Cyber-knights....too powerful.

[(SHIFTY)]

I was looking over some of the new rules for Cyber-Knights and was thinking to myself that they may be too powerful now. I looked at all the bonuses and abilities they get starting out compaired to other characters and Cyber-Knights definitly got alot more to start. Did anyone else feel this way?

[rat_bastard]

Rifts (palladium in general) does not really do game balance. They are a Class made to wail on things in from a msytic training perspective, and they more or less do that well. So I would have to say i disagree.

[Killer Cyborg]

I was looking over some of the new rules for Cyber-Knights and was thinking to myself that they may be too powerful now. I looked at all the bonuses and abilities they get starting out compaired to other characters and Cyber-Knights definitly got alot more to start. Did anyone else feel this way?

Yes.
They went from being valiant humans who were dedicated to combating evil with little more than good training, some cyber-armor, and a couple of psychic tricks, to juicer-level super-human powerhouses without the downside that M&Ms typically get (death, insanity, loss of humanity, etc.)

[Killer Cyborg]

Rifts (palladium in general) does not really do game balance.

Actually, they do.
Or rather, they did.
Every upside in the original game also had at least one significant downside, but the new Cyberknights don't have any downside.

[rat_bastard]

Rifts (palladium in general) does not really do game balance.

Actually, they do.
Or rather, they did.
Every upside in the original game also had at least one significant downside, but the new Cyberknights don't have any downside.

EDIT: Comment removed - NMI

[Killer Cyborg]

Rifts (palladium in general) does not really do game balance.

Actually, they do.
Or rather, they did.
Every upside in the original game also had at least one significant downside, but the new Cyberknights don't have any downside.

They have your mom as a downside...

Your words humble and shame me.

[csbioborg]

I persaonlly think the cyber knights get way to much stuff but on the note of balance I think if you are going to start munchkining up the occs let's start munchkining up the tech to. Synethic muscles. Enhanced synapes. Write some real good bionics and biogear augmentations. Not you have to turn into a robot to be strong but stuff people would actually get. Also fulll conversions make them look fully human. Really, you can get almost human looking now. In a world with power armor and artifical mind transfer I think we can make the T-100. Also people mention mindwerks when this gets brought up. ONe give me some pseudo science so I can suspend my disbelief and two introduce it to America since it dosen't do any good if the PCs are on the other side of the world.
Will it make juicers superflous as a OCC maybe. However the high cost of nondamaging augmentiation will make it rare so regualr Juciers will still be the guys that couln't afford the good stuff.

Also the advent of the mega juicer made regular juicer selection kinda superflous if your trying to power game regardless.

[runebeo]

I was looking over some of the new rules for Cyber-Knights and was thinking to myself that they may be too powerful now. I looked at all the bonuses and abilities they get starting out compaired to other characters and Cyber-Knights definitly got alot more to start. Did anyone else feel this way?

They don't seem too powerful to me, just a lot of skills and good abilities. Their more powerful than many O.O.C.s, but not compared to a mid level Shifter (Why fight when demons can fight for you), Mind Melter (Bio-Manipulation Rocks) or Glitter Boy (boom!). The draw-backs are incredible honor which limits abuse of their powers and being heroes to the people can make them a big target to the many villains, supernatural and criminal organizations want them dead. It's a hard life to live and hard to stay alive being too brave for your own good.

[Talavar]

I persaonlly think the cyber knights get way to much stuff but on the note of balance I think if you are going to start munchkining up the occs let's start munchkining up the tech to. Synethic muscles. Enhanced synapes. Write some real good bionics and biogear augmentations. Not you have to turn into a robot to be strong but stuff people would actually get. Also fulll conversions make them look fully human. Really, you can get almost human looking now. In a world with power armor and artifical mind transfer I think we can make the T-100. Also people mention mindwerks when this gets brought up. ONe give me some pseudo science so I can suspend my disbelief and two introduce it to America since it dosen't do any good if the PCs are on the other side of the world.
Will it make juicers superflous as a OCC maybe. However the high cost of nondamaging augmentiation will make it rare so regualr Juciers will still be the guys that couln't afford the good stuff.

