What classes would you do for a new edition of N&S?

[Guest]

Since I've been playing around with changing the OCC availability in N&S myself, I wondered what other people considered essential OCCs and which ones were useless in terms of what a new edition of the game should include and dump.

[Sentinel]

I like all the Espionage, Free Agents, and Military OCCs of N&SS.
I like most of the Martial Arts OCCs of Mystic China, in particular, the Philosopher, Weapon Master, Blind Mystic, and Demon Hunter. I would like to see a revision of the Dedicated Martial Artist (one less oriented to a purely monastic life, and more current, like real life masters like Ed Parker), while the Worldly MA could stand to be altered slightly (they don't all need Basic Military, nor 3 free Physical Skills).

[Guest]

I like all the Espionage, Free Agents, and Military OCCs of N&SS.

Those poor gizmoteers.

I like most of the Martial Arts OCCs of Mystic China, in particular, the Philosopher, Weapon Master, Blind Mystic, and Demon Hunter.

Not really revelant to N&S itself though, fine if you're playing MC, but I'm talking about just the OCCs in N&S.

I would like to see a revision of the Dedicated Martial Artist (one less oriented to a purely monastic life, and more current, like real life masters like Ed Parker),

DMAs ARE oriented toward a purely monastic life. Ed Parker isn't a DMA.

while the Worldly MA could stand to be altered slightly (they don't all need Basic Military, nor 3 free Physical Skills).

I agree the WMA needs an overhaul, as does the DMA, but I don't agree with the way you seem to want to approach it.

[Library Ogre]

Since I've been playing around with changing the OCC availability in N&S myself, I wondered what other people considered essential OCCs and which ones were useless in terms of what a new edition of the game should include and dump.

Reduce the cyber-budget for Wired Agents. The $1,000,000 that they have was always WAY too much.

Personally, though, I would say that the real changes need to be at the martial art level... the worldly martial artist isn't a huge improvement over any other anyone else with a martial art. I would divide the martial arts into Exclusive (only DMAs), Primary (DMAs and WMAs), Secondary (DMAs, WMAs, and many other OCCs) and Agent. Exclusive MAs should be the coolest martial arts that require the most dedication and provide the most powers, but should require both selections of a DMA. A Primary should be a step above most martial arts, and hard to learn, but give you somewhat better bonuses and powers. Secondary Martial arts are just that... the Tae Kwon Dos of the world. Decent combat forms, but not much in terms of power or skills. And Agent forms are agent forms.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Dedicated and worldly martial artists are fine--but dedicated should have the higher starting SDC!

most free agents i'm ok with, as well as mercanries.

I feel there are too many Gizmoteer OCC's. Dreamer and Tinker is all you really needed.

I think also that Mystic China should be brought in line with skill program system rather than an OCC system, which makes it oddly incompatible with N&SS.

[Sentinel]

I like all the Espionage, Free Agents, and Military OCCs of N&SS.

Those poor gizmoteers.
I don't dislike them: I just get more use out of them in my HU oriented campaign.

I like most of the Martial Arts OCCs of Mystic China, in particular, the Philosopher, Weapon Master, Blind Mystic, and Demon Hunter.

Not really revelant to N&S itself though, fine if you're playing MC, but I'm talking about just the OCCs in N&S.
I just like to combine the two books, especially since Mystic China is more Martial Arts oriented.

I would like to see a revision of the Dedicated Martial Artist (one less oriented to a purely monastic life, and more current, like real life masters like Ed Parker),

DMAs ARE oriented toward a purely monastic life. Ed Parker isn't a DMA.
See, I find that unworkable in any campaign that isn't set in a Period Piece campaign. I do see guys like Ed Parker as dedicated martial artists, as that is the central focus of their lives: they do know more than just their fighting arts and a couple of secondary skills. DMAs should have to be exclusively hermetic fighting monks: otherwise, let's just re-name the OCC and make them Monks.

while the Worldly MA could stand to be altered slightly (they don't all need Basic Military, nor 3 free Physical Skills).

I agree the WMA needs an overhaul, as does the DMA, but I don't agree with the way you seem to want to approach it.

