Why is Magic Energy different?

[Chad]

Magic is suppose to alter reality by (I'm guessing) turning one form of energy (PPE) into another.

Why would Magic fire be different from fire, Magic lightning be different from lightning, etc.

Why would some beings be effected by- say, Sub-Particle Acceleration and a Particle Beam would do no harm?

This is something that has never made sense to me.


Please explain your vote, Thanks.

[csbioborg]

its not there is a super power in Heros that specically states magic energy just another type of energy and it therefore absorbed by the hero

[tundro]

I like to think that magic is....well....magic, and isn't easily classified into scientific catagories. I know that's going to rankle a few people, but that's my take on it. Magic seems a whole let less magical when you can lump it into scientific terms and make sense of it.

[Killer Cyborg]

Magic is suppose to alter reality by (I'm guessing) turning one form of energy (PPE) into another.

Why would Magic fire be different from fire, Magic lightning be different from lightning, etc.

Why would some beings be effected by- say, Sub-Particle Acceleration and a Particle Beam would do no harm?

This is something that has never made sense to me.

Please explain your vote, Thanks.

Because it's magic.

[Josh Sinsapaugh]

Magic works outside the normal conventions and laws of science, at least as we know and understand them. It operates under it's own physics while simultaneously warping our own, and is both the poster-child and antithesis of the Laws of Thermo-Dynamics. In effect, magic is the Schroedinger's Cat of Megaversal Physics.

Or, to put it more simply: what Killer Cyborg said.

~ Josh

[csbioborg]

You can really get into problems when it comes to warlock spells. I'm using magic power (PPE) to create and augment natural forces. Is that call lightning magical or electrical? Which vulnerabilities would it take advantage of? What happens when a Zavor gets hit with a warlocks fire bolt?

This is a house rule but magically created but real creations are treated as the same as thier mudan;y created counterpart. A burster can not hurt a vampire with his fire. A Zavor is affected by fireballs etc

I use the magic bane OCC rules which I thoguht wereactually well thought out concerning his immunity (other than his compelte immunity I would have given it a 1/100 but I din't write it)

[Josh Sinsapaugh]

A burster can not hurt a vampire with his fire.

Bursters are psychic, not magic. Besides, magic cannot harm a vampire unless it conjures up water or sunlight (or another weakness).

~ Josh

[Talavar]

A burster can not hurt a vampire with his fire.

Bursters are psychic, not magic. Besides, magic cannot harm a vampire unless it conjures up water or sunlight (or another weakness).

~ Josh

Not exactly so - spells like call lightning & fire ball do 1/2 damage to vampires. They can't kill them, but they can hurt them.

[Blight]

It is considered different for game balance. To give magic an edge.

[Steeler49er]

Magic is suppose to alter reality by (I'm guessing) turning one form of energy (PPE) into another.

Why would Magic fire be different from fire, Magic lightning be different from lightning, etc.

Why would some beings be effected by- say, Sub-Particle Acceleration and a Particle Beam would do no harm?

This is something that has never made sense to me.


Please explain your vote, Thanks.

Great question, and to find that answere you need look No further than that most excellant super RPG by WhiteWolf know as "ABERRANT"<a load quantum boom explosion in the back ground and theme music>.

In the "Trinity Aberrant" chronology it is realized that the energys being used by the supers of that world [Homosapien-Novus] were all using One type of energy that "Appeared" as the real thing. Fire looked, felt and burned like real fire/ Electricity looked, acted and danced around like lightning does, but the strait blasts of Novus<aka Novas> was, in effect, nothing more than a mimicry of said energys.

In the game there are "3" types of energy that can be thrown around;
The first being "Quantum Energy" which can take on Any appearance and mimic any from of Real energy, and even a few which do not exist.
The second was a power called "Quantum Conversion" which change the supers Quantum reserves into REAL energy. Quantum to fire, heat, Various colors of light, electricity...etc.
The Third was the ability to summon, redirect, and store real energys.


Magic in PB is no less limited, you just have to create said spells yourself. It's assumed that when mages would make their standard benchmark fire ball spells they likely never gave much thought to the possable advantages of creating or manipulating real energys, nor making magic energy fully convert over into real fire.

