Iron Engineer: The Cruiser Battle!

[Aramanthus]

Hmmm! Sounds great! I'm glad to be a volunteer judge! I can't wait to see the beginnings of the pics! And then the full blown set of stats to accompany the pics!

[KLM]

Interesting, waiting for what to come...

As a side note, West End Games published an Imperial Sourcebook, which details
several "true" cruisers and other ships which nicely fit the gap between the
TIE series and the mighty triangles.

Adios
KLM

[glitterboy2098]

one thing to keep in mind is that in most settings (star war's confusing classifications aside), a cruiser fits the real world definition.
that of a general duty frontline warship, intended for longer ranged missions.

unlike torpedo boats/gunboats, which pack powerful anti-ship weapons into a smallcraft, or destroyers, which sacrifice anti-ship weapons for better anti-smallcraft ones to hunt the gunboats/torpedoboats, a cruiser has to have a rough balance balance between anti-ship and anti-smallcraft.
(for completeness, a battleship usually sacrifices anti-smallcraft weapons to pack on as much anti-ship firepower as it can fit. which was why they needed destroyers to protect themelves from torpedoboats)

size wise a cruiser can be any size, although usually it falls somewhere towards the middle of the size range, with battleships usually being the biggest and frigates (basically a small form of destroyer or a big version of a torpedo/gun-boat) as the smallest.


capabilities wise it should be armed to be able to take out other warships, as well as smallcraft (shuttles, for instance), as well as fighters. however, it should not excel at any of those. a cruiser is a jack of all trades, master of none. depending on it's secondary roles, you could give it a slight preferance towards fighting any of those, but it should not be superior at fighting any of them. one should always want a battleship for anti-warship use, or a destroyer for anti-smallcraft use..

[glitterboy2098]

it's not exactly a specific definition, since there have been some very atypical cruisers in history. most were the early stuff from the transition from sail to steam (when most warships were classified using the Rating system, and a cruiser was basically just a steam powered 5th or 6th rate warship, particulalry in the early days of ironclads), but some were experiments in role, and were classified as "cruiser" because they didn't fit an existing classification. thus we got things like the Torpedo Cruiser, which was an escort design, or the Battlecruiser, which mounted heavy anti-ship guns at the expense of the lighter point defense guns, or the pocket battleships of WW2 germany, who somehow managed to cram the firepower of a battlecruiser onto a hull 2/3rds the size. then there were the really odd ones like the Antiaircraft cruisers of the royal navy, which sacrificed anti-ship firepower for a truely impressive point defense armament, or the Auxilary cruisers, which were little more than merchant frieghters with some gun turrets and torpedo tubes welded on.

"cruiser" seems to be a catch all term for any warship not a battleship, frigate, destroyer, or carrier. in most scifi, it tends to be used for the "jack of all trades" warships in the middle of the mass range and with no specialization. which is why i described it as such.

[taalismn]

Though in sci-fi 'battlecruiser' is bandied about as a term most often, simply because it sounds cool...
Whereas in real life, battlecruisers prompted such remarks as 'There's something wrong with our bloody ships today!" after two British battlecruisers promptly exploded at Jutland...

[KLM]

Though in sci-fi 'battlecruiser' is bandied about as a term most often, simply because it sounds cool...
Whereas in real life, battlecruisers prompted such remarks as 'There's something wrong with our bloody ships today!" after two British battlecruisers promptly exploded at Jutland...

Well, not exactly.

Battlecruisers (as well as early dreadnoughts) were a compromise among three factors:
- firepower
- speed
- armor

And designers in that era had to choose two.

However, later "fast battleships" (Bismarck, New Yersey) did not have to
sacrifice armor for speed.

And then there was the USS Alaska...

Back to Jütland, the thing which was wrong, was simply that the british ships were
filled to the brim with extra ammo, regardless of safety.

In other clashes, british battlecruisers were almost as sturdy then their german
counterparts.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As a side note: Dreadnoughts in history were named after the HMS Dreadnaught (sp?),
the first all-big-gun battleship (which happened to be the first by only a nose's lenght).
Her (and her relative's) most important feature was the unified main artillery (5*2 turrets
of 12"), instead the earlier battleships mixed guns
(like 2*2 turrets 12" and 6-12 pcs 6-8" in barbettes, or in the pre-dreadnoughts 2*2
turrets with 12" and 4*2 turrets of 9-10", plus 6-8" guns on barbettes).

