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I don't know if Phalanx included it on not in his Pax Atlantea stuff, but if you are going to have Steampunk space travel you HAVE to have space filled with Æther and have ships that make use of that for their travel.


Daniel Stoker

kal wrote:@ DS Why does steampunk spaceships HAVE to have the Ether?

technically they don't, though good luck reaching the required thrust to weight ratios to reach orbit, much less deep space.

the use of aether for steampunk type settings is usually more tradition. you see, some of the first "steam punk" was the "scientific romances' of Jules Verne, H.G. Wells, and the like. back then we didn't have the theory or reletativity, or any of those other nifty physics things we do now.

the popular belief of most people was that there was this substance called aether, which filled the universe and through which light propogated (much like sound through air). so the idea of space travel was one of ships "sailing through the aether", usually with systems similar to sails or propellors for propulsion.

there was a whole series of russian "scientific romances" using this premise, IIRC.

it was so prevelant of the novels of the time, and the other contents so similar in precepts to what we now call steampunk, that to make a steampunk setting (which is usually a victorian period setting with modern tech using victorian scientific principles, including aether) you pretty much have to include mention of it.

if your a steampunk fan, check out Girl Genius, lots of steam punk, mad science, and parodies thereof.

Steam punk universe would be an interesting alternate universe.

From some of the previous post were trying to convince him to set it up around the Jules Verne time. That makes a lot of sense. Although it would be up to the author.

My vote would be that fleshing out the Nuhr home dimension would be a great way to go. Already mentioned as having the right tech level and otherwise a seeming blank slate, with some link to Rifts Earth.

On SDC vs MDC for steampunk, I'd lean strongly toward an SDC universe. Fits the theme better, and you can have your swashbucklers and lightly armored folk. Also, it'd be nice to have a dimension folk from SDC worlds can visit without upgrading. Enchanted SDC steamtech would still be formidable MDC items when brought to worlds like Rifts Earth.

As far as worrying about space steampunk, leave that to the Dwarven Guildmasters of 3G for the most part. It might be interesting to have people dabble in, but there's should be more than enough material on the ground and in the air.. and in/on the water.. and digging underground..

The Secret Adventures of Jules Verne was a fun show for steamtech, as are most of the sources it borrowed from.

Would recommend the Megaversal Builder for ideas on setting up a dimension. Would be leaning toward a round world (how else would people be able to travel around it in brave new ways?), and possibly an awkward dimensional energy matrix to encourage steampunk-style tech and discourage imports.

kal wrote:Well some research continues in spite of university doing its best to get in the way

i know the feeling, i'm writing a new setting myself and everytime i get in the mood to write, i end up with a test or book review to do instead.

I dont have the Megaversal Builder, but I will ask my old flat mate if he has his copy in the city. As to the Nuhr I still have no idea where they are, I leaved through Phase World (DB 2) but didnt find em, I have to go through Pase world sourceboook (DM 3)....

check out Rifts Sourcebook 4, or D-Bee's of North America (which has full stats).

they use a "watered down form of rune magic" (read: futhark runes and no trapping of souls), and the group in north america are a pirate crew operating off an ironclad. not exactly steampunk, but they'd make a nifty addition.

what era would it be set in. steam punk romans seem really cool

traditionally steampunk is a victorian era setting, the start of the industrial revolution and when steam was dominating modes of travel like railways, ships, and even horseless carriages.

but if your creating a new world, and not setting it on earth, you can use whatever historical themes you like, in any combination you like.

kal wrote:I think, in my head ast least, I'm imgaining it either classic (Victiorian era), more pulpish (air ships, zepplins, steampowered aircraft - [no diea how, but it will work!]) or prehaps even more modern, but just with steam power and mechanics instead of electronics....not sure yet.....

