Forums of the Megaverse®

what are you talking about 10% of soldiers can hit a target at 300 yards

in the marines you shoot out 500 meters during your yearly testing. Most people can hit better than 6 out of 10 300 years of tech later I personally think the ranges are way to low. With a .50 Barret you can hit targets a mile out no problem. In a few centuaries I hope Barret or its successors will have me shooting thirty or forty miles out

The problem with tech items is that they can be taken away from you, . While with magic, once you know how to use it, it can't bee taken from you except with borging the char out or giving you 7 magic tatts.

I've never seen any reason for people to look at it as an either/or issue.
Having a mage rely solely on magic would be like having a Rogue Scholar rely solely on literacy, or having a vagabond rely solely on his soap and candy.
Nobody in the real world works that way, nobody in the fictional world should either.
People use the best tools for the job; sometimes magic is the best tool, sometimes tech is.

ManDrake13 wrote:Unlike most people that play mages, I'm not going to lie to you, Kevin and Crew dropped the ball seriously bad when they moved over the magic for Rifts from the other Palladium games. The mages presented in the first books weakling reprints of material that desperately needed a good going over by someone that knew something about RPG's. No considerations for the environment that they existed in was given, it was just a sloppy cut and paste job. Personally I've always felt it was because they had a serious disdain for mages from other RPG's and decided to make their opinions a reality (ie. Read Siege of Tolkeen, thousands of Mystics in the defense forces and not a single premonition that their entire society was about to be wiped off the planet, not even a single instance of sixth sense, yeah right!). It is regularly showcased in every couple of books by their rehashing the Mystic again with one new power and a different name as if that is suppose to represent some real effort to make magic a part of Rifts. But I digress.

To your point, the ranged combat system in Rifts has been seriously broken since it's inception. It's purposely rigged to provide combat Junkies in the game guaranteed success in pretty much every combat situation. So you could easily hit every target be it 3 feet away or 3 miles with a simple roll of a 5 on your twenty sided dice. Long gone are the days where only 10% of soldiers could hit a target at 300 meters and it taking 50,000 shots to kill a single enemy soldier. Suddenly every goober with a laser rifle is master marksman at the maximum range of the weapon. Hence the rise of the power gamers who after a few short level of bonuses, suddenly never missed any shot they took. And lets not even get me started on how broken the dodging system was in the beginning. Would have helped out a lot if someone would have printed in big bold letters from day one that dodging modern weapons starts you off with a -10 to your dodge roll. It took 3 or 4 books before they realized that misprint. But I digress once again, back to the topic at hand.

Why would a mage ever use magic? It's a tough question I guess. Before Federation of Magic, I was hard pressed to find a single spell that really was effective enough to allow me to forgo technology. The crappy spells from PFRPG were pretty much useless in the modern environment and left a mage little more than a helpless vagabond under most circumstances. After Federation of Magic, that all changed and a mage with a few extra spells could actually live without most technology. Remember the gas masks are just for decoration, not a requirement to be a Ley Line Walker. Personally, my Ley Line Walkers have always worn something like what Samurai use to wear, a demon faced mask. Either way spells like Sustain eliminate the need for a mage to breath completely. So maybe at low level you might depend on a piece of technology by after a certain point the need is gone completely. Same with the vaunted laser pistol, now we have Throwing Stones, a long duration attack spell available to all mages at first level. It does as much damage as a laser pistol and has almost the same range. Electric Arc is another longer duration spell that allows a mage to keep delivering damage to opponents. As for armor, mages can still wear armor, I generally have always worn Fury Beetle or Ironwood armor, but I've been known to wear Resin Armor or Shellback Armor depending on the campaign I was in. Some have been full environmental, some have not. The point is that a mage can easily walk around with just as much MDC protection as any other foot soldier so it's really a non-issue.

The grim picture you paint are common ones among the magic haters crowds as for why mages suck in Rifts. Yes you could make the same sort of situation for every armor wearing moron in the game. You are taking a bath and a sniper starts shooting at you and you don't have you armor and weapons what do you do? Trust me, I've made more than one over confident Glitterboy eat a fusion block for openly doubting a mage's abilities. But I digress once again. My first question is always what makes this mage any worse off than anyone else in this situation? If you are talking about the mages that Kevin cut and pasted from PFRPG's yes they could be in sad shape because you could interrupt them in casting even the most basic spell. But with the revised rules, they can now cast a 1-5th level spell in a single melee action. Not to mention that now nearly twice as much PPE for spell casting available to them. And now a Ley Line Walker gets an extra spell per level as well, and the second spell is picked from a spell list that includes spells from higher levels than the current one. Not to mention their expanded powers on Ley Lines.

So better, longer lasting spells, twice as much initial PPE available to them, wide array of armor choices, more spells, and faster casting times. That pretty much sums up why your wrong about mages today. 10 years ago your weak arguments might have held up, but now they just reflect a lack of knowledge of the rules of the game. The only mages using technology today (outside of TW's of course) are just showing that their GM's are pretty poor to say the least. Most mages might still carry a gun for show, personally I've become rather fond of CFT hand guns because of their versatility. Mind you, nine times out of ten I'm usually handing it off to some unarmed person that I'm trying to save, than using it myself. But never confuse style with substance. The only magi that have to be pragmatic are those that are being forced to be by terrible GM's.

I don't get it.

You have a long thesis about why Mages arn't helpless without magic.

At no point did you give a rational explination to _disclude_ it.

A mage COULD use throwing stones.

or draw his wilks laser pistol.

Nither choice is inherently wrong.

Remember, Mages dont HATE Tech, they would just rather use their magic before using Tech. I usually play my mages to use their magic until their PPE is out, then go to the Tech Weapons.

verdilak wrote:Remember, Mages dont HATE Tech, they would just rather use their magic before using Tech. I usually play my mages to use their magic until their PPE is out, then go to the Tech Weapons.

So a mage would rather blow PPE using Fly as the Eagle rather than hop on their hoverbike every time?

I don't buy it...

ManDrake13 wrote:Sorry to offend macksting, I've been having this argument since 91, I've gotten pretty mean and ruthless about it at this point.

I used the Army's hit ratios csbioborg, assign the appropriate inner service rivalry commentary as needed.

Even the admitedly ineffective Army infantry is actually much better than that. That 10% figure is for all army personel. That includes techs, cooks, paper clerks, etc. Those guys don't get any weapons training generally after boot camp. The infantry guys for obivous reasons do. Therefore a CS Grunt should be compared to a infantryman in the army. Moreover since in the rifts setting these guys are fighting far more than most troops even in a combat zone on a regular basis they would be better marksman for that reason as well

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

verdilak wrote:Remember, Mages dont HATE Tech, they would just rather use their magic before using Tech. I usually play my mages to use their magic until their PPE is out, then go to the Tech Weapons.

So a mage would rather blow PPE using Fly as the Eagle rather than hop on their hoverbike every time?

I don't buy it...

Not for small stuff like that, no... mages will save their PPE for when they need it, like battle. But if your mage is using a tech weapon in combat rather than spells, he's got to call himself a mage somehow, so he prolly would use Fly instead of using a hoverbike.

Besides, a hoverbike, while it IS transportation, it isnt Flying. A mage who learned Fly wanted to fly. If a player of mine was playing his character that way, he wouldnt be getting the XP for playing in character.

Thats like a Gunslinger never using his guns.

verdilak wrote:Remember, Mages dont HATE Tech, they would just rather use their magic before using Tech. I usually play my mages to use their magic until their PPE is out, then go to the Tech Weapons.

I do it the other way around.
My mages use their guns for the most part, saving their PPE for important matters.
Sucks to use up your energy shooting lightning at your enemies, only to find out you need to Fly or teleport a few minutes after the battle's over.

verdilak wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

verdilak wrote:Remember, Mages dont HATE Tech, they would just rather use their magic before using Tech. I usually play my mages to use their magic until their PPE is out, then go to the Tech Weapons.

So a mage would rather blow PPE using Fly as the Eagle rather than hop on their hoverbike every time?

I don't buy it...

Not for small stuff like that, no... mages will save their PPE for when they need it, like battle. But if your mage is using a tech weapon in combat rather than spells, he's got to call himself a mage somehow, so he prolly would use Fly instead of using a hoverbike.

Besides, a hoverbike, while it IS transportation, it isnt Flying. A mage who learned Fly wanted to fly. If a player of mine was playing his character that way, he wouldnt be getting the XP for playing in character.

Thats like a Gunslinger never using his guns.

Actually, it's more like a Gunslinger who doesn't use his guns for absolutely everything.
Which is really how they should work, unless you want to have your character act like Homer Simpson, when he got his handgun and used it to open his beer and turn off the lights and stuff.

csbioborg wrote:

ManDrake13 wrote:Sorry to offend macksting, I've been having this argument since 91, I've gotten pretty mean and ruthless about it at this point.

I used the Army's hit ratios csbioborg, assign the appropriate inner service rivalry commentary as needed.

Even the admitedly ineffective Army infantry is actually much better than that. That 10% figure is for all army personel. That includes techs, cooks, paper clerks, etc. Those guys don't get any weapons training generally after boot camp. The infantry guys for obivous reasons do. Therefore a CS Grunt should be compared to a infantryman in the army. Moreover since in the rifts setting these guys are fighting far more than most troops even in a combat zone on a regular basis they would be better marksman for that reason as well

No, they shouldn't.

Two Words: Energy Weapons.

Two More Words: Advanced Sighting.

Two More Words After That: No Recoil.

The Rifts Soldier, Rifts Sniper, and the Rifts Half-Blind Crazy Hermit for that matter have virtually NONE of the problems that we have with our Guns and Rifles here in the real world, and they can shoot more accurately at hal a mile than most of us can -from ANY branch of the Armed Services -at "just" 500 yards .

ManDrake13 wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

verdilak wrote:Remember, Mages dont HATE Tech, they would just rather use their magic before using Tech. I usually play my mages to use their magic until their PPE is out, then go to the Tech Weapons.

So a mage would rather blow PPE using Fly as the Eagle rather than hop on their hoverbike every time?

I don't buy it...

Nekira Sudacne, I've debated for days how to answer your question. But it's a tough question to answer, it's like asking me why I prefer red heads to blonds. There isn't wisely thought out rationalization involved, I just have a preference. I use Fly, Fly as an Eagle or Winged Flight because I don't have to worry about keeping up with the Hovercycle. It's just easier, fit's into my travel light mentality in the real world, that gets projected into the game world. It's just something fundamental in my personality. Some people just weren't born to be mages, it's just not in their DNA as players. Technology is a crutch for some mages because they are acted upon by an outside force (ie. a poor GM not giving them the spells that would allow them to develop) or they really don't have the mage mentality. The class is just a bad fit for them as a player. Nothing wrong with that, just realize that it isn't any measure of what it means to be a mage unless magic is what you are focused on doing. Think of it like a religion, where your not suppose to eat pork. Nothing physically keeps you from eating it, it's just something you believe you need to do. Same thing for vegans and so on. It's something greater than yourself that you adhere too even if it's fashionable or easy. I feel like I'm describing the color blue to a blind person, unless you have experienced it there is no point of reference for you to understand what I'm talking about.

Basically, you're assuming that all mages prefer redheads.
All "real" mages at least.

But, again, I simply don't think that attitude makes any sense.
You don't get to dictate what the proper mage mentality is.

ManDrake13 wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

verdilak wrote:Remember, Mages dont HATE Tech, they would just rather use their magic before using Tech. I usually play my mages to use their magic until their PPE is out, then go to the Tech Weapons.

So a mage would rather blow PPE using Fly as the Eagle rather than hop on their hoverbike every time?

I don't buy it...

Nekira Sudacne, I've debated for days how to answer your question. But it's a tough question to answer, it's like asking me why I prefer red heads to blonds. There isn't wisely thought out rationalization involved, I just have a preference. I use Fly, Fly as an Eagle or Winged Flight because I don't have to worry about keeping up with the Hovercycle. It's just easier, fit's into my travel light mentality in the real world, that gets projected into the game world. It's just something fundamental in my personality. Some people just weren't born to be mages, it's just not in their DNA as players. Technology is a crutch for some mages because they are acted upon by an outside force (ie. a poor GM not giving them the spells that would allow them to develop) or they really don't have the mage mentality. The class is just a bad fit for them as a player. Nothing wrong with that, just realize that it isn't any measure of what it means to be a mage unless magic is what you are focused on doing. Think of it like a religion, where your not suppose to eat pork. Nothing physically keeps you from eating it, it's just something you believe you need to do. Same thing for vegans and so on. It's something greater than yourself that you adhere too even if it's fashionable or easy. I feel like I'm describing the color blue to a blind person, unless you have experienced it there is no point of reference for you to understand what I'm talking about.

So do all mages perfer readheads? (to quote KC above)

There's nothing in a mages "religion" that forbids using things other than magic, like forbidding pork.

it's like saying "Eating chicken is holy". You think you should always eat chicken. but that dosn't mean pork is banned to you.

and sometimes, you just like a change of pace.

That's a good description ManDrake, and dating preferences make an amusingly apt comparison.
Though in the same vein, but closer to the scale of the divide, would be a comparison male preferences regarding the magnitude of certain secondary sexual characteristics in the opposite sex. Wherein mages stereotypically prefer large *cough* usage of magic. Forgive the crudeness, but it matches a bit more. Between actual preferences and peer pressure, most mages will agree that more magic is better. There'll be those with more pragmatic and/or alternative views, but the next largest group would be those that strongly feel the opposite. These techno-mages love their magic just as much, but prefer it more easily handleable and more focused.


A different example would be a mathematician, who has practiced and studied equations, numbers, and formulae for years of his life. When presented with a difficult equation he knows he should be able to solve, is he more likely to try figuring out in his head and/or on scrap paper, or would he reach for a calculator that should be faster and easier. If you answered calculator you'd have chosen the more statistically unlikely of the two. If you spend so much of yourself in something, and you can do it yourself, and you ENJOY doing this thing that you've so much into honing, you're going to favor flexing your abilities over the 'easier' way.

A muscle car fanatic that ends up winning an Italian supercar somehow is more likely to sell/trade it for a car closer to his interests no matter how much faster/nicer the supercar is if he really wants a 1971 Plymouth "Hemi" 'Cuda convertible or two.

Outside of this mix of examples from different angles, not much I can say that hasn't been said already, both in official print and on boards.
I would never say there are no mages that aren't techno-wizards that like technology, but I would say the one's that rely on tech are the minority.
This seems perfectly reasonable to me, because if I could shoot bolts of energy out of my own hands, I'll take that over a gun that did more damage every time. Same logic applies to magic and to super-powers, if you can do something yourself, you take much greater pride in it.
Let's say there's some person you really don't like who is threating you, and that you are the violent sort. What would be more satisfying, working them over with a crowbar or reducing them to the same quivering mass with your bare hands? Now let's say your not even the violent sort, which leaves taking the abuse, trying to taser the lug (not really all that non-violent), or baffle and misdirect the fellow into charging headlong into a closet you bar shut behind him.

Thinking more and more on it, if I wanted to be hard-nosed about it, if I actually had a character running around who so strongly believed technology was superior, when belief in the power of magic is the core of it's power, I'd likely game it out as their magic being less affective against technology. Or if they never use any magic, likely restrict their magic and/or suggest changing OCC. Note, I wouldn't force this down my player's throats, though chances are someone would find this amusing enough to build a character concept around it even. 'The Wizard who Lost his Faith'. If nothing else that would make an interesting NPC..

ManDrake13 wrote:As a GM Armorlord, I have been known to deduct experience points from mages that depend on technology over magic because they are playing out of character.

That's just crappy.

Do you punish Man-At-Arms characters for thinking instead of shooting?

Killer Cyborg wrote:

ManDrake13 wrote:As a GM Armorlord, I have been known to deduct experience points from mages that depend on technology over magic because they are playing out of character.

That's just crappy.

Do you punish Man-At-Arms characters for thinking instead of shooting?

Experience isn't something I'll renege on. If they defeat a major threat or have a clever idea, I can't say they didn't.
On top of that, the mages tend to have an edge in material to use for clever ideas and non-fatal solutions. Though it is funny once the group gets to know each other's capabilities and the man-at-arms comes up with a clever idea for how the mage should use the magic and gets the points.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

ManDrake13 wrote:As a GM Armorlord, I have been known to deduct experience points from mages that depend on technology over magic because they are playing out of character.

That's just crappy.

Do you punish Man-At-Arms characters for thinking instead of shooting?

Actually, I think the key word there was "mages that depend on technology"

Magic-users should tend to go with Magic - that's what they've literally spent thier life's work on. While they certainly will consider using technology, it should be somehting of a last resort.

Ex: the group i'm playing with currently has just gotten a hold of a Spider-Skull walker and an APC. We lean heavily to magic and psionics. Whereas most groups (I would think) would be greatful for our good fortune, we are finding it somewhat of an inconvenience in having to travel with these things - Our juscier rides around on a dune-buggy, when not on his motorcycle, the Mind Melter is VERY possessive of her APV, and we have a couple of people riding robotic horses, and I'm on a Mega-Horse. For pretty much any of us, the APC would be a better trade-off, but it just doesn't interest us. It doesn't suit our characters, and thus we will find numerous reasons why we should sell it as oppose to keeping it.

This is not to say we wouldn't use it if the need arises, but for now it's more of a burden than a resource.

Now, for the guy that's Flying everywhere rather than using a hoverbike, I think that might be a bit too excessive - Why not g with a Phantom Mount? or have some type of creature and use the spell Winged Flight on it? I just see using the Fly spell as an all or nothing effect, which can really chew through your P.P.E., and is quite limited in speed

Malakai wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

ManDrake13 wrote:As a GM Armorlord, I have been known to deduct experience points from mages that depend on technology over magic because they are playing out of character.

That's just crappy.

Do you punish Man-At-Arms characters for thinking instead of shooting?

Actually, I think the key word there was "mages that depend on technology"

Magic-users should tend to go with Magic - that's what they've literally spent thier life's work on. While they certainly will consider using technology, it should be somehting of a last resort.

1. Usually not a great option for a first level mage (or for other low-levels).
2. Take your argument and insert other classes into it instead of mages.
Look how it works out:

"Men-at-Arms should tend to go with violence- that's what they've literally spent their life's work on. While they certainly will consider using non-violence, it should be something of a last resort."

Does that fit?
Sure, for some Men-At-Arms... but most good warriors believe that violence is a last resort, not a first.

"Rogue Scholars should tend to go with research- that's what they've literally spent their life's work on. While they will certainly consider acting without research, it should be something of a last resort."

And so on.
Instead of going down the list one by one, I'll show what happens with that philosophy when a T-Rex attacks:

Roll for initiative!
Quick, what are you doing?
Mage: "I'm going to cast a spell!"
Merc: "I'm going to shoot my gun!"
Rogue Scholar: "I'm going to pull out a book and look up 'T-Rexes'!"
City Rat: "I'm going to pick the T-Rex's pockets!"
Vagabond: "I'm going to... drive around in my rusty pickup truck. Maybe cook a meal, or speak spanish. "
Borg: "I'm going to drop my rifle and use my bionic claws, because they're bionic, and as a Borg, I only use non-bionic weapons as a last resort!"
Rogue Scientist: "I'm going to look at the T-Rex under a microscope!"
Burster: "I'm going to set the T-Rex on fire!"
Mind Mage: "I'm going to use Bio-Manipulation on the T-Rex!"
Glitterboy: "I'm going to fire my Boom Gun!"

Some of those work, some don't.

Now try another scenario.
This time, the PCs have to try to bargain for safe passage through an enemy kingdom.

Mage: "I'm going to cast a Domination!"
Merc: "I'm going to shoot my gun!"
Rogue Scholar: "I'm going to pull out a book and look up the major imports/exports of this kingdom!"
City Rat: "I'm going to pick the King's pocket!"
Vagabond: "I'm going to... drive around in my rusty pickup truck. Maybe cook a meal, or speak spanish. "
Borg: "I'm going to attack the king with my bionic claws"
Rogue Scientist: "I'm going to look at the king under a microscope!"
Burster: "I'm going to set the king on fire!"
Mind Mage: "I'm going to use Telepathy on the king!"
Glitterboy: "I'm going to fire my Boom Gun at the king!"

Again, some of these work... but most don't make much sense in the context.

Want to try some other scenarios?
-Seducing a barmaid
-Sneaking past guards
-Opening a locked door.
-Travel a long distance cross-country.

If every OCC/RCC is a two-dimensional cutout with an automatic default to use their primary area of expertise for everything, unless as a last resort, then they're not going to get very far.

If, on the other hand, each character's default is to look at the situation and do whatever makes sense, then they're going to accomplish a lot.
Because simple pragmatism is the best way to get things done.

And pragmatism means that you use whatever tool is best for the job, not whatever tool you are most familiar with.
If the job calls for a hammer, don't use a screwdriver, no matter how many years of practice you have with a screwdriver.
If a job calls for technology, use technology.
If a job calls for magic, use magic.

There can be exceptions, of course. There are people in Rifts Earth that are so prejudiced against technology (or magic) that they have a superstitious hatred of it, but among PCs this should be the exception, not the rule.

Ex: the group i'm playing with currently has just gotten a hold of a Spider-Skull walker and an APC. We lean heavily to magic and psionics. Whereas most groups (I would think) would be greatful for our good fortune, we are finding it somewhat of an inconvenience in having to travel with these things - Our juscier rides around on a dune-buggy, when not on his motorcycle, the Mind Melter is VERY possessive of her APV, and we have a couple of people riding robotic horses, and I'm on a Mega-Horse. For pretty much any of us, the APC would be a better trade-off, but it just doesn't interest us. It doesn't suit our characters, and thus we will find numerous reasons why we should sell it as oppose to keeping it.

Notice that the Mind Melter is using an APV, not propelling herself around with TK.

This is not to say we wouldn't use it if the need arises, but for now it's more of a burden than a resource.

Now, for the guy that's Flying everywhere rather than using a hoverbike, I think that might be a bit too excessive - Why not g with a Phantom Mount? or have some type of creature and use the spell Winged Flight on it? I just see using the Fly spell as an all or nothing effect, which can really chew through your P.P.E., and is quite limited in speed

Most spells chew through PPE pretty well if you rely on magic exclusively (until a last-resort situation arises).
Which is why technology is often more practical.
Phantom Mount and Winged Flight are great... as long as you don't have much gear, and as long as the weather is nice.
But a car, truck, or ATV is better in the long run.

Yes, a mage can get a TW converted vehicle. That way he can pat himself on the back for having a Magic Vehicle instead of a tech vehicle.
But they work the same.
There's absolutely no practical advantage in a TW powered ATV over a nuclear powered one.
And it's kind of silly to assume that people's professions rule their life to that extent.
It'd be like assuming that an electrician is going to prefer an electric car over an internal combustion engine.
Some might, but most are going to go with whatever is most practical.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Malakai wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

ManDrake13 wrote:As a GM Armorlord, I have been known to deduct experience points from mages that depend on technology over magic because they are playing out of character.

That's just crappy.

Do you punish Man-At-Arms characters for thinking instead of shooting?

Actually, I think the key word there was "mages that depend on technology"

Magic-users should tend to go with Magic - that's what they've literally spent thier life's work on. While they certainly will consider using technology, it should be somehting of a last resort.

1. Usually not a great option for a first level mage (or for other low-levels).
2. Take your argument and insert other classes into it instead of mages.
Look how it works out:

"Men-at-Arms should tend to go with violence- that's what they've literally spent their life's work on. While they certainly will consider using non-violence, it should be something of a last resort."

Does that fit?
Sure, for some Men-At-Arms... but most good warriors believe that violence is a last resort, not a first.

that is, of course, treating the Man-at-Arms as a cardboard cut-out. I personally believe that a man-at-Arms would think things through in a very tactical kind of way - I'm going to get through problem a by tactics (whatever they may be) - have a plan (and a back-up or two), identify objectives and resources, and then assign duties.

"Rogue Scholars should tend to go with research- that's what they've literally spent their life's work on. While they will certainly consider acting without research, it should be something of a last resort."

I think you missed the point of being a Rogue Scholar - it's about overcoming obstacle through your use of knowledge and learning, not about the learning itself. in this case, the research that they've already done, as indicated by thier skills, will help them overcome their problem

And so on.
Instead of going down the list one by one, I'll show what happens with that philosophy when a T-Rex attacks:

Roll for initiative!
Quick, what are you doing?
Mage: "I'm going to cast a spell!" - this is where having a good selection of spells really helps
Merc: "I'm going to shoot my gun!"tactics - is this going to be the best option?
Rogue Scholar: "I'm going to pull out a book and look up 'T-Rexes'!"this is plain stupid - they would be able to identify the strengths and weakness of the T-rex, such as remaining still to avoid detection, or some such
City Rat: "I'm going to pick the T-Rex's pockets!"How original, just like some other un-named RPG . . . it would probably be better to use the PROWL skill to avoid being noticed
Vagabond: "I'm going to... drive around in my rusty pickup truck. Maybe cook a meal, or speak spanish. "A diservice to the Vagabond community - again, it depends on thier skill selection
Borg: "I'm going to drop my rifle and use my bionic claws, because they're bionic, and as a Borg, I only use non-bionic weapons as a last resort!"Sure, grab on and hold on, using your BIONIC STRENGTH, so that you can remain out of reach of his massive jaws
Rogue Scientist: "I'm going to look at the T-Rex under a microscope!"god-forbid you actually carry around high-powered tranquilizers, so you can take a look at a large new specimen . . . .
Burster: "I'm going to set the T-Rex on fire!"Actually, I would set myself on fire via Flame Burst (self) first
Mind Mage: "I'm going to use Bio-Manipulation on the T-Rex!"excellent choice
Glitterboy: "I'm going to fire my Boom Gun!"excellent choice

Some of those work, some don't.

yes, some do, others I've changed, treating them as thinking people instead of cardboard cut-outs

Now try another scenario.
This time, the PCs have to try to bargain for safe passage through an enemy kingdom.

Mage: "I'm going to cast a Domination!"Gutsy, but could work
Merc: "I'm going to shoot my gun!"Again, you do a diservice to the Men-at-Arms - think about tactics, not "What can I kill?"
Rogue Scholar: "I'm going to pull out a book and look up the major imports/exports of this kingdom!"removing the book reference, this is actually a good idea - helps to barter for safe passage if you know what they want
City Rat: "I'm going to pick the King's pocket!"See the above comment from the T-Rex problem
Vagabond: "I'm going to... drive around in my rusty pickup truck. Maybe cook a meal, or speak spanish. "Ditto
Borg: "I'm going to attack the king with my bionic claws"Or, i'll offer my services as a BORG, so that I can have safe passage
Rogue Scientist: "I'm going to look at the king under a microscope!"as with the Borg, only solving some scientific problem
Burster: "I'm going to set the king on fire!"see Borg comment
Mind Mage: "I'm going to use Telepathy on the king!"I would start somewhere lower on the totem pole for such things, you don't want to offend, but with the information you can gain by such, it could really helpl in negotiating for safe passage
Glitterboy: "I'm going to fire my Boom Gun at the king!"Yes, because all a GB can do is fire it's Boom Gun . . . . see Borg

Again, some of these work... but most don't make much sense in the context.

Yes, again, if you treat them as non-thinking automatons, they won't work as well.

Want to try some other scenarios?
-Seducing a barmaid
-Sneaking past guards
-Opening a locked door.
-Travel a long distance cross-country.

If every OCC/RCC is a two-dimensional cutout with an automatic default to use their primary area of expertise for everything, unless as a last resort, then they're not going to get very far.

YES, if they are 2-dimensional cut-outs

I don't play such characters, nor do I play with those that do.

