Megaversal Damage Continuity

[Jefffar]

Now, I want to point something out here before I begin: I am aware that what I am proposing would essentially mean rewriting the stats of every pistol, rifle, heavy weapon, robot, power armour, cyborg, tank, truck, hovercycle, jet, boat, starfighter, ship, starship and skateboard in the game and would require a lot of work.

I have pointed that fact out when others have proposed similar undertakings that would require a large rewrite.

I want to point out that I don't consider an entire rewrite of the system a bad thing. I consider it a logical approach to repairing what many see as a deficiency of the existing system.

I also want to point out I am not in favour of atomizing players the first tiem they take a hit. What I am in favour of that a weapon is powerful enough to plausibly do the job it is designed to do. For example, an anti-tank weapon should be able to cripple or kill a tank relatively easily - not barely scratch infantry body armour.

So with that out of the way:

Megaversal Damage Continuity by Tech Levels:

Basic Concept: I have divided the megaverse as we know it into 6 levels of technological achievement. I have divded the megaverse's weaponry as we know it into 5 classes based on general size and performance.

I have created a series of charts that will tell you what a typical laser weapon of a particular class at a specific level of technology will typically do in a single attack (usually representing a single blast or concentrated burst attack).

Bear in mind these are the typical laser weapons. An Ion weapon will do slightly more damage and have les range. A plasma or particle beam weapon will do signifigantly more damage, but have signifigantly reduced range and a lower rate of fire.

Also bear in mind that these damage ratings are assuming a balanced approach. If a manufacturer wants to add or improve other features of the weapon (ie rate of fire, range, accuracy, variable frequency capability) those improvements will come at the cost of reduced damage. Likewise, if a manufacturer choose to reduce some of the weapons other qualities or add a unique disdvantage (ie slower rate of fire, reduce ammo capacity, reduced range, reduced accuracy, increased weight) they can increase the damage.

So, here we go:

Chart 1 - Tech Levels:

Level 1: Top Three Galaxies Tech: Examples - Bushido Industries, Naruni Enterprises
Level 2: High Three Galaxies Tech: Examples - TGE, Kittani
Level 3: Medium Three Galaxies / Pre Rifts / Top Rifts Earth Tech: Examples - Galactic Armoury, Malkovich, NEMA, New Navy, Armatech, Ichito, Triax, Mindwerks
Level 4: Low Three Galaxies / High Rifts Earth Tech: Examples - T'Zee, CS, Free Qubec, Wilks, Silver River Republics
Level 5: Medium Rifts Earth Tech: Examples - Northern Gun, Manistique, WR, H-Brand
Level 6: Low Rifts Earth Tech: Examples - Wellington, GAW

Char 2 - General Weapon properties:

Sidearm - This class of weapons is typically used as a back up or personal defence weapon by infantry, power armour and cyborgs. it is effective agaisnt lightly armoured personell. It includes pistols plus light weight, concealable built in weapon systems. Side arms generally have a maximum range of around 1000 feet / 300 meters and a rate of fire of 1 per melee action.
Longarm - This class of weapon represnts the primary weapon carried by msot infantry, light borgs and light power armour. It also represents secondary defensive weapons on larger vehicles. It is effective agaisnt light to medium armoured personel. Most typical of this class are rifles, but a number of built in systems on robots and vehicles are also in this class. Longarms generally have a maximum range of around 2000 feet / 600 meters and a rate of fire of 1 blast per melee action.
Light Cannon - This class of weapons represents crew served infantry weapons, primary weapons carried by cyborgs and power armour, and secondary or area defence weaponry carried by vehicles. It is effective against infantry, vehicles, aircraft, missiles, power armour, cyborgs and light armour. Example weapons in this class include the C-40 Railgun, NE-75 Shoulder Cannon and I-11 Long Gun. Light Cannon generally have a maximum range of around 4000 feet / 1200 meters and a rate of fire of 1 blast per melee action. Light Cannon are - 2 to strike agaisnt man sized or smaller targets.
Medium Cannon - This class of weapons is typically mounted as the primary weapon on tanks and robots. Occasionally it can be seen on power armour (ie the Glitter Boy's Boom Gun). This class of weapons is effective at destroying armoured vehicles and combat robots. it also makes a decent anti-ship weapon and is capable of doing severe damage to dragons and other major supernatural critters. Medium Cannon generally have a maximum range of around 8000 feet / 2400 meters and a rate of fire of 1 blast ever other melee action. Medium Cannon are -4 to strike man-sized and smaller targets and - 2 to strike targets the size of a luxary sedan or smaller.
Heavy Cannon - This class of weapons represents the ultimate in firepower. Thes guns are typically mounted only on large naval vessels - though occasionally mobile fortresses (like the CS Firestorm) will mount one or two. This class of weapons is just one step removed from being considered weapons of massed destruction, with single hits destroying all but the toughest targets. Heavy Cannon generally have a maximum range of around 16000 feet / 4800 meters and a rate of fire of 1 blast per melee. Heavy Cannon are -8 to strike targets man sized or smaller, -4 to strike targets smaller than a luxary sedan and -2 to strike targets smaller than an assault robot or battle tank.


