It's hard to be a mage

[GhostKnight]

I play a mage as a strategic and logistical support. In firefights I just give them a rifle and they play fire support.

[The Galactus Kid]

Magic Net. 'nuff said

[Malakai]

I'm currently playing a SHifter in a game, and I have found that a few spells are REALLY helpful in a fight (my group has a Jucier, Magebane, and Mind Melter who focuses on Telekinesis)

Mental Blast: Lower enough to get off in a single action, and powerful enought to drop many enemies in a couple shots, as well as give them penalties in the meantime. best part is the save - it's psychic, and even if they do, they still take half damage

Armor Bizzare: 50% more MDC than AoI per casting, and your enemies must roll vs HF EVERY ROUND - that helps you to be able to get off spells first. And best of all, it only takes a single action to cast.

Spinning Blades Yes, it takes a couple actions to cast, but it will parry for you, so you can focus on casting.

Fire Globe: a very handy spell - you can save these up - make one or two before you rest at night, and you'll have the P.P.E. back by morning, and they last for weeks. Getter than any grenade. Also, something that our Mind Melter has put to good use, is that you can accurately throw them using TK, and more than one at a time - try 5D6x10 per round for several rounds!

Carpet of Adhesion and/or Magic Net: These will help bring down fast, manueverable enemies, and make them prime targets for other spells. Also, if you can knock an enemy down, face first into the carpet, they're about as dead as dead can be

Energy Disruption: Yeah, it doesn't work on Armor or vehicles, but guess what, practically all of your enemies' weapons are electrical devices - and again, can be cast in a single action

House of Glass never used this one, but it could be a really effective way of getting to someone that keeps on pounding on you - cheap, single action casting, and once it takes effect, everytime they hit you, they get hit in turn. Now just keep up Armor Bizzare, and they won't last long.

Shadowmeld: This is your best friend at night - completely invisible, even to thermal, and you can still cast against you enemies (just don't do anything too flashy)

Hope these help[/b]

[Killer Cyborg]

I play a ley line walker. I know magic users are suppose to be strong eventually but I have been reading the spell of legends and they are strong but don't last that long.

Do you have a gun?
Do you have armor?
So what are you complaining about?

Get in there and shoot with the rest of the party.

If you fight against demons or enemies with high PE stats then save vs magic seems likely.

Yup.
Fortunately, with a lot of spells the targets either don't get a save, or they get a save but are still somewhat affected.

I just wish duration or casting time is reduced.

A house rule that I've suggested, but never played, is to give the range and duration of spells the same x100 boost that the damage gets.
If that's too much, try x10.

[Talavar]

Fear is a great low level spell that hasn't been mentioned yet. It's got a horror factor of 16 & can effect multiple targets. Great for buying time to do bigger spells.

[Marcethus]

While I am not familiar with the Rifts UE spellcasting rules alot of gms i have run with in the past use the PPE channelling and those rules make casters work very well imho and I have a 5th level True Atlantean Astral Mage that relies mostly on his spells and doesn't even wear armor whatsoever. Unless you count a chain shirt of wormwood resin armor but other than that he has only his spells and magical gear.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Now don't Amen me Gadrin, I'll slip into preacher mode and give a sermon on the evils of Glitterboy GMs and the lunacy of a mage ever using any technology at all. Then I'll start pointing fingers and Palladium will end up getting their feeling hurt because I'll put the blame squarely where it belongs.

Now you've got me curious on both, especially on the latter point.

[verdilak]

Well... gotta say, that my mages and psychics have beaten more bad guys, destroyed carefully planned out GM plans, ect. than their counterparts. Let me pick my spells, and my 1st level LLW can kick some ass.

(currently made up a 6th level LLW NPC for another campaign where my character wont arrive before the battle ends, so the GM wanted me and a few otehr players to play the NPC's.... and the Cyber Knight and TW Bionic Anti-Monster Dragon are gonna get their asses handed to them)

[Marcethus]

I have a 5th level True Atlantean Astral Mage that most people wouldn't even suspect is a mage. And he only has one energy weapon and one Automatic Pistol. The rest of his gear is carefully placed on his person so as not to attract attention. But when he unleashes his full power he is a force to be recokoned with.

[pblackcrow]

Talk to your GM about using PPE channeling rules in Rifter #21, I think.

[verdilak]

Talk to your GM about using PPE channeling rules in Rifter #21, I think.

PPE Channeling rules suck.

[The Galactus Kid]

There are many player that would disagree with you. I think that the P.P.E. channeling rules are pretty darn good. We used to use them in our game, but when R:UE came out, we didn't see a need to.

[Danger]

Talk to your GM about using PPE channeling rules in Rifter #21, I think.

PPE Channeling rules suck.

Because...?

[Danger]

Magic Net. 'nuff said

*cough* Carpet of Adhesion *cough*

[Jay05]

It's true, it's all about tactics. Have a couple fighter types guard the mage/mages, and the guy or gal can throw out some real stopping power, whether it be pure offence, or more defensive stop em in their tracks magic. No matter what, it's always good to have at least one spell slinger on your side.