Kal

Steam Aircraft
most of these didn't work because of the high weight of steam engines of the time, but they give you a good place to start.

plus, steam doesn't have to be the power for flying machines. electricity and internal combustion were both making an apperance in the historical victorian age, and it was assumed that those would make the conquest of the air possible. they just had different ideas on how (generally lighter than air ships were seen as the future, balloons and blimps, latter zepplins)

plus if your using a non-earth setting, you can invent solutions to steam power's problems. for example, the big problem with steam is that you need to carry lots of wood or coal to fuel the furnaces, which tend to be heavy. the steam engine itself can be made fairly light, but the main issue of fuel makes it heavy. which is why most "steam airships" assumed oil fired steam plants, since oil is fairly light.

but if you invent a material that generates heat from some other process, you might be able to avoid that issue.

As for back frop and theme fullmetal alchemist immediately came to mind
I'd really think the full metal alchemist sereies especailly the final few epidsodes and movies would give a good vibe to this idea. It has zepleins and that post victorian still age of discovery not yet world war vibe to the real earth

Its a anime that followed up with a movie. Watch the movie and I gurantee you it will provide you with inspirtion for what your looking for. You can find it on the web. The series towards the end works but the movie sums up the theme of the whole series quite succinetly

I'm not talking about the alchemy aspect of the anime/movie. I'm talking about the setting and vibe.

I actually would look at the pre World War 1 earth setting that is in the movie and the end of the series for a setting base. It has that feeling of discovery undettered by war that seems like it would fit in to the world you are creating. The other world leadership could be used as a anithies to the that. I'm just proposing this as a base.

[quote="glitterboy2098"][quote="kal"]

the popular belief of most people was that there was this substance called aether, which filled the universe and through which light propogated (much like sound through air). so the idea of space travel was one of ships "sailing through the aether", usually with systems similar to sails or propellors for propulsion.
http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2000/ast28jun_1m.htm
taken from NASA
Actually there is valid science for at the least inter stellar solor sail tecnology being developed by NASA

It is now widely recognized that sunlight does indeed produce a force which moves comet tails and a large, reflective sail could be a practical means of propelling a spacecraft

Nearly half a kilometer wide, the Interstellar Probe's delicate solar sail would be unfurled in space. Continuous pressure from sunlight would ultimately accelerate the craft to speeds about five times higher than possible with conventional rockets -- without requiring any fuel! Zooming toward the stars at 90 km per second, it could cover the distance from New York to Los Angeles in less than a minute. That’s more than 10 times faster than the Space Shuttle’s on-orbit speed of 8 km per second. An interstellar probe launched in 2010 would pass the Voyager 1 spacecraft, the most distant spacecraft bound for interstellar space, in 2018 going as far in eight years as Voyager will have journeyed in 41 years.





Now by reading that you'll notice that interstellar travel would be infeasiable due to time constartints and the accuaracy of the laser however intersolar travel could be accomplished in months using solar sail technology.

Phalanx wrote:In a steampunk IRC game I've played in, I proposed the use of the reaction between silver and hydrogen peroxide with an alchemical catalyst. It's being used IRL (with a proprietary, secret catalyst) to power a new generation of artificial limbs.

your right. i remember now i was planning something similar for one of the groups i was writing once. Peroxide turns into 02 and steam when exposed to a catalyst (often silver, though other elements might work better), which would make a nifty source for light wieght steampower.

i remember i was plannign to use peroxide fueled steam turbines to generate power for vehicles, like in several space novels i read once. IIRC, the idea was actually looked into for submarines before being dropped when the desiel-electric set up proved more efficent, and currently is making a comeback as a monofuel rocket for things like supercavitating torpedoes.

glitterboy2098 wrote:
the popular belief of most people was that there was this substance called aether, which filled the universe and through which light propogated (much like sound through air). so the idea of space travel was one of ships "sailing through the aether", usually with systems similar to sails or propellors for propulsion.

http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2000/ast28jun_1m.htm
taken from NASA
Actually there is valid science for at the least inter stellar solor sail tecnology being developed by NASA

It is now widely recognized that sunlight does indeed produce a force which moves comet tails and a large, reflective sail could be a practical means of propelling a spacecraft

not similar at all. the sails in the old days of the aether were to catch "aetheric winds" or currents much like sailing ships catch atmospheric winds.

a light sail works differently, and the physics of aether would have precluded their working at all.