In the 3 galaxies however the dreadnoughts are battlecarriers.

Adios
KLM

[glitterboy2098]

myself i'm not really in the mood to do a full statline for a cruiser (i prefer to make really atypical ships, as some of my previous posts have shown), but i can think of some traits that might be neat to see in one.

for example, most 3G's cruisers are built around one or two big guns, with a handful of weaker anti-ship guns for 360 degree coverage. missile batteries usually are limited to LRm's or smaller for anti-fighter work.

i'd love to see a cruiser turn that around. pack a large number of cruise missile launchers, and a sizable missile magazine to support a sustained barrage of said missiles. the smaller antiship guns could be retained. anti-fighter work would be via smaller laser weapons (with a pulse mode to make them effective)

[KLM]

Specifically for Phaseworld, they range between 300 to 800 feet, weighing in at 20,000 to 200,000 tons, and have MDC of 5 to 10 times greater than a frigate. The lightest cruiser, the TGE Smasher, has 18,000 MDC. The heaviest cruiser, the Warshield, has 45,000 MDC. They generally have crews of several hundred...from 200 to 400 or so, generally. They range from a squadron of 12 fighters and 10 power armors, to the Smasher, which carries 36 fighters (and it's noted that is a lot for a cruiser).

The Dwarven Iron Ships carry 48 fighters.

for example, most 3G's cruisers are built around one or two big guns, with a handful of weaker anti-ship guns for 360 degree coverage. missile batteries usually are limited to LRm's or smaller for anti-fighter work.

i'd love to see a cruiser turn that around. pack a large number of cruise missile launchers, and a sizable missile magazine to support a sustained barrage of said missiles. the smaller antiship guns could be retained.

Actually, the three "canon" cruisers are all capable for long range missile strike,
(or even bombardment) the two technological designs both have cruise missile
launchers, with hints of long range firepower, and the bottled demon missiles
are said to be anti-everything missiles.
-----------------------

The problem with current designs is that rules are sketchy, one must use
houserules. However, as these homebrew rules differ, so are the usefull
tactics (and design parameters).

Adios
KLM

[taalismn]

If it's intimidating, it's a cruiser, if it's godawful scary, it's a dreadnought or fortress...

[glitterboy2098]

for example, most 3G's cruisers are built around one or two big guns, with a handful of weaker anti-ship guns for 360 degree coverage. missile batteries usually are limited to LRm's or smaller for anti-fighter work.

i'd love to see a cruiser turn that around. pack a large number of cruise missile launchers, and a sizable missile magazine to support a sustained barrage of said missiles. the smaller antiship guns could be retained.

Actually, the three "canon" cruisers are all capable for long range missile strike,
(or even bombardment) the two technological designs both have cruise missile
launchers, with hints of long range firepower, and the bottled demon missiles
are said to be anti-everything missiles.

the cruise missile launchers on the canon ships are mostly supplimentary to the big gun(s). i'd like to see a ship where cruise missiles (or even better, non-canon missiles with even better range and accuracy..) as the primary armament.

as a cruiser it would probably not be as good as the rounded armaments of the current canon ships, but that just makes for neat fluff...

think of it as a 3 galaxies "torpedo cruiser"

The problem with current designs is that rules are sketchy, one must use
houserules. However, as these homebrew rules differ, so are the usefull
tactics (and design parameters).

Adios
KLM

my own (planned) houserules apply more realism to the ranges and movements (well, as real as an abstract set of rules can be without making it a bookkeeping nightmare). thus missiles are the primary "initial engagement" choice, with the volleys coasting for several melees (ranges in light seconds..), only using their drives to correct course. once the enemy gets within a few thousand km you open up with the more accurate direct fire beam and kinetic weapons.

[KLM]

There's a fitting paralell with an Icelandic MMORPG (EVE-online) where
missiles, (while it is quite possible to make a "sniper" battleship with
missiles) aren't the weapons of choice in "real" (=pvp) long range
engagements - mainly because guns do not have a "damage delay"
and because in the 30-some seconds it takes a missile to reach a long
range target, it can fire several salvoes, and then warp out.

Against fixed targets however...
----------

In this regard, the 3Galaxies are a bit hazy for me. Guns seem to be the
preferred main armament, so it looks like ships can easily warp out
(or even make "tactical" warps, like 1-200 km "hops").

The heavy reliance on STL fighters and their carriers however suggest
otherwise.

----------

As for "cruiser" classification: in the 3 galaxies I can make it with the
cruiser (and frigate) as a size category, not a role/designation category.

