Thoughts on the Trans-Galactic Empire

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glitterboy2098
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Thoughts on the Trans-Galactic Empire

Unread post by glitterboy2098 »

KLM wrote:
As a side note: if someone devotes time and effort
for a likeminded extrapolation of the TGE, CCW, Sploogies,
UWW, FWC, CA, altess Dynasty, you name it...

Palladium gave this kind of attention to the CS, see
WB11: Coalition War Campaign, which reulted in
one of my favourite World Book.


this was a comment by KLM in his quite wonderful look at the Golgan military.

now, i have not done as extensive a job, but i do have a few thoughts on the Trans-Galatic Empire that might serve as the spark of a larger discussion. they were ideas i had awhile back when i was trying to figure out what kinds of metaplot i wanted to use should i ever do a phaseworld game. as it turns out, i could figure out metaplot easily enough. it was normal adventure plot i had trouble writing..

keep in mind, these might be counter to canon, i wasn't paying too much attention to the canon at the time, what little there is.


i see the TGE as having multiple great Kreeghor houses, of which the imperial house is only one of. and within each House, there are multiple family lines. loyalty is to Family, house, and empire. in roughly that order. thus TGE politics is a mess of secret deals, house alliances, Nepotism, and backstabbing. all the houses and families are required to pledge fealty to the imperial family (specifically the position of the emperor [but not the individual]), which is the only way the imperial family manages to keep the rest under control. a member of a family going against the interests of the imperial family (IE: the intrests of the TGE) will bring down extensive harm on his family, including censure, loss of title, loss of lands, ect.

while only the Imperial house has power over the fleet (in theory), most of the commanders of the fleet come from non-imperial families (done to keep the other families happy). this of course is why the TGE will not trust any one commander with too much of the fleet. if a single officer gains direct command over enough of the military, he could stage a coup against the imperial family. so the imperial family makes sure that there is no clear cut command structure (except on a time by time basis) and that no one house has a majority of officers when a larger fleet has to be called. of course, each family usually has a corps of "house guard" which is a military in all but name. but generally they are kept in check by various imperial decrees to limit the size of bodyguard units and such, so the houses are not a direct threat to the fleet. (in theory the TTGE fleet is the "Imperial House Guard", but leadership issues make that less than certain...)

each house is generally interested in expanding it's power. either by getting its members into important positions, obtaining consessions and debts from other houses, or aquiring new holdings in which to demand tribute, adding to it's wealth and thus allowing it to do the former two items. of course, the imperial family cannot let any one house gain too many holding so they use imperial decrees every so often to give certain long held and loyal family holdings as "favored partners", members of the TGE and able to join it's military and civil service organizations, and governed by Kreeghor appointed by the imperial family (and whose taxes go to the imperial family). thus the imperial family prevents any single house or family from gaining too much economic power (also opens up plenty of minor government official positions for the houses to compete over..)

of course this make the TGE a very unstable political enviroment, part of the reason it is so dangerous. it has to constantly expand to keep it's houses from starting up a multi-faction civil war, and it can't trust it's members to not violate any agreements made (which is why all Kreeghor diplomates are of the imperial family...thus all treaties are of the emperor, and thus if broken will bring ruin onto the family of the person breaking it.)



in terms of military strategy...the kreeghor still prefer their "swarm" mentality. the majority of the TGE fleet is destroyer and Cruiser sized vessels. Battleships and Dreadnaughts are rare. the TGE has no dedicated Carriers, using their fighters in a more defensive way, as interceptors and escorts of the warships, tasked with protecting the warships from the attack fighers of the CCW and most other adjacent star-nations. non-kreeghor aren't trusted in fighters, and for Kreeghor pilots, the desire to keep a close watch on members of rival families creates an atmosphere where individual heroism is considered suspicious. thus fighter pilots are kept to a limited and mostly undesirable role. (on the otherhand, commanders of a ship can usually get away with such. it's only the desire of ship commanders to control subordinates that keeps the TGE fighter corps from really coming into it's own.)

tactics wise the TGE tends to be a mess. with no clear chain of command, the TGE's fleets tend to operate as a collection of semi-independant sub-fleets. which is why the TGE's policy is of overwhelming force in all conflicts. if they cannot get at least a 4 to 1 advantage in strength, they will likely not attempt a direct conflict. in terms of covert actions, usually the representative of the imperial family (the closest thing to a leader most fleets have) assigns specific targets and tasks, and lets the commanders of those fleets figure out how to accomplish it. this is actually the houses preferred means of conflict. it is the imperial family that divvies up the spoils. a straight up fight usually sees less per family, since so many will be involved. but in small unit actions, there will be only a handful of families involved in the capture of targets, and thus the rewards will be greater.
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Re: Thoughts on the Trans-Galactic Empire

Unread post by Aramanthus »

That does make a lot of sense. Sort of like the Centauri from Babylon 5. Since their empire is sort of like that. Not quite but very similiar. I like it. It would explain a few things. Although I like the things Kitsune created for them. And yet even that still fits within what you suggested in your theorum above.
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Re: Thoughts on the Trans-Galactic Empire

Unread post by KLM »

Nice.

But - as You expected - it is clearly counters canon.

However, there are only a few points I would change it to be more in line with
the "Holy Official Stuff".

Adios
KLM
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Re: Thoughts on the Trans-Galactic Empire

Unread post by KLM »

Kreeghors.
They are a warrior race, with 10.000 year tradition of conquest and violence.


Not much remains from the period before that. Nor Kreeghors had writing as such, nor the Splugorth
intervention left much from the original Kreeghor-Tet.

Some ancient exploration data indicate, that Kreeghors were nomadic tribes, with a language
consisting about a hundred words and using crude bone tools. About the same time humans
arrived to Terra Prime, a Splugorth Intelligence took interest of the Kreeghors and begun
experimenting with them.

TGE historians often forgot, that the appearance of Royal Kreeghors, the following destruction
of their master was less, than 4000 years ago,
as currently the fourth Emperor reigns
, in the
fourth millenia of the Kreeghor Dominium and the TGE. This means that for every year of glorious
Kreeghor expansion, almost two years fall as being slaves to the Almighty Eye.

And for that cca. 6000 years, kreeghor served their master well, a testimony to the
superhuman intellect and organisation of the late Sploog Intelligence, because the
current society of the TGE's master race is still very much

When their revolution happened, the Royal Kreeghors, with the lead of the first Emperor-to-be,
found themselves to be the rulers of a hefty Dominion, with hundreds of colonies and conquered
planets and several other slave races (now serving them).

To be continued.

Adios
KLM
But still, one of the most basic rules for survival on any planet is never to upset someone wearing black leather - This is why protesters against the wearing of animal skins by humans unaccountably fail to throw their paint over Hell's Angels.
- Terry Prachett

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Re: Thoughts on the Trans-Galactic Empire

Unread post by KLM »

el magico -- darklorddc wrote:I like these interpretations. Very 3-dimensional.


Thanx.

One good reason for the constant strive for expansion could be to assauge the nobility of the houses, much like the need to give young nobles land was one of the driving forces behind the Crusades.


That is one reason. Mind you, human, West-European, historical nobility
differs greatly from Royal Kreeghors.

It opens the door to lots of political in-fighting and power struggles, despite the presence of the Royal Kreeghor. Also, if nobody knows about the Dweller, then it could be that the other houses are under the ILLUSION that anyone can be Emperor, not realizing that the Dweller makes the choice.


Bet on it.

Wish I had more time...

Adios
KLM
But still, one of the most basic rules for survival on any planet is never to upset someone wearing black leather - This is why protesters against the wearing of animal skins by humans unaccountably fail to throw their paint over Hell's Angels.
- Terry Prachett

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Re: Thoughts on the Trans-Galactic Empire

Unread post by gaby »

Maybe the Dweller like it that way.

