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In general, they are not. I've suggested using the martial arts forms from N&SS for Warrior Monks, removing some powers and replacing them with a full martial art. I've also rewritten the combat system, to make it a bit more flexible.

However, one thing to keep in mind is that martial arts include weapons use... technically, the Longbowman, Knight/Palladin and Warrior monks all have their own specialized martial arts forms.

The problem with the N&SS version is that it's set up for 1st edition... it's just fine for 1st edition. However, if you're doing 2nd edition, it's inadequate. I'd also throw a choice of Lee Kwan Chu or Aikido at Scholar Monks.

Druid or were shaman kung fu!

Maybe the church of dragonwright has a dragon style kung fu!

Well, I think Dark Elf making a joke more so than trying to give a useful answer. It's something I generally try to do, much to people's (I assume) chagrin. However, I think his joke was particularly clever, so bravo.

Now as to people pointing out things in the books or official rules, that's the best that this forum has to offer. Clarification of rules, typos, descriptions, etc is very valuable and with this many people you can usually find an answer or at least a good rationalization for your view of a particular quandry.

AS for the Martial Arts forms, I'll take a stab at it. MOst likely, you won't like it but what the hey. Let me preface this by saying I am not really in favor of a massive influx of martial arts into a fantasy setting like Palladium. I imagine it as being magic and dudes in armor, with a combat style based more on the classic images I saw growing up with that genre. While I enjoy the high flying martial arts, to me that seems like a different genre and is not a good match for the fantasy one. One point MArk made was that there already are martial art forms in the Palladium world, with certain OCC's having specialized training in various weapons. The real shame was going to the big 4 H2H in 2ED instead of the individual OCC H2H tables of 1ED.

But, if everyone had some sort of proprietary martial arts, I wouldn't try to match an martial art form from our world to races or civilizations in Palladium. Wolfen wouldn't have a martial art from like humans since they have those pesky transverse legs and would have different methods of balance, etc. Also they have natrual weapons that humans don't like claws and a more powerful bite. So they would try to take advantage of those. I would think they would try to grapple and bring that bit to bear.

Dwarves I could see trying to always fight up in close. They would be more focuses on take downs and low attacks to try and take advantage of their size. Elves I imagine as trying to take advantage of their above average PP. They'd be more graceful and fluid, perhaps with more kick attacks to generate more power and keep a distance. ORcs, I see as just rumblers. They are going to just come at you and figure they can take a hit but deliver one that is more damaging.

-Vek
"Vampires would fight like Batman."

I think Dog Boxing would be horrible for the followers of Chantico; it's about debasing yourself enough that others will take you less seriously, so you can hit them when they get overconfident. Just because it's "Dog Boxing" doesn't mean it's suitable for people who follow a god who is shaped like a dog (quite against his will, I'll point out).

Followers of Chantico take themselves VERY seriously, IMC, just as Chantico does. He's the teenage emo god. Their warrior monks are likely to study something like Ch'in-na (Atemi and Invisibility, very structured and serious, with a sizable coercive vibe to the style), or Mien-Ch'uan (self-centered style, strong defenses, elements of an initiatory cult in its style).

Similarly, I think Avians are unlikely to use a style centered around hand strikes (like the Eagle Claw). They'd be more likely to use something like Tae Kwon Do or Ch'a Ch'Uan... lots of kick attacks and movement, taking advantage of the fact that they fly and have bladed feet.

Elves likely have a variety of forms, owing to their long history. They'll have everything from Hsien Hsia-style, change nothing martial arts to Zanji-like perfections of a single weapon to the exclusion of almost everything else. A lot of their forms will take advantage of the fact that they've got long limbs; you might see a Taido out of them. Dwarven styles will take advantage of their relatively long arms; Choy-li-fut or Phoenix Eye (getting too close for the enemies comfort, not many kicks, but a lot of nastiness), plus weapons forms, like Shih Ba Ban Wu Yi, Demon Wrestling, or techniques similar to Sumo (though without the dismorphism).