You can have them THINK and still focus on thier area of expertise, and they WILL go far

If, on the other hand, each character's default is to look at the situation and do whatever makes sense, then they're going to accomplish a lot.
Because simple pragmatism is the best way to get things done.

it should read, "and do wahatever makes sense to thier character"

And pragmatism means that you use whatever tool is best for the job, not whatever tool you are most familiar with.
If the job calls for a hammer, don't use a screwdriver, no matter how many years of practice you have with a screwdriver.
If a job calls for technology, use technology.
If a job calls for magic, use magic.

I think the problem your having is thinking that it is an either/or type of problem - i.e. you MUST use technology to solve Problem A, or you MUST use magic to solve Problem B

It is rarely like that. A better analogy would have been:
"if it calls for a ball-pin hammer, you don't use a mallet", or some such, in which case, youare argument quickly deflates (as well it should)

There can be exceptions, of course. There are people in Rifts Earth that are so prejudiced against technology (or magic) that they have a superstitious hatred of it, but among PCs this should be the exception, not the rule.

Ex: the group i'm playing with currently has just gotten a hold of a Spider-Skull walker and an APC. We lean heavily to magic and psionics. Whereas most groups (I would think) would be greatful for our good fortune, we are finding it somewhat of an inconvenience in having to travel with these things - Our juscier rides around on a dune-buggy, when not on his motorcycle, the Mind Melter is VERY possessive of her APV, and we have a couple of people riding robotic horses, and I'm on a Mega-Horse. For pretty much any of us, the APC would be a better trade-off, but it just doesn't interest us. It doesn't suit our characters, and thus we will find numerous reasons why we should sell it as oppose to keeping it.

Notice that the Mind Melter is using an APV, not propelling herself around with TK.and that's what i agree with

This is not to say we wouldn't use it if the need arises, but for now it's more of a burden than a resource.

Now, for the guy that's Flying everywhere rather than using a hoverbike, I think that might be a bit too excessive - Why not g with a Phantom Mount? or have some type of creature and use the spell Winged Flight on it? I just see using the Fly spell as an all or nothing effect, which can really chew through your P.P.E., and is quite limited in speed

Most spells chew through PPE pretty well if you rely on magic exclusively (until a last-resort situation arises).
Which is why technology is often more practical.
Phantom Mount and Winged Flight are great... as long as you don't have much gear, and as long as the weather is nice.
But a car, truck, or ATV is better in the long run.

How much gear do you carry around with you? and people have been hauling thier gear around on horses for centuries just fine

and as far as being better in the long run, Why? A Mega-horse has more MDC, can carry more, and repairs itself - the only thing you need is food, which is very plentiful (and you could be really cheesey and use Sustain), meanwhile a vehicle breaks down, needs maintenance, etc.

Yes, a mage can get a TW converted vehicle. That way he can pat himself on the back for having a Magic Vehicle instead of a tech vehicle.
But they work the same.
There's absolutely no practical advantage in a TW powered ATV over a nuclear powered one.

Depends on the enhancements you give it

And it's kind of silly to assume that people's professions rule their life to that extent.
It'd be like assuming that an electrician is going to prefer an electric car over an internal combustion engine.
Some might, but most are going to go with whatever is most practical

Given equal pricing between the two, I would take the electric car, and yes, I am studying Electrical Engineering. I would much rather be able to fix it on my own than have to take it to someone else

Malakai wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:"Men-at-Arms should tend to go with violence- that's what they've literally spent their life's work on. While they certainly will consider using non-violence, it should be something of a last resort."

Does that fit?
Sure, for some Men-At-Arms... but most good warriors believe that violence is a last resort, not a first.

that is, of course, treating the Man-at-Arms as a cardboard cut-out.

Exactly my complaint about the "Mages always rely on magic first" school of thought.

I personally believe that a man-at-Arms would think things through in a very tactical kind of way - I'm going to get through problem a by tactics (whatever they may be) - have a plan (and a back-up or two), identify objectives and resources, and then assign duties.

And not all of these plans would include a preference violence, just like not all of a mage's plans would include a preference for magic.

"Rogue Scholars should tend to go with research- that's what they've literally spent their life's work on. While they will certainly consider acting without research, it should be something of a last resort."

I think you missed the point of being a Rogue Scholar - it's about overcoming obstacle through your use of knowledge and learning, not about the learning itself. in this case, the research that they've already done, as indicated by thier skills, will help them overcome their problem

That's okay; I think you missed the point of being a mage.
It's about exploring the secrets of the universe and keeping an open mind.
Flexibility, not rigidity.

As for scholars, sure; If they have the right Lore skill, and make their roll, then they don't need to research.
But if they don't, then they do.

And so on.
Instead of going down the list one by one, I'll show what happens with that philosophy when a T-Rex attacks:

Roll for initiative!
Quick, what are you doing?
Mage: "I'm going to cast a spell!" - this is where having a good selection of spells really helps

Yup.
Or a good selection of weapons.

Preferably both.

Merc: "I'm going to shoot my gun!"tactics - is this going to be the best option?

We're not going with the BEST option, remember?
We're assuming that everybody goes with whatever they're most trained in, only seeking alternatives as a last resort.

Rogue Scholar: "I'm going to pull out a book and look up 'T-Rexes'!"this is plain stupid - they would be able to identify the strengths and weakness of the T-rex, such as remaining still to avoid detection, or some such

Only if they have Lore: Dinorsaurs, or Biology of Prehistoric Animals.
A lot of them won't.

City Rat: "I'm going to pick the T-Rex's pockets!"How original, just like some other un-named RPG . . . it would probably be better to use the PROWL skill to avoid being noticed

We're not going for originality; we're assuming that everybody goes with whatever they're most trained in, only seeking alternatives as a last resort.

But I admit I was rushed and didn't think that one through.
The City Rat would really have to make due with Streetwise, because that's their specialty.

Vagabond: "I'm going to... drive around in my rusty pickup truck. Maybe cook a meal, or speak spanish. "A diservice to the Vagabond community - again, it depends on thier skill selection

Nope.
Because, like mages, their skills don't matter.
Your theory is that no matter how many WPs a mage has picked up, he'll still prefer magic, because that's what he spends most of his time doing.
Vagabonds spend most of their time traveling around in a truck.

Borg: "I'm going to drop my rifle and use my bionic claws, because they're bionic, and as a Borg, I only use non-bionic weapons as a last resort!"Sure, grab on and hold on, using your BIONIC STRENGTH, so that you can remain out of reach of his massive jaws

That could also work as an example.

Still wouldn't make as much sense as just shooting the thing, though.

Besides, I don't know that bionic strength would be enough, not since New West souped-up dinos.

Rogue Scientist: "I'm going to look at the T-Rex under a microscope!"god-forbid you actually carry around high-powered tranquilizers, so you can take a look at a large new specimen . . . .

This rogue scientist specializes in microbiology, not zoology.
Since people can only ever do what they're best at, he's just screwed in this situation.

Burster: "I'm going to set the T-Rex on fire!"Actually, I would set myself on fire via Flame Burst (self) first

Does that do MD now (away from ley lines)?
Even if not, it might keep the dino away; lots of animals instinctively fear fire.

Mind Mage: "I'm going to use Bio-Manipulation on the T-Rex!"excellent choice

A lot of Mind Mage powers would work.
They're pretty versatile.

Glitterboy: "I'm going to fire my Boom Gun!"excellent choice

Yup.

Some of those work, some don't.

yes, some do, others I've changed, treating them as thinking people instead of cardboard cut-outs[/quote]

Nah, that goes against the point of this exercise.

If we were treating characters as thinking people, then mages would be able to do non-magical activities as more than a last resort.

Now try another scenario.
This time, the PCs have to try to bargain for safe passage through an enemy kingdom.

Mage: "I'm going to cast a Domination!"Gutsy, but could work

Yeah, that's kind of a double-or-nothing ploy.

Charismatic Aura would also be good, probably better.

Merc: "I'm going to shoot my gun!"Again, you do a diservice to the Men-at-Arms - think about tactics, not "What can I kill?"

How many skills in tactics does a Headhunter, Juicer, or Crazy have?
How many WPs?

WPs for the win.

Rogue Scholar: "I'm going to pull out a book and look up the major imports/exports of this kingdom!"removing the book reference, this is actually a good idea - helps to barter for safe passage if you know what they want

If he knows it off-hand, yup.
If not, then I guess he has to research it.

City Rat: "I'm going to pick the King's pocket!"See the above comment from the T-Rex problem

Yeah, in this case he'd use streetwise.
Which could be right handy IF they party has time to prepare before (or instead of) talking to the king.
But once they're talking to the king, then Streetwise wouldn't do much good.

Vagabond: "I'm going to... drive around in my rusty pickup truck. Maybe cook a meal, or speak spanish. "Ditto

As I said last time.
2-D cutouts.

Borg: "I'm going to attack the king with my bionic claws"Or, i'll offer my services as a BORG, so that I can have safe passage

Well, offering his services could work... if he's a slave borg.
Otherwise his area of expertise is combat, and we're assuming that everybody goes with whatever they're most trained in, only seeking alternatives as a last resort.

Rogue Scientist: "I'm going to look at the king under a microscope!"as with the Borg, only solving some scientific problem

Rogue scientists don't specialize in bartering; they specialize in science.
(This one in microscopes)

Burster: "I'm going to set the king on fire!"see Borg comment

Back atcha.

Mind Mage: "I'm going to use Telepathy on the king!"I would start somewhere lower on the totem pole for such things, you don't want to offend, but with the information you can gain by such, it could really helpl in negotiating for safe passage

Actually, telepathy would work pretty well. Unless the king has his own psychics, there's no way for him to know you're reading his mind, and he doesn't even get a save unless he suspects you're trying to read his mind.

Glitterboy: "I'm going to fire my Boom Gun at the king!"Yes, because all a GB can do is fire it's Boom Gun . . . . see Borg

Yup.
And see my answer.
If all a mage can do is cast spells, all a GB can do is shoot that boom gun.

Again, some of these work... but most don't make much sense in the context.

Yes, again, if you treat them as non-thinking automatons, they won't work as well.[/quote]

Exactly.

Want to try some other scenarios?
-Seducing a barmaid
-Sneaking past guards
-Opening a locked door.
-Travel a long distance cross-country.

If every OCC/RCC is a two-dimensional cutout with an automatic default to use their primary area of expertise for everything, unless as a last resort, then they're not going to get very far.

YES, if they are 2-dimensional cut-outs

I don't play such characters, nor do I play with those that do.

Me either; that's why my mages don't always rely on magic for most of their problems.
They rely on whatever works best and quickest.

You can have them THINK and still focus on thier area of expertise, and they WILL go far

Depends on how narrow you interpret their area of expertise.
Personally, I think a person's area of expertise may or may not have much to do with their job.
A Line Walker's area of expertise could be combat, or healing, or confidence games, or travel, or burglarly, or any number of things other than just casting spells.
Just because the mage has learned magic doesn't mean that his entire life revolves around magic... it's just as likely (or more likely) that he learned magic in order to help him in another pursuit, and that magic isn't his only tool towards that end.

But in this scenario, mages only exist to cast spells, so soldiers only exist to shoot guns, and vagabonds only exists to wander from place to place in a truck.

If, on the other hand, each character's default is to look at the situation and do whatever makes sense, then they're going to accomplish a lot.
Because simple pragmatism is the best way to get things done.

it should read, "and do wahatever makes sense to thier character"

Either way, it nets out the same.

And pragmatism means that you use whatever tool is best for the job, not whatever tool you are most familiar with.
If the job calls for a hammer, don't use a screwdriver, no matter how many years of practice you have with a screwdriver.
If a job calls for technology, use technology.
If a job calls for magic, use magic.

I think the problem your having is thinking that it is an either/or type of problem - i.e. you MUST use technology to solve Problem A, or you MUST use magic to solve Problem B
It is rarely like that. A better analogy would have been:
"if it calls for a ball-pin hammer, you don't use a mallet", or some such, in which case, you are argument quickly deflates (as well it should)

Actually, it's usually like that.

For example, say you've got a mage.
He's in combat.
He has spells, and he has a gun.

Which one does he use?

Whichever is the better choice.
I don't think I've ever seen them be equal choices.

It depends on what weapons you have, and what you're up against.
If you're up against something vulnerable to fire, and you're armed with a plasma rifle and a Call Lightning spell, then you go with the plasma.
If you've got a plasma rifle and a Fire Bolt spell, then you go with whichever does the most damage, or whichever one gives you the best chance to hit, depending on which is more important for that combat.
Or whichever one you can get off faster.
Or whichever one is more likely to get recharged first.
Or, most often, you make your choice based on all these factors.
At least, I do, and most of my characters do.

But whether or not you choose that way, the choices still aren't equal.

There can be exceptions, of course. There are people in Rifts Earth that are so prejudiced against technology (or magic) that they have a superstitious hatred of it, but among PCs this should be the exception, not the rule.

Most spells chew through PPE pretty well if you rely on magic exclusively (until a last-resort situation arises).
Which is why technology is often more practical.
Phantom Mount and Winged Flight are great... as long as you don't have much gear, and as long as the weather is nice.
But a car, truck, or ATV is better in the long run.

How much gear do you carry around with you? and people have been hauling thier gear around on horses for centuries just fine

Varies from character to character.
But in order to survive, we usually need a good transport for loot.
And, as mentioned, weather is a factor.

and as far as being better in the long run, Why? A Mega-horse has more MDC, can carry more, and repairs itself - the only thing you need is food, which is very plentiful (and you could be really cheesey and use Sustain), meanwhile a vehicle breaks down, needs maintenance, etc.

What's a Mega-horse?

And, again, weather.

Yes, a mage can get a TW converted vehicle. That way he can pat himself on the back for having a Magic Vehicle instead of a tech vehicle.
But they work the same.
There's absolutely no practical advantage in a TW powered ATV over a nuclear powered one.

Depends on the enhancements you give it

You can get those same enhancements on a nuclear powered ATV.

And it's kind of silly to assume that people's professions rule their life to that extent.
It'd be like assuming that an electrician is going to prefer an electric car over an internal combustion engine.
Some might, but most are going to go with whatever is most practical

Given equal pricing between the two, I would take the electric car, and yes, I am studying Electrical Engineering. I would much rather be able to fix it on my own than have to take it to someone else

Since most mages can't fix TW vehicles, that wouldn't be an issue for them.

Here's my view on it. It all depends on how the mage is made at character creation, the availabilty of spells and other magic stuff throughout the adventures they undertake. And how the player plays the Character.
There is no wrong way to play a mage. Now given all these factors and that I as both Player and GM like to have somewhat detailed Backgrounds for Characters. I deal with things in the game during play or aside from play if I feel (when I am GM) that a certain mage character is being played wrong. But this doesn't solely rely on the mage not using magic mostly this is a combination of factors that takes into account written background and how the character has been played throughout the Gaming sessions.

Marcethus wrote:There is no wrong way to play a mage.

Agreed.

Which is why I think it's crappy for GMs to dock XP when the players don't conform to some 2D stereotype that the GM has in his head for how a mage "should" behave.

[Note - avioding massive quote box]
1. the analogy of "Magic-users :: Magic and Men-at-Arms :: Violence" is the problem here. IMO it should be men-at-Arms :: Tactics, which is a more thinking, well-rounded character than a "what do I shoot next?" one

2. The first applies to the second as well, since you carried the MaA :: V here as well. using my analogy, they would both apply equally

3a. I never said "don't be flexible" - magic is a very flexible resource. Infact, the magic-user has probably chosen thier path BECAUSE of that flexibility, which is why, when a problem presents itself, they would look into Magic for a solution (or, more likely, several)

3b. Right, but remeber, Rogue Scholars get dozens of skills, including AT LEAST 4 that are from the Technical Skills (where Lores are) - they are far more likely than others to have the right Lore

5. a good selection of spells is more importan tthan a good weapon, and ijn the end, a good selection of spells will inlcude offensive (i.e. "weapon") spells anyways

6. Merc is going to think about tactics, going with the best option - not just shooting at whatever's in front of him. any soldier knows it's stupid to engage an enemey you are not equipped to defeat or escape from.

7. how about Lore: Cattle & Animals? or Zoology? Xenology (with a penalty)? Anthropolgy and/or archeaology (in reference to cultures who may have dealt with living among such creatures)? the list goes on. Again, a good skill selection is key to a rogue scholar.

8. the "originality" apsect was treating the City rat as a Thief AND ONLY A THIEF. remember they can be many variations, and while I realise that not every City Rat has rowl, a good majority of them do (considernig they must have 3 skills from either Rogue or Physical class, of which Prowl is in BOTH). City rats rely on thier skills - they get a lot of them, in adition to (sometimes) a few cybernetics.

9a. Here, you're wrong - a Vagabonds key characteristic IS their choice of skills

9b. My concern would be "Why is your mage picking up so many WPs?" If you INTEND on having a combat-oriented mage, then it would make sense. And there are plenty of MAGIC weapons that they could use as well, in addition to any tech weapons they choose to use. But It would make more sense to have predominately TW weapons anyways

10. Depends on how buff your rifle is - In most cases, it's not going to drop a t-Rex with only one (or even a few) shots. Actually, your probably better off running away, using your BIONIC SPEED to outrun the T-Rex.

11. Micro-biology, but NO training in Zoology? Well, even given that, you're likely to know a thing or three about contagious diseases, which may help but the T-Rex out of commission, and using that dart-rifle I mentioned before.

12. It will at least give him MDC protection at the very least, and yes, many creatures are naturally afraid of fire, so it works that way as well.

13 and 14. - agreed

15. Actually, that WAS the point of the exercise - characters using their specialty in overcoming a situation. I chose to treat each character as thinkning sensibly while still working in their area of expertise, were you had them blndly act without consideration of the problem.

16. agree

17. Any Mercenary-type character that does not know how to negotiate is not going to be very successful. Nor is one who does not know the value of restraint.

18. Well, Appraise Goods would work well here, as well as History: Post-Apocalypse, both of which EVERY Rogue Scholar has. And uyes, if all else fails, do some research (which, I might add, does NOT have to be strictly in the "going to the library" format)

19. Well, YOU never said that they were in front of the King, so he could very well be able to blend in and move through the city without every being known, or once found, use his skills to try and escape.

20. And, as I said last time, the focus of the Vagabond is in his skills, which I might add include BEGGING, BARTERING, and STREETWISE, all of which are applicable to the above scenario

21. Well, if we assume his area is combat, services could mean helping guard the kingdom, trainning some new recruits, performing some mission for the Kingdom, etc - basically anything that a combat-character would be proficient in.

22. So, he doesn't specialize in bartering - he can still help cure an epidemic, clean up the kingdoms utilities, or deal with anything with bacteria, algea, or other micro-organisms. Afterwhich he's granted free passage as payment (or part of payment) for his services

23. Does it make sense to burn the King? NO. Does it make sense to offer one's services in exchange for safe apssage? YES. Again, if you do SENSIBLE THINGS, while sticking to your area of expertise, you will go far.

24. Yes, but your Assuming the King is completely normal - and you know what they say about assumptions . . . .

25. A GB can also offer his services. remeber that most communities will offer discounted or free services to Glitter Boys who aid them. I would see safe passage as easily granted to one. Yes, his focus is his armor, but he need not necessarily bring it to bear against the Kingdom - thier enemies are probably better targets.

26. we agree, but you didn't do so in the examples above, whioch is where we have issues

27. Relying on magic is not 2-Dimensional, it's playing to your strength.

28. "Best and Quickest" is not always the best choice form a RP standpoint

29a. This is where we differ. your job (or at least your OCC) IS your area of expertise. Yes, you can be a LLW specializing in "combat", but that will likely mean that your spell selection will reflect your tendency FOR COMBAT, as would your skill selection.

If you spent your life training to be a LLW, why would youslap on some armor, grab an energy rifle, and try to be a normal soldier? Why not have jsut trained to be a soldier first?

29b. Your limiting it too much on some OCCs, and your aplpying an "only", when it should be "(strongly) prefer". and ask any soldier if the only thing they did, or learned how to do, while in the service was shoot a gun - they will tell you no

30. not really, just because the player knows what would be the best option does not mean their character is going to do that - it may not be appropriate for ther character to do.

31. actually it's not - the scenario you put up there can be dealt with by Magic and a Gun. It may not matter that he's vulnerable to fire if you can't hit him, but Call Lightning always hits. Also, you may be limited in the ammo for your gun - PPE you can get back later, while the next town could be a weeks risde away or more.

But, in your analysis, you never asked "which would be more appropriate for the character?" that, I think, is an important factor too.

32. weather really isn't that much of a factor - so it rains, you should have packed your stuff to not get wet in the first place. And how much "loot" are your regularly carrying around with you?

33. See Warlords of Russia - over 200 MDC, can carry 4 tons and pull 15 - enough for most any loot I would need to bring. so it rains, that's what a raincoat is for.

34. Granted, but still, what do you do if the Nuclear Power plant has trouble? - technology tends to be more failure-prone than TW, if for nothing else than the amount of components involved.

35. see the above post, in regards to likliness of failure

Back to the original question -

macksting wrote:

ManDrake13 wrote:...and the lunacy of a mage ever using any technology at all.

Technowizards aside, as they're a special case, are there no pragmatic magi out there? Belief in magic isn't hard to come by, although absolute faith in magic might be a little harder to come by. Certainly I'd expect most magi to be rather mystical. However, if magic comes naturally to your species, particularly, I'd expect a mage of your kind to be more pragmatic about the whole thing. From everything I've read, modern weapons in Rifts have more range and often more damage per round than a magic spell, albeit with far less trickery and non-damage benefit.

Depends on your goal and spell selection, see below

Might I point out that ley line walkers use gas masks. This seems... pragmatic.

I'll draw up three examples for sanity's sake, and we can argue about them. It's a start, yes? We'll assume the magi presented below are squishy humans or D-Bees of a similar nature. The use of "he" is neuter.
Example 1: A mixed party with one mage, standard Ley Line Walker or similar invoker, low level. No full-party vehicle, lots of shovels.
Example 2: A mixed party with one mage, as above, but mid- or high-level. ATV or APC available.
Example 3: A whole cadre of magi.

We'll assume an ambush for the moment. GMs are cruel, so it happens to the best of us. We'll also assume the first volley was survived without losses due to armor.

In Example 1, it is advisable for the mage to cover his butt fast. This implies spells to me; he knows where his skills are best used. Invisibility isn't a bad thought, as it allows some latitude before he gets to more powerful spells, and if he's wearing any MDC armor at all (say, leather) it'll stack nicely. Even when his self defense is covered, he's better off using something more helpful than a laser or particle beam, since he should have spells such as Carpet of Adhesion or Blinding Flash to mess with opponents. When he's disabled them as far as his limited spell selection allows, though, why use magic when a laser deals more damage? Few firefights should go on that long, but it's Rifts. It happens.

OK, well, lets see what a first level LLW could potentially have in thier spell list:
1st level: Blinding Flash, Cloud of Smoke, Thunderclap
2nd level: Befuddle, Fear, Levitation,
3rd level: Armor of Ithan, Fingers of the Wind, Invisibility: Simple, Magic Shield, Paralysis: Lesser
4th level: Blind, Carpet of Adhesion, Electric Arc, Energy Field, Fire Bolt, Magic Net, Multiple Images, Shadow Meld, Trance

any of these could be very helpful in a fight, and thankfully, they all only take a single action to cast. Admittntly, there are only a couple of damaging spells, but the do compare nicely with damage, if not range, or normal weapons. your focus at this point is harring your opponents and assiting your friends, or atleast escaping vs eliminating. And yes, at this point in thier career, they are more likely to use technology, simply because they lack the mystical resources to do otherwise.

Example 2, the mage stays in the APC for a moment to get those ass-covering spells up, then emerges free of armor or obstruction to rain hellfire on the opponents. Here, magical damage might actually compete at a large expenditure of PPE. If we assume he has other sources of PPE or powerful magical items at his disposal, he may never pull out a modern weapon. However, see note below...

Actually, depending on what spells the GM allows to be chosen / learned, they can do very well. My favorite is Chain Lightning (Library of Bletherad). granted range is not the best, but at X level, you can hit X targets, dealing XD6 to each of them, and all it takes is 2 actions and 40 PPE - better than any tech weapon. Also, don't forget about Agony, Compulsion, Domination, or Mental Blast (a particularly good one, since it bypasses armor AND sdc, and can be cast in a single action). Meteor, while costly, can be very effective in clearing out a whole group (remeber, everything in the 40-ft radius takes 1D6x10+ 2xlevel in damage), for a 10th level caster, thats a minmum of 30 MDC, and can hit targets up to 2,000 ft away.

Example 3, same circumstances. After the ass-covering spells are completed, each mage can then turn to a different direction, disabling opponents. That only makes the question happen sooner. Why use magic damage spells when they often have less power than a laser?

because, depending on the spell, they are NOT less powerful than a laser. Call Lightning, Ballistic Fire, Fire Ball, Lightblade, Powerbolt, Sub-Particle Acceleration, etc all have higher damaged at higher levels, while the tech weapons (barring power creep) will never change.

Finally, what if the ambushing opponents are striking with modern weapons from maximum range? Assume lasers rather than air strikes, but you get the idea.

I welcome any counterarguments. My familiarity is poor, so this is a fine opportunity to correct any misunderstandings!

Well, in regards to being assaulted from maximum range, this is where other spells come into play, such as various teleports and/or invisibilites. Teleport Self, while expensive, will remove you from ANY weapons range (they would need to reaquire even if using missiles). If you have concern for you friends, might I suggest casting Wall of Defense before doing something more costly - it will give you a few to several rounds of protection against enemies at such a range, and you can use those to plan a better escape. I personal have found the Shifter to be one of the best magic-using characters to have around, particularly when linked to a God of Magic - the extra PPE and spells have done very well, in addition to the higher spell strength. And Shifters get some casting perks on various spells as well as MORE spells per level than LLW (go figure).

Also, a note about the efficacy of Rune Weapons - I used to wonder why they cost so much, when they didn't seem to be worth it comparatively speaking. after obtaining and using a Call Satff, I have found the are indeed VERY PWERFUL items, and can indeed turn the tides of battle. being able to cast spells without dipping into your PPE cna be very helpful, especially when they are costly spells to begin with.

Malakai wrote:[Note - avioding massive quote box]

Okay, but I may not know what you're talking about without the context.

1. the analogy of "Magic-users :: Magic and Men-at-Arms :: Violence" is the problem here. IMO it should be men-at-Arms :: Tactics, which is a more thinking, well-rounded character than a "what do I shoot next?" one

2. The first applies to the second as well, since you carried the MaA :: V here as well. using my analogy, they would both apply equally

IMO, it should be Mages :: Imagination and Mental Flexibility.

3a. I never said "don't be flexible" - magic is a very flexible resource. Infact, the magic-user has probably chosen thier path BECAUSE of that flexibility, which is why, when a problem presents itself, they would look into Magic for a solution (or, more likely, several)

Ruling out anything BUT magic as anything but a last resort is inflexible.

3b. Right, but remeber, Rogue Scholars get dozens of skills, including AT LEAST 4 that are from the Technical Skills (where Lores are) - they are far more likely than others to have the right Lore

Yup.
But "more likely" isn't necessarily "likely."

5. a good selection of spells is more importan tthan a good weapon, and ijn the end, a good selection of spells will inlcude offensive (i.e. "weapon") spells anyways

Yup.
Of course, I don't know which part this is responding to.

I'll take a stab here by pointing out that sometimes weapons are better than spells.

6. Merc is going to think about tactics, going with the best option - not just shooting at whatever's in front of him. any soldier knows it's stupid to engage an enemey you are not equipped to defeat or escape from.

A mage is going to keep an open mind to all his options, not just casting spells at whatever's in front of him.

7. how about Lore: Cattle & Animals? or Zoology? Xenology (with a penalty)? Anthropolgy and/or archeaology (in reference to cultures who may have dealt with living among such creatures)? the list goes on. Again, a good skill selection is key to a rogue scholar.

No idea what this one's about.