I want to make the WMA a little more flexible, and while I want to enhance versatility, I don't think they all need to have Basic Military (what about characters who never enter military service?), and with the ability to choose Skill Programs (unlike the DMA at current) they don't need the extra Physical Skills.

[Guest]

Reduce the cyber-budget for Wired Agents. The $1,000,000 that they have was always WAY too much.

Personally, I'm for dumping the Wired Agent entirely. It's just a lite version of the Cyber Agent, so there's really no need for it. Of course, I think the entire cybernetics aspect should be dumped from the primary game (though having it available as an option would still be good).

Personally, though, I would say that the real changes need to be at the martial art level... the worldly martial artist isn't a huge improvement over any other anyone else with a martial art. I would divide the martial arts into Exclusive (only DMAs), Primary (DMAs and WMAs), Secondary (DMAs, WMAs, and many other OCCs) and Agent. Exclusive MAs should be the coolest martial arts that require the most dedication and provide the most powers, but should require both selections of a DMA. A Primary should be a step above most martial arts, and hard to learn, but give you somewhat better bonuses and powers. Secondary Martial arts are just that... the Tae Kwon Dos of the world. Decent combat forms, but not much in terms of power or skills. And Agent forms are agent forms.

In other words, you want more Quickie versions of martial arts. I can't say I blame you. I've been looking at two or three different ways of having them included myself. I think the problem (with the revised edition) is that since so many of the other OCCs get martial arts, the really limited selection available to the martial artists classes hinders them to the point where there's no real reason to play them.

Dedicated and worldly martial artists are fine--but dedicated should have the higher starting SDC!

As I mentioned above, since they really don't get much in the way of martial arts compared to the other classes (which also have more skills available), they aren't as playable as the other classes.

most free agents i'm ok with, as well as mercanries.

I feel there are too many Gizmoteer OCC's. Dreamer and Tinker is all you really needed.

You want to keep the Commando Merc and Wired Agent, yet the Gizmoteers don't deserve a cybernetics class?!?

I think also that Mystic China should be brought in line with skill program system rather than an OCC system, which makes it oddly incompatible with N&SS.

Now that I agree with.

I want to make the WMA a little more flexible, and while I want to enhance versatility, I don't think they all need to have Basic Military (what about characters who never enter military service?), and with the ability to choose Skill Programs (unlike the DMA at current) they don't need the extra Physical Skills.

Both of the martial artist classes need to be overhauled to make them more flexible, playable and give them enhanced versatility.

[SoulofThunder]

The WMA and DMA OCC's sould be altered to be more like the mystic china OCC's . ( as should oll the OCC's to be more compatible with the rest of the megaverse)

the monastary DMA is tired to me as well.

modern day masters are not from monastaries for the most part.

Fumio Demura and Yip Man could be considered DMA.

while Bruce Lee is definately WMA.

NSS always came off like an 80's action movies to me. something like american ninja if you've seen that. NSS needs an update to better represent the gerne its a part of. not only the martial arts , but the technolgy real and fantasy aswell.

the only things i've ever seen used out of NSS are the martial arts anyway. and i've played with a few different groups and this seems to be a constant.

i'd love to see a major overall of NSS to bring it into the new millineum.

[Guest]

The WMA and DMA OCC's sould be altered to be more like the mystic china OCC's . ( as should oll the OCC's to be more compatible with the rest of the megaverse)

No, they shouldn't N&S's OCC setup is superior to the Rifts/PF standard, allowing you to have fewer classes with more flexibility.

the monastary DMA is tired to me as well.

modern day masters are not from monastaries for the most part.

Fumio Demura and Yip Man could be considered DMA.

while Bruce Lee is definately WMA.

NSS always came off like an 80's action movies to me. something like american ninja if you've seen that. NSS needs an update to better represent the gerne its a part of. not only the martial arts , but the technolgy real and fantasy aswell.

While a techonology/setting udpate is definitely needed, the purpose of this discussion is updating the OCCs.

the only things i've ever seen used out of NSS are the martial arts anyway. and i've played with a few different groups and this seems to be a constant.

