What Energies Does Energy Absorption Not Work On?

[Iczer]

I'd exclude cold, darkness and sonic/vibration. The rest are fair IMHO

Batts

[Reagren Wright]

But when it says Energy Expulsion its kind of hard to say you can't absorb it.
Now I'm sure if you go outside when its 30 below zero, you are not going to be able
to absorb the cold because energy is not be expelled at you. Same thing if you go
outside at night. Or if you stand next to an air raid siren. None of these are forms of energy.
However, cold, darkenss, and sound in the form of energy that does damage seems
to suggest it can be absorbed. Just as the Copy Energy Pattern lists all kinds of different
energy that can be copied. Then again if you read Re-Channel and Expel Energy in PU1
it says absorb any energy-based attack. Impervious to pure energy attacks like
lasers, energy expulsion, particle beams, ion weapons, plasma, fire, and electricity.
Kinetic attacks do full damage so do cold-based attacks. So I could see the argument go
either way. It depends upon how your GM interprets the power as it is described.

[Stone Gargoyle]

Cold and darkness can be seen as a lack of energy, though, so I would exclude those. Sonic energy does travel on an energy wavelength, so I would include them.

[NMI]

So because it has the word "Energy" in it, would you allow Energy Absorption to absorb "Energy Expulsion: Force"?

[Stone Gargoyle]

I don't know how I would classify force attacks. That is an interesting question.

[drewkitty ~..~]

E Ex: Force is more like getting hit with a moving force field.

[Reagren Wright]

Energy Expulsion Force and Force Bolts (from Force Field) are described as semi-transparent
balls or bolts of force. So I guess we have to ask our selves what is force in a ball or bolt
form? Are we talking about a concussion wave like in an explosion? Energy Absorption also
says kinetic energy like explosion do full damage. So that alone tells me force bolts cannot
be absorbed. I believe in the New Powers section I created a major power called Impact
Absorption.

[NMI]

But when it says Energy Expulsion its kind of hard to say you can't absorb it.
Now I'm sure if you go outside when its 30 below zero, you are not going to be able
to absorb the cold because energy is not be expelled at you. Same thing if you go
outside at night. Or if you stand next to an air raid siren. None of these are forms of energy.
However, cold, darkenss, and sound in the form of energy that does damage seems
to suggest it can be absorbed. Just as the Copy Energy Pattern lists all kinds of different
energy that can be copied. Then again if you read Re-Channel and Expel Energy in PU1
it says absorb any energy-based attack. Impervious to pure energy attacks like
lasers, energy expulsion, particle beams, ion weapons, plasma, fire, and electricity.
Kinetic attacks do full damage so do cold-based attacks. So I could see the argument go
either way. It depends upon how your GM interprets the power as it is described.

My previous question was meant to counter your post I quoted.

[Stone Gargoyle]

Theoretically there would be particles absorbing the energy, light and heat, but would Energy Absorption absorb the particles or just the energy given off?

[Stone Gargoyle]

Possibly, as is these particles that form the waves the energy travels on.

[Iczer]

It's a tough call.

Honestly, I'd rule that force, including vibration and sonics, cold and shadow are not forms of energy. Cold is a lack of energy, and even a severe and draining lack of energy. Vibration, sonics and foce all feel like kinetic energy variants. darkness is hard to quantify, as the examples are pretty vague. however I would rule it's another absence of energy, in the same way that lasers (which in reality generate heat but seem to be distinct and seperate from from heat rays even to the point that fire/heat resistance do not cover them).

I would include particle beams and plasma as acceptable absorption categories.

Batts

[GhostKnight]

Does it protect against energy type magic and psychic powers?

[Sir_Spirit]

I remember, in Black Sun Rising(or was it Crown of Shadows...) an evil guy talking about how his power comes form t hings that are normally seen as the absenceof something.
Specifically, Cold(the absence of heat), Darkness(the absense of light), and Death(the absense of life).

Now, expsecilaly with the first to, you might explain such power as the ability to negate existing energy(heat, light, and life respectively). Or you might claim that the apparant power to manipulate the absense is acutally the power to manipulate an opposing energy/force. Negative energydoes 'exist' but in reality isn't very practical. In superhero physcics however, it could be far more so.

So your Darkness manipulating hero could actually be generating 'antiphotons'(which dont' exist in the real world) or could just be a reverse photokinetic.

[AlanGunhouse]

I was discussing this elsewhere: Cold (and Darkness) are lacks of energy, and lacks of energy can not be projected...therefore what is being projected is some form of energy that absorbs outside energy on the given frequencies. That projected energy could possibly be absorbed.