Wolfen unarmed techniques forms will take advantage of their natural weapons; there likely aren't a lot of human martial arts that compare, since biting and clawing are going to figure into these. Likely not a lot of kicks; they're balanced pretty high, and their legs are poorly suited to them. Again, you might see some Phoenix Eye or Tiger Claw, and maybe something with some varied weapons capabilities (their combat forms are unlikely to be purely unarmed; their society doesn't have a tradition of disarming the peasantry, that we know of).

The thing is, while the forms will somewhat resemble these forms, they won't be them, and it probably makes more sense to design their forms from the ground up. Dwarven forms may concentrate on fighting other dwarves, but their reality is that dwarves aren't the only thing they have to put up with. They've got to have a style that can deal with giants and hostile monsters, not just other bipedal, roughly dwarf-sized, humanoids.

I wish I was allowed to pop another brand of RPG here, as there is one out that has multiple styles of Kungfu and such that would seem to be easily brought into the Palladium setting with minimal fuss, including such favs as Shaolin and Praying Mantis. If you want to hear of it, send me a PM.

But in the interest of forwarding debate, how about designing such things as animal styles, but with a slant towards Palladium animals, perhaps of monstrous bent? How about learning Kurgi style Rat technique (limited to priests of Kurgi) or Rurgas' Way of the Opposing Shield (palladins and knights only). Of course I'm being a bit silly with the names, but all it takes is an idea of where you want to go, and move with it. For example, Kurgis style would focus more on dirty fighting (eye gouges, biting, hair pulling, knee to the groin) and less on finesse. If you wanted you could come up with different movements that have certain outcomes on success, or make it simple, and just provide bonuses AND negatives to using certain styles in hand to hand melee, that replace those granted by the plain jane martial arts H2H skill (and which I might add would bring some of the flavor back into H2H fighting period). Some styles allow weapons, others (like the monk) would not. Some would allow combat to the death, whereas others (again, the monk) would simply incapacitate.

It would also allow one to begin to capitalize on all those wizard spells that require touch, but which most wizards don't (and won't) use because of melee combat fatality. If they could learn a combat style to allow them to both use their touch spells AND defend themselves properly, it would go a long way in bringing them to the fore as a viable combat class rather than simply a nuker that must run behind the closest available tank after firing off a fireball and angering the mob.

I beleive that the warrior monks should be able to access the N&SS martial arts without hinderance. The martial arts would look exactly the way they do now. Few martial arts are modern creations. THe only one that comes to mind is Bruce Lee's Jee Kune Do. Most were created by peasants who worked the fields and learned how to use their farm tools as deadly weapons since many were not allowed to use swords.

We have thrown martial arts in various forms into our PF games forever. Our group tends to reserve the N&SS arts for those who grew up with a martial background, then went into a military field. We also make you buy katas for your weapons if you go that route. A knight with a version of samuri hth, or a child who grew up in a thieves guild having Leopard Style as examples. The other route we use is the warrior monk as a straight dedicated martial artist from N&SS. We have also played with have Rifts Japan style martial arts being fairly common in place of the standard basic/expert/MA. So a character who could take MA can switch to Kendo say following the cost guide in Japan. It was more for variety then anything else, plus it was fun to be able to say "That guy is from the west look at the way he fights," without having to go into the detail of the full N&SS styles.

My rule is that only Monks in PF and PTs in HU get the advanced martial arts from N&SS

In my game I use a point system and you have to take HTH Basic before you can advance to the general martial arts forms. However I have adopted the hand to hands from PF1 like Rogue hand to hand, Knight hand to hand etc.

But the reason I restrict access to the martial arts is because it makes being a PT or a Monk all the more appealing and you can even have the Chi abilities. This is their major leg up on the other classes. This is their bone. Knights have the way of the horse/Lance/ priests are backed up by gods, mages got fireballs coming out of their arse, and monks should get special access to fistfus

Was reading through Rifter #7 when I noticed it has Martial Arts rules in it, so this may be a place to start.