Also the advent of the mega juicer made regular juicer selection kinda superflous if your trying to power game regardless.

They can make fully human looking full-conversion borgs in Rifts. Check out the Bionics sourcebook for details.

As to the main point of the thread, I do think the Cyber-knights' Zen powers get a little crazy, and wish they didn't exist soley in an anti-technological way. They're still not really too powerful compared to some of the World Book OCCs, but solely looking at OCCs from the main book, they're all bonuses and no downside.

[rat_bastard]

Rifts (palladium in general) does not really do game balance.

Actually, they do.
Or rather, they did.
Every upside in the original game also had at least one significant downside, but the new Cyberknights don't have any downside.

They have your mom as a downside...

Your words humble and shame me.

You know I luv you KC, no offense was intended.

I don't feel that everything should have a downside, some things are just made better or without certain problems. I feel that the new cyber knight makes allot more sense if their are other types of cyber knight with other types of powers. I certainly would allow the two Psi-swords even if I would not allow zen combat.

[Misfit KotLD]

Rifts (palladium in general) does not really do game balance.

Actually, they do.
Or rather, they did.
Every upside in the original game also had at least one significant downside, but the new Cyberknights don't have any downside.

Aside from how poorly the Zen powers were done.

[Natasha]

Sure hope we dont have this conversation again.

I don't think they're over powered. They have to fight against some powerful foes. Hook em up, I say.

[rat_bastard]

I don't feel that everything should have a downside, some things are just made better or without certain problems. I feel that the new cyber knight makes allot more sense if their are other types of cyber knight with other types of powers. I certainly would allow the two Psi-swords even if I would not allow zen combat.

I disagree. The C-Knight IS in a shocking state of imbalance that has nothing to do with that unrealistic, IDIOTIC, philosophy known as "Fairness"-(Shutters in discust)

It has to do with them being Way to masterful Vs. tech, and Not being capable Vs. what has ALWAYS been their Main enemy...The Supernatural!

I couldn't give a Rats Bast-age about fairness! I just fail why they wer made into blatant JEDI rip-offs, just to combat the biggest Tech nation in North America, yet they can't hold they're own against even some of the weakest of SN critters.

Maybe they can kick the Ars of an "Iron Jaw RAT", but never much stronger!
Their Anti-tech powers should be Halved and given over to Anti-SN powers.

One, their main enemy has always been evil and injustice, not the supernatural.

Two, they are not Jedi knock offs, they are the student's of one of Kevin's buddies characters who was transported to rifts earth and made into a canon part of the setting.

[Daniel Stoker]

Two, they are not Jedi knock offs, they are the student's of one of Kevin's buddies characters who was transported to rifts earth and made into a canon part of the setting.

I've looked over the picture in the old PF book and if Lord Coake is the guy I'm thinking of he does tend to look a bit techie, but does anyone know what his class or stats might have been? From what I remember hearing their games were kinda free-form, but I assume they did have character sheets.


Daniel Stoker

[Natasha]

Two, they are not Jedi knock offs, they are the student's of one of Kevin's buddies characters who was transported to rifts earth and made into a canon part of the setting.

I've looked over the picture in the old PF book and if Lord Coake is the guy I'm thinking of he does tend to look a bit techie, but does anyone know what his class or stats might have been? From what I remember hearing their games were kinda free-form, but I assume they did have character sheets.


Daniel Stoker

I'd say there is Jedi influence but it came after Coake did.

[Talavar]

Rifts (palladium in general) does not really do game balance.

Actually, they do.
Or rather, they did.
Every upside in the original game also had at least one significant downside, but the new Cyberknights don't have any downside.

-RIFTS-Original Main Book-Human Vs. Juicer (Juicer wins)
-Juicer Vs. Borg (Borg wins)
-Borg Vs. Dragon (Dragon fer the win)
-Dragon Vs. Deitys (Deitys=HULK SMASH!!)

Balanced....Yes...That's the word I was thinking!

