the same note, I sometimes apply this to the Natural 20 also. A roll above 75% can sometimes result in additional damage...etc.

A roll of a natural 1 in my games is always a critical fumble. If the players want a critical success with every 20, they get a critical fumble with every 1.

It's not necessarily always the equipment.

For example, while playing Robotech, one player unloaded his GU-11 into a Zentraedi foot soldier. He rolled a 1. I asked him to roll again. He rolled a 14 or something. Since the Zentraedi was engaged in hand to hand with another character, I had that character roll a dodge. He failed and took the full melee burst of the GU-11.

Now, I wouldnt let a character die from that, but it was fun to watch them argue afterwards. "You shot me!" "No. I was shooting at the Zentraedi. You just jumped in the way of my bullets."

MikeM

I chose other Bigbob. Whay I generally do what a player rolls a natural one is to call it an automatic miss or failure. Then there's a fifty/fifty chance they fumble... or worse. Usually any roll below a fifty means something bad has happened to the character, above a fifty means just a failed roll, which can be bad enough depending on the circumstances.

As far as I can tell there is no critical fumble rule in RUE it was a carryover rule, like a perception roll. Apparently perceptions are allowed in RUE from what I've heard...though in my mind skills and or common sense/storyline should account for perception rolls which i find highly unnecessary and detrimental but that's a different point.

My feeling is a 1 is just a roll. A charters level of expertise in any skill or combat action should be sufficient that they cannot make a critical fumble, their training at the very least prevents them from making massive blunders, they just may fail to perform the action or get a wrong result.

And in the case of combat if they roll a 1 and have bonues high enough they may still hit their enemy. The only automatic miss is a roll of 4 of less with bonuses. In my mind this shows that the characters are greater than ordinary so after the first few levels they NEVER automatically miss. And if you think about it this kind of view is pretty much in line with the whole heroic game concept.

Also, say both PC and NPC rolled a natural 1 but the PC has higher bonuses. in a fist fight do they both just stand there gasping for air? I suppose you could do it that way but it would make more sense for one to strike/parry/dodge the other based on bonuses.

If a person did not have the skill in question or had no HtH skill or Martial Art THEN a critical fumble might deserve a place in the action, say if they were rolling a d100 against their stat or fighting when they had no hth combat skill (which is possible with some classes such as Rogue Scholar), in fact maybe it should. But these are the exception and for purposes of this poll I voted for choice 5.

Thanks, adorabilly for the RUE references. I knew about the one 1-4 w/bonuses was a miss not the other.

i treat a 1 as a critical failure too. i always thought it was officially the rule though...must have been a carryover from another game when i was just starting out, because i have been playing pf for a loooong time and always thought it was official.

i had a player who was trying to save against a foreign drug which was mixed with her regular tobacco roll a one...she fell from the carriage she was riding, the pipe slipped in between her gums and cheek and ripped out of her face just under the eye. she also lost a tooth and 1 point of pb lol...she still hates me for that.

I chose "other".

The way I play it depends on the seriousness of the situation (is this is just some slap-happy bar fight or a fight to the death with the main villain?) and the mood of the evening around the table. If things are going really bad for the group, and it's a serious situation, I may have the shot miss its intended target, but hit something else that may or may not do good for the group as a whole.

Or, if things are a bit lighter (or I'm just in a bad mood that night ) I'll have the players around the table pick numbers and I'll roll to see who gets hit with the errant blast/arrow/punch/whatever. My players have all gotten into the habit that when anyone rolls a Nat 1, they all start yelling "No, don't shoot me!" and throwing things at the person who rolled the 1.

I had to choose Criticle fumble simply due to logic Nat 20 is a Criticle Dammage/Success an there are TWO sides to every coin as it were . Of course I also wanted to choose other for the fact that I as GM determine what exactly if any repricussions are involved now with said nat 1 roll . So its really a hard choice to make but I stuck with the Fumble .

-Lenwen.

MikeM wrote:A roll of a natural 1 in my games is always a critical fumble. If the players want a critical success with every 20, they get a critical fumble with every 1.

That's how we treat it too. We went as far as creating a fumble table to determine the result of the fumble:

1 Roll save vs. weapon breakage.
2 Lucked out!
3 Stumble: -2 strike/parry/dodge next action.
4 Lost grip on weapon. 1 action to retrieve.
5 Lose automatic parry next action.
6 Stinger, bad grip. 1 pt. SDC damage.
7 Trip and fall. Next action to get up.
8 Pulled muscle; -2 strike/parry/dodge for 1d4 days.
9 Weapon stuck. 1 action + roll<PS on d20 to free
10 Stumble. -1 strike/parry/dodge next action.
11 Lucked out!
12 Next attack against will do double PS bonus dmg.
13 Lose automatic parry for the round.
14 Leave yourself wide open, opponent gets free attack
15 Trip and fall. Next action to get back up.
16 Lucked out!
17 Hit teammate (if applicable).
18 Lost grip of weapon. 1 round to retrieve.
19 Something in eye, -3 s/p/d. 1d4 actions to remove.
20 Lucked out!