Sadly this is often the case, despite N&S being the best possible core for dozens of genres with a little tweaking.

i'd love to see a major overall of NSS to bring it into the new millineum.

It's one of those things we'll have to do ourselves.

[SoulofThunder]

While a techonology/setting udpate is definitely needed, the purpose of this discussion is updating the OCCs.

updating the technology goes hand in hand with updating the merc/gizmoteer/cyborg characters. new gadgets and updates to the old ones is very appropriate to the disscussion. NSS is more than people kicking each other in the face. I'd like it to be more of its own game than a supplement to other SDC games its often used for.

heck , a new OCC much like the super soldier (lite) should be introduced.

the way the world seems to be going is moreso towards biomechanics than cybernetics anyway.

[Library Ogre]

Personally, I'm for dumping the Wired Agent entirely. It's just a lite version of the Cyber Agent, so there's really no need for it. Of course, I think the entire cybernetics aspect should be dumped from the primary game (though having it available as an option would still be good).

I don't have a problem with cyber being in the game, but dumping the Wired agent wouldn't be a bad idea. He was, simply, too good... he had a martial art form, a good number of skill programs (some from every category, IIRC), and cybernetics with a huge budget.

In other words, you want more Quickie versions of martial arts. I can't say I blame you. I've been looking at two or three different ways of having them included myself. I think the problem (with the revised edition) is that since so many of the other OCCs get martial arts, the really limited selection available to the martial artists classes hinders them to the point where there's no real reason to play them.

No, not more Quickie martial arts, but more granuality in the types of forms that are available. The Secondary forms would still be full martial arts... if your OCC allowed you a secondary form, and you chose Tae Kwon Do, you'd have a full version of Tae Kwon Do. But Tae Kwon Do doesn't have a lot of skills to learn, or martial arts powers that you pick up. It just has a set of solid, mundane, combat abilities. There are others that are similar... they're solid forms, but they don't have anything really difficult to learn.

[Sentinel]

I would like to see martial arts similar to the versions of Rifts: Japan available for non-martial arts OCCs. Often, it's not the style itself that creates inbalance, it's the martial arts powers that come with it. Cutting some of the Skills In Training for Martial Arts for Non-Martial Artists would also be a big step in the right direction.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Dedicated and worldly martial artists are fine--but dedicated should have the higher starting SDC!

As I mentioned above, since they really don't get much in the way of martial arts compared to the other classes (which also have more skills available), they aren't as playable as the other classes.

True. personally I think giving dedicated 3 martial arts and worldly 2 martial arts and keeping other aspects the same will balance it out fine.

most free agents i'm ok with, as well as mercanries.

I feel there are too many Gizmoteer OCC's. Dreamer and Tinker is all you really needed.

You want to keep the Commando Merc and Wired Agent, yet the Gizmoteers don't deserve a cybernetics class?!?

Upon re-reading the OCC's I see your point. Wired agent can be dropped for the Gizoid agent as they essentially fill hte same neice.

i'm more in favor of dropping the acadamy officer than the mercenary commando. I don't know why you hate it so much. an Officer i've found to be more of a third wheel in most games like this though.

as far as the gizmoteers I simply feel that their "cybernetic" one is more of a third wheel than anything. either dreamer or tinker are just as capable of making cybernetics, just adjust them with rules that let them do so.

[Tinker Dragoon]

Upon re-reading the OCC's I see your point. Wired agent can be dropped for the Gizoid agent as they essentially fill hte same neice.

Must... resist... innuendo...

[Guest]

I don't have a problem with cyber being in the game, but dumping the Wired agent wouldn't be a bad idea. He was, simply, too good... he had a martial art form, a good number of skill programs (some from every category, IIRC), and cybernetics with a huge budget.

For some reason, the clunky cybernetics in N&S have always seemed out of genre for the setting. They might as well have called it "Martial Artists & Cyberspies" for what it provides.

No, not more Quickie martial arts, but more granuality in the types of forms that are available. The Secondary forms would still be full martial arts... if your OCC allowed you a secondary form, and you chose Tae Kwon Do, you'd have a full version of Tae Kwon Do. But Tae Kwon Do doesn't have a lot of skills to learn, or martial arts powers that you pick up. It just has a set of solid, mundane, combat abilities. There are others that are similar... they're solid forms, but they don't have anything really difficult to learn.

