Forums of the Megaverse®

I use it for combined weapons like radar/laser guided missiles and artillery shells, operating combat computers and for directing computer controlled guns.

Couple of things -

1. Operating unfamiliar controls for the 1st time. Say a CS gunner turned merc gets into a NG Hunter or a Triax robot for the 1st time. A quick skill check to make sure he understands/remembers how to turn everything on.

2. Creative use of missiles. I'll use tele-operated missiles, and make the player roll against the gunner's WS skill from another robot/vehicle to see if the target can evade/jam whatever.

3. Another spin on the above, is they will attempt to fire missiles not at a specific target, but attempt to bracket a target, catching in its area of affect.

4. Perform basic/routine maintenance.

I added Lock On rules to my games

You need to make a successful Weapon Systems Roll (and use a melee action) to lock your targeting computer on to the target.

The benefits of the lock on are as follows:

1) Full use of the bonuses provided by any targeting systems on your vehicle/gun mount - no bonus without a lock on.
2) You get the Weapon Systems Bonus to Strke itself (+1 or +2 depending on the main book you read)
3) If you are firing misisles, the +3 or +5 to strike from guided missiles applies as does the smart bomb multiple attacks
4) Your targeting computer compensates for target range and movement, negating strike penalties caused by shootign at a moving target or one at long range.

Ive used it to base the ability to link weapons. That way you could fire a primary and secondary weapon system at the same time.

I've been using it in any situation where you dont have the pilot skill or the PA/Robot HTH skill, or where one doesnt apply.
Like the passangers in a tank when they man the guns, or the pilot in a robot he doesnt have a skill for.
OR, weapon emplacements, like the time my team set up a few heavy laser turrets outside a town.
Also remember that (like W.P.'s) this skill does more than just provide a strike bonus, it teaches you how it works and how to fix it.

Based on the comments here, our gaming group finally ruled something out as to how Weapon Systems should be used. Which includes stuff that might or might not have been intended by Palladium.

Weapon Systems Skill will be the only skill usable to shoot through a computer interface when there is absolutely no other visual, as on a big spaceship or boat.
This might include missile launchers when a target would be beyond the horizon. This might include mechs with enough range and compatible weapons.
A mech pilot using a non-handheld system, but having visuals, can automatically add the weapon system skills to his W.P. if available for said system.
Someone firing through a turret where both visuals and targeting systems are available can also use both.

Tanks :
Since we're playing robotech during the global civil war and have a group of players still stuck with tanks of the 90s, the following became interesting as for having something to roll for tank commanders.
Tanks that still use crews with a pilot, loader, a gunner and a separate Tank commander for the canon can use the skills as follow;
- The loader doesn't necessarily have a skill for it, but must use an action to load the shell.
- The gunner will use the W.P. Heavy Mega-Damage weapons to shoot the cannon and coalesce the attack. That character could also technically shoot without receiving help from someone manning the weapon system console. Penalties might apply.
- The tank commander can use the weapon system skill in two ways :

• When ordering a shot and calling the munition, the commander gives the coordinates and approximate corrections to the gunner. Roll percentile to know if you can give your strike bonus to your gunner.
• When under attack, the commander can decipher an incoming attack in time and give instruction for the pilot to dodge. Roll percentile to know if you can give your "strike" bonus as a dodge bonus to the pilot.

Incidentally... This use of "weapon system" make me wonder if it could also be used in the context of a spotter giving indications to a sniper. After all, some of these instruments are primitive weapon system indicators.

Honestly, it's such a confusing mess of a skill that I've just gotten rid of it in my game.

If an R.C.C./O.C.C. would normally grant it, I give the player the option to take a heavy W.P. skill of choice in its place if they don't already have it, or any Pilot or Pilot Related of choice (with preference on Robot Combat Elite and similar skills, as appropriate to the class).

It really is a silly and convoluted skill when W.P.s are already a thing. But hey, that's Palladium Games for you.