Chart 3 - Sidearm Damage Levels
1: 4D6
2: 3D6
3: 2D6
4: 2D4
5: 1D6
6: 1D4

Chart 4 - Longarm Damage Levels
1: 1D4x10
2: 6D6
3: 5D6
4: 4D6
5: 3D6
6: 2D6

Chart 5 - Light Cannon Damage Levels
1: 4D6x10
2: 3D6x10
3: 2D6x10
4: 2D4x10
5: 1D6x10
6: 1D4x10

Chart 6 - Medium Cannon Damage Levels
1: 4D6x100
2: 3D6x100
3: 2D6x100
4: 2D4x100
5: 1D6x100
6: 1D4x100

Chart 7 - Heavy Cannon Damage Levels
1: 4D6x1000
2: 3D6x1000
3: 2D6x1000
4: 2D4x1000
5: 1D6x1000
6: 1D4x1000

Example: Triax Devastator Mark I:

The Triax Devastator has 3 gun weapons, a medium laser cannon, a medium ion cannon and a double ion longarm. Using the charts, the new performance factors for these weapons would be:

Medium Laser Cannon: 2D6x100, 8 000 ft (2.4 km) range, 1 blast per 2 melee attacks
Medium Ion Cannon: 3D6x100 (boosted because ions do more damage) 6000 ft (1.8 km) range (reduced because ions have less range), 1 blast per 2 melee attacks
Double Barrelled Ion Long Arm Belly Turret: 5D6 per barrel (boosted to 6D6 because ions doing more damage, but reduced to 5D6 because the double barreled configuration provides greater firepower and a higher rate of fire). Range 1600 ft (450 m) (reduced because ions have less range) each barrel can fire once per attack.

So, now the big guns on the Devastator are a match for Dragons and Gargoyle Super-Bots (ie the targets they were built to destroy) but their slow rate of fire and low accuracy make them unsuitable for use agaisnt anything smaller than a gargoyle. The belly turret will sting a gargoyle, brodkil or cyborg that gets close - perhaps pushing them out where mini-missiles can be used to finish them off.

Example: Glitter Boy

Despite being a power armour, the Glitterboy still packs a medium cannon as it's primary weapon. Unfortunately, because the cannon is a rail gun and generates a lot of recoil, the Glitter boy must stop and anchor to fire. This reduces the Glitterboy's mobility considerably. However, the negative impact of that disadvantage allows the glitterboy to pick up a big advantage. The gun is more accurate, able to engage mansized targets without the usual penalty (because of the spreading effect of the shot). So the new stats of the boom gun are: 2D6x100, 8000 ft (2.4 km), 1 shot every 2 melee attacks and must remain stationary while shooting. No size penalty to hit man sized or larger targets.

Questions? Comments?

