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Why on Earth would you want to make such a thing?
And, having decided to make it, why would you want to balance it?

I need a bit more to go on here.

Dragoon26 wrote::erm: Because there is all sorts of blade mages, sword mages, and weapon mages but no gun mage.

Where?

Dragoon26 wrote::erm: Because there is all sorts of blade mages, sword mages, and weapon mages but no gun mage. And the reason for me wanting it balanced is because almost all the mages are either overpowered or underpowered

Actully those type were catching up to the gun mage sorts. There were TWO TW varients that were gun specilists. I belive they were in rifter 2.

One was a TW that used his TW gadgits to mimic a gunslinger, and the other was a 'GunBunny".

Killer Cyborg wrote:Why on Earth would you want to make such a thing?
And, having decided to make it, why would you want to balance it?

I need a bit more to go on here.

Oh, lay off of him. I've seen ideas much more overpowered, and no one has said anything. I know that it was the word Rune (ic) that made everyone gasp, but if you read his post you can see all he want is a mage with a focus on firearms.

I would look at the Battle Magus from Federation of Magic and the Gun-Slinger from New West for inspiration on mundane weapon skills for your O.C.C. As for using the gun to cast spell or as a focus, you might want to develop a bunch of custom Combat Magic (see Rifts Merc Adventures) that enhance firearms. I can easily see a mage developing a spell that enhances damage (like the Power Weapon spell), or increases rate of fire (like the Speed Weapon spell) that applies only to firearms. There already is a Marksman spell that adds a bonus to strike (see Rifts Merc Adventures). You could also limit the gun-mage's spells casting like a Techno-Wizard; spells cast at 1/2 the mage's level when not using his gun as a focus. I'd also limit what spells the mage could take to those that could possible come out of a gun (I could see Magic Net being possible, but not Carpet of Adhesion), along with a few spells that almost every mage seems to have access (such as Armor of Ithan).

Conversely, instead of making him a spell caster make the O.C.C. a variation of Diabolist. Have the O.C.C. apply runes and wards to his weapon, granting it bonuses as the O.C.C. advances. You would have to put strict limits on it though, like it's magic only works for a member of this O.C.C. and for everyone else it is just a mundane (or mostly mundane) weapon. Of course this might be a little to much like the Gun-Mage from Iron Kingdoms, as they not only cast spells from their weapon but also apply runes to increase the weapon's power.

Can't help you. Though I would not use the word RUNE in the title, it implies that that the mage uses/makes Rune Weapons, which are very specific category of weapons.

Dragoon26 wrote:Ok I will Change name to Gun Sorcerer which is a type of mage so it is no longe the Runic Gun Mage but the only thing The Gun Sorcerer can make is the Rune Bullets which he or she is able to use with the gun they are bonded with

Enhancing only the bullets would be an interesting way to go. You might want the bullets to act as a variation on the Talisman spells, each bullet would hold an offensive spell (such as Fireball, Energy Bolt, Magic Net, etc.) that has been pre-cast into it. When fired the spell is release. (see previous post for my other suggestions).

You also might want to change the name from Rune Bullet to something like Ward Bullet (only better). For some reason a few people on the boards have a visceral reaction when ever the word Rune is applied to a modern weapon. They tend to forget that advanced weapons and rune magic have both been around in the Megaverse for about the same time. I wouldn't be unreasonable to think that some god or other greater being who knew the secrets of rune magic and had knowledge of technology would figure out a way to combine the two. Of course such items would be even rarer than normal rune weapons, but I digress.

Dragoon26 wrote::ok: Yes I was thinking of the blade mage from the Rifter and the other two are from the Great OCC/RCC Net book and other OCC/RCC Netbooks out there for rifts. So if you guys an gals would be so kind as to help me created this mage I will be so kind as to not make another off the wall mage that uses guns as and instrument to deliever their spells.

Ah!

Well, I'm unfamiliar with those, so I'll be of limited help here.

JTwig wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:Why on Earth would you want to make such a thing?
And, having decided to make it, why would you want to balance it?

I need a bit more to go on here.

Oh, lay off of him. I've seen ideas much more overpowered, and no one has said anything. I know that it was the word Rune (ic) that made everyone gasp, but if you read his post you can see all he want is a mage with a focus on firearms.

Actually, it was the combination of three words.
A "Rune Gun Mage" sounds like a gunslinging wizard with a Rune Gun.
So he's a great fighter, a wizard, AND he has a magic item of legendary power.... Doesn't sound balanced to me; it sounds deliberately unbalanced, like he wants the character to do everything really well ( except psionics).

I have absolutely no objections to the idea of a Rune Gun, but the idea that there would be enough Run Guns sitting around the megaverse that there would be an OCC that deals with them seemed a bit.... bad.

Of course, that was just my initial impression based off of those three words.
Which was why I asked for more information.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

JTwig wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:Why on Earth would you want to make such a thing?
And, having decided to make it, why would you want to balance it?

