Post-Space Station LIberty Capital Ships

[taalismn]

Gotta wonder with the revelations of the Battle of Liberty Station, what the status of remaining Shadow-Device-equipped ships will be....Such as any surviving Shadow Garfish, light cruisers, and the SDF-5 Liberator...Given that most of the REF fleet went up at Liberty, the Moon Base and surviving units will be hard up for additional ships, so simply mothballing the SD-ships as 'suspect' isn't a great option...And we see the Ark Angel leaving Liberty escorted by the Icarus(presumably with a skeleton crew or in tow)...but resources aren't great for full-out R&D and refits....

So, what do you think? Will the REF keep these ships in service, but with the SD equipment gutted and jettisoned into space, with the volume simply dead weight, keep the systems, but physically disconnected while the eggheads try to figure out a way around the problem and salvage the systems, or big budget and kludge up new systems(like refitting the Icarus to the old missile boat configuration, and shoehorn in some old Zentraedi-style co-axial lasers into the SDF-5?) until something better becomes available?

[taalismn]

My gut says that the UEF isn't as hard-up on ship capacity as we'd like to think. While Liberty does have shipyard capacity, it'd be extremely stupid to put all your eggs in one basket. That and Prelude does have the Karbarrans in it, so it wouldn't be a stretch for the Robotech forces to start relying more heavily on them instead of Liberty if liberty was the only UEF shipyard.

As for using available ships, I do agree that it would be logistically unwise for them to just scrap their entire fleet. However, just leaving the equipment in place seems silly to me. I'm more in favor of the UEF utilizing refits. It should be doable if all they have left is the moon base (which I doubt).

Problem is, the Haydonites likely have the Karbarrean facilities mapped down to who's going to be in which onsite bathroom at whatever time....

The REF still definitely has the Moon Base....Gunther Reinhardt's using it as his base of operations, making it the bastion of defense for Earth(barring any command/control facilities at the Mars/Jupiter System colonies, if any). It also makes for more high epic drama....the forward elements of the REF cut off by the Haydonites and a forward base complex that becomes their new base of operations...

I didn't see the SDF-5 at Liberty, and it wouldn't make sense for Reinhardt to send away his flagship, so I'm assuming it's at ALUCE, adjacent to his office. It's still in play. then...

Which makes for the fun possibility of the SDF-3 Pioneer, SDF-5 Liberator, and SDF-6 ArkAngel one day flying in formation...Of course, the storyline is likely to blast the SDF-5 apart in the defense of Earth...

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

They still have a few surviving Tristars and probably other Heavy Cruisers and Destroyers from the 2nd Robotech War. Presumably, none had been upgraded to the new weapon systems just yet.

[glitterboy2098]

the big issue of course will be PC supply. they only have a year or so's worth without the matrix on the SDF-3. (presumably it would take more than a year to build a new matrix)

i'll also presume that if non-PC power sources are feasible (straight fusion for example), it would take more than a year to refit enough ships to use them.

so the REF will need to conserve as best it can. bringing pre-shadowtech ships out of mothballs might help there, assuming they can transfer the PC from the Shadowtech ships to the others at a decent rate, and that the older ships aren't less 'fuel efficent' as the newer ships.

[Colonel Wolfe]

the big issue of course will be PC supply. they only have a year or so's worth without the matrix on the SDF-3. (presumably it would take more than a year to build a new matrix)

its kinda why blowing up liberty was a bad idea... all the logistical ability of the station was lost... along with an PC stored there...

[taalismn]

the big issue of course will be PC supply. they only have a year or so's worth without the matrix on the SDF-3. (presumably it would take more than a year to build a new matrix)

its kinda why blowing up liberty was a bad idea... all the logistical ability of the station was lost... along with an PC stored there...

Yeah...and admittedly, by Ariel's word, the Children of Shadows were there to destroy the station, so the REF blows it up themselves?

