Cosmo Knights and magic question

[Greyaxe]

To be fair, CK are supernatural beings. While they may not need water to sustain themselves they are still subject to physical harm. I dont think I like the spell because there are a great many supernatural beings which do not have any water in them, earth elemental is a good example, however if you are using the spell in your system I believe the CK will still be subject to the spell. Perhaps to be fair the GM could award you a bonus to save against the spell.

[Vrykolas2k]

Since the armour is a part of the knight, it like the knight would be affected by the spell... I do consider them to be supernatural, as some of the Palladium higher-ups do.

[Nekira Sudacne]

I've not found any text that indicates that cosmo knights are beings of pure energy at any time other than when using their superluminal flight ability.

I'd say dessicate works.

[Anonymous Freak]

The description of the CK does mention that they can 'instantly summon' their armor, not that the armor is an innate part of them. My ruling would be that in their armor, they count as if they were in EBA. (While because of their invulnerabilities, they don't NEED EBA, it would make sense for it to be EBA simply for the psi/magic attack factor.)

[Nekira Sudacne]

Cyber knights armor can't be considered EBA, as what EBA is, is clearly defined in the main book, and cyber knight armor dosn't qualify.

it's as covering as plate mail, but not full enviromental.

[Nekira Sudacne]

But of course the Cyber Knights armors are not fully environmental, but those of the Cosmo-Knights are supposed to be.

nothing remotely indicates that. there's a HUGE difference between fully covering and full enviromental. a full enviromental armor actually provides protection from harsh enviroments, independant air supply, temprature control, and such. the cosmo knight armor does none of those things.

[cornholioprime]

Hmm... let me see... Cosmo-Knights are basically transformed into a different state by the Cosmic Forge's energy. They need nothing that a living being does, no water , no food, no sleep, etc. Over a long period of time, even those CKs who had any water left in them would be deprive of it, since there is no input, only output. Is this not right?

This is a logical inference.

To me, GM's call either way.

[cornholioprime]

Personally, I'd classify Cosmo-Knights as "Super-Technologically altered Beings," NOT as "True Supernatural Creatures."

In my view, Carella threw the appellation of "Supernatural" around far too much in the books that he wrote, muddying the clear distinctions that Kevin and every other Author made between the Phyisical, the Psionic, and the Supernatural over the years....

[Nekira Sudacne]

Hmm... let me see... Cosmo-Knights are basically transformed into a different state by the Cosmic Forge's energy. They need nothing that a living being does, no water , no food, no sleep, etc. Over a long period of time, even those CKs who had any water left in them would be deprive of it, since there is no input, only output. Is this not right?

This is a logical inference.

To me, GM's call either way.

I'm just trying to stop people from over-exploiting the fact that aCK is an altered state living being, which it is not. He/She can no longer be considered a living being, but a being of greater sentience and power.

he's still alive though...a supernatural being.

[Temporalmage]

I think the spell would work on a Cosmo Knight.

I know the fluff text of the spell states that it works by sucking out all the water in the victom. But come-on here folks...Does a Demon require water to "live"? No.
Heck the spell states specifically that it works against Elementals. Now how about a Fire Elemental?? Any water there??? Works on vampires, yet they wouldn't have any water in em as they are highly allergic to it.

Lets not read to darn much into this spell and it's obviously askew flaver text, shall we? A Cosmo Knight is a supernatural creature, not an ordinary mortal, nor a magical creature like a dragon or fairy, therefor the spell would work on em.

[Tinker Dragoon]

So, will Dessicate the Supernatural, as it is written, harm a Cosmo Knight?

Under the current rules, no. Cosmo-Knights are not Supernatural Beings and therefore are not affected.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Yes, alive. But cannot be considered a living being. They cannot qualify as they cannot fit into many things that describe a living being as per se.

they're alive, they're living beings. end of discussion.

I mean seriously, they're synonomus.

not having the physical need for food or water in now way whatsoever makes them unalive. simply living exsamples of perpetual motion. which is normally impossible, but thanks to their SUPERNATURAL nature, the laws of conservation of energy are negated.