I say it,s your game,changed what you like.

Rpg is like fan-fiction,who follow canon too a point but not limited by it if you think it will make a Game better for you and the other players.
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Re: Thoughts on the Trans-Galactic Empire

Unread post by glitterboy2098 »

actually thats a good way to sum up what i was saying.

i'm still trying to figure out how what KLM quoted from the books actually invalidates anything i said...thats all history, and i was concerning myself with the political organization. which IIRC, is a pretty much empty field beyond "they have an imperial family and an emperor"

this way they're less of a two dimensional badguy.

you have a bunch of tribal groups forced to serve a outside master, then suddenly put in charge of a massive interstellar empire. it makes sense that the old tribal loyalties would not vanish, and that the cultural system that emerges is basically that tribal mentality forced into a modern setting.

the end result actually ends up with a lot of similarity to the Fuedal system in the middile ages, with a complex network of loyalties and homage. (the fuedal system was an outgrowth of tribal societies as well...particulalry the germanic tribes with a large influx of steppe 'barbarians' like the huns, and goths, intermingled with traditions from Rome..)
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Re: Thoughts on the Trans-Galactic Empire

Unread post by taalismn »

Nice...and thought provoking... :ok:
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Re: Thoughts on the Trans-Galactic Empire

Unread post by Aramanthus »

That is another set of interesting views. I like and understand both POV. I know I'm going to have to continue watching how each of you expand on your ideas. This has the potential of becoming a very intellectually stimulating discussion.
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"My Lady," the protector of Grayson told his Champion, "I do not wish him to leave this chamber alive."

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Re: Thoughts on the Trans-Galactic Empire

Unread post by KLM »

glitterboy2098 wrote:i'm still trying to figure out how what KLM quoted from the books actually invalidates anything i said...


Nothing as of yet, but I wanted to start a story from the beginning, just
the office suddenly turned into an asylium, so I didn't go to the point.

Adios
KLM
But still, one of the most basic rules for survival on any planet is never to upset someone wearing black leather - This is why protesters against the wearing of animal skins by humans unaccountably fail to throw their paint over Hell's Angels.
- Terry Prachett

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Re: Thoughts on the Trans-Galactic Empire

Unread post by KLM »

Divide et Impera.

When their revolution happened, the Royal Kreeghors, with the lead of the first Emperor-to-be,
found themselves to be the rulers of a hefty Dominion, with hundreds of colonies and conquered
planets and several other slave races (now serving them).


Also, as it was mentioned, they inherited a rather caste based society from their late master.

Kreeghor - while technically omnivores - are carnivores, predators by instinct. Documents
from their prehistoric period indicated that their "tribes" were actually more like packs,
somewhere along the lines of Earth's chimps and wolfs.

Splugorth "tinkering" put strong emphasis to encode (or rather amplify) the need
and obedience of "pecking order". It also placed several ritually restricted safety
valves to vent out the steam, therefore competition within a group was constant,
yet not self-destructive.
Kreeghors MUST have a clear "pecking order" at least in their immediate enviroment,
but once it is achieved, they strictly adhere to it, to an almost suicidal extent. (1)

All of these rules are included in a hymn-like poetry (written in an archaic variant of
Trade 4), which all subjects of the Empire must learn. The verse itself isn't too long
and the TGE officially stated that it came from the Forge as a guideline against
their slavery (so much effort is spent on keeping it in its original form).
It provides guidance for setting up the order of things, from ranking, battle, mating,
inheritance - sometimes via brutal force or even by assasination. The latter
one, while being a very popular sport in the Empire, sets such strict constrains
which almost guarantee the failure of such attempt against Royal Kreeghors,
but otherwise can be successfull.
Stepping over the Hymn has its consequences - the wrath of _THE_ Empire.(2)

It is not as chivalric, as the Wulfen code of honour, nor as ritual as the Oni "Way of
the Warrior", but works well.

However, from an objective point of wiev, it is probably the legacy of their former
master, Royal Kreeghor simply stepped in the place of Overlords.

-----

On the larger scale of things however, the small packs of Kreeghor - under Sploog rule -
grew into "proper" tribes. There are 11 "long" tribes and 6 "hard" ones. These tribes
each have their own records and rituals, spanning nearly ten millenia. (3).
On at least 15 known occasions however, tribes were artifically preserved and/or
reformed otherwise they would have been only a footnote in history.

The long ones are traditionally emphasis on quantity, the latter ones on quality.

Traditionally Longs do the conquering, Hards keep the Dominion together. However,
this is not set into stone, as things change, tribes can - and do - swift roles. With
the current uneasy peacetime, being Hards is a good idea, however, swifting roles
requires great success (or gross incompetence).

Also, Hards all have a seat in the Privy Council - however, the Emperor chooses
the exact representative (with some limitations). Longs, with satisfiing hard
requirements (including the whims of the Emperor) might earn a place
in the council, however they can send anyone they like into the Council.

About everything else is done as the current Emperor pleases (but there are
rules how and how often can His Mightiness express his will, and for that
time, that is the law, which must be kept by the Emperor himself.).

To be continued.

Adios
KLM

(1) See their ME stat. Once they decided on something it is very hard to sway them.

(2) I suggest to check WWolf's Werewolf for the Litany. Also, it might be a very
potent story element, when will be the "official" 10.000th anniversary...

(3) There are rumors about an 18th tribe, as well as remnants of the 17 tribes still
under sploog rule, somewhere in the Megaverse. Some rumors are even as wild, as
stating that the 17 tribes shaping the 3 Galaxies are actually the renegades and
minority...
But still, one of the most basic rules for survival on any planet is never to upset someone wearing black leather - This is why protesters against the wearing of animal skins by humans unaccountably fail to throw their paint over Hell's Angels.
- Terry Prachett

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Re: Thoughts on the Trans-Galactic Empire

Unread post by KLM »

The Way of the Warrior.

First, getting into power. However, getting it via force or deceit is an exception in
the latter two millenia (but since the TGE is HUGE, it happens 24/7... ).
So, one must inherit it.

The Western European feudal way, where the eldest son got everything, has its fault.
Namely, when agen became a problem. I mean when the King is expected to be crowned
at his age of 20 and to die at his age of 45, his son is also able to rule for at least
two decades before the Grim Reaper gets him.
Rulers are also forced to produce progeny ASAP, for to uphold the bloodline.

It is clear, that Royal Kreeghors are the heart of the TGE. But within their ranks,
however, there must be a meritocracy, for most of the Royals are still born as
offsprings of "common" Kreeghors, and even they can and do rise to the throne.
Emperors also traditionally favor "Freebornes" to balance with the Bloodlines.

Also,
Royals often live for over a millenia,
yet they mature and able to reproduce
in their teenage years. Now think about Prince Charles - when he inherits the throne,
he might be a senile, dying old man.
Multiply it with at least a magnitude... Waiting for like 900 years in your 1000 year
lifespan for inheriting the throne. Sure way for Cronus sindrome.

Therefore heritage is decided on two factors: first, the decision of the "boss".
Second, after a given period, the ruler of a tribe must send away his heir to be
on conquest (so he can either carve out his own realm, furthering the cause
of the Empire, or die) and take another heir under tutoring.

Adios
KLM
But still, one of the most basic rules for survival on any planet is never to upset someone wearing black leather - This is why protesters against the wearing of animal skins by humans unaccountably fail to throw their paint over Hell's Angels.
- Terry Prachett

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Re: Thoughts on the Trans-Galactic Empire

Unread post by KLM »

"On War"

Kreeghor space warfare is based on both pack mentality and individual glory. Also, since traditionally
Long tribes are the conquerors, they created fleets not unlike the ancient persian Immortals - no
matter how many you kill, they keep coming, always 10.000 in number.