Then again, the bulk of their fighting force had been just wiped out, being dependent on the Shadowtech....presumably, Grant figured that the remaining personnel couldn't mount an effective defence before the Haydonites brought up reinforcements and either destroyed or captured the complex(Grant also appears not to have a great deal of faith in any defenses built into Liberty...either the REF foolishly stripped the original Factory Satellite configuration of its armaments, or they were never there to begin with)....Also, he may have also figured the station couldn't engage its own Fold Drives in time to avoid being taken over/destroyed...Figuring that the Haydonites would be dumb enough to close close enough to Liberty to be caught in the implosion of the Neutron-S missiles was risky, if the Haydonites had been there to destroy Liberty(they could have stood off and used their own long range fire to bombard the station to pieces)...

But such is the fog of war....

So now it's back to fighting by the seat of one's pants, with the temporary 'vacation' of using Shadowtech effectively over...

Of course, the Haydonites may have additional tricks..such as starship armor that is more resistant to the older model weaponry the REF is likley to bring out of mothballs...they definitely have shields...
Reinhardt may just want to have big honkin' massdrivers placed in place of that SynchroCannon, or several older model Reflex Cannon, on the Liberator..

[Aramanthus]

Then I suppose we'll each have to our best to get that PC matrix back asap in the game!

[Protoculture]

They still have a few surviving Tristars and probably other Heavy Cruisers and Destroyers from the 2nd Robotech War. Presumably, none had been upgraded to the new weapon systems just yet.

Yes, the PTTSC shows atleast 1 Tristar lifting from Tyrol (a brief insert). There are many reasons to believe that surviving Tristars & even a few Tokugawas under UEEF possession are being retrofitted with new hull & technology advancement to make it current to New-Gen Garfishes & Ikazuchis. This is evident with the retrofitted Tokugawa that undergone major facelift (it looks more MOSPEADA-ish) in PTTSC.

[Protoculture]

Gotta wonder with the revelations of the Battle of Liberty Station, what the status of remaining Shadow-Device-equipped ships will be....Such as any surviving Shadow Garfish, light cruisers, and the SDF-5 Liberator...Given that most of the REF fleet went up at Liberty, the Moon Base and surviving units will be hard up for additional ships, so simply mothballing the SD-ships as 'suspect' isn't a great option...And we see the Ark Angel leaving Liberty escorted by the Icarus(presumably with a skeleton crew or in tow)...but resources aren't great for full-out R&D and refits....

The UEEF should start to crank the older but venerable Tristars out from the reserves, & retrofit 'em with 2040s Robotechnology (sans Shadow Tech).

Surviving NewGen older Garfishes & Ikazuchis (pre-Shadow Tech) that anchored in colony worlds & deep space bases are already the core of the UEEF by this time.

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

..either the REF foolishly stripped the original Factory Satellite configuration of its armaments, or they were never there to begin with

We know Liberty was armed because it held out against the Robotech Masters. Else their attack forces would have blown it to smithereens or, more likely, they would have captured it for themselves to use. The only remaining logical answer is that the REF gutted the station's weaponry after the fall of the UEF in the 3rd Robotech War.

The Haydonites level of technology isn't that much higher than that of the Zentraedi/post-Macross UEF. It was their ability to override the Synchro-Cannons more than anything else that gave them victory over the REF fleet at Liberty.

[taalismn]

I don't recall seeing any Haydonite capital vessels get kakked by REF return fire...I do recall seeing barrier systems at work, so either I missed something, or the Haydonites have SOME advantage besides their Trojan Horse...
The enemy vessel that rammed the SDF-3, however, did get shot up some, and we can safely assume it didn't survive the encounter...

[AuroraKet]

Yeah...and admittedly, by Ariel's word, the Children of Shadows were there to destroy the station, so the REF blows it up themselves?

She just said that "a space station will be destroyed", not that the Children of the Shadow blew it up.