Adios
KLM

[KLM]

Oops... if I built a ship about 1200 feet in length... would that be too much?....

Lenght is not really relevant.

I mean look at this "beauty"
http://www.flickr.com/photos/crazykinux ... otostream/

her lenght is not much - since it is a vertical design.

Also, there is the difference in compact designs (like a borg cube) and long, needle-like
designs...

Weight is a more telling parameter.

Adios
KLM

[KLM]

youo mean displacement, right?

Well, not exactly.

Wikipedia:

The word displacement refers to the weight of the water that the ship displaces, or moves out of the way, while floating.A floating ship always displaces an amount of water which weighs the same as the ship.

Now, starships do not neccessarily float (they can be much denser than water).

Adios
KLM

[KLM]

Hang on there.... displacement is a measurement of the weight of a huge object (mostly ships) by the quantity of water displaced. There is no scale large enough to be placed under a supertanker or a modern cruise-liner. It also measures volume (specially in a submarine).

While a starship does not necessarily floats on the surface, it does still displaces water when being dump in a relatively large body, no? BTW, given sufficient depth and volume of water, and hull strength, any air-tight hollow object can achieve buoyancy. It's just that we have not the skill to make that kind of hull, nor have we been able to find sufficient depth on Earth.

Now, KLM, please don't get angry or sorts, just an academic debate.

Displacement is used for ships, because gives an indication of the ship's size
(volume) as well as its weight, since "wet ships" are supposed to float. Starships
however...

Well, a heavily armored ship might have a displacement of like 10.000 tons, while
its weight ranges well above 20.000 tons, thanks to the uranium alloyed armor.

As for getting angry: come on... Didn't we debated minuscule details
without insult in the past?

-------------

Back to topic:
viewtopic.php?f=28&t=80385&p=1597499&hilit=BEARSKI#p1597499

My golgan engineer staff is quite sure that the displacement
of this beauty is just a tad over 195.000 tons.
In case they are allowed to flood the hangar and a few cargo bays too ,
which the ship is perfectly suitable to perform and survive.

Adios
KLM

[Aramanthus]

This sounds great! I like how everyone is helping Darkmax, that way he'll be able to stat out his ships. I would live to see that Torpedo cruiser El Magico!

[Aramanthus]

AWESOME JOB!!! GB is going to be happy seeing those stats! I know I will! That is frickin cool! I'm looking forward to seeing some hints at the cruisers being produced!

[Aramanthus]

Now now Darkmax! I haven't made any decisions yet! Because I don't have anything to look at yet. And there is nothing to say this could happen more often too. Say once a month!

[KLM]

Maybe even declaring it as a call for a tender, submitted by an independent
stellar power block (3rd or 4th league), with detailed mission profiles, design
parameters, etc?

Adios
KLM

[taalismn]

Already working on stating up the 'Skirmish' you sent out early....
It's not a cruiser, but I'm working back into the stat-cruncher mode...

[Aramanthus]

I'm involving my group here in Racine, WI in this contest. They are going to get involved with the betting you (Taalismn) mentioned over on Omni News!

[glitterboy2098]

This sounds great! I like how everyone is helping Darkmax, that way he'll be able to stat out his ships. I would live to see that Torpedo cruiser El Magico!

It's visually done, I'm going to stat it out after I finish the one I'm doing for this contest.

Here's a couple shots of Glitterboy's requested torpedo cruiser. The ship I'm doing for the contest will be even better, I think.

Torpedo Cruiser

Torpedo Cruiser head-on

I'll post full stats and numerous pics in El Magico's shipyard when they're complete.

It is awesome! Looks like I'm going to lose.... Anyway, the ship reminds me of soemthing I saw in ST: TNG many years ago... can't put my finger on it.

not sure about Star Trek, but it looks rather like the offspring of a BC-304 Daedalus class battlecruiser and a Shadow Chronicles era Tokugawa class battleship...by which i mean, it looks awesome!

[Aramanthus]

I'm looking forward to judging this contest! It's going to be fun.

[glitterboy2098]

Hrmm, with a little less than 24 hours to go, my ship is ready. But we need confirmation from judges. Would Glitterboy or KLS like to be a guest judge? Still waiting to hear from Gadrin...

i really shouldn't be a judge, since it's one of my requests that is being entered. conflict of interest you know.

i'd be willing to judge in future Iron Engineer contests though

[glitterboy2098]

if the torpedo cruiser isn't being entered, i'd love to judge then.

in any case, i suggest the contestants post their ships here (and PM them to the judges), then the judges post their reviews here. the scores shouldn't be posted here, but PM'd to whoever is co-ordinating things (the host), for final tally. this way the scores don't influence the other judges, and the contestants get the results all at once.