[Nekira Sudacne]

they're alive, they're living beings. end of discussion.

I mean seriously, they're synonomus.

not having the physical need for food or water in now way whatsoever makes them unalive. simply living exsamples of perpetual motion. which is normally impossible, but thanks to their SUPERNATURAL nature, the laws of conservation of energy are negated.

No. Not the end of discussion. May be in your head, but to me. Living does not always mean alive.

Zombies are alive, but not living.And so are vampires.

Machine People are alive but not living.

All supernatural Intelligences are alive but not living.

Living denotes a biological cycle.

they have one. just not as we do.

except for zombies and machine people--zombies are autonomation and machine people are just Artifical Intelligences programed to make more of themselves.

[Nekira Sudacne]

you seem to have the concept of lifeform all messed up! The Machine People are alive and is considered a type of lifeform, artificial as it may be. They have achieved self-awareness unpon activation, rejecting their masters' only command. they are not just AI that reproduce.

If basing on what you mentioned, you would be just a bag of carbon water that reproduce.

an Artificial intelligence is a program that acheived sentiance. and your definition between being alive and living is incomprehensible, they're synonomus.

and furthermore Life is more defined in palladium as a mystical/spiritual thing than biological processes.

[Thinyser]

I agree with Tinker that they are not defined as SN...
besides even if they were the fact that they don't consume water means that they don't need to replenish water,
they don't need to replenish because they do not contain water,
if they do not contain water then they cannot lose water.

It would be like using the spell on a earth elemental or a tectonic entity. They don't contain/need water so they are uneffected.

[Nekira Sudacne]

I agree with Tinker that they are not defined as SN...
besides even if they were the fact that they don't consume water means that they don't need to replenish water,
they don't need to replenish because they do not contain water,
if they do not contain water then they cannot lose water.

It would be like using the spell on a earth elemental or a tectonic entity. They don't contain/need water so they are uneffected.

c'ept it says they effect elementals...

and Darkmax, I think here's the kicker. your looking at "living" in mortal terms. your right, they don't live as we know it. hence it's a SUPERNATURAL lifeform, the entire point of this thread...

[Tinker Dragoon]

I agree with Tinker that they are not defined as SN...
besides even if they were the fact that they don't consume water means that they don't need to replenish water,
they don't need to replenish because they do not contain water,
if they do not contain water then they cannot lose water.

It would be like using the spell on a earth elemental or a tectonic entity. They don't contain/need water so they are uneffected.

Unfortunately the argument isn't supported by the spell, which works fine on a variety of supernatural creatures that don't need water to survive, including vampires and demons.

Realistically, Air, Fire, and Earth Elementals shouldn't be affected by this spell. Air and Earth Elementals may contain some measure of moisture, but water is not in any way vital to the existence of their physical form, but the wording of the spell suggests that all Elementals are affected (Water Elementals just take more damage).

As far as the rules are concerned, the only reason that Dessicate the Supernatural will not work on a Cosmo-Knight is that Cosmo-Knights are not Supernatural Beings under the definition provided on page 277 of Rifts Ultimate Edition. Instead they're just humans or d-bees with supernatural powers.

[Nekira Sudacne]

I agree with Tinker that they are not defined as SN...
besides even if they were the fact that they don't consume water means that they don't need to replenish water,
they don't need to replenish because they do not contain water,
if they do not contain water then they cannot lose water.

It would be like using the spell on a earth elemental or a tectonic entity. They don't contain/need water so they are uneffected.

Unfortunately the argument isn't supported by the spell, which works fine on a variety of supernatural creatures that don't need water to survive, including vampires and demons.

Realistically, Air, Fire, and Earth Elementals shouldn't be affected by this spell. Air and Earth Elementals may contain some measure of moisture, but water is not in any way vital to the existence of their physical form, but the wording of the spell suggests that all Elementals are affected (Water Elementals just take more damage).

As far as the rules are concerned, the only reason that Dessicate the Supernatural will not work on a Cosmo-Knight is that Cosmo-Knights are not Supernatural Beings under the definition provided on page 277 of Rifts Ultimate Edition. Instead they're just humans or d-bees with supernatural powers.

uh, actually they fit in very well with the RUE definition.