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

The enemy vessel that rammed the SDF-3, however, did get shot up some, and we can safely assume it didn't survive the encounter...

Haydonite cruiser ramming the SDF-03

Haydonite ship blowing up

Low powered anti-ship missiles of the Icarus

Personally, I'll take a Tristar that mounts the decidedly more powerful Skylord missiles....

Skylord detonation

Edit: Fixed pic showing Haydonite cruiser length.

[Aramanthus]

Nice pics! Thank you for sharing them RSCF!

I think the REF is going to have to do a crash job on retrofitting their ships with something other than shadow tech ASAP. And to think we lost Exedore on the Garfish in that pic from The Shadow Chronicles! That really stunk!

[taalismn]

The enemy vessel that rammed the SDF-3, however, did get shot up some, and we can safely assume it didn't survive the encounter...

Haydonite cruiser ramming the SDF-03

Haydonite ship blowing up

Low powered anti-ship missiles of the Icarus

Personally, I'll take a Tristar that mounts the decidedly more powerful Skylord missiles....


Skylord detonation

Nulceonic Zentraedi ship-killers; gotta love him...problem is, you gotta get them to the target first...though if you throw enough energy weapon interference at the massed Haydonite formations, they might not notice the SLBM-sized missiles coming up on 'em...

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

Nulceonic Zentraedi ship-killers

Oh yea. The thing about the Skylords are they would cripple even the larger cruisers, all the way up to the Nupetiet-Vernigtzs Command Cruiser that Breetai had. Unlike what was done to the Masters' City-ship, it would punch through the hull and the leaked atmosphere would add to the fireball. If it was struck amidships, it would likely be blown in half.

[NMI]

The enemy vessel that rammed the SDF-3, however, did get shot up some, and we can safely assume it didn't survive the encounter...

Haydonite cruiser ramming the SDF-03

The width listed for the Haydonite cruiser should actually be its length. Otherwise it is kind of misleading.

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

The width listed for the Haydonite cruiser should actually be its length. Otherwise it is kind of misleading.

Ah geez, I just caught that. @#&$!

[taalismn]

Does it make any difference? The Haydonite cruiser's apparently STILL coming out the worse for the deal...

Well, at least we know now that they're not averse to suicide tactics(unless they figured they'd SURVIVE the ramming attack)...

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

Does it make any difference? The Haydonite cruiser's apparently STILL coming out the worse for the deal...

Which leads me to believe they are not structurally that strong. Consider that the UES Tristar rammed two different City-ships during the 2nd Robotech War (and we can guesstimate that the Tirolian vessels have significantly denser hull plates than either the Zentraedi or Haydonites) and yet it was only Emerson's detonation of her reflex furnaces that blew her up. I don't think the Haydonites would have fared all that well against the 2029 UEF, Shadowtech or no.

[taalismn]

Does it make any difference? The Haydonite cruiser's apparently STILL coming out the worse for the deal...

Which leads me to believe they are not structurally that strong. Consider that the UES Tristar rammed two different City-ships during the 2nd Robotech War (and we can guesstimate that the Tirolian vessels have significantly denser hull plates than either the Zentraedi or Haydonites) and yet it was only Emerson's detonation of her reflex furnaces that blew her up. I don't think the Haydonites would have fared all that well against the 2029 UEF, Shadowtech or no.

"Why can't we face an alien threat that can be stopped with bullets?"
...Well, looks like UNIT is in the wrong universe...

[Aramanthus]

I suppose we could equip the world with a version of Torchwood. That might stop them flatfooted!

[Aramanthus]

I have thought along a similiar lines while comparing modern warships and those of the past.

[taalismn]

So the Haydonites are building battlecruisers, big on guns, stealth, and speed, while the REF is building armored cruisers and battleships...and still applying the lessons of the previous Robotech wars about mecha-swarm tactics...