[Damian Magecraft]

Kinetic is the only thing that works. Going by what is written and the intent I'd say it works on all of the Energy Expulsion powers unless they are gained from a magical source (special rule for that if I remember it correctly).

It's a Major power and is meant to be pretty tough, especially in a game where energy attacks are such a mainstay. Creating too many ways around it would ruin
it I believe.

>>>----Therumancer--->

Agreed
the power goes out of its way to say kinetic attacks are the only ones that do full damage.

But yet again we find ourselves asking "are force bolts a kinetic attack?"
I am inclined to say yes.
every thing else is an energy attack.

[The Baron of chaos]

Theru you give me the chance to arise a question:
between Energy Absorption and Rechannel and expel energy what would you choose?
What's the difference? Energy Absorption it does not seem to offer same advantage as bio-ghost and life leech go. You cannot feed of energy absorbed . Actually you cannot use this energy in not many way. If was purely defensive against energy attack there is a MINOR power that can do pretty much the same. Or the aforementioned Rechannel&expel energy.
With all the new energy powers seem the Energy absorption should be refined a bit before classify as MAJOR
Oh yes in term of SDC(and why not MDC) damage how much is a gigawatt?

[AlanGunhouse]

Personally I thought EE: Freezing Mist might qualify, it does cold damage indirectly.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Energy Absorbtion works on every energy expulsion in the game. Saying anything otherwise is over-analyzing things. it dosn't matter if it's not energy, it effectively is for the purpose of the game.

We're talking about a game where you can have a 90 lb waif crush a tank by running up and kicking it. Science dosn't really interst me at this level of implasuibility

[AlanGunhouse]

Sonic is problematic, I admit. It is generally considered a form of energy though.

[Glistam]

There's a reason it was called Energy Expulsion: Force. The first line in the Create Force Field power says "This is the formidable power to generate an invisible or semi-transpareent field of energy/force." The first line in the Fore Aura power says "The superbeing can surround his body with a powerful energy field that augments physical strength and protects like armor to shield him from harm." The first force power in the game (CFF) and it's first sequel (FA) both define force as energy. So while it can be used defensively as a barrier and is used offensively as a physical projectile, it is still energy. A character with energy absorbtion would just absorb the energy as it hit him.

The Energy Absorbtion power lists the specific types of energy it makes the character immune to, and also ends that sentance with "...and other forms of energy."

I think it's fair game to say that if the power says "Energy Expulsion:" then it's expelling energy and if that energy's not listed in the power's description as something the character is impervious to, then it's covered by the "...other forms of energy" caveat.

Also note that the power Energy Absorbtion specifically lists explosions as a form of Kinetic Energy, and the Detonation power in PU1 is not listed as an "Energy Expulsion:" power.

[Glistam]

But Energy Absorption is not impervious to all damage, the power very clearly states what can damage a character with it. Force attacks are considered energy. Force fields are energy. The first two lines of the Flying Force Disc power state: "The character can create an energy disc of varying size at will. It is a round, flat force field like a large serving sidh or small shield." I don't know what other proof you need. The Energy Expulsion: Force power states, under the damage section: "In addition, the more experienced super being (3rd level and up) can divide the energy to fire two simultaneous blasts at two different targets."

As stated elsewhere, other energy types also posesses a kinetic component, but the Energy Absorbtion power does not make the character take a fraction of that damage. Energy Absorbtion allows the character to "soak up, store, and harmlessly convert and release energy." The Force blast hits the character but is immediately absorbed, doing no damage.

Kevin is very fond of saying that in your game, you may change the rules as you wish. So do so. Instead of defining Force as solidified energy go ahead and define it instead as ectoplasm, air, sand or pancakes. Then it works just like you want, and makes this major power just that much more underpowered again. But it seems pretty clear from the examples given that the game designers mean for Force to be energy.

In most instances, Force attacks should be considered kinetic, since they do kinetic damage. But they are made out of energy. Impact resistance protects against it because it's kinetic damage. Energy resistance does not because it is not absorbing the energy component and thus the kinetic inpact hits squarely.

[AlanGunhouse]

I remember playing a character with Energy Absorption running into a force wielder. The GM ruled I could absorb force fields, given time, but that I still took initial impact from force based attacks. In all, I think it added up to about 1/2 damage. This was before HU2 or any of the PU books.

[Glistam]

I don't know how you can keep falling back to your position of Energy Absorbtion working against all energy, including kinetic. The power very clearly states that kinetic energy is the only exception. You're focusing on the minutia here, and then trying to apply real world explanations to a game where people can fly, bench press busses and have bullets harmlessly bounce off them.