[Tinker Dragoon]

Nope, not even close. Supernatural Beings are defined as "inhuman and immortal ... denizens of an alien reality," who "are not even part of our plane of existence, and must somehow link themselves to our human dimension," either by possession or by gathering worshipers, and must create a physical form in this dimension from ectoplasm, insects, dead bodies, etc.

Cosmo-Knights are mortal creatures who have been endowed with nigh-immortality, invulnerability, and other supernatural powers, none of which qualifies a creature as a Supernatural Being anymore.

[Tinker Dragoon]

Under the current rules, it doesn't matter. Cosmo-Knights are unaffacted regardless of their biology (and biology doesn't even apply to truly Supernatural Beings).

Under the old rules, in which one could call almost any creature with supernatural attributes a Supernatural Being, we have to look at more qualifiers within the spell. 1) Dessicate the Supernatural doesn't work on targets that are wearing environmental armor or inside some other sealed barrier. 2) It doesn't work on energy beings in incorporeal form, and 3) and it supposedly doesn't work on creatures that have no water in their bodies, yet for some reason, 4) it does work on all sorts of creatures that don't need water to survive.

For point 1) we need to ask if Cosmic Armor is sufficient protection. It doesn't seem to be environmental, since the Cosmo-Knights themselves don't need air or temperature controls. On the other hand, one could infer that the armor is completely seamless and sealed against the outside world.

Cosmo-Knights are not energy beings, similiarities to the Silver Surfer notwithstanding, so 2) doesn't apply.

3) and 4) illustrate a basic contradiction in the spell's function. If 4) is true, then many Supernatural Beings (as defined by RUE) would be immune, as they have no biological needs. A demon or vampire should be just as dangerous when shrivelled up as when fully healthy, yet these creatures are stated to expire when the spell is cast on them.

This is the sort of thing that gives young moderators acid reflux.

[Braden Campbell]

Let's just get rid of the spell then. Or better yet, rename it the Jedi Force Crush, and have it affect everybody, mortal and otherworldly being alike.

"And that's the end of that chapter..."

[Braden Campbell]

That works too.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Under the current rules, it doesn't matter. Cosmo-Knights are unaffacted regardless of their biology (and biology doesn't even apply to truly Supernatural Beings).

Under the old rules, in which one could call almost any creature with supernatural attributes a Supernatural Being, we have to look at more qualifiers within the spell. 1) Dessicate the Supernatural doesn't work on targets that are wearing environmental armor or inside some other sealed barrier. 2) It doesn't work on energy beings in incorporeal form, and 3) and it supposedly doesn't work on creatures that have no water in their bodies, yet for some reason, 4) it does work on all sorts of creatures that don't need water to survive.

For point 1) we need to ask if Cosmic Armor is sufficient protection. It doesn't seem to be environmental, since the Cosmo-Knights themselves don't need air or temperature controls. On the other hand, one could infer that the armor is completely seamless and sealed against the outside world.

Cosmo-Knights are not energy beings, similiarities to the Silver Surfer notwithstanding, so 2) doesn't apply.

3) and 4) illustrate a basic contradiction in the spell's function. If 4) is true, then many Supernatural Beings (as defined by RUE) would be immune, as they have no biological needs. A demon or vampire should be just as dangerous when shrivelled up as when fully healthy, yet these creatures are stated to expire when the spell is cast on them.

This is the sort of thing that gives young moderators acid reflux.

actually, the way I read it, everything that the books say are supernatural retoracticaly gain the new attributes discribed by RUE. sinse otherwise NO being would be supernatural as before that NO being had those attributes.

[Temporalmage]

Nope, not even close. Supernatural Beings are defined as "inhuman and immortal ... denizens of an alien reality," who "are not even part of our plane of existence, and must somehow link themselves to our human dimension," either by possession or by gathering worshipers, and must create a physical form in this dimension from ectoplasm, insects, dead bodies, etc.

Cosmo-Knights are mortal creatures who have been endowed with nigh-immortality, invulnerability, and other supernatural powers, none of which qualifies a creature as a Supernatural Being anymore.