I need a bit more to go on here.

Oh, lay off of him. I've seen ideas much more overpowered, and no one has said anything. I know that it was the word Rune (ic) that made everyone gasp, but if you read his post you can see all he want is a mage with a focus on firearms.

Actually, it was the combination of three words.
A "Rune Gun Mage" sounds like a gunslinging wizard with a Rune Gun.
So he's a great fighter, a wizard, AND he has a magic item of legendary power.... Doesn't sound balanced to me; it sounds deliberately unbalanced, like he wants the character to do everything really well ( except psionics).

I have absolutely no objections to the idea of a Rune Gun, but the idea that there would be enough Run Guns sitting around the megaverse that there would be an OCC that deals with them seemed a bit.... bad.

Of course, that was just my initial impression based off of those three words.
Which was why I asked for more information.

Didn't mean to single you out, was just giving you a hard time.

Dragoon26 wrote:So what you are saying is just take out rune out of the equation and that would be ok and I was thinking of using pre-rift weapons and post rift weapons for the focus and I do like the Idea of the ammo being rare but I was also thinking that the Gun Sorcerer would make his or her own ammo for the weapons he or she would be using

I think it would be cool if they had to use normal S.D.C. weapons, especially revolvers. The only thing special would be their ability to channel spells through it, or the magic ammo they created. They could have a standard P.P.E. cheap round that did something like 2d6 M.D., and effected creatures normally immune to mundane weapons (like Vampires and Were-Creatures), and additional special rounds (ones that shot Fireballs, Lightning Bolts, etc.) that would cost more P.P.E. to make.

I'm actually surprised we haven't seen magic ammo in the books already, there has been magic grenades and missiles, you would think that magic bullet (other than those under the effect of the Echant Weapons spell) would be a no brainer for most Rifts players.

Doesn't one of the Knights of the white Rose carry a pair of rune-guns, (at work, can't check..) just out of interest?

Dragoon26 wrote:I'm sorry but there are no such Dwarves as the Nuhr Dwarves in the Coalition Navy or the Whole intire Rifts system

You are wrong.

The Nuhr are on pagea 122-123 of Coalition Navy. They reappeared on pages 149-151 of WB 30 D-Bees of North America.

I've given page cites. Ball's in your court.

If you get a chance, rent the Anime Outlaw Star. The main character, Gene, uses a gun that is exactly what you are talking about.

Also check out this article for ideas: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_gun

Happy Hunting.

Dragoon26 wrote:Sorry for doubting you but when I looked I didn't find this Dwarf but yes they have their own rune guns but these guns I am talking about are not rune weapons to begin with they become rune weapons when inscribing the runes on the weapons and only the gun mage is able to use it to it's fullest potential.

Gives a little lesson about rune weapons for the topic poster.

Rune weapons trap and bind a Supernatural Beings such as Gods, Demons, & Alien Intels, to to the weapons to give them their powers. This is why anyone with the knowage holds it as a close secret and why any SN that find out that someone who knows, dies.

Kewl IDEA, but to kick the Battle Magus's butt, you have to see, again, the
Warborn of Rifter 8.....also, I had a friend that put the Ward spell on burst/
single shots of C-5's/Boomgun/whatever. We limited it to 1 or 2 wards/3
shots. the 2 ward limit is for the Ritual. A Diabolist/Gun mage would be
totally kewl if ya could figure out how to use Super-Glue on a bullet.
Diabolists usually use Rabbit's skin glue for affixing Wards/Runes. It
wouldn't be too Munchie if you didn't use Sharpshooting skills like the
Warborn/Baby. Most ppl on this board think that the Warborn/Baby is way
munchie, but Palladium is basically munchie anyway (it's been said
before).

I'm familiar with the Iron Kingdoms RPG and play warmaching on occasion. I like the class and have read a whole bunch on the idea. I love the idea of techno wizards using a gun or other technological device as a focus and have thought about bringing it into the RIFTS world in some form or another. I'm currently trying to figure out how I want to fit it in with the flavor of the world, and have been thinking about using a variety of techno wizard weapons found in various books. I say just try a couple of ways to flesh it out and make it your own. Use the gun mage as a base and just keep trying other unique and new ways to make it work and see where it goes for you. Thats just me, because no matter how random the world of RIFTS is, I HATE direct ports from other games and intellectual properties.

Let us see it when you're done, OK?

I have to say that the idea of a Magic wielding gun-slinger was always something I wanted to play. The idea is good though...having this kind of OCC would greatly level the playing field in the Tech vs. Magic fights...if their abilities weren't progressive as far as range.

I agree that the whole Rune Gun Mage thing seems kinda muchy...Gun Sorcerer sounds much cooler anyways. I like the idea of this OCC crafting its own ammunition in a traditional way and empowering them with magic, as well as limiting them to old style weapons and not modern. Those two things right there could give them a whole lot of playability...