But there are the downsides of those things that you're ignoring. A juicer is balanced by their short-life span. A borg is balanced by the loss of humanity, expense of upgrades, etc. A hatchling dragon is all a player can use, and they've got a downside too - few skills, and hunted by the CS. Deities aren't available to players, so not really relevant.

I also don't think a borg will beat a juicer if you give both the same budget to outfit themselves.

[sHaka]

I've got no real problem with the CKs in terms of power level - there are plenty of other possible OCC/RCC choices to make a GM sweat. In fact I personally think the zen combat idea is pretty cinematic and cool.

My beef was how the original, gritty, pretty all round kick-ass class was conveniently revamped as a tech-slayer just in the nick of time for the SoT.

[Killer Cyborg]

Rifts (palladium in general) does not really do game balance.

Actually, they do.
Or rather, they did.
Every upside in the original game also had at least one significant downside, but the new Cyberknights don't have any downside.

-RIFTS-Original Main Book-Human Vs. Juicer (Juicer wins)

Perhaps in your games all you ever do is one-on-one, arena-style combat, but not everybody plays that way.
All a human has to do in order to beat a Juicer is to wait a few years until the Juicer dies on his own.

For that matter, a CS grunt vs a standard Juicer is a pretty even fight (using main book rules), depending on gear. Equipment is a bigger factor than anything else.

-Juicer Vs. Borg (Borg wins)

Depends on weaponry and armor more than anything else.

-Borg Vs. Dragon (Dragon fer the win)

Only if the dragon is able to successfully use hit-and-run tactics and regenerate between clashes.
Otherwise the borg (if he has decent gear) is more likely to win.
But he's nowhere near as versatile, and even after he wins he'll have to spend a heck of a lot of credits repairing that armor.

-Dragon Vs. Deitys (Deitys=HULK SMASH!!)

I don't remember the Deity RCC being in the main book.

Balanced....Yes...That's the word I was thinking!

It should be.

[sasha]

Three, I've been playing their games for 20 years now, and am fully versed in Palladium Books history, including Kevs freinds PC Lord Cokecain...

I'd say they haven't been friends for a couple of years now.

[sasha]

Ohhhhh....
To bad. Wonder ahappened?

I'll leave that you, since you're fully versed and all.

[rat_bastard]

Ohhhhh....
To bad. Wonder ahappened?

you know what the crisis of treachery is right?

[Killer Cyborg]

All a human has to do in order to beat a Juicer is to wait a few years until the Juicer dies on his own.

Awsome...No really KC, none of us have ever figured that one out! To bad in a stand up fight (Which is what this threads more about than not!) you don't have the luxury of Asking a Juicer to stand still for the next FIVE years, just so you can win!

As I said, if all you ever run are stand-up fights, that's your deal.
Other people have a broader scope.

For that matter, a CS grunt vs a standard Juicer is a pretty even fight (using main book rules), depending on gear. Equipment is a bigger factor than anything else.

Glad you threw that last part regarding equipment in... As one one, The CS solider does NOT, in fact fair Better.

But Yeah, I'm sure if the juicers just gotta Knife, and the Dead-boys got Heavy armor, a Bazooka, TX-Partical Pistol and 600 feet of distance on him, yeah, the "Dead boys" equipment will MAKE him even.

Standard Juicer plate only has 45 MDC.
Give the grunt an original C-14 or C-10, and the best the juicer can do is a stalemate in a stand-up fight.

-Juicer Vs. Borg (Borg wins)

Depends on weaponry and armor more than anything else.

... No, not really.

Sure it does.
A JA-11 could unload for 3d6x10 MD, and it could do it twice before needing to reload. Average of 52.5 damage per attack for 4 attacks comes out to about 210 MD average damage in the first melee round (and one action to reload, if the Juicer has boxing).
If the Borg is wearing Light Slave armor, that means that he's going to lose his armor and get knocked down to about 140 MDC in his body, and might be killed on that next burst if the Juicer rolls well.
If the Borg has a basic railgun that does 6d6 MD per burst, that's an average of 21 MD per shot. If he hits the Juicer with both attacks, odds are that the juicer is still standing even if he's stuck with basic Juicer Plate armor. If he's got boxing, then he can probably take out a set of Juicer Plate in the first melee round, but if the Juicer has Heavy Deadboy armor then he could well stick around long enough to kill the Borg first (especially if you can auto-dodge while you're making a 2-action attack, which is debatable).