Even before adopting the organic hulls, which are the trademark of the TGE today, they always
relied on vast numbers.

This is both a rather traditional Splugorth trait, both dictated by battlefield economics - small
craft are easier to produce.

Also, the planetary defense of Kreeghor-Tet was constructed primary against retaliation
by Kittannii and Kydian forces (Splugorths in short). Some elements of the said defense system
are also originate from the slavery-era, since the Alien Intelligences have a long nurtured
fondness for killing their kin.
So, for the Emperor, it was convenient to have fleets, which made large scale revolts
next to impossible and even if a charismatic leader could amass an armada, their numbers
would be decimated at the instant, they came out of FTL around Kreeghor-Tet.

As the Dominion begun to grow, however, they confronted more advanced cultures, whom
had the time and will to build larger ships in sufficient numbers and had good ideas about
how to use them effectively - and those powers also had enough planets to sacrifice for
tactical mobility.

For the tipical Kreeghor strategy was to assault targets which the enemy cannot afford
not to defend, swarm over their forces, often, but not neccessarily by means of superior
forces - kreeghors has a long earned reputation to be excellent in large scale warfare.
They several occasions defeated stronger fleets, composed of fewer, larger vessels,
by accepting losses to close in and gut their opponents craft by powerfull, but short
range attacks.
Another way was inserting ground forces on the enemy's homeworld, leaving their fleet
without bases.

However, soon they learned the hard way, that if someone afford to loose a system or
two, but amass large enough firepower than one system could possible produce can
inflict such losses on attackers, which makes victory pyrrhic or even impossible.

So, the Kreeghors then added cruisers to their assets, but the early breed of their
first ships of the line was actually adding more number to their swarms, as it is well
shown by the current Smashers and their use.

Namely, the fleet or flottila main attack stenght is a force of close range frigates,
covered and augmented by a substantial fighter force, while cruisers stand back,
and mainly provide logistic support.

Later advances in technology made it possible, that the cruise missile to became
main anti-ship weaponry of the TGE frigates, which was a huge step from previous
short-range only weaponry.

Also, the TGE finally was able to mass produce high powered, long range lasers,
which again were added as medium range weapons to augment cruise missiles
in case of frigates and in case of cruisers and above provided direct-fire long
range firepower supporting the small ships' melee.
(Long range missile attacks have their drawbacks as they give the target ample
time to evade or apply countermeasures).

To be continued...

Adios
KLM
But still, one of the most basic rules for survival on any planet is never to upset someone wearing black leather - This is why protesters against the wearing of animal skins by humans unaccountably fail to throw their paint over Hell's Angels.
- Terry Prachett

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Re: Thoughts on the Trans-Galactic Empire

Unread post by Braden Campbell »

How do you feel about the notion that the Kreeghor stole the idea of using cruisers and mixed fleet compositions from the Wulfen Empire when they attacked and absorbed half of it 1000 years ago?
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Re: Thoughts on the Trans-Galactic Empire

Unread post by KLM »

Errr... After like 20 years of war against Sploogies?

Sorry, not really plausible for me.

Adios
KLM
But still, one of the most basic rules for survival on any planet is never to upset someone wearing black leather - This is why protesters against the wearing of animal skins by humans unaccountably fail to throw their paint over Hell's Angels.
- Terry Prachett

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Re: Thoughts on the Trans-Galactic Empire

Unread post by Braden Campbell »

Well... let's talk about fighting a war of rebellion against a Splugorth Empire then.

If you assume that the Kreeghor picked up the use of cruisers during their struggle to free themselves from Whomever-cryth, then you are by default saying that the Splugorth have such ships in their fleets... and that, we simply don't see. The Splugorth don't use outer space... they use pyramids. They prefer rifting in armies instead of travelling the hard way through interstellar space. In fact, it's only becasue they now face the threat of orbital assaults from so many power blocs (10,000 years later) that they are begrudginly letting the Kittani build them a space fleet. What is more likely in such a war then, is a long series of very awful urban combats, since the Splugs do love them big cities of theirs.

If the Splugoth didn't have cruisers, then from whom did the Kreeghor steal the idea?
Braden, GMPhD
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Braden wrote:Thundercloud Galaxy has a flock of ducks in it that can slag a Glitterboy in one melee.

If that doesn't prompt you to buy it, I don't know what else I can say.
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Re: Thoughts on the Trans-Galactic Empire

Unread post by glitterboy2098 »

actually, i have to wiegh in with Braden here.

we have no hard exidence about Splugorthian space fleets, and as such we cannot make a judgement one way or another directly.

but we do know that Splugorth are much more focused on interdimensional rifting and magical travel that it is unlikely they have a very developed sense of what a space fleet needs. given that this particular Splugorth thought it was a good idea to take Tribal level Kreeghor and turn them into expendable shocktroops, i'd say a balanced fleet is not likely to be a big part of things.

in fact, in my opinion i'd say that the Kreeghor's original focus of swarms of destroyers probably was an outgrowth of that period of slavery. it would be much easier for a splugorth to have a large number of smaller ships built, and since they had slave crews, the ships would need crews small enough to be watched at all times, to ensure revolt or disobediance would not occur. this would tend to preclude the big cruisers and battleships, since those require big crews, more overseers, and have more chances of successful revolts.





on another note, your approach to the TGE is not bad KLM, but i must say i prefer my set up. i had considered giving the Kreeghor an honor code as a controlling factor, but that would have just made them Klingons-with-another-name. instead i looked at historical structures from the real world, and used elements that seemed to fit. and as i said, the end result is similar, but not exactly, like the early fuedal systems used in europe, or the political structure under the Han Dynasty in china...
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Re: Thoughts on the Trans-Galactic Empire

Unread post by Aramanthus »

Very interesting ideas KLM! Very nicely expressed! It does make sense. I think we need to have a real time line for the Three Galaxies. And I think that is where Braden's new books will help out tremdously.
"Your Grace," she said, "I have only one question. Do you wish this man crippled or dead?"

"My Lady," the protector of Grayson told his Champion, "I do not wish him to leave this chamber alive."

"As you will it, your Grace."

HH....FIE
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Re: Thoughts on the Trans-Galactic Empire

Unread post by Braden Campbell »

Shortly there will be 2 complete manuscripts sitting in the "waiting to be released" lineup...
Braden, GMPhD
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Braden wrote:Thundercloud Galaxy has a flock of ducks in it that can slag a Glitterboy in one melee.

If that doesn't prompt you to buy it, I don't know what else I can say.
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Re: Thoughts on the Trans-Galactic Empire

Unread post by Aramanthus »

Sounds great Braden! I can't wait too see those books in our hands. :D
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"My Lady," the protector of Grayson told his Champion, "I do not wish him to leave this chamber alive."

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Re: Thoughts on the Trans-Galactic Empire

Unread post by Aramanthus »

That means we should create some ships for those races you mentioned Gadrin over on the Starship thread. Maybe we could use them for the an Iron Engineer contest in the future.
"Your Grace," she said, "I have only one question. Do you wish this man crippled or dead?"

"My Lady," the protector of Grayson told his Champion, "I do not wish him to leave this chamber alive."

"As you will it, your Grace."

HH....FIE
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Re: Thoughts on the Trans-Galactic Empire

Unread post by KLM »

Braden Campbell wrote: In fact, it's only becasue they now face the threat of orbital assaults from so many power blocs (10,000 years later) that they are begrudginly letting the Kittani build them a space fleet.


Does that little fragments of data, in DMB2, pg 96. about the Dominators derail your
train of deductions?

Namely: Their civilisation was wiped out cca. 50 millenia ago. However, the
few hundred survivors were responsible for death of DOZENS of Sploog
intelligences over the millenia...

