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what gizmo's(devices)would you give a tinker player character?
this class was in a early rifter,just so you know.

i had a player playing a modified tinker class. it was part blacksmith part engineer. we thought the tinker occ in the rifter was a little too far fetched/powerful (the steampunk car suggestion in the rifter specifically). i didnt 'give' him anything to start other than his starting gear (weapon, armor, tools, a few bucks). the cool thing about a class like this, in a setting like this, is that its fun/challenging to come up with inventions he can create with the tech at hand.

ours focused on gimmick weaponry, like poison injecting knives, a variety of arrow heads (exploding, smoke, holy water, etc), and overpowered bows/crossbows. he also came in handy camping (screw the tent lets make a fort) and traveling (carriage repair, ship maintenance). the whole time we played he took notes in his character sheet of inventions that popped into his head, and how he could actually make them given the environment he was in. it was a great opportunity to role play, especially for a guy (in real life) who loves 'tinkering'...

my only regret is that he didnt stick around long enough in our group to see some of his ideas come to fruition.

whats so farfetched about steam powered cars?

especially for a class that is supposed to have the ability to produce devices well in advance of the normal age?

heck, the ancient romans had elements of steam power (they used in things like opening temple doors when the ceremonial fires were lit), they just never came up with the idea of harnessing it to propell a cart.
the an inventor in the 16th century ottoman empire even developed a steam turbine as a way of turning a spit (exploiting the heat of the cooking fire) a steam turbine makes it a potential drive for a steam powered vehicle.

glitterboy2098 wrote:whats so farfetched about steam powered cars?

especially for a class that is supposed to have the ability to produce devices well in advance of the normal age?

i just didnt like the idea in my game. in the thousands of years of history in the setting, no one bothered to push technology. in our world it makes sense to have tech being developed like it was, since we lack magic as a crutch. maybe if there were lots of tinker'ers in palladium for thousands of years developing this stuff it would be more common there. in my game, thats not the case =)

however, part of the point of he tinker's were to show that technology was being developed, just not adopted widely.

and there are viable reasons for it. a gun will be less effective than a bowman. early 'handgunners' in real life were more or less ignored by most militaries due to the fact their weapons were hard to make, tended to fail, were inaccurate, and lacked the rate of fire of a trained longbowman. the fact a longbow or crossbow could defeat plate armor (and mail armor) as well or better than a early 'handcannon' didn't even leave them that as an advantage. it wasn't until the matchlock that armies started to take notice (and even that required the prussian army bucking tradition when rebuilding it's army)

cannon weren't really all that effective in battle on land until the 1700's, and were mostly reserved for seige warfare. cannon on ships weren't particularly effective either. mostly because casting techniques weren't up to uniform bore sizes or light but strong cannon.

a steam 'horseless cart' is going to be impressive to see, but not as effective as a horse.

and so on. there are valid reasons for gadgets to be ignored by the major powers. not the least of which is the commonality of the "knight" mentality. it takes lots of money, training, and a noble title to become a knight. a handgunner can be an all but untrained peasant. handgunners can cut down a unit of knights easily.

since knights were of a higher class, they'd push for handgunners to be declared dishonorable and not used.

it sounds silly, but real world japan did exactly that. after gunpowder weapons were introduced by european traders, an age of muskets emerged, but after it got the Tokugawa's in power, they worked ot re-elevate the traditional nobility classes, including the samurai. thus they banned all firearms, including cannon.


the fact that, in PFRPG, magic is just as effective (more so in some cases) just means the few things gunpowder weapons are decent at (such as seiges) are up against very potent competition. and since they already have magic schools in most nations, re-orginizing their militaries for new gunpowder based weapons or steam vehicles or similar gadgets just isn't economically attractive to them.


i would however point out that i could see Dwarves looking into the gdgets of tinker's, since they have shunned the use of magic and they'd need an edge to make up for that.

Wow glitterboy2098, your like my No. 1 fan!

t0m,

Steam cars/wagons are not so far fetched as the others have already pointed out. But the idea was that cost and resources would play a heavy roll in what a Tinkerer could make/create as well as his level (i.e. he's got to do some hefty dungeon crawling and question to make a boat load of cash before he can start turning these ideas into real gadgets).

Having said that, Palladium Books wants to keep the "magical" feel of the game and keep tech like the Tinkerer to a minimum. Which is fine, as that's sort of how I pictured it (Its the rare Tinkerer creating wacky and strange gadgets that act like magic but aren't magic, not a Tinkerer on every corner selling his wares).

I have also had a few people (who liked the article) come back with some interesting ideas and request, including the melding of "science" and magic to create things like a fire elemental powered steam car (kind of like a primeval techno-wizard).

Abe,

I had some other interesting ideas and have even been encouraged by some of my other fans to do Tinkerers 2, adding more gadgets and details etc. But alas my real job, my kids, my Undersea2 manuscript and World of Warcraft consume most of my time... Though such a project may see the light of day in 10 years or so...