8. the "originality" apsect was treating the City rat as a Thief AND ONLY A THIEF. remember they can be many variations, and while I realise that not every City Rat has rowl, a good majority of them do (considernig they must have 3 skills from either Rogue or Physical class, of which Prowl is in BOTH). City rats rely on thier skills - they get a lot of them, in adition to (sometimes) a few cybernetics.

I already admitted that the majority of a City Rat's skill and training would be Streetwise, not prowl or pick pockets.

9a. Here, you're wrong - a Vagabonds key characteristic IS their choice of skills

Let's check the description of the OCC:
"The unskilled character is usually a spirited individual full of life and curiosity. However, they are rarely very educated in any formal sense, nor literate, and seldom seek higher education. They tend to live by the seat of their pants and rely on their wits and natural abilities/attributes."

But hey, what does the Rifts book know?

I mean, it claims that Line Walkers "are often literate, may study areas of science and have no aversion to using high-tech weapons, vehicles, and equipment."

9b. My concern would be "Why is your mage picking up so many WPs?" If you INTEND on having a combat-oriented mage, then it would make sense.

Huh?
How many WPs are you talking about?

And there are plenty of MAGIC weapons that they could use as well, in addition to any tech weapons they choose to use. But It would make more sense to have predominately TW weapons anyways

That depends on how fast you're going to be blowing through ammo, and what sort of recharging facilities you've got.

10. Depends on how buff your rifle is - In most cases, it's not going to drop a t-Rex with only one (or even a few) shots. Actually, your probably better off running away, using your BIONIC SPEED to outrun the T-Rex.

What, and abandon the rest of the party?

11. Micro-biology, but NO training in Zoology? Well, even given that, you're likely to know a thing or three about contagious diseases, which may help but the T-Rex out of commission, and using that dart-rifle I mentioned before.

Don't remember seeing that in their equipment list.
And what are you doing giving them WPs?
They're supposed to THINK their way out of stuff, what with being 2-D characters who only break outside their forte as a last resort.

15. Actually, that WAS the point of the exercise - characters using their specialty in overcoming a situation. I chose to treat each character as thinkning sensibly while still working in their area of expertise, were you had them blndly act without consideration of the problem.

Choosing magic over everything else is "acting blindly" too, so I was just sticking with the theme.

17. Any Mercenary-type character that does not know how to negotiate is not going to be very successful. Nor is one who does not know the value of restraint.

Yeah.
I guess 2-D characters just aren't going to be that successful.
Who knew?

18. Well, Appraise Goods would work well here, as well as History: Post-Apocalypse, both of which EVERY Rogue Scholar has. And uyes, if all else fails, do some research (which, I might add, does NOT have to be strictly in the "going to the library" format)

Don't remember what this one was about.

19. Well, YOU never said that they were in front of the King, so he could very well be able to blend in and move through the city without every being known, or once found, use his skills to try and escape.

If they're shooting at the king, odds are they're near him.

20. And, as I said last time, the focus of the Vagabond is in his skills, which I might add include BEGGING, BARTERING, and STREETWISE, all of which are applicable to the above scenario

Actually, now that I've reread the Vagabond entry, they don't like using skills at all. They rely on their attributes.

Handy here if he has a high MA/PB, but otherwise useless.

21. Well, if we assume his area is combat, services could mean helping guard the kingdom, trainning some new recruits, performing some mission for the Kingdom, etc - basically anything that a combat-character would be proficient in.

Nope.
Just shooting.

Just like mages can have all sorts of skills, including WPs, but they refuse to use them except as a last resort.

22. So, he doesn't specialize in bartering - he can still help cure an epidemic, clean up the kingdoms utilities, or deal with anything with bacteria, algea, or other micro-organisms. Afterwhich he's granted free passage as payment (or part of payment) for his services

Hm.
If he's a good talker, that will work.

But he's not a good talker.
He never bothered to talk about anything outside his area of expertise, so he's really boring.

23. Does it make sense to burn the King? NO. Does it make sense to offer one's services in exchange for safe apssage? YES. Again, if you do SENSIBLE THINGS, while sticking to your area of expertise, you will go far.

It doesn't make sense to be a 2-D character in the first place.
We're not going with sense here, we're going with the idea that people don't do anything other than their strongest area of expertise except as a last resort.
And a Burster's area of expertise is making fires.

24. Yes, but your Assuming the King is completely normal - and you know what they say about assumptions . . . .

Yeah, it might not work out.
But that's what you get relying exclusively on your powers.

25. A GB can also offer his services. remeber that most communities will offer discounted or free services to Glitter Boys who aid them. I would see safe passage as easily granted to one. Yes, his focus is his armor, but he need not necessarily bring it to bear against the Kingdom - thier enemies are probably better targets.

Hm.
They're typically professional mercenaries, so I might have to give that one to you.
Unless he's already working for somebody, and doesn't have the time to take on a second job.

26. we agree, but you didn't do so in the examples above, whioch is where we have issues

Do what now?

27. Relying on magic is not 2-Dimensional, it's playing to your strength.

Except that casting spells is not always the strongest option.
And, as I said, what a character's strength IS depends on the character, NOT on the OCC.
A Line-Walker can be a thief, a scholar, a mercenary, a soldier, a diplomat, a gigolo, or any number of other things, with magic as a means to the ends of his overall plans.

28. "Best and Quickest" is not always the best choice form a RP standpoint

YEah... don't know what that one's about either.

29a. This is where we differ. your job (or at least your OCC) IS your area of expertise. Yes, you can be a LLW specializing in "combat", but that will likely mean that your spell selection will reflect your tendency FOR COMBAT, as would your skill selection.

Unless you prefer guns and buffing spells.

If you spent your life training to be a LLW, why would youslap on some armor, grab an energy rifle, and try to be a normal soldier? Why not have jsut trained to be a soldier first?

Who said you'd be a NORMAL solder?
You'd have guns and spells, the best of both worlds.

And why wouldn't you slap on armor?
And why wouldn't you use an energy weapon?
Mages can use them about as well as anybody else.

29b. Your limiting it too much on some OCCs, and your aplpying an "only", when it should be "(strongly) prefer". and ask any soldier if the only thing they did, or learned how to do, while in the service was shoot a gun - they will tell you no

Look over the list of skills for any mage.
Then try to tell me that all they do, or have learned to do, is to cast spells.

30. not really, just because the player knows what would be the best option does not mean their character is going to do that - it may not be appropriate for ther character to do.

No idea what you're talking about here either.

31. actually it's not - the scenario you put up there can be dealt with by Magic and a Gun. It may not matter that he's vulnerable to fire if you can't hit him, but Call Lightning always hits. Also, you may be limited in the ammo for your gun - PPE you can get back later, while the next town could be a weeks risde away or more.

Sometimes that could well be the case.
Other times you could be low on PPE and have a half-dozen spare clips for your gun.
Do whichever is best for the situation, don't rely on one option exclusively.

But, in your analysis, you never asked "which would be more appropriate for the character?" that, I think, is an important factor too.

Okay.

32. weather really isn't that much of a factor - so it rains, you should have packed your stuff to not get wet in the first place. And how much "loot" are your regularly carrying around with you?

Varies.
But we kill a skelebot, we're hauling it off with us if we can, and selling it for scrap.
We take a bunch of rifles off some bandits, we're taking those too.

33. See Warlords of Russia - over 200 MDC, can carry 4 tons and pull 15 - enough for most any loot I would need to bring. so it rains, that's what a raincoat is for.

That's great... if you're in Russia.

How much does it cost?

34. Granted, but still, what do you do if the Nuclear Power plant has trouble? - technology tends to be more failure-prone than TW, if for nothing else than the amount of components involved.

Nah, I don't really buy that.
Not for MDC vehicles.
Wear and tear is SDC damage.

35. see the above post, in regards to likliness of failure

No idea what this one's about either.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Malakai wrote:[Note - avioding massive quote box]

Okay, but I may not know what you're talking about without the context.

Granted, I deal with the confusions first

5. a good selection of spells is more important than a good weapon, and in the end, a good selection of spells will include offensive (i.e. "weapon") spells anyways

Yup.
Of course, I don't know which part this is responding to.

I'll take a stab here by pointing out that sometimes weapons are better than spells.

This was in response to a mage having both a good selection of spells and a good selection of weapons - for a mage, there no reason his spells SHOULDN'T be his weapons

7. how about Lore: Cattle & Animals? or Zoology? Xenology (with a penalty)? Anthropology and/or archaeology (in reference to cultures who may have dealt with living among such creatures)? the list goes on. Again, a good skill selection is key to a rogue scholar.

No idea what this one's about.

This was concerning the Skills that a Rogue Scholar has - any of the above would have helped in a confrontation with a T-Rex

9b. My concern would be "Why is your mage picking up so many WPs?" If you INTEND on having a combat-oriented mage, then it would make sense.

Huh?
How many WPs are you talking about?\

you mentioned "that no matter how many WPs a mage has picked up, he'll still prefer magic, because that's what he spends most of his time doing."

I was wondering WHY your mage picked so many WPs in the first place

18. Well, Appraise Goods would work well here, as well as History: Post-Apocalypse, both of which EVERY Rogue Scholar has. And yes, if all else fails, do some research (which, I might add, does NOT have to be strictly in the "going to the library" format)

Don't remember what this one was about.

This was in reference to the Rogue Scholar looking up the imports and exports of the Kingdom

26. we agree, but you didn't do so in the examples above, which is where we have issues

Do what now?

Treat them as thinking characters

28. "Best and Quickest" is not always the best choice form a RP standpoint

YEah... don't know what that one's about either.

it's about taking things into context where your character's actions are concerned. It may make much more sense for a Shifter to summon forth all manner of demons and undead to fight in a battle, but it may not make sense for THAT CHARACTER to do so. If one sticks to pragmatism as the ultimate way to go, then individuality goes out the window, because being "pragmatic" means going with the "best" solution, without considering if it would be right for the individual to actual do such.

30. not really, just because the player knows what would be the best option does not mean their character is going to do that - it may not be appropriate for their character to do.

No idea what you're talking about here either.

refer to the above concerning pragmatism - just because it would be the "Best and Quickest" does not mean it would be right for the CHARACTER - so it does NOT net out to be the same

35. see the above post, in regards to likeliness of failure

No idea what this one's about either.

it was concerning the fact that even though a mage may not be able to repair TW equipment, they would be less prone to failure by virtue of their simplistic construction

On to the rest of it

Killer Cyborg wrote:

1. the analogy of "Magic-users :: Magic and Men-at-Arms :: Violence" is the problem here. IMO it should be men-at-Arms :: Tactics, which is a more thinking, well-rounded character than a "what do I shoot next?" one

2. The first applies to the second as well, since you carried the MaA :: V here as well. using my analogy, they would both apply equally

IMO, it should be Mages :: Imagination and Mental Flexibility.

I would think ALL characters should be imaginative and mentally flexible

And, before you go down that road, let me just say that you can still be imaginative and mentally flexible, while still focusing on your area of expertise

3a. I never said "don't be flexible" - magic is a very flexible resource. In fact, the magic-user has probably chosen their path BECAUSE of that flexibility, which is why, when a problem presents itself, they would look into Magic for a solution (or, more likely, several)

Ruling out anything BUT magic as anything but a last resort is inflexible.

That’s a matter of opinion – Like I said, magic in and of itself is very flexible

A possible analogy would be tools made of one type of material over tools made up of another – they are still tools

3b. Right, but remember, Rogue Scholars get dozens of skills, including AT LEAST 4 that are from the Technical Skills (where Lores are) - they are far more likely than others to have the right Lore

Yup.
But "more likely" isn't necessarily "likely."

So, you’re never guaranteed to have what you need for EVERY eventuality – that goes with any character.

6. Merc is going to think about tactics, going with the best option - not just shooting at whatever's in front of him. Any soldier knows it's stupid to engage an enemy you are not equipped to defeat or escape from.

A mage is going to keep an open mind to all his options, not just casting spells at whatever's in front of him.

Yes, but the First consideration SHOULD be magic – it’s what they’re best at

8. the "originality" aspect was treating the City rat as a Thief AND ONLY A THIEF. remember they can be many variations, and while I realize that not every City Rat has prowl, a good majority of them do (considering they must have 3 skills from either Rogue or Physical class, of which Prowl is in BOTH). City rats rely on thier skills - they get a lot of them, in addition to (sometimes) a few cybernetics.

I already admitted that the majority of a City Rat's skill and training would be Streetwise, not prowl or pick pockets.

That is only one of several skills they have – the City Rat is a Skills-Class, meaning that they rely on their skills to survive and thrive (as oppose to Magic, Psychic Powers, or PA / Robots). And most City rats are going to have Prowl as one of their skills.

9a. Here, you're wrong - a Vagabonds key characteristic IS their choice of skills

Let's check the description of the OCC:
"The unskilled character is usually a spirited individual full of life and curiosity. However, they are rarely very educated in any formal sense, nor literate, and seldom seek higher education. They tend to live by the seat of their pants and rely on their wits and natural abilities/attributes."

But hey, what does the Rifts book know?

I mean, it claims that Line Walkers "are often literate, may study areas of science and have no aversion to using high-tech weapons, vehicles, and equipment."

Key words are “formal [education]” and “higher education” – they are more likely to have the “hands-on” type of skills, or those that would not require much “book” knowledge. They are another one of the Skill-Classes

And there are plenty of MAGIC weapons that they could use as well, in addition to any tech weapons they choose to use. But It would make more sense to have predominately TW weapons anyways

That depends on how fast you're going to be blowing through ammo, and what sort of recharging facilities you've got.

If they’re TW, you ARE their recharging facility. If not, then you’ve got another concern

10. Depends on how buff your rifle is - In most cases, it's not going to drop a t-Rex with only one (or even a few) shots. Actually, your probably better off running away, using your BIONIC SPEED to outrun the T-Rex.

What, and abandon the rest of the party?

When did we start considering the rest of the party? If you want to go that route, then it make MORE sense for character’s to be specialized. In either case, they should still consider their area of expertise first.

11. Micro-biology, but NO training in Zoology? Well, even given that, you're likely to know a thing or three about contagious diseases, which may help but the T-Rex out of commission, and using that dart-rifle I mentioned before.

Don't remember seeing that in their equipment list.
And what are you doing giving them WPs?
They're supposed to THINK their way out of stuff, what with being 2-D characters who only break outside their forte as a last resort.

Actually, they do have their choice of either WP Energy Pistol or Energy Rifle – don’t think it particularly fits. And it IS a WP that makes sense for the character to have, and it’s one skill choice (and GMs would probably allow the switch from Energy Rifle to Bolt-Action Rifle anyways)

And using their SKILLS, especially SCIENTIFIC ONES would be thinking their way out of a problem.

15. Actually, that WAS the point of the exercise - characters using their specialty in overcoming a situation. I chose to treat each character as thinking sensibly while still working in their area of expertise, were you had them blindly act without consideration of the problem.

Choosing magic over everything else is "acting blindly" too, so I was just sticking with the theme.

No, thinking magic FIRST would be a caster playing to their strength. I never said magic-users COULDN’T use anything else, just that MAGIC would be their first choice(s). Same goes for other classes and their areas of expertise

Now, if you had said
Mage: "I'm going to cast Call Lightning!", then I would agree that it would be acting blindly – there are likely better alternatives, but they would all involve casting a spell

17. Any Mercenary-type character that does not know how to negotiate is not going to be very successful. Nor is one who does not know the value of restraint.

Yeah.
I guess 2-D characters just aren't going to be that successful.
Who knew?

I’m not sure why you keep thinking that characters who play to their strengths and consider how they can overcome a problem using what they’re best at FIRST as 2-D characters

19. Well, YOU never said that they were in front of the King, so he could very well be able to blend in and move through the city without every being known, or once found, use his skills to try and escape.

If they're shooting at the king, odds are they're near him.

But that’s arbitrary placement that prevents them form using their skills to avoid such a situation first. In the spirit of considering everything, however, the City Rat still has much at his disposal: Barter would probably be best here, which ALL City Rats get anyways

20. And, as I said last time, the focus of the Vagabond is in his skills, which I might add include BEGGING, BARTERING, and STREETWISE, all of which are applicable to the above scenario

Actually, now that I've reread the Vagabond entry, they don't like using skills at all. They rely on their attributes.

Handy here if he has a high MA/PB, but otherwise useless.

As I said before, Vagabonds are a Skill-Class – that’s what they use, in lieu of MAGIC, PSIONICS, and HIGH-TECH resources.

21. Well, if we assume his area is combat, services could mean helping guard the kingdom, training some new recruits, performing some mission for the Kingdom, etc - basically anything that a combat-character would be proficient in.

Nope.
Just shooting.

Just like mages can have all sorts of skills, including WPs, but they refuse to use them except as a last resort.

You make no sense – Why wouldn’t a BORG offer to trade his services for safe passage? It’s still relying on his area of expertise FIRST. Why must offer services be different from actually doing them? “I can shoot” does not mean I must shoot the person in front of me.

22. So, he doesn't specialize in bartering - he can still help cure an epidemic, clean up the kingdoms utilities, or deal with anything with bacteria, algae, or other micro-organisms. After which he's granted free passage as payment (or part of payment) for his services

Hm.
If he's a good talker, that will work.

But he's not a good talker.
He never bothered to talk about anything outside his area of expertise, so he's really boring.

Arbitrary limitation. Please re-read the description for the Rogue Scientist – this is no book-worm or laboratory shut-in. It is much more likely that, in the course of his travels, he would have had to make similar arrangements elsewhere.

23. Does it make sense to burn the King? NO. Does it make sense to offer one's services in exchange for safe passage? YES. Again, if you do SENSIBLE THINGS, while sticking to your area of expertise, you will go far.

It doesn't make sense to be a 2-D character in the first place.
We're not going with sense here, we're going with the idea that people don't do anything other than their strongest area of expertise except as a last resort.
And a Burster's area of expertise is making fires.

Again, just because I can do [X] does not mean I can’t offer to do [X] in service to someone else – it’s still playing to the character’s strength

24. Yes, but your Assuming the King is completely normal - and you know what they say about assumptions . . . .

Yeah, it might not work out.
But that's what you get relying exclusively on your powers.

Hence why I said to do this on someone lower on the totem pole – less-likely to be one of those extraordinary people that it would cause problems with

27. Relying on magic is not 2-Dimensional, it's playing to your strength.

Except that casting spells is not always the strongest option.
And, as I said, what a character's strength IS depends on the character, NOT on the OCC.
A Line-Walker can be a thief, a scholar, a mercenary, a soldier, a diplomat, a gigolo, or any number of other things, with magic as a means to the ends of his overall plans.

Yes, and as a LLW specializing in [blank], he’s much more likely to use MAGIC to help him do [blank]. Why spend money / resources on TECH when he can use MAGIC to achieve the same ends?

29a. This is where we differ. your job (or at least your OCC) IS your area of expertise. Yes, you can be a LLW specializing in "combat", but that will likely mean that your spell selection will reflect your tendency FOR COMBAT, as would your skill selection.

Unless you prefer guns and buffing spells.

Still shows your tendency FOR COMBAT, and again, your relying on MAGIC FIRST – since it’s almost assuredly (even for a pragmatist) that your casting MAGICAL armor OVER your tech suit, and that you would be relying on MAGIC for increased bonuses and such (whereas the TECH way would be to become a Juicer / Borg)

If you spent your life training to be a LLW, why would you slap on some armor, grab an energy rifle, and try to be a normal soldier? Why not have just trained to be a soldier first?

Who said you'd be a NORMAL solder?
You'd have guns and spells, the best of both worlds.

And why wouldn't you slap on armor?
And why wouldn't you use an energy weapon?
Mages can use them about as well as anybody else.

Why wouldn’t you throw on some MAGICAL armor? - easy to renew than tech armor, and often offers more protection
Why wouldn’t you use a MAGICAL energy weapon? (note that many supernaturals are IMMUNE to normal weapons, where they are VERY FEW that are immune to magic)
You can use those BETTER than normal people (which also means fewer people could use them AGAINST you)

29b. Your limiting it too much on some OCCs, and your applying an "only", when it should be "(strongly) prefer". and ask any soldier if the only thing they did, or learned how to do, while in the service was shoot a gun - they will tell you no

Look over the list of skills for any mage.
Then try to tell me that all they do, or have learned to do, is to cast spells.

Fine – the skill list for MOST magic-users does NOT include WPs – what they do include are Lores and “Wilderness-Survival” type skills. Anything other than those are up to the individual character. HOWEVER, notice that EVERY magic-class lists their MYSTICAL abilities first. Also Notice that NONE of the magic users listed in RUE (save the TW) have any skill with technological items as standard skills – they must be selected by the player – this should highlight that they STRONGLY PREFER Magic to technology

31. actually it's not - the scenario you put up there can be dealt with by Magic and a Gun. It may not matter that he's vulnerable to fire if you can't hit him, but Call Lightning always hits. Also, you may be limited in the ammo for your gun - PPE you can get back later, while the next town could be a weeks ride away or more.

Sometimes that could well be the case.
Other times you could be low on PPE and have a half-dozen spare clips for your gun.
Do whichever is best for the situation, don't rely on one option exclusively.

One could ask why are you carrying around so many E-Clips
And you can Pre-Load your TW weapons (most of the time)

32. weather really isn't that much of a factor - so it rains, you should have packed your stuff to not get wet in the first place. And how much "loot" are your regularly carrying around with you?

Varies.
But we kill a skelebot, we're hauling it off with us if we can, and selling it for scrap.
We take a bunch of rifles off some bandits, we're taking those too.

I point to the carrying capacity of various pack animals – all adequate enough to carry the loads your talking about

33. See Warlords of Russia - over 200 MDC, can carry 4 tons and pull 15 - enough for most any loot I would need to bring. so it rains, that's what a raincoat is for.

That's great... if you're in Russia.

How much does it cost?

One of the benefits of being a Shifter – Summon it.

Though, for others, there’s always the iconic Fury Beatle – actually more heavily armored, though I’m not sure about it’s carrying abilities, though considering it’s size they should be adequate. And the cost will be orders of magnitude less than your vehicle (which, for the Nuclear-powered ATV you mentioned STARTS at half a million)

34. Granted, but still, what do you do if the Nuclear Power plant has trouble? - technology tends to be more failure-prone than TW, if for nothing else than the amount of components involved.

Nah, I don't really buy that.
Not for MDC vehicles.
Wear and tear is SDC damage.

That’s very arbitrary, and goes against common sense – all mechanical devices have wear and tear. Electrical devices too. To say otherwise is to ignore an important factor in the ownership of a technological device, especially those as complicated as military equipment are (such as PA and Robots, as well as vehicles)

OK, let's get a few things clear - I'm not saying that magic users should ONLY use magic, what I'm saying is that given the choice between the two the Magic user should tend to use magic over tech.

Yes, there are instances where they are going to be using tech, but it should be because they don't have a reasonable magic alternative.

Would they use a radio? Certainly, since it is likely that people they may try to contact, or that try to contact them, don't have access to the necessary spells

Would they use a tech vehicle? Yes, at least in the begining - they are not likely able to magically influence a mount for themselevs in the begining of their career. Afterwards, it becomes a matter of preferance, but I tend to feel that they would move towards creatures such as the Fury Beatle, or one of the Mega-Steeds mentioned Russia, or any number of MDC creature that can serve as a mount - they are just easier to deal with.

Would they use a Tech weapon? Why - their spells can do more damage, and often provide other benefits as well. So what if they don't have the range - casters can easily renew their armor while Tech-users can't. This allows them to close the gap. And if they're gunning for your mount too, then cast it on them as well (yet another reason to have a mount) - bottom line is that while the range on most spells may suck, the magic-user can often close the gap due to superior armor

Would they use tech armor? maybe, depending on how your GM runs armor and magic, but I really see them as wearing MDC leathers - it's just more comfortable - they can always cast a spell that will give them extra MDC. Why spend days on end in stuffy enviromental body armor when you can go about in a some casual clothes and a nice jacket or robe?

Examples for Magic Damage spells
1-action spells
Fire bolt - 4D6 damage, 100+ft range
Mental Blast - 5D6 HIT POINTS + penalties, 100+ft range, save = half damage
House of Glass - reflects damage you sustain back on your target, 100 ft range
Superhuman Strength - Hand to Hand combat, 3D6 damage per punch
2-action spells
Call Lightning - 1D6 x level damage - ALWAYS HITS, 300 ft range
Fire Ball - 1D4 x level damage, 90 ft range
Ballistic Fire - 1D6 x levle damage, 1,000 ft range, can be split up among targets
Lightblade - 1D4x10+ damage, Hand to Hand combat
Lightning Arc - 4D6 + (2 x level) Damage, 100 x level ft in range, and lasts for multiple rounds
Meteor - 1D6x10 + (2 x level) damage to EVERYTHING in a 40 ft RADIUS, and 200 x level ft Range

and these are just the ones in RUE (and Mental Blast) - the Book of Magic has more, such as Power Bolt, Glode of Fire, Sub-Particle Acceleration, etc. The only thing is tech ahs is Range, which again, you magical MDC protection will hold out long enough for you to get close.

Malakai wrote: for a mage, there no reason his spells SHOULDN'T be his weapons

Depending on the situation, there are plenty of good reasons.
Depends on what spells you know, what weapons you have, what rules you're playing with, and any number of other factors.
Casting time and lack of firepower are two of the biggest strikes against spells most of the time, followed by long-term ammunition problems (when away from ley lines, at least).

This was concerning the Skills that a Rogue Scholar has - any of the above would have helped in a confrontation with a T-Rex

you mentioned "that no matter how many WPs a mage has picked up, he'll still prefer magic, because that's what he spends most of his time doing."

Ah.
As a counter to the notion that mages always prefer magic (spellcasting specifically), except as a last resort.
Sure, maybe the mage is designed to be combat oriented.
Why not?
Different strokes, and all.

I was wondering WHY your mage picked so many WPs in the first place

Presumably because he likes using weapons.
Or because he learned to use them before he became a mage (starting secondary skills).
Or because he likes versatility.

Treat them as thinking characters

As pointed out, they're not thinking characters in this exercise.
They're 2D characters that can only use the most limited area of their expertise, except as a last resort.

It may make much more sense for a Shifter to summon forth all manner of demons and undead to fight in a battle, but it may not make sense for THAT CHARACTER to do so. If one sticks to pragmatism as the ultimate way to go, then individuality goes out the window, because being "pragmatic" means going with the "best" solution, without considering if it would be right for the individual to actual do such.

Not every character is pragmatic, but my main point is that at least some of them would be. Probably most.

Individuality goes out the window when you don't allow mages to use bicycles, because bicycles aren't spells (or magical).

even though a mage may not be able to repair TW equipment, they would be less prone to failure by virtue of their simplistic construction

I disagree.
There isn't any description of how complex or durable TW equipment is versus normal equipment, not that I know of.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Malakai wrote: for a mage, there no reason his spells SHOULDN'T be his weapons

Depending on the situation, there are plenty of good reasons.
Depends on what spells you know, what weapons you have, what rules you're playing with, and any number of other factors.
Casting time and lack of firepower are two of the biggest strikes against spells most of the time, followed by long-term ammunition problems (when away from ley lines, at least).

Well, of course it depends on what spells you have. it's often advisable to have at least a couple damage or combat spells
RUE rules - anything under level 6 is a 1-action cast. Firebolt does comparable damage, and has a decently low cost too, Mental Blast is also an excelent choice, as it bypasses armor and SDC completely (not PA though). The real problem comes from lack of range, but I addressed that above

you mentioned "that no matter how many WPs a mage has picked up, he'll still prefer magic, because that's what he spends most of his time doing."

Ah.
As a counter to the notion that mages always prefer magic (spellcasting specifically), except as a last resort.
Sure, maybe the mage is designed to be combat oriented.
Why not?
Different strokes, and all.

That's fine, but why use your limited skill choices on WPs, when you don't need them? by taking such skills, you predispose your character to using such items. And even then, Why not go with the TW weapons?

