Why does"Enviormental" stop magic ?

[Lenwen]

Question is simple and I would be VERY interested in see'ing what logically speaking you all thought about this subject.

Question the first:
Why does having "Enviormental" ability built into what ever .. basically stop some forms of magic ?

I mean litterally if some one stuck some optic's system and some form of locomotion on to a Fridge, Because its enviormentally sealed it would stop some forms of magic.

Why is it that this "Enviormental" "Ability" stop some forms of magic ?

[Josh Sinsapaugh]

Examples?

~ Josh

[Lenwen]

Examples?

~ Josh

Anything with "Enviormental" abilities, such as armors , vehicles, robots ... anything that basically has a different enviorment then that of the natural enviorment outside of what it is the PC is in .

Understand?

This is sorta hard to explain,

Battle Armors (Enviormentally sealed)
Vehicles ( enviormentally sealed )
Robots ( Enviormentally sealed )

[runebeo]

I think it blocks line of sight thats the main reason. They should make a few more spells like a spell to cause vertigo effect and make spells like blinding flash effect people in power armor. I do know polarized optics should reduce the duration but it is magic after all.

[Josh Sinsapaugh]

Examples?

~ Josh

Anything with "Enviormental" abilities, such as armors , vehicles, robots ... anything that basically has a different enviorment then that of the natural enviorment outside of what it is the PC is in .

Understand?

This is sorta hard to explain,

Battle Armors (Enviormentally sealed)
Vehicles ( enviormentally sealed )
Robots ( Enviormentally sealed )

No, I know what environmentally sealed means.

I mean what kinds of magic/spells are you thinking of? It helps if you narrow it down because a blanket response might not be appropriate.

~ Josh

[Wildfire]

To survivein a fridge you would have to be indiana Jones in a very bad movie

[Lenwen]

Examples?

~ Josh

Anything with "Enviormental" abilities, such as armors , vehicles, robots ... anything that basically has a different enviorment then that of the natural enviorment outside of what it is the PC is in .

Understand?

This is sorta hard to explain,

Battle Armors (Enviormentally sealed)
Vehicles ( enviormentally sealed )
Robots ( Enviormentally sealed )

No, I know what environmentally sealed means.

I mean what kinds of magic/spells are you thinking of? It helps if you narrow it down because a blanket response might not be appropriate.

~ Josh

Generally your right, "Blanket" statements should not be made. But this situation is 100% completly different. There is no spell that can effect the participant who is in fact in "Enviormentally" sealed anything (Armors, vehicles, Robots .. yadda yadda yadda )

So my question is at its base form..

Why does being "Enviormentally" sealed .. stop magic ?

[Dustin Fireblade]

Generally your right, "Blanket" statements should not be made. But this situation is 100% completly different. There is no spell that can effect the participant who is in fact in "Enviormentally" sealed anything (Armors, vehicles, Robots .. yadda yadda yadda )

So my question is at its base form..

Why does being "Enviormentally" sealed .. stop magic ?

Be careful now -

A Line Walker might try to pop out of a tree and cast a Carper of Adhesion on a Fusion Block and then teleport it to your SAMAS' head. You can then tell the GM that your suit is Environmentally sealed and stops magic.

[Lenwen]

Generally your right, "Blanket" statements should not be made. But this situation is 100% completly different. There is no spell that can effect the participant who is in fact in "Enviormentally" sealed anything (Armors, vehicles, Robots .. yadda yadda yadda )

So my question is at its base form..

Why does being "Enviormentally" sealed .. stop magic ?

Be careful now -

A Line Walker might try to pop out of a tree and cast a Carper of Adhesion on a Fusion Block and then teleport it to your SAMAS' head. You can then tell the GM that your suit is Environmentally sealed and stops magic.

I did find it extreamly funny that people said that would not work .. and had zero real logical debat other then .. they diden't want it to work ..

THAT was funny as it gets ..

[The Beast]

Be careful now -

A Line Walker might try to pop out of a tree and cast a Carper of Adhesion on a Fusion Block and then teleport it to your SAMAS' head. You can then tell the GM that your suit is Environmentally sealed and stops magic.

[Dustin Fireblade]

Well I think Runebeo got it. Some spells require a specific line of sight to the target. I see no reason why a Multiple Image spell wouldn't work against a crew piloting a giant robot.

That said I think Palladium needs to re-work their magic vs. tech.


Or do you mean if the caster is inside said environmentally closed robot or EBA?

[Lenwen]

Well I think Runebeo got it. Some spells require a specific line of sight to the target. I see no reason why a Multiple Image spell wouldn't work against a crew piloting a giant robot.

That said I think Palladium needs to re-work their magic vs. tech.


Or do you mean if the caster is inside said environmentally closed robot or EBA?

Either way.

Why does magic have such HUGE penalties for being inside of an Enviormentally sealed ( anything ) trying to cast its magic it IS magic, hello !! haha

And again mages casting against Enviormentally sealed (anything) other then damage spells its totally ( usually ) negated due to the "Eviormental" seal..

Does palladium know or understand its "Magic" and just because it has a small piece of "rubber" or some type of a rubber gromet on it does not mean it is now basically "impervious" to magic .. that makes no sense .. at least .. not to me .

[cornholioprime]

Examples?

~ Josh

Anything with "Enviormental" abilities, such as armors , vehicles, robots ... anything that basically has a different enviorment then that of the natural enviorment outside of what it is the PC is in .

Understand?

This is sorta hard to explain,

Battle Armors (Enviormentally sealed)
Vehicles ( enviormentally sealed )
Robots ( Enviormentally sealed )

The Answer to your question actually lies outside of the Game.

Simply put: Kevin doesn't want 10th level Mages (or Mages of any level, really) blasting foes to smithereens from within the safety of an armored vehicle or Power Armor.

And it isn't just "line of sight," either; if you're in a vehicle, you can't use magic, at least not against foes on the outside of the vehicle even if you can see them and are using a 'line-of-sight' Spell.

[Lenwen]

Examples?

~ Josh

Anything with "Enviormental" abilities, such as armors , vehicles, robots ... anything that basically has a different enviorment then that of the natural enviorment outside of what it is the PC is in .

Understand?

This is sorta hard to explain,

Battle Armors (Enviormentally sealed)
Vehicles ( enviormentally sealed )
Robots ( Enviormentally sealed )

The Answer to your question actually lies outside of the Game.

