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I was just looking through the Rifts Book of Magic and came across something I do not recall seeing anywhere else. In the intro to Ocean Magic, it states that chanting just serves as a focus and you can cast magic with just deep concentration. You can only cast one spell per melee this way and it counts as 3 attacks.

I have some questions:

Would this only apply to Ocean Magic? (I don't see why it would)

Would it be reasonable to infer that a similar ruling would apply to hand motions? If so, how would you make it work?

What would it take to cast a spell without hand motions or chanting?

no

yes

soserus profiency (see throughthe glass darkly and rifter 30something) or a skill slot for the above mention ability (adding 3 APM to the cost for high level spells and doubling the APM cost for low level spells)

(edited to reflect the no hand waving reminder below.)

sennin wrote:I was just looking through the Rifts Book of Magic and came across something I do not recall seeing anywhere else. In the intro to Ocean Magic, it states that chanting just serves as a focus and you can cast magic with just deep concentration. You can only cast one spell per melee this way and it counts as 3 attacks.

I have some questions:

Would this only apply to Ocean Magic? (I don't see why it would)

Would it be reasonable to infer that a similar ruling would apply to hand motions? If so, how would you make it work?

What would it take to cast a spell without hand motions or chanting?

the hand motions are not and have never been required in Palladium...
(that stuff is for the rubes and to keep magic mysterious...[according to fluff])
the common thought of magic requiring hand motions (or somatic gestures if you will) is a hold over from that other RPG
all non-ritual spells are strictly invocations (verbal)
IIRC the wording seems to imply that this rule can be applied to any spell (of course the rule would need to be adjusted as it was published pre-RUE when spells took 1/2 a melee to cast).

I would say that hand motions are definitely required for spells that require you to actually aim at a target, though. Otherwise, the spell goes where your hand is.

Balabanto wrote:I would say that hand motions are definitely required for spells that require you to actually aim at a target, though. Otherwise, the spell goes where your hand is.

unless the spell itself states it requires a specific gesture none are required. (this is a big draw of palladium for those us who favor mages [the no somatic gestures and no material components that is]) and the magic mechanics of game systems.

now if you or your GM wish to include gestures that of course is your prerogative. (No rule is carved in stone.)

Spells needing spoken words is not reading 'fluff'. It is completely plainly stated rules and canon.

R:UE pg 189 under Casting spells (can you get any more rule specific as 'Casting Spells'?)

2. To cast a spell requires verbalization - the speaking of the spell invocation. The mantra of the spell must be spoken aloud and with authority. Hand gestures are usually part of the spell casting process that help focus and direct the mystic energy.

The bold was not me, it was bold in R:UE

You had RMB 5th edition?

So what? I bought it when it first came out. 1st printing. This isn't a pissing contest, where the person whose been around the longest wins. Or I'll just say I got yer stack o' books and then some more. And I am definately not a kid, I've been role-playing since the 70s.

I gave that R:UE page because it is the last major book (main book) with spell casting rules quite clearly spelled out. In all Palladium games (the main books) that included magic, it was required to speak words.

Looking at Palladium Fantasy 1st edition, we got on pg. 51: Spell magic relies on the speaking of arcane spells that are said to have their roots in the days when the Old Ones ruled the world. The properly spoken words can summon, direct, or unleash great forces in the blink of an eye. No components, no diagrams, no deity, and little, if any preparations are required; merely the spoken word.

So all the way from PFRPG 1rst edition to R:UE spoken words has ALWAYS been required for invocations. That's what the actual word invocation means. the 'voc' part is Latin for speak/say/tell/etc. It's what we get the words voice and vocation (one's vocation is one's 'calling'). I know this because one of my university degrees is in Latin

There is more to magic than just invocations. Some of them may or not require spoken words. But spoken words have always been required to cast spell magic/invocations.

BTS 1st edition pg 95: The spell itself is a string of words, much like a meditative mantra, which serve to help a mage concentrate and focus his thoughts. As usual, the real power lies with the practitioner of magic, but the right words are required to unleash that power. The mage must be truly confident and absolutely positive that the words, the spell, will create magic, or nothing will happen.

Palladium 2nd edition pg 182: Spell magic involves spoken incantations that serve as a focus to create and cast magic.

Nightspawn/Nightbane pg 124: Spell magic is spoken incantations that serve as a focus to create/cast magic.

TMNT Transdimentional TMNT (their book that has spells) pg 41 and HU pg 91, and HU 2nd edition each state: The spoken incantation invokes and ignites the mystic forces, while the wizard's force of will and concentration molds and directs it.

These are all the main books (except the TMNT, but it's their only one with magic). All the way from 1980s to today and each and every one of them states that to cast spell magic, words have to be spoken.