I don't agree with your reasoning on this one. Simply because Tae Kwon Do is too powerful a style to make a "secondary form" It's on par with Thai Kick Boxing for what it does provide.

[SNIP]
i'm more in favor of dropping the acadamy officer than the mercenary commando. I don't know why you hate it so much.

I've explained it, in depth, several times already.

an Officer i've found to be more of a third wheel in most games like this though.

That's odd, the Academy Officer is the military class I use the most, followed closely by the Veteran Grunt.

as far as the gizmoteers I simply feel that their "cybernetic" one is more of a third wheel than anything. either dreamer or tinker are just as capable of making cybernetics, just adjust them with rules that let them do so.

Gizoids aren't about MAKING cybernetics, they're about having cybernetics. If you're dumping them, you might as well dump all the other cybernetically empowered OCCs while you're at it (something I'm not necessarily opposed to).

[Nekira Sudacne]

as far as the gizmoteers I simply feel that their "cybernetic" one is more of a third wheel than anything. either dreamer or tinker are just as capable of making cybernetics, just adjust them with rules that let them do so.

Gizoids aren't about MAKING cybernetics, they're about having cybernetics. If you're dumping them, you might as well dump all the other cybernetically empowered OCCs while you're at it (something I'm not necessarily opposed to).

it just seems to me that they are just unneccary. I don't personally see the value in them. I can look it over and see no real point, whereas the wired or gizoid I do.

[Sentinel]

I use the Academy Officer and Veteran Grunt more than any other Military OCC.

Thinking about the Gizmoteer and Wired Agents, I would really just want them to be unique: cyber-enhanced spies should be different from HU or Rifts characters, and in more ways than just their budgets.

[Sentinel]

I use the Academy Officer and Veteran Grunt more than any other Military OCC.

Thinking about the Gizmoteer and Wired Agents, I would really just want them to be unique: cyber-enhanced spies should be different from HU or Rifts characters, and in more ways than just their budgets.

I think that the cyber-enhancement of the spies is way over done, there really should have been only one OCC that focused on it. The Spy genera is hardly over ran with with cyborgs. Spys usally really on social engineering and other SKILLS.

I am in agreement for the most part.

[Guest]

I use the Academy Officer and Veteran Grunt more than any other Military OCC.

Thinking about the Gizmoteer and Wired Agents, I would really just want them to be unique: cyber-enhanced spies should be different from HU or Rifts characters, and in more ways than just their budgets.

I think that the cyber-enhancement of the spies is way over done, there really should have been only one OCC that focused on it. The Spy genera is hardly over ran with with cyborgs. Spys usally really on social engineering and other SKILLS.

I am in agreement for the most part.

And GADGETS, spies are notorious for having them.

[sinestus]

i firmly believe N&SS (and most of palladium) should move away from the OCC locked setup...

HU works fine without OCCs.... N&SS could move that way too...

[Guest]

as far as the gizmoteers I simply feel that their "cybernetic" one is more of a third wheel than anything. either dreamer or tinker are just as capable of making cybernetics, just adjust them with rules that let them do so.

Gizoids aren't about MAKING cybernetics, they're about having cybernetics. If you're dumping them, you might as well dump all the other cybernetically empowered OCCs while you're at it (something I'm not necessarily opposed to).

it just seems to me that they are just unneccary. I don't personally see the value in them. I can look it over and see no real point, whereas the wired or gizoid I do.

You see no point to them, but you do, I love it.

[Sentinel]

I use the Academy Officer and Veteran Grunt more than any other Military OCC.

Thinking about the Gizmoteer and Wired Agents, I would really just want them to be unique: cyber-enhanced spies should be different from HU or Rifts characters, and in more ways than just their budgets.

I think that the cyber-enhancement of the spies is way over done, there really should have been only one OCC that focused on it. The Spy genera is hardly over ran with with cyborgs. Spys usally really on social engineering and other SKILLS.