Simply put: Kevin doesn't want 10th level Mages (or Mages of any level, really) blasting foes to smithereens from within the safety of an armored vehicle or Power Armor.

And it isn't just "line of sight," either; if you're in a vehicle, you can't use magic, at least not against foes on the outside of the vehicle even if you can see them and are using a 'line-of-sight' Spell.

So then "Magic" has been forced into a weaker state then tech, because KS does not want it any other way ?

No wonder no magic put into canon has a chance against a Tech Laden opponant.

The creator of the system, does not want it to stand a chance against Tech.

lmfao I know your serious an I understand this is bound to be the BEST answer to my question regaurdless of how long this thread lives ..

But there is something very discomforting ... in the very fact that the games creator does not want the magic side to be equally as sound as its tech side ...

[Mack]

So then "Magic" has been forced into a weaker state then tech, because KS does not want it any other way ?

Here's your fallacy. Magic is not weaker than Technology. As the game exists, they're in a pretty good balance. If all spells were able to bypass all armor types then the scale would be massively tipped into Magic's favor.

[Library Ogre]

I kinda fall into the school of thought that comes from another RPG in that when a mage cast a spell he is basically becoming the starting point of a conduit of magical energy. He now must choose the end point for the conduit, which gives him two choices, a specific target or a specific direction. In order to affect a target he must be able to see it in the same environment as himself so that the conduit can lock onto the aura of the target (ie, unrestricted line of site). If the target is in a vehicle or robot then the mage can't see through it for a natural look at the targets aura and therefore has to choose direction.

This means he summons the magical energy of a fireball and sends it at the vehicle, letting the elemental energies affect the vehicle and damage it.

Of course clear glass wouldn't block the mages natural site so all vehicles would need to be tinted, etc.

This is largely how I view it. Magic that affects a person's aura (which is most magics without a physical component) needs to be able to "see" the aura. Environmentally shielded suits have the side effect of mostly shielding people from magic, as well, by bottling up their auras.

[Lenwen]

So then "Magic" has been forced into a weaker state then tech, because KS does not want it any other way ?

Here's your fallacy. Magic is not weaker than Technology. As the game exists, they're in a pretty good balance. If all spells were able to bypass all armor types then the scale would be massively tipped into Magic's favor.

Not offensivly, its not even close.

As well as not defensivly, its not even close.

The only places in which Magic is better then tech is Dimensional travelling and Teleportation. Outside of those two things Tech whoops the ever living pewp outta magic in most other aspects.

[Incriptus]

By entering an enviornmentally sealed enviornment you have attempted to physically seal yourself away from nature. By doing so you have meta-physically sealed yourself away also. You have willingly and psychologically cut yourself off from the outside world, if you flee from the world you certainly can't use your magical energy against it.

[Lenwen]

By entering an enviornmentally sealed enviornment you have attempted to physically seal yourself away from nature. By doing so you have meta-physically sealed yourself away also. You have willingly and psychologically cut yourself off from the outside world, if you flee from the world you certainly can't use your magical energy against it.

So basically your telling me that a few well placed rubber gromets .. on a body armor .. ( which makes it enviormental ) is all it takes to totally negate any spells from the caster on the inside of the armor ?

That would mean "rubber" for all intents and pourposes trumps magic .. in all its forms .. I find this thought extreamly funny .

[Library Ogre]

By entering an enviornmentally sealed enviornment you have attempted to physically seal yourself away from nature. By doing so you have meta-physically sealed yourself away also. You have willingly and psychologically cut yourself off from the outside world, if you flee from the world you certainly can't use your magical energy against it.

So basically your telling me that a few well placed rubber gromets .. on a body armor .. ( which makes it enviormental ) is all it takes to totally negate any spells from the caster on the inside of the armor ?

That would mean "rubber" for all intents and pourposes trumps magic .. in all its forms .. I find this thought extreamly funny .

Because you're thinking of an environmentally sealed suit as being rubber grommets. And if you think that, of course you're going to find explanations funny.

[Lenwen]

By entering an enviornmentally sealed enviornment you have attempted to physically seal yourself away from nature. By doing so you have meta-physically sealed yourself away also. You have willingly and psychologically cut yourself off from the outside world, if you flee from the world you certainly can't use your magical energy against it.

So basically your telling me that a few well placed rubber gromets .. on a body armor .. ( which makes it enviormental ) is all it takes to totally negate any spells from the caster on the inside of the armor ?

That would mean "rubber" for all intents and pourposes trumps magic .. in all its forms .. I find this thought extreamly funny .

Because you're thinking of an environmentally sealed suit as being rubber grommets. And if you think that, of course you're going to find explanations funny.

Lets be real if the CS armors were real.. thats the part that would make them "enviormentally sealed" .

[runebeo]

I kinda fall into the school of thought that comes from another RPG in that when a mage cast a spell he is basically becoming the starting point of a conduit of magical energy. He now must choose the end point for the conduit, which gives him two choices, a specific target or a specific direction. In order to affect a target he must be able to see it in the same environment as himself so that the conduit can lock onto the aura of the target (ie, unrestricted line of site). If the target is in a vehicle or robot then the mage can't see through it for a natural look at the targets aura and therefore has to choose direction.

This means he summons the magical energy of a fireball and sends it at the vehicle, letting the elemental energies affect the vehicle and damage it.

Of course clear glass wouldn't block the mages natural site so all vehicles would need to be tinted, etc.

I think your way underestimating how truly powerful magic is in Rifts. Technology has a range, fire power and with most vehicles speed advantage on their side yes. On magic side it cost no money to cast spells, while technology cost money left and right to uses. Magic has the ability to control people, demons, golems, zombies, animals, monsters, storms and even time. One spell not often talked about is summon & control sea serpents and in Rifts their sea serpents with thousands of M.D.C. and some can even walk on land, with a dozen sea serpents you could destroy a coastal city in an evening. A man who uses technology is powerful with it but take it away hes a shell of his former self. A mage can go completely naked and wield an incredible amount of power, now thats the real meaning of power too me. A mage's greatest advantage is being able to build an army of minions for no cost.

[Incriptus]

Why & When magic works isn't a science . . . it's magic

[Lenwen]

Lets be real if the CS armors were real

No see, THAT's funny.