[verdilak]

Talk to your GM about using PPE channeling rules in Rifter #21, I think.

PPE Channeling rules suck.

Because...?

Heh, you should know.

PPE Channeling doesnt work for all types of magic and mages. So when GM's use the rules and you are a mage who uses magic not supported by PPE Channeling, it sucks. Like a Cloudweaver Lyn-Srial. Granted, by 3rd level and higher, the spells are useful, but by following PPE Channeling rules, none of their spells can be cast in one turn at 1st level.

There are many player that would disagree with you. I think that the P.P.E. channeling rules are pretty darn good. We used to use them in our game, but when R:UE came out, we didn't see a need to.

Exactly, with RUE PPE Channeling isnt needed. (but some still use it)

Always interested in reasoned counterargument, though. What exactly isn't desirable in the PPE channeling rules?

Would have to say that it isnt viable really with RUE and that its vastly incomplete. Need to add in all the other types of magic to make it work, including wards, summoning, ect. In other words, needs to be updated badly and made to work withing RUE rules.

[runebeo]

One of our group is a Shifter and if she get surprised her most used defensive spell is blinding flash which can weaken an entire group's combat bonuses (-10) for a few rounds. So cheap, yet it can turn the tables on anyone who fails the save. If it fails try it again why not anyone who fails the save restarts the duration or continues the old spells duration if it was longer. This can give you time to setup or give you a chance to get some easy attacks while there blinded.

[csbioborg]

I find it funny that I rolled up a controller last night that ended up having a PS of 47 in the end. But that was after taking three martial arts. So now I have no worries about him getting in a few bouts of fisticuffs here and there. I didn't plan on rolling him up that way, but it just came out. Then again, controllers and their automatons do tend to be big targets on the battlefield.

how was he allowed to get three martial arts?

[talmor]

If a strong enemy wants to kill a mage poor mage can't do anything cause the mage needs time to set up plus time to activate and then the mages spells don't last that long. I just find the mage is weak on random encounters and adventuring when things just comes up. They are stronger when they have time to set up but even then if the planning is off by 5-10 min or more alot of the mages spells expire.

That's pretty much it exactly. While there are a variety of OCC's out there with different strengths and abilities, I've always been of the opinion that if at any point a magician is reduced to "blasting" his way out of a problem, he's already failed.

A mage should be patient, and careful, and use just enough power to get the results he or she desires. The mage doesn't dump an avalanche on his foes, he throws the first snowball that results in an avalanche. Planning and focus are the keys.

So, think about what you're trying to accomplish in any given encounter...is it an item, information, escape, resolution of a conflict? Shooting and killing are one way to accomplish this, but the great thing about magic users is they are far from the only way. A magic user has versatility even at the lowest levels that no other class can hope to match; think about what you want and how to best accomplish that, and understand that the half dozen guys in power armor are, at best, a distraction from your real goal.

However, if you find yourself constantly in random fights with the sole goal of "kill all the baddies"--well, this isn't really a style of game play that plays to a mages strength, and you're only real hope will be to load on MDC gear/magic spells/items and grab a rifle. I would, however, talk to your GM, specifically about how you view magic and casters, and how they view them. It might take a while to work out a system that works best for both of you, but it's the only way you're going to be able to resolve this frustration.

[Marcethus]

I never had a problem with survival of my Mage. Granted he is also psychic so sixth sense goes off and he sets up his defensive abilities then when the **** hits the fan, he casts his spells that will assist him and his allies or take out enemies if he runs out of PPE he then wades into combat with his allies to assist them in any way. Or if the enemy is beyond the groups capabilities he will use his spells to assist in the escaping. Granted at his current level he's pretty badass and powerful. But he has earned that power that he wields.

[runebeo]

Being a shifter gives you such an advantage over normal spell casters. they usually have a gang of minions and either a animal familiar or demonic familiar. Some have monster mounts or neather beasts the ones from Africa book are way more powerful than the Hades book. Since in Rifts your S.D.C. are not going to come into play much use up some of them and create a few iron golems to protect you and your home. It cost 6 S.D.C. and 8,000 credits to make an iron golem with 160 M.D.C. but they only take half damage from most attacks its worth looking into for most sorcerers who have a way of transporting them around. Having a Phantom Wolf mount can also save you by using its phantom walk ability to make you intangible for a few minutes can help you regroup and prepare. Why fight yourself when your pawns can do it for you. If your GM ever feels you gained to much power he can have you switch to the dark side and become one of main rivals of the group, this happens all the time popular culture.

[runebeo]

In our current game I'm the magic user while the other members of the party are hth and dmg dealers and dmg takers also.

I find that I spend a lot of time setting up spells and sometimes losing spells due to being disturbed.

I find the mage a very challenging character even with the new rules of lvl 6-8 spells taking 2 turns and 5 and under 1 turn. Getting disrupted or enemies are out of range by the time your magic takes affect. Casting invis does help but not all the time, casting cameleon also helps again not all the time and transforming or shielding ppe etc also helps sometimes.