-Borg Vs. Dragon (Dragon fer the win)

Only if the dragon is able to successfully use hit-and-run tactics and regenerate between clashes. Otherwise the borg (if he has decent gear) is more likely to win.
But he's nowhere near as versatile, and even after he wins he'll have to spend a heck of a lot of credits repairing that armor.

And should we ALSSSOOOO give the Dragon that Same "Good Gear" as the Dragon who, YES, has every right to use all of it's abilitys to it's Full advantage, than the ball falls right back in his court again.

I can't argue with that, because only because it seems to a bunch of Lewis-Carrol-Style nonsense-poetry.
You might as well have said, "The dragon would win because`twas brillig, and the slithy toves
Did gyre and gimble in the wabe!"

[csbioborg]

my vagabond and a vorpal sword greater than all of them

"Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
The frumious Bandersnatch!"


He took his vorpal sword in hand:
Long time the manxome foe he sought --
So rested he by the Tumtum tree,
And stood awhile in thought.


And, as in uffish thought he stood,
The Jabberwock, with eyes of flame,
Came whiffling through the tulgey wood,
And burbled as it came!


One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back.


"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'
He chortled in his joy.




`Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
Did gyre and gimble in the wabe;
All mimsy were the borogoves,
And the mome raths outgrabe.

[Killer Cyborg]

All a human has to do in order to beat a Juicer is to wait a few years until the Juicer dies on his own.

Awsome...No really KC, none of us have ever figured that one out! To bad in a stand up fight (Which is what this threads more about than not!) you don't have the luxury of Asking a Juicer to stand still for the next FIVE years, just so you can win!

As I said, if all you ever run are stand-up fights, that's your deal.
Other people have a broader scope.

And again, you do it twice in a row! You know, where you make it sound like I run my games like an idiot, just so you can call me out as one. And yet, I never ever defined how I run my campains. Giving you free reign to assume as you wish in order to pull down what I said.

You're the one saying that the two classes aren't balanced because the Juicer can take a normal human in a stand-up fight.
For people who do more than simple, stand-up fights in their games, that's an absurd claim. Combat is only one piece of the game, and the normal humans tend to have the edge in other areas.
By insisting on measuring the two classes in only one area, it makes it seem like that one area is all that you're aware of.

And should we ALSSSOOOO give the Dragon that Same "Good Gear" as the Dragon who, YES, has every right to use all of it's abilitys to it's Full advantage, than the ball falls right back in his court again.

I can't argue with that, because only because it seems to a bunch of Lewis-Carrol-Style nonsense-poetry.
You might as well have said, "The dragon would win because`twas brillig, and the slithy toves
Did gyre and gimble in the wabe!"

[color=#FF0000]Ah, the old "One, Two, Killer Cyborgs gonna Straw Man you" Trick.
Nice "Straw Manning" there friend. You re-make my arguements in your post, but in a manor that makes it look like I wrote, in effect, jibberish.

Remake?
I just quoted you rambling and pointed out that you weren't making sense.
Not sure how you think it's my fault that you were typing nonsense, but whatever.

If you want to try to have a conversation here, clean up whatever you were trying to say into coherent English. If all you want to do is project strawmen onto everything around you in order to claim that you're winning something, have fun with that.

[Killer Cyborg]

I'm not interested in arguing with you,

Then I have to wonder why you're spending so much time and effort on something that you're not interested in.

(Since I'm really NOT interested in arguing with you, at least not about all the non-rule-related crap that you're posting, I'm not going to bother to reply to any of it)

You pointing out how EQUIPMENT saves the day for the "CS trooper Vs. the Juicer", is as pointless as your equilly dumb counter to the "Borg Vs. The Dragon" senario.