Steam cars/wagons are not so far fetched as the others have already pointed out. But the idea was that cost and resources would play a heavy roll in what a Tinkerer could make/create as well as his level (i.e. he's got to do some hefty dungeon crawling and question to make a boat load of cash before he can start turning these ideas into real gadgets).

hmm...i hadn't thought of that. but it makes sense. in medieval times innovation tended to be stifled, due to the "status quo". it wasn't until the black plague came round and wiped out 2/3rds of the population that you saw lots of intrest in making new devices. and that was because with a lower population, you had fewer laborers, and labor saving devices were thus a premium so landholders didn't have to hire so many farmers, smiths, ect at the inflated wages now required.

the economic issues were also a big part. the typical person couldn't afford the raw materials (bronze, iron, wood, chemicals) nor the workmanship (smiths to forge/pour iron/bronze parts, carpenters for wooden ones, clockmakers for gearing, alchemists for chemicals...), which required you to custom order from the members of the specific guilds.
you needed a patron, a noble or wealthy merchant to fund things. and as leonardo Davinci found out, anything you made had to be something the patron would want to have and feels he could use. if hired to devise warmachines, most medieval patrons were intrested in new seige weapons or regular weapons, a tank just didn't catch their fancy the way cavalry did. and things like flying devices, diving suits, submarines, yeah right.


now, in PFRPG independants have a source of funding beyond a patron. they can go out and dungeon-delve and adventure-quest in hopes of aquiring the funds they need to buy the parts and labor their devises require.
i suspect that the "mad inventor" bit is more common for NPC's though, a tinker setting up shop in a city, selling simple devices like astrolabes, compases, clocks, toys, and using the profits to fund the construction of their inventions. if an invention is useful enough (printing press, sewing machine, a better plow, and so on) they might be able to interest someone with major funds to invest in more being built.

in fact, i suspect there would be a "tinker's guild" in most major cities, where those NPC tinkers can get together with the PC ones to trade blueprints, sell each other their useful devices, and generally exchange the news and ideas of their chosen profession.

glitterboy2098 wrote:in fact, i suspect there would be a "tinker's guild" in most major cities, where those NPC tinkers can get together with the PC ones to trade blueprints, sell each other their useful devices, and generally exchange the news and ideas of their chosen profession.

Actually, there is a blurb about that in the Library of Bletherad.
Tinkerers are considered...to put it bluntly...insane.
The way the people in general look at technology as *we* know it... If you can't be bothered to learn the skill, and would rather find a way to do it easier/faster...learn magic! (It's considered safer, and "natural.")

Think about tinkerers as the ones in the towers in isolated areas instead of mages.
About the only place Tinkerers can freely exchange information would be in the Library.

The Land of the Damned 3 Raw Edition has some tinkering stuff in it that I found worth the read.

My biggest issue with tinkers is that a lot of their ideas are based off player knowledge rather than character knowledge. Technological advancement came in steps and 'somehow' the tinkers knows things many levels above palladium tech level, which isn't an easy problem to solve.

kiralon wrote:My biggest issue with tinkers is that a lot of their ideas are based off player knowledge rather than character knowledge. Technological advancement came in steps and 'somehow' the tinkers knows things many levels above palladium tech level, which isn't an easy problem to solve.

OTOH, Earth doesn't have random portals appearing to bring in people from other dimensions.

Hotrod wrote:The Land of the Damned 3 Raw Edition has some tinkering stuff in it that I found worth the read.

humm something to look forward to. just ordered mine today.

kiralon wrote:My biggest issue with tinkers is that a lot of their ideas are based off player knowledge rather than character knowledge. Technological advancement came in steps and 'somehow' the tinkers knows things many levels above palladium tech level, which isn't an easy problem to solve.

I agree with this issue of players meta-gaming.

It is like the PF's world if given designs to the parts of BP firearms would be able to fabricate the parts. But where did the Idea for them come from?
(Example in the sci-fi/alt historical novel series Ring of Fire: apl. Town time shifter to the 1600's Germany. A couple of the town's kids take apart a sewing machine to see how it works and is able to get the crafters of the time to make their parts. Which was totally lajit for the novel, but w/o some sort of idea conduit meta-gaming like this is on the verge of breaking the game.)

Borast wrote:Actually, there is a blurb about that in the Library of Bletherad.
Tinkerers are considered...to put it bluntly...insane.
The way the people in general look at technology as *we* know it... If you can't be bothered to learn the skill, and would rather find a way to do it easier/faster...learn magic! (It's considered safer, and "natural.")

Think about tinkerers as the ones in the towers in isolated areas instead of mages.
About the only place Tinkerers can freely exchange information would be in the Library.

Where in the book is this mentioned by the way? I can't find any mention of it in my copy of the book so I'm just wondering.