[Daniel Stoker]

Hmm... It's interesting and reminds me a bit of the Classes of damage in the old Avalon Hill game 'Tales from the Floating Vagabond'. I'm curious, how/where would you rate things like the CS Plasma Cannon and Particle Beam weapons?


Daniel Stoker

[Jefffar]

Well, the CS is a level 4 tech Group which means a Light Laser Cannon will do 2D4x10 MD, have a range of 4000 feet (1200 m) and rate of fire of 1 blast per melee attack.

Plasma and Particle weapons both do increaed damage by a couple of notches - so 3D6x10 and have signifigantly reduced ranges - so 2000 feet / 600 meters.

The older C-27 might be considered a tech level reduced so the damage on it would be 2D6x10. Alternatively you could consider it a heavier version of a rifle which would make it 6D6 with a range of 1000 feet / 300 meters depending on the way you wanted to play.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Interesting concept, however, I don't belive a "balanced" approach is simply realistic. Some guns are simply better all around than others even with the same technological level. after all--how many companies actually manufacture prodcuts that can do EVERYTHING they know how to do? answer, it happens, but not as often, because that brings the cost way up.

That said, some non-mass-marketed models ARE the luxury models with everything that can be done to it. These can easially have higher damanage, range, AND rate of fire than it's contemporaries.

in short, I, personally, think that the only thing that really needs to be done is upping the damage on your three "cannon" catagories. I have no problems with sidearms and longarms doing the range of damage they currently do. what I DO have a problem with is tanks that don't blow away man sized targets in one hit.

[Guest]

I should note that the Silver River Republics have a range of tech level, with;
Cordoba & Santiago = on par with the CS
The Achilles Republic = on par with 20th century america* (with some tech transfers from New Babylon)
New Babylon = on par with Pre-Rifts technology in some areas
The Southern Federation = SUPERIOR to pre-Rifts technology!
Nuevo Peru = Between the Achilles Republic & Cordoba


Other problems occur with the differences of pre-Rifts technology available to nations, with Armatech (for instance) being superior to Triax. A 10 scale would have been probably more useful for equating tech levels in Rifts.

In addition, the simplistic "General Weapon properties" don't really convey the differences in damage from a ion weapon to a laser weapon.

[Nightmaster]

Good idea Jefffar, but maybe another approach would be better.

Instead of setting generic tables for types of weapons and thus increasing the numbers in damage the solution perhaps could be to add an scale to the damage and special rules for specificy types of weapons (armor-piercing missiles, sniper rifles etc)

I mean instead of making a cannon do 2D6x100 MDC why not create some specific rules for its special ability?

Ex. and Armor-Piercing missile launched from a portable missile launcher in the current rules does 1D4x10 MD if a mini-missile, simple that right? now add some chance based on the size of the missile (mini-missile, short range, medium range, etc) of the missile cripling the targe, not specifically destory it, like the weapon systems, locomotion and so on.

That sort approach could be better than simple raising numbers.

But the rest is good. A revision of the weapons, vehicles, bot and power armor of the Rifts and Phase World books is a thing that is needed to correct several holes in the setting.

[Shiva7]

Interesting, but i think the damage increase from one weapon type to the next for the same tech level is a bit much.

[shadrak]

I like it, but I think it would also require an armor rewrite as well.

I am all for heavy damage, but some of those long arms and cannon get extreme, and at this point, CS tech is almost on par w/Pre-Rifts tech (and even seems to surpass it in some instances).

All in all, provided the damage levels were reduced a bit, I think I would like a system like this. Unfortunately, it can't happen 'cuz there are nearly 60 books that would need major rewrites and I wouldn't pay for it.

The only way I can see around that is for palladium to allow a fan written system that is sold for a nominal charge. It could be an entire rewrite of entire books or just weapons, armor and equipment.

It becomes fairly difficult, though (I compiled my Northern Gun equipment sourcebook and it took about 20 hours of work to format, I'm sure other people could have done it quicker).

[Nightmaster]

shadrak wrote:

I like it, but I think it would also require an armor rewrite as well.