[taalismn]

Delay on WZ/ATD entry....regret technical writer having rough days in mundania(shot of backed-up lanes of primitive hydrocarbon-burning groundcars in bumper-to-bumper traffic, and one particular car's occupant swearing and rolling his eyes about 'stupid mistake making that last turn' , FINALLY getting to work, and finding piles of new assignments... )

Even in Phaseworld, subcontracting has its perils...

[taalismn]

Well...I can see where you've improved on some of my projected stats, but I can also see where what I've managed to stat up, can improve on the original material...

What I may simply do, is bridge over what's here as a prototype and make my changes to a few systems... Merge the two into a more perfect whole..

Official explanation?
The Gigasaur's a prototype, one of several we've been working on at WZ/ATD to meet different projected tactical profiles...The second ship, the Exetas, is coming in from farther away from one of our other development lab-systems...

[taalismn]

Ah...and the Majestic? Lives up to its name...Friendly competition aside, I'm liking the different approaches here...

[taalismn]

Yeah...what's important is that we're creating a body of work so that when people say 'are there any other starship designs for Three Galaxies(or other MDC setting) out there?'...we can just drop the heavy multi-volume set of them in front of them and say "sure, here's some right here!"

[glitterboy2098]

(i'm Pming my scorings to Aramanthus, here is the IC treatment)


Majestic heavy cruiser

"a most impressive vessel, mr. Darklord. and a very good presentation too, i might add. particularly the use of sound effects in the presentation to liven up the lack of sound in vacuum.
looking at the specifications, i find this a rather effective vessel, although it does have it's drawbacks. the sublight acceleration and supralight speed are excellent, many Consortium and Kreeghor vessels will have a hard time catching it. in terms of armament, very effective. i particulalry like how the anti-ship cruise missile batteries and the anti-fighter light missiles arrays were combined into a single emplacement. very efficent use of space. obviously it will suffer slightly against prescision attacks, but that is a minor trade off. the redundant power source for the main lasers is a neat quirk, but i wonder about how wise it is to connect only the largest weapons to such a system. should the main energizers be taken out, i would suspect that the main focus of the crew would be on defense and retreat, not potshotting with a megagun. perhaps it would have been more prudent to provide that redundant energy system to the controls, sensors, main drives, heavy lasers, and gravitic autocannons, so that the vessel could successfully limp away from battle, or continue to fight in a reduced state until damage control teams can get the mains back on line. i also question the use of manual gunnery crews on the defensive autocannon mounts. while manual gunnery makes a good back up system, the high relative speeds of starfighters or anti-ship ordenance makes such methods less than effective. a remote operated system slaved to a combat computer and operated from the bridge battlecenter and with a redundant local control would have been more practical.
the sensor array is an impressive one, in fact i would have expected to see the like on an explorer vessel instead of a cruiser. it certainly provides an edge to the vessel most other ships will lack, but the unreliability makes it a double edged sword.
what else can i say? ,,,, the embarked compliment is decent, but i would have preferred to see fewer starfighters included. that space would be better served carrying dropshuttles to deploy the marine contingent. and speaking of the marines, this vessel would benefit from a platoon or two of non-battlearmor troops in addition to the battlearmored unit, perhaps with a few integral light vehicles with anti-tank weaponry instead of some of the piloted robots. combined with the dropshuttles, a company of such mechanized marines would allow the vessel to more effectively defend a colony, board pirate or smuggler vessels, or deploy strike forces for raids. all of which are duties cruisers are often called on to perform.
in summary, this ship is rather good, although it's odd design choices detract somewhat from the overall effect. with a bit more research into working out the bugs in that sensor array, and a few alterations to the defensive armaments and ships compliment, this would be a very effective member of most star navies."