The reasons are simple why to, you see, thoughs "real" fire balls<Quantum bolts in Aberrant/Chi-blasts in Mystic China/and EE:Fire in HUL>would do damage to the caster if not careful or it required hold it for too long (one Nano-second would do when talking about MDC fire).
In HUL for instance, you can shoot your own foot with your own fire ball and Not get hurt, and although a super energys getting converted into real energys is much more thorough than magics, the consept still stands.

Reason two for using "Magical fire" over "Real fire" is that you can direct and control it better. If you can imagine a magic lightning bolt hitting a target 100ft away without a medium (Like copper wire or an Ionnic beam trail) or damaging a target that is grounded (like most tech armors) or that is able to strike at targets around corners and redirect at the last second.
Also, ley lines and nexi enhance magic energys <a majore plus>.

It IS assumed true that magic could do the same with real energy, but it is also assumed that such spells would likely require much more knowledge of real world physics to pull off (Remember, many old-world mages came from tech backwards worlds 100,000 plus years ago) and would likely Not be as knowledgable about such things as tech savi-worlds may be (and likely would wonder why they should be going that rout in the first place when a simple magic fire ball is better).

In games I've created "Real Fire" spells to fight creatures (like those invulnerable bird people from Atlantis) that are imprevious to magic attacks.

[Chad]

Thanks guys. I already know it's 'Magic'. I figured that one out all by myself, but I appreciate the heads up.

That still doesn't explain ( using Talavar's example) why a 2D4 MD Magical fire blast would do half damage to a vampire and a 1D6x10 MD Plasma steam would be completely ignored.

Magic works outside the normal conventions and laws of science, at least as we know and understand them. It operates under it's own physics while simultaneously warping our own, and is both the poster-child and antithesis of the Laws of Thermo-Dynamics. In effect, magic is the Schroedinger's Cat of Megaversal Physics.

In the "Trinity Aberrant" chronology it is realized that the energys being used by the supers of that world [Homosapien-Novus] were all using One type of energy that "Appeared" as the real thing. Fire looked, felt and burned like real fire/ Electricity looked, acted and danced around like lightning does, but the strait blasts of Novus<aka Novas> was, in effect, nothing more than a mimicry of said energys.

An energy outside of the energy of our Universe yet still in our Universe or another type of energy operating on a different 'dimensional frequency' I could see, but Book of Magic pg. 16 states that the scholars in Lazlo have learned- that Magic rearranges energy on a molecular level, thus concluding that we are talking about the same energy used to create fire, lightning, etc. in the first place.
The 'mental manipulation' seems to be what makes it- "Magic", and is the amazing/baffling part.

I still don't see why energy being manipulated by an Energy/Matter Converter, Nature, or Magic would have a different 'end result'.

[Killer Cyborg]

Thanks guys. I already know it's 'Magic'. I figured that one out all by myself, but I appreciate the heads up.

That still doesn't explain ( using Talavar's example) why a 2D4 MD Magical fire blast would do half damage to a vampire and a 1D6x10 MD Plasma steam would be completely ignored.

Because the damage from a plasma blast is due to the straight laws of physics and heat.
The damage from a magical fire blast is due to magic and heat.

Vampires are not (as a rule) vulnerable to the laws of physics (not physical damage, anyway), but they are vulnerable to magic.

If you're looking for a canon, completely spelled-out explanation, you're screwed. There isn't one.
If you're looking for an excuse to just use your own house-rules, this thread is pointless. You don't need an excuse, just do it.

But if you're looking for a reasonable explanation, I have one.

Look at a Fire Ball.
You have a ball of fire about the size of a bowling ball.
It does 1d4 mega-damage per level. Roughly 10x the damage of a flame thrower.

WHY does it inflict that much damage? Is it just THAT hot?
Unlikely. It's a ball of FIRE, not plasma.
Not only that, but it's a ball of fire with no fuel (other than magic, of course).

The reason that a fire ball inflicts that much damage to the target isn't because the actual fire part is that damaging, it's because of the magic aspect of the attack. The fire is more or less just a special effect.
Magic isn't about the laws of physics, it's about the laws of perception. That's why voo-doo dolls and such work; you perceive the doll as the target, and you perceive the damage you inflict on the doll affecting the target.
Fire is a destructive force, so whether or not the actual flame is hot enough to inflict significant damage to the target, the perception is that it should damage the target.
So it does.
Magic is all about belief, about making your belief affect the world around you.
Your fire ball hurts a vampire because you believe that it will, and that's how magic works.
Your plasma ejector will not hurt a vampire, no matter how much you believe it should, because that's NOT how the laws of physics work.