I am all for heavy damage, but some of those long arms and cannon get extreme, and at this point, CS tech is almost on par w/Pre-Rifts tech (and even seems to surpass it in some instances).

All in all, provided the damage levels were reduced a bit, I think I would like a system like this. Unfortunately, it can't happen 'cuz there are nearly 60 books that would need major rewrites and I wouldn't pay for it.

The only way I can see around that is for palladium to allow a fan written system that is sold for a nominal charge. It could be an entire rewrite of entire books or just weapons, armor and equipment.

It becomes fairly difficult, though (I compiled my Northern Gun equipment sourcebook and it took about 20 hours of work to format, I'm sure other people could have done it quicker).

Well the increase in the damage is ok in some situations but not on overall. I mean the Phantom tank of the NGR dont have the capacity of killing a soldier in one of the cyclops body armors if you dont roll very high the dices of damage. A increase in some weapons on some vehicles is ok, but not 2D6x100 MD or anything like that.

Also the palladium combat rules lack a thing that would resolve all of that problems that is an Scale. If you add a scale rule for damage you can make not all but a lot of vehicles and weapons in the game be resonable and ok.

[Damian Magecraft]

Hmm... It's interesting and reminds me a bit of the Classes of damage in the old Avalon Hill game 'Tales from the Floating Vagabond'. I'm curious, how/where would you rate things like the CS Plasma Cannon and Particle Beam weapons?


Daniel Stoker

DUDE! TFV! I havent seen that name or game in ages...careful you will reveal your true age...

[Library Ogre]

A few things I see...

1) You need to take into account the different properties of different weapon types. I know Palladium usually doesn't, but lasers should be different from ion weapons should be different from plasma weapons.

2) Your tech level table doesn't go deep enough; it forgets the extremely low-end, HU level tech, and even medieval tech (though likely intentionally... but if you're gonna claim to be Megaversal)

[Tigermuppetcut]

You've been in my brain and stolen my thinks!

I've been on and off working on something almost identical. I think it's the way forward.

In terms of prevention of rewriting books here's the way I see it, everything written about weapons / armour outside of damage is the same (except maybe any wacky costs, these are all over the place).

Then you use the table provided by the OP here for the weapons (needs entries for ion / plasma etc) and then add more modifiers based on the weapons writeen purpose (e.g. primarily anti-aircraft means normal to hit vs aircraft - 4 against everything else, secondary written purpose is only a -2 or something.

You really don't need to throw anything out.

I do think the weights / costs / armour values also need tweaking to bring things in line. Starting with weight and height, accounting for weapon loudouts and speed then working out armour from that (by weight). The costing things up somehow (all average damages added together plus armour value x 10,000 in credits (or something).

Anyway massive thumbs up from me, how about expanding values to cope with plasma, ion, close combat weapons etc. etc.

[Daniel Stoker]

DUDE! TFV! I havent seen that name or game in ages...careful you will reveal your true age...

Meh, I'll be ok. And the game is still a hoot to play even if my copy has literally fallen apart and is held together with rubber bands.


Daniel Stoker

[grandmaster z0b]

Grrrrrrrrrrrrrr this is the second time I've had to post this....


I think it's a good way to approach the obvious problem of vehicle damage - however I would also think about upping the damages of greater demons and greatest Rune Weapons.
That Baalrog with a greatest rune weapon should be doing as much damage as a tank (or more). I've always found that even Alien Intelligences don't have the damage to match their MDC. In Atlantis there is a mention of a fight between Splynncryth and another AI in the arena - what a boring match that would be as it would go on for weeks with each having over 100K MDC and incredible regeneration.

[Jefffar]

Well I do mention that other types of weapons will do more damage with less range. I also mention tht levels of damage would be tradable for other features. A higher tech manufacturer will hae more levels avaialble for adding features to a weapon (like automatic firing, variable frequency, extended range, whatever)

This was a basic, bare bones system done off hte cuff (without book consult I might add, so Tech levels are indeed approximated and final distributions are subject to modification). I wanted more a geneal framework to start with rther than anything hard and fast.

