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Normally it states one way or another if a critter is a Supernatural Creature, Demon, or Creature of Magic, however Rifts Conversion Book does not state for Lizard Mages.

They seem to be a bit more powerful than standard squishies that know a bunch of magic. Id say they are at least Supernatural Creatures at the very least.

Im trying to determine for the purposes of PPE channeling.

I would treat them as mortals for this, they seam to me to just be more in tune with magic w/o being magic themselves.

Lizard Mages are NOT supernatural creatures. They are simply reptillian beings with a bizarre flair for magic. I recall one that was a Life Force Wizard, and those powers made him come across as almost Supernatural, but they are not.

IIRC in non high magic worlds they are mortal but in high magic worlds like Rifts they are a Creature of Magic.

gadrin wrote:well according to Conversion Book 1 (the old one) they are:

Legend tells us that the lizard mages were among the first rulers of
the Palladium World, perhaps even during the Age of Chaos. The
legend suggests that the lizard mages were second in power only to the
dreaded Old Ones and that it was they who created the elven race!
Legend also credits these creatures of magic to be the masters of time,
preserving themselves by traveling to other dimensions or placing themselves
in a state of suspended animation in magic circles of great power. Circles not known to humans and their kin.

Don't know what the new version has on 'em.

Well, that's interesting. I can't recall anywhere in the new books where it calls them Creatures of magic. I could be wrong, but I don's recall. As to them being creatures of magic on Rifts and other high magic worlds, that makes sense, since the same rules apply to Minotaurs and their ilk. Not supernatural on Palladia, but become that way on Rifts.

gadrin wrote:well according to Conversion Book 1 (the old one) they are:

Legend tells us that the lizard mages were among the first rulers of
the Palladium World, perhaps even during the Age of Chaos. The
legend suggests that the lizard mages were second in power only to the
dreaded Old Ones and that it was they who created the elven race!
Legend also credits these creatures of magic to be the masters of time,
preserving themselves by traveling to other dimensions or placing themselves
in a state of suspended animation in magic circles of great power. Circles not known to humans and their kin.

Don't know what the new version has on 'em.

Ah, its in the Revised edition as well. Thanks for putting me in the right direction!

They are creatures of magic in any and all dimenisons: just not all dimensions have high enough magic energy to make it USEFUL to them.

Yeah! More creatures of magic to pit against my pitful PCs. As their magic breaks them down and then lizard teeth, claws and tail-lashing rips their pitful PC bodies to shreds....HHHAAAA...HHAAA.....HHAA...HA...Hee...hee.. er...um...Oh, you all are still here, huh?

Well, I was just....um....er....oh look at the time, gotta go.

I knew something about them being a creature of Magic was mentioned. I do know that in High Magic worlds they become Immortal.

They seem somewhat akin to dragons. They make good villains and alchemists.

runebeo wrote:1) They seem somewhat akin to dragons. 2)They make good villains and alchemists.

1: no

2: yes

it is mentioned that they might be akin to dragons but only because like dragons they are warmblooded.

Kagashi wrote:Lizard Mages = Creatures of Magic?

Yes.

Rifts Conversion Book P143: Lizard Mage

I think they ARE considered a supernatural creature and NOT a creature of magic as the above statements are from the background of the creature not the creatures stat block. Where it states that:

Alignment: Typically aberrant evil, but occasionally some are diabolic, miscreant or anarchist. CONSIDERED A SUPERNATURAL EVIL.

Anything tha registers as supernatural evil is a supernatural creature and not a creature of magic

dungeon666master wrote:Rifts Conversion Book P143: Lizard Mage

I think they ARE considered a supernatural creature and NOT a creature of magic as the above statements are from the background of the creature not the creatures stat block. Where it states that:

Alignment: Typically aberrant evil, but occasionally some are diabolic, miscreant or anarchist. CONSIDERED A SUPERNATURAL EVIL.

Anything tha registers as supernatural evil is a supernatural creature and not a creature of magic

And yet the same page you just listed clearly says they are a creature of magic.

Northern Ranger wrote:Lizard Mages are NOT supernatural creatures. They are simply reptillian beings with a bizarre flair for magic. I recall one that was a Life Force Wizard, and those powers made him come across as almost Supernatural, but they are not.

BTW: That was a gromek, not a lizard-mage, that was the Life Force Wizard from IatEotW.

The Beast wrote:

dungeon666master wrote:Rifts Conversion Book P143: Lizard Mage

I think they ARE considered a supernatural creature and NOT a creature of magic as the above statements are from the background of the creature not the creatures stat block. Where it states that:

Alignment: Typically aberrant evil, but occasionally some are diabolic, miscreant or anarchist. CONSIDERED A SUPERNATURAL EVIL.

Anything tha registers as supernatural evil is a supernatural creature and not a creature of magic

And yet the same page you just listed clearly says they are a creature of magic.

That is because they are both. The lizard Mage is a Supernatural Evil Creature of Magic.

Some things are Supernatural. Some beings are Creatures of Magic. Others are both. The Lizard Mage is one that is Both.

Marcethus wrote:That is because they are both. The lizard Mage is a Supernatural Evil Creature of Magic.

Some things are Supernatural. Some beings are Creatures of Magic. Others are both. The Lizard Mage is one that is Both.

I completely agree with that. I was just point out that the books specificly mention that lizard mages are CoMs.

The Beast wrote:

Marcethus wrote:That is because they are both. The lizard Mage is a Supernatural Evil Creature of Magic.

Some things are Supernatural. Some beings are Creatures of Magic. Others are both. The Lizard Mage is one that is Both.

I completely agree with that. I was just point out that the books specificly mention that lizard mages are CoMs.

