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Talisman, 500 PPE to make the object into a talisman, then after a rest, 50 +spell PPE to charge the talisman two separate actions. That the talisman is permanently a talisman till its destroyed is why it costs that much to make the talisman. One of the thing I would rule is that once a talisman is charged with a spell, it can only be recharged with that spell.

That amulets are permanent and their bonuses stack on top of other bonuses and each other, that is why they cost so much to make.

Virtually all the other spells presented in the PB game books have a duration between instant and days per level. with most closer to instant then not.

Mephisto wrote:This might be just me...but aren't these spells really too expensive in level and P.P.E. to ever be viable? I mean come on...500 P.P.E. to make a talisman? And 290+ to make an amulet? That doesn't make creation magic all that appealing and in my opinion is a seriously broken game mechanic. Thoughts and suggestions?

There's a few things you can do.

1) Don't cast these alone. Casting as a ritual will do a lot for how much PPE you can garner. A couple or three wizards, working together, can create them very easily.

2) Geography. Cast them at nexuses and ley lines. If you cast it as a ritual (lasting 25-75 minutes) at a ley line, you're looking at 1000-3000 PPE available over the course of the ritual; if at a nexus, it goes up.

3) Let them be cast in stages. In a departure from the rules, allow spells like that to be cast in stages of about 100 PPE each, over the course of several days.

Mephisto wrote:I'm going to make two watered-down spells, Toy (for Amulet) and Trinket (for Talisman) to be roughly 5th or 6th level spells so that starting out mages can have access to these spells (I play mostly HU2, so those spells will help mages level the playing field); I'm still working out the logistics of the spells though but I should have them posted in a couple of days.

Actually, look in Through the Glass Darkly. They've got items called Charms which provide +1/+5% bonuses to certain items, saves, or checks, but only for certain people. It costs 1D6 permanent PPE (yours if usable by everyone, theirs if only usable by themselves, and 1D4 of yours if only usable by you).

Energy Sphere is your friend. I have a Shifter that has over 300 P.P.E. normally. Ley-lines, Energy Sphere, and Time Hole are very helpful in getting the P.P.E. needed. Also don't forget that there's that boost at noon and midnight, if I recall correctly.

And a lesser boost at Sunrise and Sunset, and then there are eclipses and conjunctions...

Great idea, build your book store directly on the ley line so you can use the books from the occult section immediatly after putting them on the shelf

I do not have any problems with the "high" cost for permanent talisman or amulet - it's just that permanent. Otherwise it's a lower P.P.E. cost but loose of permanent P.P.E. base.

I like the general idea, but can a trinket be re-used? That is, if I expend my trinket in the morning, can I recharge the same item at night, or do I need a new item? And I think I would lift the limit on attack/illusion spells... since they're single-use items, of low level, with a premium of power to charge, allowing them to use any kind of magic is reasonable, especially given the time constraints.

What they immediately call to mind is the "Flashstones" of Brust's Khavreen Romances (while trinkets can't cast attack spells, a single-use item comes to mind).

Mephisto wrote:

Mark Hall wrote:I like the general idea, but can a trinket be re-used? That is, if I expend my trinket in the morning, can I recharge the same item at night, or do I need a new item? And I think I would lift the limit on attack/illusion spells... since they're single-use items, of low level, with a premium of power to charge, allowing them to use any kind of magic is reasonable, especially given the time constraints.

What they immediately call to mind is the "Flashstones" of Brust's Khavreen Romances (while trinkets can't cast attack spells, a single-use item comes to mind).

The idea is that the Trinket is exhausted of magic, not physically damaged so yet it could be recharged. And thanks for the heads-up on not limiting the spells overly much. I'm thinking it might be best suited for 8th level, since that is the level that really deals with longer lasting effects and whatnot.

I'd probably go with level 9. Talisman deals with spells five levels lower than itself, and while it's got the longer duration, it's also a lot higher level of spell. Furthermore, 60 PPE is a reasonable cost for the spell, but it's REALLY high for a 8th level spell (which average around 30-40 PPE). 60 PPE is still on the high end for 9th level spells (which average around 40-50 PPE), but it's not so high as to be unreasonable.

Mephisto wrote:That seems OK to me. I'll come around to working up a proper copy of the spell (and ironically I can see the spell being well circulated on the Internet...but not one spell being given to actually put into the item! Kind of a Chicken and the Egg mentality) but now I come to the Amulet spell. It's interesting but isn't it really kind of weak for the bonuses/abilities it's provides? I mean 290 P.P.E. and 13th level puts it in some pretty impressive company of spells.

Yes and no. First of all, I have Amulet being listed as 12th level... not a massive improvement, but still.