The reason we didn't end up with 10 levels of damage is that the range between the high end and low end became so ridiculous that I went with 6.

For example, if we went with 10 levels, the pistol chart would be like this:


1: 1D4x10 MD
2: 6D6 MD
3: 5D6 MD
4: 4D6 MD
5: 3D6 MD
6: 2D6 MD
7: 2D4 MD
8: 1D6 MD
9: 1D4 MD
10: 1 MD

So the highest tech laser pistols would be doing 1D4x10 MD per blast, wihtout any trade offs in range, ammo capacity, rate of fire, unusual ammunition requirements, heavy weight or similar. If upgraded to Plasma or Particle beam it would probally end up around 2D4x10 MD per blast - for a pistol that's as light and handy as a wilk's laser from the main book. Meanwhile, a GAW laser pistol of the same size is going to barely fleck the paint on the target's body armour. That's too big a range for my liking.

I also agree the supernatural critters and magic should also be doing damage comperable to the appropriate scale of weapons.

[Killer Cyborg]

For example, if we went with 10 levels, the pistol chart would be like this:
1: 1D4x10 MD
2: 6D6 MD
3: 5D6 MD
4: 4D6 MD
5: 3D6 MD
6: 2D6 MD
7: 2D4 MD
8: 1D6 MD
9: 1D4 MD
10: 1 MD

So the highest tech laser pistols would be doing 1D4x10 MD per blast, wihtout any trade offs in range, ammo capacity, rate of fire, unusual ammunition requirements, heavy weight or similar. If upgraded to Plasma or Particle beam it would probally end up around 2D4x10 MD per blast - for a pistol that's as light and handy as a wilk's laser from the main book. Meanwhile, a GAW laser pistol of the same size is going to barely fleck the paint on the target's body armour. That's too big a range for my liking.

I like it a lot better this way.

[Guest]

Well I do mention that other types of weapons will do more damage with less range. I also mention tht levels of damage would be tradable for other features. A higher tech manufacturer will hae more levels avaialble for adding features to a weapon (like automatic firing, variable frequency, extended range, whatever)

This was a basic, bare bones system done off hte cuff (without book consult I might add, so Tech levels are indeed approximated and final distributions are subject to modification). I wanted more a geneal framework to start with rther than anything hard and fast.

The reason we didn't end up with 10 levels of damage is that the range between the high end and low end became so ridiculous that I went with 6.

For example, if we went with 10 levels, the pistol chart would be like this:


1: 1D4x10 MD
2: 6D6 MD
3: 5D6 MD
4: 4D6 MD
5: 3D6 MD
6: 2D6 MD
7: 2D4 MD
8: 1D6 MD
9: 1D4 MD
10: 1 MD

The problem with that is your thinking is limited by Palladium's damage conventions, the actual table would look like this:
01: 1D4/2 (1-2)
02: 1D4-1 (1-3)
03: 1D4 (1-4)
04: 1D6-1 (1-5)
05: 1D4+1 (2-5)
06: 1D6 (1-6)
07: 1D8-1 (1-7)
08: 1D6+1 (2-7)
09: 1D8 (1-8)
10: 1D10-1 (1-9)
11: 2D4 (2-8)
12: 1D8+1 (2-9)
13: 1D10 (1-10)
14: 1D12-1 (1-11)
15: 1D10+1 (2-11)
16: 1D12 (1-12)
17: 2D6 (2-12)
18: 3D4 (3-12)
19: 4D4-3 (1-13)
20: 1D12+1 (2-13)
21: 2D6+1 (3-13)
22: 3D4+1 (4-13)
23: 2D10-6 (1-14)
24: 4D4-2 (2-14)
25: 2D8-1 (1-15)
26: 4D4-1 (3-15)
27: 3D6-2 (1-16)
28: 2D8 (2-16)
29: 4D4 (4-16)
30: 2D10-3 (1-17)
31: 3D6-1 (2-17)
32: 2D8+1 (3-17)
33: 4D4+1 (5-17)
34: 2D10-2 (1-18)
35: 3D6 (3-18)
36: 2D10-1 (1-19)
37: 5D4-1 (4-19)
38: 1D20 ( 1-20)
39: 2D10 ( 2-20)
40: 5D4 (5-20)
41: 3D8-3 (1-21)
42: 2D10+1 (3-21)
43: 3D8-2 (1-22)
44: 2D12-1 (1-23)
45: 3D8-1 (2-23)
46: 4D6-1 (3-23)
47: 6D4-1 (5-23)
48: 2D12 (2-24)
49: 3D8 (3-24)
50: 4D6 (4-24)
51: 6D4 (6-24)
52: 3D8+1 (4-25)
53: 4D6+1 (5-25)
54: 6D4+1 (7-25)
55: 3D10-1 (2-29)
56: 3D10 (3-30)
57: 5D6 (5-30)
58: 4D8-1 (3-31)
59: 3D10+1 (4-31)
60: 4D8 (4-32)
61: 4D8+1 (5-33)
62: 6D6-1 (5-35)
63: 6D6 (6-36)