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

So the Haydonites are building battlecruisers, big on guns, stealth, and speed, while the REF is building armored cruisers and battleships...and still applying the lessons of the previous Robotech wars about mecha-swarm tactics...

Not really. Until they got upgraded for Shadow Chronicles, the Ikazuchi was basically an oversized troop ship and/or carrier. It only had those 8 upper deck guns. Unlike the UEF ships in the 2nd Robotech War, the REF models used during the 3rd Robotech War lacked point-defense weaponry. Its almost like they expected to go toe-to-toe with bigger ships. Almost the exact opposite lesson of the 2nd Robotech War, which was you have to have both anti-ship missiles and guns as well as mecha (and a healthy dose of luck).

In all honesty, I don't see why the ships we see in the 3rd Robotech War (Ikazuchi, IZUM, Garfish and Horizon) weren't all built during the Pioneer Mission buildup phase circa 2014-2022. They would certainly have needed armed troop ships and it seems wasteful to relegate your Nelson-class Destroyers, Ardennes-class Heavy Cruisers and Tristar-class Cruiser Leaders to troop berth duty. We know from both Shadow Chronicles and The Sentinels Script Book #2 that the Ikazuchi's can land on a planetary surface. Those massive doors at the front and sides are perfect to make it a massive roll on/roll off platform. The IZUM is basically a smaller version of the Ikazuchi, no reason for it not to land as well.

[taalismn]

hmmmm.....The IZUM, curiously enough, looks like the oft-discussed free-space-flying 'red-hulled' Daedalus-derivative seen docking with the SDF-1 during the Macross arc, and the cause of so much hair-pulling among fan analysts...

I believe you've inadvertantly provided a 'smoking gun' and coincidental connection between those earlier blurred Macross-Era images and the MOSPEADA/Invid Invasion Era, Rabid...

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

hmmmm.....The IZUM, curiously enough, looks like the oft-discussed free-space-flying 'red-hulled' Daedalus-derivative seen docking with the SDF-1 during the Macross arc, and the cause of so much hair-pulling among fan analysts...

Very likely its where the Mospeada mechanical designers got the idea. It would also basically do the same job, as in being a landing craft that would deploy mecha, soldiers and supplies to the battlefield.

[Aramanthus]

I agree that the forces of the REF was not equiped with enough anti-fighter weapons. They should have been equiped like the US WW2 capitol ships. They were well equipped to deal with small craft!

[taalismn]

Look...look at some of the WW2 aircraft carriers...the Shinano carried upwards of a hundred machine guns for AAA work, plus heavy guns and rocket launchers(of course, she got torpedoed and sank because some idiot decided to take her to another port to finish refitting, and she put out to sea without her watertight doors being all fitted...The Shinano promptly got spotted by a USN sub, which gave her four fish in the guts...).

[tgunner91]

Before you go too far into this you need to remember that all of these 'ships' were designed for different shows. The 'Tristar' and the other Southern Cross ships were for that show and so on. Carl's 'cut and paste' job does bring these things together but what you have are pieces from two different puzzles being slapped together to make a whole new puzzle. So of course some of the parts just won't fit!

Now the Shadow Chronicles are different. This is a Robotech show, and in fact it is the only true Robotech show. Why do I say this? This movie was put together from top to bottom to be Robotech and just Robotech.

Now what I saw from watching the Shadow Chronicles was a pretty clear doctrine for dealing with the main enemy: the Invid. So the United Earth Expeditionary Force (UEEF) fleet units were organized and equipped to fight the Invid. So why so little AAA?

Here is what saw:

The UEEF fleet could be split into a couple of parts: the VT screen, carriers and capital ships, and the command/reserve element.

During the opening to the Reflex Point battle the UEEF fleet deployed into very obvious squardrons (an Ikazuchi carrier with a small group of Garfish frigates) which launched swarms of mecha. Mixed in this formation and to the rear were the big command ships with the huge SDF like cannons.