As written it is a skill to provide a bonus to weapons that are mounted on vehicles.

I house rule it to be a Weapon Proficiency (WP) for interrogated weapons that are not directly manipulated by the gunner. Basically when the weapon is aimed mechanically and not by muscle movment I use weapon system as the WP. (PA arms I treat as just matching the operators muscle movement so count as muscle movement.)
It does mean I have to think about how a weapon is being controlled on a new vehicle or add on. (but once I make a ruling it typically stays that way.)

Example - Iron Hammer MBT
-weapons system
Main gun
Coaxial rail gun
Vulcan laser

-WP Heavy
Cupola rail gun

Then look at the sensor bonuses.
Targeting computer applies to weapon system weapons.
Laser targeting can apply to all.

Is in a RT 2nd ed game right now and the GM is using the WS roll to get another +1 to hit the target on a successful roll.

As for how it suppose to be used...???? *shrugs*
Maybe roll it when you're in an unfamiliar mecha for the first few times to see if you turn on the targeting computers correctly....

Yeah, it's just such a... weird skill. It doesn't even work like other ones that just augment other skills and abilities (such as Hunting or W.P. Sharpshooting). I guess it kind of resembles Roadwise in that they both have a percentage chance associated with them, but Roadwise gives you knowledge and all Weapon Systems seems to do is give you that +1 to attack. Which diminishes in usefulness as you level, whereas the other skills continue to add value to the character.

Even turning it into a W.P. doesn't make much sense, as then it just becomes a restrictive version of the W.P. Heavy Weapons skills. Which, I guess has a use? Just not a particularly good one.

So weird.

We always assumed that you needed a successful roll to "lock on" to an enemy. You could fire dumb missiles or short ranged weapons without lock on but to use guided missiles, smart missiles or especially long range (past visual) energy and projectile weapons you needed a successful lock.

In RT 1e we used WS for missile volleys, like you see in the cartoon. 6 Battlepods coming, I want to fire 24 guided missiles. I use first attack to lock on to all 6 (we used a penalty of 3% per target up to 5% per target depending on the game, we had to play with it. If I made my roll, skill minus penalty then my next attack 1 trigger squeeze, 24 missiles, 6 dead BPs.

It pairs with ECM. I want a lock, roll WS. You want to stop me, roll ECM. In my game the amount of success for ECM becomes a penalty on WS.

It is a really poorly defined skill but that just means you can do a lot with it.

I mean, do you require that with man-portable rocket launchers and similar weapons?

Simple, if it is guided or smart - Like Some man portable mediums from Mercs, or the Naruni micro missiles, or New Navy LAW 3, or the Arkohn backpack launchers to name a few then yes.

If it is dumb like most mini-missiles then no. Now I know a few GMs who make people roll Optic Systems to use a scope, like you see on most man portable mini-missile launchers but I don't.

Think of a Javelin anti-tank vs a LAW. A LAW is point and shoot, for the most part, while the Javelins are a lot more involved.

I may have been reading it wrong but I always weapon systems as kind of like archery and targeting

but it is kind of weird
1 it is typically used with vehicles, robot vehicles, and non direct aimed weapons on power armor

Crimson Dynamo wrote:Honestly, it's such a confusing mess of a skill that I've just gotten rid of it in my game.

What's confusing about it?

It really is a silly and convoluted skill when W.P.s are already a thing. But hey, that's Palladium Games for you.

Weapon Proficiencies cover hand-held weapons.
Weapon Systems covers vehicle mounted weapons.
They don't do the same thing.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Crimson Dynamo wrote:Honestly, it's such a confusing mess of a skill that I've just gotten rid of it in my game.

What's confusing about it?

It really is a silly and convoluted skill when W.P.s are already a thing. But hey, that's Palladium Games for you.

Weapon Proficiencies cover hand-held weapons.
Weapon Systems covers vehicle mounted weapons.
They don't do the same thing.