I was wondering WHY your mage picked so many WPs in the first place

Presumably because he likes using weapons.
Or because he learned to use them before he became a mage (starting secondary skills).
Or because he likes versatility.

see above

Treat them as thinking characters

As pointed out, they're not thinking characters in this exercise.
They're 2D characters that can only use the most limited area of their expertise, except as a last resort.

And as I pointed out, THEY ARE THINKING CHARACTERS
They also tend to go with their area of expertise, which you seem very keen to limit in what such an "expertise" covers

perhaps we should identify what is meant by "area of expertise", or "what they are good at".

Magic-users - using magic
Psychics - using psychic powers
Augmented (a.k.a. Juicers, Crazies, Borgs, and PA / Robot Pilots) - thier particular area of augmentation & Combat
Men-at-Arms - Tactics, Logistics, and Combat
Skill-Classes (including City Rat, Vagabond, Rogue Scholar, Rogue Scientist, etc) - the skills and abilities that come with their particular class

It also appears that it needs to be determined that COMMON SENSE also applies.

It may make much more sense for a Shifter to summon forth all manner of demons and undead to fight in a battle, but it may not make sense for THAT CHARACTER to do so. If one sticks to pragmatism as the ultimate way to go, then individuality goes out the window, because being "pragmatic" means going with the "best" solution, without considering if it would be right for the individual to actual do such.

Not every character is pragmatic, but my main point is that at least some of them would be. Probably most.

Individuality goes out the window when you don't allow mages to use bicycles, because bicycles aren't spells (or magical).

read the posts again - I was NEVER of the opinion that NO TECHNOLOGY WAS TO EVER BE USED, and even said that someone using Fly all the time instead of a hoverbike was taking it to far, but in that same vein, it would make more sense for a caster to use a mount than a piece of technology anyways

even though a mage may not be able to repair TW equipment, they would be less prone to failure by virtue of their simplistic construction

I disagree.
There isn't any description of how complex or durable TW equipment is versus normal equipment, not that I know of.

Actually, read through TWs again - they often replace a lot of complex wiring and circuitry with simple wires and gems - hell, take a look at the complexity of a TW Flaming Sowrd and a Vibro-Blade, and you chould immediately see what I mean. Now look at a Wing Board vs a hoverbike, or a Glittermount vs Robotic Horse - in all of these cases, the Tech item is much more mechanically and electronically complex, and thus more prone to wear and tear, as well as malfunction

And any engineer will tell you that the more complex a system gets, the higher the likelihood is for mechanical or electrical failure, especially in the rugged conditions that dominate in RIFTS.

Malakai wrote:On to the rest of it

Killer Cyborg wrote:IMO, it should be Mages :: Imagination and Mental Flexibility.

I would think ALL characters should be imaginative and mentally flexible

I would think ALL characters should use tactics.
But not all OCCs would have that as their area of expertise, just like not all characters would have imagination and mental flexibility as their area of expertise.

Ruling out anything BUT magic as anything but a last resort is inflexible.

That’s a matter of opinion – Like I said, magic in and of itself is very flexible

Quick quiz:

Which is more flexible:
a) Magic
or
b) Magic + everything else available

A possible analogy would be tools made of one type of material over tools made up of another – they are still tools

And sometimes you want a tool made of steel, sometimes you want one made of plastic.
Better to have both.

3b. Right, but remember, Rogue Scholars get dozens of skills, including AT LEAST 4 that are from the Technical Skills (where Lores are) - they are far more likely than others to have the right Lore

Yup.
But "more likely" isn't necessarily "likely."

So, you’re never guaranteed to have what you need for EVERY eventuality – that goes with any character.

Yes, it is.
And it becomes a heck of a lot more true when your character isn't flexible enough to use more than one kind of tool.

A mage is going to keep an open mind to all his options, not just casting spells at whatever's in front of him.

Yes, but the First consideration SHOULD be magic – it’s what they’re best at

Let's look at each half of that.
1. First consideration should be magic.
I disagree. First consideration should be practicality.
Otherwise mages would never walk across a room; they'd fly or teleport.
Mages would never tie their shoes; they'd use TK to do it.
They'd never talk to anybody, they'd use a communication spell.
They wouldn't ever grill a steak; they'd Create Bread & Milk and survive solely on that.
They wouldn't wear armor, they'd just keep recasting AoI or some other protective magic.
They wouldn't use a flashlight; they'd cast a light spell.

And yet they don't behave that way.
Just look over a mage's starting gear.

Moreover, in many schools of real-world and fantasy-world mysticism, it's outright profane or dangerous to even try to use magic for everything.
Magic is a powerful force, only to be used when needed.
Granted, Rifts isn't necessarily like those schools of thought/fantasy, but to say that it can't be, or shouldn't be, is to limit both the character of mages and the flavor of the game world.
There should be some mages that use magic as a first resort.
There should even be some mages that use magic as a last resort.
And there should be everything in-between.
Because variety is the spice of life, not stale rigidity.

2. It's what they're best at.

Not necessarily, it's just their major area of study.
Mages DO get skills, a decent amount of them, and a lot of their skill selections don't revolve around magic.

A first level mage could well be proficient in:
Climbing, Land Navigation, Wilderness Survival, Pilot Hover Craft, Lore: Demons, Math: Basic, Spanish, German, anthropology, Cooking (Professional quality), Intelligence, First Aid, Running, Acrobatics, swimming, Juicer Lore, WP Energy Pistol, WP Energy Rifle, Hunting, and zoology.

He's got 21 skills, and knows 12 spells.
And magic is what he's best at, just because he's a mage?

I don't believe that I agree with that.

I already admitted that the majority of a City Rat's skill and training would be Streetwise, not prowl or pick pockets.

That is only one of several skills they have – the City Rat is a Skills-Class, meaning that they rely on their skills to survive and thrive (as oppose to Magic, Psychic Powers, or PA / Robots). And most City rats are going to have Prowl as one of their skills.[/quote]

But the skill they're best at is going to be Streetwise.
That's their primary skill, and it's the one that's most key to their survival in their home turf.
And since these are 2D characters who only utilize what they're best at, that's what the Rat has to go with.

9a. Here, you're wrong - a Vagabonds key characteristic IS their choice of skills

Let's check the description of the OCC:
"The unskilled character is usually a spirited individual full of life and curiosity. However, they are rarely very educated in any formal sense, nor literate, and seldom seek higher education. They tend to live by the seat of their pants and rely on their wits and natural abilities/attributes."

But hey, what does the Rifts book know?

I mean, it claims that Line Walkers "are often literate, may study areas of science and have no aversion to using high-tech weapons, vehicles, and equipment."

Key words are “formal [education]” and “higher education” – they are more likely to have the “hands-on” type of skills, or those that would not require much “book” knowledge. They are another one of the Skill-Classes

Key words being:
"rely on their wits and natural abilities/attributes"

They're not a skills class, they're a "Wits, attributes, and natural abilities" class.

Also, compare Vagabond's with Line Walkers.
Vagabonds get 17 skills to start, 31 skills total by level 15.
Line Walker starts with 21 skills, and ends up with 26 skills by level 15.

That extra 5 skills the Vagabond gets makes it a Skills Class, but the Line Walker isn't?

And there are plenty of MAGIC weapons that they could use as well, in addition to any tech weapons they choose to use. But It would make more sense to have predominately TW weapons anyways

That depends on how fast you're going to be blowing through ammo, and what sort of recharging facilities you've got.

If they’re TW, you ARE their recharging facility. If not, then you’ve got another concern

Problem being that if you're spending all your PPE recharging guns, then you have less for spells.

Stormspire weapons make up for this quite a bit, since you can carry extra PPE clips that you've charged ahead of time, if you can afford them.

But TW weapons are still weaker than tech weapons overall (unless you get some really cool TW weapons worth a hell of a lot of credits).

10. Depends on how buff your rifle is - In most cases, it's not going to drop a t-Rex with only one (or even a few) shots. Actually, your probably better off running away, using your BIONIC SPEED to outrun the T-Rex.

What, and abandon the rest of the party?

When did we start considering the rest of the party?[/quote]

You really think a lone PC's going to take on a T-Rex solo?

If you want to go that route, then it make MORE sense for character’s to be specialized. In either case, they should still consider their area of expertise first.

So the Borg pops out his Bionic claws.

11. Micro-biology, but NO training in Zoology? Well, even given that, you're likely to know a thing or three about contagious diseases, which may help but the T-Rex out of commission, and using that dart-rifle I mentioned before.

Don't remember seeing that in their equipment list.
And what are you doing giving them WPs?
They're supposed to THINK their way out of stuff, what with being 2-D characters who only break outside their forte as a last resort.

Actually, they do have their choice of either WP Energy Pistol or Energy Rifle – don’t think it particularly fits. And it IS a WP that makes sense for the character to have, and it’s one skill choice (and GMs would probably allow the switch from Energy Rifle to Bolt-Action Rifle anyways)

Nope.
Don't buy it.

And using their SKILLS, especially SCIENTIFIC ONES would be thinking their way out of a problem.

Right.
This guy's scientific skills involve a microscope.
So that's exactly what he does.

Choosing magic over everything else is "acting blindly" too, so I was just sticking with the theme.

No, thinking magic FIRST would be a caster playing to their strength. I never said magic-users COULDN’T use anything else, just that MAGIC would be their first choice(s). Same goes for other classes and their areas of expertise

Your words were:
"as a last resort"

I guess 2-D characters just aren't going to be that successful.
Who knew?

I’m not sure why you keep thinking that characters who play to their strengths and consider how they can overcome a problem using what they’re best at FIRST as 2-D characters

Because it's just stupid to always rely on your strengths, regardless of circumstance.
Professional boxers don't rely on their primary area of expert except when it fits the circumstances.
They don't bob and weave when they're buying groceries.
They don't punch out tax collectors or cops.
They don't wear their boxing gloves when they drive their car.

Pick ANY profession, and I'm betting that outside of work, few people use their primary area of strength very much at all outside of the workplace.
Sure, a professional mechanic might tinker with old cars for fun, but he doesn't whip out a crescent wrench when he's figuring out life insurance forms or paying his water bill.
Because it doesn't freakin' make any sense.

If your area of strength doesn't fit the circumstances, then it's not a strength in that situation.

21. Well, if we assume his area is combat, services could mean helping guard the kingdom, training some new recruits, performing some mission for the Kingdom, etc - basically anything that a combat-character would be proficient in.

Nope.
Just shooting.

Just like mages can have all sorts of skills, including WPs, but they refuse to use them except as a last resort.

You make no sense – Why wouldn’t a BORG offer to trade his services for safe passage? It’s still relying on his area of expertise FIRST. Why must offer services be different from actually doing them?

Trading isn't his area of expertise; killing is.

“I can shoot” does not mean I must shoot the person in front of me.

Yet apparently, "I can cast spells" means "I must cast spells at the person in front of me."

Hm.
If he's a good talker, that will work.

But he's not a good talker.
He never bothered to talk about anything outside his area of expertise, so he's really boring.

Arbitrary limitation. Please re-read the description for the Rogue Scientist – this is no book-worm or laboratory shut-in. It is much more likely that, in the course of his travels, he would have had to make similar arrangements elsewhere.

If you get to ignore the description of Line Walkers and other mages, I get to ignore the descriptions of Rogue Scientists.

2It doesn't make sense to be a 2-D character in the first place.
We're not going with sense here, we're going with the idea that people don't do anything other than their strongest area of expertise except as a last resort.
And a Burster's area of expertise is making fires.

Again, just because I can do [X] does not mean I can’t offer to do [X] in service to someone else – it’s still playing to the character’s strength

A Burster's strength is making fire.

27. Relying on magic is not 2-Dimensional, it's playing to your strength.

Except that casting spells is not always the strongest option.
And, as I said, what a character's strength IS depends on the character, NOT on the OCC.
A Line-Walker can be a thief, a scholar, a mercenary, a soldier, a diplomat, a gigolo, or any number of other things, with magic as a means to the ends of his overall plans.

Yes, and as a LLW specializing in [blank], he’s much more likely to use MAGIC to help him do [blank]. Why spend money / resources on TECH when he can use MAGIC to achieve the same ends?

Because you can't always use magic to achieve the same ends.
And because sometimes even when you can, it just doesn't make sense to do so.

29a. This is where we differ. your job (or at least your OCC) IS your area of expertise. Yes, you can be a LLW specializing in "combat", but that will likely mean that your spell selection will reflect your tendency FOR COMBAT, as would your skill selection.

Unless you prefer guns and buffing spells.

Still shows your tendency FOR COMBAT, and again, your relying on MAGIC FIRST – since it’s almost assuredly (even for a pragmatist) that your casting MAGICAL armor OVER your tech suit, and that you would be relying on MAGIC for increased bonuses and such (whereas the TECH way would be to become a Juicer / Borg)

Are you saying that that mage would be relying on his Armor of Ithan over his gun?
I'd say that he's relying on both equally. The gun for killing, the magic for saving his life.

If you spent your life training to be a LLW, why would you slap on some armor, grab an energy rifle, and try to be a normal soldier? Why not have just trained to be a soldier first?

Who said you'd be a NORMAL solder?
You'd have guns and spells, the best of both worlds.

And why wouldn't you slap on armor?
And why wouldn't you use an energy weapon?
Mages can use them about as well as anybody else.

Why wouldn’t you throw on some MAGICAL armor? - easy to renew than tech armor, and often offers more protection[/quote]

Cost, for one thing.
How many magic OCCs can you name that start off with magical armor?
Techno-Wizards... who else?

Why wouldn’t you use a MAGICAL energy weapon? (note that many supernaturals are IMMUNE to normal weapons, where they are VERY FEW that are immune to magic)
You can use those BETTER than normal people (which also means fewer people could use them AGAINST you)

Heck, you could use magical weapons.
If you can afford them, if you want to spend your PPE recharging your guns instead of casting spells, and if you want to compromise your firepower.

But you could also just use a tech weapon.

Look over the list of skills for any mage.
Then try to tell me that all they do, or have learned to do, is to cast spells.

Fine – the skill list for MOST magic-users does NOT include WPs – what they do include are Lores and “Wilderness-Survival” type skills. Anything other than those are up to the individual character. HOWEVER, notice that EVERY magic-class lists their MYSTICAL abilities first. Also Notice that NONE of the magic users listed in RUE (save the TW) have any skill with technological items as standard skills – they must be selected by the player – this should highlight that they STRONGLY PREFER Magic to technology

No, what this highlights is that mages are spellcasters, but that's not all they are. The simple fact that any and every mage CAN choose to take WPs and other tech oriented skills shows that it's not a universal for mages to always prefer magic- that mages are designed to be customizable individuals who can do whatever they want, not just 2-D cutouts that always prefer magic.

One could ask why are you carrying around so many E-Clips

For ammo.

And you can Pre-Load your TW weapons (most of the time)

Never been in a long combat?

32. weather really isn't that much of a factor - so it rains, you should have packed your stuff to not get wet in the first place. And how much "loot" are your regularly carrying around with you?

Varies.
But we kill a skelebot, we're hauling it off with us if we can, and selling it for scrap.
We take a bunch of rifles off some bandits, we're taking those too.

I point to the carrying capacity of various pack animals – all adequate enough to carry the loads your talking about[/quote]

1. Pack animals tend to be SDC creatures who can die easily.
2. Yeah, a horse can carry a dead skelebot.
What about 2? 5?
As easily as a car, truck, or ATV?

33. See Warlords of Russia - over 200 MDC, can carry 4 tons and pull 15 - enough for most any loot I would need to bring. so it rains, that's what a raincoat is for.

That's great... if you're in Russia.

How much does it cost?

One of the benefits of being a Shifter – Summon it.

I must have missed the "Summon Mega-Horse" spell.

Though, for others, there’s always the iconic Fury Beatle – actually more heavily armored, though I’m not sure about it’s carrying abilities, though considering it’s size they should be adequate. And the cost will be orders of magnitude less than your vehicle (which, for the Nuclear-powered ATV you mentioned STARTS at half a million)

Fury Beetles are decent, as long as they don't panic.

34. Granted, but still, what do you do if the Nuclear Power plant has trouble? - technology tends to be more failure-prone than TW, if for nothing else than the amount of components involved.

Nah, I don't really buy that.
Not for MDC vehicles.
Wear and tear is SDC damage.

That’s very arbitrary, and goes against common sense – all mechanical devices have wear and tear. Electrical devices too. To say otherwise is to ignore an important factor in the ownership of a technological device, especially those as complicated as military equipment are (such as PA and Robots, as well as vehicles)

What you mean is: "All mechanical/electrical devices we have using current technology have wear and tear."
Which is meaningless when discussing future technology that's far beyond our capabilities.

Unless wear and tear can do 100 points of SDC damage at once, it can't hurt MDC structures.

Malakai wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Malakai wrote: for a mage, there no reason his spells SHOULDN'T be his weapons

Depending on the situation, there are plenty of good reasons.
Depends on what spells you know, what weapons you have, what rules you're playing with, and any number of other factors.
Casting time and lack of firepower are two of the biggest strikes against spells most of the time, followed by long-term ammunition problems (when away from ley lines, at least).

Well, of course it depends on what spells you have. it's often advisable to have at least a couple damage or combat spells
RUE rules - anything under level 6 is a 1-action cast. Firebolt does comparable damage, and has a decently low cost too,

Fire bold does comparable damage to a low-end energy weapon.
An L-20 does 6d6 MD, an NG-P7 does 1d4x10, a Wilk's 457 does 1d6x10, etc.

Mental Blast is also an excelent choice, as it bypasses armor and SDC completely (not PA though). The real problem comes from lack of range, but I addressed that above

Actually, the lack of range can often be a factor, and it's useless against power armor, bots, and vehicles.
And victims can save for 1/2 damage.

It's a very handy spell sometimes, but not so much at other times.

Sure, maybe the mage is designed to be combat oriented.
Why not?
Different strokes, and all.

That's fine, but why use your limited skill choices on WPs, when you don't need them?

Because you might very well need them.

by taking such skills, you predispose your character to using such items.

No ****.
Why NOT predispose your character to using such items, if that's the character concept you want?

As pointed out, they're not thinking characters in this exercise.
They're 2D characters that can only use the most limited area of their expertise, except as a last resort.

And as I pointed out, THEY ARE THINKING CHARACTERS

I disagree with that assessment.

They also tend to go with their area of expertise, which you seem very keen to limit in what such an "expertise" covers

As do you, for mages at least.

perhaps we should identify what is meant by "area of expertise", or "what they are good at".

Magic-users - using magic

Depends on the kind of mage.

Psychics - using psychic powers

Depends on the kind of psychic.

Augmented (a.k.a. Juicers, Crazies, Borgs, and PA / Robot Pilots) - thier particular area of augmentation & Combat

Pretty much, yeah.

Men-at-Arms - Tactics, Logistics, and Combat

Depends on the Man-At-Arms in question.

Skill-Classes (including City Rat, Vagabond, Rogue Scholar, Rogue Scientist, etc) - the skills and abilities that come with their particular class

All classes rely on the skills and abilities that come with their particular class.

It also appears that it needs to be determined that COMMON SENSE also applies.

That got thrown out the window when mages had to use magic for everything but a last resort.

Not every character is pragmatic, but my main point is that at least some of them would be. Probably most.

Individuality goes out the window when you don't allow mages to use bicycles, because bicycles aren't spells (or magical).

read the posts again - I was NEVER of the opinion that NO TECHNOLOGY WAS TO EVER BE USED

Just used "As a last resort."

but in that same vein, it would make more sense for a caster to use a mount than a piece of technology anyways

Why?
Being pro-magic doesn't exclude using technology.
Why would a mage specifically need to favor a mount over a tech vehicle?

There isn't any description of how complex or durable TW equipment is versus normal equipment, not that I know of.

Actually, read through TWs again - they often replace a lot of complex wiring and circuitry with simple wires and gems

Says nothing about durability.
For that matter, says nothing about complexity. Those "simple wires" might well have to be twisted exactly in a certain way, and if they get kinked then things quit working.

- hell, take a look at the complexity of a TW Flaming Sowrd and a Vibro-Blade, and you chould immediately see what I mean.

Nope.
Never seen either one diagrammed out.

Now look at a Wing Board vs a hoverbike, or a Glittermount vs Robotic Horse - in all of these cases, the Tech item is much more mechanically and electronically complex, and thus more prone to wear and tear, as well as malfunction

See above.

And any engineer will tell you that the more complex a system gets, the higher the likelihood is for mechanical or electrical failure, especially in the rugged conditions that dominate in RIFTS.

As a general rule, I agree with that.

Killer Cyborg wrote:
I would think ALL characters should use tactics.
But not all OCCs would have that as their area of expertise, just like not all characters would have imagination and mental flexibility as their area of expertise.

Can all characters use thier imagination? YES

Are all characters specifically trained to deal in tactical warfare? NO

your thinking is flawed

Quick quiz:

Which is more flexible:
a) Magic
or
b) Magic + everything else available

The comment wasn;t it is the MOST flexible, just that it was flexible (and, IMO, very much so) - flexibility is not measured in absolutes

And sometimes you want a tool made of steel, sometimes you want one made of plastic.
Better to have both.

not if you can only have a limited number of tools - you need to decide which ones your going to take, and which ones you need to leave behind

Yes, it is.
And it becomes a heck of a lot more true when your character isn't flexible enough to use more than one kind of tool.

Never said to NOT USE THEM AT ALL, just as a last resort - a.k.a. when you CAN'T get it done through magic.

Let's look at each half of that.
1. First consideration should be magic.
I disagree. First consideration should be practicality.

I did mention COMMON SENSE, which covers EVERYTHING you state below

Otherwise mages would never walk across a room; they'd fly or teleport.
Mages would never tie their shoes; they'd use TK to do it.
They'd never talk to anybody, they'd use a communication spell.
They wouldn't ever grill a steak; they'd Create Bread & Milk and survive solely on that.
They wouldn't wear armor, they'd just keep recasting AoI or some other protective magic.
They wouldn't use a flashlight; they'd cast a light spell.

And yet they don't behave that way.
Just look over a mage's starting gear.

Moreover, in many schools of real-world and fantasy-world mysticism, it's outright profane or dangerous to even try to use magic for everything.
Magic is a powerful force, only to be used when needed.
Granted, Rifts isn't necessarily like those schools of thought/fantasy, but to say that it can't be, or shouldn't be, is to limit both the character of mages and the flavor of the game world.
There should be some mages that use magic as a first resort.
There should even be some mages that use magic as a last resort.
And there should be everything in-between.
Because variety is the spice of life, not stale rigidity.

2. It's what they're best at.

Not necessarily, it's just their major area of study.
Mages DO get skills, a decent amount of them, and a lot of their skill selections don't revolve around magic.

A first level mage could well be proficient in:
Climbing, Land Navigation, Wilderness Survival, Pilot Hover Craft, Lore: Demons, Math: Basic, Spanish, German, anthropology, Cooking (Professional quality), Intelligence, First Aid, Running, Acrobatics, swimming, Juicer Lore, WP Energy Pistol, WP Energy Rifle, Hunting, and zoology.

He's got 21 skills, and knows 12 spells.
And magic is what he's best at, just because he's a mage?

I don't believe that I agree with that.

The you can choose to not agree - but when you consider the amount of time and effort that go into learniging how to even CAST A SPELL, you may come to realise that it took a LOT more training than you think. Consider that, when switching OCC, it takes more effort to switch to a Magic OCC than any other.

But the skill they're best at is going to be Streetwise.
That's their primary skill, and it's the one that's most key to their survival in their home turf.
And since these are 2D characters who only utilize what they're best at, that's what the Rat has to go with.

NO, they are "Best at" using thier skills to survive, as oppose to relying on Magic / Psychic powers / etc

Key words being:
"rely on their wits and natural abilities/attributes"

They're not a skills class, they're a "Wits, attributes, and natural abilities" class.

Also, compare Vagabond's with Line Walkers.
Vagabonds get 17 skills to start, 31 skills total by level 15.
Line Walker starts with 21 skills, and ends up with 26 skills by level 15.

That extra 5 skills the Vagabond gets makes it a Skills Class, but the Line Walker isn't?

NO, what makes them a Skills-Class is that it's the ONLY THING THEY GET.

No Magic, No Psionics, No PA or big robot to pilot, no cache of heav combat gear - they survive by thier quick thinking and using their skills to their fullest

Problem being that if you're spending all your PPE recharging guns, then you have less for spells.

Stormspire weapons make up for this quite a bit, since you can carry extra PPE clips that you've charged ahead of time, if you can afford them.

But TW weapons are still weaker than tech weapons overall (unless you get some really cool TW weapons worth a hell of a lot of credits).

recharge them in between combats

Also, don't forget the TK Guns - VERY CHEAP to reload

You really think a lone PC's going to take on a T-Rex solo?

a magic user easliy can, using MAGIC

So the Borg pops out his Bionic claws.

And as the T-Rex struggle to get him off of it, the others can do whatever they need to to deal with the situation.

Good Teamwork

Nope.
Don't buy it.

NOW who's being inflexible?

Right.
This guy's scientific skills involve a microscope.
So that's exactly what he does.

And I already showed how he would deal with it, USING HIS MICROSCOPE

Your words were:
"as a last resort"

Yes, as in, if you CAN'T use magic, then turn to tech

And again, common sense

Because it's just stupid to always rely on your strengths, regardless of circumstance.
Professional boxers don't rely on their primary area of expert except when it fits the circumstances.
They don't bob and weave when they're buying groceries.
They don't punch out tax collectors or cops.
They don't wear their boxing gloves when they drive their car.

Pick ANY profession, and I'm betting that outside of work, few people use their primary area of strength very much at all outside of the workplace.
Sure, a professional mechanic might tinker with old cars for fun, but he doesn't whip out a crescent wrench when he's figuring out life insurance forms or paying his water bill.
Because it doesn't freakin' make any sense.

If your area of strength doesn't fit the circumstances, then it's not a strength in that situation.

Look back to the begining of the topic - page 1, post 1
the situations mentioned were ALL COMBAT-RELATED. Not crossing the street, not buying a carton of milk
COMBAT
dragging in obviously frivolous and/or pointless uses of magic does nothing for your arguement

Using your Boxer, why would he even box? kicking does more damage than any punch ever will, so why would a BOXER ever throw a PUNCH in palladium?

BECAUSE IT IS APPROPRIATE FOR THEIR CHARACTER
IT'S THEIR AREA OF EXPERTISE

Trading isn't his area of expertise; killing is.

that in no way disqualifies him from killing someone that is not immediately in front of him

Yet apparently, "I can cast spells" means "I must cast spells at the person in front of me."

I never said you must acst spells at the person in front of you

If you get to ignore the description of Line Walkers and other mages, I get to ignore the descriptions of Rogue Scientists.

Since when am I ignoring the description of the LLW and other mages?

A Burster's strength is making fire.

and he can just as easily burn someone else

Because you can't always use magic to achieve the same ends.
And because sometimes even when you can, it just doesn't make sense to do so.

if he CAN'T, then the "last resort"qualifier is up, now is't it
as to the second part, COMMON SENSE

Are you saying that that mage would be relying on his Armor of Ithan over his gun?
I'd say that he's relying on both equally. The gun for killing, the magic for saving his life.

actually, armor is always more important than a gun.
It doesn't matter how much damage your gun does, what matters is that you are still around to fire it long enough to eleminate the threat.
I can hand you a gun that dishes out 6D6 MDC and armor with 60 MDC
I can use a gun that only does 1D6 MDC and can cast Energy Field (say I have 130 PPE, which is average for a LLW) - I will win, simply because I can keep on renewing my armor, you can't

Cost, for one thing.
How many magic OCCs can you name that start off with magical armor?
Techno-Wizards... who else?

there's always Energy Field, and AoI, both of which you could take at first level

and you can get better armor later

Heck, you could use magical weapons.
If you can afford them, if you want to spend your PPE recharging your guns instead of casting spells, and if you want to compromise your firepower.

