Crush Depths and Pressurization question.

[UR Leader Hobbes]

Ok got a quick question..

Here was the situation.. A dragon with two people riding on his back is being chased by an air elemental over the ocean. Deciding the best way to avoid the elemental is to dive in teh water the Dragon takes a breath, grabs the two people, and puts them in his mouth..

Well the dragon can't swim.. So he flys into the water and begins to sink like a stone. Now inside the dragons mouth (Which isn't pressurized nor fully enviromental) the two people have a bit of air..

My question is thus..

How deep down does the dragon have to go before pressurization of the air begins to effect the people in his mouth. ALso how deep can the dragon go before he implodes due to pressure?

[Adam of the Old Kingdom]

if dogs can instinctively swim, why not dragons.

yes, I agree with the US navy. but you have to remember to exhale the whole way up.
even still, at that depth you can pop ear drums if your not doing something right.

the free dive world record is 160m (525ft). and crushing is not the problem, it's Oxgen.
the lungs have collapsed from pressure so the body is running off it's own efficiency and internal supply. calmness and oxygen conservation is the key.
Also, when resurfacing, at some depth (maybe 20m) the lungs will stop being compressed by the water and start drawing gas out of the blood and this can cause blackouts.

with the dragon being a land animal and creature of magic I would say it can handle itself just as easily at depth as a whale.

[Sentinel]

I tend to use some of the depth guidelines found in Rifts:Underseas, but for a Dragon (who could cast spells like Swin as a Fish, or metamoph into a more suitable shape) depth shouldn't be too much trouble. They are triple tough after all.

[J. Lionheart]

I don't imagine a dragon would sink in water unless it was quite dead, and perhaps decaying a bit. With the amount of empty, bouyant, space inside, they'd float unless they actively tried to do otherwise.

As for crush depth... ain't gonna happen to a dragon, in my book. They are super-powerful creatures of magic with skin and bones stronger than a modern tank's steel armor.

Finally, about the folks in the dragon's mouth. The lack of water inside the mouth suggests a pressurized seal to me. The air inside retains a state very similar to that on the surface... perhaps a bit pressurized, but not dangerously so, just like a submarine.

[The Beast]

I could have sworn that Rifts: Underseas had how far down a dragon can go before being crushed from the water pressure. Wasn't it 2 or 3 miles?

[Adam of the Old Kingdom]

I could have sworn that Rifts: Underseas had how far down a dragon can go before being crushed from the water pressure. Wasn't it 2 or 3 miles?

but in rifts, a dragon is far tougher, being a magic creature in a magic enriched world.

[Sentinel]

I could have sworn that Rifts: Underseas had how far down a dragon can go before being crushed from the water pressure. Wasn't it 2 or 3 miles?

but in rifts, a dragon is far tougher, being a magic creature in a magic enriched world.

I would suggest that dragon in PFRPG is proportionately just as powerful, and their supertough bodies can survive depths equal to Rifts Underseas.

Throw Megadamage away: it's crap.

[UR Leader Hobbes]

if dogs can instinctively swim, why not dragons.

Well first dogs are mamals. Also they don't have to pick skills.. Dragons do. Wings are meant for flying, not swimming. If dragons were meant to swim natually they would have fins.

with the dragon being a land animal and creature of magic I would say it can handle itself just as easily at depth as a whale.

Thats pretty fair..

Also, I don't see why a dragon would sink. I would assume they'd float, like essentially every other living thing not intended for life underwater.

Well there is one problem. The dragon in question dove into the water to evade a persuit. Now if you toss a human into the deep sea water who has no idea how to swim then they aren't going to be able to keep afloat for very long.

I tend to use some of the depth guidelines found in Rifts:Underseas, but for a Dragon (who could cast spells like Swin as a Fish, or metamoph into a more suitable shape) depth shouldn't be too much trouble. They are triple tough after all.

We looked and most powerarmors can only last down to 1000 ft. Not even a mile. Unfortunately the dragon in question has yet to learn those spells. The depth question arises partly due to the actions taken by a player and also something a water elemental may do as a fightng tactic. Afterall elementals being made of water have no crush depth.

As for crush depth... ain't gonna happen to a dragon, in my book. They are super-powerful creatures of magic with skin and bones stronger than a modern tank's steel armor.

Even modern day subs have crush depths. Dragons can only go so deep. Then sooner or later the force and pressure from all the water will cause them to implode.