Weapon Systems is one of the easiest skills to understand. I have had plays at conventions who have never played PB games before who just knew that "I'm firing vehicle based missiles or lasers, I roll Weapons Systems". It is a broad skill, you could easily break this down into 3 to 5 skills and in fact Robotech 2e did add 2 or 3 skills to it, but that is the good thing.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Crimson Dynamo wrote:Honestly, it's such a confusing mess of a skill that I've just gotten rid of it in my game.

What's confusing about it?

It really is a silly and convoluted skill when W.P.s are already a thing. But hey, that's Palladium Games for you.

Weapon Proficiencies cover hand-held weapons.
Weapon Systems covers vehicle mounted weapons.
They don't do the same thing.

So...



On the one side, one gives complete understanding, whatever that means, and the other gives proficiency. Both give a strike bonus, only the Heavy Mega-Damage one rise with level, though Weapon Systems rise by percentile (which isn't clear when one should use it).

On a fast reading, one could say these aren't the same weapons, but they are clearly cross-cutting here. Rail guns doesn't exist in S.D.C. damages (at least not in RT); so we'd have to assume they are the same. I have no idea why Plasma Ejectors would be different from lasers and particle beams in that instance, but at least that's not sharing the same name. Missile and Mini-Missiles launchers are more or less the same. Rocket and Grenade launchers are less close, but still very similar. And especially : what would be, pray tell, the difference between canons and turrets of vehicles and robots when they both mentions it?
Which both clearly aren't handheld.

In the very least, one seems to be for the gunner, but then, one would have to make the difference between a dedicated gunner and one who shoots through a computerized system. I like the suggestion that one of the skill is for multiple missile lock, but there isn't a real rule about this, sadly. Which leaves me with three possible deductions :

1. The gunner and commander of a Tank wouldn't use the same skill though both participating on an attack.
2. That strike bonus isn't just strike if the vehicle / turret in questions is related to CIWS detection, including being shot at in tanks.
3. The gunner skill necessitate a line of sight, though that can be obtained through augmented optics; while the weapon system skill doesn't and rely on radar screen, GPS positioning, etc...

Thus if both are available, in a mech, why not use both as a fire assisted shot?
But this is more complicated with long distance shots from boat artillery and tanks that might be shooting from information only and not using visual.
Hence my proposition to recuperate the skill for the calculation a spotter would make for its sniper. Roll percentile to know if your calculations are correct, then add the strike bonus / (dodge bonus if reasonably available). Then use W.P. to actually do the shot.
In which case, not having visual would reduce the bonus from the W.P. to 0 (if we amount it to being blind).

But even that isn't clear cut. Technically, a gunner isn't necessarily using a line of sight, especially on a boat or older tanks where the commander has to tell the degree vocally and the gunner has to adjust through its analog readouts. And from the way the skills are written, one would be correct to ask if having detection systems and sensors, not indicated per say as weapon systems, procure a "line of sight" in the language of the rules.

Now if that is clearer for you, please share with the whole class.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Crimson Dynamo wrote:Honestly, it's such a confusing mess of a skill that I've just gotten rid of it in my game.

What's confusing about it?

It really is a silly and convoluted skill when W.P.s are already a thing. But hey, that's Palladium Games for you.

Weapon Proficiencies cover hand-held weapons.
Weapon Systems covers vehicle mounted weapons.
They don't do the same thing.

You beat me to it; I never understood the confusion about this skill.
It's pretty self-explanatory.

xunk16 wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Crimson Dynamo wrote:Honestly, it's such a confusing mess of a skill that I've just gotten rid of it in my game.

What's confusing about it?

It really is a silly and convoluted skill when W.P.s are already a thing. But hey, that's Palladium Games for you.

Weapon Proficiencies cover hand-held weapons.
Weapon Systems covers vehicle mounted weapons.
They don't do the same thing.

So...