We use it just for PF, so it would obviously need to be adjusted for use in any other game.

Ø

Nat 20 = coolness
Nat 1 = disaster

This makes 1 out of 10 rolls more interesting than the other 9 out of 10. It creates that cool moment of excitement and panic. Who hasn't hooted and hollered with the Big Bad rolls a Nat 1 and blows up his minion instead? That's great fun.

The crit / fumble system come up surprisingly often (even at 10%) so you are sure to have a few wild moments with each RPG session.

I had a table that had a whole bunch of options that could happen, depending on the weapon being used, from friendly fire to simple jamming. I can't seem to be able to find it now though.

The Beast, here's one I made up a long while back.

RANDOM WEAPON’S FAILURE TABLES

Hand to Hand Melee
Roll 1d20 Result
1 Fall on weapon take appropriate damage. Hand attack, break arm in fall. (GM apply penalties)
2 Suffers a hand wound, causing anything in hand to be dropped reflexively.
3 Tripped, fall down. loose initiative
4 Bad parry, arm stunned 50% chance loosing weapon in hand.
5 Opponent throws/ wind blows dirt/mud in face/face plate. Loose next action.
6 Distracted for that one moment, got clobbered. Stunned for 1d4 melees. Loose initiative.
7 Step in slippery dung. Roll balance check at –30%. Loose initiative.
8 Last hit is catching up with you, blurred vision at –5 to strike for 1d4 melees.
9 Agitated hornet’s nest (in ground or tree). Hornets are attacking all in 20-foot radius.
10 Hand held weapon is stuck in opponent or his gear. If hand only attack, broke 1d4 fingers on impact.
11 Swing so hard with weapon/fist you pull your shoulder muscle. (GM apply penalties)
12 Your anger got the best of you. You go into a rage attacking all living creatures, friends and foes alike, in a 20-foot radius for 1d4+2 melees. –3 to strike, dodge, parry.
13 Swung so hard and missed, weapon went flying 1d20+5 feet away. Hand attack, dislocated elbow
14 Just plain fell flat on your backside. Loose initiative.
15 Bad sprain, lose use of random limb for 1d6 days.
16 Stepped on uneven ground, stumbled, fell with leg under you, dislocated knee. (GM apply penalties)
17 You are just plain having a bad day/run of luck. All your actions for the rest of this encounter are at –5/-20% as per appropriate roll.
18 Swing so hard with weapon/fist you miss and spin around. Back is now to opponent.
19 Your nose begins to get that irresistible itch. Loose one attack/action to scratch.
20 Your attack missed so bad your opponent gets an immediate free attack that you cannot dodge, parry or roll with.

Automatic Handguns, Rifles & Machine Guns Magazine Fed
Roll1D20 Result
1 Explodes
2 Magazine Fell out
3 Did Not Chamber a Round
4 Barrel Splits
5 Hand Guards/Stock Break & Fall Off
6 Fires, Nothing Happened
7 Dropped It
8 Failed to Load It
9 Trigger Stuck
10 Jammed
11 Falls Apart
12 Muzzle End Explodes
13 Trigger Breaks
14 Wrong Caliber Ammunition
15 Forgot the Safety Was On
16 Sneezed Violently as Trigger Was Pulled
17 Loaded With Blanks
18 Hammer/Slide Stuck
19 Ammunition is No Good
20 Out of Control, Fires ALL Ammunition

Revolver Handguns
Roll1D20 Result
1 Explodes
2 Cylinder Fell Open, Bullets Fell Out
3 Cylinder Did Not Rotate
4 Barrel Splits
5 Hand Guards Break & Fall Off
6 Fires, Nothing Happened
7 Dropped It
8 Failed to Load It
9 Trigger Stuck
10 Hammer Jammed
11 Falls Apart
12 Muzzle End Explodes
13 Cylinder Falls Off
14 Wrong Caliber Ammunition
15 Barrel Falls Off
16 Sneezed Violently as Trigger Was Pulled
17 Loaded With Blanks
18 Trigger Breaks
19 Ammunition is No Good
20 Dropped It and Fires on Impact. Chance to hit..??