Naa but for real whats funny is that a rubber gromet would stop a spell .. because it would make the suit "Enviormentally sound" ..

There in lies the whole halarious idea of "Enviormentally" protected suits trumps "Magic" ..

[cornholioprime]

By entering an enviornmentally sealed enviornment you have attempted to physically seal yourself away from nature. By doing so you have meta-physically sealed yourself away also. You have willingly and psychologically cut yourself off from the outside world, if you flee from the world you certainly can't use your magical energy against it.

Seriously, you're reading FAR too much into it; when you try to do so, you find out that trying to apply Cold, Hard Logic to the "why" behind Magic and Sealed Things is just tilting at windmills.

The Rule is, obviously, not a hard and fast rule because, as the Poster above you so accurately pointed out, some forms of Magic DO 'penetrate' Sealed Environments, Armor, and Robots (as do some forms of Psionics).

Try to use Logic as the "why" behind the principle and you'll end up rolling on the Insanity Table in Real Life.

Simply accept the principle as one of the best anti-munchkin tools around (like the one where the Squishy Parts in a 'Borg can't be targeted by a Phase Weapon, but the squishies inside a heavily-armored Spaceship can be), and you'll be just fine.

"It's Rifts. It doesn't have to make sense."

-Author unknown

[Lenwen]

1) - Since the e-clip is likely to be full or near full, if the mage hits then BOOM 2D6X10 M.D.C. to a 10 foot radius. This trick can also be used in combat although like any combat it's harder with dodges.

2) - I have used compulsion to crack Glitterboys out of their armor, 'you suddenly have a great desire to leave that armor and go for a nice cool swim in that river over there'. There's not a lot of tech that can take a Glitterboy out of action and leave the suit fully intact.

Magic is not weak. You just have to be cunning in it's application.

I like what your saying but truthfully .. both scenario's are extreamly unlikely.

1) - The mage would have to be within 100ft (per lvl) of the eclips . No way any mage gets that close to a militarized squad with out being spotted especially if thier in P.A. of any kind or even samas of any kind .

2) - How did the mage get within 60ft of the Glitterboy with out being spotted ? GB's have all the same optic's as any other Power Armor suit, and should have been spotted .. long before being able to get into spell magic range ..

Again Range is one of the key weakness's of magic and as such is one of its largest reasons why you should not be a mage its not one of its better stats .. by any stretch of the imagination ..

[Lenwen]

There is no sensor or optic that can see through superior invis. And the mage can stack it with simple invis and aura of death so that they stays invis (even to thermal) even after he/she starts casting the offensive spell.

Even if there are dog-boys with them it's possible for mages to stay out of the dog Boy's range of active magic when using longer range spells like sub-particle acceleration.

Magic is not weaker than tech if played right.

1) - As soon as the Mage starts casting his offensive spell Invis Greater is negated, not to mention that "Aura of Death" surrounds the character in a flickering flame ... thusly negating both "Invis" spells to begin with...

Not to mention Invis greater is a lvl 11 spell which means its easier to find and purchase a Rune weapon then it is to find that particular spell what so ever ..

2) - In order for a mage to stay out of the range of Dog boys they thusly take themselves out of most magic range that would do anything worth the effort against a dogpack.

Magic in the palladium setting has been hamstringed by lack of any real range as well as any real damage.
Especially so since in order to play a mage the right way they "frown" upon tech in all its forms...

[runebeo]

1) - Since the e-clip is likely to be full or near full, if the mage hits then BOOM 2D6X10 M.D.C. to a 10 foot radius. This trick can also be used in combat although like any combat it's harder with dodges.

2) - I have used compulsion to crack Glitterboys out of their armor, 'you suddenly have a great desire to leave that armor and go for a nice cool swim in that river over there'. There's not a lot of tech that can take a Glitterboy out of action and leave the suit fully intact.

Magic is not weak. You just have to be cunning in it's application.

I like what your saying but truthfully .. both scenario's are extreamly unlikely.

1) - The mage would have to be within 100ft (per lvl) of the eclips . No way any mage gets that close to a militarized squad with out being spotted especially if thier in P.A. of any kind or even samas of any kind .

2) - How did the mage get within 60ft of the Glitterboy with out being spotted ? GB's have all the same optic's as any other Power Armor suit, and should have been spotted .. long before being able to get into spell magic range ..

Again Range is one of the key weakness's of magic and as such is one of its largest reasons why you should not be a mage its not one of its better stats .. by any stretch of the imagination ..

Range is the best reason to play a mage. Range in spells, skills, versatility and the range in his possible hundred plus minions. Look at the all summon & control spells, Tame beast (one monster predator every 2 levels double for shifters), create zombie, mummy, golem, doppleganger, familiars (animal or greater), phantom horse, magic warrior, ensorcel and the best spell for making a enemy into supernatural minion the Transformation spell. Don't forget a mage can also have some friendly pets like a half dozen Demonrunners or other monsterous creatures. Necromancers can control one young secondary vampire per level, summon as many demon magots as long he can get the P.P.E. together and they can ever transfer their life force to another dead body. A good mage can defeat you while sit at home and never even see combat, why get in harms way against cowards in mechanical monster who won't face a mage man to man when hes got his own army of monsters & minions. "In chess, the pawns go first."

[Lenwen]

1) Aura of Death flickering flames gives off no light and no heat per the description so therefore they are not seen. Yeah the greater invis is canceled soon as the mage starts casting either the sub-particle spell or the compulsion. But the simple invis and aura of death is still up. Even if it wasn't a good mage casting from cover is not likely to be spotted in the few seconds it takes to cast.

Invis Superior is only a lvl 7 spell. Not that hard to get just expensive(or free if it's one of their intuitively learned spells which for some mage classes is all of them).

2) Dog Boys only sense active magic/psionics at a range of 400ft +50 feet per level. That means if both were equal levels then anything after level 7 is going to give the range advantage to the sub-particle casting mage. That's if they are the same level, likely the mage capable of casting those spells will be higher level than a squad of average CS troopers.

1) - Aura of Death, and the invis spells are "trackable" by Dogboys who will sence the magic is being used in thier sensing ranges . A average lvl 3-5 dogboy will be able to trace that PPE scent back with little to no trouble.