When the Invid rose from the Earth the UEEF fleet engaged them with the long range cannons which destroyed dozens of Invid transports. Once the Invid started deploying mecha the VT screens swarmed in to attack. The results of this assault were mixed. The UEEF destroyed vast swarms of Invid, but just not enough of them. The UEEF simply underestimated the sheer numbers that the Invid could bring to battle.

So based off of this I see this doctrine: long range bombardment followed up by and assault launched by hard hitting, close combat units (VTs). The UEEF had the advantage in long range firepower (something that the Invid completely ignore) and they mass built VTs that could easily handle small swarms of Invid (say 5-10 at a time).

So, the UEEF would stand-off and attrit Invid swarms starting with capital ship main guns to destroy Invid mecha while they are still in their carriers. Once the Invid deploy mecha the UEEF would send in their vastly superior VTs who would also start with a stand-off bombardment (missiles this time) and who then close in to finish off the Invid survivors in close combat. Not a bad doctrine really- attrit with stand-off capability and then go to close combat to finish off a depleted enemy.

The problem with this doctrine is simple: the Invid were just much more numerous than the UEEF thought. I imagine that the UEEF anticipated that they would face a force numbered in the thousands and tens of thousands when they actually faced a foe who numbered in the hundreds of thousands. This scenario makes me think about a classic Starship Troopers quote:

"BUGS MR. RICO, ZILLIONS OF "EM!!!"

So what does this have to do with ships and AAA? Doctrine dictates tactics and equipment. UEEF views ships as having two missions: long range support and as carriers. I don't get the impression that the UEEF ships were intended to get up close and personal with enemy mecha. Afterall, that is why they carry all of those VTs! UEEF ships appear to focus on carrying maximum numbers of mecha (get a load of the sponson mounted mecha bays on the Ikazuchi carriers! Dozens of Alphas in battloid mode crammed in shoulder to shoulder) and heavy weapons for long range bombardment.

If that is the doctrine then why cram on extra weapons that the ship 'doesn't' need? The UEEF lives in a universe of limited resources and they have to maximize the assets that they do have. The UEEF ship designers/doctrine writers probably viewed heavy AAA screens as redundant and a waste of equipment, energy (these extra mounts need power and this would be drained from the ship's reactors), and possibly personnel.

As in real war, hind-sight is 20/20! If the UEEF realised that they were so badly outnumbered by the Invid then they might have built ships with heavy AAA batteries. Will they upgrade to more guns? Depends on the resources they have and who their foes are. If we're talking about the Haydonites then who knows. I didn't get the impression that the Haydonites have a huge fleet. They DO have a powerful fleet that uses a very conventional array of warships/carriers and mecha. They relied on a lot of 'dirty tricks' in their encounters with UEEF forces and I didn't get the impression that they were vastly superior to the UEEF in firepower and technology.

I guess we will get more answers in the sequel!

[taalismn]

We certainly will...and thanks for pointing out that the Shadow Chronicles are the first wholly Robotech...designed from the keel up for that purpose...

Of course, I don't expect any diminishment in the armchair generaling on Robotech military doctrine, but some of the spinoffs from that(I'm still rather delighted with Rabid's 'discovery' of the 'IZUM'.....the more ship classes available for both official and fan scrutiny/write up, the better, IMHO)...

[tgunner91]

We certainly will...and thanks for pointing out that the Shadow Chronicles are the first wholly Robotech...designed from the keel up for that purpose...

Of course, I don't expect any diminishment in the armchair generaling on Robotech military doctrine, but some of the spinoffs from that(I'm still rather delighted with Rabid's 'discovery' of the 'IZUM'.....the more ship classes available for both official and fan scrutiny/write up, the better, IMHO)...

I know. And the chance to become armchair generals is part of the fun. Granted though- this IS a VIDEO and a SCI-FI VIDEO at that!

These kinds of dicussions are useful to gamers though. These are attempts to make things on the show make 'sense' so that we can better supend our disbelief and make our gamming experience more enjoyable.