So it looks like from the moment they set their tentacles into the 3 Galaxies,
there were people who happily introduced them the idea of orbital bombardment.

As a side note, it is the Kittanii, who are inserted into place wherever Anyryth
needs a spacefaring minions race, however they are mentioned to be less
frequent beside the domain of Lord Splynn, making them less of a "widespread
pet race", more like "Lord Splynn's lap dogs"...

Adios
KLM
But still, one of the most basic rules for survival on any planet is never to upset someone wearing black leather - This is why protesters against the wearing of animal skins by humans unaccountably fail to throw their paint over Hell's Angels.
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Re: Thoughts on the Trans-Galactic Empire

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Darkmax wrote:Braden will win this one, if he thinks he cannot win, just change the canon! :d


If changing canon means it answers more questions (solves more controversities) than
the "new" creates, I am happy.

As soon as I wake up (and this proves to be a quiet day) I will continue what left out.

Adios
KLM
But still, one of the most basic rules for survival on any planet is never to upset someone wearing black leather - This is why protesters against the wearing of animal skins by humans unaccountably fail to throw their paint over Hell's Angels.
- Terry Prachett

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Re: Thoughts on the Trans-Galactic Empire

Unread post by gaby »

I think the Military ranks of the TGE need to make ther civilians and enemies fear them.
I think the ranks in to have War,Battle,combat in them.

Any ideas for ther Military?
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Re: Thoughts on the Trans-Galactic Empire

Unread post by Braden Campbell »

Yeah, lots fo them. :wink:

You guys seriously need to write a polite letter to Palladium asking them to release Fleets of the Three Galalxies. It will conclude all threads such as these, I swear.

Although... what we will talk about afterwards is a bit of a mystery...
Braden, GMPhD
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Braden wrote:Thundercloud Galaxy has a flock of ducks in it that can slag a Glitterboy in one melee.

If that doesn't prompt you to buy it, I don't know what else I can say.
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Re: Thoughts on the Trans-Galactic Empire

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Dominators fly around in starships that would make Dolza feel inadequte and have Emperor Palpatine threatening lawsuits. ships able to decimate entire planets in short order and fight off entire fleets.

seems to me that the Dominators aren't really the kind of learning experiance a splugorth would need to realize the value of a balanced fleet. more like the kind of learning experiance who's lesson is "always have a Pyramid ready to make your escape, and never put all your valueable slave stock on one world..."

so i can beleive the Kreeghor not adopting a balanced fleet until a race that managed to bloody their nose with one willingly joins up and starts singing (or howling, as the case may be) it's virtues. and when the CCW forms and starts using Wolfen derived balanced fleet tactics against the still destroyer heavy TGE, the Kreeghor finally get it into their heads that they need to start listening to a little canine advice.

it's not unkown in history. look at the british navy, which discounted U-boats in both WW1 and WW2 as a serious threat. and in WW2 this was despite the fact of the U-boats success in WW1! or WW2 germany's failure to recognize Aircraft Carriers as a substantial threat, and the resulting over focus on the construction of Battleships and U-boats at the expense of lighter more useful ships and their own carriers the Graf Zeppelin and the Peter Strasser.

or more recently, during the cold war. the US and it's allies pretty much abandoned the battleship or cruiser, instead focusing on the Aircraft carrier as the main naval combat force, with destroyers and frigates for primarily ASW and AA work.

the Soviets, despite knowing how effective carriers were, focused on gun heavy designs, especialyl cruisers, and later on Cruise Missile heavy designs. their only concession to the importance of naval airpower being a handful of smaller carriers like the Kiev Class, the Moskva Class, and the single example of the bigger Admiral Kuznetsov class. all were tiny compared to the Nimitz's, had markably inferior Airgroups in both size and quality of aircraft, and really only counted as carriers because they operated fixed wing aircraft, seeing as they also doubled (and would have been far more effective in the role) missile cruisers. and all of those carriers were designed with a defensive role in mind, not the offensive one a carrier is best suited for.
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Re: Thoughts on the Trans-Galactic Empire

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Actually Braden I'd say that the humans of Phase world would also be bringing in the balanced fleet with them. The USN is a very well balanced fleet. It has been that way since it's modern era. And I'm sure the Wolfen have a nicely balanced fleet. But the CCW would have to follow suit if two of it's major races had balanced fleets and were not going to change their tactics for the CCW unless the CCW changed it's tactical policy. So I'd say that more than one race forced that change in the CAF's.

Just my thought on it.
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"My Lady," the protector of Grayson told his Champion, "I do not wish him to leave this chamber alive."

"As you will it, your Grace."

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Re: Thoughts on the Trans-Galactic Empire

Unread post by glitterboy2098 »

actually since most of the humans in Phase World are not from earth, it is debateable if their histories lend themselves to the idea. especially since the definition of a "balanced fleet" varies greatly even here on earth.

and considering that early space travel would generally trend towards the development of a handful, if not single, type of ship designed to be customized towards specific roles (for economic reasons if not technical), it is likely every race went through a stage of "swarms of destroyers" (or whatever class) and had to reinvent the idea of frigates, cruisers, battleships, ect as their technology improved. space is not an ocean, so what works in a bluewater enviroment will probably not work as well in a 'blackwater' enviroment. even if the idea of multiple specialized catagories does work, it's going to have some very distinct differences from the bluewater navies, so the transition will not be an easy or direct one.
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Re: Thoughts on the Trans-Galactic Empire

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Point taken GB! I do see it. I guess I wrote the previous response without thinking of canon Phase World.


But I suppose it depends on where those humans do come from. In my game I have them from an earth. Not necessarily Rifts, but they come from and earth with a history of a balanced fleet.
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"My Lady," the protector of Grayson told his Champion, "I do not wish him to leave this chamber alive."

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Re: Thoughts on the Trans-Galactic Empire

Unread post by KLM »

I have to disagree, again. :D
(After all, it is debate what forges ideas and better face our inconsistencies NOW, than at the
table, as a GM, when a smart*ss player points it out :lol: ).

glitterboy2098 wrote:Dominators fly around in starships that would make Dolza feel inadequte and have Emperor Palpatine threatening lawsuits. ships able to decimate entire planets in short order and fight off entire fleets.

seems to me that the Dominators aren't really the kind of learning experiance a splugorth would need to realize the value of a balanced fleet. more like the kind of learning experiance who's lesson is "always have a Pyramid ready to make your escape, and never put all your valueable slave stock on one world..."


It is verrry tempting to make a Dominator, in his "planetoid size" starship the equivalent of a Death Star.

Yet, wiewed from the point of the "creator of the megaverse" (what a humble title :lol: ) it is counterproductive.

Let's see an example: if a Dominator ship is able to crush a Doombringer and its escorts without much
trouble, a few of these guys team up and scroch Kreeghor-Tet within an hour or so. Also they can
do it with all Sploog Dominiums before Xmas. Why didn't they do it before?

(There are a few details of course, which need a fix. The Doombringers (as well as most 3G spacecraft)
do need a serious upping of stats, to be able to fullfill the role they were built for. Also, it would be
inconvenient if a Dominator decides to pounce on Lord Anycryth and suddenly finds himself in the company
of a few hundred Kydians and a couple dozen Conservators.
Then, as a GM I have to explain why - against the odds like superhuman intellect, the ability of clairvoyance
and telemechanics, etc. - a Sploog intellect is unable to CAPTURE a Dominator Death Star... If not the first
try, then on the second or tenth)

Therefore I see them on the power level of about a CAF Warshield-led battlegroup or a TGE 3 Smasher + 6 Berserker
task force.