In both cases you state that, if your Side has better weapons, Armor, and tactical/temopral positioning you'll win!

I don't have a side here.
I'm talking about how the classes are pretty well balanced, and part of what balances them is what gear they have access to, and what gear they can learn how to use.

But notice how you've gone from saying that gear wasn't a factor to saying, "of course gear matters!"

Doesn't that strike you as a bit inconsistent?

[Killer Cyborg]

You're the one saying that the two classes aren't balanced because the Juicer can take a normal human in a stand-up fight.
For people who do more than simple, stand-up fights in their games, that's an absurd claim. Combat is only one piece of the game, and the normal humans tend to have the edge in other areas.
By insisting on measuring the two classes in only one area, it makes it seem like that one area is all that you're aware of.

And WHAT edge do so called normal humans have over a Juicer, Mind Melter, Dragon, Mage...ETC?
None.

Actually, it depends on what type of normal human you're talking about.
Each OCC has different abilities and different reasons to play them.
But in general, the advantage over a Juicer is more versatility, lack of reliance on drugs (and the harness) and a longer lifespan.
The advantage over a Mind Melter (or mage, or dragon) is a hell of a lot more skills and the ability to move through CS territory (the primary civilized area) without getting hunted down and killed.
The extra advantage over the dragon is having much, much better skills.

So you give them one by saying they can run and go get guns, or use tactics. But so can ALL of the afforementioned.

No, not really.
Well, dragons can go get guns... but they can't use them except for firing Wild.
Good luck with that.

[Killer Cyborg]

I'm not interested in arguing with you,

Then I have to wonder why you're spending so much time and effort on something that you're not interested in.

Maybe you should finish reading the content fullness of what I wrote then to get your answere...

OH WAIT, I see, you pulled a "sound bite".

I said I wondered, not that it was worth wading through your drek in an attempt to decrypt your motives.

[Killer Cyborg]

Again (For the reading impared) Equipments a Non-Issue in this debate as ANYone can use it. This leaves Powers, Skill/training and iniate racial abilitys as the only real and true meassure.

Again, for the reading-impaired, not everybody CAN use it.

YOUR the one who keeps bringing up Equipment. Not I.

Because it's a significant balancing factor, one that you're trying to ignore for some reason.

[Killer Cyborg]

Actually, it depends on what type of normal human you're talking about.
Each OCC has different abilities and different reasons to play them.
But in general, the advantage over a Juicer is more versatility, lack of reliance on drugs (and the harness) and a longer lifespan.
The advantage over a Mind Melter (or mage, or dragon) is a hell of a lot more skills and the ability to move through CS territory (the primary civilized area) without getting hunted down and killed.
The extra advantage over the dragon is having much, much better skills.

Pick locking ain't gona matter much fer a dragon.
I'll take the TRUE versatility of a dragon any day over that.

Perhaps, but it's a shame that they can't use guns and are stuck with natural weapons that typically
only do 2d6 MD (6d6 for the fire dragon, but still not burst/spray capable)
No hand to hand combat training. No boxing.
No prowl. No basic math. No WPs. No Land Navigation.

Color me unimpressed.
Yeah, they have some cool abilities, but there are definite downsides to being a dragon.

And as to your ONLY real over all afforementioned saving graces "A longer life span for humans over juicers" and "The ability to walk through CS territory" for Dragons.

Well, That IS the only save for humans over Juicers.

That's kind of all you need.

But as to being able to pass through the CS.... Big whoop! If a human justs walks outside CS zones, Your Humans lifespan drops to about the same as a juicer.

Meaning that they're about equal?

And walking through SN controlled areas...well, then it pays to be a Dragon....Donnit?

Depends on whose territory you're in.
Remember that creatures with lots of PPE make for tasty snacks.

[Killer Cyborg]

Again (For the reading impared) Equipments a Non-Issue in this debate as ANYone can use it. This leaves Powers, Skill/training and iniate racial abilitys as the only real and true meassure.