The advantages to thinking outside "the box" and using such a table should be immediately obvious, as the different weapon types (laser, plasma, ion, particle beam, rail gun, etc) could easily use only parts of the list to differentiate both tech levels (on anything from a 1-10 to 1-20 scale) AND weapon types. (Not counting the fact that I stopped at 6D6.)

So the highest tech laser pistols would be doing 1D4x10 MD per blast, wihtout any trade offs in range, ammo capacity, rate of fire, unusual ammunition requirements, heavy weight or similar. If upgraded to Plasma or Particle beam it would probally end up around 2D4x10 MD per blast - for a pistol that's as light and handy as a wilk's laser from the main book. Meanwhile, a GAW laser pistol of the same size is going to barely fleck the paint on the target's body armour. That's too big a range for my liking.

I also agree the supernatural critters and magic should also be doing damage comperable to the appropriate scale of weapons.

Not that I use a tech-level based system myself, though I can see the attraction of it.

[Jefffar]

For example, if we went with 10 levels, the pistol chart would be like this:
1: 1D4x10 MD
2: 6D6 MD
3: 5D6 MD
4: 4D6 MD
5: 3D6 MD
6: 2D6 MD
7: 2D4 MD
8: 1D6 MD
9: 1D4 MD
10: 1 MD

So the highest tech laser pistols would be doing 1D4x10 MD per blast, wihtout any trade offs in range, ammo capacity, rate of fire, unusual ammunition requirements, heavy weight or similar. If upgraded to Plasma or Particle beam it would probally end up around 2D4x10 MD per blast - for a pistol that's as light and handy as a wilk's laser from the main book. Meanwhile, a GAW laser pistol of the same size is going to barely fleck the paint on the target's body armour. That's too big a range for my liking.

I like it a lot better this way.

You can like it a lot better that way if you choose to.

I wrote I so I would like it. I posted it here so that the rest of y'all could like it or not, change it or not but ultimately so you could all think a little more about the game mechanics and decide how to make your games better.

[Jefffar]

Kusu, yes your system does give you a much greater level of detail.

It also gives us lots more maths and headaches.

And yes, that is why I rejected all the little +/- steps that I had origionally considered when I first thought "outside the box" on this. I prefer to make it simpler and easier with short, quick tables rather than a 63 item table.

[rat_bastard]

lets not forget that with tech level 3-4 you start being able to make tech objects that either work with or manuipulate psionic abilities, for instance Archie (tech level upper reaches of 3) has made machines that are immune to the power telemechanics, and he has also made vehicles that inerface better with people with telemechanics. meanwhile the CS and he black market have made items that detect or protect somewhat against psionics (psi-detecters and psi-blocker helmets.). I would say that at tech level 0 to -1 you have tech items that start directly producing magical effects.

[Jefffar]

This topic was truncated because it went off topic and spilled into a flame war.

The on topic posts were retained and the thread re-opened. If this thread gets sidelined again it will be locked.