But if you link the spells directly to the bullets, that will give them an even longer range, wont it? Nightbane core book puts SDC rifle range between 1000-2000 ft, and an exceptional sniper rifle can have a 4000 ft range

Yeah, thats why I said that this kind of OCC would level the playing field...this mage wouldn't have the range issues that your typical mage would. This kind of OCC could have a base range based on the weapon type that they wield and as they level their range gradually increases until they have the same range as a standard weapon of choice. So, if this toon picked up a flintlock pistol who's effective range is 200ft then his base range could start at 10% (20ft) of that and every level increases by 10% of the maximum range of the weapon...when they hit level 10 the range would be the equivelent of the standard firearm of their choice and if they hit 15 then they would obviously have greater range capabilities than their weapon of choice. Just an idea though.

A sort of downside to choosing this OCC could be that they can't cast any defensive spells at all and are purely offensive in nature as well as limited to common magic only plus a handful of "custom spells." Personally I think that this would be a great addition to Rifts, especially for New West/Spirit West settings.

As a side note, if you used a charged bullet version, what kind of duration would you give it? Charge when firing? Holds a charge for several minutes, or hours? Or charge the bullet when created, so it remains permanent? (Last one could be based on Russian mystic kuznya, who can forge magic arrowheads)

Why not all 3?

Or at least the last two allowing for temporary on the spot imbueing as well as more permanent alternatives. Have the duration in minutes not hours. The permanent ones enchantments are consumed upon their use so that it makes it more practical; yeah sure you can fish the round out of the corpse and reforge it into a new bullet if enough material is left to throw into the pot with the rest of your materials.

Just an FYI incase no one is familiar with making homemade rounds of ammunition...theres a mold for the desired calibre of the the ammunition you intend to craft, a pot filled with the material your intending to melt down (typically lead), a stove or fire producing contraption of some sort (I use to use a small portable stove for camping). A ladel custom made to pour the molten metal into the mold (basically a sphere-like scoop with a hole cut into the top and a funnel which is placed on the top of the mold allowing the liquid to pour in with relative ease). Place the material in the pot and let it heat on the stove until its liquid (lead took about an hour or so till it was molten on the mini-stove). Use the ladel to scoop out the material and pour into the mold...after a minute or so you can release the lever holding the mold together and pop out the round to finish cooling (like another minute or so).

So the items in total would be....Lead, ladel, mold, camping stove, and a pot. Not a whole lot required to make your own bullets...

The whole process for myself to craft ammunition for a 45-70 Rifle (Quigly Down Under) took about an hour, maybe two, for heating and just a few minutes for the individual rounds...and thats if you do it the cheap way...the only thing you'd really need to find out how to make is primers, casings and powder after that. Just an FYI incase anyone needs some info on it.

While I the base idea is a cool starting point, when you attach the word "Runic" to anything, you throw out all attempts at keeping a balanced game (aside from the cannon issue of runic weapons cannot have moving parts, but that's easy enough to side step). Instead, work on a Gun Mage, talented in gunsmithing (the creation of one's own fire arms, weather traditional powder and bullet weapons, plasma weapons, lasers, or rail guns), and using magic though them. The idea that springs to mind is part Techno-Wizard, part Psi-Slinger and part Battle Magus. How the three come together in a cool way escapes me at the moment, and my plate is far too full to flesh anything out right now (and for a long time to come), hopefully that's a good jumping point for anyone who can run with it.

Well if you really want to make a mage class that uses guns as their primary weapon, just go into Rifter and find the Techno-Wizard Archer. Make a minor chance in that they use guns rather then bows and arrows.

I would though have to agree with everyone that it is not making a lot of sense. Even with a mage, the PPE used to shot most magic guns is rather high, and to make them would be three to four times that. I wont argue that it's a cool sounding idea, but it doesn't sound really practical.

Part of the problem here is most creators of Rune Weapons are NPC's. The basic thing that hasn't been addressed is that
this Rune Mage should be a NPC. Comments?

There won't be a way to balance it for all games. Some games are low power such as rogue scholars and cyberdocs, other games are high powered such as mega-juicers, cosmo-knights and machine people.

I've found the easiest way to balance a class is to make it, post it, then adjust damages and values as needed. People are more than willing to give their impressions of something that is posted, but as far as balancing goes, it would need to be balanced to each game in some manner, either through better gear, adjusting damages, ppe, etc.

LostOne wrote:There won't be a way to balance it for all games. Some games are low power such as rogue scholars and cyberdocs, other games are high powered such as mega-juicers, cosmo-knights and machine people.

I've found the easiest way to balance a class is to make it, post it, then adjust damages and values as needed. People are more than willing to give their impressions of something that is posted, but as far as balancing goes, it would need to be balanced to each game in some manner, either through better gear, adjusting damages, ppe, etc.

I find it easier to just balance by keeping players relative and just keeping foes at the right levels (I.E if you shower your players in rune weapons, give your enemies Greater Rune Weapons).