Spoiler:

Weapon Systems: This is the complete understanding of weapon units and systems incorporated into military vehicles, power armor, and robot vehicles. It includes lasers, particle beams, rail guns, missile and grenade launchers, cannons, turrets and vehicle/robot weapon systems.
Adds a special bonus of + 1 to strike when using these types of weapons; this does not include handheld weapons (see Weapon Proficiencies).

W.P. Heavy Mega-Damage Weapons: Includes plasma ejectors, M.D. rail guns, rocket launchers, mini-missile launchers, and weapon turrets and cannons built into or which are a key part of giant robots, tanks, aircraft and other combat vehicles. A common skill of designated gunners. Damage varies with the type of weapon and manufacturer.

On the one side, one gives complete understanding, whatever that means, and the other gives proficiency. Both give a strike bonus, only the Heavy Mega-Damage one rise with level, though Weapon Systems rise by percentile (which isn't clear when one should use it).

Does the bonus from WP Heavy Mega-Damage weapons rise with level? I have an old copy of RUE, and it doesn't list any bonus at all.

what would be, pray tell, the difference between canons and turrets of vehicles and robots when they both mentions it?
Which both clearly aren't handheld.

Fair enough.
There's certainly overlap between the two skills, apparently more than I thought, assuming that they're talking about ALL turrets/cannons instead of just the heavy stuff.
I'd have said that laser turrets weren't covered by WP HMDW, but I now I can see some lack of clarity in that regard.
But it's far from the only time Palladium has had two skills that share jurisdiction.

After thinking on this a bit more, I've decided to homebrew it even further than I originally did.

I'm thinking a Weapon Systems check is required to activate and properly use any vehicle-mounted weapons the first time you go to use one in any given encounter, and you can only do so once per melee. Think Finn (or more correctly, Rey) failing to get the turrent in the Millenium Falcon working properly in The Force Awakens. Once you succeed on the check, the systems are online and free to be used until the encounter ends/you shut the systems back down. Failure means you're out of luck for at least 15 seconds, though you can always revert to using man-portable weapons, including heavy weapons like railguns as long as they're independent weapons and not a part of the vehicle/power armor/robot's built-in weapon systems.

You otherwise need the appropriate W.P. in order to gain the actual bonuses to strike with any given weapon.

It's the only use for it that makes any sense in my head, especially given the descriptions for W.P. Heavy Military Weapons and W.P. Heavy Energy Weapons. Though, honestly, I think I'd rather just remove it entirely. Rifts already has way too much bloat; a little pruning wherever you can find it can only be a good thing.

Crimson Dynamo wrote:After thinking on this a bit more, I've decided to homebrew it even further than I originally did.

I'm thinking a Weapon Systems check is required to activate and properly use any vehicle-mounted weapons the first time you go to use one in any given encounter, and you can only do so once per melee. Think Finn (or more correctly, Rey) failing to get the turrent in the Millenium Falcon working properly in The Force Awakens. Once you succeed on the check, the systems are online and free to be used until the encounter ends/you shut the systems back down. Failure means you're out of luck for at least 15 seconds, though you can always revert to using man-portable weapons, including heavy weapons like railguns as long as they're independent weapons and not a part of the vehicle/power armor/robot's built-in weapon systems.

That's generally how the skill usually works; you make a skill check to use the weapon in situations where the GM deems a skill is necessary, and without that skill you've either got to default based on percentile dice vs appropriate attribute, or you can't use the weapon (or have penalties, such as only being able to fire Wild).

You otherwise need the appropriate W.P. in order to gain the actual bonuses to strike with any given weapon.

Does WP Heavy Mega-Damage Weapons give a strike bonus these days?
My copy of RUE doesn't list one.

I don't see it listed with a bonus in mine either, but W.P. Heavy Military Weapons does which strongly suggests that it's just an omission. Especially since there's several references to it having a bonus in the same book, such as the elite Glitterboy bonuses on page 73 ("...in addition to any W.P. Heavy Energy Weapons skill bonuses").

