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I'd say yes to both, but they're more limited in applications...and tend to use the ability sparingly to maintain an elite and loyal edge....

I just don't see science and technology as Kreghorian (?) aptitudes.

Hell, they couldn't even come up with a computer virus until they brought the Dark Tribe Wulfen onboard. Whatever else they can do would be stuff left over from the good 'ol Splugorth days.

I have to agree with Taalismn on this one. Because they do have various starships. Including the Doombringer, which is nothing to sneeze at. Although they do have a limited number of them.

They do have a vast population to draw upon. Sort of like China and India.

I know they do have that vast population. That is the reason I said it.

A few points to toss in:

Eugenics-like upgrades are rather useless on the Kreeghor, since the were already "souped up"
by their former master.

The rather high mortality rate of the Guard programme does not bother much
the Kreeghor, since it is not neccessary for the Royal Kreeghors and others
are just... statitics.

Adios
KLM

I have to agree that you hit it right on the head with that statement about the Kreeghor not caring about the cost.

gadrin wrote:I know you scaled back the Invincible Guardsmen in your games (or mentioned it once...

Yeah. I let them do things like up their physical stats, because I always figured that they were using a spare transmutation tank or two... plus, I was really uncomfortable with "super powers" in a space opera setting (but not so much magic, oddly). No Guardsmen turing to stone or fire or whatnot in my games

As for the ships of the Kreeghor, keep in mind that these are the same guys who atacked the Wulfen Empire 1000 years ago with nothing but Smasher destroyers (a frigate-sized vessel) and Flying Fangs. After the four Dark Tribes joined in with them, they eventually started building cruisers... but even then they scrapped all the confiscated Hunters and the stealth systems attached thereto.

The Kreeghor have been genetically hardwired to fight. That's their nature, because they were made to be a (somewhat self-sufficient) minion warrior species. Like the Zentraedi from Robotech, let's say... they might be able to maintain their weapons and equipment and call those that do so a "scientist", but it seems that they only grow in both capabilites and ideas when other species are added into their midst.

In the TGE, it's actually the Wulfen who are the planners, forward-thinkers, and inovators, even though they themselves are subserviant to the Kreeghor.

One final thing of note: there are three races in the Phase World setting (the Oni, the T'Zee, and the Republican Wulfen) who have mastered what we might call "uber nano-tech", and all of them are members of the Consortium. This cannot be a coincidence, and it is my firm belief that the CCW has a policy of not allowing such technology fall into Kreeghor hands.

Braden Campbell wrote:
I was really uncomfortable with "super powers" in a space opera setting (but not so much magic, oddly).

Same here

As for the ships of the Kreeghor, keep in mind that these are the same guys who atacked the Wulfen Empire 1000 years ago with nothing but Smasher destroyers (a frigate-sized vessel) and Flying Fangs.

Hmm... The Berserker is the only canon frigate of the TGE, the Smashers are cruisers. I do not think
that those designs were aviable a millenia ago, since they are built on those organic hulls, which
might not been aviable then.

But the bottom line stands: they won.

In the TGE, it's actually the Wulfen who are the planners, forward-thinkers, and inovators, even though they themselves are subserviant to the Kreeghor.

Mind you, the Kreeghor do have real, superhuman intelligence...
...as their master

Which again perfectly fits the scheme: The Dweller (for most being in the Galaxies this means the Emperor)
comes up with some long range plans, and the Wulfen and the Monro do the details, Royal Kreeghor get
the applaude.

One final thing of note: there are three races in the Phase World setting (the Oni, the T'Zee, and the Republican Wulfen) who have mastered what we might call "uber nano-tech", and all of them are members of the Consortium. This cannot be a coincidence, and it is my firm belief that the CCW has a policy of not allowing such technology fall into Kreeghor hands.

Machine People, anyone?

Adios
KLM

KLM wrote:

Braden Campbell wrote:

As for the ships of the Kreeghor, keep in mind that these are the same guys who atacked the Wulfen Empire 1000 years ago with nothing but Smasher destroyers (a frigate-sized vessel) and Flying Fangs.