Invis Sup is a 7th lvl spell and I was absolutly 100% wrong on that part. Gotta give ya props on pointing that out for me man. ( not being sarcastic I really am giving you props thank you )

2) - I totally agree. No mage not 7th lvl wont be able to cast that particular spell due to everything in print about how hard it is to find certain spells an other such things ..

[Proseksword]

Lenwan -

You keep accusing anyone & everyone of having a pro-technology bias, but I think you have a pro-magic bias.

Simply put, if the rules allowed you to teleport things inside of armor with an environmental seal, any technology based faction would be wiped out within a week. If you could teleport a hand grenade inside of any power armor or giant robot, or mind control the pilots, then technology using factions have no ability to counter it.

Magic users are already plenty strong. Negate Mechanics allows them to shut down electronic devices. Teleportation allows the Mage to attack without warning at any time, any where. Why fight the enemy while he's all geared up on patrol? Teleport into his barracks with a grenade and kill him in his underwear. Invisibility allows a Mage to go completely undetected by a tech user, allowing him to spring the perfect ambush almost every time.

So what if a Mage can't meet a Giant Robot in an open field and beat it to a pulp? The Mage can drop the robot into a pocket dimension. Mages fight smarter, not harder. They don't need to deal more MDC and be able to take more damage, because they can do things no one else can do.

Stop being worried about the limitations imposed by the rules and start looking for the smart ways mages can use their abilities. Your thread on the fusion block teleport was a great start. I think you'll find there are a lot of wicked things mages are capable of if you just put your mind to it.

[Lenwen]

Lenwan -

You keep accusing anyone & everyone of having a pro-technology bias, but I think you have a pro-magic bias.

1) - Simply put, if the rules allowed you to teleport things inside of armor with an environmental seal, any technology based faction would be wiped out within a week. If you could teleport a hand grenade inside of any power armor or giant robot, or mind control the pilots, then technology using factions have no ability to counter it.

Magic users are already plenty strong.
2) - Negate Mechanics allows them to shut down electronic devices.
3) - Teleportation allows the Mage to attack without warning at any time, any where.
4) - Why fight the enemy while he's all geared up on patrol? Teleport into his barracks with a grenade and kill him in his underwear.
5) - Invisibility allows a Mage to go completely undetected by a tech user, allowing him to spring the perfect ambush almost every time.

6) - So what if a Mage can't meet a Giant Robot in an open field and beat it to a pulp? The Mage can drop the robot into a pocket dimension. Mages fight smarter, not harder. They don't need to deal more MDC and be able to take more damage, because they can do things no one else can do.

Stop being worried about the limitations imposed by the rules and start looking for the smart ways mages can use their abilities. Your thread on the fusion block teleport was a great start. I think you'll find there are a lot of wicked things mages are capable of if you just put your mind to it.

1) - Its not about teleporting explosive's into armor that makes me think magic is far and away behind tech of any sort. Its the inability of a mage to use any sort of MDC armors with out getting HUGE penalties for it . And then being told spells could use up to 3 actions to cast just to armor ones self prior to the battle, while your opponant can shoot you from 5+ miles away with out penalty of any kind ..

It gets a little redundent to play a caster when your every avenue is penalized in 1 form or another .
2) - Negate Mechanic's has a range of touch to 100ft away. Not exactly range enough to cast it Safly.. now is it ?

3) - Teleportation is also expensive and rare, to the point that its easier to find and purchase yourself a Rune weapon then it is to find an purchase the Spell Teleport : Greater. And whoa to anyone who has to cast that spell because sitting at 600 ppe to cast by the books no Human mage of any kind can cast the spell because of Energy Sphere's in ability to give the mage more then 3x thier "BASE" PPE amount. There goes that whole plan.

4) - Again your 90% of the time forced to fight where you stand not becuase its what you choose but rather its where you were found by the enemies. And again Teleportation :Sup: is just bearly beyond any Human mage's capabilities to cast PPE wise. And lets not even talk about a possible scroll because the vast majority of your class is unable to read much less create a workable scroll .

5) - Invisibility :Lesser can be seen by anyone with a thermal optic's there goes that plan, Invis:Sup will be negated the instant you start casting there goes that one .. Again this is not looking good for a mage, because now your two invisibility abilities are null an void and your close enough to cast on an enemy means thier close enough to spot you with thier regular optics which means your within his line of fire by about 1,000 to 1,600 feet and you have the ability to cast 1 spell off before that guy uses his laser/Plasma rifle an mists you permanently ..

6) - Its not about being able to go up against a Robot and beat it to a pulp, its about at LEAST being able to go up against EBA and at LEAST being able to survive the first 2 minutes of contact. Which clearly, no casting mage will do if thier inside the range of the weapons of the tech opponant.

I do believe their are all kinds of ways a mage could use thier magic to vengfull ways and powerfully attacking tech opponants. Unfortunatly that is less then 20% of the time tho and in a straight up fight an EBA clad person with even a wilks laser pistol is flat out just TOO much for the average spell casting mage to even tussle with even for a couple of minutes.

Magic used to buff up ones self as well as magic used to attack in that same combat scenario is going to leave that mage with zero PPE to effect an escape, unless he was doing such a thing prior to the start of the combat.


Again its not about going up against robots its about being able to survive a couple minute long combat scenario with even the most mundane of eba and tech weapons.

[Nightmaster]

I think I know what lenwen is trying to say and you guys are analysing it in the wrong perspective.

To really see if the game is balanced you need to place both oposing parts on the same level in terms of abilities. That is the real problem with magic in a "by the book" aproach.

First if we talk about any kind of mage character that is not a Ley Line Walker then yes a mage casting a 10th level spell would have to be at 10th level or more but Ley Line mages and the kind like then dont need to be high level to cast any spell. Their only restriction is PPE pure and simple and there are ways to circunvent that problem.

Second, purchansing a spell can really be expensive but in regards to this thread we can assume the mage purchaged the spell.

Thus at 1st level a Ley Line Walker against any tech warrior of the same level would have at most 2D4x10 PPE plus PE atribute so his max PPE at 1st lvl is 110 PPE.

Now the comparission:

1st Level Ley Line Walker
Spell: Sub-Particle Acceleration - lvl 7 spell
Range: 100 feet (30 m) per level
Damage: 1D6x10 M.D.
PPE: 20
- A 1st level caster max range is 100 feet and that is way too small if you make the comparission against even a simple laser pistol which range normally is around 600 feet or more.