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Crimson Dynamo wrote:After thinking on this a bit more, I've decided to homebrew it even further than I originally did.

I'm thinking a Weapon Systems check is required to activate and properly use any vehicle-mounted weapons the first time you go to use one in any given encounter, and you can only do so once per melee. Think Finn (or more correctly, Rey) failing to get the turrent in the Millenium Falcon working properly in The Force Awakens. Once you succeed on the check, the systems are online and free to be used until the encounter ends/you shut the systems back down. Failure means you're out of luck for at least 15 seconds, though you can always revert to using man-portable weapons, including heavy weapons like railguns as long as they're independent weapons and not a part of the vehicle/power armor/robot's built-in weapon systems.

That's generally how the skill usually works; you make a skill check to use the weapon in situations where the GM deems a skill is necessary, and without that skill you've either got to default based on percentile dice vs appropriate attribute, or you can't use the weapon (or have penalties, such as only being able to fire Wild).

You otherwise need the appropriate W.P. in order to gain the actual bonuses to strike with any given weapon.

Does WP Heavy Mega-Damage Weapons give a strike bonus these days?
My copy of RUE doesn't list one.

It is in RUE it is just in a weird place. See page 360-361

Warshield73 wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Crimson Dynamo wrote:After thinking on this a bit more, I've decided to homebrew it even further than I originally did.

I'm thinking a Weapon Systems check is required to activate and properly use any vehicle-mounted weapons the first time you go to use one in any given encounter, and you can only do so once per melee. Think Finn (or more correctly, Rey) failing to get the turrent in the Millenium Falcon working properly in The Force Awakens. Once you succeed on the check, the systems are online and free to be used until the encounter ends/you shut the systems back down. Failure means you're out of luck for at least 15 seconds, though you can always revert to using man-portable weapons, including heavy weapons like railguns as long as they're independent weapons and not a part of the vehicle/power armor/robot's built-in weapon systems.

That's generally how the skill usually works; you make a skill check to use the weapon in situations where the GM deems a skill is necessary, and without that skill you've either got to default based on percentile dice vs appropriate attribute, or you can't use the weapon (or have penalties, such as only being able to fire Wild).

You otherwise need the appropriate W.P. in order to gain the actual bonuses to strike with any given weapon.

Does WP Heavy Mega-Damage Weapons give a strike bonus these days?
My copy of RUE doesn't list one.

It is in RUE it is just in a weird place. See page 360-361

Ah!!
Thank you!!


Okay, so the way I'd take it is:
If all you have is WP Heavy Mega-Damage Weapons, and you get on a Spider Skull Walker or something, you need somebody to show you how to work a gun turret; you have familiarity, not real proficiency or complete understanding. You get the bonuses listed for WP HMDW.
If all you have is Weapon Systems, then you roll percentile dice to figure out how to work the gun turret; you got this on your own, without help. You get the +1 strike bonus from this skill.
If you have BOTH then you can figure the turret out yourself, and you get both the bonuses from WP HMDW and the +1 from Weapon Systems.

Looking at the bonuses from WP HMDW, it doesn't start off with anything at level 1, just gets a +1 strike at levels 2, 4, 7, 10, and 13.
For first level characters who are just gunners? Weapon Systems is better, because you get that +1 bonus right off the bat.

Does that work?

-getting your WP bonus out of a weapon mounted on a vehicle
-locking guided missiles on an evasive or low-signature target (stealth, organic creatures the missle isn't built to track)
-correcting for ECM issues
-firing during complex manuvers without it counting as "firing wild"
-"trust your instincts kid", spotting when to disable assisting systems and kill the cyber knight's bullcrap combat bonuses
-spotting when a weapon has been damaged to the point of inoperability (GM needs to handle the accounting for this'n, but i thought most do)

and probably a few more i've forgotten over the years!