But you could also just use a tech weapon.

you can't necessarily recharge a tech weapon whenever you want.
recharge them between fights
they are just as good on the low end - high damage would call for high-level spells, but you will quickly see that they often hit more than one target, and have other benefits besides damage, something that tech weapons lack

No, what this highlights is that mages are spellcasters, but that's not all they are. The simple fact that any and every mage CAN choose to take WPs and other tech oriented skills shows that it's not a universal for mages to always prefer magic- that mages are designed to be customizable individuals who can do whatever they want, not just 2-D cutouts that always prefer magic.

yes, the game designers actually let you CUSTOMIZE your character -

but notice that those are all OPTIONAL, while EVERY magic user has those wilderness survival and MYSTIC-type skills - they were probably thinking that THOSE SKILLS DEFINE THE CLASS, while the other skills DEFINE THE CHARACTER

For ammo.

you are the ammo for TW weapons and spells - no extra luggae needed

Never been in a long combat?

No, not really. funny thing how magic makes things go by much quicker.

Dropped War of the Apocalypse demons in 3 melee rounds - not long enough to burn though that much ammo

1. Pack animals tend to be SDC creatures who can die easily.
2. Yeah, a horse can carry a dead skelebot.
What about 2? 5?
As easily as a car, truck, or ATV?

depends on the animal, there are plenty of the MDC variety, and conveinently enuogh, they often sport SNPS as well. now how large is that cargo area you got on your ATV?

I must have missed the "Summon Mega-Horse" spell.

Then I suggest you go back over the Shifter Class, as well as such things as Summon Animal, Summon Greater Familiar, Summon Lesser Being, or hell, maybe even Summon Ally (since it could be a friend of yours)

What you mean is: "All mechanical/electrical devices we have using current technology have wear and tear."
Which is meaningless when discussing future technology that's far beyond our capabilities.

Unless wear and tear can do 100 points of SDC damage at once, it can't hurt MDC structures.

No, what I mean is EVERYTHING mechanical and/or electrial wears down over time. Especially when invovled in combat and other extreme conditions

Killer Cyborg wrote:Fire bold does comparable damage to a low-end energy weapon.
An L-20 does 6d6 MD, an NG-P7 does 1d4x10, a Wilk's 457 does 1d6x10, etc.

Sub-Particle Acceleration: 1D6x10 + (1 or 2 x level), IIRC
Power Bolt: 5D6 + (2 x level), excellent range, and does more damage at high levels than you tech rifles
Call Lightning: 1D6 x level, and ALWAYS hits - will beat out any of your at later levels
Chain Lightning: As Call Lightning, but will hit 1 target per level (no auto-hit though)
Lightning Arc: 4D6 + (2 x level), again beating out your tech weapons at higher levels
Meteor: 1D6x10 to EVERYTHING in a 40 ft RADIUS

Actually, the lack of range can often be a factor, and it's useless against power armor, bots, and vehicles.
And victims can save for 1/2 damage.

It's a very handy spell sometimes, but not so much at other times.

Already adressed the problem of range with better Armor
true, but there are other things to use against such targets
as for the save - they STILL take half damage - if the dodge, they take nothing from your tech weapon

Because you might very well need them.

when you can get the same or similair results without them, why?

No ****.
Why NOT predispose your character to using such items, if that's the character concept you want?

if that's the concept, a mage who relies on TECH just as much as magic, then sure, go ahead.

but it kinda deafets the point of argueing about WHY THEY SHOULD or SHOULDN'T, now doesn't it?

I disagree with that assessment.

Then stop the debate right there - we obviously aren't talking about the same thing

You say that people can't THINK and stay within thier area of expertise, I say they can - that's the debate

As do you, for mages at least.

All magical knowledge of LLW =/ Single Skill of City Rat

Magic-users - using magic

Depends on the kind of mage.

Granted, there are magic-users that meld magic with other things, but for the debate, I think we've gone with the standard LLW

Psychics - using psychic powers

Depends on the kind of psychic.

Yes, there are some that meld psychic abilities with other things as well, so can we agree, for arguments sake, that this is refering to a Mind Melter.

Men-at-Arms - Tactics, Logistics, and Combat

Depends on the Man-At-Arms in question.

Not really sure how you could argue that . . . care to elaborate?

Skill-Classes (including City Rat, Vagabond, Rogue Scholar, Rogue Scientist, etc) - the skills and abilities that come with their particular class

All classes rely on the skills and abilities that come with their particular class.

Fine, then define these as classes that do not have Magic, Psychic powers, substantial Physical Enhancement, Military (or equivilant) Training and equipment, or PA / Robots. I think that should cover it, but I might have let something in that belongs elsewhere

That got thrown out the window when mages had to use magic for everything but a last resort.

no, it didn't - you threw it out because it wasn't conducive to your arguement

Or, more appropriately, you threw it out so you could put forth ridiculous scenarios that would not make sense

Common sense and being pragmatic are not the same, does one predicate the other. Thus you can have one, without having the other.

Just used "As a last resort."

yes, and as orginal posted, these were COMBAT scenarios, not going over to the corner store or talking with your friend

Why?
Being pro-magic doesn't exclude using technology.
Why would a mage specifically need to favor a mount over a tech vehicle?

because he can use those same buffing spells that he casts on himself (especially the armor ones) on a living mount as well. doesn't really work on an ATV, unless it's TW

Says nothing about durability.

few moving or electronic parts = less likely to break down

- hell, take a look at the complexity of a TW Flaming Sowrd and a Vibro-Blade, and you chould immediately see what I mean.

Nope.
Never seen either one diagrammed out.

from page 137 of RUE
"Flaming Sword: A simple sword hilt made of wood or metal and no blade. At the top of the hilt is a thin slot where one moight expect a sword blade to be inserted. Inside the handle is a large ruby, mounted on a copper bracket with three wires running down the handle and connected to a second ruby at the base of the handle"

I think that paints a very vivid picture for you, at least better than any tech weapon description. And by this description alone, you know that it has fewer components than a Vibro-Blade, since this is less complex than one of those electric kitchen knives you can pick up at the sword today.

Now look at a Wing Board vs a hoverbike, or a Glittermount vs Robotic Horse - in all of these cases, the Tech item is much more mechanically and electronically complex, and thus more prone to wear and tear, as well as malfunction

See above

See New West or SoT #1

And any engineer will tell you that the more complex a system gets, the higher the likelihood is for mechanical or electrical failure, especially in the rugged conditions that dominate in RIFTS.

As a general rule, I agree with that.

Good, at least we can agree on something - it's a start

macksting wrote:This still boils down to the question, why wouldn't a wizard be pragmatic?
If pragmatism says use magic in a given situation, then use magic. If pragmatism says that gas mask is looking mighty attractive while you're busy fighting gaseous monsters for far too many hours at a time, why not use the mask instead of a spell?

Depends on what spells you have available. why would I use a gasmask, that can fall off or be damaged, when I can cast sustain that will give me all the air I need for AT LEAST 24 hours? it's 12 PPE - I'll get it back in an hour, or as soon as I get to a leyline.

My problem is that too many times, when people say "be pragmatic", they revert to tech, and doing so takes away a lot of the flavor of the game. use the laser distancer, the binoculars, the DDVR, the radio. But really consider whether you would be better off with a mount than a hoverbike or ATV - you'd probably be surpised at the benefits of having a mount.

The situations you gave in the begining were all combat, and in all of them, you figured, why waste PPE when you could shoot a gun and only drain an E-Clip (of which you have several spares). If your thinking in terms of spells as just a different way to shoot things, then it makes sense to go with the guns, but spells can do so much more. 1 mage can take out half a dozen SAMAS with one spell: Summon & Control Animals (Leatherwings in this case). No big rail gun, no streaking missiles flying through the air, no plasma bolts sorching the landscape - Leatherwings.

So use your spells to thier fullest before you resort to that gun, whther it be tech or TW, because I garauntee that many times you can just leave it in the holster if your give it some thought

Malakai wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:
I would think ALL characters should use tactics.
But not all OCCs would have that as their area of expertise, just like not all characters would have imagination and mental flexibility as their area of expertise.

Can all characters use thier imagination? YES

Are all characters specifically trained to deal in tactical warfare? NO

your thinking is flawed

No, your argument here is flawed.

Can all characters use their imagination? YES (excepting robots).
Do all characters have the imagination and mental flexibility required to bend reality to their will? NO.

Can all characters use tactics? YES.
Are all characters specifically trained to deal in tactical warfare? NO.

When you balance out the questions, you end up with no point.

Quick quiz:

Which is more flexible:
a) Magic
or
b) Magic + everything else available

The comment wasn;t it is the MOST flexible, just that it was flexible (and, IMO, very much so) - flexibility is not measured in absolutes[/quote]

If it's not measured in absolutes, then it's measured relative to other things.
Which would make the flexibility of Magic something dependent on what it was being compared to.
Which means that when you're comparing "Magic" to "Magic + Everything Else," that "Magic" is NOT really flexible after all.

And sometimes you want a tool made of steel, sometimes you want one made of plastic.
Better to have both.

not if you can only have a limited number of tools - you need to decide which ones your going to take, and which ones you need to leave behind

Or, if you're reasonable, you take the best of both.

Yes, it is.
And it becomes a heck of a lot more true when your character isn't flexible enough to use more than one kind of tool.

Never said to NOT USE THEM AT ALL, just as a last resort - a.k.a. when you CAN'T get it done through magic.

But not when you can get it done either way, but tech is more effective?
Like Fly As Eagle vs. a hover cycle?

Let's look at each half of that.
1. First consideration should be magic.
I disagree. First consideration should be practicality.

I did mention COMMON SENSE, which covers EVERYTHING you state below[/quote]

If you want to revise your claim to "mages should use common sense," then we'll finally be in agreement.

Otherwise mages would never walk across a room; they'd fly or teleport.
Mages would never tie their shoes; they'd use TK to do it.
They'd never talk to anybody, they'd use a communication spell.
They wouldn't ever grill a steak; they'd Create Bread & Milk and survive solely on that.
They wouldn't wear armor, they'd just keep recasting AoI or some other protective magic.
They wouldn't use a flashlight; they'd cast a light spell.

And yet they don't behave that way.
Just look over a mage's starting gear.

Moreover, in many schools of real-world and fantasy-world mysticism, it's outright profane or dangerous to even try to use magic for everything.
Magic is a powerful force, only to be used when needed.
Granted, Rifts isn't necessarily like those schools of thought/fantasy, but to say that it can't be, or shouldn't be, is to limit both the character of mages and the flavor of the game world.
There should be some mages that use magic as a first resort.
There should even be some mages that use magic as a last resort.
And there should be everything in-between.
Because variety is the spice of life, not stale rigidity.

2. It's what they're best at.

Not necessarily, it's just their major area of study.
Mages DO get skills, a decent amount of them, and a lot of their skill selections don't revolve around magic.

A first level mage could well be proficient in:
Climbing, Land Navigation, Wilderness Survival, Pilot Hover Craft, Lore: Demons, Math: Basic, Spanish, German, anthropology, Cooking (Professional quality), Intelligence, First Aid, Running, Acrobatics, swimming, Juicer Lore, WP Energy Pistol, WP Energy Rifle, Hunting, and zoology.

He's got 21 skills, and knows 12 spells.
And magic is what he's best at, just because he's a mage?

I don't believe that I agree with that.

The you can choose to not agree - but when you consider the amount of time and effort that go into learniging how to even CAST A SPELL, you may come to realise that it took a LOT more training than you think. Consider that, when switching OCC, it takes more effort to switch to a Magic OCC than any other.

The fact that something takes a lot of time and effort does not mean that it's what you're best at.
Arguably, it means the opposite.

But the skill they're best at is going to be Streetwise.
That's their primary skill, and it's the one that's most key to their survival in their home turf.
And since these are 2D characters who only utilize what they're best at, that's what the Rat has to go with.

NO, they are "Best at" using thier skills to survive, as oppose to relying on Magic / Psychic powers / etc[/quote]

What if the Cit Rat is a psychic, though?
Does that mean that he suddenly favors psionics over skills?
Or does he favor skills over psionics?

And City Rats have cybernetics.
Don't some City Rats rely on their cybernetics to survive?
Does that mean they favor skills or cybernetics?

And if you have a psychic City Rat with cybernetics, what then?
Which ONE thing does he rely on to survive?

Or is it possible that he relies on any and all of these, using whichever seems best at the time, instead of being a one-trick pony?

Key words being:
"rely on their wits and natural abilities/attributes"

They're not a skills class, they're a "Wits, attributes, and natural abilities" class.

Also, compare Vagabond's with Line Walkers.
Vagabonds get 17 skills to start, 31 skills total by level 15.
Line Walker starts with 21 skills, and ends up with 26 skills by level 15.

That extra 5 skills the Vagabond gets makes it a Skills Class, but the Line Walker isn't?

NO, what makes them a Skills-Class is that it's the ONLY THING THEY GET.[/quote]

Mages get TWO things; skills and magic.
Wouldn't that mean that they get to do two things?
Use skills AND use magic?
Choosing whichever is more appropriate to the situation?

No Magic, No Psionics, No PA or big robot to pilot, no cache of heav combat gear - they survive by thier quick thinking and using their skills to their fullest

Unless they have psionics.
If they do, does that make them a Psionic class?

Problem being that if you're spending all your PPE recharging guns, then you have less for spells.

Stormspire weapons make up for this quite a bit, since you can carry extra PPE clips that you've charged ahead of time, if you can afford them.

But TW weapons are still weaker than tech weapons overall (unless you get some really cool TW weapons worth a hell of a lot of credits).

recharge them in between combats[/quote]

Uh, yeah... that doesn't really touch the point, which is that sometimes you're going to be using PPE faster than you regenerate it.
You can use it all loading guns, and find yourself too drained when that big spell is really needed.

Also, don't forget the TK Guns - VERY CHEAP to reload

TK Carbine takes 15 PPE per 6 shots.
TK Assault Rifle takes 1 PPE per shot, which is nice because you can reload it a bit at a time, but at 3d6 MD max, you're going to need a LOT of shots in a combat-heavy game.

You really think a lone PC's going to take on a T-Rex solo?

a magic user easliy can, using MAGIC[/quote]

Possibly, depending on how you mean "take on" and how much he wants to drain himself.
Carpet of Adhesions combined with attack spells could kill the thing... eventually, if the mage has enough PPE.

So the Borg pops out his Bionic claws.

And as the T-Rex struggle to get him off of it, the others can do whatever they need to to deal with the situation.

Good Teamwork

I don't think it'd be a struggle to get the borg off of him.

Nope.
Don't buy it.

NOW who's being inflexible?

Can't say, since I don't know what this part was about.

Right.
This guy's scientific skills involve a microscope.
So that's exactly what he does.

And I already showed how he would deal with it, USING HIS MICROSCOPE

No, you showed how he would deal with it using his negotiating techniques.

Your words were:
"as a last resort"

Yes, as in, if you CAN'T use magic, then turn to tech

And again, common sense

Addressed above.
This leaves you using magic when tech (or anything else) would do a better job.

Because it's just stupid to always rely on your strengths, regardless of circumstance.
Professional boxers don't rely on their primary area of expert except when it fits the circumstances.
They don't bob and weave when they're buying groceries.
They don't punch out tax collectors or cops.
They don't wear their boxing gloves when they drive their car.

Pick ANY profession, and I'm betting that outside of work, few people use their primary area of strength very much at all outside of the workplace.
Sure, a professional mechanic might tinker with old cars for fun, but he doesn't whip out a crescent wrench when he's figuring out life insurance forms or paying his water bill.
Because it doesn't freakin' make any sense.

If your area of strength doesn't fit the circumstances, then it's not a strength in that situation.

Look back to the begining of the topic - page 1, post 1
the situations mentioned were ALL COMBAT-RELATED. Not crossing the street, not buying a carton of milk
COMBAT
dragging in obviously frivolous and/or pointless uses of magic does nothing for your arguement

Are you revising your statement to "A mage should rely on magic in combat, turning to other means only as a last resort?"

Using your Boxer, why would he even box? kicking does more damage than any punch ever will, so why would a BOXER ever throw a PUNCH in palladium?

I wasn't talking about a Palladium Boxer.
I was talking about a professional boxer in the real world, to point out the silliness of the "people only ever do what they're best at, no matter the circumstances, except as a last resort."

BECAUSE IT IS APPROPRIATE FOR THEIR CHARACTER
IT'S THEIR AREA OF EXPERTISE

And because it's illegal to kick in a boxing match, so he could end his career.
And because he only gets his KO ability kicking in on a punch.

But mostly because Palladium's combat rules are somewhat lacking in this area. There's little in-game reason to do anything other than Roundhouse kicks in SDC melee combat in Rifts.

Trading isn't his area of expertise; killing is.

that in no way disqualifies him from killing someone that is not immediately in front of him[/quote]

But if a mage's area of expertise is magic, he IS disqualified from using other methods?
Weird.

Yet apparently, "I can cast spells" means "I must cast spells at the person in front of me."

I never said you must acst spells at the person in front of you[/quote]

Just that you must cast spells, except as a last resort.
Which means that talking isn't your first resort.
Neither is shooting.
Neither is running away (though you could fly or teleport).

If you get to ignore the description of Line Walkers and other mages, I get to ignore the descriptions of Rogue Scientists.

Since when am I ignoring the description of the LLW and other mages?

RUE 113
Ley Line Walkers are inquisitive and open to new ideas, people, and philosophies. Many are literate, study areas of science and have no aversion to using high-tech weapons, vehicles, and equipment."

Shifters start with high-tech gadgets and weapons (laser distancers, gas masks, PDD recorders, hand-held computers, SMGs, Etc.

Elemental Fusionists "understand the use for money and often barter to be able to buy man-mage items that they need for their travels (knives, guns and flashlights for example)..."
And, like most other mages, start off with tech equipment.
I think it's safe to assume that they use it.

Mystics avoid human augmentation, "but will use modern tools, energy weapons, and body armor."
Which explains why they start off with modern weapons and gear.
For vehicles, there's an interesting note:
Mystics "tend to prefer a living animal (horse, fury beetle, etc)."
Which goes a bit with your theory, because they aren't that fond of tech vehicles.
But note the utter and complete lack of that statement in other Mage OCCs.
Then note that "Mystics also seem attracted to motorcycles, dune buggies, and ground hover vehicles."
Almost as if they had individual tastes, and weren't blindly biased towards magic.

A Burster's strength is making fire.

and he can just as easily burn someone else

I think I proposed that.

Because you can't always use magic to achieve the same ends.
And because sometimes even when you can, it just doesn't make sense to do so.

if he CAN'T, then the "last resort"qualifier is up,
now is't it
as to the second part, COMMON SENSE

It's sounding more and more like what you're trying to say is, "Mages always prefer to use magic over technology or other options... except for all the times when they don't prefer to use magic over technology."

A point that pretty much negates itself.

Are you saying that that mage would be relying on his Armor of Ithan over his gun?
I'd say that he's relying on both equally. The gun for killing, the magic for saving his life.

actually, armor is always more important than a gun.[/quote]

I disagree. There are dozens of scenarios where the gun is the more important factor.

It doesn't matter how much damage your gun does, what matters is that you are still around to fire it long enough to eleminate the threat.
I can hand you a gun that dishes out 6D6 MDC and armor with 60 MDC
I can use a gun that only does 1D6 MDC and can cast Energy Field (say I have 130 PPE, which is average for a LLW) - I will win, simply because I can keep on renewing my armor, you can't

You do know that the Energy Field is solid for the mage too, don't you?

Either way, without that gun (or other offensive capabilities, since we're discussing a mage who is geared towards defensive spells) you're screwed.

Cost, for one thing.
How many magic OCCs can you name that start off with magical armor?
Techno-Wizards... who else?

there's always Energy Field, and AoI, both of which you could take at first level

And both are nice spells.
But neither is a replacement for actual armor.

and you can get better armor later

Depending on how successful you are in life.

Heck, you could use magical weapons.
If you can afford them, if you want to spend your PPE recharging your guns instead of casting spells, and if you want to compromise your firepower.

But you could also just use a tech weapon.

you can't necessarily recharge a tech weapon whenever you want.
recharge them between fights
they are just as good on the low end - high damage would call for high-level spells, but you will quickly see that they often hit more than one target, and have other benefits besides damage, something that tech weapons lack

Lots of tech weapons hit more than one target.
If you use the old burst/spray rules, most of them can.
Whether you do or not, missiles and grenades hit more than one target.

Yes, a lot of offensive spells have extra benefits.
And when these benefits are better than cranking out sheer damage those spells are the better option.
But if not, then they're not.

No, what this highlights is that mages are spellcasters, but that's not all they are. The simple fact that any and every mage CAN choose to take WPs and other tech oriented skills shows that it's not a universal for mages to always prefer magic- that mages are designed to be customizable individuals who can do whatever they want, not just 2-D cutouts that always prefer magic.

yes, the game designers actually let you CUSTOMIZE your character -

but notice that those are all OPTIONAL, while EVERY magic user has those wilderness survival and MYSTIC-type skills - they were probably thinking that THOSE SKILLS DEFINE THE CLASS, while the other skills DEFINE THE CHARACTER

Actually, I think the writers defined the class themselves, then picked skills/abilities that fit with that definition.
Same thing when picking what skills are available for mages to take; they only allowed skills that they thought a mage might reasonably take.
Which means that if they can take a skill, it's reasonable for them to do so.

Also, note that LLWs MUST take at least 2 Science skills.
Kind of indicates an interest in science.

For ammo.

you are the ammo for TW weapons and spells - no extra luggae needed

I've already addressed the relative benefits of TW weapons vs. Tech weapons.

Never been in a long combat?

No, not really. funny thing how magic makes things go by much quicker.

You've never been in a long combat, then.
That explains your lack of perspective here.

Fact is, lots of people use magic in combat, and most of them still end up in some pretty long combats.
Apparently relying solely on magic is a reasonable option in your group, for how your GM runs things, but it's NOT in a lot of other people's games.
Which leaves you trying to project ideas that are good in your group onto groups where the ideas aren't so hot.

Dropped War of the Apocalypse demons in 3 melee rounds - not long enough to burn though that much ammo

Not going to touch that one with a 10' pole.
Except to say that it doesn't strengthen your argument.

1. Pack animals tend to be SDC creatures who can die easily.
2. Yeah, a horse can carry a dead skelebot.
What about 2? 5?
As easily as a car, truck, or ATV?

depends on the animal, there are plenty of the MDC variety, and conveinently enuogh, they often sport SNPS as well. now how large is that cargo area you got on your ATV?

I must have missed the "Summon Mega-Horse" spell.

Then I suggest you go back over the Shifter Class, as well as such things as Summon Animal, Summon Greater Familiar, Summon Lesser Being, or hell, maybe even Summon Ally (since it could be a friend of yours)

And which would the Mega-Horse fall into?
And how would a Shifter in North America know about beasts living in Russia?

What you mean is: "All mechanical/electrical devices we have using current technology have wear and tear."
Which is meaningless when discussing future technology that's far beyond our capabilities.

Unless wear and tear can do 100 points of SDC damage at once, it can't hurt MDC structures.

No, what I mean is EVERYTHING mechanical and/or electrial wears down over time.

Then what you mean is incorrect, for the reasons I mentioned.

Especially when invovled in combat and other extreme conditions

Combat damage isn't "wear and tear."

Malakai wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:Fire bold does comparable damage to a low-end energy weapon.
An L-20 does 6d6 MD, an NG-P7 does 1d4x10, a Wilk's 457 does 1d6x10, etc.

Sub-Particle Acceleration: 1D6x10 + (1 or 2 x level), IIRC

Yup.
In two attacks.
So for every casting of SPA, you could do:
12d6 with an L-20
2d4x10 with an NG-P7
2d6x10 with a Wilk's 457

IF you're not interrupted mid-casting.

Power Bolt: 5D6 + (2 x level), excellent range, and does more damage at high levels than you tech rifles

Again, takes two attacks.
Again, chance of being interrupted.
Again, more damage with tech weapons.

Call Lightning: 1D6 x level, and ALWAYS hits - will beat out any of your at later levels

Yup.
So any mage 6th level or higher is better off with Call Lightning than an L-20, unless the target is more than 300' away.
8th level or higher, and you don't need that NG-P7 (except for the range issue).
And at 10th level, you finally don't need that Wilk's 457 (except for the range issue).
Which means that at 10th level or more, in close range combat, you FINALLY don't need that gun.... except that the spell still takes 2 attacks to cast, so nevermind all that.
Maybe at 20th level...

Chain Lightning: As Call Lightning, but will hit 1 target per level (no auto-hit though)

Can't find "Chain Lightning" in the BoM.
Where is it located?

Lightning Arc: 4D6 + (2 x level), again beating out your tech weapons at higher levels

Actually, this is the closest to matching a tech weapon.
It's got decent damage (though not as good as a high-end rifle, not until you're high level), and the range is as about as good as an energy pistol at medium levels. If you have the time to cast the spell, if the enemy is in close range, it's a very good spell to use.
But if you need the range, or if you don't get that spell off before combat (or before somebody interrupts you), then you're better off drawing that gun.
Also, it's pretty expensive: 30 PPE.
In a heavy combat game, that can drain your reserves pretty quickly.

Meteor: 1D6x10 to EVERYTHING in a 40 ft RADIUS

Yup, that's another good one.
This flat-out beats a mini-missile launcher for most mages.
It doesn't have the range, but it's got the damage, it's beats the radius, and you don't have to lug around a mini-missile launcher (or buy new missiles).
Casting time's a downside, of course, but the biggest problem is the sheer cost of the spell, 75 PPE.
That's 8 hours of meditation you need to make up the loss.
Pretty darned good spell, but there are going to be times when it's better to use technology.

If there's only a few enemies, you could well be better off using that Wilk's 457. By the time you get that spell off, you could have just shot two of them for the same damage, and without spending half your PPE to do it.
If there's only one enemy, you'd be clearly better off with a good gun.

Actually, the lack of range can often be a factor, and it's useless against power armor, bots, and vehicles.
And victims can save for 1/2 damage.

It's a very handy spell sometimes, but not so much at other times.

Already adressed the problem of range with better Armor

Don't remember that.

true, but there are other things to use against such targets
as for the save - they STILL take half damage - if the dodge, they take nothing from your tech weapon

And now that they've made Aimed Shots take more time, that's a much better argument.
But if they dodge, then they're out an attack (unless they're juicers, in which you're better off simo-attacking so they can't dodge), which is often as good as inflicting damage.

Because you might very well need them.

when you can get the same or similair results without them, why?[/quote]

Don't remember what this bit was about, but I'll take a stab and say that you can't.

Why NOT predispose your character to using such items, if that's the character concept you want?

if that's the concept, a mage who relies on TECH just as much as magic, then sure, go ahead.

but it kinda deafets the point of argueing about WHY THEY SHOULD or SHOULDN'T, now doesn't it?

Nope.
The basic argument here is whether or not mages should ALL rely on magic over tech, or whether it's up to the individual and the circumstances, and to what degree.

I disagree with that assessment.

Then stop the debate right there - we obviously aren't talking about the same thing

You say that people can't THINK and stay within thier area of expertise, I say they can - that's the debate

People can think and stay within their area of expertise.
But if they only stay within their area of expertise, rejecting other options, then they're not thinking.

As do you, for mages at least.

All magical knowledge of LLW =/ Single Skill of City Rat

Depends on how you're measuring.
That one skill is "what a city rat is best at," just like magic seems to be for a mage.

Granted, there are magic-users that meld magic with other things, but for the debate, I think we've gone with the standard LLW

The standard LLW, as I've pointed out, has no problems with using technology, and often does use it.