Spell: Invicible Armor - lvl 8 spell
Range: Self
PPE: 30
- A good protection but the fact that it protect only 25 MD and renegerate a pityful 1D6 per melee dont make much protection for a 1st level mage of any kind. EBAs normally have MD in the range of 60+. True they dont regenerate but for a 1st level that is really something.

Spell: Energy Bolt - lvl 3 spell
Range: 150 feet (45.7 m)
PPE: 5
- Could have been a good spell and the range is not that bad for a level 3 spell but the fact that it have a fixed range and dont do MD damage makes it wortless.

Spell: Orb of Cold - lvl 3 spell
Range: 200 feet (61 m)
Damage: 3D6 MD plus numbness
PPE: 6
- Good spell but again it lack range if compared to pistol weapons and what is worst the range is fixed. The numbness is wortless since the target is probably in a EBA and thus protected from the special effect of the spell. Only usable in Juicers in my opinion and then only if the Juices is not wearing one of the EBAs presented in the Juicer Uprising book.

Spell: Fire Bolt - lvl 4 spell
Range: 100 feet (30 m) plus 5 feet per level
Damage: 4D6 MD
PPE: 7
- The best spell so far but again range is a lost cause and the increasement per level is a joke. It would take a 15th level mage to have a range 275 (82.5 m) feet when casting that spell and even then the mage is best if using a pistol.

Spell: Power Bolt - lvl 6 spell
Range: 1600 feet (487 m) + 100 feet (30 m) per level
Damage: 5D6 MD +2 MD per level of the caster
PPE: 20
- Finally a very good spell that put the mage in the same level of the tech warrior but the PPE cost makes the mage being able to use it only 5 times before his PPE goes zero or almost zero.

I will stop from there. The mage character is really screwed at first level with the majority of the spell. Even the non combat spells have ranges so ridiculous that is a curious thing that mages are so feared by the CS. Except from Impervious to energy there is no other spell that really give the mage any advantage at all.

The Tech Warrior would have a EBA (60+ MDC); a energy pistol with an average damage of 2D4 MD range around 600 feet or more and at least 10 shots per e-clip; a energy rifle with a average damage of 2D6 to 6D6 MD, range around 1600 feet or more and payload of 20 shots at least; 3 to 4 grenades of any kind.

-----------------------------------------------

I cant see how this thing is balanced because the tech warrior would have at least two to three free attacks against the mage before the mage even get into range to cast any of his offensive spells. The defensive spells can be cast before but again they will not last long and unless the mage cast Impervious to energy (cost 20 PPE and last 2 minutes at 1st level) and the tech warrior dont have any kind of non-energy weapon the mage is toast.

[Lenwen]

I think I know what lenwen is trying to say and you guys are analysing it in the wrong perspective.

To really see if the game is balanced you need to place both oposing parts on the same level in terms of abilities. That is the real problem with magic in a "by the book" aproach.

First if we talk about any kind of mage character that is not a Ley Line Walker then yes a mage casting a 10th level spell would have to be at 10th level or more but Ley Line mages and the kind like then dont need to be high level to cast any spell. Their only restriction is PPE pure and simple and there are ways to circunvent that problem.

Second, purchansing a spell can really be expensive but in regards to this thread we can assume the mage purchaged the spell.

Thus at 1st level a Ley Line Walker against any tech warrior of the same level would have at most 2D4x10 PPE plus PE atribute so his max PPE at 1st lvl is 110 PPE.

Now the comparission:

1st Level Ley Line Walker
Spell: Sub-Particle Acceleration - lvl 7 spell
Range: 100 feet (30 m) per level
Damage: 1D6x10 M.D.
PPE: 20
- A 1st level caster max range is 100 feet and that is way too small if you make the comparission against even a simple laser pistol which range normally is around 600 feet or more.

Spell: Invicible Armor - lvl 8 spell
Range: Self
PPE: 30
- A good protection but the fact that it protect only 25 MD and renegerate a pityful 1D6 per melee dont make much protection for a 1st level mage of any kind. EBAs normally have MD in the range of 60+. True they dont regenerate but for a 1st level that is really something.

Spell: Energy Bolt - lvl 3 spell
Range: 150 feet (45.7 m)
PPE: 5
- Could have been a good spell and the range is not that bad for a level 3 spell but the fact that it have a fixed range and dont do MD damage makes it wortless.

Spell: Orb of Cold - lvl 3 spell
Range: 200 feet (61 m)
Damage: 3D6 MD plus numbness
PPE: 6
- Good spell but again it lack range if compared to pistol weapons and what is worst the range is fixed. The numbness is wortless since the target is probably in a EBA and thus protected from the special effect of the spell. Only usable in Juicers in my opinion and then only if the Juices is not wearing one of the EBAs presented in the Juicer Uprising book.

Spell: Fire Bolt - lvl 4 spell
Range: 100 feet (30 m) plus 5 feet per level
Damage: 4D6 MD
PPE: 7
- The best spell so far but again range is a lost cause and the increasement per level is a joke. It would take a 15th level mage to have a range 275 (82.5 m) feet when casting that spell and even then the mage is best if using a pistol.

Spell: Power Bolt - lvl 6 spell
Range: 1600 feet (487 m) + 100 feet (30 m) per level
Damage: 5D6 MD +2 MD per level of the caster
PPE: 20
- Finally a very good spell that put the mage in the same level of the tech warrior but the PPE cost makes the mage being able to use it only 5 times before his PPE goes zero or almost zero.

I will stop from there. The mage character is really screwed at first level with the majority of the spell. Even the non combat spells have ranges so ridiculous that is a curious thing that mages are so feared by the CS. Except from Impervious to energy there is no other spell that really give the mage any advantage at all.

The Tech Warrior would have a EBA (60+ MDC); a energy pistol with an average damage of 2D4 MD range around 600 feet or more and at least 10 shots per e-clip; a energy rifle with a average damage of 2D6 to 6D6 MD, range around 1600 feet or more and payload of 20 shots at least; 3 to 4 grenades of any kind.

-----------------------------------------------

I cant see how this thing is balanced because the tech warrior would have at least two to three free attacks against the mage before the mage even get into range to cast any of his offensive spells. The defensive spells can be cast before but again they will not last long and unless the mage cast Impervious to energy (cost 20 PPE and last 2 minutes at 1st level) and the tech warrior dont have any kind of non-energy weapon the mage is toast.