This still gives them pretty much playground against pre- or early FTL civilisations, especially considering
that they are called Dominators, not like Reapers or Doombringers - so they are not just murderous
xenophobes, killing every youngster race they can, but more like take over them.

Another thing is, that is a cruiser-group (like the above ones) have some quality time with orbital bombardment,
without resistance, it could result is a crushed civilisation, as they are capable to deliver all the destruction
from Guernica to the Glow of Dresden, from Pearl Harbor to Hiroshima - within hours.

WW2 germany's failure to recognize Aircraft Carriers as a substantial threat, and the resulting over focus on the construction of Battleships and U-boats at the expense of lighter more useful ships and their own carriers the Graf Zeppelin and the Peter Strasser.


...Or was it a failure?

Given the facts, that german radars (namely FuMo 22) were equipped to ships as early as 1937, yet the
"Ugly Sisters" were able intercept and sink the Glorious... After all, the North Atlantic weather was rather
discouraging for flight operations, especially with the aircraft of the time, so carriers were of limited use
there and then.

To be continued.

Adios
KLM
But still, one of the most basic rules for survival on any planet is never to upset someone wearing black leather - This is why protesters against the wearing of animal skins by humans unaccountably fail to throw their paint over Hell's Angels.
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Re: Thoughts on the Trans-Galactic Empire

Unread post by KLM »

There are couple of reason pro and contra.

1, Ship size:
Smaller ships are easier to produce, make sensor coverage easier, generally more bang for the buck
(both damagewise and MDC-wise), less painful to lose.

Bigger ships don't fall apart from a single shot, what's more, they tend to withstand
a significant amount of damage due shields, while dishing out damage themselves.
Bigger ships also tend to be faster in FTL, making concentrated attacks easier.

Carriers tend to be the best of both worlds - except deploying fighters takes precious
time, which seems to be very looooong if under fire.

Also, small ships cannot carry large amount of surface forces with them, not to mention
oversized "land battleships" (which the TGE calls "tanks").

Adios
KLM
But still, one of the most basic rules for survival on any planet is never to upset someone wearing black leather - This is why protesters against the wearing of animal skins by humans unaccountably fail to throw their paint over Hell's Angels.
- Terry Prachett

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Re: Thoughts on the Trans-Galactic Empire

Unread post by KLM »

gadrin wrote:
Traveller had the Battle Rider which was a non-FTL ship, heavily armed & armored which
would arrive via a FTL Tender (carrier) and then deploy in the local area.
(...)
Have you guys done anything like this ?


In the past few days (maybe weeks) I wrote something along that line.

In a nutshell, the current PW FTL rules hint that once a ship is out
of a gravity well, it can go to FTL as the captain pleases. Also, weapon
ranges are at least a magnitude shorter, than space objects' size, not to mention
their speeds - so if you deploy a bunch of STL heavy hitters to defend a planet,
they have to spread out to cover all angles - when a fleet of FTL capable vessel
can pounce on a few of them, kill one or two and retreat before the other can
arrive to the "grid", recharge their shields and strike at a different fleet element.

Also, when in a zero-grav space, if a swarm of Berserkers launch thousands
of cruise missiles against a Protector from like 200 km, it can just go to FTL
and relocate into a position like 5000 km away - but not before cutting one
or two frigates in half with its main laser battery.

A battle rider would kill two or three frigates, then transform into a very
expensive firework.

Adios
KLM
But still, one of the most basic rules for survival on any planet is never to upset someone wearing black leather - This is why protesters against the wearing of animal skins by humans unaccountably fail to throw their paint over Hell's Angels.
- Terry Prachett

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Re: Thoughts on the Trans-Galactic Empire

Unread post by KLM »

gadrin wrote:However in the right circumstances it's going to be very effective. Right ? :P


Right, thought I think the "right circumstances" happen to be scarce.

gadrin wrote:Another thing you have to look at is how much do missiles cost in PW ?


Well, if missile prices in "Mutants in Orbit", "Manhunter" or even in "Aliens Unlimited"
have anything to say...

They are cheap.

Even if hey are as expensive as in RUE, launching 10.000 LRM's costs like
240 million credits. If they gut a 50 billion Protector (let's say the point defense
takes out like 5000, the remaining 5000*4*d6*10 = cca. 700.000 MD , it looks like
a confirmed kill), it was well worth the effort.

gadrin wrote:Soon they'll have 100's of MD and carry forcefields and jamming and .... :P


Another lesson in warfare economics: guided (laser or GPS) bombs cost
way more than dumb ones. Except, that they hit the target and do not kill
bystanders... Well, usually. And it took like 3-400 "dumb" bombs to take
out a bridge, as well as a few downed bombers, in WWII - with guided
bombs, it was actually much cheaper, moneywise and casualtywise alike.

So yes... Sometimes putting a guidance system into a gutted silverhawk
and filling it with K-Hex (while costing a fortune) is cheaper than a full
broadside.

Adios
KLM
But still, one of the most basic rules for survival on any planet is never to upset someone wearing black leather - This is why protesters against the wearing of animal skins by humans unaccountably fail to throw their paint over Hell's Angels.
- Terry Prachett

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Re: Thoughts on the Trans-Galactic Empire

Unread post by glitterboy2098 »

KLM wrote:I have to disagree, again. :D
(After all, it is debate what forges ideas and better face our inconsistencies NOW, than at the
table, as a GM, when a smart*ss player points it out :lol: ).

glitterboy2098 wrote:Dominators fly around in starships that would make Dolza feel inadequte and have Emperor Palpatine threatening lawsuits. ships able to decimate entire planets in short order and fight off entire fleets.

seems to me that the Dominators aren't really the kind of learning experiance a splugorth would need to realize the value of a balanced fleet. more like the kind of learning experiance who's lesson is "always have a Pyramid ready to make your escape, and never put all your valueable slave stock on one world..."


It is verrry tempting to make a Dominator, in his "planetoid size" starship the equivalent of a Death Star.

Yet, wiewed from the point of the "creator of the megaverse" (what a humble title :lol: ) it is counterproductive.

Let's see an example: if a Dominator ship is able to crush a Doombringer and its escorts without much
trouble, a few of these guys team up and scroch Kreeghor-Tet within an hour or so. Also they can
do it with all Sploog Dominiums before Xmas. Why didn't they do it before?

because its not worth it for them. we do not know their over all plans. or their reason for targeting Splugorth. heck, we don't even know if dominators even work together.

plus consider this. attacking a splugorth dominion just destroys lots of valuable slave stock, while the Splugorth escapes to set up shop in another dimension. not a lot of result there. attacking Kreegho-tet is going ot put them up against not just a few doombringers, but several of them, along with hundreds more cruisers and destroyers and thousands of fighters and any invincible guardsman in the region.....literally everything able to reach the homeworld and fight.

why go through all of that for no real reward, when they can maraud arounfd the fringes of society, conquering lesser developed worlds and exploiting them? heck, thats probably why they have killed so many splugorth. thats the Splugorth MO as well.

(There are a few details of course, which need a fix. The Doombringers (as well as most 3G spacecraft)
do need a serious upping of stats, to be able to fullfill the role they were built for. Also, it would be
inconvenient if a Dominator decides to pounce on Lord Anycryth and suddenly finds himself in the company
of a few hundred Kydians and a couple dozen Conservators.
Then, as a GM I have to explain why - against the odds like superhuman intellect, the ability of clairvoyance
and telemechanics, etc. - a Sploog intellect is unable to CAPTURE a Dominator Death Star... If not the first
try, then on the second or tenth)

Therefore I see them on the power level of about a CAF Warshield-led battlegroup or a TGE 3 Smasher + 6 Berserker
task force.

and yet we are told they Can destroy entire fleets and devistate worlds. and that they are Planetoid sized.

and thats all we have. no hard stats, no specifics. frankly, i find it highly unlikely their ships are much weaker than a Marduk Baseship from macross II.

strong enough to do the job as described, but weak enough that diverting a sector fleet is the minimum strength one would need to fight them conventionally.
WW2 germany's failure to recognize Aircraft Carriers as a substantial threat, and the resulting over focus on the construction of Battleships and U-boats at the expense of lighter more useful ships and their own carriers the Graf Zeppelin and the Peter Strasser.