Remember that spell magic is inherently an impermanent form of magic... it does not, usually, create things that last beyond a few minutes, or hours at most, and those things that it does create are usually physical objects (i.e. walls). Creating physical objects via spell magic is difficult... creating permanent magical effects is much more so. The first really permanent Wizard spell is Familiar link, at level 9... and it links the life-forces of two beings, meaning it's constantly refreshed by their lives. With level 11, we get Create Mummy and Create Magic Scroll. Create Mummy can ONLY be cast as a ritual... it's as much a component magic (like diabolism and summoning) as it is a spell. Create Magic Scroll is fairly limited in scope, and again has some materials requirements. Neither of them create a permanent magical effect that affect something other than the target of the spell... Create Mummy only targets the mummy, Create Magic scroll holds an effect that will shoot its load in an instant.

Amulet, on the other hand, is a permanent item that creates an on-going magical effect that helps another target. You can see the invisible, or gain bonuses to saves, or keep the undead at bay. That usually requires alchemy, a permanence ward (and thus the bones of a powerful magical creature), or the expenditure of permanent PPE.

It's somewhat expensive, but it also emulates an entirely different form of magic.

The Nightbane book offers a magic weapon creation spell that's unique to that setting. It's higher level too, but it also has lower level versions that aren't permanent. Bone Magic from Rifts offers a few permanent item creation spells that I think were in the level 8-10 range. There's a spell from Federation of Magic I think that offered to make a melee weapon magical but it's cost was very high, you sacrificed PPE and you could only cast it 4 times a year. The invocation/ritual Wards sort of creates permanent magical effects. Long duration but only usable once. Temporal magic offers a spell to make dimensional storage items, whether bags or belt pouches.

There are some options in the various books for magical items, but they are expensive PPE wise - and should be. To a supernatural being like a god or something similar, the cost is trivial. But for mortals and especially PC's permanent magic items should be difficult to make. You've inspired me to compile a list of all the magical items that mages could make.

Also the high cost can be dealt with in numerous ways. Ley line nexuses, drawing PPE from non-mages, sacrifice, petitioning a supernatural being, etcetera.

Item enchantment magic:

Mystic Alarm
-Level 2
-PPE: 5
-Duration: 1 year per level

Fragile Bone to Wood
-Level 2
-PPE: 10 or 60 to make it permanent (half for necromancers)
-Duration: 1 hour per level or Permanent

Charm Weapon (Ritual)
-Level 5
-PPE: 12
-Duration: 12 hours per level

Fragile Bone to Stone
-Level 5
-PPE: 20 or 120 to make it permanent (half for necromancers)
-Duration: 1 hour per level or Permanent

Locking Hand
-Level 5
-PPE: 20 or 60 to make it permanent (half for necromancers)
-Duration: 1 hour per level or Permanent

Fire Blossom
-Level 6
-PPE: 20
-Duration: 1 month per level

Witch Bottle
-Level 7
-PPE: 28
-Duration: 1 year per level

Time Capsule
-Level 8
-PPE: 30
-Duration: 50 years per level

Fire Globe
-Level 8
-PPE: 40
-Duration: 1 week per level

Attune Object to Owner
-Level 8
-PPE: 30
-Duration: 1 year per level

Temporary Enchantment (Ritual)
-Level 8
-PPE: 70
-Duration: 1 week per level

Fragile Bone to M.D.C. Bone
-Level 8
-PPE: 80 or 320 to make it permanent (half for necromancers)
-Duration: 30 minutes per level or Permanent

Wards
-Level 10
-PPE: 90
-Duration: 150 years per level

Dimensional Pockets
-Level 10
-PPE: temp: 20; long term: 140
-Duration: 1 hour per level temp, 6 months per level long term

Energy Sphere
-Level 11
-PPE: 120
-Duration: 2 days per level

Bone of Invisibility
-Level 11
-PPE: 360 (half for necromancers)
-Duration: Permanent

Bone Scepter
-Level 11
-PPE: 320 (half for necromancers)
-Duration: Permanent

Create Magic Scroll
-Level 11
-PPE: 100+
-Duration: Permanent until used

Amulet
-Level 12
-PPE: 290 to 500
-Duration: Permanent

Bone Staff
-Level 12
-PPE: 420 (half for necromancers)
-Duration: Permanent

Neclace of Bat Skulls
-Level 12
-PPE: 580 (half for necromancers)
-Duration: Permanent

Neclace of Bird Skulls
-Level 12
-PPE: 580 (half for necromancers)
-Duration: Permanent

Neclace of Dragon Teeth
-Level 12
-PPE: 640 (half for necromancers)
-Duration: Permanent

Neclace of Snake Skulls
-Level 12
-PPE: 600 (half for necromancers)
-Duration: Permanent

Neclace of Goblin Skulls
-Level 13
-PPE: 680 (half for necromancers)
-Duration: Permanent

Ironwood
-Level 12
-PPE: 50 minimum
-Duration: Permanent

Enchant Weapon (Ritual)
-Level 13
-PPE: 300 (melee weapon) 600 (ranged weapon)
-Duration: Permanent

Skull with Flaming Eyes
-Level 13
-PPE: 600 (half for necromancers)
-Duration: Permanent