I am in agreement for the most part.

And GADGETS, spies are notorious for having them.

Yes.
Gadgets, as opposed to cybernetics.

[Nekira Sudacne]

as far as the gizmoteers I simply feel that their "cybernetic" one is more of a third wheel than anything. either dreamer or tinker are just as capable of making cybernetics, just adjust them with rules that let them do so.

Gizoids aren't about MAKING cybernetics, they're about having cybernetics. If you're dumping them, you might as well dump all the other cybernetically empowered OCCs while you're at it (something I'm not necessarily opposed to).

it just seems to me that they are just unneccary. I don't personally see the value in them. I can look it over and see no real point, whereas the wired or gizoid I do.

You see no point to them, but you do, I love it.

I have no problem with cyvernetics, I see a point to them, I simply see no point in giving them to an inventor.

[Nekira Sudacne]

i firmly believe N&SS (and most of palladium) should move away from the OCC locked setup...

HU works fine without OCCs.... N&SS could move that way too...

except that the HU catagories are functionally identical to an OCC

[SoulofThunder]

NSS is seems to based on the cold war. in the "information" age new types of spies and technology , even more so in the fantasy spy genre.

new OCC's

Data Miner - take hacking to a hold new level. a hacker merc if you will.
specializing in capturing , buying ,selling information to the highest bidder.
( yes , one can argue "with the right skill , anyone can do this" , but that is true with any OCC . like all the others , this one be specialized for his/her aspect of the game. loosely based on the decker from SR)

Biomechanical/ Bio-enhanced spy- ina world where sensing technology is as abundant is air , why go with cybernetics. a more organic , stealthy approach is to enhance the spy with what she already has. chemical/genetic enhancement is here. the concept of clunky cybernetics/bionics is a thing of the past with Robbie the Robot.

ill come up with somemore later and expand on 'em if i get some time.

[Sentinel]

i firmly believe N&SS (and most of palladium) should move away from the OCC locked setup...

HU works fine without OCCs.... N&SS could move that way too...

except that the HU catagories are functionally identical to an OCC

The big difference being that any Power catagory can select the skills and programs of their choice, instead of being locked in to a specific set of selections by their OCC. Thus, you can make a mutant with a Military background, or a Scholarly background based on skill selections.
OCCs don't give you that degree of flexibility.

[Juankis]

The big difference being that any Power catagory can select the skills and programs of their choice, instead of being locked in to a specific set of selections by their OCC. Thus, you can make a mutant with a Military background, or a Scholarly background based on skill selections.
OCCs don't give you that degree of flexibility.[/quote]

But considering some of the players out there, this is at best be a mixed blessing.
Plus most N&SS OCCs do give you skill program selections on top of the base skills.

[Sentinel]

The big difference being that any Power catagory can select the skills and programs of their choice, instead of being locked in to a specific set of selections by their OCC. Thus, you can make a mutant with a Military background, or a Scholarly background based on skill selections.
OCCs don't give you that degree of flexibility.

But considering some of the players out there, this is at best be a mixed blessing.
Plus most N&SS OCCs do give you skill program selections on top of the base skills.[/quote]

Yes, N&SS OCCs are more along the lines of HU Education Bonus Skill Selections.
Mystic China on the other hand was more like the OCCs of Rifts.

[SoulofThunder]

this may be a point of preference , but ill the OCC system better than the free-form" classes. OCC's are more specialists of wha they do and lack training in other areas. this allows other folks time to shine when thier specialty come into play.

no one likes the the "everyman" character that can do just about what everyone can do and then can do it better.

RPG'ing is supposed to be a team sport. spys should be better at spying that a merc soldier and at the same time that merc soldier shuld be better at tactics that the same spy.

[Juankis]

Exactly "Everyman" or "everythologist" (as we call them) are annoying, even more annoying is the character that has no abilites whatsoever to survive in a real world, where everything they take is phisycal and weapon skills.

[Guest]

i firmly believe N&SS (and most of palladium) should move away from the OCC locked setup...

HU works fine without OCCs.... N&SS could move that way too...

except that the HU catagories are functionally identical to an OCC

The big difference being that any Power catagory can select the skills and programs of their choice, instead of being locked in to a specific set of selections by their OCC.