...Or was it a failure?

Given the facts, that german radars (namely FuMo 22) were equipped to ships as early as 1937, yet the
"Ugly Sisters" were able intercept and sink the Glorious... After all, the North Atlantic weather was rather
discouraging for flight operations, especially with the aircraft of the time, so carriers were of limited use
there and then.


except for the fact that it was airpower that kept the german fleet bottled up in the early part of the war. that it was obsolete airpower off british carriers that sank all those battleships and battlecruisers when they did manage to break out into the atlantic. that it was carrier air power that sank more U-boats than any other method (thanks to the merchant carriers and escort carriers used to escort convoys.)

had the germans diverted efforts from their pocket battleships to building carriers, especially with the Fw-109's and JU-87's as the planned air groups, they'd have broken out into the atlantic much earlier, would have survived most of the encounters that sank ships like the bismark, and would have succedded in hurting allied shipping as originally intended.

or if the germans had devoted more resources to their u-boat fleet (which had been somewhat neglected in favor of battleships), they could have pulled a repeat of the first world war, and put a stranglehold on britain through unrestricted submarine warfare, much like during WW1.

not that the successful fleets of the time, the allies, were all 'unbalanced' fleets. carrier heavy and submarine heavy. even in the pacific, the battleships amounted for little beyond shore bombardment, it was the large numbers of carriers and submarines that brought japan's navy to it's knees. japan, which had a fairly well balanced and advanced fleet incorporating everything from carriers to battleships to submarines....



KLM wrote:There are couple of reason pro and contra.

1, Ship size:
Smaller ships are easier to produce, make sensor coverage easier, generally more bang for the buck
(both damagewise and MDC-wise), less painful to lose.

Bigger ships don't fall apart from a single shot, what's more, they tend to withstand
a significant amount of damage due shields, while dishing out damage themselves.
Bigger ships also tend to be faster in FTL, making concentrated attacks easier.

Carriers tend to be the best of both worlds - except deploying fighters takes precious
time, which seems to be very looooong if under fire.

Also, small ships cannot carry large amount of surface forces with them, not to mention
oversized "land battleships" (which the TGE calls "tanks").

Adios
KLM


many smaller ships are more tactically and strategically flexible. they bring a higher firepower per mass than large ships, due to the lower % of mass needed for life support and crew. they are harder to hit, typically having superior realspace speed and manuverbility. while not posessing the sheer duribility of bulk, they can carry equivilent levels of protection. because their weaponry is spread out over a number of independantly operating hulls, the loss of a single ship is not a crippling blow ot an engagement. because of their numbers, an enemy comprised of smaller #'s of larger ships will either have to split fire, resulting in a reduced combat potential directed at each target, or focus on one ship, and leave it's flotilla mates able to engage unopposed, able to manuver to reach the side and rear quarters, able to direct fire at weak points.

the idea of a mixed fleet derived from this. the invnetion of the torpedo boat was the biggest driving force in naval development in history. suddenly the old line of battle paradigm was obsolete, and all the cruises and battleships developed under it were vulnerable. a small swarm of small fast boats with torpedoes could sink many times their mass and hundreds of times their cost in shipping all but unopposed. thus the torpedo boat destroyer, which was supposed to be able to protect the warships but all it really did was ensure that larger swarms of torpedo boats were needed.

the swarms of smaller craft paradigm still rules today. in the mellinium challenge 02 wargame, an entire US carrier battlegroup and a Marine landing force was sunk in the span of hours by fishing trawlers armed with obsolete anti-shipping missiles. the firepower overwhelmed the point defense, and the US fleet was unable to effectively engage the swarm of smaller vessels.

in regards to ground forces, splitting up your ground forces into smaller units carried by different ships ensures greater deployment flexibility, and ensures greater survivability, as the loss of one or two ships will not result in the loss of the entire ground battleforce..

Darkmax wrote:
Gadrin wrote:Traveller had the Battle Rider which was a non-FTL ship, heavily armed & armored which
would arrive via a FTL Tender (carrier) and then deploy in the local area. Of course you risk
time to launch and recover as being vulnerable, but basically once deployed (say in the outer
system) they could wreak alot of havoc. Of course their shipbuilding system lent itself to reinforcing
this by way of the ship stats and performance, versus the just pick and choose features of Phase
World. So pick a Hunter-class ship without a FTL drive, where all that space is used for additional
armor and weaponry.

This design also illustrates some of the advantages possessed by battleriders
versus battleships, although the cost advantages are largely eliminated when the cost
of the fleet tender is included. Still, a squadron of eight 50,000-ton battleriders in
a million-ton tender approximates in price two Tigress class dreadnaughts, yet
possesses much greater firepower and survivability.


the trouble with that is the FTL tender. That is a very difficult thing to achieve even at the level of technology in PW universe.


not really. take a heavy frieghter, strip it of the cargo modules, and let it dock with destroyers or cruisers. all an FTL tender is is a skeleton with a drive attached, at most basic.

alternately, you could employ the "Tractor-hauler" idea i've been considering, with a small ship able to expand it's FTl bubble many times it's normal size, allowing it ot tow large containers through space and FTL.. park a couple of cruisers inside the bubble and just let it take off.
KLM wrote:
gadrin wrote:
Traveller had the Battle Rider which was a non-FTL ship, heavily armed & armored which
would arrive via a FTL Tender (carrier) and then deploy in the local area.
(...)
Have you guys done anything like this ?


In the past few days (maybe weeks) I wrote something along that line.

In a nutshell, the current PW FTL rules hint that once a ship is out
of a gravity well, it can go to FTL as the captain pleases. Also, weapon
ranges are at least a magnitude shorter, than space objects' size, not to mention
their speeds - so if you deploy a bunch of STL heavy hitters to defend a planet,
they have to spread out to cover all angles - when a fleet of FTL capable vessel
can pounce on a few of them, kill one or two and retreat before the other can
arrive to the "grid", recharge their shields and strike at a different fleet element.

Also, when in a zero-grav space, if a swarm of Berserkers launch thousands
of cruise missiles against a Protector from like 200 km, it can just go to FTL
and relocate into a position like 5000 km away - but not before cutting one
or two frigates in half with its main laser battery.

A battle rider would kill two or three frigates, then transform into a very
expensive firework.


your right, it is easy to go to FTL outside the gravity well. which is why all fights will take place inside one. and powering up to FTL will take time, a minute or so at least for most ships, so it's not like ships outside a gravity well will be fighting like Nightcrawler in X2. (plus short jumps like that would be unidirectional, so you'd need some time between jumps to change course)

but since it is so hard to catch a ship outside a gravity well, that means that battles will usually occur inside one where neither side can get away. the tactical issues pretty much dictate it. so the swarm of cruise missiles is still a valid tactic.
and so are battleriders.

as for coverage, park the defenders in orbit with drives idleing, and they can cover the whole planet in a few hours. drop off a few cheap sensor sats and you can watch the whole planet. when an enemy shows up, kick on the drives and use the planet for a gravity assist. you can easily defend the small interdiction zones of PW.
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Re: Thoughts on the Trans-Galactic Empire

Unread post by KLM »

DISCLAIMER: It is my personal opinion. It is not canon, noone is forced to obey it (unless
I am the GM, that is)


Just in a few sentences:

Dominators and their ships:
* Planetoid size
What size are planetoids? Even if they are in the few dozen kilometer range, their weaponry
does not need to be relatively (to their size) as powerfull "standard" ships' - especially
that their "nova guns" aren't too powerfull for their size and that those ships are "personal"
ships - yachts and shuttles if you like.