If a strong enemy wants to kill a mage poor mage can't do anything cause the mage needs time to set up plus time to activate and then the mages spells don't last that long. I just find the mage is weak on random encounters and adventuring when things just comes up. They are stronger when they have time to set up but even then if the planning is off by 5-10 min or more alot of the mages spells expire.

Enemies are out of range by the time your magic takes affect? Our group plays that if a spell has a target at the time of casting it stays with the target till the effect happens. He was in range at the time of casting so its locked on even if he gets out of range.

[Grell]

Fast enemies use speed to their advantage. I like to be impartial and random roll a maintained distance a creature would maintain (if possible), but yeah.......gotta alter your tactics!

It's been said before....

....Carpet of Adhesion, anyone?

[Mouser13]

Sorry dup post

[Mouser13]

My question his how would be how is the GM ruling that hurting you.

First guess would be his he making you lose the P.P.E. if you are interrupted. Via Rifts book of Magic (Will try to get page number) if you are interrupted you do not lose the P.P.E.
Also it take physical damage to interrupt the spell which means only damage to yourself (Which you would be dead Assume S.D.C) will interrupt the spell.

Following that I would assume if your mage target exit your range you can just change targets or not cast it sure you lost the time, but not P.P.E..

If you think the new rules are hard the old would be impossible since it took 1/2 your actions per melee round or more for spells.

Second guess would be maybe your ley-line walker is just out classed by the tanks. If this is the problem then I don't know what to say.

Which can happen petty easier remember tanks classes have 30+ books of power creep mages have 3 books. (Though I think those 3 books are worth at least 20 books).

Though I have to say mages are support/Debuff characters in rifts not powerhouse DPS like DnD.

[Marcethus]

The problem is that a LLW can't take Talisman at first level. Its a level 10+ spell (Can't recall its exact level but I know its up there) if a GM doesn't give the player the opportunity to learn/acquire spells outside of leveling then they are gonna be very hampered.

[Marcethus]

The problem is that a LLW can't take Talisman at first level. Its a level 10+ spell (Can't recall its exact level but I know its up there) if a GM doesn't give the player the opportunity to learn/acquire spells outside of leveling then they are gonna be very hampered.

Not only is it 13th level it costs 500 P.P.E. to make, with limitations on the level of the spell in the Talisman. Not exactly something one can make on the fly.

Very true.

[Marcethus]

WOW

Here are my tips....

find one target and focus on it.
use these spells.
deflection
armor of icathan
targeted deflection
swap places
teleport
dimentional gate.

your fast, deadly and keep your opposition off target.

Have fun good luck

The bolded spells are expensive for any mage to cast unless at a nexus. Let alone learn.

[The Beast]

PPE Channeling doesnt work for all types of magic and mages. So when GM's use the rules and you are a mage who uses magic not supported by PPE Channeling, it sucks. Like a Cloudweaver Lyn-Srial. Granted, by 3rd level and higher, the spells are useful, but by following PPE Channeling rules, none of their spells can be cast in one turn at 1st level.

Sounds like it's working how it was meant to, IMO. Low level characters are supposed to still be learning their OCC, otherwise what's the incentive for leveling-up? Also there are a few cloud magic spells that can be cast by both the Sky Knight & Cloudweaver at level 1.

Would have to say that it isnt viable really with RUE and that its vastly incomplete. Need to add in all the other types of magic to make it work, including wards, summoning, ect. In other words, needs to be updated badly and made to work withing RUE rules.

My understanding of the rules is that wards & circles have their PPE channeled during the creation process of the ward or circle.

[Marcethus]

Marcethus, what is your actual stance on this? The last few posts have been contrarian with nothing else to offer. From your sig pic, I'd say that you either have, or support, magic characters, however your posts have been giving anti-magic vibes.

My official stance is Mages Rock. One of my Highest level charas, (sadly he's only level 5) and he is one bad ass mother, He's a True Atlantean Astral mage, he almost never relies on tech now that hes gotten more powerful. He does however use a number of Magic Items from across the Dimensions and he earned each and every one of them.

I am just being devil's advocate at times. And explaining issues that I have seen with Mages in the realm of PB.

[Mouser13]

Invisiblity:Simple + Aura of Death = poor mans Invisiblity:Superior.

Well I tought about that one years ago and people didn't like it said that you would still see the aura of death black aura. Though if your GM allows it it is better it allows you to still attack unlike Invisibility:Superior.

[Balabanto]

Simple Invisibility

Mystic Invisibility (Mercenary Adventures)

Invisibility to Sensors (Mercenary Adventures)

Now nothing can find you. Nothing can dodge. Go nuts. Cast whatever you want on them. It just doesn't matter. They will die before they find you. And you know, that rifle that the Mage has from everyone else's example? They can't dodge that either.

And 3.5 is the average on a d6. 1+2+3+4+5+6=21/6=3.5

[G]

Magic is the most versatile way to play.

If you want defense and offence, get mystic power armor - or some other (magic?) armor.

I have a load of magic ideas on my website in the Tolkeen section. Tolkeen posed a threat due to versatility.

[dark brandon]

It's simple to play a mage.

Some spells are broken (Carpet of adhesion and magic net).