If you have any disagreements on the way this was handled, contact NMI.

[Thinyser]

I like the idea you have here. I think it's better to design something with a scale in mind instead of pulling numbers out of the ether.

Thats what I think is the major advantage with this

I was thinking, though, should there be a weapon class between sidearm and longarm? Like a submachine gun or carbine level? Just a thought.

good thought

I was also curious about bursting weapons. So you have a level 3 weapon and that damage represents either a single shot or burst, right? Does that mean a normal shot does one level down, or if it's single shot damage you add bursting to it and that moves it up a level? How exactly does that work?

good question, I would like to hear the author's answers to this.

[Jefffar]

Modern submachineguns or carbines typically fire standard pistol and rifle ammunitions. I see them fiting into the standard system as follows:

Take a sidearm, give it the disadvantage of being relatively large and bulky (by pistol standards) so you get to knock its damage up a notch and you get a sub-machinegun.

Take a longarm, give it the advantage of being lighter and more portable but you have to nck it's damage down a notch and you have a carbine.


Damage listed is for a standard attack (ie single shot or a short burst depending on the design of the weapon). If you gave the weapon a pulse mode or the ability to fire a longer, heavier burst, those would beadvantages and knock the base damage per blast down a notch or two, but the cumulative damage for the heavier attack would be higher.

ie the Weapon's base damage is currently 3D6. You want to give it a pulse mode. So you drop the base damage to 2D6 and give it a pulse mode that will do 6D6.

And no Robotech does not fit in here because currently (but hopefully for not too much longer) Robotech is not a part of the megaverse.

[shadrak]

The more I look at this, the more I like the 10 step system.

I may want to use it in my games. Northern Gun weapons don't seem to require any change.

Anybody thing they can email me a fully fleshed out list and rules regarding its use?

[Jefffar]

A more thorough treatment is in the works at the momment.

[jedi078]

Now... if we use the chart proposed by Jefffar or the 10-step chart, where would robotech come in? Their mega-cannon damages are way off any of those scale.

What I did for my Robotech game is use a 50:1 SDC to SDC damage ratio.

I then made an Armor piercing 12.7mm round inflict 5d10 SDC/1 MDC.

From there I used ratios to re-set the damages of all rifle/Machinegun/auto cannon rounds, and included three ammo types ball, AP, and HE, although anything smaller then a 12.7mm doesn't not have HE rounds.

Thus a 12.7mm has the following round types/damages

Ball 7D6
HE 7D6+2 and 2 ft Blast Radius
AP 5D10/1 MDC

I did pretty much the same thing for pistol, shotguns, and grenade launcher/mortar rounds too.

[shadrak]

I am really wanting to look at this!!! This is brilliant.

[jedi078]

Wow! Am I getting tired or was that too complex.

Well if the math's been done for you why worry?

As a GM use it or don't use it.

[shadrak]

Actually, it wasn't that bad...

He just went through all of the "common" damage combinations from 1-36 (he used 63 to do it).

Each one is a step up from the other (normally a one point step) and it is organized according to probability theory each level will consistantly do slightly more damage than the previous level.

He's done the hard work. I will agree, though, that it is a little over the top...I would drop all D12, D10 and D8 references....I think 10 steps is enough, the 63 steps gets so detailed you could create a whole book on weapon engineering and technology levels (example: at tech level 3, a laser weapon weighing 3lbs with a range of 1000' and a payload of 20 will do 2D6 damage)

Come to think of it...you could create a mathematical equation that would fit pretty well into the system.

[Guest]

Actually, it wasn't that bad...

He just went through all of the "common" damage combinations from 1-36 (he used 63 to do it).

Each one is a step up from the other (normally a one point step) and it is organized according to probability theory each level will consistantly do slightly more damage than the previous level.