Hmm... The Berserker is the only canon frigate of the TGE, the Smashers are cruisers. I do not think
that those designs were aviable a millenia ago, since they are built on those organic hulls, which
might not been aviable then.

Sorry, yes. I meant Berserker.

Machine People, anyone?

Yup. The Consortium blew it big time by not allowing them to become full members (which only came about, as you will read in Fleets of the Three Galaxies, because the Human Alliance hates all manner of "thinking machines", and blocked their entry into the CCW). It will also be revealed that the Machine People designed the massive new Contra-gravity drives that allowed for monsterous starships like the Doombringer-series.

el magico -- darklorddc wrote: I think to "dumb down" the Kreeghor as a species would neuter them from believable foe to the CCW, to bumbling Klingon-esque enemies with more guns than brains.
Remember that they switched gears from conquerers to expansionists and do, in fact, show some political savvy. I'd hate to see them go the way of cookie cutter star trek villian race.

You make some very valid arguments here, my friend, and in large part, I agree. I guess what I'm saying both here and in my manuscripts is that certain concepts were beyond the Kreeghor until they were stolen from absorbed species... because their brains are different than ours. Take fleet composition as an example. 1000 years ago the Kreeghor used overwhelming numbers and "shock and awe" because it always worked out well for them in the past and was a hold-over from their days as Splugorthian minions. After the conquest of (half of) the Wulfen Empire, once they saw how effective a mixed fleet of fighters, destroyers and cruisers could be, they started building cruisers.They emulated the tactics and thinking of the Dark Tribe Wulfen... which wasn't hard for them since they are as smart or smarter than an average Human, once they stole the idea to do so.

The same goes for diplomacy. It wasn't even a concept for the Kreeghor until their defeat in the Great War... because they had never lost a fight until then. If you've never gone into treaty negotiations, how do you do it? You turn to your Wulfen (ie. Roman politicians) and either ask them for help (which might be seen as a sign of weakness) or more likely order them to take your place at the discussion table. This is self-limiting of the Kreeghor and kind of ironic, since with an MA of 3D6+3, a Royal Kreeghor is several times more savy than the craftiest Wulfen.

It's not that they're dullards. Far from it. But the Kreeghor have built a society around themselves based on dominatiuon and superiority, which tends to mean that they give the orders, take the credit, but do little of the heavy lifting anymore. So, to outsiders, it does appear that they are just a bunch of dumb bullies.

Aramanthus wrote:I have to agree with Taalismn on this one. Because they do have various starships. Including the Doombringer, which is nothing to sneeze at. Although they do have a limited number of them.

That's because, in spite of their hundreds of planets, they've got plausibly limited resources unlike the CS...

el magico -- darklorddc wrote:

Vrykolas2k wrote:

Aramanthus wrote:I have to agree with Taalismn on this one. Because they do have various starships. Including the Doombringer, which is nothing to sneeze at. Although they do have a limited number of them.

That's because, in spite of their hundreds of planets, they've got plausibly limited resources unlike the CS...

I'd be willing to bet that if you added every skelebot and samas in storage together that they'd out weigh most of the combined CCW's eight fleets.

I don't know about that, but you'd prolly be able to make a couple of Packmasters, with possibly some fighters as well.

Actually I was referrring to limited number of Doombringers. As far as their resources.....I"d say you could say they have a near unlimited set of resources. Considering they can draw from at least 3 to 5000 solar systems. That makes for a lot of resources.

That is true. Except for the fact that PB put that number in their entry in the second sourcebook.

Aramanthus wrote:Actually I was referrring to limited number of Doombringers. As far as their resources.....I"d say you could say they have a near unlimited set of resources. Considering they can draw from at least 3 to 5000 solar systems. That makes for a lot of resources.

Yes, but then you have to consider the size of the things, nae to mention man-power to build them... they have a logical number.
As opposed to a million SAMAS in storage...

That is very true Vrykolas2k. I see the point you are making. I just see it a little differently. But that is perfectly fine with the way Phase World and other PB books are set up!