All Bolt Action Weapons
Roll1D20 Result
1 Explodes
2 Bolt Breaks
3 Did Not Chamber a Round
4 Barrel Splits
5 Stock Falls Off
6 Fires, Nothing Happened
7 Dropped It
8 Failed to Load It
9 Trigger Stuck
10 Bolt Jammed
11 Falls Apart
12 Muzzle End Explodes
13 Stock Breaks
14 Wrong Caliber Ammunition
15 Barrel Falls Off
16 Sneezed Violently as Trigger Was Pulled
17 Loaded With Blanks
18 Trigger Breaks
19 Ammunition is No Good
20 Bolt Lever Broke off

Handheld Belt Fed Machine Guns
Roll1D20 Result
1 Explodes
2 Receiver Cover Pops Open
3 Belt Did Not Feed
4 Barrel Splits
5 Pistol Grip Breaks & Falls Off
6 Fires, Nothing Happened
7 Dropped It
8 Failed to Load It
9 Trigger Stuck
10 Belt Jammed
11 Falls Apart
12 Muzzle End Explodes
13 Belt Fell Out
14 Wrong Caliber Ammunition
15 Barrel Falls Off
16 Sneezed Violently as Trigger Was Pulled
17 Loaded With Blanks
18 Trigger Breaks
19 Ammunition is No Good
20 Out of Control, Fires ALL Ammunition

Tripod Mounted/Fixed Position Belt Fed Machine Guns
Roll1D20 Result
1 Explodes
2 Receiver Cover Pops Open
3 Belt Did Not Feed
4 Barrel Splits
5 Falls Off Tripod/Mount
6 Fires, Nothing Happened
7 Knocked It Over
8 Failed to Load It
9 Trigger Stuck
10 Belt Jammed
11 Falls Apart
12 Muzzle End Explodes
13 Belt Fell Out
14 Wrong Caliber Ammunition
15 Barrel Falls Off
16 Sneezed Violently as Trigger Was Pulled
17 Loaded With Blanks
18 Pistol Grip Breaks
19 Ammunition is No Good
20 Out of Control, Fires ALL Ammunition

All Hand Grenades (Live, Unless Noted Otherwise)
Roll1D20 Result
1 Explodes Immediately
2 Threw Straight Up 1D20 Feet
3 Fell Short of Target, No Damage to Target
4 Pin Already Pulled, Snagged on Your Equipment
5 Dropped it, Rolled 1D20 Feet to Left
6 A Playful Dog in Area Brings it Back to You
7 Threw Pulled Pin, Kept Grenade
8 Dropped it, Rolled 1D20 Feet to Front
9 Went Long of Target, No Damage to Target
10 Fell Apart & Explodes Only Half Damage
11 Dropped it, Rolled 1D20 Feet to Right
12 Was Thrown/Bounced Back to You
13 Partial Dud Only 25% Damage
14 Threw with Pin in (Not Live)
15 Dropped it, Rolled 1D20 Feet to Rear
16 Sneezed Violently as You Threw it
17 Fell Apart (Not Live)
18 Grenade Fizzles, No Explosion
19 Dropped it at Your Feet
20 Dud

Laser Type Weapons
Roll1D20 Result
1 Explodes Immediately
2 Pulled Trigger and Power Source Drains to Zero
3 Barrel End Explodes
4 Did Not Cycle to Fire
5 Barrel Splits
6 Pistol Grip/Stock Break & Fall Off
7 Fires, Nothing Happened
8 Dropped It
9 Failed to Charge/Load It
10 Trigger Stuck
11 Jammed
12 Falls Apart
13 Fails to Fire, Power Overload, Explodes in..??
14 Trigger Breaks
15 Pulled Trigger and Barrel Melts
16 Forgot the Safety Was On
17 Sneezed Violently as Trigger Was Pulled
18 Blinding Flash of Light, Weapon Gone
19 Pulled Trigger, Heating Up Quickly to Red Hot
20 Out of Control, Fires ALL Charges

That's pretty close to what I had, only the majority of my tables used a d6, and just plain missing was a possibility (it was also the default in case of a roll that wouldn't make sence like friendly fire when you're the only PC around).

Mikal wrote:Mechanically, thematically, AND because the fact it is a game that's supposed to be fun, critical fumbles are childish, idiotic, and just plain wrong.

I think that a game where nothing potentially catastrophic happens the the characters just because it's "supposed to be fun" is exceedingly lame.

Do what you want in your game, but lose the attitude when discussing your opposing position. If GMs like critiical fumbles and it doesn't disrupt their games, it's just as valid as what the rules state.