for a setting like the one kal has in mind, you'd want to set up aether as something unrelated to light or the nature of space, more like trek's subspace. an underlying energy/substance which can be tapped for energy, used to propell ships, or travelled through for teleportation or invisibility.

not similar at all. the sails in the old days of the aether were to catch "aetheric winds" or currents much like sailing ships catch atmospheric winds.

a light sail works differently, and the physics of aether would have precluded their working at all.

for a setting like the one kal has in mind, you'd want to set up aether as something unrelated to light or the nature of space, more like trek's subspace. an underlying energy/substance which can be tapped for energy, used to propell ships, or travelled through for teleportation or invisibility.[/quote]

I understand the difference and that the aether would casue to much friction to travel by sunlight just as it could not be done on eearth due to the air I just meant they are siilar in that people are sailing through space so he need not abandon the real laws of phyics to get his sail ships

kal wrote:I beginning to think that the dimension would probably not have anything to do with space flight - it makes it easier, plus the world becomes more self contained and I dont have to 'stretch' the laws of physics too much, which hopefully will make the dimension more compatible with other PB publications.


One thing I've also come up with today - classic steampunk/victorian ear sees advanced steam tech socities exploring and conquering more primative socities/nations/contenients etc - I was thinking of turning that on its head and have the steampunk socitey under attack by an outside force (maybe Xitic).....any thoughts?

Kal

See, I can understand that, but I also like to throw in things like 'Martian Tripods' and the like and Space/Æther travel makes it easier, especially if you're looking at having them be attacked by an outside force.


Daniel Stoker

kal wrote:Having external 'spaceships' attack is something I definity would NOT want to EXCLUDE - however, having the steampunk socitey unable to explore where their enemy is coming from is also cool I think - having gained mastery of their own world, having some unknown come and prove to be more powerful would be quite a shock and add to the punk part of steampunk with the desperation, the slaughter, the hard fought resistance......that sort of thing.....

Kal

Ahhh, gotcha. That works too, I just like the thought of your hero-scientist being able to make his Æther ship so they can try and stop the invasion or take out the moon base type of thing even if the society as a whole doesn't have access to the technology still. Sorta like Nemo with his submarine.


Daniel Stoker

Babbage Engines for the computer end of it...
Don't forget to look at the many pre-petrol-internal combustion steam cars...many of which made speed records in their time and were quite efficient...

That is very true Taalismn. Those are some very interesting ideas about steam punk. I hadn't heard of the babbage engine Taalismn! I looked it up and read about it! Thank you!

Take a look at this book for a different take on steampunk.
Refuge (Outlanders) by James Axler
http://www.amazon.com/Refuge-Outlanders ... 742&sr=1-1
Used book stores should have a copy or two in stock.

I've seen those novels at the regular bookstore. They are "Steam Punk"? I didn't realise that. I'm going to have to read the back of them next time.

you may want to consider adding more themes than just steampunk and scientific romances.

this seems like a good place to put things like the indiana jones adventure themes, and gaslight romances (which are essentually the "supernatural stories" of the same peroid as the scientific romances, examples including Dracula, Frankenstien, jeklye and hyde, sherlock holmes, even Tarzan), even things like the Cthuluian investigation themes.

you could have lost civilizations (and all the wierd 'mechanology' and or magic and or hybrid devices such entails), powers beyond mankinds understanding slumbering in lost locations, soldiers of light and armies of darkness, mad scientists and their creations living or mechanical all the above, whole parts of the world marked "unknown" or "here be dragons", "lost worlds" filled with dinosaurs and mammoths and other prehistoric creatures...

Aramanthus wrote:I've seen those novels at the regular bookstore. They are "Steam Punk"? I didn't realise that. I'm going to have to read the back of them next time.

Just that one. It's another earth that loss the ability to produce electric and even has a form of Babbage Engine in it. Read the 2nd reveiw on Amazon for some info.

tell me about the leigion. How is the tech different than the era you are using as a base.