* Can devastate planets and fleets
Mind you, 1-3 cruisers and 6-12 frigates (plus fighter, PA and robot wings) ARE qualifying
as "Fleets", and ARE able to devastate a planet, so to a Dominator ship to fullfill its intended
"role" in the story just have to be on par with the above forces (like 3 Smashers plus 6 Berserkers)
or a bit above that, but not neccessarily in the range of a Protector BS or even a Doombringer.
IMO having ships that pale the Death Star is also contradicts the few hints in canon, which
mention "thankfully lost" planet-buster technologies and kinda like shooting a fly with a heavy
flak battery.
Also, with the Dominatorsly appearently being "magically challenged" to say so, and with being
a fair GM so that I do not deny that someone might capture a Dominator ship intact...
(Just make in very, very unlikely... But players are annoyingly resourcefull and lucky :lol: )
... so I tend to use the smallest thing which fits into the description.


* "They cannot cooporate"
This sounds like a "just because the GM said". However, it might not be appropriate
for every gaming group and it does prevent the GM to use a multi-faced "enemy"
with internal conflicts.

-------------
WWII, German fleet composition:
It is very easy to judge decisions with information, which were not aviable for the
people, who made the decisions, and label that they made a mistake.
For example, the Kriegsmarine's shipbuilding schedule was created with the notion
from the Führer, that war will not erupt until like 1942. Yeah, right.
(And better prepare for that we will be labeled as nazi worshippers :eek: ).

------------
Tactical FTL:
Unless you have infromation leaked out, that "1 minute to charge up FTL"
is not canon. However, I played with az MMO(RP)G, when warp drives had
a 30 to 60 sec cooldown period, planets had "interdiction fields" as well as
dedicated interdictor cruisers... Well, FTL still proved decisive in many times.

Battlerider:
I said that they have very limited use. One factor is that capital ships
are supposedly cumbersome in STL... So for a carrier it is not practical
to bring craft above frigate size, which can compensate their lacking FTL
with high STL.
Also, for a ship, the following things are factored in for the price:
- Hull and armor
- Life support
- Sensors
- Weaponry
- Shields
- STL drive
- Powerplant

These are more or less equal for a true starship and a battlerider.
The one last item is the
- FTL system

Which decides (along with tactical issues) whether it is "economical" to build
battleriders or not.

For my part, using tactical FTL (which is still below "Phase-hops" by the Star Ghost
fighter) means that there are very few STL warships or fighters. Even "canon"
starfighters are equipped with an FTL drive - but those are limited for 0,1 to 0,5 ly/h
speed or even less AND also limited up to a few light hours in range - enough for
them to be launched from Earth and to make it to like Pluto on their "own feet"
within reasonable time - ie. within a few minutes.

Adios
KLM
But still, one of the most basic rules for survival on any planet is never to upset someone wearing black leather - This is why protesters against the wearing of animal skins by humans unaccountably fail to throw their paint over Hell's Angels.
- Terry Prachett

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Re: Thoughts on the Trans-Galactic Empire

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I like to think of the planetoids as being similair to the ship Galactus (World eater from Marvel) travels around in. And his normal traveling vessel is around one mile in diameter. I know he has an actual starbase the size of a solar system. Where he has many other worldships docked, and many captured items stored. So my Dominators operate their planetoids which are about the same sort as old big G.

I'm not going to get involved in number of ships needed and which class is better than the others. Each have their place in the sceme of things in Phase world.

And Gadrin I think I figured out how you can create a scary battlerider and battletender group. Create a pocket dimension within a large enough opening in say one of the truly gigantic freighters from Phase World. http://www.kitsune.addr.com/Rifts/Rifts-PW-Vehicles/Freight_King_Freighter.htm And if you use that dimensional book and equip it with say a dimension of about 10 miles by 10 miles by 10 miles you could hold plenty of both cruisers and destroyer battleriders to keep anyone occupied until another force shows up.
"Your Grace," she said, "I have only one question. Do you wish this man crippled or dead?"

"My Lady," the protector of Grayson told his Champion, "I do not wish him to leave this chamber alive."

"As you will it, your Grace."

HH....FIE
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Re: Thoughts on the Trans-Galactic Empire

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gadrin wrote:
KLM wrote:
For my part, using tactical FTL (which is still below "Phase-hops" by the Star Ghost
fighter) means that there are very few STL warships or fighters. Even "canon"
starfighters are equipped with an FTL drive - but those are limited for 0,1 to 0,5 ly/h
speed or even less AND also limited up to a few light hours in range - enough for
them to be launched from Earth and to make it to like Pluto on their "own feet"
within reasonable time - ie. within a few minutes.

Adios
KLM


Interesting, I assume your "0,1" is "0.1" for us Americans ? So that's roughly around
~750+ AU in an hour, right ? I don't think I have my old Excel sheet handy, so I'm
doing it from memory.


Yepp, 0,1 means 1/10, which is less than two minutes from Earth to Pluto.

I had thought of doing it that way, saying ships could travel at .001 or other fractions/multiples
of a LY/per hour but...pretty soon it's going to look like Trek's warp, where they go "Neptune to Earth and
back in 6 minutes" and essentially becomes teleportation and very little risk. "We dodge by going to warp
every action." < snore >

I had thought about doing a minimum speed and minimum trip time (say 30 minutes) and not being able
to break those up into smaller numbers so it 1) doesn't become Star Trek, 2) forces the players & GM to
plan and move at sublight speeds, meaning traps/danger/risks must be taken.


Not neccessarily.

First, it is important to point out, that currently CANON doesn't limit FTL, nor by charge-up
time, nor by "minimum distance". There are hints for precision not being absolute (see
Navigation - Space skill, DMB2, p151).
But even with the current rules, the need for skill roll makes conventional FTL drives
tactically less useable than the Phase-Jump system of the Star Ghost fighter in DMB2.

Not that I would be content using only this drawback, see:

viewtopic.php?f=28&t=66139&p=1464891&hilit=Black+Rose#p1464891

This particular design is the top of the "not truely FTL" category, converted
canon designs have the same method using FTL but with worse parameters.

Second, canon hints that the 3 Galaxies are rife with pirates - but no "official" interdiction
methods are disclosed. I think we all can cite at least 3 different methods is sci-fi for
getting a ship out of FTL from the top of our head.
The problem is, that whatever method will there be in the Fo3G, it will make dozens
of housebrew interdictors obsolete or not fitting for the setting.

Adios
KLM
But still, one of the most basic rules for survival on any planet is never to upset someone wearing black leather - This is why protesters against the wearing of animal skins by humans unaccountably fail to throw their paint over Hell's Angels.
- Terry Prachett

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Re: Thoughts on the Trans-Galactic Empire

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Darkmax wrote:I think planetoid is under the hundreds to thousands of kilometer range


Wikipedia, planetoid:
Minor planet is a term used since the 19th century to describe objects in orbit around the Sun that are not major planets or comets.[1] The term planetoid has also been used.[2]


So anything from a grain of sand to Luna (or even Pluto)...

Adios
KLM
But still, one of the most basic rules for survival on any planet is never to upset someone wearing black leather - This is why protesters against the wearing of animal skins by humans unaccountably fail to throw their paint over Hell's Angels.
- Terry Prachett

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Re: Thoughts on the Trans-Galactic Empire

Unread post by Aramanthus »

Hmmm Very interesting observation.