Ø

I treat it as "Other".
Sometimes, it is a catatrophically bad result (sort of like arguing with Killer Cyborg).
Sometimes it is a hilarious bad result (Like when Marrowlight and I argue).
Sometimes it's just bad (like when they argue at the U.N.).

Mikal wrote:Because frankly, the critical 20 effect doesn't do anything that special, and an automatic miss of a 1-4 MORE then balances out the double damage effect of a single nat 20.

It may be borne out in your experience, but not in mine. And if the effect of a natural 20 isn't that special to begin with, then why not eliminate it? Why not just use a straight strike roll + bonus vs. parry roll + bonus and ignore misses and crits? A character ought to miss once in a while (nat 1-4) but not an occasional really horrible miss?

Mikal wrote:Especially since, at higher levels, a player will be rolling up to 8 or more attacks depending on their abilities. Does it REALLY make sense that Lord Gothos, the great Juicer Warrior of doom, fumbles his laser pistol every 30 seconds, or his juicer chainsaw continually runs out of gas?

Really. Every 30 seconds? Sarcasm aside, how many times in a given session are your players rolling natural 1s? One might get a greater or lesser number of nat 1s (or nat 20s) in any given session, but I'm guessing we can agree that the two extremes aren't going to happen any more often than any other roll (given my admittedly limited understanding of statistics or what have you).

Mikal wrote:A natural 1 is treated as whatever the rulebook says.
. . .
Mechanically, thematically, AND because the fact it is a game that's supposed to be fun, critical fumbles are childish, idiotic, and just plain wrong.

Why are fumbles "wrong"? Because they aren't in the rules as published? By this logic, all house rules are wrong. What's your position on house rules? Should a GM should be able to determine whether a rule can be added, modified or outright ignored if he deems it necessary or advantageous to his/her game? If you consider house rules wrong, explain why, please.

Are fumbles "wrong" because they somehow make the game less fun? How exactly do they adversely effect how much fun the game is? We've used critical fumbles for years and no one's ever had a character die as a result. No one's ever accidentally chopped off his own head, or tripped and fallen to her death off a 500 foot cliff. Nobody likes rolling a natural 1, but it's an accepted rule, and NPCs are also affected by it, so that seems to balance out effectively for our group. Anyway, nothing has ever happened as a result of a fumble that ruined a session or campaign. In fact, in my experience, the fumbles have added to the fun of our sessions by giving us something to laugh about. I think the occasional arrow in the keister courtesy of a teammate is pretty hilarious.

Not sure what you mean by "thematically." Because the game is supposed to be heroic and larger-than-life, the characters should be above such a human failing as occasionally screwing something up disastrously? Simply missing the occasional strike is enough? It's contrary to the spirit of the game to really blow it sometimes? Please clarify.

As to refuting your assertion that fumbles are "childish" and "idiotic," I can't. I have no idea why you've used such terms.

Ø

1 - 4 is only an automatic miss in long range combat. In HtH you only miss if the result is 4 or less after bonuses.

1-4 with bonuses in HTH is a miss.
1-8 with bonuses in Ranged combat is a miss.
Natural 1 is always a miss.

All this according to RUE, 2nd printing.

The Beast wrote:1 - 4 is only an automatic miss in long range combat. In HtH you only miss if the result is 4 or less after bonuses.

I have had some success House-Ruling this to be "all rolls 1-4 miss or fail, and DO NOT ADD any bonuses if you roll 1-4".
It cuts down the Bonus Whores.
Otherwise, given the "average" of bonuses to strike/parry/dodge/shoot/whatever, no one would miss because the bonuses are too high.

This has had the effect of making it possible to miss even for the more bonus heavy characters (hey anyone can fail, even if they are a 20th Level Mega-Juicer-Demigod-Mutant).

However, if your players aren't heavy-duty bonus whores, then this may not be of use to you.

...And I take my coffee with International Delight flavored creamer. I prefer the Amaretto flavor.

Please stop having your thugs drag me into the street to shoot me. It creates a disturbance in my workplace.

A natural roll of 1 to 4 is always a miss (I provided the citation earlier in this thread from RUE page 340) it also states
the attacker must roll 5 or higher to strike his opponent.

Looking at strike on page 347.
Anyone attempting to hit an opponent must roll to strike. As with all combat rolls, a roll to strike is made with a twenty sided die.

It says nothing about adding in a +to strike in the definition of a strike. So therefore the above definition means if you roll from 1 to 4 you automatically MISS
Even if you have a +8 to strike.

That is my interpretation, but I would recommend checking against the rules one more time (perhaps cross referrence other Palladium Books), because I'm fairly (but not 100%) certain that you add your bonuses, and if the total is 5 or more, you hit.