In the words of Aleister Crowley, "Magick is the Science and Art of causing Change to occur in conformity with Will."
Magical fire hurts vampires simply because you will it to.

[csbioborg]

If I believe hard enough will you believe in Dead Boy's version of intiative or vice versa. Comeon, "." becasue its not really fire is a lot more acceptable although I like the rule in the first place

[Chad]

The reason that a fire ball inflicts that much damage to the target isn't because the actual fire part is that damaging, it's because of the magic aspect of the attack. The fire is more or less just a special effect.
Magic isn't about the laws of physics, it's about the laws of perception.

I tend to concur with CSBioBorg. It's a good explanation on the suface, but if Magic (will, perception, etc.) is just a different form of energy, why the need to manifest itself as Lightning, Fire, Particle Beam, etc. Wouldn't it just all be the same? (Neon blue energy {PPE} no matter what?)
And that would seem to contradict the physical manifestaions of Magic- Throwing Stones; Create Wood/Water; Ice; hell, even Anti-Matter.

[Lucas]

i always liked to think that magic was more about altering traits....in this case with fireball the magic user makes magic take the traits of fire (is hot, causes other things to burn) and with experience the caster gets so good ataltering traits that they can make magic even better then real fire so all in all the magic user is basically just warping reality to fit what is going on in there perception and bending magic to fill the roll that they need it for.

[Chad]

I would think it's not glowing blue energy all the time because of the mage casting the spell , rather than the magic. E.g, the mage wants to hurt is enemies so he summons fire and lightning, because he sees those as forces that can do great harm, whats actually happening is his preception of the spell is affecting the appearance and effects of the spell, it would be just as effective to throw 'blue energy' but he (the caster) influences the manifestation so that it fries or frazzles his enemies, it's an easier image for him to believe in, and the belief is vital to the spell, heck he could fire a could of butterflies, to the same result, but he can't make himself believe that would work.

i always liked to think that magic was more about altering traits....in this case with fireball the magic user makes magic take the traits of fire (is hot, causes other things to burn) and with experience the caster gets so good ataltering traits that they can make magic even better then real fire so all in all the magic user is basically just warping reality to fit what is going on in there perception and bending magic to fill the roll that they need it for.

Kind of like an advanced version of 'Green Lantern'. I could see that, but it still seems to contradict what we know about Magic.
The description of the spell 'Create Wood' is a good example of what I'm referring to.

[Killer Cyborg]

The reason that a fire ball inflicts that much damage to the target isn't because the actual fire part is that damaging, it's because of the magic aspect of the attack. The fire is more or less just a special effect.
Magic isn't about the laws of physics, it's about the laws of perception.

I tend to concur with CSBioBorg. It's a good explanation on the suface, but if Magic (will, perception, etc.) is just a different form of energy, why the need to manifest itself as Lightning, Fire, Particle Beam, etc. Wouldn't it just all be the same? (Neon blue energy {PPE} no matter what?)

You're confusing .'s argument with mine.
I never said that magic was "just a different form of energy."

[Steeler49er]

I still don't see why energy being manipulated by an Energy/Matter Converter, Nature, or Magic would have a different 'end result'.

Well, here's another view as to it than.
The magic thats used to "Manipulate" nature (Create lightning IE) is saturating said energy and extending a supernaturalness to said energy, making it effective Vs. vamps but equally detrimental if it hits a Zavor.

[Shiva7]

Consider this...

Don't view magic as energy inthe sameway as fire or lightning, but as stored energy like gasoline, or gravitational potential kinetic energy.

Magic/PPE is a fuel...

A magic fire ball burns because themage wished to create a fire ball, but it uses magic as the fuel, thus it behaves differently from ordinary fire. Once the spell has elapsed, any lingering effects would be ordinary fire using a normal fuel source (wood, etc.)

Remember, different creatures have different vulnerabilities, thus if all magic attacks were the same, then creatures vulnerable to fire would not be affected differently than any other creature. Therefore, a fireball spell would makes sense.

There is a reason why they call it potential psychic energy, it is stored energy, a fuel.

[Chad]

Consider this...
Don't view magic as energy inthe sameway as fire or lightning, but as stored energy like gasoline, or gravitational potential kinetic energy.
Magic/PPE is a fuel...