My Tinkerer made a flat bed carriage that hid a siege engine. I've seen it on occasion and once it was labeled as the 'infernal machine' another was a springald but it was a wall on a wheel with arrow slats each loaded with an arrow and behind it was a flexible panel that was pulled back. When released, I presume, it was supposed to launch all the arrows. In my case the bed of the wagon came up and there were repeating crossbows that were mechanically driven by the movement of the wheels in case there were no horses the mechanism was powered through pedals and gears.
Lets see, then there was mace with retractable cable so it could act like a foil was imagined to be used against armor to find the weak spots, popping in to eye holes and blinding, sliding through the links in chain mail. Both minor and critical damage at the same time.
A sword that was hidden as multiple pieces of armor so if a knight was captured and disarmed but not... disarmored he would still have a weapon.
The canesword
The tripple blade parrying dagger
A steel lance that was hollow and had holes all along its shaft that broke away at the handle and a barbed spear head to bleed out giant sized creatures
A shield that collapsed like the one in the first few episodes of Escaflowne
I can't remember the rest.
These were used by the rest of the party.

Eric42 wrote:

Borast wrote:Actually, there is a blurb about that in the Library of Bletherad.
Tinkerers are considered...to put it bluntly...insane.
The way the people in general look at technology as *we* know it... If you can't be bothered to learn the skill, and would rather find a way to do it easier/faster...learn magic! (It's considered safer, and "natural.")

Think about tinkerers as the ones in the towers in isolated areas instead of mages.
About the only place Tinkerers can freely exchange information would be in the Library.

Where in the book is this mentioned by the way? I can't find any mention of it in my copy of the book so I'm just wondering.

It's in one of the Rifters. The Rifter Index can tell you which one.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:

Eric42 wrote:

Borast wrote:Actually, there is a blurb about that in the Library of Bletherad.
Tinkerers are considered...to put it bluntly...insane.
The way the people in general look at technology as *we* know it... If you can't be bothered to learn the skill, and would rather find a way to do it easier/faster...learn magic! (It's considered safer, and "natural.")

Think about tinkerers as the ones in the towers in isolated areas instead of mages.
About the only place Tinkerers can freely exchange information would be in the Library.

Where in the book is this mentioned by the way? I can't find any mention of it in my copy of the book so I'm just wondering.

It's in one of the Rifters. The Rifter Index can tell you which one.

I actually was referring to the quote about Library of Bletherad have a blurb somewhere. I wanted the know where that blurb is.

Eric42 wrote:

Borast wrote:Actually, there is a blurb about that in the Library of Bletherad.
Tinkerers are considered...to put it bluntly...insane.
The way the people in general look at technology as *we* know it... If you can't be bothered to learn the skill, and would rather find a way to do it easier/faster...learn magic! (It's considered safer, and "natural.")

Think about tinkerers as the ones in the towers in isolated areas instead of mages.
About the only place Tinkerers can freely exchange information would be in the Library.

Where in the book is this mentioned by the way? I can't find any mention of it in my copy of the book so I'm just wondering.

Hang on, I have in open on PDF ...
<ALT> +<TAB>
...
I'm back...
Page 28, left column, starts halfway down the page. Last two paragraphs for entry of The Artifex Wing.

Borast wrote:
Hang on, I have in open on PDF ...
<ALT> +<TAB>
...
I'm back...
Page 28, left column, starts halfway down the page. Last two paragraphs for entry of The Artifex Wing.

Cool, thanks. I was hoping it they had made the Tinkerer a bit more "official" than the original article said it was. I personally love the idea of the Tinkerer and would love to see it made more official.

The Tinkerer detailed in Rifter #10 just might be what was referenced in LoB. R10 was published in April of 2000 and LoB was published in July of 2000.

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I would think that a tinker's gadgets would be more useful to a home or base, than to traveling adventurers because of the physical limitations of the tech base.
time pieces would be well within the abilities of the tinkerer if they were one that specialized in making gears and cogs.
Or maybe they build a steam car that they can race about a paved track or paved city streets (and being fined &/or in trouble for doing so). but it wouldn't be very useful "in the field" because it would be too heavy.
Or have a simple steam driven power hammer for their workshop. But more likely it would be a water wheel powered hammer or a water cylinder powered hammer (same principle as a steam cylinder with just falling water filling the cylinder to lift the plunger).


If the tinker was also some sort of enchanter, then the physical limitations could be offset somewhat for specific variety of items. They could make a folding crossbow the could unfold and/or nock itself.
Or maybe a sundial that works underground. (somehow linked to the natural cycle of the sun though magic.)

As such Tinkerers are in essence much like a Alchemist...a NPC support char that makes mundane stuff.
The thing is...you need to get into the mindset of that sort of tech base before coming to a conclusion about what is possible and what isn't.

To give you an example.....That little plastic 'table' that pizza places that put/had put in the center of the pizza so the pizza box wouldn't collapse couldn't be invented till there was pizza boxes.