The point is, don't try and win at everything. In a campaign I'm in, I'm playing a mystic, and while he has probably only landed...what, 3 killing blows and he's level 5. I don't need to be the one who is killing everything. Know why? Cause they always get shot at first.

Here's a few tricks on playing a sucessful mage.

1) Wear armor. EBA at that. The penalty you get for wearing it is almost negligable, and there's a 20% chance nothing will happen to your spell.

2) Get Energy weapon Proficiencies. Carry energy weapons. Chances are these will do more damage than your spells, which frees up PPE for other useful spells.

3) Patience. This is probably something (From reading this post) few mage players have. I cannot stress the importants of unleashing chaos in an orderly fashion. While playing, I've had my GM ask me "What are you going to do", and I'll say "nothing", and he replies "Don't you have a rifle". "Yes, I do...but I don't wanna give away my location". And nearly every time I've done this in one or two actions, something happens that allows me to do something awesome and get super exp for saving an ally. Don't feel like every action you have to do something. Even if your enemy can see invisible, if your just standing there and your ally is launching a volley of missiles, chances are, you'll be ignored for right now. And if you arn't, you've still got armor on, so dodge or take it.

4) Variety as best you can. You don't need 100 damage spells. One or two spells should be fine. A few save spells, a few stealth spells, a few non-combat spells. Look at the effect, and look at the cost. There are MANY low level spells that have the same effect, just shortened duration as higher level spells. Agony is good. Standard save, of course magic net will have relatively the same effect for less mana, and a higher save. Fear is a spell that makes enemies lose 1 attack, makes them lose initiative and they have to leave an area. Save is 16. Diversify your spell book as best you can.

5) Don't make yourself a target. Already stated a few times, but just wanted to be clear

6) Have skills to back up your magic, have magic to back up your skills. Invisibility not cutting it? Well prowl while invisible.

7) Your allies are a resource, use them. Enhance them with magic protections and abilities. For example: Just today, we were in a gun fight and our vanguard brawler was getting pelted with lasers. So, I throw him a charged lightning rod. On the other side, a carpet of adhesion kept 3 more enemies from getting into the fight and the other PC ended up killing them with grenades from a safe area. When they started trying to shoot the grenades, I use blinding flash. All in all, we had something like...15 NPCs attack our group, and not a one ever fired at me, either because I was prowling, invisible and out of sight or because there was this monster who was killing them and was a more immediate threat. Please note, while this is just an example, this isn't a rare occurrence and happens nearly every session.

Oh, and I'm playing a mystic who's only taking spells from RUE.

[dark brandon]

Why play a mage if you're going to wear EBA and carry around a rifle?

Because you don't wanna die? Just a shot in the dark.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that tech armor and weapons are pointless or verboten, but if you're going to look and act like a mundane, then you might as well be a mundane, you're missing out. Not to mention the fact that the very nature of the character's training would almost certainly give, or even almost require as a pre-requisite, a disdain for such high tech solutions.

Who says this? Why? Just because you want stipulations on a character doesn't mean anything. Nor do I see any justification for it, and point to a mages skill selection that does not limit them in their tech ways and most (If not all mages) get MD weapons in standard equipment.

An apprentice will tend to affect a style similar to that of his teacher/master. In some cases, like the Temporal Wizard, the book even states how they dress, this being due to the time spent around the Temporal Raider teacher. And the CS has a skill for picking out mages based on their appearances and affectations. This can only happen if it's basically universal, and if it is, then why is it? Well, why are certain words considered "bad"? It's probably a very similar reason - someone somewhere felt that way and taught many who carried that tradition/idea on, and in turn passed it onto their students, etc, etc, etc.

CS doesn't have a skill to pick out mages. Generally speaking they have ways to pick them out via dog boys or psi-stalkers. The blue line walkers from chaos earth (Predecessors of LLW) were basically self-taught mages who came out of a world where tech ruled.

So basically while a mage COULD wear armor, and/or choose to blend in, it's not in their nature, either to use tech, OR to blend in, OR to do anything that could interfere with their casting at all. To look at the negative and say "it's not that bad, just take it in exchange for the benefit" is 'gaming the game'.

I disagree. Just because a modern martial artist can walk to the store doesn't mean he doesn't own a car. I don't see mages as some archaic view or bland people who dislike something. There's no good reason to dislike tech and there's nothing in many mage classes to suggest otherwise...heck, a whole branch of magic is dedicated to the combination of magic and tech. I think not choosing to use tech is a personal choice, and not a common one among the mages of RIFTS.

[Marcethus]

Actually the CS does have a skill that allows soldiers to Pick out Mages in a roundabout way. Its in SOT series (not sure which on but I think its in the First SOT book.

[Marcethus]

Most mages do disdain the extensive use of Technology but they are willing to use it as needed depending on the situation.

[Noon]

Energy field is another good one. Cast it around yourself, and have an MD forcefield up to 8 feet in diameter. Unless they can destroy it in one or two shots, you should have a few free actions to cast a spell without hinderance. Also it only takes 1 action to cast. Obviously this will interfere with direct line of fire spells like fireball or annihilate, but call lighting, curses, casting buffs on the fighers in the group, etc. are all very possible.