My personal house rule is pretty much what you've stated, in order to stamp out bonus whoring in my games, but I could swear that canonically you get to add your bonuses first (which makes missing a lot less frequent).

Sentinel wrote:

A natural roll of 1 to 4 is always a miss (I provided the citation earlier in this thread from RUE page 340) it also states
the attacker must roll 5 or higher to strike his opponent.

Looking at strike on page 347.
Anyone attempting to hit an opponent must roll to strike. As with all combat rolls, a roll to strike is made with a twenty sided die.

It says nothing about adding in a +to strike in the definition of a strike. So therefore the above definition means if you roll from 1 to 4 you automatically MISS
Even if you have a +8 to strike.

That is my interpretation, but I would recommend checking against the rules one more time (perhaps cross referrence other Palladium Books), because I'm fairly (but not 100%) certain that you add your bonuses, and if the total is 5 or more, you hit.

Page 63 HU = STEP 2 If the result is a four or less (counting bonuses), the attacker misses.

Page 339 RUE = STEP 2 If the result is a four or less (counting bonuses), the attacker misses.

Thank who for playing?

adorabilly wrote:GA... according to RUE page 346 a roll of a 1 is always a miss regardless of bonus's. No matter how high your strike bonus's are.

Thank you

A miss, not a fumble not a life altering event just a miss, a failure nothing more. Thats my vote.

adorabilly wrote:oops... you are correct. (mind you it shows up in 1 line) where you have the a roll of 1 to 4 is always a miss (and bonus's are not mentioned again, in like 6 places on pages 339 and 340 in RUE). And it doesn't show up in teh definition of a strike.

But I will still take my consolation prize. Because a roll of a 1 is ALWAYS a miss (RUE pg 346) regardless of the bonus's.

The way Step 2 is written leads me to believe they mean after bonuses whenever they say "A roll of..."

In my experience a 1 is a failure, always. No matter how big your bonuses a 1 is still a failure (unless its for a percentile roll, then its a critical success).

A 1 is not always a critical falure. The reason I say this is that I do not like having the single step from a 2 (which can be modified to a success) down to 1 (which cannot be modified to success) automatically end in some horrible failure.

Upon rolling a 1 in combat I have the player roll again and the higher the number the less trouble their failure causes. A 20 being nothing bad happens to another 1 being that they hit/shoot themself doing the max damage for the attack. 19 down to 2 have varrious effects that have never been set in stone though as an example a roll of 10-11 would result in the attack going wild and either hitting a grp member/hostage/piece of potentially critical equipment for 1/2 normal damage.

Oops your shot went past the dude you aimed at, through the door and hit the e-clip charger mounted in the enemy vehicle. Guess you wont get a free refill after this battle.

To clairify the rules some more, on page 340 of RUE it does state that it is optional for the GM to assign something bad happening as a result of a miss. Personally I'd much rather have a pre-made table to roll on rather than letting the GM make something up. I am begining to like Thyinser's ( ? ) idea of rolling a d20 again to see exactly how bad the fumble turns out though.

"...and the universe is laughing behind your back."

Last night as I was playing a lvl 1 T-Archer I Fumbled a roll for called shot ( got a 1 ) an low an behold not only did I miss the CS Major I was trying to snipe they found out exactly where I was at leading them back to the PC's grp an well needless to say a Bigade of Cs soilders against 6 player characters mass pain ensued . My Grp survived thier initial assault mostly due to pure luck , but after the 8th meleeit was only 2 PC's still alive . Mind melter and Cyber knight . They immediatly killed the Cyber Knight and they punished the Mind Melter for mixing with D Bee's an then killed him too . End of the Session everyone looked at me like it was MY fault for some reason ( god only knows ) and They collectivly said I am banned from playing a T-Archer again .

just a short story of how a Botched roll did effect my PC grp

-Lenwen.

I voted "Just a roll, w/bonuses can still accomplish act at hand."

I just don't think it's a special roll.

Just a roll, w/bonuses can still accomplish act at hand.

Although it's been a critical failure at times. Some rules change with each campaign.

sasha wrote:

Just a roll, w/bonuses can still accomplish act at hand.

Although it's been a critical failure at times. Some rules change with each campaign.

Like every time we play Rummy or whatever that game is.

I treat a natural 1 - 4 as an opportunity to have fun with the PC. I have created extensive tables for various versions of the classic fumble, to include SLASH, BASH, PUNCTURE and COMPLETELY RANDOM.

From 1% - 100%, each % entry has different effects.

It's creative, fun and truly, truly TERRIBLE. However, it's not all bad. IF you (the PC) are lucky enough to roll the *right* number, your fumble might miraculously turn into a CRITICAL!!!