So IMO speculate away!

[tgunner91]

Look...look at some of the WW2 aircraft carriers...the Shinano carried upwards of a hundred machine guns for AAA work, plus heavy guns and rocket launchers(of course, she got torpedoed and sank because some idiot decided to take her to another port to finish refitting, and she put out to sea without her watertight doors being all fitted...The Shinano promptly got spotted by a USN sub, which gave her four fish in the guts...).

Designers always seem to forget something, don't they??? What looks good on paper in an office sometimes just doesn't pull through when bullets and torps start flying.

The old graveyard joke we Army types toss around come to mind: Our equippment comes from the lowest bidder!!

"Hey Shin! I found out how we can underbid Toyota! We will just build the Shinano without water tight doors! We will save weeks of construction time (labor$$) and thousands of tons of steel! That will give us a competitive advantage in the bidding process AND we will be heros because we will get her to sea six months early!"

"I don't know about that Amuro. What will happen if the Shinano gets hit by US torps?"

"It'll never happen! She is a fleet carrier for crying out loud! She will have at least 10 destroyer escorts to take out subs and her air wing can easily handle US torpedo bombers!"

"Okay Amuro, write up your proposal and I'll take it to beauships for approval. Make sure that you give me a solid dollar figure too. The admirals love to see dollar figures. They want to make the politicians happy. While you're at it, check to see if you get some more subcontracts out to Mr. Yomitisha's district. He is a big whig on the appropritations committee and he has Tojo's ear. He'll torp any proposals that don't have subcontracts in his district!"


As for dense AAA defences. See the attached video! Be warned, it is bloody!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CUl1mAjTTb0

This is the Shinano's sister-ship the Yamato and her death to a swarm of US bombers.

[taalismn]

...and provide us hardware-mongers with additional material..>I mean, what -IF- the REF(or any of the three major services in Robotech) had experimented with the 'gunship' theory with one-off ships(much as the US Air Force experimented with B-17s armed with extra machine guns..[one played a central role in the dramatic case of an Italian ace who used a captured USAF P-38 to shoot down straggling bombers]..or the B-25s with 10+ cannons)....Characters might be assigned to such a 'mutt' of a vessel, with orders to prove the value of the configuration...

This is a mixed blessing...the extra weaponry puts strain on power systems and fire control, and the space they take up cuts into room that might be used for other things....like munitions storage, or, god help you, recreational space for the crew...Plus the ship is either posted to missions/regions where there's NO action to be found(command has no confidence in this idea) which means that when trouble DOES come the PCs' way, they're likely to have little to no backup(Command feels the lack of activity in the sector didn't warrent additional units on a 'cushy' assignment)...or else the ship is sent into the forefront of combat, both to test the design assumption and because glowingly optimistic simulations show the ship should sail right through the worst of a plasma-and-mecha furball...

[Aramanthus]

Excellent ideas guys!

Oh it waas the Archerfish which sank the IJN Shinano. And she was hit in the stern with those torpedos.

[taalismn]

Designers always seem to forget something, don't they??? What looks good on paper in an office sometimes just doesn't pull through when bullets and torps start flying.

The old graveyard joke we Army types toss around come to mind: Our equippment comes from the lowest bidder!!

"Hey Shin! I found out how we can underbid Toyota! We will just build the Shinano without water tight doors! We will save weeks of construction time (labor$$) and thousands of tons of steel! That will give us a competitive advantage in the bidding process AND we will be heros because we will get her to sea six months early!"

"I don't know about that Amuro. What will happen if the Shinano gets hit by US torps?"

"It'll never happen! She is a fleet carrier for crying out loud! She will have at least 10 destroyer escorts to take out subs and her air wing can easily handle US torpedo bombers!"