You can also cast it in front of you, as cover, which doesn't affect line of sight spells.

[dark brandon]

So then it's IMPOSIBLE to play a vagabond or city rat then? Don't want to die? Do this - have armor spells (Ithan and Bizarre are able to be launched in a single attack), be smart; stay out of the line of fire and don't act like you're superman. It's not rocket science and it does NOT require EBA.

I never said wearing EBA was required. But I find it foolish not to wear it if it's available.

Magic vs Technology. The 2 diametrically opposed ways of life represented by Tolkeen and the CS, are the antithesis of each other

I know you won't be swayed by that, your conviction is obviously too strong.

You are correct. The difference between what you and I are saying is you're claiming a mage would never turn to tech (and if you're not, you're defiantly coming off that way). I say they will and should when it's beneficial to them, and there's nothing that says they shouldn't.

Wizards should use magic - duh!
.... Sure, they can use technology, and they will, but they know that magic is superior (at least they think so), so they will have a very strong tendency to prefer magic over feeble technology)

Please note, I never said they shouldn't use magic. If they weren't intended to use tech, they wouldn't start out with MD weapons.

Traditional garb of the Ley Line Walker comes from the Dark Age and always includes some kind of headgear and tunic to cover the head and part of the face, a hooded cloak or cape (very big into cloaks and capes), loose fitting robes, loin cloth (worn over pants or robes) and/or an ornate belt with inscribed strips of cloth or ornate jewelery dangling from the waist, walking boots, and a gas mask or air filter to cover the mouth. Goggles, horns and other face coverings may also be part of the ensemble.

"Traditional garb" eh? Sounds like the overwhelming majority stick to that overal idea afterall.

Traditional garb, is fine. When I was wiccan, our traditional garb was wearing earth colors with a cloak and robes. That doesn't mean when I went to high school I wore them.

Fact is, if one simply applies a little logic (even just a little), we see a group of people who are more intune with the power flowing around and through them, a freer spirit with a different perspective. People who are a little on the weird side, and very individualistic. People who chant and gesticulate in bold ways to control the very universe around them. People who, like anybody, will use what they know best and prefer most, which in this case is magic, that means that they will NOT do anything that will interfere with their primary focus (such as wearing full MD EBA).

I disagree. If such things were made to be "definate" then they wouldn't have access to those skills. A little logic (even just a little) tells you in a world that is as deadly as rifts, taking any precautions to keep yourself alive is probably the best thing to do possible. This includes using tech. (Just a little logic)

Not to mention it takes the soul out of the character, which may be fine for you, but to suggest that people who play mages should do that is where you go wrong, and why I posted that response in the first place. It was your phrasing.

I simply disagree with how you see mages. I don't view them as tree-huggin hippies who'll ignore something useful. It's ridiculous.

CS doesn't have a skill to pick out mages. Generally speaking they have ways to pick them out via dog boys or psi-stalkers.

Skill: Knowledge of Magic (for military applications)
.... The skill imparts the following knowledge: Identification of practitioners of magic
.... they know that Techno-Wizards typically wear leather jackets and have gadgets and gizmos. Mystics tend to wear hooded cloaks and robes with colorful, rich, flamboyant clothing. Shifters tend to wear dark clothing, leather, spikes, and extravagant jewellery made of silver and gold, and gems...

And on it goes describing the various styles specific to the many magic classes.

Well, I can't decry this, I don't have the book. I will say that should a mage walk around the country side looking "stereotypical" they deserve to die, and honestly, that's quite bland. But, if the book says it.

That's going way out of context. The trained martial artist WOULD, however, prefer to use his own body, or ancient weapons that he was trained with, in a fight over weapons that he is not trained in or fall outside his combat style and preference.

No, a martial artist would use a car. Of course he'd want to use his body as much as possible, but if a better opportune presents itself they arn't going to ignore it. If you take a professional martial artist and tell him he's going to be in a gun fight, he'll probably take the gun.

Overall, you're coming at this backwards. People prone to using EBA and guns won't be prone to using magic. That's why mages DO tend to shy away from such things and DO tend to be more flamboyant and stand apart from the mundanes, it's part of who they are that drew them to a life dedicated to magic in the first place.

I disagree. I think mages in common company may stand out, and wear traditional garb, but in battle they are going to use what is most effective. If that means wearing some armor and using a laser until he can get in close and finish his enemy with blinding flash or something he will, at least if he has a good sense of self preservation.

[Library Ogre]

I never said wearing EBA was required. But I find it foolish not to wear it if it's available.

It is foolish to go into combat without protection in such cases where protection is warranted (large battle, combat against something more powerful, etc). But MD EBA? Again - why? Think about this for a second. Armor of Ithan and Amor Bizzar offer protection similar to, or even greater than, MD EBA. Breathe without Air takes care of the rest. Maybe toss in Impervious to Energy if needed for certain situation. (to complete the full "E" effect) Low level spells with low PPE cost that can be pulled out of the surrounding environment or easily replaced, OR placed into talismans or TW items, either themselves or purchased. A wise mage is NEVER without protection, even if all he's (or she's) wearing is a robe.