I think of it like this. A variable laser rifle can change the frequency of energy to deal full damage to laser resistant armor. Well magic is something like this as every spell cast automatically changes the frequency of the energy summoned to deal full damage to things normal energy can't hurt. Kind of like a mystical, metaphysical, variable energy that automatically attunes to the type needed to deal full damage.
....Or something like that anyway.

A combination of these two factors actually make a hell of alot of sense.
Thank y'all!

[glitterboy2098]

one thing to keep in mind is that magic does follow the basic laws of thermodynamics, AKA conservation of energy.

PPE is energy.

"energy cannot be created or destroyed, only changed from one form to another." with the collorary "matter is a form of energy"

PPE is used to generate whatever matter, light, heat, kinetic force, ect the spell produces. thus Energy (PPE) is changed from one form to another. further more we know PPE isn't lost or created, but exists in flux between living things and the ambient enviroment.

"Inside an isolated system out of equilibrium all things tend towards entropy". meaning that the more you try, the harder things get.

a magic spell doing twice the result will not use twice the PPE. it will use more than twice. this is a measure of entropy, in that more complex work requires effort greater than the sum of its parts.

"As a system approaches absolute zero, all processes cease and the entropy of the system approaches a minimum value.". meaning, the less you have, the less that happens.

when there is little PPE, very little magic wise can be done. and as we've seen with BTS and PFRPG, below a certain ambient level, magic is less powerful. and as we've seen in Splicers, an even lower level means even worse reduction in effectiveness.

so magic in the palladium RPG does follow the laws of thermodynamics.


now, the mechanism how how it changes PPE to other forms is unknown. but thats much like our situation with gravity. we know gravity is an attractive force generated by mass. how and why mass and gravity are interrelated is something we still haven't figured out. we do not know the mechanism for why mass has gravity. but that hasn't kept us from making use of it in gliders, orbital mechanics, bombs, ect.

[Marcethus]

Magic is Magic that's why.

[glitterboy2098]

i see the (unknown) mechanic of magic, the process it uses to turn PPE into other forms, as the reason magical effects can damage stuff even when normal versions can't.

your basically manipulating the universe at a very foundational level, and that manipulation is going to have side effects. i just assume that one of these side effects is that the results carry a bit of the reality altering effect with them, resulting in targets who lose their immunity because reality twists to be so.

[csbioborg]

btw do super powers work on say a vampire by canon?

[runebeo]

I think only super powers that damage a vampire is supernal P.S. and water transformation. Could be more, but none come to mind. I think if your powers come from a magical source this may also make some other powers damage them too. It's been awhile since I touched my hero books. In our campaigns we also let most healing powers damage the undead like in other games, but we don't use the water weakness. I like my vampires sexy and well washed.

[csbioborg]

why would SN str affect the vamp if the super hero is not a supernatural being

[Killer Cyborg]

Washing ones hands and saying "it's maaaaaaa-gic" is a cop out.

Yes, it's "magic". But when you can have a generic "power bolt", why bother making it look like electricity? Is water summoned (or even "doubled") not real water? Is lava summoned not real lava?

As part of the "It's magic" crowed, I'll point out to you that few people have tried to make the claim that magical attacks are NOT the energy that they appear.
Magical fire is still fire.

Also, your questions are pretty meaningless. You might as well ask, "When you can have a generic power bolt, why bother making REAL electricity?"

If magic can be "harnessed" with technology (TW),

It can't.
Techno-wizardry is still just magic.
You can call it "technology" in the same sense that painting and languages are technology, but it's not "technology" in the same sense that electronics and mechanics are.

Just because it's "maaaaa-gic" or even Chi or psionics, doesn't mean it's beyond reproach or above any sort of pattern of behavior (ie, "laws of magic", as in "laws of physics").

I don't believe that anybody has claimed differently.

But that's slightly digressed from the original point. Pure magic bolts should be treated as pure magic, but logically, natural phenomena should be treated like the real thing.

You never really DID address the actual question...

(and yes, that means tech could create a true full spectrum bulb that could hurt Vampires, and why not? It's just EMR. But that's a tricky task to accomplish.)

The problem is that vampires aren't vulnerable to a certain frequency of light; they're vulnerable to the sun. It doesn't matter what frequency the sun's rays are, and it doesn't matter what type of sun it is. Why?
Because it's magic.