He's done the hard work. I will agree, though, that it is a little over the top...I would drop all D12, D10 and D8 references....I think 10 steps is enough, the 63 steps gets so detailed you could create a whole book on weapon engineering and technology levels (example: at tech level 3, a laser weapon weighing 3lbs with a range of 1000' and a payload of 20 will do 2D6 damage)

That's just the point, with so many options for damage available, it's easy to modify it to reflect any level of simplicity or complexity that you want, whereas with the extremely limited six step system, there's no real variation in the damages, and that gets boring fast.

Come to think of it...you could create a mathematical equation that would fit pretty well into the system.

Easily.

Problem is, you have to give a bit of a lee-way for youngster. Having so many pluses and minuses would put them off.

No, you don't have to give lee-way. I actually find the aversion to simple math seen so much lately on the forums a bad-side effect of dumbing games down to the lowest common denominator. Which is odd because there's so many complaints about that lowest common denominator and how it's ruining games.

Combat is supposed to be quick, not entirely accurate.

Ah, the classic line between playability and realism. Certainly the game shouldn't be overly complex, however, the game mechanics should make sense. Take for instance, the damages of staves, a 6 foot long short staff that weights three pounds does 1D6 damage, a 6 foot long quarterstaff that weights 3.5 pounds does 2D6 damage. So basically that half a pound doubles the damage done...obviously that doesn't make sense (less so when a long staff that weighs five pounds does 2D4 damage AND that a 9.5 foot staff which weighs three pounds ALSO does 2D6 damage).

In case you haven't noticed, I worked out the damage scale so I could fix the inconsistancies in the existing ancient weapon damages. (Coming soon, firearms, MDC weapons, and other fixes. )

[Tigermuppetcut]

Hooray for this thread. I like the more detailed steps by Kuseru. Allows for flexibility.

I don't see that rolling 3D6 is any less complex than rolling 2D8+2 or something.

[shadrak]

Yeah, but he is saying that the weapons are the same size and weight and do different damage....


Here's something to look at: Have any of you ever played GDW's Twilight 2000 or Traveller? Twilight 2000 had a book that was similar to the Compendium of Weapons and it covered small arms and machineguns. What they did with their damage system (which had to be very simple because weapons only did damage in D6) was create an equasion that determined damage for a specific class of weapon dependant on the weight of the round, the speed of the round and the energy of the round. This way, players could pick up a Guns and Ammo magazine and be like "wow! That new 5.56 pistol is pretty interesting...I want to incorporate it into my game".

They did something similar with explosives by simplifying ACTUAL demolition equasions (any one who has worked with explosives has probably done a similar guestimation)

It can bog you down if you are trying to work equations yourself in the middle of a game, but you shouldn't do that. You should have it worked out ahead of time. And the 63 step system is really simple-almost as simple as a 10 step system.

[shadrak]

Regardless, MD melee weapons generally are not transmitting force/momentum to do damage-they rely on "sharpness" (vibro-blades) or a non-kintetic energy (flaming/laser/plasma swords). If this weren't the case, only characters w/ SN or robotic PS could do MD...

Because of this, the scales for melee weapons would be truncated

This scale system applies more readily to ranged weapons.

[grandmaster z0b]

Well I do agree with Kuseru that ancient weapon's damages are also off, which I think has lead to modern weapons being off as well.

[shadrak]

Jeffar wrote:Level 3: Medium Three Galaxies / Pre Rifts / Top Rifts Earth Tech: Examples - Galactic Armoury, Malkovich, NEMA, New Navy, Armatech, Ichito, Triax, Mindwerks
Level 4: Low Three Galaxies / High Rifts Earth Tech: Examples - T'Zee, CS, Free Qubec, Wilks, Silver River Republics

I was looking at this, and I think Wilk's and new CS gear should be included in the Top Rifts Earth catagory. The new CS gear seems to be equivilent or superior to Triax equipment (GK...if you can fix this in Triax 2?). The tech level of Wilk's is pretty high, too.

[shadrak]

Well, I think Wilks is much higher than it should be, but even if it were lowered, it would still be impressive (on par with Triax). I don't have a real problem with that, since they produce high quality electronics and lasers and few other systems with military applications. Merc Ops kinda shakes up the balance as well.