Your case only works for a mage who has no defense spells and no defense magic items that ventures into combat against many and/or powerful enemies. To paraphrase your own comments - such a mage deserves to be cut down.

Your example requires three spells, one of which is over 5th level. Meaning it takes a full melee to equal what can be solved by wearing EBA. Furthermore, AoI doesn't begin to match EBA until 5th level, at least; Armor Bizarre manages about 4th level, IIRC.

I can put on a suit of EBA at 1st level, then cast AoI or AB over it. Or build TW devices into it.

[Balabanto]

I never said wearing EBA was required. But I find it foolish not to wear it if it's available.

It is foolish to go into combat without protection in such cases where protection is warranted (large battle, combat against something more powerful, etc). But MD EBA? Again - why? Think about this for a second. Armor of Ithan and Amor Bizzar offer protection similar to, or even greater than, MD EBA. Breathe without Air takes care of the rest. Maybe toss in Impervious to Energy if needed for certain situation. (to complete the full "E" effect) Low level spells with low PPE cost that can be pulled out of the surrounding environment or easily replaced, OR placed into talismans or TW items, either themselves or purchased. A wise mage is NEVER without protection, even if all he's (or she's) wearing is a robe.

Your case only works for a mage who has no defense spells and no defense magic items that ventures into combat against many and/or powerful enemies. To paraphrase your own comments - such a mage deserves to be cut down.

Your example requires three spells, one of which is over 5th level. Meaning it takes a full melee to equal what can be solved by wearing EBA. Furthermore, AoI doesn't begin to match EBA until 5th level, at least; Armor Bizarre manages about 4th level, IIRC.

I can put on a suit of EBA at 1st level, then cast AoI or AB over it. Or build TW devices into it.

Actually, there is a simple and practical alternative which does not interfere with spellcasting. Just get a Naruni Force Field belt. This also eliminates one of the major weaknesses of the mage, because as long as you have e-clips to recharge the belt, the force field triggers automatically, keeping the mage from smearing all over the pavement. Then you can wear NEBA armor, build the FF into it, and cast over that. No chance of spell loss, no chance of PPE increase, and OH does it annoy people.

[Library Ogre]

I never said that 3 spells HAD to be used. It was an example of how something could be countered quickly and easily, not have to be repaired, and cost nothing to use.

They cost time and energy. If I'm wandering around, sans armor, and am suddenly attacked by, say, a Forest Runner dragon hatchling, they breathe and I'm ****ed. It takes them winning initiative or having surprise, and you have no chance to cast your useful spells.

Now, wearing EBA, you're protected from sudden attacks. Sure, it costs money, but it saves your butt in any situations where you don't have time to prepare. And since you've got spells and like, your armor takes less damage than a man at arms would. A forcefield helps with some of this, but environmental effects are common, and it won't protect you from some attacks (River of Lava, Wall of Fire, Cloud of Slumber, Cloud of Smoke, etc.)

[dark brandon]

It is foolish to go into combat without protection in such cases where protection is warranted (large battle, combat against something more powerful, etc). But MD EBA? Again - why? Think about this for a second. Armor of Ithan and Amor Bizzar offer protection similar to, or even greater than, MD EBA. Breathe without Air takes care of the rest. Maybe toss in Impervious to Energy if needed for certain situation. (to complete the full "E" effect) Low level spells with low PPE cost that can be pulled out of the surrounding environment or easily replaced, OR placed into talismans or TW items, either themselves or purchased. A wise mage is NEVER without protection, even if all he's (or she's) wearing is a robe.

Your case only works for a mage who has no defense spells and no defense magic items that ventures into combat against many and/or powerful enemies. To paraphrase your own comments - such a mage deserves to be cut down.

No, my case works on all levels. AoI and AB do not offer the same protection than MD EBA. Maybe if your 5th, they will offer more Damage protection, but that's it. All 3 armors have their place. Anything you can do with your spells (talismen, Impervious to energy) I can do as well, and I can do it while having the extra protection of EBA.

What I AM saying is that they won't *rely* on it, and above all will not allow it to interfere with their magic. A C-14 won't interfere with their magic. Dead Boy armor will. There's a big difference. The gun is useful at times. As is a set of binocs, or radio, or even vehicle. That is not the same thing as using MD EBA when magic will provide better protection at lower ongoing cost and not interfere with them in any way.

Which is a silly stance. The interference of armor with magic is nearly null. Wearing armor does not keep them from tapping ley lines, or absoring PPE from a murder.

This is an all or none situation for you, and some how not using MD EBA equals never touching tech at all. As for weapons, yeah, sometimes ya gotta do what ya gotta do, even Obi Wan used a blaster to take out Greivous, but he hated having to do it like that. So it would be with most mages as well. They'll use it, they won't be stupid, but they would prefer not to more often than not. (TWs notwithstanding, they aren't casters, and they also prefer to use their own fetishes rather than real tech)

Most would perfer not to, but to suggest they would never wear EBA for any reason is silly.

When you went to high school, was it a post apocalyptic world with little to no society, with what remained of it scattered to the 4 winds resulting in a lawless, barely habited cross between a wasteland and extremely hazardous wilderness where people of all stripe wore all manner of crazy get up on a regular basis right along side nightmarish monstrosities?