And btw; I'm not a rules lawyer in the least. But I am a GM who knows them and if/when I do change them, it goes down in writing and handed to each of my players on my changes. But 'no speaking' is definately a house rule and not part of Palladium canon or main rules.

While I try not to tout it much outside of the PF forums, I do quite a bit into the requirements to speak in Mysteries of Magic.

Simply put: I require people to speak in order to cast spells. It is a necessary part of spellcasting. The words can be whispered, but they must be above sub-vocalization. If underwater, you need to make arrangements to speak. If in space, then you have to speak, even if it won't travel in space.

Do you even know what the word canon is?

It is a law or body of laws. Established rules or criterea.-Webster's Dictionary

One book (Underseas), which was then copy and pasted to Rifts book of Magic does not canon make. After 2 paragraphs of saying spell magic must be spoken, it gives this one example of it not. That is NOT canon. The established laws and rules of Palladium books have since the beginning stated that invocations need to be spoken. As you blatently ignored, I listed books written before and after Underseas. This establishes a long line of the spoken rule to be canon.

Also there are many types of magic as I pointed out earlier. Ocean Magic is where the 'not needing to speak' is shown. This could very well be different than invocations, which are listed separately. The question asked is if a GM should let other magic have this non-speaking rule. And my answer is no. That it is, was, and will always be a requirement to spell magic invocations. If the GM wants to include Ocean magic as needing words and forget 1 paragraph, then fine. If not fine.

Anything else is a house rule and not canon.

ZorValachan wrote:Do you even know what the word canon is?

It is a law or body of laws. Established rules or criterea.-Webster's Dictionary

One book (Underseas), which was then copy and pasted to Rifts book of Magic does not canon make. After 2 paragraphs of saying spell magic must be spoken, it gives this one example of it not. That is NOT canon. The established laws and rules of Palladium books have since the beginning stated that invocations need to be spoken. As you blatently ignored, I listed books written before and after Underseas. This establishes a long line of the spoken rule to be canon.

Also there are many types of magic as I pointed out earlier. Ocean Magic is where the 'not needing to speak' is shown. This could very well be different than invocations, which are listed separately. The question asked is if a GM should let other magic have this non-speaking rule. And my answer is no. That it is, was, and will always be a requirement to spell magic invocations. If the GM wants to include Ocean magic as needing words and forget 1 paragraph, then fine. If not fine.

Anything else is a house rule and not canon.

and my point is/was that the wording in the ocean magic text is vague enough that it could be interpreted to be either for allowing all spells to be (as Mark put it) "sub-vocalized" or against it.

(and for the record) weather it sees print in one official book or one thousand official books its canon. to quote Websters same as you "It is a law or body of laws. Established rules or criteria."
now as I said the rule does need re-worked to fit with the new RUE casting rules even if you (the GM) do rule that it applies to only ocean magic otherwise ocean magic gets seriously gimped in comparison to all other forms.

Mephisto wrote:

Mark Hall wrote:While I try not to tout it much outside of the PF forums, I do quite a bit into the requirements to speak in Mysteries of Magic.

Simply put: I require people to speak in order to cast spells. It is a necessary part of spellcasting. The words can be whispered, but they must be above sub-vocalization. If underwater, you need to make arrangements to speak. If in space, then you have to speak, even if it won't travel in space.

I take it that is only for invocation magic. I'd imagine druidism, shamanism, and a ton of other magic disciplines would all have very widely varying rules on the casting and control of magic.

Your two example disciplines couldn't have been chosen more poorly. But I will say no more on that.

To ManDrake: I don't see a real problem with the ruling from Underseas. About the only situation in which I can see it applying (someone being unable to speak aloud) would be an absolute emergency situation. Even if you're hanging out in the ocean, wearing nothing but Breathe Without Air, you can vocalize... it won't be clear, but it's vocalization.

ManDrake13 wrote:The problem is when you are bound and gagged being pushed along in Coalition Containment Body Armor and you cast Escape to get out of it. Or Teleport Self, or Reduce Self. Suddenly there is no way to stop a mage with technology anymore. That's the concern. Kevin has built a dream of the Coalition conquering all the mages in the Megaverse on the notion that they can be stopped by being simply gagged and bound. If the Undersea rule stands that dream is no longer a reality and there will be a lot of magic haters here and everywhere else that will be screaming for blood as they always do. And their never ending whine fest will start up again about Magic being too powerful and there not being enough of an edge for technology and on and on and on. You read the boards here, you know what I'm talking about.

IF they can deeply concentrate. That means they get at least 15 seconds of uninterrupted concentration time (more for higher level spells), and pass the failure chances for spells while encased. Escape, for example, is a 5th level spell, meaning it takes 3 actions (three times as long as normal). However, it will only undo ONE lock or restraint ("What do you mean there are six locks on the armor?"), and is specifically stopped by the person being gagged. If there are any Dog Boys, Psi-stalkers, or even a few types of psychic sensitive in the area, they have three actions to get over there and hit your armor with a neural mace to stop you from casting.