[Sentinel]

if dogs can instinctively swim, why not dragons.

Well first dogs are mamals. Also they don't have to pick skills.. Dragons do. Wings are meant for flying, not swimming. If dragons were meant to swim natually they would have fins.

They can metamorph naturally though. Those wings could become fins.

with the dragon being a land animal and creature of magic I would say it can handle itself just as easily at depth as a whale.

Thats pretty fair..

Also, I don't see why a dragon would sink. I would assume they'd float, like essentially every other living thing not intended for life underwater.

Well there is one problem. The dragon in question dove into the water to evade a persuit. Now if you toss a human into the deep sea water who has no idea how to swim then they aren't going to be able to keep afloat for very long.

Dragons get skills in a manner that humans do not: they learn a bunch instinctively, while humans have to be taught. In any event, see my point about metamorphing.

I tend to use some of the depth guidelines found in Rifts:Underseas, but for a Dragon (who could cast spells like Swim as a Fish, or metamoph into a more suitable shape) depth shouldn't be too much trouble. They are triple tough after all.

We looked and most powerarmors can only last down to 1000 ft. Not even a mile. Unfortunately the dragon in question has yet to learn those spells. The depth question arises partly due to the actions taken by a player and also something a water elemental may do as a fightng tactic. Afterall elementals being made of water have no crush depth.

There are creatures however who can dive deeper than that. I am more likely to compare a dragon to another living creature than to a technological device.

As for crush depth... ain't gonna happen to a dragon, in my book. They are super-powerful creatures of magic with skin and bones stronger than a modern tank's steel armor.

Even modern day subs have crush depths. Dragons can only go so deep. Then sooner or later the force and pressure from all the water will cause them to implode.

Perhaps, but again, you're comparing a dragon to a machine. There are creatures who live at depths submarines can't achieve. Use those as guidelines.

[Thinyser]

crush damage only applies to rigid structures that contian a gas. subs, power armor, etc.

human lungs will colapse at depth (as was mentioned) but other than that there is no real harm. marine mamals are designed differntly but their lugs will also be compressed at depth...also without harm to the animal. Its part of mamal's dive reflex.

[UR Leader Hobbes]

Ok how ow did it go from a air elemental to a water elemental just because it plunges in after him doesn't mean they become there kin, Also every living thing with feet or in this case claws can swim its wings have nothing to do with look at a dragons claws some time they are webs Ie built for swimming

So every living thing with feet huh. Funny sense people sometimes drown. Another iroinic thing is that people actually learn how to swim. Swimming isn't instinctive to beings of higher intelligence.

OK Page 1 of the PFRPG has a dragon right on it.. Doesn't look like webbing. Looks like claws. How about that Hydra on page 10. It's claws aren't webbed. PG 42 has one.. Doesn't look like any webbing on that dragon.. Best picture of all is on 278.. That sucker has clawed hands and deffinately not webbed hands.. At best he has as much as your average human.

Sure humans even have webbing in their hands, albiet not a whole lot, but not everyone knows how to swim. So unless you can show me a picure in one of the PFRPG books that shows a draggon with webbed hands then your simply dead wrong.

OK first up the background is that teh players were going to be attacking a group of Bizantium ships (One stone three others) which are set for war. As they normally have warlocks with them, it only makes sense that they would have some elementals about to thwart air and water foes.

The Air elemental didn't persue once they hit the water.. The water elemental did however attack at that point.

as for crush depth we are talking about this dragon as if it were made from stone sorry there is this thing called buoyancy it is were if some thing has air in it. It will eventually float or stabilize at a certain depth, And dragons are a pretty big lung capacity if you ask me. so they should not have to worry about crush depth unless you put a cork in your dragon players

Yes and there is also this thing called momentum. You dive from above cloud cover and splash down through the surface of the water then your gonna sink at a pretty decent rate of speed.

Added to the fact that if you have no idea how to manuver in the watter. (Swimming is different then flying) Your not going to be going strait up to the surface. And ineffective movements don't promote going up while your underwater.

Dreagons also aren't shaped like boats either. Nor fish or whales. So the whole bouancy thing is sort of moot. Keep in mind, even a dragon can onlly hold his or her breath for so long. While they can't drown nor will they have to exhale from exertion they will have to exhale sooner or later from pressure.