I can see that the Kreeghor have an astronomical number of people within their own sphere of influence. They have proportionally that much more than the CS that it's not funny. You have to think that they draw upon every entire solar systems they control. They probably have storage facilities which would be proportional to the CS, just sized up to match the vast resources they can draw upon for their empire.

el magico -- darklorddc wrote: I think to "dumb down" the Kreeghor as a species would neuter them from believable foe to the CCW, to bumbling Klingon-esque enemies with more guns than brains.
(...)
(I'm supposed to believe Klingons invented their own warp drive? OOOooooookay....)

Agreed.

As a side note those aliens were smart enough to trade warp drive with the Romulans for cloaking
technology and together they forced the Federation to sign a treaty which forbid the development
and use of cloaking.
Frankly aggressiveness has nothing to do with IQ...

As for the exact number of Doombringers: they might hint that they have at least 23 ones.
While the Doombringers - as well as several, if not most Palladium machines - do need a serious upping
in stats, to be able to perform the tasks they hinted to be able in their flavor text... So even with
that declaring that "We have 23 of them" makes a good point in any negotiation.

Adios
KLM

That is another great observation KLM. Like the cold war. We have this many of this particular vessel/ weapon system, but in reality they might have double or triple that number.

Actually, even during the darkest days of Cold War, the sides had a rough estimate
about their opposition's forces.

What's more...

I think both the - for example - French and the Royal Navy knew the exact number
of their ships of the line with less time lag, than it takes to build such a ship.
Frigates might not have been all accounted, and the exact capabilities of ships also
might be hazy.

For example the fact, that the Yamato (and her sister ship) carried 460mm guns
was unknown till the end of WWII.

And now someone will charge me with worshipping Tojo...

The reason for this is simple: any self-respecting power block has several agents
watching their potential enemies' everyday. Do not think about Bond, James Bond
style superspies: just an average bartender for example, who sometimes sends
a report about what ships's crew had shore leave in his establishment.

Nothing illegal, yet if those tiny data fragments are collected, one can get a rather
clear picture.

Adios
KLM

Corkscrew Galaxy will be all about this exact kind of stuff, detailing the Cold War and espionage side of the CCW/TGE rivalry. But don't expect it any time this year...

Darkmax wrote:Thanks KLM...

And Braden, you must work faster!

I know you're kidding but let's see. In the past year I have written:
* 2 short stories for the upcoming 'Burbs anthology
* 2 adventures for the yet-to-be-seen downloadable adventures section
* Thundercloud Galaxy
* 3 Rifter articles
* all the final edits for Fleets of the Three Galaxies
* a Rifter Swimsuit babe

that just leaves me:
* parts 3 and 4 of the Wormwood Addenda (both are more than half done already)
* United Worlds of Warlock (most of which is penciled in)
* a babe for Rifter #43

All in all, I'd say I've had a pretty productive year. Now, if only this mountain of work would see print so I can get paid...

Braden Campbell wrote:

Darkmax wrote:Thanks KLM...

And Braden, you must work faster!

I know you're kidding but let's see. In the past year I have written:
* 2 short stories for the upcoming 'Burbs anthology
* 2 adventures for the yet-to-be-seen downloadable adventures section
* Thundercloud Galaxy
* 3 Rifter articles
* all the final edits for Fleets of the Three Galaxies
* a Rifter Swimsuit babe

that just leaves me:
* parts 3 and 4 of the Wormwood Addenda (both are more than half done already)
* United Worlds of Warlock (most of which is penciled in)
* a babe for Rifter #43

All in all, I'd say I've had a pretty productive year. Now, if only this mountain of work would see print so I can get paid...

That's IT?!
Geez, I'm creating an entire RPG...

Very nice set of material coming out soon Braden! I can't wait to see it all in print!

As to the Kreeghor Invincible Guard, I think the inspiration/reference is the Shiar's Imperial Guard from X-Men comics/the Legion of Super-heros (but evil) from DC. Neither of those are genetically engineered into existence, but superheroes in space opera is hardly a new idea.

It's not quite a necro-post, but I guess it's close.

Don't worry Josh didn't see it! So no bullet to the head of the thread, yet! I agree with you points. I've read the same books.