Scott Sanderson wrote:Now I remember why I never post anything on these boards.

108 posts is "never"?

Chello!

KillWatch wrote:THe only one that comes to mind is Bruce Lee's Jee Kune Do.

There's also Systema (Soviet Spetnaz training) and Combato (created by a US marine).

On the topic, I think the idea has merit. Looking back at late medieval Europe (late 14th, early 15th C.), we start seeing works like the I.33 manuscript and the Wallenstein codex. These manuals mostly look at weapon styles, but there are also sections that look at wrestling skills against other unarmored opponents and also when disarmed in combat.

I would also think that elves would have a martial art style, probably quick and deadly like an aikido or jiu jutsu and using staves and bows as weapon forms. IF the Wolfen & Coyles have the time to develop one (and that's doubtful imho at this statge of development), it would make use of their natura weaponry, aagin, imho.

Tony

I think it would be cool if each race in PF had a couple MA that were popular with their warriors. I have never put any work into that though. I do allow players, with a good background reason/story, the option of selecting MAs from NSS. Here is what I do:
1. They must be able to take martial arts by OCC
2. They must use the required skill slots to select HTH MA +1 to select standard from, HTH MA +2 for exclusive forms.
3. Each MA power, skill, kata, or WP that the form has replaces one OCC related, or secondary skill once related skills are all used up. Any skills/powers that don’t make sense get dropped.
That’s it. The skill cost in most cases is too prohibitive for most players so few have used them. But I allow it.

I'd given thought to talking about what kind of fighting styles various races would favor; I think an article on that, by someone who is interested, would be a great idea.

I allow martial arts as long as its a class that it dovetails into well, and the character background shows that it fits in. I find it's a great way to add flavor to characters, especially men at arms. I do tend to power down some of the martial arts bonuses, but I think N&SS provides some great source material for PF. I also require a significant skill investment to show the years spent in training. I typically allow Hand to hand basic at 1 skill cost, Expert at 2 skill cost, I treat martial arts as advanced hand to hand training an elite soldier would see at the cost of 4 skills, and I add expert martial arts (from N&SS) for a cost of 4 skills. Some classes like the warrior monk or assassin get it significantly cheaper. I also use chi in my campaign though. Not only to use it tofor chi powers, but as a general indicator of health and energy. Certain conditions and situations (hunger/weather/ets) will lower the chi. When it gets low enough I throw fatigue penalties on as ehaustion sets in, it makes your save vs disease weaker and when it hits 0 healing slows to a crawl. In the negatives only magical, psionic or chi healing can save the charater. My group really enjoys the added dimension.

It amazes me, Mephisto, how much of your stuff that I use without even realizing you wrote it! It actually makes me feel guilty, like maybe you aren't getting the recognition you deserve. That being said....

Mephisto rocks! You guys and gals should check out his stuff. The guy is a phenomenal creator. Really! Martial arts, maps and adventures oh my!

My work here is done.

Mephisto wrote:

Northern Ranger wrote:It amazes me, Mephisto, how much of your stuff that I use without even realizing you wrote it! It actually makes me feel guilty, like maybe you aren't getting the recognition you deserve. That being said....

Mephisto rocks! You guys and gals should check out his stuff. The guy is a phenomenal creator. Really! Martial arts, maps and adventures oh my!

My work here is done.

Thanks Northern Ranger, it's good to be appreciated (and by the same token, I like your magic spells, they are very inspired; if only I had a game group...)

Thank YOU sir. As you said, it's nice to be appreciated. If you ever get a gaming group going, let me know how the spells work for you! Did you ever get my skill list re-write? I'm on version six now, with a whole new category of skills designed to make animal companions a little tougher.

You are quite welcome BARQ. And as always, thanks for the praise! It's appreciated

If you are talking about Introducing N&SS/MC forms into PFRPG 2nd edition, Why not just drop the DMA and WMA into it unchanged??? While they might be Combat monsters they are not invincible. The conversion notes in the back of N&SS were meant for PFRPG 1st/Revised editions and not for the 2nd edition which is basically the fantasy version of Rifts. Some MC classes Can me droped in without change as well. The Warrior monks should have access to Shao-Lin Kung-Fu.