Also, check out RUE 188:
"It is important to point out that unlike the CS who completely reject technology in all its forms, few practitioners of magic dismiss technology out of hand. While it is true that most rely heavily on their magic powers and natural abilities, most human and D-Bee sorcerers also use technology. Energy weapons, vibro-blades, portable computers, recorders, cameras, robot medical systems, language translators, radio communicators, optic systems (binoculors, etc), partial MDC body armor, light vehicles, air filters and goggles are all commonly part of the magic characters' gear and equipment."
"Bionics... and the wearing of environmental body armor... are avoided like the plague, but only because they interfer with spell casting and the use of magic."

Yes, there are some [psychics] that meld psychic abilities with other things as well, so can we agree, for arguments sake, that this is refering to a Mind Melter.

Sure, but "The Mind Melters relies almost entirely on his incredible psychic powers, a sharp mind and cunning, more than education, weapons or anything else."
Says so right in the class description.

Any of the mage classes say anything similar?

Men-at-Arms - Tactics, Logistics, and Combat

Depends on the Man-At-Arms in question.

Not really sure how you could argue that . . . care to elaborate?[/quote]

Crazies "tend to be reactionary, believe themselves to be indestructible, take needless risks, and have a complete disregard for personal safety..."

Juicers "are cold, brutal, killing machines who don't care if they die young." While some Juicers are going to use strategy and tactics, many aren't going to bother.

The few Men-At-Arms OCCs that specify an emphasis on military tactics/strategy are headhunters and CS military OCCs.
Most of the M&M classses (or rather, a many members of these classes) are going to have the same sort of god-complex that the Crazies have; they're not going to plan things out carefully as a first resort.

Skill-Classes (including City Rat, Vagabond, Rogue Scholar, Rogue Scientist, etc) - the skills and abilities that come with their particular class

All classes rely on the skills and abilities that come with their particular class.

Fine, then define these as classes that do not have Magic, Psychic powers, substantial Physical Enhancement, Military (or equivilant) Training and equipment, or PA / Robots. I think that should cover it, but I might have let something in that belongs elsewhere

In short, they use every option they have, they just have fewer options.
A mage has more options, but he should still use every option he has.

That got thrown out the window when mages had to use magic for everything but a last resort.

no, it didn't - you threw it out because it wasn't conducive to your arguement

Or, more appropriately, you threw it out so you could put forth ridiculous scenarios that would not make sense[/quote]

No, I just used the same argument you were using.
I only threw out common sense as a result of that argument.

IF you had been using common sense, then I wouldn't have bothered to argue against it.
But you weren't, and all I did was show you that.

Being pro-magic doesn't exclude using technology.
Why would a mage specifically need to favor a mount over a tech vehicle?

because he can use those same buffing spells that he casts on himself (especially the armor ones) on a living mount as well. doesn't really work on an ATV, unless it's TW

So you have to buff up your animal as well as yourself, and use up 2x the PPE.
I can see some mages wanting to do that, instead of having the speed, shelter, possible TW enhancements and other advantages in tech vehicles, but I can't see ALL mages wanting that.
Or even most mages.

Of all the mages in the main book, only Mystics are listed as preferring mounts over vehicles, and they're about as likely to pick a hover cycle.

Says nothing about durability.

few moving or electronic parts = less likely to break down

I believe I mentioned that we know nothing about the relative delicateness of TW items.

Never seen either one diagrammed out.

from page 137 of RUE
"Flaming Sword: A simple sword hilt made of wood or metal and no blade. At the top of the hilt is a thin slot where one moight expect a sword blade to be inserted. Inside the handle is a large ruby, mounted on a copper bracket with three wires running down the handle and connected to a second ruby at the base of the handle"

I think that paints a very vivid picture for you, at least better than any tech weapon description. And by this description alone, you know that it has fewer components than a Vibro-Blade, since this is less complex than one of those electric kitchen knives you can pick up at the sword today.

All it tells me is the visibly obvious ingredients, not the necessity or fragility of the various components.
What do those three wires do? Are they MDC? If not, then they could snap pretty easily. Does the shape of those wires matter, do they have to be twisted in a certain pattern? Do the rubies have to be set at a precise angle? How are those rubies actually set into the weapon? How's that copper bracket attached?

More descriptive than a lot of tech weapons, but still not much to go on.
But say it was... we still don't have jack about how vibro-weapons are designed, so we can't compare them.

See New West or SoT #1

I'd much, much rather not.
Why don't you just say what you're trying to say?

Malakai wrote:

macksting wrote:This still boils down to the question, why wouldn't a wizard be pragmatic?
If pragmatism says use magic in a given situation, then use magic. If pragmatism says that gas mask is looking mighty attractive while you're busy fighting gaseous monsters for far too many hours at a time, why not use the mask instead of a spell?

Depends on what spells you have available. why would I use a gasmask, that can fall off or be damaged, when I can cast sustain that will give me all the air I need for AT LEAST 24 hours? it's 12 PPE - I'll get it back in an hour, or as soon as I get to a leyline.

No argument on that point.
That spell is crazy powerful!

My problem is that too many times, when people say "be pragmatic", they revert to tech, and doing so takes away a lot of the flavor of the game.

See, that's where I object.
Where the game loses flavor is when people think they have to choose between various options, instead of mixing and matching.
One of the things that made me come over to Rifts was the fact that mages weren't stuck using daggers, darts, and robes in combat; they could actually fight like anybody else.
Just like most fantasy mages.
Read through the Lord of the Rings books, then count up how many times Gandalf uses his sword over casting a spell (granted, it's a magic sword, but in a medieval world that's the equivalent of a magic gun, which is a blending of both magic and tech).

Rifts is a world of endless possibilities, and the only time it loses flavor is when people think that a certain class has to limit itself to only one possibility.

use the laser distancer, the binoculars, the DDVR, the radio.

Just pointing out that I DO see you saying that, and that I recognize that your argument is basically that if something cannot be accomplished by magic, you're fine with mages using tech.
There's no spell version of a laser distancer, so you're cool with mages using it.

But really consider whether you would be better off with a mount than a hoverbike or ATV - you'd probably be surpised at the benefits of having a mount.

There are advantages in having a mount.
There are advantages in having a vehicle.
Which is why some mages will choose one, and other mages will choose the other.

The situations you gave in the begining were all combat, and in all of them, you figured, why waste PPE when you could shoot a gun and only drain an E-Clip (of which you have several spares). If your thinking in terms of spells as just a different way to shoot things, then it makes sense to go with the guns, but spells can do so much more.

They can do more.
Which is why a lot of my mages prefer NOT to waste their PPE in simple combat.
It's like the old saying, "Never play an ace when a deuce will do."

1 mage can take out half a dozen SAMAS with one spell: Summon & Control Animals (Leatherwings in this case). No big rail gun, no streaking missiles flying through the air, no plasma bolts sorching the landscape - Leatherwings.

IF your GM allows you to summon them with that spell, they'd count as exotic animals, so you get 1 per level.
I don't remember how tough leatherwings are, but you'd probably have to be a pretty high level to take out 6 SAMAS that way.

Good idea either way, though.

Just keep in mind that that one spell takes 125 PPE to cast, so let's hope you didn't blow your PPE on Meteor or a bunch of Call Lightnings or recharging a bunch of PPE-Clips earlier in the day.

Killer Cyborg wrote:
No, your argument here is flawed.

Can all characters use their imagination? YES (excepting robots).
Do all characters have the imagination and mental flexibility required to bend reality to their will? NO.

Can all characters use tactics? YES.
Are all characters specifically trained to deal in tactical warfare? NO.

When you balance out the questions, you end up with no point.

Lets look back at the analogy
yours: "Men-at-Arms :: Violence" is the same as "Magic-users :: Magic"
Mine: "Men-at-Arms :: Tactics" is the same as "Magic-users :: Magic"
You countered that "Magic-users :: Imagination and mental flexibility"
I said that should apply to ALL characters
you said that tactics should too
I said that not everyone is trained to deal with Tactical Warfare, which is what is meant in the above analogy with the MaA.
you then said that everyone can use tactics, but that not everyone is trained in tactical warfare

Thus we can agree that tactical warfare would be the "area of expertise" for the Man-at-Arms

We also agree that everyone can use thier imagination and be mentaly flexible - that this is not limited to magic-users
SO it cannot be theMagic-users area of expertise
the it should default to MAGIC

Which is my original statement

If it's not measured in absolutes, then it's measured relative to other things.
Which would make the flexibility of Magic something dependent on what it was being compared to.
Which means that when you're comparing "Magic" to "Magic + Everything Else," that "Magic" is NOT really flexible after all.

then lets use your method of comparison:
the surface of the sun is 5,780 K (or A)
a plasma torch runs well over 12,000 K (or over twice A)

therefore:
The surface of the sun is not really hot after all

does that seem to make sense to you?

Or, if you're reasonable, you take the best of both.

yes, but suppose you can only carry a limited amount?
Now suppose Set A:
Can never be lost
Can always be recharged
Never needs to be repaired
Doesn't take up any space or encumbrance you
Has a wider variety of applications
the capability of most tools will increase over time
Has only limited long-range capabilities

and set B:
Can be lost or stolen
Needs to be recharged at a facility
Can be damaged
Needs to be maintained
Takes up space and encumbrances you
Each tool has a limited scope of applications
The capability of each tool will not increase over time
on average, has better long-range capabilities


Which would you stock up the most one?

But not when you can get it done either way, but tech is more effective?
Like Fly As Eagle vs. a hover cycle?

Like I said before, relying soley on fly like the Eagle instead of using a hoverbike IS EXCESSIVE

But even in that vein - take a look at the altitude for hoverbikes - few reach 6,000 ft or more, and none reach 10,000 ft
no limit on Fly as the Eagle
Yes, you have the advantage where it comes to speed, but that's about it
Your a larger target
It can be lost or stolen, etc

If you want to revise your claim to "mages should use common sense," then we'll finally be in agreement.

Like I said, using common sense and considernig magic first are not exclusive

The fact that something takes a lot of time and effort does not mean that it's what you're best at.
Arguably, it means the opposite.

Actually, that was in reference in the amount of effort it takes to learn how to cast a spell, since you were keen on pointing out that start with 21 skills and 12 spells

The point being that learning how to even cast a spell is a significant amount of study and effort
here, in simpler terms - it takes just as much effort to learn to cast spells as it takes to learn a completely new OCC

What if the Cit Rat is a psychic, though?
Does that mean that he suddenly favors psionics over skills?
Or does he favor skills over psionics?

And City Rats have cybernetics.
Don't some City Rats rely on their cybernetics to survive?
Does that mean they favor skills or cybernetics?

And if you have a psychic City Rat with cybernetics, what then?
Which ONE thing does he rely on to survive?

Or is it possible that he relies on any and all of these, using whichever seems best at the time, instead of being a one-trick pony?

as for the psychic powers, I'm going to assume you are refering to the them being either a minor or major psychic, which means they either have 2 powers form one of the 3 minor categories or, at best 8 from one of those same categories. But notice that if they are are a major psychic, they're skill bonuses go down, as well as the number of skills they get.

hmmm . . it's almost as if they are relying on their PSYCHIC ABILITIES rather than their SKILLS.

Not completely, mind you, but enough that it's noticeable.

As to the cybernetics, when compared to Borgs, or even headhunters, it's minor augmentation - not significan't enough to replace thier dependance on thier SKILLS

Mages get TWO things; skills and magic.
Wouldn't that mean that they get to do two things?
Use skills AND use magic?
Choosing whichever is more appropriate to the situation?

all classes get skills
the significance is that with some classes, it the ONLY thing they get.

Unless they have psionics.
If they do, does that make them a Psionic class?

see the answer to the City Rat Question, above

Uh, yeah... that doesn't really touch the point, which is that sometimes you're going to be using PPE faster than you regenerate it.
You can use it all loading guns, and find yourself too drained when that big spell is really needed.

common sense would be not to drain yourself out - do it over a period of time

TK Carbine takes 15 PPE per 6 shots.
TK Assault Rifle takes 1 PPE per shot, which is nice because you can reload it a bit at a time, but at 3d6 MD max, you're going to need a LOT of shots in a combat-heavy game.

check out the TK Light Machine-gun
up to 2D4x10, and a 2,000 ft range
and that's off a Ley Line

and also, don't forget that a level 1 LLW has an average of 130 PPE - it's not like recharging it will take a lot out of him - heck, he can do it twice and still have over half his PPE left

Possibly, depending on how you mean "take on" and how much he wants to drain himself.
Carpet of Adhesions combined with attack spells could kill the thing... eventually, if the mage has enough PPE.

Actuially, I was just thinking something as simple as Repel Animal
a first-level character can have it, don't forget that animals are -4 to save, and it only costs 7 PPE (affects up to 6 animals simultaneously)

dealing with the situation does not mean killing the thing infront of you

I don't think it'd be a struggle to get the borg off of him.

that's your opinion, but I would ask - what do you think the T-Rex can use to get him off?
certainly not those pathetic little arms of his
that large mouth of his can't reach everywhere, neither can his feet.
The tails the only thing he really has to worry about, and even then, somewhat limited against a Borg, since they typically have lets of MDC ,and, as you so generously mentoined, he has friends that are helping him

Nope.
Don't buy it.

NOW who's being inflexible?

Can't say, since I don't know what this part was about.

This was in reference to a GM allowing a Rogue scientist to exchange hi WP Energy Rifle to WP Bolt Action Rifle, so that he can use tranquilizers to subdue creatures for study

And I already showed how he would deal with it, USING HIS MICROSCOPE

No, you showed how he would deal with it using his negotiating techniques.

Actually, this was the scenario with the T-Rex

Addressed above.
This leaves you using magic when tech (or anything else) would do a better job.

depends on how you define a better job, and what the job is in the first place. I have yet to see you point out where TECH will do a better job than MAGIC.

Are you revising your statement to "A mage should rely on magic in combat, turning to other means only as a last resort?"

No, just pointing out that detailing frivolous uses of magic does nothing to help you arguement.

I wasn't talking about a Palladium Boxer.
I was talking about a professional boxer in the real world, to point out the silliness of the "people only ever do what they're best at, no matter the circumstances, except as a last resort."

Well, the discussion is about RIFTS CHARACTERS being pragmatic in RIFTS, particularly whether they would (or should) use TECHNOLOGY over MAGIC

Not how Mike Tyson goes through his average day

And because it's illegal to kick in a boxing match, so he could end his career.
And because he only gets his KO ability kicking in on a punch.

I never said he was in a match, and it never limits the "Automatic KO" to punches in the skill

But mostly because Palladium's combat rules are somewhat lacking in this area. There's little in-game reason to do anything other than Roundhouse kicks in SDC melee combat in Rifts.

unless of course you Role-Play instead of Roll-Play

But if a mage's area of expertise is magic, he IS disqualified from using other methods?
Weird.

offering to use your expertise =/ doing things that are not your area of expertise

Just that you must cast spells, except as a last resort.
Which means that talking isn't your first resort.
Neither is shooting.
Neither is running away (though you could fly or teleport).

are YOU going to sit down for a chat with a T-Rex?
and yes, I forgot to mention that the magic-user COULD talk with the King and offer his MAGICAL services in exchange for safe passage

RUE 113
Ley Line Walkers are inquisitive and open to new ideas, people, and philosophies. Many are literate, study areas of science and have no aversion to using high-tech weapons, vehicles, and equipment."

Shifters start with high-tech gadgets and weapons (laser distancers, gas masks, PDD recorders, hand-held computers, SMGs, Etc.

Elemental Fusionists "understand the use for money and often barter to be able to buy man-mage items that they need for their travels (knives, guns and flashlights for example)..."
And, like most other mages, start off with tech equipment.
I think it's safe to assume that they use it.

Mystics avoid human augmentation, "but will use modern tools, energy weapons, and body armor."
Which explains why they start off with modern weapons and gear.
For vehicles, there's an interesting note:
Mystics "tend to prefer a living animal (horse, fury beetle, etc)."
Which goes a bit with your theory, because they aren't that fond of tech vehicles.
But note the utter and complete lack of that statement in other Mage OCCs.
Then note that "Mystics also seem attracted to motorcycles, dune buggies, and ground hover vehicles."
Almost as if they had individual tastes, and weren't blindly biased towards magic.

Fine, then let me point you to the Book of Magic, pages 10 - 19
pay particular attention to the headings of:
"Wizards should use magic -- duh!"
"Mages are convinced magic IS superior. Remember it!"
"Everbody prefers what they are best at"
"Technology is Good"

yes - I know that last part may loko to be self-defeating, but i figured I mention it because it does state that most practicioners rely HEAVILY on MAGIC, as well as lists all the difficulties that come with using TECH items

I think I proposed that.

I was mentioning it as a way of saying he could make a deal with the King to burn an enemy for safe passage

It's sounding more and more like what you're trying to say is, "Mages always prefer to use magic over technology or other options... except for all the times when they don't prefer to use magic over technology."

A point that pretty much negates itself.

No, that's not what I'm saying
what I'm saying is that, given a particular problem, a mage's first thought (at least with regards of solving the problem) is going to be MAGIC.

such thoughts would be like "what spells do I have that can hlp me in this predicament?" or "what spell would be the best / most effective one to use here?"

I disagree. There are dozens of scenarios where the gun is the more important factor.

In most, if not all of those, a spell will work as well as a gun

You do know that the Energy Field is solid for the mage too, don't you?

not by the spell description - where does it say that?

Either way, without that gun (or other offensive capabilities, since we're discussing a mage who is geared towards defensive spells) you're screwed.

when did we say he was limited to defensive spells? he can also have firebolt at 1st levl as well - 4D6 per spell, meaning 7 to 8 blasts will do (56 PPE + 10 for CoA = 66 PPE, with 64 PPE left to cast Energy Field [6 times]) all from a 1st level LLW, with average PPE

And both are nice spells.
But neither is a replacement for actual armor.

Actually, they are - just use your "Regular Armor" as "emergency Armor", meaning that it will take the first hit and any hits that get through your normal (Spell) armor

Depending on how successful you are in life.

Yes, be if your that unsuccessful, your not likely to be able to repair you TECH armor, so again, Spell Armor is superior

Lots of tech weapons hit more than one target.
If you use the old burst/spray rules, most of them can.
Whether you do or not, missiles and grenades hit more than one target.

Yes, but bursts and sprays will have you going through E-Clips much quicker, and less likely to hit your target
Missiles are very expensive - You can recharge your PPE for free
And they still don't do as well untill you get into the medium and long-range variety, which are restricted to large vehicles and robots
As for Grenades - Fire Glode will beat them out almost every time (only fails if your target is immune to magic or fire)

Yes, a lot of offensive spells have extra benefits.
And when these benefits are better than cranking out sheer damage those spells are the better option.
But if not, then they're not.

take a look at Mystic Quake, Steel Rain,, or Vicious Circle - They can out-damage ANY of yourTECH Weapons (save Space Warfare)

Actually, I think the writers defined the class themselves, then picked skills/abilities that fit with that definition.
Same thing when picking what skills are available for mages to take; they only allowed skills that they thought a mage might reasonably take.
Which means that if they can take a skill, it's reasonable for them to do so.

Also, note that LLWs MUST take at least 2 Science skills.
Kind of indicates an interest in science.

Science skills do not imply using technology
Archeaology
Anthropology
Astronomy (OK, a telescope)
Mathematics: Advanced
Zoology (Microscope, which is not required)
Botany (Microscope, which is not required)
Biology (Microscope, which is not required)

just to name a few

I've already addressed the relative benefits of TW weapons vs. Tech weapons.

so have I

You've never been in a long combat, then.
That explains your lack of perspective here.

Fact is, lots of people use magic in combat, and most of them still end up in some pretty long combats.
Apparently relying solely on magic is a reasonable option in your group, for how your GM runs things, but it's NOT in a lot of other people's games.
Which leaves you trying to project ideas that are good in your group onto groups where the ideas aren't so hot.

Perhaps, but then again, we do things by the book, so not sure how my group's experience should be much different from others

Dropped War of the Apocalypse demons in 3 melee rounds - not long enough to burn though that much ammo

Not going to touch that one with a 10' pole.
Except to say that it doesn't strengthen your argument.

I knew you were going to say something on that, so here's some more background, before you get TOO judgemental

Group:
True Atlantean Shifter - (ME)
True Atlantean Juicer
Magebane
Lost One (from Mercenaries) - with the APV
Battle Magus
Techno-Wizard - with a stolen CS Officer's Car

I had summoned a Major Fire Elemental, a Seraph, and some entites (using the spell: to possess a couple PA suits that we "acquired")

it's really not that impossible when you conside the Apocalypse Demons take DOUBLE DAMAGE from MAGICAL FIRE.

several Fire Globes helped alot as well

and he was alone (his Nether Beast was Banished on the First Round, First Action)

And which would the Mega-Horse fall into?
And how would a Shifter in North America know about beasts living in Russia?

Well, in this case, I contacted it through a Rift (they don't have to go to a different dimension) and asked it to be.
And I wasn't in North America at the time (another benefit of being a Shifter - lots of opportunity to travel), I was in Europe.

Lore: Psychics
Lore: D-Bees (at a penalty, because they aren't "humanoid")

Then what you mean is incorrect, for the reasons I mentioned.

then you are being unrealistic, impractical, and ignoring basic concepts of engineernig

Combat damage isn't "wear and tear."

True, I mention it because combat-type manuevers typicall put stress above and beyond normal opperating levels

"pushing them to thier limits" as it were.

Killer Cyborg wrote:
Yup.
In two attacks.
So for every casting of SPA, you could do:
12d6 with an L-20
2d4x10 with an NG-P7
2d6x10 with a Wilk's 457

IF you're not interrupted mid-casting.

put it into a Talisman
Or a Scroll

As to the being interrupted:

Spinning blades, which will parry for you
Or, have a minion (such as a golem) parry for you

Power Bolt: 5D6 + (2 x level), excellent range, and does more damage at high levels than you tech rifles

Again, takes two attacks.
Again, chance of being interrupted.
Again, more damage with tech weapons.

As above, though the damage you may have me on - still, at that level, it has BETTER range than you rifles

Call Lightning: 1D6 x level, and ALWAYS hits - will beat out any of your at later levels

Yup.
So any mage 6th level or higher is better off with Call Lightning than an L-20, unless the target is more than 300' away.
8th level or higher, and you don't need that NG-P7 (except for the range issue).
And at 10th level, you finally don't need that Wilk's 457 (except for the range issue).
Which means that at 10th level or more, in close range combat, you FINALLY don't need that gun.... except that the spell still takes 2 attacks to cast, so nevermind all that.
Maybe at 20th level...

Sure, if you hit EVERY TIME.
But you DON'T
I DO

Chain Lightning: As Call Lightning, but will hit 1 target per level (no auto-hit though)

Can't find "Chain Lightning" in the BoM.
Where is it located?

Library of Bletherad

Lightning Arc: 4D6 + (2 x level), again beating out your tech weapons at higher levels

Actually, this is the closest to matching a tech weapon.
It's got decent damage (though not as good as a high-end rifle, not until you're high level), and the range is as about as good as an energy pistol at medium levels. If you have the time to cast the spell, if the enemy is in close range, it's a very good spell to use.
But if you need the range, or if you don't get that spell off before combat (or before somebody interrupts you), then you're better off drawing that gun.
Also, it's pretty expensive: 30 PPE.
In a heavy combat game, that can drain your reserves pretty quickly.

when you have close to 300, 30 isn't that much
and remember, it stays around for quite a bit

Meteor: 1D6x10 to EVERYTHING in a 40 ft RADIUS

Yup, that's another good one.
This flat-out beats a mini-missile launcher for most mages.
It doesn't have the range, but it's got the damage, it's beats the radius, and you don't have to lug around a mini-missile launcher (or buy new missiles).
Casting time's a downside, of course, but the biggest problem is the sheer cost of the spell, 75 PPE.
That's 8 hours of meditation you need to make up the loss.
Pretty darned good spell, but there are going to be times when it's better to use technology.

If there's only a few enemies, you could well be better off using that Wilk's 457. By the time you get that spell off, you could have just shot two of them for the same damage, and without spending half your PPE to do it.
If there's only one enemy, you'd be clearly better off with a good gun.

yes, PPE costly, but Create Scroll can help A LOT here, as can Time Hole.
I don't advise this for all situations, but there are times when it makes all the difference

Don't remember that.

I can renew my armor, Tech Can't
thus I can afford to take hits getting to you, because when I'nm in range, I can renew my armor back to full.

true, but there are other things to use against such targets
as for the save - they STILL take half damage - if the dodge, they take nothing from your tech weapon

And now that they've made Aimed Shots take more time, that's a much better argument.
But if they dodge, then they're out an attack (unless they're juicers, in which you're better off simo-attacking so they can't dodge), which is often as good as inflicting damage.

depends on who has more attacks
And whether you want a protracted fight or to end things quickly

Don't remember what this bit was about, but I'll take a stab and say that you can't.

this was about taking several WPs - you don't need to

Nope.
The basic argument here is whether or not mages should ALL rely on magic over tech, or whether it's up to the individual and the circumstances, and to what degree.

If you take the skills to use Tech Items, your going to use Tech Items
If you don't, then you won't

People can think and stay within their area of expertise.
But if they only stay within their area of expertise, rejecting other options, then they're not thinking.

how does that stop them from thinking?

Does a Physicist, who seeks to better understand the world through Physics, stop thinking?

All magical knowledge of LLW =/ Single Skill of City Rat

Depends on how you're measuring.
That one skill is "what a city rat is best at," just like magic seems to be for a mage.

Spellcasting =/ to a single skill

again I point to the fact that it takes TWICE as much XP to change to a Magic-casting class than it does to a non-magic-casting class

what do you think that extra study is put towards?

The standard LLW, as I've pointed out, has no problems with using technology, and often does use it.

He can just as well leave it all behind, with little difference in his capabilities

Also, check out RUE 188:
"It is important to point out that unlike the CS who completely reject technology in all its forms, few practitioners of magic dismiss technology out of hand. While it is true that most rely heavily on their magic powers and natural abilities, most human and D-Bee sorcerers also use technology. Energy weapons, vibro-blades, portable computers, recorders, cameras, robot medical systems, language translators, radio communicators, optic systems (binoculors, etc), partial MDC body armor, light vehicles, air filters and goggles are all commonly part of the magic characters' gear and equipment."
"Bionics... and the wearing of environmental body armor... are avoided like the plague, but only because they interfer with spell casting and the use of magic."

Yes, it's also mention in the BoM section I mentioned in the post above, but I would like to point out the it is true that most rely heavily on their magic powers and natural abilities.

I never said they NEVER use tech

Sure, but "The Mind Melters relies almost entirely on his incredible psychic powers, a sharp mind and cunning, more than education, weapons or anything else."
Says so right in the class description.

Any of the mage classes say anything similar?

See the BoM sections mentioned above

Crazies "tend to be reactionary, believe themselves to be indestructible, take needless risks, and have a complete disregard for personal safety..."

Juicers "are cold, brutal, killing machines who don't care if they die young." While some Juicers are going to use strategy and tactics, many aren't going to bother.

Which is why these would be considered in the "Augmented" group, who's expertise is their particular abilities and combat

The few Men-At-Arms OCCs that specify an emphasis on military tactics/strategy are headhunters and CS military OCCs.
Most of the M&M classses (or rather, a many members of these classes) are going to have the same sort of god-complex that the Crazies have; they're not going to plan things out carefully as a first resort.

and thus, these are the ones I would identify as "tactics" classes

In short, they use every option they have, they just have fewer options.
A mage has more options, but he should still use every option he has.

this is an "All horses are the same color" arguement

No, I just used the same argument you were using.
I only threw out common sense as a result of that argument.

IF you had been using common sense, then I wouldn't have bothered to argue against it.
But you weren't, and all I did was show you that.