[UR Leader Hobbes]

crush damage only applies to rigid structures that contian a gas. subs, power armor, etc.

human lungs will colapse at depth (as was mentioned) but other than that there is no real harm. marine mamals are designed differntly but their lugs will also be compressed at depth...also without harm to the animal. Its part of mamal's dive reflex.

Dragons aren't mamals. If any life form they would be more akin to reptiles as they have scales and hatch from eggs.

[J. Lionheart]

Yes and there is also this thing called momentum. You dive from above cloud cover and splash down through the surface of the water then your gonna sink at a pretty decent rate of speed.

A bullet fired from a gun directly into a tank of water loses any kind of significant velocity in 10 to 15 feet (if it didn't, police forensic water tanks would be useless). A dragon is going a heck of a lot slower, and has a heck of a lot more drag. Way more mass behind it, so yes, it'll go down a ways, but not hundreds of feet.

Also, you don't need to know how to swim to be able to float. Simply ball up and relax (or lie flat and relax) and you'll come to the surface.

Keep in mind, even a dragon can onlly hold his or her breath for so long. While they can't drown nor will they have to exhale from exertion they will have to exhale sooner or later from pressure.

Or they could cast "Breathe without air" and make the whole thing moot. Every single adult dragon that can fly, with the exception of the Ultucan and Cockatrice (neither of whom would work with a player party), can cast that spell. Even if they don't feel like casting that spell, they also all have a natural teleport power. Teleport straight up into the air, and voila, flying again.

They also have many other spells and natural abilities that could be useful here. Any dragon or dragon-player that can't figure a way out this non-problem deserves to die, and get a Darwin award for their efforts.

[Thinyser]

crush damage only applies to rigid structures that contian a gas. subs, power armor, etc.

human lungs will colapse at depth (as was mentioned) but other than that there is no real harm. marine mamals are designed differntly but their lugs will also be compressed at depth...also without harm to the animal. Its part of mamal's dive reflex.

Dragons aren't mamals. If any life form they would be more akin to reptiles as they have scales and hatch from eggs.

I guess my point is that they are not a "rigid" structure IMO.

I assume that things like those would have the reflex too...there are iguanas that dive and eat alge, and sea snakes...so I would assume that they too have something of the sort happening to them.

But who knows? And would this even apply about dinosaurs and dragons?

I think that the mechanism (if dragons have lungs) would work the same.

[UR Leader Hobbes]

Also, you don't need to know how to swim to be able to float. Simply ball up and relax (or lie flat and relax) and you'll come to the surface.

Not everyone knows that... Basic ability to float is a learned thing.

Or they could cast "Breathe without air" and make the whole thing moot.

Yes but the hatchling dragon in question doesn't know that spell. Also spell casting with both water rushing into your mouth and with people in your mouth would more then likely not get it right.

Every single adult dragon that can fly, with the exception of the Ultucan and Cockatrice (neither of whom would work with a player party), can cast that spell. Even if they don't feel like casting that spell, they also all have a natural teleport power. Teleport straight up into the air, and voila, flying again.

Which for an adult is a viable option.. However the hatchling can only teleport him or herself. So teh people in it's mouth would be suddenly under the water.

[Sentinel]

Which for an adult is a viable option.. However the hatchling can only teleport him or herself. So teh people in it's mouth would be suddenly under the water.

Would the contents of it's stomach be left behind?

[The Beast]

Wait a sec, how big is this hatchling, and how many people does it have in its mouth?

[Veknironth]

Well, human babies can swim in a rudimentary fashion when placed in water, but somehow "forget" that ability. Humans don't drown because they naturally drop to the bottom of the ocean. They have to breath in new air, and to do so, they exhale which makes them less bouyant. When they have to inhale, they might be panicking or can't keep their head above water to draw in fresh air. Eventually, they swallow water or just pass out from lack of oxygen. They still float while they have air in the body and I would expect a Dragon would also have some bouyancy as well.

As for the crush depth, who knows.

I find it hard to accept that the dragon hatchling would be large enough to put 2 humanoids in its mouth. I also have a hard time accepting it wouldn't keep it's mouth shut while diving into the water. Why put them in it's mouth if it's not going to close its mouth to protect them? Last, I always thought that a dragon's flight was more magical than physical. After all, as the dragons are depicted and described they would be too heavy for their wings to create enough lift to allow it to lift off the ground. So, if it's magical, it should work underwater also.