Yeah awhile back there was an arguement/discussion on here about what constitutes a creature of Magic and a Supernatural one.

According to RUE we have a definitive lifespan, albeit changes in heavily magical areas, so we are a COM and not Supernatural. I like to think of myself as supernaturally misundeerstood not supernatural evil.

Khord - Lizard Mage wrote:According to RUE we have a definitive lifespan, albeit changes in heavily magical areas, so we are a COM and not Supernatural. I like to think of myself as supernaturally misundeerstood not supernatural evil.

SN creatures can also have a definitive lifespan. So what does that have to do with being a COM or a SN creature?

Though as I said I still think they are both.

A Creature of Magic is always a Supernatural Being, but a SN being is not always a CoM, the same that every Mustang is a Ford, but not all Fords are Mustangs.

Kagashi wrote:A Creature of Magic is always a Supernatural Being, but a SN being is not always a CoM, the same that every Mustang is a Ford, but not all Fords are Mustangs.

Dessicate the Supernatural, pg 217 RUE, Level 9:The spell works only on the supernatural i.e. demons, elementals, gods, alien intelligences and the like. It goes on to say rather specifically that dragons, fairies, sphinx, unicorns and a handful of other beings are Creatures of Magic which makes the immune to the spell.

Kagashi wrote:A Creature of Magic is always a Supernatural Being, but a SN being is not always a CoM, the same that every Mustang is a Ford, but not all Fords are Mustangs.

No. A creature of magic is a largely biological being, for whom magic forms a major part of their biology. A supernatural creature is an a-biological creature... one who isn't precisely life as we know it. Supernatural creatures, when killed, fade away. Creatures of Magic do not.

Mark Hall wrote:

Kagashi wrote:A Creature of Magic is always a Supernatural Being, but a SN being is not always a CoM, the same that every Mustang is a Ford, but not all Fords are Mustangs.

No. A creature of magic is a largely biological being, for whom magic forms a major part of their biology. A supernatural creature is an a-biological creature... one who isn't precisely life as we know it. Supernatural creatures, when killed, fade away. Creatures of Magic do not.

If SN critters faded away as RUE eludes to, how Necromancers get bones of demons to attach to their bodies? Shouldnt they fade away? How does one make armor like that found in Wrapped in Leather in Splynn Dimensional Market? How do you make armor out of something that faded away?

Because that sentence in RUE contradicts these examples and others in the large pre-RUE Rifts library, I ignore that particular RUE blurb.

The way I see it is, the only non-SN beings in Rifts are intelligent humanoids and dbee aliens (humans, elves, ogres, kittani, Grackle Tooth, etc...), and Animals (Lions, Tigers, and Bears). Everything else is supernatural including Creatures of Magic (Dragons, Faeries, Unicorns), Demons (Demons, Dyvals...Greater, Lesser, Sub), Monsters (Melech, Demon Deers, Devil Unicorns), Undead (Vampires, Bone Fiends), and Gods.

Basically, if its not on this Earth today, or what you would consider a Star Trek alien, its Supernatural (what you would consider Fantasy elements). That's how it was before RUE anyway.

Kagashi wrote:

Mark Hall wrote:

Kagashi wrote:A Creature of Magic is always a Supernatural Being, but a SN being is not always a CoM, the same that every Mustang is a Ford, but not all Fords are Mustangs.

No. A creature of magic is a largely biological being, for whom magic forms a major part of their biology. A supernatural creature is an a-biological creature... one who isn't precisely life as we know it. Supernatural creatures, when killed, fade away. Creatures of Magic do not.

If SN critters faded away as RUE eludes to, how Necromancers get bones of demons to attach to their bodies? Shouldnt they fade away? How does one make armor like that found in Wrapped in Leather in Splynn Dimensional Market? How do you make armor out of something that faded away?

Because that sentence in RUE contradicts these examples and others in the large pre-RUE Rifts library, I ignore that particular RUE blurb.

The way I see it is, the only non-SN beings in Rifts are intelligent humanoids and dbee aliens (humans, elves, ogres, kittani, Grackle Tooth, etc...), and Animals (Lions, Tigers, and Bears). Everything else is supernatural including Creatures of Magic (Dragons, Faeries, Unicorns), Demons (Demons, Dyvals...Greater, Lesser, Sub), Monsters (Melech, Demon Deers, Devil Unicorns), Undead (Vampires, Bone Fiends), and Gods.

Basically, if its not on this Earth today, or what you would consider a Star Trek alien, its Supernatural (what you would consider Fantasy elements). That's how it was before RUE anyway.

Even Pre RUE there were debates as to what all was Supernatural and Creatures of Magic as there is a distinction between both.

Mark Hall wrote:

Kagashi wrote:A Creature of Magic is always a Supernatural Being, but a SN being is not always a CoM, the same that every Mustang is a Ford, but not all Fords are Mustangs.

No. A creature of magic is a largely biological being, for whom magic forms a major part of their biology. A supernatural creature is an a-biological creature... one who isn't precisely life as we know it. Supernatural creatures, when killed, fade away. Creatures of Magic do not.

Dragons are supernatural and there is a whole list of uses for dragon parts in Gods and Dragons plus JU has dragon hide armor

and what about the blood for dragon juicers

Kagashi wrote:If SN critters faded away as RUE eludes to, how Necromancers get bones of demons to attach to their bodies? Shouldnt they fade away? How does one make armor like that found in Wrapped in Leather in Splynn Dimensional Market? How do you make armor out of something that faded away?

Either magical preservation or, more commonly, native Supernatural creatures; if you kill a demon in hell, it remains.