Gigasaur multi-role attack cruiser
"now this vessel is definately a unique entry. a 'multi-role attack cruiser' seems to be a contradiction in terms, but semantics aside, it does seem to do a sufficent job explaining this vessel. it appears that the WZ/ATD engineers decided to go the 'pocket battleship' route with this entry, pushing the cruiser classification to the limit. the heavy beam weapon and the heavy railgun forward give it very potent firepower, although not quite as potent as some of it's competitors. and in terms of point defense...by thor this thing is good. twenty nine defensive compound turrets each packing an anti-fighter railgun and a light missile battery? i pity any starfighter pilot who tries to close with this thing. the one disadvantage is the shorter range of these weapons, but the zone of death those turrets can put out makes standing off and volleying cruise missiles and heavy missiles at range a mostly ineffective tactic. this is definately one of those vessels you want to engage with big direct fire weapons.
the onboard compliment is reasonable, but still a bit too heavily canted towards fighters for my taste. additional dropshuttles and marines would be very useful, for reasons i've stated before. the ability to deploy units of ground pounders is probably one of the most useful tools a cruiser can have, since they are far more likely to be called in to investigate colonies, fight off insurgencies, or board oppossing vessels and stations than engage in a straight up fight.
as with most WZ/ATD designs, this vessel carries a unique technological gadget. sometimes i wonder if their engineering department doesn't think up the gadgets first, then design the ships around them! in this case, the gadget is a rear mounted distorsion field. while it makes tailgating this ship a bit less attractive, especially when combined with the aft railgun, i think it fails as a useful feature. something like that should have been deployed omnidirectionally, giving it protection all-round. with proper tactics the aft of the vessel is unlikely to be endangered, and it definately does not seem to be much more vulnerable than a typical vessels engine systems.
all in all this ship is on par with most heavy cruisers, despite its size. it's firepower is below par against it's peers, but it's defensive array is top notch, and it's onboard compliment, while a bit over focused on space combat, is decent. eliminate the superflulous distorsion field and the rather unnessicary cosmetic work and this would be a vessel most navies would not mind spending its gross national product on."


OOC: both are very good designs, and each has unique flaws and problems. the above is to point out said flaws and problems, as i see them. consider it useful advice when designing future ships, even if you choose to ignore it to make a more characterful ship
one thing i have to point out though is that darkmax's ships rarely fit into canon phase world without some tweaking of the speeds.

[glitterboy2098]

actually these monologs just address the ships themselves, pointing out strengths and weaknesses. the judging takes much more into account.

and i tried not to favor either one. frankly, both ships are very good, and both have their flaws. el magico definately put more effort into his fluff, but that doesn't really effect the scoring much.

[glitterboy2098]

hhmm.... btw, GB, the speed within limit this time?... Just in case you wondering, I don't have my books and Taalismn wasn't able to come up with the rest of the stats. I did all that stats in under 6 hours...

the STL speed was the only real thing that didn't mesh with normal phase world. mach 25 is faster than the fastest canon starfighter. most phase world capital ships run about mach 10, tops. but IIRC, your ships tend to move faster, since taalismn, like myself, prefers a bit more "beleivable" speeds for our space ships.

while it lost you a point in the scoring, it really isn't a big deal. i tried to not penalize what were obviously house rules too much. mostly the point lost was because you couldn't just drop it into a standard game unadjusted.

[Aramanthus]

Hmmm officially I am truly impressed by what both of you came up with in one week. It truly speaks of both of your talents as artist and writters. This contest test the mettle of the contestants to the maximum capablities. I have looked at both vessels. I have read each entry. I have reviewed my fellow judges post both private and publically stated. I will now give my review of each vessel. And after I am finished I'll post my score and my fellow judges score and award the winner. This is very tough as both of you exceeded yourselves in this creative effort which I hope will continue several times a year and expand with new contributors to add depth and more material for every GM out there who runs Phase World.

Majestic Heavy Cruiser
Representation: 22. She is a well groomed vessel. Very nice fluff! And I agree with my cojudge the art is very good.
Functionality: 20. I like the choice of weapons. Although without the marine complement the Majestic would be unable to perform her full range of duties required of her.
Oringinality: 21. It works well in the Phase world setting. And I also see the Star Trek influence in her lines. Don't get me wrong she has some very nice lines. But I know from reading other works like Honor Harrington who relies on drones and their like as a possible influence here at this point.
Coolness: 22. I agree with my fellow judge that even despite it's flaws I'd have no problem using this ship in the Phase World setting. I think she's a great ship. Beautifully done!