However I would not allow ALL races&classes to have access to most N&SS/MC Hth forms. Many forms are not commonly available and some are extra-ordnarily rare. I would restrict MA Forms to the MC/MA classes that can indeed be dropped into a fantasy setting with few changes. The Warrior Monk would be the exception.

For MAF in the PF world, see page 163 of N&S.

Scott Sanderson wrote:What Martial Arts forms from Ninjas & Superspies or Mystic China do you think match up with different regions, races or OCCs of the Palladium world? I'm thinking each kingdom in the Western Empire would have its own style too.

We didn't use the Palladium Fantasy setting, but I played a DMA in a Palladium Fantasy game. My character had Te, Isshin Ryu and Fu Chiao Pai and he worked well.

Hmmmmm... where would Martial Arts go in a Palladium Fantasy setting? Here's my take...

The Western Empire is the oldest of the Human kingdoms and would probably have adopted a style of similarly ancient origins. I can see Tai Chi Ch'uan or even Shoa-Lin Kung Fu being rather widespread among the people there. Other possibilities include T'ang Su Karate or Te, especially among the more "common" folk. These forms are chosen based mostly on their overall age in the modern world, T'ang Su having existed since about the 7th century and Shao-Lin probably long before that. The existance of Shao-Lin also opens up the possibilities of all other forms of Kung-Fu to be available as well. I can also see Zanji Shinjinken Ryu and/or Gui Long Kung Fu being pretty popular among their military forces.
The Old Kingdom, being the monster infested land it is, is a bit more difficult to decide when it comes to any specific form. Initial choices include Liang Hsiung Kung Fu, Krav Mahga and Command Sambo... Rough and tumble in-your-face forms for people of a similar lifestyle (ie Trolls, Ogres, Giants, Orcs etc.) who respect power for the sake of power.
In the Yin-Sloth Jungles I can see Capoeria being pretty popular among the natives. Not to be stereotypical, and no offense intended, but jungles mean drums, drums mean rhythm and rhythm means a perfect fighting environment for masters of this form. I can also see Jujitsu and Brazilian Jiujitsu being popular here.
The Land of the South Winds and other southern kingdoms I see as a more refined place, culturally speaking, at least on the surface. Martial Arts of choice for this region of the world would probably revolve primarily around such forms as Savate, Pro Boxing (often considered a noble fighting form back in the day) Arnis, Zanji-Shinjinken Ryu (or at least a form of it that uses a rapier or longsword more than a katana to make it more like European style fencing) or Chi Hsuan Men.
The Eastern Territory is far too young and diversified to have any one Martial Art form of its own, but this opens the possibilities up to all the different options for specific forms to be chosen. This can stem mostly from the origins of the people of the Eastern Territory essentially being pioneers/explorers from other parts of the world branching out and settling into the "new lands". Popular forms would most likely be ones that essentially "combine" techniques from other forms to create something new. Moo Gi Gong, Shi Ba Ban Wu Yi, Jeet Kun Do, and Yu-Sool all fit this bill quite well, but pretty much any form is possible.
The Wolfen Empire, like the Eastern Territory, also suffers from the problem of youth when it comes to the people developing any set Martial Art form or style. However, they would most certainly take advantage of their natural defenses when training their people in a Martial Art form. Tiger, Leopard and Eagle Claw Kung Fu rank the top of the list for these. The fact that their Empire is pretty much based on the Roman Empire leaves a strong leaning toward Pancracean being developed as well, and their superb military strength leaves them wide open for a superior weapon based form being used, such as Gui Long Kung Fu or Zanji-Shinjinken Ryu.
The Bizantium Kingdom I see being a mix of everything in the world being thrown in. These are a pretty hardy folk that have probably seen more of the world then most and have taken and adapted forms and styles from everywhere. If you can find a form anywhere in the world, there's a good chance someone in Bizantium has seen it and/or studies/practices it.
Ophid's Grasslands I feel is worth mentioning because of one particular form; Ch'a Ch'uan Kung Fu. I don't know about anyone else's world, but in mine the people of this land are a lot like the ancient Mongolians, a fierce nomadic people who mastered the arts of combat from horseback. And this form is the only one that gives a Horsemanship skill (in fact, according to N&S pg. 163, PF characters with this form start with Horsemanship: Knight)