Not really a workable comparison (your HS days to Rifts Earth), is it? Furthermore, clearly your "wiccan phase" wasn't a real conviction, like magic is to a mage. That makes it apples to oranges even more-so.

The analogy is that there is a time and place for things, which you missed. A mage would probably wear his garb when he is in a friendly city, doing a ritual and other things. Not wearing it in the heat of combat.

Women have the skill and the means to be prostitutes, does that mean that they all do it? Coroners have the skill to be serial killers, outside of Dexter, do they do it?

Having access to a skill does NOT imply it's use in the first place, nor does it's use mean a reliance. Nor does an energy rifle equate to EBA.

You have not grasped logic at all. Try to refrain from sarcasm in such cases.

And you should refrain from insults. If you can't handle a civil argument, I suggest you refrain from posting.

A person who can drive a car, probably will unless there is some better alternative.

No, what is ridiculous is, claiming that they will all strap on the baddest man-made tech armor available, just because it's there and they can use a rifle.

I hate hippies. I like mages. I have a mage character. I have also fought the idea that they would never under any circumstances touch tech. I have in this very thread stated that some may very well do as you suggest and it's not prohibited to do so, but showed how and where the canon material shows that the overwhelming majority goes against your idea. You are wrong (about the bulk of mages, and about my opinion of them).

You have not shown anything beyond a few points which I counter-argued.

So a world where a group of people tend to affect a certain overall style is bland, while a world where they have none at all and look like any other man at arms isn't? lol

Furthermore, it's not the star embroidered robes and pointy hat for all mages. It's something different for each type, and there are dozens upon dozens running around. If you want variety, that is it.

Some mages may not want EBA, but that doesn't mean it's because they can't use it or have some dogmatic view of it. Some will want to be stealthy, and use lighter armor, some will be combat heavy and use heavy armor. To make themselves a target in combat by wearing robes isn't something I think any mage who is not mentally deficient would do. EBA offers the greatest protection and if the mage suspects he's going to be in heavy combat he'll dawn heavy armor.

No, he would avoid the fight altogether because the goal of a real martial artist is not to harm or kill people. And the only "professional martial artists" would be prize fighters, they overwhelmingly tend to be non-violent outside of the ring (or octagon).

This wasn't an option for him. He would take a gun if he had no choice.

Using blinding flash won't finish an enemy. In fact, blinding flash would be better used to give time to get into the armor and pull out the laser. You're coming at it backwards once again.

At a -10 to s/p/d...being blinded...this is pretty much a death sentance to any enemy.

This is really about style. Style is a subject I've spent a long time thinking about in the real world. Style - our clothes - is a label, but one that we apply to ourselves. It reveals our true nature, our tastes, and consequently keeps unwanted people at bay, and draws like minds closer.

I use to think alot about that when I was in high school. Much like peacocks...

You are actually claiming that mages would not have a traditional garb beyond ceremonial stuff, and in the field it would be a case of blending in with absolutely everybody else - even to the point of denying the premise that given personality types would be attracted to certain things.[

Ok, let's work with that for a moment. Ever hear of "hockey hair"? Ever notice that during the playoffs the players all start to look like lumberjacks of the old school? Ever notice that you can tell a punk from a metal head from a goth?

I can tell you after I got out of high school, the defintion of what a "punk" and "goth" were changed. It becomes more of a life-style than a trend, and in the working world where you do what you have to do to survive, you tend to dress for the job you want. On your days off, when you go to the club you'll get all "punked/gothed" out...

Why do you suppose that is? In every case, you have like minds. What one likes, the others are likely to appreciate as well because htey are similar. That is why you have general styles.

Does that mean that all goths look alike? Maybe to a pink, but not to people who know anything about it. Likewise for punks and metal heads. And so too, likewise for mages.

They do in the working world. There are certain tip-offs, but generally speaking unless they land a job at the gap...er...I mean Hot topic or lucky enough to become a tattoo artist, they blend in with society just as well as anyone else.

The specific paring is a matter of opinion and open to debate, but the point is they all have their style, and they live it 24/7. They will tend to shy away from situations that require them to venture outside of their style (how often do you see someone with a 3 foot rainbow spiked mohawk in a buisness suit?). If absolutely necessary they will do so, they aren't stupid, but it's way down on the list of preferences for them, avoiding the situation is generally more palletable if possible.

I'm glad you finally agree with me.

[dark brandon]

Actually, there is a simple and practical alternative which does not interfere with spellcasting. Just get a Naruni Force Field belt. This also eliminates one of the major weaknesses of the mage, because as long as you have e-clips to recharge the belt, the force field triggers automatically, keeping the mage from smearing all over the pavement. Then you can wear NEBA armor, build the FF into it, and cast over that. No chance of spell loss, no chance of PPE increase, and OH does it annoy people.

I dislike FF in my game, but besides that in NA Naruni FF are rare. About the only place you could have found them is in Tolkeen and maybe Dunscon.