Again, for the reading-impaired, not everybody CAN use it.

However... Most can. And everone I listed is part of that Most I just spoke of.

You didn't say "most."
You said:
"Equipments a Non-Issue in this debate as ANYone can use it."

Weapons in anyones hands change the balence, so yes, it is irrelevant to the discussion.

Since balance IS the discussion, weapons and other equipment that change the balance are exactly relevant.

[Killer Cyborg]

You didn't say "most."
You said:
"Equipments a Non-Issue in this debate as ANYone can use it."

Your right, I was not clear in that last statement, as the anyone I was refering to was of those prior listed, and I did not feel the need to a again reiterate this.

And since Dragons can't really use much in the way of gear, I pointed out that your statement wasn't accurate.

[Killer Cyborg]

But in game, just as in real life, there are thoughs who are just plain Better than everyone else. Put me up against a US Marine, and they'll likely beat me in every way...Skill, health, Training, education, experaince, and yes, even knowledge.

And who do you think that was in the main book?
Which class beats every other class in every way?

[Talavar]

Just to try and steer this back on topic, I still think the new cyber-knight abilities are a whole lot of good without any consequence. Whether they're balanced or not, juicers, crazies, dragon hatchlings, mind melters - they all have downsides. A juicer dies young, a crazy goes crazy, a dragon hatchling gets very few skills, a mind melter gets few skills as well.

Cyber-knights get a bunch of powers now, they always had a ton of skills, and they don't even need to stay a good alignment or anything. And unlike juicers & craziers, most D-bees can be cyber-knights. You could make a Titan or Rahu-man cyber-knight, for Pete's sake. So, regardless of whether borgs and juicers are balanced, I do think that cyber-knights have too much in the "plus" column and not enough in the "negative" one at this point. That and there should be an anti-supernatural Zen combat choice selection to go along with the anti-tech.

If cyber-knights at least had to maintain a principled or scrupulous alignment to keep their powers it would be some limitation at least(though a little too similar to D&D maybe).

[Shadyslug]

I also don't think a borg will beat a juicer if you give both the same budget to outfit themselves.

Okay...each gets $0 credits to outfit themselves...

Now go play test it...

[Shadyslug]

On the Plus Side of things, your back and forth has definitely increased my post count

LOL

Dude...that's about the only good that'll come out of debating with KC...

[Shadyslug]

As for the CK's...

I'm a fan...and I don't think they got pushed over the edge into Uber-hero-power levels.

There's plenty of things in the world 'o Rifts that will make them a toothpick...

[Talavar]

I also don't think a borg will beat a juicer if you give both the same budget to outfit themselves.

Okay...each gets $0 credits to outfit themselves...

Now go play test it...

Okay, the borg is a torso who managed to get his arms and legs cut off for free, and the juicer is a normal guy looking to get juiced. He waits for the borg to bleed to death from his severed limbs, then goes home. Thanks for your insight.

[Killer Cyborg]

Okay, the borg is a torso who managed to get his arms and legs cut off for free, and the juicer is a normal guy looking to get juiced. He waits for the borg to bleed to death from his severed limbs, then goes home. Thanks for your insight.

Actually, if the Borg gets his bionics taken away, then the Juicer loses his drugs/harness and goes into instant detox.

If you're resetting them to their state before any enhancement, then the Borg could well be a perfectly healthy human being.

[Talavar]

Okay, the borg is a torso who managed to get his arms and legs cut off for free, and the juicer is a normal guy looking to get juiced. He waits for the borg to bleed to death from his severed limbs, then goes home. Thanks for your insight.

Actually, if the Borg gets his bionics taken away, then the Juicer loses his drugs/harness and goes into instant detox.

If you're resetting them to their state before any enhancement, then the Borg could well be a perfectly healthy human being.

It was in reply to an asinine remark about outfitting a juicer and a borg with a budget of zero credits. For 0 money someone can't get juiced, and or any bionics beyond maybe the limb removals. The point was that outfitting either on a budget of 0 is pointless.