100% exactly .. right on ..


And this is something no one seems to understand .. or want to talk about because of thier love of the tech side of things .. Based on JUST the survival ratio of a average mage in this world in or anywhere in North America would want to play a mage of any sort ?

[Nightmaster]

Yes I would but in my case I like chalenges

[Library Ogre]

1st Level Ley Line Walker
Spell: Sub-Particle Acceleration - lvl 7 spell
Range: 100 feet (30 m) per level
Damage: 1D6x10 M.D.
PPE: 20
- A 1st level caster max range is 100 feet and that is way too small if you make the comparission against even a simple laser pistol which range normally is around 600 feet or more.

On the other hand, the simple laser pistol (which the LLW also has) does about 2D6 damage, and probably has a clip of about 20, at most. While it can be shot more times on a single charge, the LLW can recharge his by sitting around on his butt, without paying several thousand credits.

Spell: Invicible Armor - lvl 8 spell
Range: Self
PPE: 30
- A good protection but the fact that it protect only 25 MD and renegerate a pityful 1D6 per melee dont make much protection for a 1st level mage of any kind. EBAs normally have MD in the range of 60+. True they dont regenerate but for a 1st level that is really something.

Energy field is 4th level, 10 PPE, and has 60 MDC at 1st level. And at 3rd level, the LLW lucky enough to be swinging this spell has 75 MD, which is about as good as most heavy EBAs.

Spell: Energy Bolt - lvl 3 spell
Range: 150 feet (45.7 m)
PPE: 5
- Could have been a good spell and the range is not that bad for a level 3 spell but the fact that it have a fixed range and dont do MD damage makes it wortless.

Vast number of things are not MDC, and are worth more if not completely obliterated. It's not a "destroy the bad guys" spell, but it is a "catch dinner" spell.

Spell: Orb of Cold - lvl 3 spell
Range: 200 feet (61 m)
Damage: 3D6 MD plus numbness
PPE: 6
- Good spell but again it lack range if compared to pistol weapons and what is worst the range is fixed. The numbness is wortless since the target is probably in a EBA and thus protected from the special effect of the spell. Only usable in Juicers in my opinion and then only if the Juices is not wearing one of the EBAs presented in the Juicer Uprising book.

A large number of people do not have EBA, which is a fair bit more expensive than NEBA. Furthermore, though I don't have the spell in front of me, most creatures that are MD don't have EBA... dragons may be specifically excluded, but what about dinosaurs? Tattooed men? People who seldom wear EBA because they're tough, or because none is made for it. Also, this spell is wicked cheap.

Spell: Fire Bolt - lvl 4 spell
Range: 100 feet (30 m) plus 5 feet per level
Damage: 4D6 MD
PPE: 7
- The best spell so far but again range is a lost cause and the increasement per level is a joke. It would take a 15th level mage to have a range 275 (82.5 m) feet when casting that spell and even then the mage is best if using a pistol.

Of course, there's also the fact that the pistol is unlikely to do 8D6 at a ley line nexus.

Spell: Power Bolt - lvl 6 spell
Range: 1600 feet (487 m) + 100 feet (30 m) per level
Damage: 5D6 MD +2 MD per level of the caster
PPE: 20
- Finally a very good spell that put the mage in the same level of the tech warrior but the PPE cost makes the mage being able to use it only 5 times before his PPE goes zero or almost zero.

It does as much damage as a rifle, however, and increases well beyond standard range for most weapons.

I will stop from there. The mage character is really screwed at first level with the majority of the spell. Even the non combat spells have ranges so ridiculous that is a curious thing that mages are so feared by the CS. Except from Impervious to energy there is no other spell that really give the mage any advantage at all.

Chameleon. 2nd level spell, cheap and relatively long-lasting. If all you're doing is standing there casting spells (no effective movement), you're practically invisible. Which gives you a chance to cast Carpet of Adhesion, the most broken spell in the game, since it prevents everyone from moving for at least 30 seconds. Throw in a Befuddle and, while some may save, some will not, and you're going to have a confused mass of people. Even better if you throw in a Fear spell, and make them scared and confused. And all of those are available at 1st level.

The key to playing a wizard isn't massive damage. It's making the other team so useless that you can shoot them with ease.

The Tech Warrior would have a EBA (60+ MDC); a energy pistol with an average damage of 2D4 MD range around 600 feet or more and at least 10 shots per e-clip; a energy rifle with a average damage of 2D6 to 6D6 MD, range around 1600 feet or more and payload of 20 shots at least; 3 to 4 grenades of any kind.

And that is all he'll ever have, while, aside from EBA, the wizard can have most of these, too.

I cant see how this thing is balanced because the tech warrior would have at least two to three free attacks against the mage before the mage even get into range to cast any of his offensive spells. The defensive spells can be cast before but again they will not last long and unless the mage cast Impervious to energy (cost 20 PPE and last 2 minutes at 1st level) and the tech warrior dont have any kind of non-energy weapon the mage is toast.

It's not balanced if you try to stand them up and have them both blow the same-sized holes in things. This isn't D&D 4e, where everyone does the same damage. Both have very different competencies, and do very different things. This difference is that the mage can do what the tech warrior can do in most cases, with minimal training.

Heck, another fun point in favor of the wizard: How long does it take a tech warrior to put on armor? How long does it take a mage to put on his magic spell armor?

[dark brandon]

I know I'm posting in a troll thread...but I'm bored...so i'll bite.

So then "Magic" has been forced into a weaker state then tech, because KS does not want it any other way ?

No wonder no magic put into canon has a chance against a Tech Laden opponant.

The creator of the system, does not want it to stand a chance against Tech.
.....
But there is something very discomforting ... in the very fact that the games creator does not want the magic side to be equally as sound as its tech side ...

If magic users were completely denied the use of any/all tech equipment, I'd agree. But as it stands they are not. The problem is not the system...it's simply your vision of how 'magic' should be. Magic in your opinion...is weaker. In the creators opinion it isn't. I happen to agree with the creator.

Why does magic have such HUGE penalties for being inside of an Enviormentally sealed ( anything ) trying to cast its magic it IS magic, hello !!

Maybe if mages got...you know sick and died from using a laser rifle...I'd agree. You say "Huge" penalties...i say they are mediocre at best. You don't know the meaning of "huge penalties" until you've played D&D as a wizard in full plate armor.