[Library Ogre]

Sure. And we're back to the "let's all gank the lonely mage" again. Why is it always a scenario like that? You could be hit from a stray bullet in a drive by, or a victim of a beltway sniper copy cat, do you wear full armor every time you leave the house?

I also don't live in a world where I have to regularly fear wild animals or most of the people I'll meet on the way to the store. As for why it's frequently "Let's gank the wizard", it's because wizards are dangerous. If they've got time, they can do absolutely horrible things to you... even things as simple as sticking you to ground while their buddies pound on you.

Not wearing armor, when everyone around you is, is announcing "I am powerful enough that I do not need armor; therefore, I should be killed first.

The point is, while those situations may technically be possible, they are extremely unlikely to happen. For a GM to do that to any player would be a cheap-shot and a sign of a ****-poor GM. So you can't look at those crazy, cherry picked examples and claim that mages should wear EBA, especially when everything else says they would not (and do not) if at all possible.

It's not a cheap shot by a poor GM if someone purposefully walks into a dangerous situation (which is life in Rifts) without protecting themselves.

Your exampled are akin to poisoning a Glitter Boy while he's out of his armor, or blowing up the building a head hunter is sleeping in, or sniping someone from a mile away when they take their helmet off to take a drink of water. A game like that won't keep players for long and ultimately would be pointless.

Ok, let's try a slight different situation. You're traveling along with your friend the glitterboy. You ride a hovercycle, but don't wear armor because you're a bad-ass wizard. There's a surprise attack (you both failed your perception rolls), and the enemy launches a fragmentation missile at the glitter boy. Result? You die, because you're caught in the blast, and even at 1/4 damage (half for being the blast radius, half again for rolling with it), you're taking several hundred points of damage.

The attack was completely legitimate. It was against a target that could take it. You're a piece of rapidly cooling meat because you didn't take basic precautions to keep yourself safe at all times. We're not talking a GM killing you in your sleep. We're talking about someone who has failed to practice basic personal safety in a dangerous world and engaged in a dangerous profession.

Does Bob, the guy who uses magic to heal people in Nowheresville, need to wear armor on a daily basis? Probably not. Does the person who regularly ventures into the lawless wilderness need armor on a daily basis? If he wants to live, it's a damn good idea to rely on some kind of armor, for surprise attacks, if nothing else. The Universe is a much less forgiving GM than the guy who sits across the table from you.

[dark brandon]

If mages can just wear whatever they want, how is it even remotely possible for a mage to ever lose to a non-mage? A mage has all the benefits of technology, and all the benefits of magic.

1) Generally, non-mages have other skills.

2) Wearing PA keeps most instant-kill spells at bay

3) Bionics/cybernetics

4) Catch a mage with his pants down.

In a straight on fight, unless the mage is ill-prepared for battle, he should win.

[Marcethus]

I am going to have to agree with Bloodspray on this. Mages are different. While I don't agree Nor do I use the penalty for mages wearing Full EBA because its not listed in the original RMB and I disagree with it. Its to DnD for me. I do think that mages will disdain most, not all, Technologies. At low levels they will use armor, but as they gain levels and power they will slowly divest themselves of these things as they come to rely more on their own powers and magics.

[dark brandon]

At low levels they will use armor

Even at high level, they'll use armor. But at those levels, they will have TW armors, FF's and other such things. At higher levels, many merc's will probably have access to more sophisticated armor and weapons (PA, or FF, or even bionic augmentation).

[dark brandon]

No, it wasn't legitimate. The GB would have seen something on his sensors

Unless his opponents were tech, or used magic to hide themselves.

or the mage would have seen or felt something.

Mages are not psychic, and have no special perception beyond any spells they have

You're talking about 2 people wandering around blind-folded. They deserve to get blasted. Anything else is crappy GM'ing. It simply encourages munchkinism and roll playing. A good GM should be focusing on story, and trying to get his players OUT of the armor they try to wear 24/7 and stink to high hell in.

Combat is as much a part of a story as the interaction with PC's. It encourages players to play the game. When you're out in the wilderness, you wear armor. That is not munchkinism, that's a rift reality. And a good mage would have the spell "cleanse" so no worries of stinking. But, I only know how to play good mages.

[dark brandon]

Tech - GB picks it up, Magic, the mage picks it up. How? Many have 6th sense.

Only a mystic from the RMB would have that. There's also a small % chance a few others will have it. And a GB tech can be hidden. Not to question your validity, but what mage classes have 6th sense, beyond the mystic?

Good lord, stop that man! You're gonna get me in trouble at work, I damn near fell out of my chair!

You haven't a clue how to play anything other than a munchkin, your commentary in this thread porves that, it's too serious, and your continued presense shows FAR too much conviction in what's being spewed forth from your keyboard.

Well, I've had 2 writers of rifts books tell me I play an excellent mage, I've yet to see anyone except yourself contradict anything I've said. One partially agrees with me (or I him) in that low level mages would use armor.

You may laugh and make rude comments all you like, that's your prerogative and welcomed to it. You may make claims on my game play and such, without having ever seen me play and again, that is your decision, that says something about your character. At this moment in time, you are alone in your views, and that should say something.

Best wishes.