[Shadyslug]

Okay, the borg is a torso who managed to get his arms and legs cut off for free, and the juicer is a normal guy looking to get juiced. He waits for the borg to bleed to death from his severed limbs, then goes home. Thanks for your insight.

Actually, if the Borg gets his bionics taken away, then the Juicer loses his drugs/harness and goes into instant detox.

If you're resetting them to their state before any enhancement, then the Borg could well be a perfectly healthy human being.

It was in reply to an asinine remark about outfitting a juicer and a borg with a budget of zero credits. For 0 money someone can't get juiced, and or any bionics beyond maybe the limb removals. The point was that outfitting either on a budget of 0 is pointless.

Dude...you open door and get all bunched up when someone points out your folly...

Besides...who said anything about starting from scratch. Look at your own scenario. If a JUICER and a BORG fight. Not some moron thinking about juicing and another larry considering the borg conversion.

You really should check your fly if you're going to throw a fit...

[Killer Cyborg]

Okay, the borg is a torso who managed to get his arms and legs cut off for free, and the juicer is a normal guy looking to get juiced. He waits for the borg to bleed to death from his severed limbs, then goes home. Thanks for your insight.

Actually, if the Borg gets his bionics taken away, then the Juicer loses his drugs/harness and goes into instant detox.

If you're resetting them to their state before any enhancement, then the Borg could well be a perfectly healthy human being.

It was in reply to an asinine remark about outfitting a juicer and a borg with a budget of zero credits. For 0 money someone can't get juiced, and or any bionics beyond maybe the limb removals. The point was that outfitting either on a budget of 0 is pointless.

I think the original point was that in order to be either OCC, you have to already have spent some money. Well, more accurately, somebody has to have spent some money. Most borgs and juicers don't get augmented by paying out of their own pocket; they sign up for the conversion and pay it off through service.
So a lot of time they really DO have a starting budget of 0 credits, it's just that the Borg sells himself for a bit more.

[Talavar]

Okay, the borg is a torso who managed to get his arms and legs cut off for free, and the juicer is a normal guy looking to get juiced. He waits for the borg to bleed to death from his severed limbs, then goes home. Thanks for your insight.

Actually, if the Borg gets his bionics taken away, then the Juicer loses his drugs/harness and goes into instant detox.

If you're resetting them to their state before any enhancement, then the Borg could well be a perfectly healthy human being.

It was in reply to an asinine remark about outfitting a juicer and a borg with a budget of zero credits. For 0 money someone can't get juiced, and or any bionics beyond maybe the limb removals. The point was that outfitting either on a budget of 0 is pointless.

Dude...you open door and get all bunched up when someone points out your folly...

Besides...who said anything about starting from scratch. Look at your own scenario. If a JUICER and a BORG fight. Not some moron thinking about juicing and another larry considering the borg conversion.

You really should check your fly if you're going to throw a fit...

Check my fly? You're right, I foolishly said any budget, when I guess I should have said any sensible budget - what folly! Oh, how I have erred. Let me guess: when someone says "I love pizza" around you, your standard response is "then why don't you marry it!" Because that's basically the level of semantic loophole I "opened the door" to.

It's stupid to try and outfit either of these types of characters with no money. Even if you just went with main book starting gear and cash, that's a scenario that's workable, and one I think could really go either way. My point, in response to a poster who claimed that borgs automatically trumped juicers, was that to make a borg that's significantly better than a juicer takes a lot of cash, cash that both characters should have access to in outfitting themselves.

[Shadyslug]

The borg starts off better than a juicer.

Borg capable of inflicting MD damage with no weapons.

Juicer can dance.

Borg starts off as an MDC being.

Juicer can dance.

Sure...with no weapons the Juicer can dance, but a few solid punches from the Borg and the Juicer is red slime.

The only way the Juicer gains advantage is with surprise and better equipment.

[rat_bastard]

The borg starts off better than a juicer.

Borg capable of inflicting MD damage with no weapons.

Juicer can dance.

Borg starts off as an MDC being.

Juicer can dance.