Actually Cosmo-Knights ARE supernatural. And you said exactly why.

A Cosmo-Knight is a mortal creature that is "Linked to an inhuman and immortal denzien of an alien reality through a form of possesion." Thus giving these mere mortal creatures Supernatural Abilities.

Don't matter what the creature was born to be. It only matters what the creature is NOW. Which is a being linked directly to an alien intellegence of some sort, almost like a witches pact.

[Tinker Dragoon]

A Cosmo-Knight is a mortal creature that is "Linked to an inhuman and immortal denzien of an alien reality through a form of possesion." Don't matter what the creature was born to be. It only matters what the creature is NOW. Which is a being linked directly to an alien intellegence of some sort, almost like a witches pact.

Cosmo-Knights aren't linked to any sort of intelligence.

But hey, if you like the idea that killing a Cosmo-Knight causes his body to disintegrate and his spirit to be banished to his native dimension for a few centuries, that's your prerogative.

[Nekira Sudacne]

A Cosmo-Knight is a mortal creature that is "Linked to an inhuman and immortal denzien of an alien reality through a form of possesion." Don't matter what the creature was born to be. It only matters what the creature is NOW. Which is a being linked directly to an alien intellegence of some sort, almost like a witches pact.

Cosmo-Knights aren't linked to any sort of intelligence.

But hey, if you like the idea that killing a Cosmo-Knight causes his body to disintegrate and his spirit to be banished to his native dimension for a few centuries, that's your prerogative.

personally, until someone shows me how we can apply the new HU definition to Demons without likewise applying it to EVERYTHING that says they're supernatural retroactivly, that's the rules.

you can't say "Their books nature precludes it as they don't work under the RUE defition sinse NO being in the megaverse works under that definition unless you apply it retroactivly. and if you do, you have to do it to all.

which just goes to show how silly the idea was in the first place.

[Temporalmage]

A Cosmo-Knight is a mortal creature that is "Linked to an inhuman and immortal denzien of an alien reality through a form of possesion." Don't matter what the creature was born to be. It only matters what the creature is NOW. Which is a being linked directly to an alien intellegence of some sort, almost like a witches pact.

Cosmo-Knights aren't linked to any sort of intelligence.

The entire discription of how a Cosmo Knight gains thier ablities is spot on to a pact with some sort of intellegence.
1. The candidate is chosen and visited in dream, while the person is sleeping and thus vulnerable to psionic and magic probes I might add.
2. The candidate is asked to "Become One With the Cosmic Forge." Seems like either a witches pact or a willing possesion to me.
3. The candidate that accepts then enters the Cosmic Forge where their bodies and Souls are bathed in cosmic energy, seared and reshaped.

Latter in the discription is specifically states that a Cosmo Knight is a Supernatural Being. Never says they are a creature of magic, nor mortal. In fact the entire Cosmo Knight entry says several times that they are anything BUT mortal. Check out thier life spans.

But hey, if you like the idea that killing a Cosmo-Knight causes his body to disintegrate and his spirit to be banished to his native dimension for a few centuries, that's your prerogative.

This is what happens to demons, devils, and other supernatural creatures. But what about witches? They become supernatural creatures throught thier pact with supernatural intellegences. Are you suggesting that the vagabond witch linked to Splyncrith and killed by a juicer is going to have his body disintegrated and his spirit banished?? No. Instead the witch is going to simply be dead, with thier soul sucked into thier master.
Besides....a Cosmo-knight is already in his "native dimension". Which is where they can be destroyed if your following that particular line of thought.

[Temporalmage]

After they fall from grace they do, but they are still in a somewhat lesser altered state.
Once a mortal becomes a Cosmo-Knight, they are forever altered in a Supernatural way.

[Temporalmage]

but not necessarily a supernatural being after the fall, right?

I'd say so, but that's just me. They might be like a Brodkil or Gargoyle who's considered a "lesser" demon. Just "lesser" SN creature.

I agree. After all they are still MDC creatures with supernatural abilities. They don't lose ALL thier powers, just most of em.