Total: 85


Gigasaur Multi-Role Attack Cruiser
Representation: 23. At first glance this ship can really give you quite a scare. It does look fearsome at first glance.
Functionality: 19. She has some very nice features. Just not a lot of secondary weapons for something of her size and capability. She does have an impressive amount of anti-fighter and anti-power armor firepower. And I agree about her being more of a pocket battleship with her main weapons. It carries quite a few fighters and power armor. She also lacks a marine complement and would be unable to fulfill her cruiser duty.
Originality: 22. She looks and feel perfectly at home in the Phase World setting. And her main weapon is something I agree (with my fellow judge) does harken back to the sources like Robotech and Space Battleship Yamato. This is something that rarely if ever shows up in the setting. I see a ship that is equpped like mine when it comes to point defense levels.
Coolness: 21. It looks very menacing. And I think it does have some very cool features. I would use it in my game as a ship the players are stationed on. I agree with my fellow judge that this ship could be more than a little rough on any players going up against it.

Total: 85


My fellow judge sent his totals and they were as follows.

Majestic Heavy Cruiser Total: 76

Gigasaur Multi-Role Attack Cruiser Total: 76

We have a tie. I think all of the participants went well above and beyond for this contest. I'm not really sure how people really want to break it. I'm hoping that we can see this event played out several times a years for various classes and devices. And hopefully we can draw upon more people willing to participate in future.


My fellow judge posted his totals.

Majestic Heavy Cruiser
Representation: 20. well presented, neat fluff, art is good.
Functionality: 16. the choice of weapons and systems are good, but have some flaws that detract from its abilities. it is overly geared towards straight up combat, at the expense of the flexibility a cruiser needs to fulfill all the duties it would be called on to do.
Originality: 18. a decently orginal design, for phase world, mostly due to its special sensor array and deployable sensor drones. those are a bit too heavily influenced by star trek perhaps, but are fairly unique in the setting. otherwise it is not much different from a typical three galaxies design.
Coolness: 22. despite its flaws (and in part because of them), i'd definately try to use this in a phase world game. this would make a good ship for star trek influenced games, and it's flaws make it more interesting to roleplay.

total: 76


Gigasaur multi-role attack cruiser
Representation: 18. it looks good, but the 'fearsome' cosmetic work and over-use of glows makes it look a bit like something out of "pimp my starship". as this is a darkmax style trait, i only counted off points for the "eyes".
Functionality: 18. for its size, it's rather undergunned for anti-ship work, and it carries just a tad too many powered armor and fighters. it needs more conventional marines and shuttles to delpoy them, a ship that size should be able to carry a company, if not two, of non-battlearmor troops.
Originality: 22. this ship is more definately original for phase world. the use of the heavy beam gun harkens back to sources like robotech or Space battleship yamato, and rarely shows up in phase world. the almost excessive point defense is a trait you rarely see as well, usually phase world ships are rather undergunned to defend themselves against fighters and missiles. and despite the poor placement of the distorsion field, it is a very unique element.
Coolness: 18. while it looks cool and has some neat features, it is very hard to use in a game. the strong point defense makes it hard for most player groups to engage it, as they are likely to be piloting powered armor, robots, or fighters against it. the ship would make a good "final boss" type encounter, or be a good objective for a more covert campaign, say a commando raid to steal one, but for most campaings it would be just too lethal.

total: 76

[KLM]

A few details:

Majestic:
Weigh: missing. Comparing her dimensions to the Warshield I would
guess somewhere in the 120-170.000 ton range. So...?

Fighter wing: "10 robot vehicles"... Is it 10 Battlerams (200 metric ton each) or
10 Titan Scouts (a "measly" 10 ton each)?

Price: Market or manufacturer's price?

----
Gigasaur:
Shield: 10K per side is 60K total, not 120K

Main guns: While their range exceeds battleship and dread main guns,
their rate of fire is way below 3 galactic standards ("normal" RoF is 2 per
melee, ie. 8 per minute).

Life pods: Are your aware, that they only carry about the half of the standard
crew?

Price: Again, market or manufacturer's price?

Adios
KLM

[taalismn]

Marines would serve as shipboard security, ideally, though in a 'repel boarders' situation, any sailor not engaged in damage control or other vital functions would be called upon, and trained, in defense of the ship...
Marines would also act to board targets like other spacecraft/ships, spacestations, and venture ashore/on planet to reconnoiter and perform odd jobs like escorting civilians to safety, raiding insurgent hideouts, and the like...

Most Line of Battle vessels in organizations likely wouldn't carry a Marine force, unless part of their duty required the above as part of regular operations...the debate would be between either posting a handful of highly skilled professionals and specialists aboard ship on the offhand chance that the Battleship MIGHT need somebody to go planetside....and hope that the handful of guys are up to the task...or have dedicated Marine transports attached to a taskgroup or squadron that the capital ships are escorting/escorted by...and let the larger number of Marines do their job....