[Marcethus]

i see the (unknown) mechanic of magic, the process it uses to turn PPE into other forms, as the reason magical effects can damage stuff even when normal versions can't.

your basically manipulating the universe at a very foundational level, and that manipulation is going to have side effects. i just assume that one of these side effects is that the results carry a bit of the reality altering effect with them, resulting in targets who lose their immunity because reality twists to be so.

I agree with this fully.

:roll:

Who lit the fuse on your tampon?

You're still up to your old tricks - having ZERO imagination, and just as much flexibility, while also jumping on anyone who can actually see things that you can't or are unwilling to.

Stars are more than just light, so you failed on that one. Furthermore, as explicitly written, nothing I said would in any way change the game, OTHER than to broaden possibilities and make more sense of everything. So you failed on that one too.

Don't bother with your line by line crap or snooty 'tude, you have blinders on, and that's fine for you, but you are not "right" on this matter.

ok just a heads up don't flamebait we don't need mods to come crashing down on a discussion.

to cover your actually arguements. The problem I have with people trying to put actual laws of physics and logic to magic is that Magic is meant to break the laws of reality and do what can not be done.

Example: Never have you (That I recall in the books) seen a device other than one powered by magic that can tear the barrier between reality and cross it.

Doesn't mean that it couldn't happen but Magic is reality breaking. and mundane things have to follow the laws of reality.


So that is why Magic Energy be it in any form even one that mimics real world energies is different than normal mundane energy.

[csbioborg]

I think there is one alien tech in lone star

[Marcethus]

I think there is one alien tech in lone star

ah the dreaded sector 357 or whatever it meantions that they were testing but hadn't perfected it, and when bradford tested it. It fracked up the complex or at least did a minor quake been a while since i read it. But again my point is that it isnt a fully working device.

[Talavar]

The problem with vampires, and others, is that they aren't hurt by a spectrum of certain light, or the chemical properties of silver, wood or water - they're hurt by symbols, typically symbols of life or goodness. Magic can duplicate those symbolic/mystical properties; a flashlight shining spectrum X of light can't.

This is counter to the current trend of "science fictionizing" vampires, i.e. vampirism caused by a genetic disease, & vampires without a lot of their traditional abilities as seen in movies like the Blade series. Rifts' vampires are a lot more old-school than that.

[glitterboy2098]

as i've pointed out with werewolves, and it runs true with most similar invulnerabilities, the things that hurt thme aren't because of chemical, but rather Alchemical attributes. the sun's spectrum isn't what hurts vamps (from phaseworld, we know that a vamp can be hurt by any form of sunlight, be it from a mainstream G sequence, red giants, white dwarfs, ect), it's the fact that the Sun has signifigance in regards to magical energy. (remeber, there are leylines running from sun to planets, alignments increase the ambient levels of PPE, ect)

so basically natural sunlight has a 'magical' component that technology has not duplicated.

as for technological rifting, the UWW has several cultures who pulled it off, but presumably it was through 'technomncy' or something, devising machines to use PPE to effect a spell like result...which seems to be the same kind of thing in lonestar. why else would the system be using technological machines placed in a pentagram arrangement, a shape so common in connection with mystical stuff?

[Marcethus]

as i've pointed out with werewolves, and it runs true with most similar invulnerabilities, the things that hurt thme aren't because of chemical, but rather Alchemical attributes. the sun's spectrum isn't what hurts vamps (from phaseworld, we know that a vamp can be hurt by any form of sunlight, be it from a mainstream G sequence, red giants, white dwarfs, ect), it's the fact that the Sun has signifigance in regards to magical energy. (remeber, there are leylines running from sun to planets, alignments increase the ambient levels of PPE, ect)

so basically natural sunlight has a 'magical' component that technology has not duplicated.

as for technological rifting, the UWW has several cultures who pulled it off, but presumably it was through 'technomncy' or something, devising machines to use PPE to effect a spell like result...which seems to be the same kind of thing in lonestar. why else would the system be using technological machines placed in a pentagram arrangement, a shape so common in connection with mystical stuff?

The UWW in Phaseworld and other magic societies in that setting do it via a Rift Jump Drive which utilizes huge amounts of Magic Energy (PPE) so a purely technological device hasn't been done yet, And probably can't be done.