Yes, I'm sure the Hardware, Physical Training, and Special Training categories agree with you.

Thus, you can make a mutant with a Military background, or a Scholarly background based on skill selections.
OCCs don't give you that degree of flexibility.

There's no reason why they should. OCC is "Occupational Character Class". It's a specifically designed occupation, which should be generally locked into a specific set of skill selections. The N&S approach works well with skill programs simply because it allows you to keep the number of O.C.C.s down without sacrificing the ability to play a wide variety occupations. Take a military character for example, since you can choose different military skill programs, the basic OCC covers anything from a basic sailor to a special forces operative, fighter pilot (land or sea based), tank driver, grunt, artillery specialist, technician, or even a corpsman. (Admittedly, expanding the skill programs available really helps with that, but it's a lot easier to generate a new skill program than it is to generate a whole new OCC, not too mention being less space intensive than say, the Rifts OCC system.) In N&S you're not making a mutant with a Military or Scholarly background, you're making a human with an espionage, martial arts, or military occupation.

[Sentinel]

i firmly believe N&SS (and most of palladium) should move away from the OCC locked setup...

HU works fine without OCCs.... N&SS could move that way too...

except that the HU catagories are functionally identical to an OCC

The big difference being that any Power catagory can select the skills and programs of their choice, instead of being locked in to a specific set of selections by their OCC.

Yes, I'm sure the Hardware, Physical Training, and Special Training categories agree with you.

Physical Training characters actually get to select the majority of their skills, although they do have their Physical Skills inbuilt.
The Analytical Genius has a locked in set of skills, but the other Hardware characters do not: yes, they do have special skills common to their catagory, but they can choose other skills as per usual.

Thus, you can make a mutant with a Military background, or a Scholarly background based on skill selections.
OCCs don't give you that degree of flexibility.

There's no reason why they should. OCC is "Occupational Character Class". It's a specifically designed occupation, which should be generally locked into a specific set of skill selections. The N&S approach works well with skill programs simply because it allows you to keep the number of O.C.C.s down without sacrificing the ability to play a wide variety occupations. Take a military character for example, since you can choose different military skill programs, the basic OCC covers anything from a basic sailor to a special forces operative, fighter pilot (land or sea based), tank driver, grunt, artillery specialist, technician, or even a corpsman. (Admittedly, expanding the skill programs available really helps with that, but it's a lot easier to generate a new skill program than it is to generate a whole new OCC, not too mention being less space intensive than say, the Rifts OCC system.) In N&S you're not making a mutant with a Military or Scholarly background, you're making a human with an espionage, martial arts, or military occupation.

The manner in which OCCs in N&SS makes them compatible to HUII. This is one of the things that I actually like about N&SS, and wish Mystic China had followed suit.
With GM approval, a mutant can be built with the same skills available to an Academy Officer (for example), if one is combining the two games.

[sinestus]

i firmly believe N&SS (and most of palladium) should move away from the OCC locked setup...

HU works fine without OCCs.... N&SS could move that way too...

except that the HU catagories are functionally identical to an OCC

not really

asside from the "Special Training" and "Hardware" catagories, (which even then are just clusters of skill selections and often accompanied by additional skill programs not restricted like an OCC)
all the others give the player free reign over their skill selections without forcing them into a static template.

in addition HU assumes that any hero can take time out of their schedule to learn new 'occ' skills by entering into training.


N&SS could mimic this by making programs more generic and following an "education level" over an OCC
thus better trained agents (like the operative/gadgeteer/etc...) get more programs, but can still define what kind of agent they are... so instead of having to devine "gadgeteer" and "operative" you just have one catch-all education level what would allow a player to build themselves as one or the other.... or as a mix of the two...


then, in addition, you have the free-range development of classes...
instead of "on darn, i can't score more skills till level 5..." it's more realistic on the matter of an agent with a couple months of down time can take some intensive training and pick up a new program to expand his abilities...

yes, i get the idea that someone's "occupation" tends to focus the skills they select...
except in modern days...

gone are the days when an engineering specialist can advance in the field on engineering skills alone... now they have to learn management skills, technical skill, and possibly even languages and more...

with an improvement in education, people are expected to not only cover a wider variety of skills, but to constantly expand 'em...

i got a buddy in the army who was basically told that the day he stopped expanding his education and training was the day a cap would form on his possibilities for promotion outside a war...
same basic idea.

you can master all the skills for a profession (at least to the point to count as a professional) pretty quick (compared to expected lifespan....) why wouldn't someone working on being a "super spy" master multiple careers? ...
(especially if he's gona try to use other careers as covers...)