[Aramanthus]

Well, I'm looking forward to the next contest of Iron Engineers. This first contest produced some truly excellent designs.

Actually in our cruisers they probably don't carry more than a platoon during peace time situations. They don't list them in the overall crew seperately. I checked. But during wartime, expect a larger group to be present. Unless the cruiser is required to be present in a fleet situation, most cruisers will operate on their own. In peace time expect the cruiser to carry out many missions. Including showing the flag at ports o call that might be not exactly friendly with the government who owns the cruiser. During peace time both of your cruisers would probably be home to no more than a platoon of marines. In a war footing situation they might carry up to a company. Of course missions will influence exactly what sort of marine complement you'd have aboard. So if the cruiser was on an anti-piracy mission she might have the company of marines. Of course the location of the mission might also influence the number of marines on board. Dangerous areas might be enough for the command to require her to have a full company. Just my thoughts on it.

[KLM]

Actually in our cruisers they probably don't carry more than a platoon during peace time situations.

If your mean by "our cruisers" the contemporary US warships, this is probably right.

After all, if a ship is to search a civilian vessel, today a dozen or so armed
soldiers are enough, and sending reinforcements can be done within days,
one or two turns by a helicopter and it is done.

In the 3 galaxies, however... Even civilian ships are armed. Some "civilians" are
more dangerous NAKED than our best power armor. So...

Adios
KLM

[Aramanthus]

I was talking about our worlds modern navies. And I do agree with what you said KLM about Phase Worldin being far more dangerous then here.

[Aramanthus]

Look at the previous post. There is plenty of information added today.

[KLM]

but at present, US armed forces are also on high alert, not exactly peace time, no?

Actually, for the most part of the 20th century, there _was_ war somewhere.

-------
As for marines:
1, Law enforcement onboard. Even truely volunteer crews riot
sometimes... And TGE crews aren't neccessarily "true volunteers".

2, Security. Ugglies, vampires, magic users, demons, shapechangers,
whatever...

3, Searching vessels. Not neccessarily friendly, like ancient abandoned
hulks, space stations, colonies, whatnot.

4, A captain of a warship is a bit akin to an ambassador. Or there is
an assigned dignitary in case of starships...
Therefore he needs protection while performing diplomatic duty.

5, Boarding vessels - straightforward combat. This can be done
after the target is criplled by the warship's weaponry or done
by the fashion of navy seals swimming to a ship, climb up and
then shoot the crew.

6, Enforcing national interests - be it the evacuation of CCW citizens,
or debt collection by NE. Providing humanitarian aid counts into this
category.

Adios
KLM

[Aramanthus]

I would sayu that a company of marines would be sufficent for the cruisers. Make it around 160 to 200.

[KLM]

Specforces: yes
covert ops: no.

What might mislead you ,was the mentioning of
boarding by scuba...

In the 3 galaxies, probably power armors, like the Silverhawk
are used - or magical or phase-tech teleportation. It is a
sneak/stealth attack, however, the attackers ARE identifiable
as - say, for example - CAF personell, so it is not a covert ops
by definition.

Adios
KLM

[glitterboy2098]

that is a large number of personnel who specialize in covert op.

not covert specialists. "marine" in this context is in the vein of the original definition.

if you want covert ops, you bring in special forces units. marine units are just normal ground pounders trained to operate on and from ships. 'naval infantry' in a sense, although in phase world most would be equipped with at least light vehicles (APC's or Styker equivilents), and a few piloted robots.

a cruiser needs marines more than a destroyer, a frigate, a carrier, or a battleship. those are "ships of the line", and usually don't operate much independantly. they usually are part of a larger task force or fleet. and if a task force needs marine ground support for a mission, they'll usually bring along a dedicated marine transport. otherwise they'll have a pplatoon or two (perhaps a company for really big ships) for onboard security and to give a modicum of ability to do boardings or inspections.

a cruiser, since it tends to operate alone or as the head of a smaller task force of light ships, needs to be able to carry a large enough marine force to handle, at least minimally, with any ground mission it is likely to be called apon to do, since it is less likely a cruiser will have a marine transport attached to it. the good news is that if its expected ot be a big ground mission (needing more than a company), command will usually just dispatch a marine transport with escorts instead of calling in the smaller units of a cruiser. so generally cruiser berthed marines will see "go check on the Lv-426 colony" type missions, or protecting of small outposts, anti-pirate missions, and other small unit roles. a company or demi-company (a 2-3 platoons of normal marines, a platoon or two of PA, some light vehicles and/or robots, with dropshuttles) is usually all you need.