"Okay Amuro, write up your proposal and I'll take it to beauships for approval. Make sure that you give me a solid dollar figure too. The admirals love to see dollar figures. They want to make the politicians happy. While you're at it, check to see if you get some more subcontracts out to Mr. Yomitisha's district. He is a big whig on the appropritations committee and he has Tojo's ear. He'll torp any proposals that don't have subcontracts in his district!"

.

We'll never know if this was the case...the Japanese Admiralty kept the records of the subsequent investigation a secret, then destroyed all papers afterwards...

Ironically, when the Shinano went down, she had about a thousand shipyard workers aboard her(mostly Korean forced labor)...Not being trained in disciplined damage control, they were transferred off to the Shinano's escort destroyers when it became evident that they were getting in the way....Captain Abe(who went down with his ship) addressed them before they (no doubt, gratefully) left with "You have a unique opportunity here...You have built this ship and now you will see her sink...This only emphasizes the importance of your duty to build more and stronger ships for Japan!"

[drewkitty ~..~]

They will probably start using the Shadow Equipped Ships in a Non-combat role till they can be hauled into the shipyard for a re-fit. A possible combat roll would be as an carrier for the fighters that have been re-fit to work w/o the shadow devices.

If they have any of the Tri-stars left they might activate them...but that might take up too much shipyard space from the re-fit of the reguler ships of the line.

While in the RT:RM the masters did cut of communications from SS Liberty, they never did say the the SS was attacked. Remember their attention was focused on the recovery of the PCM not conquest at the time. Though I thing they went about it stupidly. They could of just landed one of the Mother ships or a small but locally overwhelming force and got on with the recovery ASAP while the Government still mobilizing itself for war.

The bad part of the RTSC is that the movie doesn't give you any of the "alternate background story" from what was previously published. So We don't know how the fight went or if there was even a fight with 'The Regent's" Invid; or if they just found the Master's home-world deserted by everyone but the master's rejects and a remittent of tirolians.

Ether way, SSL would of been the forward base for the fight against the Invid. And seeing the size of the N-S missiles I would say that they would have to be site built . So the SSL that is depicted in the RT;SC is the result of an expansion from the RT:RM SSL.

As part of the previously published background story, the RT: Factory was destroyed by the invid, along with the remaining zentradie that remained behind, after it had been moved back to earth orbit.

As for the assertion the the RT:SC was the only new RT show, this is false.
They had started making the RT:Sentinels way back when. I should know because I still have the video tape of what they had finished, bought through a reguler retail outlet. If you look in the "Magic of Palladium" collection book you can see the ads for the tape.

[Aramanthus]

I think that your suggestion about the Shadow tech affected fleet would be used on light duty until they can be overhauled makes a lot of sense to me! I agree!

[taalismn]

It remains to be seen how much of the Sentinels original movie they will salvage....It may go the way of the Megazone 23/Robotech dub, and vanish into obscurity...with the exception that the established new characters will be continue on in the new series.

I'd like to think that the REF acuired more than one Factory Satellite, or learned out to build megastructures of similar grandeur(with Karbarrean help?)...it's a big leap, structure-wise, from the 'spaceturnip' of Sentinels to the 'Robotech Deep Space 9' architecture we see in RT: SC

[Aramanthus]

I thought it was mentioned in some of the old Robotech source books from Palladium where they mentioned capturing at least one other factory. I don't rememver where, but I'm sure I saw it somewhere. But of course my thoughts is never put all of your eggs in one basket. I always figured that the REF would have established at least two seperate shipyards, if not more.

[Tiree]

I believe there is only One official Robotech Factory. But in the RPG there are two different ones IIRC - REF Field Guide and Return of the Masters, the latter having the super AI.

[taalismn]

Hopefully, there will be others...nonfunctional and since gone dark since the Invid Wars, but still out there, waiting to be found, refueled, and restored to operational status...

[Aramanthus]

I agree with you Taalismn! That would be a huge help in the war against the Haydonites! I want the Haydonites to pay for their crimes!!!!!