For me, the Steampunk setting that seems to align with the Palladium universe the best would be something similar to that of the movie "Howl's Moving Castle". It's magic-infused Steampunk, but I think the setting really works. Basically you have the classic imperialistic Napoleonic/Victorian era. I imagine a world of a similar magic level to Palladium Fantasy, only the world's technological development slowed/stopped during the beginnings of the Industrial Revolution rather than during the Dark Ages.

I think that if you move it, as you've suggested, to the era after the Great War (aka WWI) then you have a prime time for advanced Steampunk (including space exploration). This is the era on our Earth when V2 rockets and nuclear power come into being. You also still have zeppelins, basic internal combustion engines, and steam locomotives in large use.

Well ,thats about it for this post, sorry it was so long, but I thought I'd try and get some feedback on the initial ideas - I know its a bit funny when 'designing' a technology world to start with magic, but i think its given me a good place to start.

I havent decided yet on the worlds nations, armies etc etc, but I think it may be one giant Empire, with lots of small isolated wildernesses about for random primitive etc etc.

if your using a pulp adventure style setting, you'll want several large nations, to open up more play options. think 1920's-30's earth, \you had the Us, Britain, france, a reconstructing germany, imperial japan...
part of what makes adventure stories set in the time fun is the political subtones of the national interaction. an adventure set in china, for example, usually has situations effected by the japanese, as well as colonialism ties from the US and England. exploration stories are more fun when there is a team financed by another country racing against you to reach the destination, be it a flag planting mission into the unknown or trying to find some ancient civilization.


if you want steam tech to be dominant, you might want to look at using older technologies elsewhere. gaslighting or arclighting instead of incadescant lamps, for example, horse drawn carriages and the occasional steam carriage instead of internal combustion automobiles.

armies could wear the colorful uniforms of the late napoleonic era, but armed with repeating rifles, gatling weapons (machineguns) and backed up by steam landships in a WW1 or WW2 military paradigm.


you might want to translate the arms race of the 30's-40's into steampunk terms. if planes, landships, and so on are made using steamtech, the electric motor or internal combustion engine would serve to fill the same "supertech" roles as the jet engine, ballistic rockets, and the like from the 30's-40's.

a steam powered biplane encountering a ICE powered plane would be like a WW2 mustang encountering a ME-262. electrical motors make submarines a viable combat unit, making the battleship heavy fleets vulnerable, but making aircraft like aerostats, aeronefs, and aeroplanes (or the "supertech" zepplins) that much more valuable as spotters and anti-sub units, thus making dedicated carriers more useful.

Very interesting ideas in your entry above! I'm looking forward to seeing where you take it!

ash_wednesday wrote:

glitterboy2098 wrote:if your a steampunk fan, check out Girl Genius, lots of steam punk, mad science, and parodies thereof.

I was thinking that PB should get the rights to make a RPG game out of this web comic. That would be cool. Awsome comic BTW.

Steve Jackson Games already have it IIRC, using the GURPS system..

Interesting! Thank you for the update GB!

glitterboy2098 wrote:

ash_wednesday wrote:

glitterboy2098 wrote:if your a steampunk fan, check out Girl Genius, lots of steam punk, mad science, and parodies thereof.

I was thinking that PB should get the rights to make a RPG game out of this web comic. That would be cool. Awsome comic BTW.

Steve Jackson Games already have it IIRC, using the GURPS system..

They have the RPG rights, but their Girl Genius book is apparently being written on a Palladium schedule (ie it hasn't been finished for a few years now and I wouldn't hold my breath if I were you ). Although you can see a bit of Agatha in RPG form in GURPS Illuminati University, which happened to be illustrated by the Foglios.

Oh and while we're on steampunkish things, I'd thoroughly recommend China Mieville's three "Bas-Lag" novels (Perdido Street Station, The Scar, Iron Council), as an example of fantasy steampunk done awesomely. Bas-Lag is basically a darkly surreal fantasy world that's kinda similar to the setting for Lovecraft's Dream Cycle stories (y'know, the ones with Nyarlathotep and a bizarre fantasy world full of strange ancient civilizations and priesthoods), only with oodles of codified flavours of magic, industrial revolution era technology, and new and bizarre mixes of magic and technology.