Sure...with no weapons the Juicer can dance, but a few solid punches from the Borg and the Juicer is red slime.

The only way the Juicer gains advantage is with surprise and better equipment.

Juicer can do mega damage with a power punch.

[Killer Cyborg]

Juicer can do mega damage with a power punch.

Only due to Ret-Con. And since the Original Rifts book is what this lil side discussions about, that paticular Ret-Con can not be added in.

Then Borgs don't do MD on a punch either.

[Talavar]

KC's got it - before RUE (or Russian cyborgs anyway) - borgs didn't do MD on a punch either. According to RUE, a juicer can do a tiny bit of MD on a power punch.

As of RUE, could an unarmed or armoured juicer whittle a borg down with power punches while avoiding the borg's punches in return? Probably not long enough to kill the borg - I mean, that would take a really long time, and that borg's going to have to roll some 20s.

Working from starting gear though, and it gets a lot more equal. If you pimp your borg for a "versus" scenario, the juicer's going to have enough cash to buy some awesome armour and weapons.

[rat_bastard]

KC's got it - before RUE (or Russian cyborgs anyway) - borgs didn't do MD on a punch either. According to RUE, a juicer can do a tiny bit of MD on a power punch.

As of RUE, could an unarmed or armoured juicer whittle a borg down with power punches while avoiding the borg's punches in return? Probably not long enough to kill the borg - I mean, that would take a really long time, and that borg's going to have to roll some 20s.

Working from starting gear though, and it gets a lot more equal. If you pimp your borg for a "versus" scenario, the juicer's going to have enough cash to buy some awesome armour and weapons.

before rue, cyborgs and juicers had augmented strength. except Russian cyborgs, triax navy cyborgs and advanced alien cyborgs (wolfen, megaversal legion etc.). the original sourcebook one clarified that people with agumented strength could do mega damage on a power punch. Rue turned cyborgs to robotic strength creatures.

[Killer Cyborg]

KC's got it - before RUE (or Russian cyborgs anyway) - borgs didn't do MD on a punch either. According to RUE, a juicer can do a tiny bit of MD on a power punch.

As of RUE, could an unarmed or armoured juicer whittle a borg down with power punches while avoiding the borg's punches in return? Probably not long enough to kill the borg - I mean, that would take a really long time, and that borg's going to have to roll some 20s.

Working from starting gear though, and it gets a lot more equal. If you pimp your borg for a "versus" scenario, the juicer's going to have enough cash to buy some awesome armour and weapons.

before rue, cyborgs and juicers had augmented strength. except Russian cyborgs, triax navy cyborgs and advanced alien cyborgs (wolfen, megaversal legion etc.). the original sourcebook one clarified that people with agumented strength could do mega damage on a power punch. Rue turned cyborgs to robotic strength creatures.

CB1, IIRC.

[rat_bastard]

KC's got it - before RUE (or Russian cyborgs anyway) - borgs didn't do MD on a punch either. According to RUE, a juicer can do a tiny bit of MD on a power punch.

As of RUE, could an unarmed or armoured juicer whittle a borg down with power punches while avoiding the borg's punches in return? Probably not long enough to kill the borg - I mean, that would take a really long time, and that borg's going to have to roll some 20s.

Working from starting gear though, and it gets a lot more equal. If you pimp your borg for a "versus" scenario, the juicer's going to have enough cash to buy some awesome armour and weapons.

before rue, cyborgs and juicers had augmented strength. except Russian cyborgs, triax navy cyborgs and advanced alien cyborgs (wolfen, megaversal legion etc.). the original sourcebook one clarified that people with agumented strength could do mega damage on a power punch. Rue turned cyborgs to robotic strength creatures.

CB1, IIRC.

I bow to your superior knowledge.

[Killer Cyborg]

But in game, just as in real life, there are thoughs who are just plain Better than everyone else. Put me up against a US Marine, and they'll likely beat me in every way...Skill, health, Training, education, experaince, and yes, even knowledge.

And who do you think that was in the main book?
Which class beats every other class in every way?

Cosmo-Knight

Not in the main book.