[Daniel Stoker]

The UWW in Phaseworld and other magic societies in that setting do it via a Rift Jump Drive which utilizes huge amounts of Magic Energy (PPE) so a purely technological device hasn't been done yet, And probably can't be done.

Well they had one back in the original Beyond the Supernatural game and I'm not sure the one in Lone Star isn't a pure tech version as well that just didn't get some extra 'kick' with the opening of the Rifts.


Daniel Stoker

[Marcethus]

Never seen the original BTS. and the one in lonestar is mentioned only as Fluff text not actually given any game data on it so its all speculation.

[The Beast]

Example: Never have you (That I recall in the books) seen a device other than one powered by magic that can tear the barrier between reality and cross it.

Doesn't mean that it couldn't happen but Magic is reality breaking. and mundane things have to follow the laws of reality.


So that is why Magic Energy be it in any form even one that mimics real world energies is different than normal mundane energy.

Transdimmensional TMNT, pages 52 to 54.

[Natasha]

Never seen the original BTS.

It's a nifty machine although its inner workings are never detailed as I recall.
I always assumed it was a sort of psi-device (from one of the first evolutionary cycles of psi-devices perhaps) or maybe something that draws negligible amounts of P.P.E. from the user. Basically I just assumed a mystical nature.

[Marcethus]

Never seen the original BTS.

It's a nifty machine although its inner workings are never detailed as I recall.
I always assumed it was a sort of psi-device (from one of the first evolutionary cycles of psi-devices perhaps) or maybe something that draws negligible amounts of P.P.E. from the user. Basically I just assumed a mystical nature.

Probably was a precurser to TW.

Example: Never have you (That I recall in the books) seen a device other than one powered by magic that can tear the barrier between reality and cross it.

Doesn't mean that it couldn't happen but Magic is reality breaking. and mundane things have to follow the laws of reality.


So that is why Magic Energy be it in any form even one that mimics real world energies is different than normal mundane energy.

Transdimmensional TMNT, pages 52 to 54.

Quoting Page numbers is useless to me especially for a book that currently resides 160+ miles north of me with my Brother in law. Please give a summary of your point for doing that.

[The Beast]

Example: Never have you (That I recall in the books) seen a device other than one powered by magic that can tear the barrier between reality and cross it.

Doesn't mean that it couldn't happen but Magic is reality breaking. and mundane things have to follow the laws of reality.


So that is why Magic Energy be it in any form even one that mimics real world energies is different than normal mundane energy.

Transdimmensional TMNT, pages 52 to 54.

Quoting Page numbers is useless to me especially for a book that currently resides 160+ miles north of me with my Brother in law. Please give a summary of your point for doing that.

I was simply pointing out where in the Megaverse one could find a tech-only device that can cross into another dimmension or time era.

[Natasha]

Never seen the original BTS.

It's a nifty machine although its inner workings are never detailed as I recall.
I always assumed it was a sort of psi-device (from one of the first evolutionary cycles of psi-devices perhaps) or maybe something that draws negligible amounts of P.P.E. from the user. Basically I just assumed a mystical nature.

Probably was a precurser to TW.

Could very well be that, too. It would be at least a decade after meeting this machine that I would meet TW, however, so the connection isn't one that occurs to me.

[Daniel Stoker]

It's a nifty machine although its inner workings are never detailed as I recall.
I always assumed it was a sort of psi-device (from one of the first evolutionary cycles of psi-devices perhaps) or maybe something that draws negligible amounts of P.P.E. from the user. Basically I just assumed a mystical nature.

Probably was a precurser to TW.

There's nothing in the text to give you that impression though, but you can rule it anyway you want.


Daniel Stoker

[Marcethus]

Example: Never have you (That I recall in the books) seen a device other than one powered by magic that can tear the barrier between reality and cross it.

Doesn't mean that it couldn't happen but Magic is reality breaking. and mundane things have to follow the laws of reality.


So that is why Magic Energy be it in any form even one that mimics real world energies is different than normal mundane energy.

Transdimmensional TMNT, pages 52 to 54.

Quoting Page numbers is useless to me especially for a book that currently resides 160+ miles north of me with my Brother in law. Please give a summary of your point for doing that.

I was simply pointing out where in the Megaverse one could find a tech-only device that can cross into another dimmension or time era.