I forgot to mention that I've got a group of Dominators that work together in Phase World. And they are making my players very nervous. Although they had a taste of the power of that those dominators wield. :D And they the players want revenge.
"Your Grace," she said, "I have only one question. Do you wish this man crippled or dead?"

"My Lady," the protector of Grayson told his Champion, "I do not wish him to leave this chamber alive."

"As you will it, your Grace."

HH....FIE
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Re: Thoughts on the Trans-Galactic Empire

Unread post by KLM »

Aramanthus wrote:I forgot to mention that I've got a group of Dominators that work together in Phase World. And they are making my players very nervous.


The experience of being able to comprehend the inner workings of such a group
and use the tension present in it for our own purposes is something lasting
for most gaming groups.

:ok:

Adios
KLM
But still, one of the most basic rules for survival on any planet is never to upset someone wearing black leather - This is why protesters against the wearing of animal skins by humans unaccountably fail to throw their paint over Hell's Angels.
- Terry Prachett

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Re: Thoughts on the Trans-Galactic Empire

Unread post by Aramanthus »

Oh I know that is toally true KLM!!! I love doing that when I get the chance to GM for my group. :D
"Your Grace," she said, "I have only one question. Do you wish this man crippled or dead?"

"My Lady," the protector of Grayson told his Champion, "I do not wish him to leave this chamber alive."

"As you will it, your Grace."

HH....FIE
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Re: Thoughts on the Trans-Galactic Empire

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I see what you mean Gadrin. And you are right about the house rules. That is the reason I've hunted the web for any and all material for Phase World. I pick and choose for what is used in my games. Of course I encourage my players to use the same home rules I do when they run. Which only one of them runs at this time aside from me.
"Your Grace," she said, "I have only one question. Do you wish this man crippled or dead?"

"My Lady," the protector of Grayson told his Champion, "I do not wish him to leave this chamber alive."

"As you will it, your Grace."

HH....FIE
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Re: Thoughts on the Trans-Galactic Empire

Unread post by KLM »

gadrin wrote:
KLM wrote:Weapons are a good indicator of how piracy should work -- all slower than light. There are no FTL Phase World weapons.
Basically if you take canon and piracy, you're safe FTL and in trouble otherwise. There's many, many scenarios on how to take down ships in STL mode, so there's no problem there.

If you need warp battles, head your PW game towards Star Trek model.


Actually, we do not know about weapon speeds generally.

Mind you, interstellar communication is done by FTL radio and laser...

Extrapolation:
If a laser can carry like 4 bytes of information, it can mean "DIE!" as well as it can
be in the Terrawatt range (= dX*1000 MD).

Also, who said that missiles or CG slugs are ALL STL?
The possibility is open from canon side.

--------------------------
Trek is just one method of FTL interdiction. AU offers rules for FTL battles too.

In Star Wars (d6, WEG) there is no FTL combat as such, but there are many ways to
prevent ships going to FTL or even pull them out of FTL.

Same for the MMORPG-s I play(ed): there are systems, which disable ships' FTL
and other systems, which pull them out of FTL (sometimes even with altering their
point of arrival). Be they some "kind of tractor beams", missiles or area effect
modules...

Still "too trekkish"?

Adios
KLM
But still, one of the most basic rules for survival on any planet is never to upset someone wearing black leather - This is why protesters against the wearing of animal skins by humans unaccountably fail to throw their paint over Hell's Angels.
- Terry Prachett

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Re: Thoughts on the Trans-Galactic Empire

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gadrin wrote:
Mind you, interstellar communication is done by FTL radio and laser...


There is no FTL Radio. FTL Comm is a laser beam wrapped in a CG packet of some type...


DMB3 says "laser or microwave" so it is rather safe to assume that ALL EM radiation can
be kicked over lightspeed. Also, there is no reason to beleive, that there are any limit on
the amplitude of that radiation - and if it is strong enough (measured in Watts, thought
I don't want to even guess the power output of a lasercanon in RIFTS) it can burn a hole
into hulls.

In another words, canon left a door wide open, the "Fleets of the 3 Galaxies" will close it,
say "it is open" or don't even touch the issue...

Adios
KLM
But still, one of the most basic rules for survival on any planet is never to upset someone wearing black leather - This is why protesters against the wearing of animal skins by humans unaccountably fail to throw their paint over Hell's Angels.
- Terry Prachett

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Re: Thoughts on the Trans-Galactic Empire

Unread post by glitterboy2098 »

the issue of how a "CG wrapped" radio or laser would work (gravity manipulation wouldn't normally allow it, and any contrived means of doing so suffers the "how does it know to stop" problem...) is what led me to assume that FTL comms would actually use modulations of the CG drive fields to produce the FTL "bowshock" gravity waves that are used to detect ship in FTL. only in comm use you can do it while stationary and you use relative wave strength to send digital signals of an audio, video, or data file...

not close to canon, but it makes more sense to me. for canon i'll just assume using Gravity manipulation to open micro-wormholes or something... allowing for a directional FTL comm within a certain range... open the wormholes with one end at the transmitter and one end in the target system....

the "gravity wave radar" i figured would be a planar gravity distorsion, mass passing through it would set up fluctuations in the field which would propagate at FTL, allowing active real time scanning within a few AU...jut by sweeping the planar field from side to side or up and down, like the old radar beams...
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Re: Thoughts on the Trans-Galactic Empire

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Interesting thought GB. Sort of along the way Honor Harrington Universe has their work. And I mean that in the loosest methods.
"Your Grace," she said, "I have only one question. Do you wish this man crippled or dead?"

"My Lady," the protector of Grayson told his Champion, "I do not wish him to leave this chamber alive."

"As you will it, your Grace."

HH....FIE
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Re: Thoughts on the Trans-Galactic Empire

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What look would you give the TGE,s ships?

I say Make TGE,s Ships follow a Vertical Crescent shaped like the ones on kitsune site,the Kreeghor make ther ships to be Intimidating.
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Re: Thoughts on the Trans-Galactic Empire

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I've heard that theory too El Magico. Although there is not way I could quote the math behind it.

I like Kitsune's Kreeghor ships too. They are very mean and nasty looking.
"Your Grace," she said, "I have only one question. Do you wish this man crippled or dead?"

"My Lady," the protector of Grayson told his Champion, "I do not wish him to leave this chamber alive."

"As you will it, your Grace."

HH....FIE
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Re: Thoughts on the Trans-Galactic Empire

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gaby wrote:What look would you give the TGE,s ships?

I say Make TGE,s Ships follow a Vertical Crescent shaped like the ones on kitsune site,the Kreeghor make ther ships to be Intimidating.


The TGE makes its ships from the carapace of some giant sort (thought the actual creature might be as tiny
as in the case of coral) - so they have more or less ready hulls.

It is just lucky for them that those are "intimidating", though I guess a 3 mile diameter :) orbiting
your home system, with the knowledge that it is able and willing to erase whole cities or even
continents... Well, size matters, looks not really.

--------
As a side note, vertically arranged ships aren't really practical - crew have to climb ladders, use
elavators, etc, which is more time consuming than simple corridors.

Adios
KLM
But still, one of the most basic rules for survival on any planet is never to upset someone wearing black leather - This is why protesters against the wearing of animal skins by humans unaccountably fail to throw their paint over Hell's Angels.
- Terry Prachett

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Re: Thoughts on the Trans-Galactic Empire

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It doesn't matter they are great ships. And even if it is canon that the Kreeghor use some sort creature for their ships. My game is not be run that way. I'm going with standard construction techniques. As for the stuff from Kitsune, it works for me.
"Your Grace," she said, "I have only one question. Do you wish this man crippled or dead?"

"My Lady," the protector of Grayson told his Champion, "I do not wish him to leave this chamber alive."

"As you will it, your Grace."

HH....FIE
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