[Lenwen]

On the other hand, the simple laser pistol (which the LLW also has) does about 2D6 damage, and probably has a clip of about 20, at most. While it can be shot more times on a single charge, the LLW can recharge his by sitting around on his butt, without paying several thousand credits.

And now your playing alotta Spell caster's not how thier written up to be played. Yes they will have those weapons but by and large the Mage shuns those types of weapons I believe this is in both Rue and Book of Magic, course I very well could be wrong.

Spell: Fire Bolt - lvl 4 spell
Range: 100 feet (30 m) plus 5 feet per level
Damage: 4D6 MD
PPE: 7
- The best spell so far but again range is a lost cause and the increasement per level is a joke. It would take a 15th level mage to have a range 275 (82.5 m) feet when casting that spell and even then the mage is best if using a pistol.

Of course, there's also the fact that the pistol is unlikely to do 8D6 at a ley line nexus.

If the pistol does 3d6x10md does not matter .. its the range that one finds hugly lacking in most offensive type spells to the point that its really not even debatable if you ask me.

Spell: Power Bolt - lvl 6 spell
Range: 1600 feet (487 m) + 100 feet (30 m) per level
Damage: 5D6 MD +2 MD per level of the caster
PPE: 20
- Finally a very good spell that put the mage in the same level of the tech warrior but the PPE cost makes the mage being able to use it only 5 times before his PPE goes zero or almost zero.

It does as much damage as a rifle, however, and increases well beyond standard range for most weapons.

This is one of the absolute best offensive spells in the game cost/dps/range (overall wise) And once a Mage is 4th lvl he can if he has this spell shoot at nearly the same distance as some rifles, but still has alot to make up for against other rifles as well.

Chameleon. 2nd level spell, cheap and relatively long-lasting. If all you're doing is standing there casting spells (no effective movement), you're practically invisible. Which gives you a chance to cast Carpet of Adhesion, the most broken spell in the game, since it prevents everyone from moving for at least 30 seconds. Throw in a Befuddle and, while some may save, some will not, and you're going to have a confused mass of people. Even better if you throw in a Fear spell, and make them scared and confused. And all of those are available at 1st level.

Thermal Optics see's the person who is Chameleoned up. Funny that , that particular optics is standard in most EBA's worth thier wieght.

The Tech Warrior would have a EBA (60+ MDC); a energy pistol with an average damage of 2D4 MD range around 600 feet or more and at least 10 shots per e-clip; a energy rifle with a average damage of 2D6 to 6D6 MD, range around 1600 feet or more and payload of 20 shots at least; 3 to 4 grenades of any kind.

And that is all he'll ever have, while, aside from EBA, the wizard can have most of these, too.

And the spell caster is said to not "Rely" upon them and shuns them in favor of thier own magic.

Heck, another fun point in favor of the wizard: How long does it take a tech warrior to put on armor? How long does it take a mage to put on his magic spell armor?

Why would a Tech warrior be outta his armor in the wilderness or on patrols ?

[Nightmaster]

Mark Hall, you is forgeting the main point: Range

Carpet of Adhesion have a range of 30 feet (9.1 m) at 1st level. That is close combat range for gods sake. This spell is better used as a trap and not in a firefight or regular combat (unless the enemy is charging the mage).

Befuddle have a maximum range of 100 feet (30.5 m) and it dont increase with level. Dont think the mage can pull that trick in a regular fight unless he assumes the risk of being shot 2 to 3 times before he is in range.

Fear have a maximum range of 100 feet (30.5 m) and affect a area of just 20 feet (6.1 m) diameter and it dont increase with level. The same comment for befuddle applies to this one.

Energy Field was forgot by me but the description of the spell is dubious and make me wonder if the protective field moves with the target of the spell that can be the caster, other person or even a object, or if it is static and thus is centered at the target just for reference.

Also you are placing the circunstances a bit wrong.

Near Ley Lines and Nexus the range and damage increase ok but that is giving the terrain advantage to the mage and the scenario were to be neutral to both oponents.

Pistols and EBA can be used by the mage yes but if we go "by the book" the mage would be in trouble if he uses a EBA. Also I dont know of any EBA made of natural materials in any of the books.

Also the idea was to pit the magic of the mage against the tech of the soldier in a 1 on 1 fight at optimal range. The problem is that the optimal range of a 1st level mage of any kind is almost close combat given the maximum ranges of the majority of spells in the books at 1st level. He is clearly in a disadvantage.

[dark brandon]

Pistols and EBA can be used by the mage yes but if we go "by the book" the mage would be in trouble if he uses a EBA.

What kind of trouble? Is his mommy gonna come out and spank him?

No.

Is he gonna explode?

no.

Can he still cast magic?

Yes, actually. In fact, closer inspection shows that unlike certain other settings...at worse he'll have his duration, range and damage reduced by 40%.

Are his opponents more skilled at using a rifle than he is?

Um...no...actually. They are roughly the same at the same level. So the chances to hit for a mage is the same as a soldier (unless the soldier has HTH assassin which, oddly enough a mage can get too)...

OMG...so...a mage equiped with the exact same things...can still cast a CoA, or better yet, cast Armor of Ithan (and at 40%) and have an invisible shield which means he's increased his armor...and his tech opponent can't do that?

Obviously, magic is inferior to tech.

Always.

[Nightmaster]

Pistols and EBA can be used by the mage yes but if we go "by the book" the mage would be in trouble if he uses a EBA.

What kind of trouble? Is his mommy gonna come out and spank him?

No.

Is he gonna explode?

no.

Can he still cast magic?

Yes, actually. In fact, closer inspection shows that unlike certain other settings...at worse he'll have his duration, range and damage reduced by 40%.

Are his opponents more skilled at using a rifle than he is?

Um...no...actually. They are roughly the same at the same level. So the chances to hit for a mage is the same as a soldier (unless the soldier has HTH assassin which, oddly enough a mage can get too)...

OMG...so...a mage equiped with the exact same things...can still cast a CoA, or better yet, cast Armor of Ithan (and at 40%) and have an invisible shield which means he's increased his armor...and his tech opponent can't do that?

Obviously, magic is inferior to tech.

Always.

Dont know about you but geting range, damage/effect and duration of any of the spells described above cut by 40% is no walk in the park to me. Even your example would be ridiculous because Armor of Ithan have a durantion of 1 minute per level and the effect would be reduced to 6 MD of protection for two melee rounds!!