The big picture here is that the power is called Energy Absorption. Not energy immunity. Not energy imperviousness. The power lets you absorb energy. That is what it's doing, and why it tells you that in game effect terms you do not take damage from energy attacks. Because the character absorbs it.

Force is energy. The solid ball/disk/bunny made out of force is thrown at the character with this power. When the force comes in contact with him, he absorbs it, causing no damage to be taken. Just like how he could absorb a spaceship's laser cannon blast and take no damage. Because his power allows him to harmlessly absorb energy. Someone with a different power that just made them immune to energy would still take damage because the force isn't doing any damage anyway, it's the kinetic energy behind it.

I can't understand why this is such a big deal. It's not like Energy Absorbtion is an overbalancing power, with or without the ability to absorb Force. It's not like Force effects are a dime a dozen. There's still plenty of things that a character with this power can't absorb, and thus takes damage from.

[Glistam]

Energy absorbtion does not allow you to absorb a car as it hits you. The analogy is flawed. "Force" as in what's being created by various "Force" powers is different from the generic term force. I don't think you're making that distinction. Energy Absorbtion does not make you immune to any force. But it makes you immune to attacks by solidified energy, which is what Create Force Field, Force Aura, Energy Expulsion: Force, Energy Expulsion: Force Blast, and Flying Force Disc manifest for their powers. It's called Force, but it's not synonymous with force.

I agree 100% that Energy Absorbtion does not allow you to be immune to any force.

[Glistam]

I'm glad I noticed Force Aura because I'm going to bring that power into it too. I'm surprised I didn't notice it until now considering it directly follows Energy Absorption (why is it that it's a 'P' in absorption but a 'B' in absorb?). Going by your logic, if I punch a hero with EA with a Force Aura around me, I won't hurt them at all, and furthermore, my field loses SDC because it will take the amount of damage from my punch instead, since EA dude is absorbing it.

You'd also be able to attack with impunity people with the minor PU1 power of Personal Force Field and be immune to Create Force Constructs.

That's a valid way to adjucate the interaction of these powers. I personally would probably allow the Force Aura character to still apply his strength bonus from the Force Aura to his damage and hurt the Energy Absorption character if he can get close enough for his fists to connect as the hero absorbs the energy surrounding it. You present those examples as if they're problems and I ask again, how is this overpowering? Energy Absorbtion is a major power with no real attacks built into it - it's pretty much just defensive. Having this ability gives it situational utility that is appropriate for a major power.

But anyway, as mentioned, the flaw in your reasoning is that you think energy is doing the damage.

No, I don't think energy is doing that damage. I know it's the kinetic velocity of the impact doing that damage, which is why I make the distinction that simple energy resistance does not protect against it, while impact resistance does. But with Energy Absorption, there is nothing "impacting" the hero because he absorbs the object doing the impact. That's my thoughts and interpretation of this.

I examine each power individually below, and maybe my definitions will shed some light on my viewpoint:

Create Force Field: force bolts - CFF is solid energy. The force bolts are a result of the character creating tiny shapes of their force field and propelling them at a target. Solid energy doing kinetic damage. Energy resistance doesn't protect against it. Impact resistance does. Energy Absorption does. Energy Absorbtion and Impact Resistance both protect against this damage in this specific instance but each of them do it in a different way.

Force Aura - This was discussed earlier in this post.

Energy Expulsion: Force Blast - One of the Vibration power's attacks done as a minor power and should follow the same rules as the vibration power attacks, which are not solid energy being kinetically propelled. Note that this power does not refer to it's attack as energy in it's description. I don't have the Vibration power description with me right now to check the description of that ability.

Energy Expulsion: Force - The Create Force Field power's attack done as a minor power and follows the same rules. You could also consider this power to be one of the Vibration power's attacks done as a minor power, but note that this power does describe the attack as energy, as mentioned in an earlier post.

Flying Force Disc - A minor power variation on the Create Force Field power and follows the same rules

The Vibration power and the PU2 force major power both bring into the mix force attacks that don't utilize solid energy. So you have solid energy, called force, and other attacks, also referred to as force. Two different definitions of "force". So really we're having an arguement over the definition of force, and we're using two different valid definitions. I have found support in the books for my claim that the projections of Create Force Field, Force Aura, Energy Expulsion: Force and Flying Force Disc are made out of energy and subject to being absorbed by a character with Energy Absorbtion. If the object that would do the kinetic damage disappears the instant it contacts a character, how can they take the damage from the kinetic energy behind it?

There wouldn't be a question about this if the power in question was called "Water Absorbtion", and we were examining the scenario of a high pressure water stream hitting the character.