Skull of Knowledge
-Level 13
-PPE: 640 (half for necromancers)
-Duration: Permanent

Talisman
-Level 13
-PPE: 500+
-Duration: Permanent

Sanctum
-Level 13
-PPE: 390
-Duration: The lifetime of the mage

Enchant Weapon (Minor)
-Level 15
-PPE: 400 or 1000+2D4 permanent loss
-Duration: 1 month per level or permanent

Not everything in this list is a true magic item, but they are tangible things with a duration measured at least in days so I included them. I did not include enchantment magic whose duration was measured in anything less than days. I'm sure I missed some other stuff, but I think this is a fairly comprehensive list of items an invocation mage can enchant. I used the Rifts Book of Magic, Nightbane, Heroes Unlimited GM Guide and Palladium Fantasy books to pull these spells. There's a neat one in Through the Glass Darkly which binds a persons soul to their decapitated head forever, but it ultimately just didn't feel like an item being enchanted. That's also why I left out the Golem, Zombie, Mummy and Familiar spells.

EDIT: The Temporal Magic spells in the list above I had originally listed with the same restrictions as Necromantic spells - they cost double P.P.E. for a regular invocation mage. Upon review of Temporal Magic in the Rifts: Book of Magic, these spells are not listed as costing double for non-temporal mages. So I fixed those P.P.E. costs back to their original values and removed the note about being half price for a Temporal Mage.

These arn't spells ment to be cast in everyday use. Your supposed to work up complex rituals to use them.

Dimensional Pockets
-Level 10
-PPE: temp: 30; long term: 140 (PPE costs from PF2)
-Duration: 1 hour per level temp, 6 months per level long term

This spell can be learned by other mages types at the same cost to Temp. Wiz.....hummm well...maybe not if rifts.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Dimensional Pockets
-Level 10
-PPE: temp: 30; long term: 140 (PPE costs from PF2)
-Duration: 1 hour per level temp, 6 months per level long term

This spell can be learned by other mages types at the same cost to Temp. Wiz.....hummm well...maybe not if rifts.

The spell Time Capsule I listed above I took out of the HU2 GM Guide, but it was also listed exactly as is under the Temporal Magic spells. So there's another example of a Temporal Magic spell that was incorrectly given to an invocation mage without it's cost doubling. Unless Temporal Magic doesn't increase in cost when learned by a non-temporal spell caster. I'll have to review those rules.

Mephisto wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:These arn't spells ment to be cast in everyday use. Your supposed to work up complex rituals to use them.

That was helpful.

A complex ritual could involve any or all of the following:
-Finding a place of powerful magic (ley line or nexus) not in the middle of civilization
-Casting your spell during certain celestial configurations
-Having a group of non-mages join you in the ritual and donate their PPE. A little bit times a large number adds up.
-Animal sacrifice. Since you can hold the PPE for 6 minutes per level, sacrifice several.
-Human sacrifice. Specifically, some hero categories get an above average amount of PPE. Kids have a lot too. Sacrifice several.
-Research (using rules in TtGD) a new version of the spell which is cheaper, or can be cast in stages
-Petition the help of a powerful supernatural creature

Rituals take minutes to perform, and when on a ley line or nexus you can siphon a set amount of PPE per melee round. An example, casting a ritual version of the Amulet spell, using magic information from the RUE and R:BoM books:
-Casting time is 1D4x10+15 minutes (Minimum of 25 minutes, maximum of 55 minutes)
-Casting the spell for 500 PPE to make an amulet to see the invisible
-On a ley line, a mage can draw 10 PPE per melee round
-Four rounds per minute times 25 minutes times 10 PPE is 1000 PPE. Four times 55 times 10 is 2,200 PPE!
-A Mage can absorb up to 3 times his normal limit in PPE and can hold it for 1 minute per PE attribute point

Now it's simple math: Assuming the mage has an average PE of 10, he has only 10 minutes of PPE storage before he has to use it. For the last 10 minutes of the ritual he begins absorbing the energy around him. 10 minutes at 10 PPE per melee round gives him an additional 400 (or 3 times his base, whatever's lower). Even a mage with 100 PPE normal will have 300 more now. That makes a mage with a PE of 10 and a base PPE of 100 only 100 PPE short, but he has some options to make that up - 20 average humans (2D6 PPE, 7 avg) can donate 5 each, giving you that extra 100; Another mage can contribute the rest; Human or animal sacrifice; Have an external source of PPE available (talisman, Millenium Tree item, energy sphere, fairy bottle, etcetera). The list goes on.

Another thing to consider in your crusade to have a mage make magical "items" is that in the Nightbane book, the Create Magic Scroll spell specifically mentions that it can be cast into a laptop and saved as a file. While it can't be copied, it can be transferred like any other computer file, having a bunch of spells available on a PDA or laptop brings some possibilities to mind. Plus, they gan be given to others for one-shot use. And create scroll first off isn't restrictively expensive, and second off if you cast it as a ritual then the spell inscribed on the scroll has a saving throw of 16 when used.