[Mantisking]

Originally posted by sinestus.
i got a buddy in the army who was basically told that the day he stopped expanding his education and training was the day a cap would form on his possibilities for promotion outside a war.

It's always been that way. The more you have on your resume in the military the better you look to the brass. It's part of the "Up or Out" culture.

[Sentinel]

I really like the Skill Programs for Military and Espionage characters in N&SS: I use those in the alternative tio the somewhat lackluster and generic programs found in HU. I also use the SKill Programs and skills found in Guns For Hire (Rifter #25).

[Guest]

I really like the Skill Programs for Military and Espionage characters in N&SS: I use those in the alternative tio the somewhat lackluster and generic programs found in HU. I also use the SKill Programs and skills found in Guns For Hire (Rifter #25).

The ones that have even more skills than the high end military skill programs from N&S? I don't use them.

[Sentinel]

I really like the Skill Programs for Military and Espionage characters in N&SS: I use those in the alternative tio the somewhat lackluster and generic programs found in HU. I also use the SKill Programs and skills found in Guns For Hire (Rifter #25).

The ones that have even more skills than the high end military skill programs from N&S? I don't use them.

They've never thrown things out of whack for me.
It makes it easier to build an Astronaut/Cosmonaut, or other specialist with a military orientation. Since HUII only has two Military Skill Programs, it's a great addition to those characters as well.
Since the skill programs can easily be backfitted to existing N&SS characters, it's not like they get shortchanged. In any event, it leaves military OCCs from N&SS in possession of more skills than HU characters that may be crossed over, so it works out.

[Guest]

I really like the Skill Programs for Military and Espionage characters in N&SS: I use those in the alternative tio the somewhat lackluster and generic programs found in HU. I also use the SKill Programs and skills found in Guns For Hire (Rifter #25).

The ones that have even more skills than the high end military skill programs from N&S? I don't use them.

They've never thrown things out of whack for me.
It makes it easier to build an Astronaut/Cosmonaut, or other specialist with a military orientation. Since HUII only has two Military Skill Programs, it's a great addition to those characters as well.
Since the skill programs can easily be backfitted to existing N&SS characters, it's not like they get shortchanged. In any event, it leaves military OCCs from N&SS in possession of more skills than HU characters that may be crossed over, so it works out.

Shortchanged? No. Munched up, yes.

Of course, with the availability of http://www.geocities.com/kuseru/programs.html I've never really needed for skill programs (though I should update that again for those new skill programs that have been developed over the last few years).

[Sentinel]

I really like the Skill Programs for Military and Espionage characters in N&SS: I use those in the alternative tio the somewhat lackluster and generic programs found in HU. I also use the SKill Programs and skills found in Guns For Hire (Rifter #25).

The ones that have even more skills than the high end military skill programs from N&S? I don't use them.

They've never thrown things out of whack for me.
It makes it easier to build an Astronaut/Cosmonaut, or other specialist with a military orientation. Since HUII only has two Military Skill Programs, it's a great addition to those characters as well.
Since the skill programs can easily be backfitted to existing N&SS characters, it's not like they get shortchanged. In any event, it leaves military OCCs from N&SS in possession of more skills than HU characters that may be crossed over, so it works out.

Shortchanged? No. Munched up, yes.

I accept Johns' experience in the assessment of skills for military OCCs and Skill Programs. They didn't seem excessive, and well thought out (I liked removing the extra Physical Skill from Basic Miltary for example: I was getting players with Gymnastics, using their Military training as a justification).