They won't stop EVERYONE, but they'll be able to stop a whole heck of a lot with containment armor, or even three sets of handcuffs and two bandanas over a gag.

Bah! Face it, the Ocean Magic being cast without speaking was a desperate tack-on when someone had realized they'd inadvertently allowed non-aquatic races to become Ocean Wizards/Druids/whatnots. It's a lot simpler to force the mage to cast Breath Without Air or make up an amulet Speak Like a Fish. Or just leave the concentration requirement as an Ocean Magic only attribute.

pintocat!
Don't be silly. Of course the C.S. is still around. It's not like a Shifter can stop by Phase World, buy a dump truck, load it up with anti-matter cruise missles, have a dominated flunkie drive it through a rift into Chi-Town's power generation level and det...
Oh, wait.
Um, maybe he could.
Sorry.

Burulovesyou wrote: Otherwise have fun trying to cast in that nice environmental suit.

[man standing on the bow of a ship pouring ashes out of a boot/swimfin with tears running down his cheeks, speaks in a broken voice]
"He never should'a cast that fireball."

Mephisto wrote:

Mark Hall wrote:

Mephisto wrote:

Mark Hall wrote:While I try not to tout it much outside of the PF forums, I do quite a bit into the requirements to speak in Mysteries of Magic.

Simply put: I require people to speak in order to cast spells. It is a necessary part of spellcasting. The words can be whispered, but they must be above sub-vocalization. If underwater, you need to make arrangements to speak. If in space, then you have to speak, even if it won't travel in space.

I take it that is only for invocation magic. I'd imagine druidism, shamanism, and a ton of other magic disciplines would all have very widely varying rules on the casting and control of magic.

Your two example disciplines couldn't have been chosen more poorly. But I will say no more on that.

I'd like you to elaborate on that. Are you saying that there are not varying rules on the casting and control of magic for those two disciplines?

As a result of my contract, I can say no more.

ManDrake13 wrote:I'm going to be a bit blunt here. But for you kids just starting out RUE may seem like the definitive text on all things Rifts.

Very plainly, it's stated that new rules are to be taken over the old.

I also think hand gestures are a part of it as well. pg 21 of bom "Do all spells require words"...as stated, yes...but the example it gives "A spell developed by a race with 8 tenticles and speaking in the ultrasonic range." I think if it was just words, it probably wouldn't have mentioned the tenticles.

Actually, I think it was giving the range of magic that I don't think many (including myself) take into account. There's more to a spell than just a name and range. If you walk into a shop and ask to be taught "blinding flash" you're pretty much given the generic version. But from the way that sentence is described, it could and is more than likely learning to cast blinding flash from one mage may require you to always have a mirror in one hand, and another require you to hop on one leg.

Somewhere, I don't recall exactly, it states that many mages use hand gestures, but the are NOT required (except for throwing spell creations i.e. globes of fire, and wads of antimatter). Kind of like the all the hand waving Jedi do. For someone

Dark Brandon hit the nail on the head.

If it is one of the spells you 'learned' yourself (by gaining a level), it is words/gestures (or lack of gestures) you put into it. When you learn from another, you learn their form of it.

2 people doing blinding flash may cast it very differently, and it may even look a bit different, but if they both learned it from the same teacher or teachers that can trace their spell 'linage' back to a common teacher would cast it the same or with a little divergence. I think my mode of thinking came from Ars Magica and TORG in this.

It may also give reason for someone to learn the same spell more than once. The first time they had to spin around blindfolded and get a tack into a donkey's butt while singing the theme to the Lone Ranger, to get that 'speed of the horse' spell to go, while later he creates another version in which he just says 'Giddyup' while making his spurs jingle jangle jingle.

It's just that Palladium removes the listing and keeping track of spell components. The mirror doesn't 'poof' at the end of the spell if your doing Dark Brandon's hopping mirror spell.

Burulovesyou wrote:RUE pg 186 "Spell magic requires spoken incantations and hand gestures that serve as a focus to cast magic."

pg 189 "To cast a spell requires verbalization - the speaking of the spell invocation. The mantra of the spell must be spoken aloud and with authority. Hand gestures are usually part of the spell casting process that helps focus and direct the mystic energy."

That's what I've got. Doesn't really say specifically which gestures are used for, but that they are usually part of the spell.

the underlined parts are the key words here...
they indicate that gestures are often included but not really required.
Also while we are quoting books...

PG. 182 of PFMB states -
Spell magic involves spoken incantations that serve as a focus to create and cast magic.

PG. 318 of HU2 MB states -
Spell magic involves spoken incantations that serve as a focus to create and cast magic.