-Vek
"Why are there so many groups with dragons and godlings?"

[UR Leader Hobbes]

Wait a sec, how big is this hatchling, and how many people does it have in its mouth?

Two people.. It's a great horned dragon. Using the write up in the origional Rifts RPG. They do grow up fairly quick.. So it's at about 70-80% of it's full size.

[UR Leader Hobbes]

As for the crush depth, who knows.

I find it hard to accept that the dragon hatchling would be large enough to put 2 humanoids in its mouth. I also have a hard time accepting it wouldn't keep it's mouth shut while diving into the water. Why put them in it's mouth if it's not going to close its mouth to protect them? Last, I always thought that a dragon's flight was more magical than physical. After all, as the dragons are depicted and described they would be too heavy for their wings to create enough lift to allow it to lift off the ground. So, if it's magical, it should work underwater also.

The dragon did keep it's mouth shut.. Someone asked why didn't the dragon cast a spell to remedy the situation...

The problem being that the dragon having his mouth full would have to

A) move his mouth in order to cast the spell allowing water to rush in.
B) Humans in the mouth would make pronouncing the words correctly pretty unlikely.

[Sentinel]

Considering the size of two average humans side by side (roughly 6' long by 1.5 yards wide), and considering the average dragon hatchling isn't much more than twenty feet nose to tail, I'd say putting two people in its' mouth would be almost impossible without metamorphing. Their heads aren't 1/4 of their total size after all.

[Library Ogre]

crush damage only applies to rigid structures that contian a gas. subs, power armor, etc.

human lungs will colapse at depth (as was mentioned) but other than that there is no real harm. marine mamals are designed differntly but their lugs will also be compressed at depth...also without harm to the animal. Its part of mamal's dive reflex.

Dragons aren't mamals. If any life form they would be more akin to reptiles as they have scales and hatch from eggs.

Bah, they have hair, and are warm-blooded, many are poisonous, and are an incredibly ancient life-form. It's clear that dragons are very evolved monotremes.

[Library Ogre]

Bah, they have hair, and are warm-blooded, many are poisonous, and are an incredibly ancient life-form. It's clear that dragons are very evolved monotremes.

You ever say something really clever, then have the conversation just die on you?

[Sentinel]

Bah, they have hair, and are warm-blooded, many are poisonous, and are an incredibly ancient life-form. It's clear that dragons are very evolved monotremes.

You ever say something really clever, then have the conversation just die on you?

Yes.

[Marrowlight]

Bah, they have hair, and are warm-blooded, many are poisonous, and are an incredibly ancient life-form. It's clear that dragons are very evolved monotremes.

You ever say something really clever, then have the conversation just die on you?

Yes.

Doubtful.

Nice way to kill the thread though MrNexx.

[The Beast]

so my question is, how did things end up?

That is a good question. And the answer is........?

[Qev]

Dragons aren't mamals. If any life form they would be more akin to reptiles as they have scales and hatch from eggs.

Bah, they have hair, and are warm-blooded, many are poisonous, and are an incredibly ancient life-form. It's clear that dragons are very evolved monotremes.

Doesn't it explicitly state in PF that dragons are mammals? Was that just in 1st ed?

Are there any dragons with poisonous heel-spines?

[UR Leader Hobbes]

i'd have to agree about what was touched on, (i don't recall if you said the dragon was unconscious or not for sure) but i would think that the dragons wings would help a great deal in swimming even if they didn't have the skill. if they can in fantasy make it so the dragon could fly in the air they should be able to at least let the dragon tread water or gain for lack of being able to think of the better word elevation in the water even if they couldn't swim skillfully. though exertion would probably be a factor. and also was there a water elemental thrown in the mix? if so i'd say the group was in serious trouble!

OK the idea for a water elemental being in the mix came to me as a later idea. As a water elemental is impervious to crush depths it could grab a creature or other being and drag it down to the deep in order to kill something.

The dragon was not unconscious. The initial idea for the dragon was to dive down into the water to avoid the air elemental from which it was fleeing.

Dragons don't have a natural ability to swim. It's not listed anywhere in the books. And for some reason people seem to think that having wings which clearly were designed for flying, enable creatures to swim. Fly yes, but swin?

I just dont' see why everyone thinks dragons should natually be able to swim. If they could then shouldn't it be listed among the natual abilites?