Of course, with the availability of http://www.geocities.com/kuseru/programs.html I've never really needed for skill programs (though I should update that again for those new skill programs that have been developed over the last few years).

It was easier to take advantage of the Rifter than websites, at the time.
Even now, I prefer to use books over the computer.

[Guest]

I accept Johns' experience in the assessment of skills for military OCCs and Skill Programs. They didn't seem excessive, and well thought out (I liked removing the extra Physical Skill from Basic Miltary for example: I was getting players with Gymnastics, using their Military training as a justification).

That's funny, I had the opposite reaction entirely. They seemed excessive and not well thought out to me, especially with several new skills that duplicated existing ones for no point. As I've got my own military experience, his assessment didn't affect me one way or the other.

That's not to say the entire article was bad, there was some good stuff in there, but the overloaded skill programs weren't among them.

[Mantisking]

Originally posted by Kuseru.
Since I've been playing around with changing the OCC availability in N&S myself, I wondered what other people considered essential OCCs and which ones were useless in terms of what a new edition of the game should include and dump.

Dump everything that was added in for the Revised edition. Turn the Private Investigator into a skill program. Keep cybernetics because you can use them for a Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex type game.

[Guest]

Originally posted by Kuseru.
Since I've been playing around with changing the OCC availability in N&S myself, I wondered what other people considered essential OCCs and which ones were useless in terms of what a new edition of the game should include and dump.

Dump everything that was added in for the Revised edition.

Yeah, the three new classes didn't really add anyting.

Turn the Private Investigator into a skill program. Keep cybernetics because you can use them for a Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex type game.

No you can't, GitS:SAC has bionics.

[Mantisking]

Originally posted by me.
Keep cybernetics because you can use them for a Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex type game.

Originally posted by Kuseru.
No you can't, GitS:SAC has bionics.

Whatever.

[Sentinel]

Well, should N&SS have both Cybernetics and Bionics?

[Glistam]

Well, should N&SS have both Cybernetics and Bionics?

What kinds of bionic characters would you want to create in a N&SS setting that you couldn't create utilizing the HU2 bionic category?

To be honest, I liked the fact that the N&SS limited bionics seemed more "realistic" than the HU2 bionics.

[Sentinel]

Well, should N&SS have both Cybernetics and Bionics?

What kinds of bionic characters would you want to create in a N&SS setting that you couldn't create utilizing the HU2 bionic category?

To be honest, I liked the fact that the N&SS limited bionics seemed more "realistic" than the HU2 bionics.

That was why I submitted it as a question rather than a suggestion.
On one hand, I would suggest that not everyone will want to combine N&SS and HU, but some will want to.
Thus, I'd suggest making any cybernetics and bionics available to N&SS players in their main book, if it's going to be available at all.

I suppose there are players who might like a wider variety of bionics and a wider variety of power levels for both cybernetics and bionics, that don't necessarily approach HUII power levels, but are greater than the current N&SS standards.

[Glistam]

Full fledged cyborgs, no, but what about folks who have submitted themselves to some partial reconstruction. You could have a whole cult dedicated to improving on the human body in this way, and their limited funds prevent them from all being full combat cyborgs. But you'd have a guy with bionic arms, one with legs, one with enhanced senses, etcetera. I could see that fitting well in a Ninja's and Superspies universe.

[Sentinel]

Sort of like The Six Million Dollar Man, or the Bionic Woman from the 70s.

[sinestus]

Full fledged cyborgs, no, but what about folks who have submitted themselves to some partial reconstruction. You could have a whole cult dedicated to improving on the human body in this way, and their limited funds prevent them from all being full combat cyborgs. But you'd have a guy with bionic arms, one with legs, one with enhanced senses, etcetera. I could see that fitting well in a Ninja's and Superspies universe.

lol... like the uh...
Bionic Six?
or Galaxy Rangers?

[Glistam]

Six Million Dollar Man, Bionic Six, The Bionic Woman, they were inspiration. I used to love the Bionic Six, I'm not sure their super heroics would fit in N&S, but a villianous group similar to them that was a little more low key certainly would, I think. In fact, I'm off to work on fleshing that out.