You also might wanna read some historical fiction (particularly the more adventurey swashbuckly stuff) set anywhere from the late middle ages to the late industrial revolution. If ther's swashbuckling involved and there's an author who did his research on board, at the very least you'll get an idea of various cannon, musket, and ship-based schticks (eg how the work, the basics of maintenance, exciting things that can go wrong) that can be worked into the game. And if it's set from the late 1700s onwards, there'll usually be at least a token appearance by steam engines, mass production, steel foundries, new science, balloons, and/or rifles.

Thank you for the tip on the novels, Rallan. I've heard of her, but never read her material. I'll have to try them someday.

Aramanthus wrote:Thank you for the tip on the novels, Rallan. I've heard of her, but never read her material. I'll have to try them someday.

His actually, and he looks mean enough to get physical if you call him a girl in person

Oh and China Mieville's not to everyone's tastes. His endings are sometimes downers or ambiguous, and he likes flawed, unheroic, unsympathetic protagonists. Folks who didn't like Stephen Donaldson because he was depressing and his characters were unsympathetic might want to pass on China Mieville's stuff (folks who just didn't like Donaldson because he was slow and boring should just stop reading the Chronicles of Thomas Covanent and move on to Donaldson's explosion-and-action-filled "Gap" series instead ).

Opps. I thought with a name like China it would be a woman. Please forgive my mistake. I'll have to check them out more thoroughly!

Viking wrote:I have been doing some work of this type myself, centered on Queenston Harbor. "Mystic-Steam" propulsion: Airships, Tanks, Ironclads, etc...combining Colonial/Victorian-Romance, "Primitivism", Steam-Punk, Techno-Wizardry, Techno-Shifting, and certain Pulp-Adventure themes. A new whole new Steam-Punk "world" to visit would be SWEET!

actually, i've been using more and more steampunkish themes for the Colorado Baronies. they already put out TW western stuff, adding elements of "wild wild west" isn't much of a stretch. plus i worked in other steampunk elements, like airships (zepplin-style).
right now i'm trying to think of a suitably steampunkish heavier than air craft style so they can start making their own TW planes. using Stormspire built TW P-51 Mustangs is so cross-genra.


Queenston seems to me to a more classical 1600's style setting. more into accurately duplicating the asthetics of the 1600's than taking the asthetics of the 1700's and 1800's and applying them to modern concepts.

Cool update! Just one question GB...... Are those steampuck devices are TW in your game?

Aramanthus wrote:Cool update! Just one question GB...... Are those steampuck devices are TW in your game?

mostly. some are hybrids between convnetional tech and TW. like the airships. they use hydrogen for lift and MDC materials for construction, but TW engines, weapons, and defenses, including big PPE batteries to let them operate off leylines.

Sounds cool! When can we expect to see some stats? I know there is going to be a lot of people interested in seeing those!

Aramanthus wrote:Sounds cool! When can we expect to see some stats? I know there is going to be a lot of people interested in seeing those!

probably not for a couple of weeks. finals are next week, and after that i'll be relocating to my parent's place for the summer, with a stop-over at my grandparent's place. i'll see what i can do about stats during the process, but no promises anytime soon.

i'll see what i can do about getting a discussions thread going about my current vision of the Colorado Baronies before then though.

Study hard and good luck on those finals GB! We'll be here waiting until those other priorities are done for the stats!

any update from either of you two

nothing much. the steampunk stuff i was working on is shelved at the moment, i've actually been doing more writing and rewriting for my secret project. most of the hardware is now pretty close to where i want it, i just need to type it up and then rewrite the fluff parts to match the updated and revised history and stuff i've developed.

Sounds very interesting GB! A secret project? That sounds very intriguing! I know we are all waiting get our copies of your work!

Just do those projects the right way.

I do????? I just want the project to look good and to be as good as the person can get it.

I'm not. Although I have many friends and relatives who are with various law enforcement agencies. I can wait patiently!

I just watched mutant chronicles it came out last week on veoh its a very good example of a sci fi steam punk movie'

Wait a second. It came out? In what format? (Mutant chronicles) Please forgive me, I was shocked by it sneaking out.