I see but having not seen Trans TMNT I wouldn't know anything about said device so even a brief description would assist me and those here who also don't have said book.

Never seen the original BTS.

It's a nifty machine although its inner workings are never detailed as I recall.
I always assumed it was a sort of psi-device (from one of the first evolutionary cycles of psi-devices perhaps) or maybe something that draws negligible amounts of P.P.E. from the user. Basically I just assumed a mystical nature.

Probably was a precurser to TW.

Could very well be that, too. It would be at least a decade after meeting this machine that I would meet TW, however, so the connection isn't one that occurs to me.

Well what I meant was it being a device of mystical nature yet technological (correct me if I am wrong but that was the impression given on the nature of the device) it could be said to be a precursor to TW devices.

[Natasha]

Well what I meant was it being a device of mystical nature yet technological (correct me if I am wrong but that was the impression given on the nature of the device) it could be said to be a precursor to TW devices.

I understood you.

[Killer Cyborg]

I was simply pointing out where in the Megaverse one could find a tech-only device that can cross into another dimmension or time era.

I see but having not seen Trans TMNT I wouldn't know anything about said device so even a brief description would assist me and those here who also don't have said book.

Transdimensional TMNT has rules for tech-based time machines and interdimensional travel machines.

[Killer Cyborg]

as i've pointed out with werewolves, and it runs true with most similar invulnerabilities, the things that hurt thme aren't because of chemical, but rather Alchemical attributes. the sun's spectrum isn't what hurts vamps (from phaseworld, we know that a vamp can be hurt by any form of sunlight, be it from a mainstream G sequence, red giants, white dwarfs, ect), it's the fact that the Sun has signifigance in regards to magical energy. (remeber, there are leylines running from sun to planets, alignments increase the ambient levels of PPE, ect)

Exactly.

[Natasha]

we know that a vamp can be hurt by any form of sunlight

Not if it's reflected sunlight.
Please be more specific.

[Killer Cyborg]

we know that a vamp can be hurt by any form of sunlight

Not if it's reflected sunlight.
Please be more specific.

That depends on what it's reflected off of.

How about "light that has the Sun as its primary mystical origin?"

Better?

[Natasha]

Sunlight can be reflected off of the Moon, the planets, the international space station, Irdium communications satellites, the oribital debris of Rifts Earth, the particles in the atmosphere, the ground itself, and perhaps some stuff not off the top of my head.

I assume since you're using capitalised 'S' because you mean the star that anchors a solar system and not the billions of other stars in the sky. If so, then the Sun is, I presume, the only origin of sunlight: no Sun, no sunlight in this context.

[Marcethus]

Sunlight can be reflected off of the Moon, the planets, the international space station, Irdium communications satellites, the oribital debris of Rifts Earth, the particles in the atmosphere, the ground itself, and perhaps some stuff not off the top of my head.

I assume since you're using capitalised 'S' because you mean the star that anchors a solar system and not the billions of other stars in the sky. If so, then the Sun is, I presume, the only origin of sunlight: no Sun, no sunlight in this context.

Better way to put it Vampires and other SN beings that have said vulnerability to it are Vulnerable to the Alchemical and Mystic properties of the Light of Day. or the Light of the Sun.

Your getting way to technical which is the problem with this whole Arguement.

Magic Energy is Magical because its unknown it can't be quantified with simple or even complex physics it is beyond such things it is above such things. It follows its on laws and rules which govern it and it alone. Real world Physics means nothing to that which by its very nature bends reality to its will.

Which on a side note is why the CS fears it so much.

[Natasha]

Sunlight can be reflected off of the Moon, the planets, the international space station, Irdium communications satellites, the oribital debris of Rifts Earth, the particles in the atmosphere, the ground itself, and perhaps some stuff not off the top of my head.

I assume since you're using capitalised 'S' because you mean the star that anchors a solar system and not the billions of other stars in the sky. If so, then the Sun is, I presume, the only origin of sunlight: no Sun, no sunlight in this context.

Better way to put it Vampires and other SN beings that have said vulnerability to it are Vulnerable to the Alchemical and Mystic properties of the Light of Day. or the Light of the Sun.

Would you agree then that Vampires won't go out under a Full or otherwise non-New Moon at Night if there is no difference between the Light of Day and the Light of the Sun?

Your getting way to technical which is the problem with this whole Arguement.

I'm just trying to find the line.