[glitterboy2098]

hmm.. much like an away team

not really. think more like the unit of Colonial marines from aliens...

[taalismn]

In such cases, the Marines would be the most heavily armed personnel aboard their ships...which would make any Navy crewmember who's familiar with the dangers of explosive decompression(and they ALL get to see the 'snuff flick' on Orientation Day about what happens to dimwits who don't practice proper SPLS-Sudden Pressure Loss Scenario- drill) rather nervous when the Marines start playing with the weapon safeties...

[KLM]

Actually, with the numerous phase and magic powers aviable, I would
place them on strategic locations (on duty), like bridge, engineering,
ammo storage, life support, etc.

However, I would invest into self-sealing hulls, redundant systems (which
are also handy when someone shoots the ship from the outside)
short-range, powerfull yet reasonably "ship-friendly" weapons
(phase beamers for example) and of course training.
---------------------------------

As for shuttles: the archetipical dropship (high speed descent, brick,
slowly climbing out of the gravity well) is frankly just a space opera
staple IMO.
Most of the mission profiles, only a small force is to be inserted,
and I preferably would land them away from the target area,
and let them move in, hugging the terrain. For this purpose, they
need either power armor or other vehicles or... Well, why not use
the landing ship - for example the "Typical runner ship" or the
Scimitar both seem to be rather good in atmospheric performance,
and can carry a reasonable marine force.

On dedicated planetary invasion vehicles - of course - there is a
place for large troop capacity "landing bricks".

Adios
KLM

[taalismn]

Partial or fully 'throwaway' shuttles/landing craft...but only if you're reasonably sure that you're not going to need to get back off in a hurry...Otherwise, you're like the paratroopers and glider commandos at Normandy...effectively committed once you're down to fighting your way back out...

[glitterboy2098]

That was what I was going for with the number of marines on the Majestic.
I gave it 60 marines, 10 of whom would be in PA. I thought that was a lot for a ship with a crew of only 400, and almost dropped it down lower.

i don't remember seeing an entry for the number of non-BA marines, which is why i felt i needed to mention them.

Partial or fully 'throwaway' shuttles/landing craft...but only if you're reasonably sure that you're not going to need to get back off in a hurry...Otherwise, you're like the paratroopers and glider commandos at Normandy...effectively committed once you're down to fighting your way back out...

the Colonial Marine Technical Manual (hmm..i really need to buy a new copy..) had single person re-entry capsules for that. a single marine in a combat pressure suit, inside a one man capsule, 'fired' from the orbiting ship. capsule protects the trooper from the re-entry, then comes apart in mid air where the trooper floats down in a HALO or HAHO parachute jump.

sort of like Heinlein's Starship Troopers, just without powered armor.


for phase world, we can suppose a related system for both PA and pressure suited troops. use an IRDT style inflatable heat shield on the back or a GE Life Raft style rigid shield. eject the troops in low orbit, and they re-enter and then parachute (or fly if so equipped) to the target zone...

[taalismn]

for phase world, we can suppose a related system for both PA and pressure suited troops. use an IRDT style inflatable heat shield on the back or a GE Life Raft style rigid shield. eject the troops in low orbit, and they re-enter and then parachute (or fly if so equipped) to the target zone...

Yep...Extreme skill Parachuting....

[Aramanthus]

I think that most cruisers that have their complement of marines would have an extensive arsenal for those marines. That way the marines would be equiped with whatever weapons were needed for whatever operation would be needed. Including weapons for repelling boarders. Weapons that wouldn't necessarily penetrate their hulls. But I suppose whatever they are facing would determine the weapon selection for the mission.

As for covert ops. I would say El Magico's ship would make a great launch point for a covert ops. So would a smugglers ship which is owned by a power blocks intelligence organizations.

[KLM]

I think that most cruisers that have their complement of marines would have an extensive arsenal for those marines.

I think if even the ST Federation starships had enough phasers for every crewmember
(and except Q, there were no such threats like phase tech and magic teleportation)
it is not a bad idea.

Considering, that the CAF uniform pajama is an EBA, albeit a rather low grade one.

Adios
KLM