I never stopped using common sense, despite what you may think

Prove that playing to your strength is NOT common sense

So you have to buff up your animal as well as yourself, and use up 2x the PPE.
I can see some mages wanting to do that, instead of having the speed, shelter, possible TW enhancements and other advantages in tech vehicles, but I can't see ALL mages wanting that.
Or even most mages.

never said it HAD to be done

you commented on the high cost of TW enhancements before - not needed when you have a mount

Sheltered in a vehicle prevents you from casting spells outside of it, so I don't see that being a good choice.

Speed, especially in certain environments, only makes you MORE of a target - hovercraft kick up a lot of sand in a desert that can be seen very far away, and tire treads are more conspicuous than animal tracks

And, as a Shifter, I can get to my destinations MUCH QUICKER than any vehicle ever could

And if your really want the TW enhancements, put them on the riding harness / saddle

Of all the mages in the main book, only Mystics are listed as preferring mounts over vehicles, and they're about as likely to pick a hover cycle.

I thought Shifters were mentioned as well *(they were in the previous book)
I can't really argue with that, though I would like to point out that it makes more sense for them to have a riding animal, for the reasons mentioned above - but that's another argument

suffice it to say I will grant you that:
By the book descriptions for thier vehicles, Magic-users are likely to use a tech vehicle

few moving or electronic parts = less likely to break down

I believe I mentioned that we know nothing about the relative delicateness of TW items.

adressed below

All it tells me is the visibly obvious ingredients, not the necessity or fragility of the various components.
What do those three wires do? Are they MDC? If not, then they could snap pretty easily.

obviously you've never worked with wires
they only snap when they are pulled beyond thier limit, and even then, they stretch first (ductility)

these wires are inside the handle, and thus are NOT being pulled
No snapping

Does the shape of those wires matter, do they have to be twisted in a certain pattern? Do the rubies have to be set at a precise angle? How are those rubies actually set into the weapon? How's that copper bracket attached?

All of which is still less complicated than what would feasibly go into a Vibro-Sword

More descriptive than a lot of tech weapons, but still not much to go on.
But say it was... we still don't have jack about how vibro-weapons are designed, so we can't compare them.

So, compare it to an electric knife from today - it is reasonable to assume a Vibro-Sword would be MORE complicated than that

And the Flaming Sword is less complicated than the Electric Knife

See New West or SoT #1

I'd much, much rather not.
Why don't you just say what you're trying to say?

A Glittermount and Wingboard are less complicated than a Hoverbike
they have fewer moving parts
they have fewer electronics

By those elements alone, they are less prone to fail

Killer Cyborg wrote:

My problem is that too many times, when people say "be pragmatic", they revert to tech, and doing so takes away a lot of the flavor of the game.

See, that's where I object.
Where the game loses flavor is when people think they have to choose between various options, instead of mixing and matching.
One of the things that made me come over to Rifts was the fact that mages weren't stuck using daggers, darts, and robes in combat; they could actually fight like anybody else.
Just like most fantasy mages.
Read through the Lord of the Rings books, then count up how many times Gandalf uses his sword over casting a spell (granted, it's a magic sword, but in a medieval world that's the equivalent of a magic gun, which is a blending of both magic and tech).

Rifts is a world of endless possibilities, and the only time it loses flavor is when people think that a certain class has to limit itself to only one possibility.

and if you want to do such, there are PLENTY of Magic-using classes that do so.

My issue is that, in combat, it seems a lot of people revert to the energy pistol and other tech items - taking the "easy" way out
Yes, often the ranges are much better than spells, but really, how often does combat take place at maximum range?

But really consider whether you would be better off with a mount than a hoverbike or ATV - you'd probably be surpised at the benefits of having a mount.

There are advantages in having a mount.
There are advantages in having a vehicle.
Which is why some mages will choose one, and other mages will choose the other.

But, as you pointed out earlier ,starting magic-users typically don't see that in thier equipment list, when the option at least should be there.

They can do more.
Which is why a lot of my mages prefer NOT to waste their PPE in simple combat.
It's like the old saying, "Never play an ace when a deuce will do."

I have personally never gone through the majority of my PPE in combat.
But then, appearantly I have short combats

ALSO, some thi9ngs that help mitigate such concerns are:
Create Magic Scroll
Talisman (which I don't have yet)
Energy Sphere (helps with Create Magic Scroll)
Fire Globe - these babies stay around for weeks - and you can generally cast a couple before you bed down for the night and have the PPE back by morning
TW Items
Rune Weapons - obviously not an option for most, which is why they are so valuable in the first place

IF your GM allows you to summon them with that spell, they'd count as exotic animals, so you get 1 per level.
I don't remember how tough leatherwings are, but you'd probably have to be a pretty high level to take out 6 SAMAS that way.

Good idea either way, though.

Just keep in mind that that one spell takes 125 PPE to cast, so let's hope you didn't blow your PPE on Meteor or a bunch of Call Lightnings or recharging a bunch of PPE-Clips earlier in the day.

yes, they did count as exotic animals, but at 8th level, that's still 8 of them
they have as much or more MDC that SAMAS (1D4x100 each), and can dive bomb for 4D4x10 (though it does use all of thier 3 attacks). Still, when the SAMAS are expecting NO AIR SUPPORT, the element of surprise can mean all the difference

Yes, the cost is much, but that's the balance - one powerful spell in lieu of a lot of little ones

And, if it's from a Call Staff or Scroll - you never need use your own PPE.

macksting wrote:Shazbot. Certainly have me on Sustain. Under what other circumstances other than flight (or other than 75 PPE attack spells; that is a lot, you must admit) is magic clearly superior to tech?
Obviously, by the way, you'd want to renew the Sustain spell before it wears off, lest you expose yourself for that brief period of lapse. It's a worst-case scenario, but when you've got a spell that lasts 24 hours, why cut it close?

Well, it's 24 hours per level, so the higher the level, the less often you have to renew it

as for the 75 PPE Meteor, I would advise learning Create Magic Scroll - you should be able to make one even at low- to mid-levels, and that's away from a Ley Line. remember that spells like these you don't use in every combat, so you should be able to get by with just a couple

as far as superior, it really depends on your class - I've found that as a Shifter linked to a God of Magic - I have been able to do a LOT - Shifters are able to get a lot of higher-level spells at the lower levels, and the link was able to fill in some in the begining, as well as provide a larger base PPE.

I can, on my own and at (almost) any time I want, create a Dimensional portal to anywhere I want on RIFTS Earth (I can cast it for only 250 (half for being a shifter, half for staying in the same dimension), which eats through nearly all of my own PPE).
Mystic Portal is great for crossing rivers and chasms.
Energy Sphere is really good to help with higher-level magics.
Mental Blast is great aganist people in non-Power armor, since it goes straight to HP and doesn't touch the armor.
Magic Pigeon is great for long-distance communications - cannot be intercepted by a radio and can have a longer range than one too.
Mystic Warrior helps even the odds in combat, and gives your enemies a more immediate threat to deal with - same with golem, or almost any summon spell.
Tame Beast can get you a really nice animal helper (particularly a Fury Beatle - I just found out those things can carry 20 tons on thier back, AND drag 40 MORE tons behind them - better than any vehicle I know of, if not necessarily as fast)
Repel Animals can be helpful in the wilderness, instead of dealing with that snarling T-Rex through old-fashioned means
Armor Bizarre is patricularly nice at mid to high levels - as much MDC as Dead Boy armor, and can be cast in a single action
Fire Glode - better than any grenade you'll ever find - 5D6 on contact, and then 5D6 per round for 1D4 minutes
Life Ward will save your skin, and it just gets downright sickening on a Juicer


those are just a few

Malakai wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:
Yup.
In two attacks.
So for every casting of SPA, you could do:
12d6 with an L-20
2d4x10 with an NG-P7
2d6x10 with a Wilk's 457

IF you're not interrupted mid-casting.

put it into a Talisman

Yes, the relatively few mages who know that particular 13th level spell can indeed spend 500 PPE to make a 3-shot item.
But it's hardly a practical replacement for a gun.

Or a Scroll

Scrolls aren't going to save you any time, unless you to around carrying an open scroll in front of you, ready to read it in case of trouble.
And even then, after that, it's back to 2 attacks per casting: one to pull out the scroll, one to read it.

As to the being interrupted:

Spinning blades, which will parry for you
Or, have a minion (such as a golem) parry for you

Right.
2 attacks to cast spinning blades.
Hope you don't get interrupted while you're casting the spell that'll hopefully keep you from getting interrupted.
And that whopping +2 to parry isn't a reliable way to stop incoming ranged attacks (though +6 to parry is fairly decent for melee).
(Yes, you can put Spinning Blades into an amulet, IF you happen to know that particular high-level spell. Otherwise...)

Power Bolt: 5D6 + (2 x level), excellent range, and does more damage at high levels than you tech rifles

Again, takes two attacks.
Again, chance of being interrupted.
Again, more damage with tech weapons.

As above, though the damage you may have me on - still, at that level, it has BETTER range than you rifles[/quote]

Yup, the range is pretty good.
Other stuff still stands.

Call Lightning: 1D6 x level, and ALWAYS hits - will beat out any of your at later levels

Yup.
So any mage 6th level or higher is better off with Call Lightning than an L-20, unless the target is more than 300' away.
8th level or higher, and you don't need that NG-P7 (except for the range issue).
And at 10th level, you finally don't need that Wilk's 457 (except for the range issue).
Which means that at 10th level or more, in close range combat, you FINALLY don't need that gun.... except that the spell still takes 2 attacks to cast, so nevermind all that.
Maybe at 20th level...

Sure, if you hit EVERY TIME.
But you DON'T
I DO

Close enough.

Let's go with the L-20.
At 6th level (which is when Call Lightning does the same damage) the mage would have a 75% chance to hit, which means he hits 3 times for every 2 Call Lightnings. 50% more damage per melee.

Can't find "Chain Lightning" in the BoM.
Where is it located?

Library of Bletherad

So not something that Rifts mages are really going to know.

Lightning Arc: 4D6 + (2 x level), again beating out your tech weapons at higher levels

Actually, this is the closest to matching a tech weapon.
It's got decent damage (though not as good as a high-end rifle, not until you're high level), and the range is as about as good as an energy pistol at medium levels. If you have the time to cast the spell, if the enemy is in close range, it's a very good spell to use.
But if you need the range, or if you don't get that spell off before combat (or before somebody interrupts you), then you're better off drawing that gun.
Also, it's pretty expensive: 30 PPE.
In a heavy combat game, that can drain your reserves pretty quickly.

when you have close to 300, 30 isn't that much
and remember, it stays around for quite a bit

Sure, if you have 300 PPE, that's great; you can cast the spell a whopping 10 times, and it "only" takes 3 hours of meditation to recover the casting cost.
But most mages don't, so most mages are better off with a gun.

Yup, Meteor's another good one.
This flat-out beats a mini-missile launcher for most mages.
It doesn't have the range, but it's got the damage, it's beats the radius, and you don't have to lug around a mini-missile launcher (or buy new missiles).
Casting time's a downside, of course, but the biggest problem is the sheer cost of the spell, 75 PPE.
That's 8 hours of meditation you need to make up the loss.
Pretty darned good spell, but there are going to be times when it's better to use technology.

If there's only a few enemies, you could well be better off using that Wilk's 457. By the time you get that spell off, you could have just shot two of them for the same damage, and without spending half your PPE to do it.
If there's only one enemy, you'd be clearly better off with a good gun.

yes, PPE costly, but Create Scroll can help A LOT here, as can Time Hole.
I don't advise this for all situations, but there are times when it makes all the difference

Yes, Create Scroll is a handy 11th level spell that most mages won't know.
Yes, Meteor is extremely handy in some circumstances.
But a lot of the time, it's not.
Which is my only real point here; there are plenty of times where magic isn't going to be as good as tech.
(Just as there are plenty of times where the reverse is true)

Don't remember that.

I can renew my armor, Tech Can't
thus I can afford to take hits getting to you, because when I'nm in range, I can renew my armor back to full.[/quote]

No idea what this was in reference to.

true, but there are other things to use against such targets
as for the save - they STILL take half damage - if the dodge, they take nothing from your tech weapon

And now that they've made Aimed Shots take more time, that's a much better argument.
But if they dodge, then they're out an attack (unless they're juicers, in which you're better off simo-attacking so they can't dodge), which is often as good as inflicting damage.

depends on who has more attacks
And whether you want a protracted fight or to end things quickly

1/2 damage isn't going to end the fight quickly either.

this was about taking several WPs - you don't need to

You don't need NOT to either.
Point?

The basic argument here is whether or not mages should ALL rely on magic over tech, or whether it's up to the individual and the circumstances, and to what degree.

If you take the skills to use Tech Items, your going to use Tech Items
If you don't, then you won't

Right.
Which means it's up to each mage whether he's going to use technology or not, and to what extent.

Which is all I've been saying.

People can think and stay within their area of expertise.
But if they only stay within their area of expertise, rejecting other options, then they're not thinking.

how does that stop them from thinking?

Because any thinking person knows that the world is more than just one thing.

Does a Physicist, who seeks to better understand the world through Physics, stop thinking?

Yup.
Just as soon as he assumes he can use his knowledge of Physics to win a spelling bee, or understand why is girlfriend is upset at him, or anything else where his knowledge simply isn't applicable.
And when his knowledge is applicable, but impractical.

Spellcasting =/ to a single skill

again I point to the fact that it takes TWICE as much XP to change to a Magic-casting class than it does to a non-magic-casting class

what do you think that extra study is put towards?

An attempt at game balance.
Changing the ways the character thinks about reality.

The standard LLW, as I've pointed out, has no problems with using technology, and often does use it.

He can just as well leave it all behind, with little difference in his capabilities.

a. No, not really.
b. I never said that mages couldn't try to do that.
Just that it would be the exception, not the rule.

Also, check out RUE 188:
"It is important to point out that unlike the CS who completely reject technology in all its forms, few practitioners of magic dismiss technology out of hand. While it is true that most rely heavily on their magic powers and natural abilities, most human and D-Bee sorcerers also use technology. Energy weapons, vibro-blades, portable computers, recorders, cameras, robot medical systems, language translators, radio communicators, optic systems (binoculors, etc), partial MDC body armor, light vehicles, air filters and goggles are all commonly part of the magic characters' gear and equipment."
"Bionics... and the wearing of environmental body armor... are avoided like the plague, but only because they interfer with spell casting and the use of magic."

Yes, it's also mention in the BoM section I mentioned in the post above, but I would like to point out the it is true that most rely heavily on their magic powers and natural abilities.

I never said they NEVER use tech

You said that they use it "as a last resort."
Which isn't true, as I keep pointing out.
SOME might do things that way, but most don't.

Sure, but "The Mind Melters relies almost entirely on his incredible psychic powers, a sharp mind and cunning, more than education, weapons or anything else."
Says so right in the class description.

Any of the mage classes say anything similar?

See the BoM sections mentioned above

Yes, mages rely heavily on their powers.
"Heavily" /= "Primarily"

Crazies "tend to be reactionary, believe themselves to be indestructible, take needless risks, and have a complete disregard for personal safety..."

Juicers "are cold, brutal, killing machines who don't care if they die young." While some Juicers are going to use strategy and tactics, many aren't going to bother.

Which is why these would be considered in the "Augmented" group, who's expertise is their particular abilities and combat

Except that there isn't an "Augmented" category of OCCs, only "Men At Arms", "Adventures & Scholars", "Practitioners of Magic", "Psychics", Racial Character Classes, and "Coalition Soldiers."

Look in the book.

If you want to seperate "augmented" Men At Arms from other types, that's cool; just say so when you make your claim.
Don't just say "Men At Arms" and expect me to know which OCCs you're including and which you aren't.

In short, they use every option they have, they just have fewer options.
A mage has more options, but he should still use every option he has.

this is an "All horses are the same color" arguement

I've been saying the same about your argument.
Personally, I think there are all kinds of horses in Rifts.

But if you really think there's a good argument why City Rats (as a rule) should use everything available to them, but mages (as a rule) should NOT use everything available, go ahead and make it.

Prove that playing to your strength is NOT common sense

You're phrasing it wrong.
Try: "Prove that always playing to your strength, even when it's not applicable or practical, is NOT common sense."

And I already have.

So you have to buff up your animal as well as yourself, and use up 2x the PPE.
I can see some mages wanting to do that, instead of having the speed, shelter, possible TW enhancements and other advantages in tech vehicles, but I can't see ALL mages wanting that.
Or even most mages.

never said it HAD to be done

Depending on what mount you have, yeah, it would.
SDC animals or light MDC animals are going to need protection in combat or they're dead.

you commented on the high cost of TW enhancements before - not needed when you have a mount

Yeah, it can be cheaper.
Cheaper is not always better.

Which leaves us once again with, "Sometimes tech is better, sometimes not."

Sheltered in a vehicle prevents you from casting spells outside of it, so I don't see that being a good choice.

Being able to cast spells from horseback doesn't protect you from enemy ambushes or hailstorms or even rain.
You can always lean out a window if you need to cast spells.

Speed, especially in certain environments, only makes you MORE of a target - hovercraft kick up a lot of sand in a desert that can be seen very far away, and tire treads are more conspicuous than animal tracks

And yet, sometimes speed is more important than stealth.

Besides, I'd say that riding a freakin' FURY BEETLE would kick up dust too, not to mention attracting attention in its own right.

Once again, sometimes tech is better, sometimes not.

And, as a Shifter, I can get to my destinations MUCH QUICKER than any vehicle ever could

Sure, if you have Teleport: Superior, and you have the 600 PPE available, and you want to risk teleporting to the wrong place accidently.
But most don't.

And if your really want the TW enhancements, put them on the riding harness / saddle

Sorry; don't buy that.

suffice it to say I will grant you that:
By the book descriptions for thier vehicles, Magic-users are likely to use a tech vehicle[/quote

Thank you.

All it tells me is the visibly obvious ingredients, not the necessity or fragility of the various components.
What do those three wires do? Are they MDC? If not, then they could snap pretty easily.

obviously you've never worked with wires
they only snap when they are pulled beyond thier limit, and even then, they stretch first (ductility)

I've worked with all kinds of wires. The kind of wire you use in an electric fence is pretty sturdy. The kind of wire used for certain electronic components are not.

these wires are inside the handle, and thus are NOT being pulled
No snapping

How do you know they're not being pulled by anything?
The book never says what those wires are for.

Does the shape of those wires matter, do they have to be twisted in a certain pattern? Do the rubies have to be set at a precise angle? How are those rubies actually set into the weapon? How's that copper bracket attached?

All of which is still less complicated than what would feasibly go into a Vibro-Sword

Perhaps, but that doesn't mean it's less durable.
And perhaps not.
Unless we know how each weapon works, we can't say one way or the other.

A Glittermount and Wingboard are less complicated than a Hoverbike
they have fewer moving parts
they have fewer electronics

By those elements alone, they are less prone to fail

Never seen a Glittermount, Wingboard, or hoverbike diagrammed out, and I don't know how any of them work, so I can't say one way or the other.

Malakai wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:Rifts is a world of endless possibilities, and the only time it loses flavor is when people think that a certain class has to limit itself to only one possibility.

and if you want to do such, there are PLENTY of Magic-using classes that do so.

Was the irony there deliberate?

My issue is that, in combat, it seems a lot of people revert to the energy pistol and other tech items - taking the "easy" way out

This is how people behave.
They do what's easiest, or what seems easiest.
It's that way in the real world, so it should be that way in the game world.

Yes, often the ranges are much better than spells, but really, how often does combat take place at maximum range?

Depends on the players, the GM, and the campaign in question.

There are advantages in having a mount.
There are advantages in having a vehicle.
Which is why some mages will choose one, and other mages will choose the other.

But, as you pointed out earlier ,starting magic-users typically don't see that in thier equipment list, when the option at least should be there.

Luckily, characters don't always have to stick with their starting equipment for the rest of their lives.

They can do more.
Which is why a lot of my mages prefer NOT to waste their PPE in simple combat.
It's like the old saying, "Never play an ace when a deuce will do."

I have personally never gone through the majority of my PPE in combat.
But then, appearantly I have short combats

Or few combats per day, with time to rest inbetween.
Or both.

ALSO, some things that help mitigate such concerns are:
Create Magic Scroll
Talisman (which I don't have yet)
Energy Sphere (helps with Create Magic Scroll)
Fire Globe - these babies stay around for weeks - and you can generally cast a couple before you bed down for the night and have the PPE back by morning
TW Items
Rune Weapons - obviously not an option for most, which is why they are so valuable in the first place

All of those things can mitigate some concerns for people who have them, and for people who want to deal with the downsides of each (Fire globes are great, but bulky, for example).
For others, a gun's going to be the better option.

Yes, the cost is much, but that's the balance - one powerful spell in lieu of a lot of little ones

And if you have a gun, then you either have a good weapon even when you're out of PPE, or you have a good weapon you can use without depleting your PPE reserve.

And, if it's from a Call Staff or Scroll - you never need use your own PPE.

Sure, IF you have it.
If not, then not, and for most mages it'd be "not."

Killer Cyborg wrote:
Yes, the relatively few mages who know that particular 13th level spell can indeed spend 500 PPE to make a 3-shot item.
But it's hardly a practical replacement for a gun.

that's for the initial creation - spell cost + 50 to recharge them
again, can be done inbetween combats - again, with some of these spells, you wouldn't NEED to use them more than a few times in a single combat

Scrolls aren't going to save you any time, unless you to around carrying an open scroll in front of you, ready to read it in case of trouble.
And even then, after that, it's back to 2 attacks per casting: one to pull out the scroll, one to read it.

well, IIRC, you could put more than 1 spell on a single scroll, provided you had the PPE to do it

so, 1 to pull out the scroll, and then 1 per spell
just like 1 to pull out the gun, and one per shot

and again, for the higher-costing spells, you would only need a few

Right.
2 attacks to cast spinning blades.

Hope you don't get interrupted while you're casting the spell that'll hopefully keep you from getting interrupted.
And that whopping +2 to parry isn't a reliable way to stop incoming ranged attacks (though +6 to parry is fairly decent for melee).
(Yes, you can put Spinning Blades into an amulet, IF you happen to know that particular high-level spell. Otherwise...)

Talisman, scroll, or pre-cast (yes, not an option in an ambush, but really, are you ambushed all the time?)

And it seems you never address having someone, such as a summoned minion, parry for you?

Yup, the range is pretty good.
Other stuff still stands.

As above

Close enough.

Let's go with the L-20.
At 6th level (which is when Call Lightning does the same damage) the mage would have a 75% chance to hit, which means he hits 3 times for every 2 Call Lightnings. 50% more damage per melee.

Really? you hit 75% of the time?
Your Coalition Grunt is only +3 to strike
save those with H2H: Basic (who have +2), everyone has AT LEAST that much as a bonus to dodge, often more. - looks like your hitting at BEST, half the time

Of course, that’s at ranges greater then 50 ft, but hey, inside that the magic user can do a whole lot more, now can't he?

So not something that Rifts mages are really going to know.

No reason they can’t select it, particularly if they are a Shifter who links with a God of Magic

Sure, if you have 300 PPE, that's great; you can cast the spell a whopping 10 times, and it "only" takes 3 hours of meditation to recover the casting cost.
But most mages don't, so most mages are better off with a gun.

Or a good nights sleep, which will recover that and more

And since your average 1st level LLW has 130 – 140 PPE,, and an average of 10 per level, it would be reasonable to assume someone casting it would have at least 150 – 180 (since they aren’t likely to be knowing or using it at first level), which means they only use 20% or less – pretty decent, all things considered

In terms of your first-level LLW, I would suggest Energy Filed, Fire Bolt, Carpet of Adhesion, and Invisibility: Simple - they can take care of most problems with the above spells, and none of them cost more than 10 PPE

Yes, Create Scroll is a handy 11th level spell that most mages won't know.
Yes, Meteor is extremely handy in some circumstances.
But a lot of the time, it's not.
Which is my only real point here; there are plenty of times where magic isn't going to be as good as tech.
(Just as there are plenty of times where the reverse is true)

True, if you only have a few or single opponent, Meteor is not that useful (in terms of cost-effectiveness)
Neither are missiles or other area-effect weapons

Also, why do you assume that most mages aren't going to know Create Magic Scroll? Or Talisman? Most BEGINING mages, yes, but even then, you can get those at first level with some classes, such as the Shifter. And part of the power of the LLW is to be able to learn such spells, regardless of thier character level (a trait they share with many casters)

Don't remember that.

I can renew my armor, Tech Can't
thus I can afford to take hits getting to you, because when I'nm in range, I can renew my armor back to full.

No idea what this was in reference to.

This was in reference to your mentioning about the lack of range

1/2 damage isn't going to end the fight quickly either.

It will end it quicker than dealing no damage

this was about taking several WPs - you don't need to

You don't need NOT to either.
Point?

Because you can use those skill selections for other things – you spells work just as well

Why not be diversified in your skill selection, rather than taking half a dozen WPs that you really don’t need

If you take the skills to use Tech Items, your going to use Tech Items
If you don't, then you won't

Right.
Which means it's up to each mage whether he's going to use technology or not, and to what extent.

Which is all I've been saying.

It could also be said that you’ve been argueing that they should take WPs and use tech weapons, because that would be the pragmatic thing to do

Which it is not – it’s a choice of style, not of inherant practical value

Because any thinking person knows that the world is more than just one thing.

Doesn’t mean that sticking with their area of expertise is not thinking

Yup.
Just as soon as he assumes he can use his knowledge of Physics to win a spelling bee, or understand why is girlfriend is upset at him, or anything else where his knowledge simply isn't applicable.
And when his knowledge is applicable, but impractical.

Would it apply? No
So he wouldn’t use his knowledge here

Common sense says your knowledge of nuclear physics does not apply when planting a rose garden

NONE of the REALISTIC situations you have presented are ones where a mages magical knowledge WOULD NOT APPLY.

An attempt at game balance.
Changing the ways the character thinks about reality.

Game Balance? – that’s a very weak argument.
As to the second line, you think changing the way a character thinks of reality is equal to a single skill?

a. No, not really.

Yeah, really – just try it sometime

b. I never said that mages couldn't try to do that.
Just that it would be the exception, not the rule.

Matter of playing style – I can say I would see your view as the exception rather than the rule and back it up just as well

You said that they use it "as a last resort."
Which isn't true, as I keep pointing out.
SOME might do things that way, but most don't.

As they advance, it becomes more true

also, have you looked at those sections in the Book of Magic yet?

See the BoM sections mentioned above

Yes, mages rely heavily on their powers.
"Heavily" /= "Primarily"

I was refering to the sections mentioned in the previous post, especially the ones titled
“Wizards should use magic – duh!”
“Everybody prefers what they are best at”

Except that there isn't an "Augmented" category of OCCs, only "Men At Arms", "Adventures & Scholars", "Practitioners of Magic", "Psychics", Racial Character Classes, and "Coalition Soldiers."

Look in the book.

If you want to seperate "augmented" Men At Arms from other types, that's cool; just say so when you make your claim.
Don't just say "Men At Arms" and expect me to know which OCCs you're including and which you aren't.

I did – you weren’t reading carefully – it’s on page 3, the last post of the page

Magic-users - using magic
Psychics - using psychic powers
Augmented (a.k.a. Juicers, Crazies, Borgs, and PA / Robot Pilots) - thier particular area of augmentation & Combat
Men-at-Arms - Tactics, Logistics, and Combat
Skill-Classes (including City Rat, Vagabond, Rogue Scholar, Rogue Scientist, etc) - the skills and abilities that come with their particular class

I've been saying the same about your argument.
Personally, I think there are all kinds of horses in Rifts.

But if you really think there's a good argument why City Rats (as a rule) should use everything available to them, but mages (as a rule) should NOT use everything available, go ahead and make it.

It’s an “All horses” argument because City Rats only have ONE of those categories – Skills. So it’s just as correct as saying that City Rats focus on their SKILLS as to say that they rely on ALL OF THEIR ABILITIES.

That same equality falls apart when you have more than one category to choose from.

And have you ever heard the term "Jack-of-all-Trades, Master of none"?