I think that about covers it... anything I missed?

frogboy wrote:Yes it does start with horsemanship knight, and when combined with the Palladium Long Bowmen can be a dastardly combatant on horse back. The one gripe I have with Martial arts (and magic users) in any game that Palladium offers (including Ninjas & Super spies) is that 99% of the time the players don't read and understand how the powers and ability's of the martial artist work. For example, "A level 15 wizard shoots a fire ball at you, what are you doing ?" PC says " Well I had mi chi gung up I am going to take it on the head" GM says " well you are a crispy critter now roll up a new character. PC says "Why ? I was using Chi Gung I am immune to fire !" GM says, "Yes you are, but only normal fire not magic ones. PC says "But the fire ball is not magic when it leaves the magic users hands" Yes, I have seen this argument made by a man who claims to be a genius. And here is another favorite, PC hits a bad guy with the art of breaking, PC rolls and hits the bad guy GM says "Wow, you tore that bad guy a new one, now you are out of actions and he is running off to fight again another day". PC says " well he better get his Chi looked into because I disrupted this much of his Chi". Gm says " No, you did not. You put a super bad ouch on him, but did nothing to his chi. Tamishewara don't damage chi like chi combat does. And it go's on and on. Martial arts (and magic) should only be allowed for PC's who read and understand the powers and ability's.

No Frog... that just comes from players being players. They only read what they want to read in an ability. If we outlawed the playing of characters because the player did not bother to read or understand the ability fully no one would be allowed to play any class or race.

frogboy wrote:I did not mean to sound harsh on that one. Guess I came off sounding like a jerk. If anything my rant proves that a GM should build the charactor with the guy or gal playing it. But it is a pain in the butt.

Might be a pain in the butt, but better one pain now than hundreds down the road getting him straightened out along the way

I'd allow it, but not toss it out willy nilly. My rules:
1: I must approve the style (no Tien-Hsueh Touch Mastry)
2: 1 style
3: Must be a men-at-arms, Squire, or Warrior Monk OCC
4: If your race is considered too undiciplined to learn magic, you're considered too undiciplined to learn an N&SS MA
5: This is most important. You better have a really good backstory that flows, makes sense, and involves true RP (if you say when I was born my parents were killed by ninjas, but they took me in and trained me as a ninja, and then my ninja clan was all killed and I'm the only ninja survivor)

Aaryq wrote:I'd allow it, but not toss it out willy nilly. My rules:
1: I must approve the style (no Tien-Hsueh Touch Mastry)
2: 1 style
3: Must be a men-at-arms, Squire, or Warrior Monk OCC
4: If your race is considered too undiciplined to learn magic, you're considered too undiciplined to learn an N&SS MA
5: This is most important. You better have a really good backstory that flows, makes sense, and involves true RP (if you say when I was born my parents were killed by ninjas, but they took me in and trained me as a ninja, and then my ninja clan was all killed and I'm the only ninja survivor)

I can only partially agree with you here, at least based on #4. Some Martial Art forms, while requiring some level of discipline, can be considered as viable for particularly "undisciplined races. A Troll or Ogre with Krav Mahga, for example, I could see; A brutal style for a brutal race. Or even Liang Hsiung "Demon Wrestling"... perfect for a monster races as well as humans and their allies. I do have to agree though, that some forms just cannot be learned by some races. A Goblin that's willing to go through the 20 years of training to learn Aikido? Yeah, right...