PG. 124 of NB MB states -
Spell magic involves spoken incantations that serve as a focus to create and cast magic.

None of these books make any reference to hand gestures what so ever.
Make of that what you will...

Damian Magecraft wrote:the underlined parts are the key words here...
they indicate that gestures are often included but not really required.

So...that leaves us where?

None of these books make any reference to hand gestures what so ever.
Make of that what you will...

I think it would make for an interesting random roll table for finding and learning magic. It shouldn't be too hard to come up with 100 different ways to cast a spell.

dark brandon wrote:I think it would make for an interesting random roll table for finding and learning magic. It shouldn't be too hard to come up with 100 different ways to cast a spell.

After all, there must be 50 ways to leave your lover.

Mark Hall wrote:

dark brandon wrote:I think it would make for an interesting random roll table for finding and learning magic. It shouldn't be too hard to come up with 100 different ways to cast a spell.

After all, there must be 50 ways to leave your lover.

My personal favorite: Never tell them you're leaving. Discovery is what makes life 'FUN'

dark brandon wrote:

Damian Magecraft wrote:the underlined parts are the key words here...
they indicate that gestures are often included but not really required.

So...that leaves us where?

It leaves us I believe with Invocations only requiring the spoken word.
But gestures and other components being common to (but not required) magic spells.

If I may paraphrase Henry Winkler's character from Waterboy, "Visualize and cast. Visualize and cast."

Khanibal wrote:If I may paraphrase Henry Winkler's character from Waterboy, "Visualize and cast. Visualize and cast."

I don't think it quite works that way. I think if you cut magic down to it's very base, you'd only need vocalization. By the wording of magic though, you could have 100's of ways to cast one spell.

In otherwords, if you learned to cast a spell that will have vocalization, and a dance step, no amount of "visualization" will remove the dance step from your spell. You would in fact need to go out and learn the spell all over again.

Khanibal wrote:If I may paraphrase Henry Winkler's character from Waterboy, "Visualize and cast. Visualize and cast."

Yes and no.

I will say no more.

Mark Hall wrote:

Khanibal wrote:If I may paraphrase Henry Winkler's character from Waterboy, "Visualize and cast. Visualize and cast."

Yes and no.

I will say no more.

tease

Mark Hall wrote:

Khanibal wrote:If I may paraphrase Henry Winkler's character from Waterboy, "Visualize and cast. Visualize and cast."

Yes and no.

I will say no more.

I can't wait.

Khanibal wrote:If I may paraphrase Henry Winkler's character from Waterboy, "Visualize and cast. Visualize and cast."

This was supposed to be humorous.
Anyone familiar with The Dresden Files, the novels, not the sub-par television show?
I like how it doesn't matter which words are used, just that they use words.

dark brandon wrote:In otherwords, if you learned to cast a spell that will have vocalization, and a dance step, no amount of "visualization" will remove the dance step from your spell. You would in fact need to go out and learn the spell all over again.

Exactly!

Khanibal wrote:

Khanibal wrote:If I may paraphrase Henry Winkler's character from Waterboy, "Visualize and cast. Visualize and cast."

This was supposed to be humorous.
Anyone familiar with The Dresden Files, the novels, not the sub-par television show?
I like how it doesn't matter which words are used, just that they use words.

Exactly, with the choice of words depending on the style the wizard learns or teaches themselves.

And based on the comments, theories, & evidence presented so far, I'm answering the OP with the following:

1. Since that only shows up in the description for Ocean Magic, then only Ocean Magic would benefit from the rule. However, given that most of the ocean races (dolphins, whales, etc.) already are capable of vocalization underwater (hello? Star Trek IV? whales singing in real life & in the movies?) -- not to mention that you can speak underwater (you just may not be able to hear it as anything but gibberish), & the rules only state that you have to say the words, not have them actually be intelligible (i.e. your invocations could just require you to say "hamana hamana" every time) -- I see no problem with throwing it out the window.

2. Depends on the spell. You can probably get away with no hand motions for most defensive spells, or spells that only affect the mage. Spells that rely on touch obviously require the mage to touch the target for them to be effective. And I'd probably also rule that any ranged spell -- especially offensive spells like Fire Bolt, Fire Ball, or Call Lightning -- will require the mage to at least point at the target.

3. House rules by the GM. Whether assessing additional P.P.E. penalties (i.e. x2 P.P.E. to omit vocalization or hand gestures, x3 to eliminate both), a chance of the spell failing (i.e. 20% chance of failure omitting gestures, 40% chance of failure omitting vocalization, -60% omitting both), or some other rule he wants to implement (i.e. you can eliminate hand gestures when you reach 5th level, & eliminate vocalization when you reach 10th level), there needs to be a method that not only prevents the misuse of dropping gestures & words from spellcasting, but also provides a rationalization as to why the majority of mages still use them.