You're phrasing it wrong.
Try: "Prove that always playing to your strength, even when it's not applicable or practical, is NOT common sense."

And I already have.

I’ve already said, if it’s not applicable – i.e. you CAN’T use it, then go with the other
As to being practical, I think we’ve gone with efficient and/or useful for definition.
So, yes,
Always playing to your stength in an in-efficient or non-useful manner is not common sense

I have never advocated such

Depending on what mount you have, yeah, it would.
SDC animals or light MDC animals are going to need protection in combat or they're dead.

And there are quite a few that have MORE MDC than your hovercycle

Such as that iconic Fury Beatle (actually, it has more than your ATV too)

you commented on the high cost of TW enhancements before - not needed when you have a mount

Yeah, it can be cheaper.
Cheaper is not always better.

In this case, yes it does, since you get the same effect, without having to buy the upgrades

Which leaves us once again with, "Sometimes tech is better, sometimes not."

When you want to speed THROUGH an area, yes, tech is better.
But when you want to speed PAST an area, magic is better

Being able to cast spells from horseback doesn't protect you from enemy ambushes or hailstorms or even rain.
You can always lean out a window if you need to cast spells.

You worry too much about rain, and hail storms aren’t going to bother you in a good set of leathers

As to the vulnerability of ambushes, consider the following
Your in a prime position to notice an ambush from a mount (nothing drowing out or muffling the noise)
Your mount has it’s own senses, which with a horse include senseing the supernatural – something that your tech can’t do.
When going through wooded areas, a vehicle, especially an ATV, is more likely to cause a disturbance than an animal walking through it, giving your enemies a better chance to notice you and set up that ambush

and yes, lets limit our mobility by stick it through a small opening in the vehicle.

And yet, sometimes speed is more important than stealth.

Besides, I'd say that riding a freakin' FURY BEETLE would kick up dust too, not to mention attracting attention in its own right.

If it’s runningg full blast, yeah – but even then, not nearly as much
And people are much more likely to dismiss the movement of some animal in the distance than they are of a hovercraft in the distance – one advertises the presence of someone there, the other doesn’t

And if speed is what you looking for, might I suggest Magic Adrenal Rush - +50% and two additional attacks / actions
Yes, it’s a short-lived effect, but really, when you can stop your enemies dead, all you need is a little bit of time

Sure, if you have Teleport: Superior, and you have the 600 PPE available, and you want to risk teleporting to the wrong place accidently.
But most don't.

Try Dimensional Portal – which only costs 250 for the Shifter to go in the same dimension, and you get it at 1st level
Or Teleport Self – you can get it at level 2, and it costs 120 PPE – 5 miles per level
So much for that Glitterboy ambush at the pass – just skipped over them entirely
Not possible for Tech

And if your really want the TW enhancements, put them on the riding harness / saddle

Sorry; don't buy that.

You don’t buy that you can put TW enhancements on something worn?
Cause it’s obvious they don’t need to be human to use them
Nor does it say that the wearer must activate them

suffice it to say I will grant you that:
By the book descriptions for thier vehicles, Magic-users are likely to use a tech vehicle

Thank you.

Your welcome – now don’t let it go to your head
And still, I think that’s a an issue with the writing – we can debate it on another thread

I've worked with all kinds of wires. The kind of wire you use in an electric fence is pretty sturdy. The kind of wire used for certain electronic components are not.

And both will bend before they break – however, as these wires are inside of a rigid body (the handle), and their ends are not being pulled, there’s no way for them to snap

these wires are inside the handle, and thus are NOT being pulled
No snapping

How do you know they're not being pulled by anything?
The book never says what those wires are for.

I’m going to got out on a limb and say that they are used to channle the PPE between the two rubies, the same way electrical wires channel electricty between two components

I think that’s a fair assumption to make

And going on that, there is nothing pulling on them

All of which is still less complicated than what would feasibly go into a Vibro-Sword

Perhaps, but that doesn't mean it's less durable.
And perhaps not.
Unless we know how each weapon works, we can't say one way or the other.

Well, we are assuming normal wear and tear, right? Not specific shots to the weapon itself?

The only thing to wear down (if it’s even possible) on the Flaming Sword is the wooden handle and the wires, and wood as been proven to survive quite a while

In a Vibro-Weapon, you have more moving parts and more electrical parts.
The moving parts are subject to mechanical fatigue
The electrical parts are subject to many things, of which include thermal warping / loosening of chips and degradation of contact points.

Sounds more prone to failure to me

Never seen a Glittermount, Wingboard, or hoverbike diagrammed out, and I don't know how any of them work, so I can't say one way or the other.

Then read the descriptions of them – not that hard to figure out

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Malakai wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:Rifts is a world of endless possibilities, and the only time it loses flavor is when people think that a certain class has to limit itself to only one possibility.

and if you want to do such, there are PLENTY of Magic-using classes that do so.

Was the irony there deliberate?

Yes, it was - those classes are made SPECIFICALLY to deal with both magic AND technology - thus are excluded from the arguuement

My issue is that, in combat, it seems a lot of people revert to the energy pistol and other tech items - taking the "easy" way out

This is how people behave.
They do what's easiest, or what seems easiest.
It's that way in the real world, so it should be that way in the game world.

Believe it or not, that's not the case
if that were the case:
noone would give money to charity - it's easier to just keep it
Everyone would end their education after Highschool - College isn't easy
everyone would drive automatic - no shifting needed
everyone would pay someoneelse to fix something - it's easier than doing it yourself

Also (IG), everyone would be a Witch as oppose to any other magic class, because it's the "easiest" way to learn magic.

And finally, Magic can be just as effective, if not moreso, just by putting some thought into it.

Yes, often the ranges are much better than spells, but really, how often does combat take place at maximum range?

Depends on the players, the GM, and the campaign in question.

Even if it does take place at maximum range, you can easily close range, again using superior armor to make up the difference

But, as you pointed out earlier ,starting magic-users typically don't see that in thier equipment list, when the option at least should be there.

Luckily, characters don't always have to stick with their starting equipment for the rest of their lives.

True, but really, why not just have them start out that way - it's actually cheaper IG

I have personally never gone through the majority of my PPE in combat.
But then, appearantly I have short combats

Or few combats per day, with time to rest inbetween.
Or both.

Just one question - why are you in multiple full-scale combats per day, for days on end?

Given how sparsely populated RIFTS is rumored to be, you shouldn't be hitting an enemy with every stone's throw

maybe this is the root of the arguement: How prevelant is combat really?

All of those things can mitigate some concerns for people who have them, and for people who want to deal with the downsides of each (Fire globes are great, but bulky, for example).
For others, a gun's going to be the better option.

Fire-Globes are no more bulky than a grenade, if that, and certainly weigh less.

and the others primarily assist for the higher-end spells.

Also, in terms of availability, Energy Sphere can be learned by any 2nd level Shifter for free. the others I see as often learned spells - why WOULDN'T a magic-user seek to learn these?

As for the gun being the better option, I disagree. Give me any comparable scenario, and you can go through it without a gun just as easily.

And if you have a gun, then you either have a good weapon even when you're out of PPE, or you have a good weapon you can use without depleting your PPE reserve.

would this not qualify as the "as a last resort" mention?
as to the second part, be mindful of your PPE and plan accordingly

And, if it's from a Call Staff or Scroll - you never need use your own PPE.

Sure, IF you have it.
If not, then not, and for most mages it'd be "not."

True of the Call Staff, not so much for the Create Magic Scroll - again, why WOULDN'T a caster seek to learn this spell?

Rogue Scientist wrote:Here are my thoughts on this:

A) I feel Techno-Wizardry was created, and then expanded, to fill in the gaps for those who want to play mages and keep the magic "flavor", but who also want the convenience and utility of tech. TW gizmos do that in a way that plays to the strengths of mages, imo.

As do I

I love the possibilites of TWs and their creations, but I also see them as defining the mid point between those who use tech and those who don't

B) I don't know where this idea came from that mages and psychics should face the world of Rifts with just a loincloth covering up their naughty parts and their special powers. Frankly, I find that pretty unrealistic. I don't know about you, but if I were planning on doing any "adventuring" in the world of Rifts, I'd be scared ****-less. I'd be packing on every layer of protection I could get, man, and I wouldn't care whether it was tech-based, magical, or psionic in nature.

LOL - magic-users in loin clothes
There's no reason for them not to wear SOME kind of body armor, but I see them as using it as an "emergency" thing - to take the first hit in an ambush or if something gets through their spell armor

C) Magic in Rifts is not weak. Far from it. Those who say otherwise really aren't playing their mages very well.

Yes, it is
Which is why it's disappointing to hear people putting it to the side in favor of a mere pistol - this is MAGIC here.

D) Questions like "Fly as the Eagle vs Hovercycle" are pretty limiting. A guy bothered to go out, buy/aquire a hovercycle, and learn how to use the damned thing. Why can't mages find faster ways of getting around than Fly as the Eagle, with a little prep time? Even discounting TW stuff, who's to say a mage wouldn't simply prefer a supernatural creature, entitity, or minion to transport them around?

My feeling is that they would prefer mounts vs hovercycles and the like
I agree that using spells such as Fly like the Eagle as the only means to get around are impractical and unrealistic - but nothings wrong with a mount

Mages often require more planning and creativity than tech-based players, but that's not necessarily a bad thing.

Yes, they do - which is one of the best reasons to play them

macksting wrote:So, uh, not many other situations where magic is blatantly superior to technology?
Does Sustain protect against skin contact hazards? Some nerve agents work on a skin contact basis, but you'd need much more than a gas mask for those worst-case scenarios anyway.

At risk of violating my topic charter, I feel TWizards were created for more than just a balance of magic and technology. I feel they were created because magitech rocks.
But that's for another topic.

Well, what other situations were you talking about?

how about the below comparisons

Skelebots vs Warrior Horde (Scroll)
minimal investure of resources (a scroll - PPE is renewable)
can get say 200 soldiers at a moments notice
no need to feed or care for them
slightly less MDC - but easy to replace - one could make at least 1 scroll per day, if not more, using Time Hole
count as magical sources of damage

Hover Cycle vs Phatom Mount
needs no maintenance
pilots itself
can never be lost or stolen
can acto on it's own (IIRC)

ATV vs Fury Beatle (acquired through Tame Beast)
Has more MDC
can carry more and pull more
cheaper to acquire / replace
better manueverability
inconspicuous in many environments (does not call attention to the presence of travelers)

Hireling vs Golem
typically more MDC, and it regenerates
little initial investment - stays with your forever (until destroyed)
Supernatural Strength
Completely loyal
Several Immunities

EBA vs Invincible Armor
higher MDC, which regenerates
half damage from some sources (IIRC)
will absorb ALL of the remaining amount of damage form an attack that overcomes the armor - yes, those 10 LRM Nuclear Multi-warhead missiles you just hit me with destroyed my armor, but I'm fine and unharmed

Radio vs Magic Pigeon + Distant Voice
MP
Completely Secure - no signal to intercept
superior range to any radio - it will get there, eventually
great for Site to Site communications for reports
DV
No need for equipment - can talk with whoever you can see
nearly untraceable (damn dogboys) means of communication

Missiles vs Deflect / Targeted deflection
Can defeat the "4-missiles always hit" rule - and grants you a bonus doing so
Most blast radius are too small to even touch the user for half damage
bonuses to parry typically higher than bonuses to strike for Missiles, and you get +4 from the spell itself

Laser-Resistant Armor vs Impervious to Energy
cannot be overcome by variable-frequency rifles
applies to Plasma, Ion, and Particle beam weapons
Not immediately noticeable

Brewing vs Water to Wine
instant alcohol - no waiting
only water needed

have any other comparisons you would like me to go over?

Malakai wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:
Yes, the relatively few mages who know that particular 13th level spell can indeed spend 500 PPE to make a 3-shot item.
But it's hardly a practical replacement for a gun.

that's for the initial creation - spell cost + 50 to recharge them
again, can be done inbetween combats

Still an impressive initial cost, something that most mages aren't going to get to do, at least not many times.
Still worse than a gun a lot of the times.

Personally, I save my Talismans for stuff that I can't effectively duplicate with a gun.
Like Time Slip and such.

- again, with some of these spells, you wouldn't NEED to use them more than a few times in a single combat

With some of the spells, like Meteor, sure.
But with the others, like Sub-Particle Acceleration, you would.

Scrolls aren't going to save you any time, unless you to around carrying an open scroll in front of you, ready to read it in case of trouble.
And even then, after that, it's back to 2 attacks per casting: one to pull out the scroll, one to read it.

well, IIRC, you could put more than 1 spell on a single scroll, provided you had the PPE to do it

so, 1 to pull out the scroll, and then 1 per spell
just like 1 to pull out the gun, and one per shot

No mention of that in the spell description.

Right.
2 attacks to cast spinning blades.

Hope you don't get interrupted while you're casting the spell that'll hopefully keep you from getting interrupted.
And that whopping +2 to parry isn't a reliable way to stop incoming ranged attacks (though +6 to parry is fairly decent for melee).
(Yes, you can put Spinning Blades into an amulet, IF you happen to know that particular high-level spell. Otherwise...)

Talisman, scroll, or pre-cast

Covered by the same points as usual:
Cost, scarcity, etc.

(yes, not an option in an ambush, but really, are you ambushed all the time?)

Pretty frequently, yeah.

And it seems you never address having someone, such as a summoned minion, parry for you?

Oh, sorry.
That's bunk.

I don't remember if parrying for other people has been addressed in the rules, but even if it has, and you can, it's still useless against ranged attacks.

And, of course, most mages don't have summoned minions.

Let's go with the L-20.
At 6th level (which is when Call Lightning does the same damage) the mage would have a 75% chance to hit, which means he hits 3 times for every 2 Call Lightnings. 50% more damage per melee.

Really? you hit 75% of the time?
Your Coalition Grunt is only +3 to strike
save those with H2H: Basic (who have +2), everyone has AT LEAST that much as a bonus to dodge, often more. - looks like your hitting at BEST, half the time

Only if people are dodging all the time, which most people don't do.
While dodging is pretty handy at times, it's usually not something worth doing in combat.

So not something that Rifts mages are really going to know.

No reason they can’t select it, particularly if they are a Shifter who links with a God of Magic

It's a rare spell that's only possible for Rifts mages if they get GM approval, so that's your reason.

Sure, if you have 300 PPE, that's great; you can cast the spell a whopping 10 times, and it "only" takes 3 hours of meditation to recover the casting cost.
But most mages don't, so most mages are better off with a gun.

Or a good nights sleep, which will recover that and more

A good night's sleep recovers 300+ PPE?
How do you figure?

And since your average 1st level LLW has 130 – 140 PPE,, and an average of 10 per level, it would be reasonable to assume someone casting it would have at least 150 – 180 (since they aren’t likely to be knowing or using it at first level), which means they only use 20% or less – pretty decent, all things considered

20% means you can do it 5 times before completely depleting yourself.
Not a bargain in my book.

why do you assume that most mages aren't going to know Create Magic Scroll? Or Talisman? Most BEGINING mages, yes, but even then, you can get those at first level with some classes, such as the Shifter. And part of the power of the LLW is to be able to learn such spells, regardless of thier character level (a trait they share with many casters)

1. "Shifters who are specifically linked to Gods of Magic" does NOT equal "most Mages."
2. Most mages are going to be level 1-5.
3. Generally speaking the only ways for a mage to learn those spells (other than Shifters who happen to be linked to Gods of magic) is for them to learn it on their own when they get to 10th and 13th level of experience, or to purchase the spell, which will cost 500,000 to 1 million credits to purchase them. And even if you come up with the money, there's still only a 10% chance that the spell you're looking for is actually available to be purchased.
That's not something that most mages are going to end up doing in their lifetime.
A spell can also be given as a boon/grant from a kingdom, or learned by a demon, etc. etc., but weather that actually happens, and how often, is up to the GM.
And I tend to think that any GM who hands out 10th-13th level spells to most mages is running a Monty Haul world.

This was in reference to your mentioning about the lack of range

Ah.
You're not grokking the range issue.
You seem to be imagining that it's somebody shooting from the other end of a football field.
That's not what I'm talking about.
There's dozens of situations where it's not as simple as "take a few hits while you run up close", or even "fly in close."

And it's assuming that your magic buffing is able to take the hits, etc. etc.

1/2 damage isn't going to end the fight quickly either.

It will end it quicker than dealing no damage

But that's not the other option.

you can use those skill selections for other things – you spells work just as well

As I keep pointing out, spells very often do NOT work just as well.

Why not be diversified in your skill selection, rather than taking half a dozen WPs that you really don’t need

The only time I mentioned anywhere near that number of WPs was to illustrate that it makes no sense to assume that every mage is going to always prefer magic in combat.

Quite obviously, anybody who takes a dozen WPs is not interested in diversity, not beyond diversity in weapons training.

And, as I keep pointing out, anybody TRULY interested in diversity isn't going to limit themselves to JUST magic (or just tech).

Which means it's up to each mage whether he's going to use technology or not, and to what extent.

Which is all I've been saying.

It could also be said that you’ve been argueing that they should take WPs and use tech weapons, because that would be the pragmatic thing to do

Which it is not – it’s a choice of style, not of inherant practical value

Sure it is.
Because there are times when magic is best and there are times when tech is best.
There's practical value in diversity.

Because any thinking person knows that the world is more than just one thing.

Doesn’t mean that sticking with their area of expertise is not thinking

It sure as hell does, when their area of expertise is inapplicable to the situation at hand, or less practical than other means.

Just as soon as he assumes he can use his knowledge of Physics to win a spelling bee, or understand why is girlfriend is upset at him, or anything else where his knowledge simply isn't applicable.
And when his knowledge is applicable, but impractical.

Would it apply? No
So he wouldn’t use his knowledge here

Common sense says your knowledge of nuclear physics does not apply when planting a rose garden

Yet you keep on insisting that people should stick with what they're best at, all the time.

NONE of the REALISTIC situations you have presented are ones where a mages magical knowledge WOULD NOT APPLY.

Untrue.
Laser distancers, hand-held computers, etc. etc. etc. are all tech stuff that can't be replaced by magic.
You have agreed to this.

The rest of what I've been discussing are places where magic is simply less practical than tech.
You can say that magic applies in combat, but I've shown that tech is generally a hell of a lot better.
Your only response has been to say, "But if you have a mage with access to 10th and 13th level spells, and he has time to rest and recover fully between combats, and they have summoned minions, then they don't need guns!"
But that doesn't cut it, because that's not going to be a large percentages of the mages on Rifts Earth.
The simple fact is that tech is, as a general rule, often a lot more practical than using just magic.

An attempt at game balance.
Changing the ways the character thinks about reality.

Game Balance? – that’s a very weak argument.

Uh, no... it's just a statement of fact.
Mages are more powerful than other classes, so they take longer to level up.

As to the second line, you think changing the way a character thinks of reality is equal to a single skill?

Nope.
It doesn't take up a skill slot at all.

a. No, not really.

Yeah, really – just try it sometime

Try what now?

b. I never said that mages couldn't try to do that.
Just that it would be the exception, not the rule.

Matter of playing style – I can say I would see your view as the exception rather than the rule and back it up just as well

Yeah, no idea what this was about either.

You said that they use it "as a last resort."
Which isn't true, as I keep pointing out.
SOME might do things that way, but most don't.

As they advance, it becomes more true

YES!
As they advance, a mage becomes more and more able to rely solely on magic.
But that's not most mages; that's the exceptional few.

also, have you looked at those sections in the Book of Magic yet?

Which sections? The essay by Hugh King?
Yeah, I've seen it.
I'm not impressed, and I don't think it really backs up your argument.

I was refering to the sections mentioned in the previous post, especially the ones titled
“Wizards should use magic – duh!”
“Everybody prefers what they are best at”

Quote the parts that you think are relevant if you want me to address them.

First off, I think that (based on this article) Hugh King is a twit.
He flat-out admits that "many times it may actually make the most sense" to use guns instead of technology, then says that mages should do it anyway. I don't buy that most mages are going to be snobby technophobes who lack common sense.

Wizards should use magic. Duh.
But that doesn't mean that they should use ONLY magic, because as we all know, it's not always applicable, and it's not always the best option.

Kev agrees with King's article, but what he agree with is that "mages are for characters who see the beauty and possibilities of magic," which I'm not arguing against, and that it's for characters "who intend to use magic for more than blasting their way out of trouble," which is something that I've been actively arguing FOR.
Mages sure as heck should use their magic for stuff other than combat; which is why it's often a good idea to have weapons to use IN combat.
And, of course, Kev finishes up one of his notes with "Of course, there's nothing wrong with playing an aggressive, gun-toting, combat oriented mage."
Which is something I've also been saying.

King goes on his little "Everybody prefers what they're best at," but I don't agree. I've met way to many people who prefer stuff that they're not good at.
And it goes off the assumption that a person's job defines them, which I disagree with, for a lot of the reasons why Kevin says he agrees with King:

"The whole idea behind the many different OCCs and RCCs is to create new and different characters."
But having all (or even most) mages be mindlessly prejudiced against magic really supports that notion.

"If the character's background, orientation, motives and unique powers are ignored, the character is likely to be two-dimensional..."
Yup.
But "unique powers" is only ONE of the four things he lists.
A character's background, motives, and personality (which he doesn't list) are just as important, if not more so, because "you need to think about the character's motives, hopes and dreams. His background and how past and present experiences are shaping that fictional character."
Yeah, Johnny Ley-Line grew up to be a Linewalker, but that doesn't mean that it's all he ever wanted to be, or that it's all that he actually IS.
Because even after completing his mage training, he's still partially that little kid who grew up watching the Rifts equivalent of Clint Eastwood movies, and he still has the laser pistol skills he picked up as a teen, which has kept honing as he got older.
Or whatever.

What King was trying to do was to fight against a trend in Rifts of players playing mages who relied too heavily on technology, rarely if ever using magic. That's cool, but the result (of this, and of the new spells and other crap designed to boost mages) was a swing the other way, so now instead of 2-dimensional mages who rely mostly on technology, we get 2-dimensional characters who try to rely almost entirely on magic.
So it's not a win, it's just a different kind of lose.

I did – you weren’t reading carefully – it’s on page 3, the last post of the page

I was reading carefully, back on page 3, but believe it or not I don't memorize the entire run of every online conversation I'm in.

It’s an “All horses” argument because City Rats only have ONE of those categories – Skills. So it’s just as correct as saying that City Rats focus on their SKILLS as to say that they rely on ALL OF THEIR ABILITIES.

That same equality falls apart when you have more than one category to choose from.

I don't see how.

And have you ever heard the term "Jack-of-all-Trades, Master of none"?

Yup.
What about it?

Always playing to your stength in an in-efficient or non-useful manner is not common sense

Glad we can agree on that.

I have never advocated such

"As a last resort" advocates it, because it means that you only turn to non-magical ways of doing things IF you can't think of any possible way for magic to work in that situation.
NOT if you can't think of any efficient way for magic to work in that situation.

This is the same thing that Hugh King describes with his Fire Bolt vs. Gun argument, where he admits that using a gun is often better, but insists that mages should cast magic anyway.

Depending on what mount you have, yeah, it would.
SDC animals or light MDC animals are going to need protection in combat or they're dead.

And there are quite a few that have MORE MDC than your hovercycle

Such as that iconic Fury Beatle (actually, it has more than your ATV too)

Fury Beetles come with their own problems.

you commented on the high cost of TW enhancements before - not needed when you have a mount

Yeah, it can be cheaper.
Cheaper is not always better.

In this case, yes it does, since you get the same effect, without having to buy the upgrades

Except that you don't always get the same effect.
For one thing, you can get TW effects for spells that you don't personally know.

Which leaves us once again with, "Sometimes tech is better, sometimes not."

When you want to speed THROUGH an area, yes, tech is better.
But when you want to speed PAST an area, magic is better

Which leaves us once again with, "Sometimes tech is better, sometimes not."

You worry too much about rain, and hail storms aren’t going to bother you in a good set of leathers

I disagree.
(Of course, EBA and a MDC mount would negate the effects of either, but EBA is tech)

As to the vulnerability of ambushes, consider the following
Your in a prime position to notice an ambush from a mount (nothing drowing out or muffling the noise)

Depends on the mount, the surface, how fast you're travelling, etc.

Your mount has it’s own senses, which with a horse include senseing the supernatural – something that your tech can’t do.

Yeah... a mage on horseback isn't a great idea, because of their ability to sense the supernatural.
"The animal's reactions will always be the same; intense nervousness, jumpiness, whimpering, hissing, growling, howling and alertness when the energies are sensed to be in the area. If possible the animals will try to leave the area and will flee if they get the opportunity."

When going through wooded areas, a vehicle, especially an ATV, is more likely to cause a disturbance than an animal walking through it, giving your enemies a better chance to notice you and set up that ambush

An ATV is also less likely to be seen as food, less likely to be distracted or scared, etc. etc.

and yes, lets limit our mobility by stick it through a small opening in the vehicle.

Why not?

And yet, sometimes speed is more important than stealth.

Which leaves us once again with, "Sometimes tech is better, sometimes not."

Besides, I'd say that riding a freakin' FURY BEETLE would kick up dust too, not to mention attracting attention in its own right.

If it’s runningg full blast, yeah – but even then, not nearly as much
And people are much more likely to dismiss the movement of some animal in the distance than they are of a hovercraft in the distance – one advertises the presence of someone there, the other doesn’t

Assuming they can tell one cloud of dust from another at a distance, which I don't think is a safe assumption.

And if speed is what you looking for, might I suggest Magic Adrenal Rush - +50% and two additional attacks / actions
Yes, it’s a short-lived effect, but really, when you can stop your enemies dead, all you need is a little bit of time

Not as fast as a hoverbike.

Sure, if you have Teleport: Superior, and you have the 600 PPE available, and you want to risk teleporting to the wrong place accidently.
But most don't.

Try Dimensional Portal – which only costs 250 for the Shifter to go in the same dimension, and you get it at 1st level

You mean the spell that send you to a random location in the chosen dimension, unless you're going to your sanctuary?

Or Teleport Self – you can get it at level 2, and it costs 120 PPE – 5 miles per level

Can't find "Teleport Self" anywhere.

You don’t buy that you can put TW enhancements on something worn?

I don't buy that you can put TW vehicle or armor enhancements on stuff that isn't a vehicle or armor.

And still, I think that’s a an issue with the writing – we can debate it on another thread

Send me a PM giving a brief overview of your thoughts.

I've worked with all kinds of wires. The kind of wire you use in an electric fence is pretty sturdy. The kind of wire used for certain electronic components are not.

And both will bend before they break – however, as these wires are inside of a rigid body (the handle), and their ends are not being pulled, there’s no way for them to snap

And we have no idea what the effect of them bending is.

How do you know they're not being pulled by anything?
The book never says what those wires are for.

I’m going to got out on a limb and say that they are used to channle the PPE between the two rubies, the same way electrical wires channel electricty between two components

I think that’s a fair assumption to make

And going on that, there is nothing pulling on them

Not knowing anything about how techno-wizardry works, I'm not going to make that same assumption.

But maybe you're right, and it's used to channel energy.
Happen to know for a fact that there can't be a mystical short in the system?

No, you don't; because we don't know anything about how it works.

Well, we are assuming normal wear and tear, right? Not specific shots to the weapon itself?

Not specific shots to the weapon, but wear & tear includes impacts from being dropped, bumped, etc.

In a Vibro-Weapon, you have more moving parts and more electrical parts.
The moving parts are subject to mechanical fatigue

Not if they're MDC.

The electrical parts are subject to many things, of which include thermal warping / loosening of chips and degradation of contact points.

For all we know, TW magical parts are also subject to many things.

Never seen a Glittermount, Wingboard, or hoverbike diagrammed out, and I don't know how any of them work, so I can't say one way or the other.

Then read the descriptions of them – not that hard to figure out

You thought the same thing about the Flaming Sword, and I disagree.