You is forgeting the fact that by the book (and siembieda opinion) mages will always go for their magic as the main offensive/defensive capabilities and not the EBA they "normally" (siembieda words) dont use or the Rifles that again they normally dont use.

Also the scenario is no to decide who is better with a rifle or pistol. Its to pit Magic vs Tech in actual combat with both sides at 1st level.

[Lenwen]

Pistols and EBA can be used by the mage yes but if we go "by the book" the mage would be in trouble if he uses a EBA.

What kind of trouble? Is his mommy gonna come out and spank him?

No.

Is he gonna explode?

no.

Can he still cast magic?

Yes, actually. In fact, closer inspection shows that unlike certain other settings...at worse he'll have his duration, range and damage reduced by 40%.

Are his opponents more skilled at using a rifle than he is?

Um...no...actually. They are roughly the same at the same level. So the chances to hit for a mage is the same as a soldier (unless the soldier has HTH assassin which, oddly enough a mage can get too)...

OMG...so...a mage equiped with the exact same things...can still cast a CoA, or better yet, cast Armor of Ithan (and at 40%) and have an invisible shield which means he's increased his armor...and his tech opponent can't do that?

Obviously, magic is inferior to tech.

Always.

Dont know about you but geting range, damage/effect and duration of any of the spells described above cut by 40% is no walk in the park to me. Even your example would be ridiculous because Armor of Ithan have a durantion of 1 minute per level and the effect would be reduced to 6 MD of protection for two melee rounds!!

You is forgeting the fact that by the book (and siembieda opinion) mages will always go for their magic as the main offensive/defensive capabilities and not the EBA they "normally" (siembieda words) dont use or the Rifles that again they normally dont use.

Also the scenario is no to decide who is better with a rifle or pistol. Its to pit Magic vs Tech in actual combat with both sides at 1st level.

Your never going to get a straight answer to this. People who think magic is in fact weak have a solid debate about it due to several factors ..
1) - Cost of the spells.
2) - Range of spells.
3) - Availability of spells.

Most people equate large PPE pools as to being "Powerful" in an of themselves, with out regard as to the EXTREAMLY limited spells from which that PPE pool has to dip into for firepower.

There in lies one of the fundemental problems of the magic system. By the creator saying how hard it is to find anyone willling to share even the most basic of offensive spells he has simply hamstringed one of the very reasons to be a mage at all ..

Combined with the extreamly limited range for all but maby 2 or 3 spells in all lvls ( Common spells wise ) he further hamstrings the power of spells and widens the massive difference from Tech to magic based abilities in favor of the Tech side.

Combined with the way most "Spell casting" mages are supposed to "Shun" most tech items furthers that tech/magic gap even further..

So many things going against magic its really ashame I say personally and after I show most people the folly of choosing a mage they tend to stick to the tech laden PC's ..

Especially when thier new to rifts .. and they think they can pop off magic as fast as some one can pick up a rifle an shoot it at you .. ( in some cases yes in MOST cases no )

Or when they attempt to shoot some one at distance with a spell an the spell mearly fades away as it reaches its max "Range" ..

They usually get pretty ticked an stop play to roll up a tech playing character ..

[Nightmaster]

Your never going to get a straight answer to this. People who think magic is in fact weak have a solid debate about it due to several factors ..
1) - Cost of the spells.
2) - Range of spells.
3) - Availability of spells.

Most people equate large PPE pools as to being "Powerful" in an of themselves, with out regard as to the EXTREAMLY limited spells from which that PPE pool has to dip into for firepower.

There in lies one of the fundemental problems of the magic system. By the creator saying how hard it is to find anyone willling to share even the most basic of offensive spells he has simply hamstringed one of the very reasons to be a mage at all ..

Combined with the extreamly limited range for all but maby 2 or 3 spells in all lvls ( Common spells wise ) he further hamstrings the power of spells and widens the massive difference from Tech to magic based abilities in favor of the Tech side.

True.

The only way to magic to be effective is to use it to increase technology and that is the work of the TW.

The way magic is described and the way the rules function, mages are royal screwed.

[Ale Golem]

...if the CS armors were real..

And that's where your argument falls apart. They're not real, none of it is real and as such doesn't follow any realisitc interaction. How exactly would one argue how magic interacts with any physical barrier as magic, and here's the important part, does not exist. It's metaphysical, made up, fake, for poops and giggle or however else you would like to phrase it. As such the debate is now being held about ones personal concepts of what would need to be an acceptable enviornment for magic to function. Enviornmental armor cuts off the user from his/her enviornment and in so doing from the source of energy they need to feed their power.

[cornholioprime]

Enviornmental armor cuts off the user from his/her enviornment and in so doing from the source of energy they need to feed their power.

Erroneous.

The PPE is contained within the Mage, not drawn in from elsewhere apart from such 'obvious' external sources such as Ley Lines. Nor does a Mage need to be 'out in the open' in order to recharge himself.

[Lenwen]

...if the CS armors were real..

And that's where your argument falls apart. They're not real, none of it is real and as such doesn't follow any realisitc interaction. How exactly would one argue how magic interacts with any physical barrier as magic, and here's the important part, does not exist. It's metaphysical, made up, fake, for poops and giggle or however else you would like to phrase it. As such the debate is now being held about ones personal concepts of what would need to be an acceptable enviornment for magic to function. Enviornmental armor cuts off the user from his/her enviornment and in so doing from the source of energy they need to feed their power.

Great way to try to avoid the debate .

[Lenwen]

Enviornmental armor cuts off the user from his/her enviornment and in so doing from the source of energy they need to feed their power.

Erroneous.

The PPE is contained within the Mage, not drawn in from elsewhere apart from such 'obvious' external sources such as Ley Lines. Nor does a Mage need to be 'out in the open' in order to recharge himself.

He is just burdened with huge penalties for casting if he is covered with EBA, more so then any other class in the game.

[The Beast]

First if we talk about any kind of mage character that is not a Ley Line Walker then yes a mage casting a 10th level spell would have to be at 10th level or more but Ley Line mages and the kind like then dont need to be high level to cast any spell.

Actually the majority of mages can learn any level spell at any time, provided the mage has either someone to teach the spell, or the time and desire to research it on his own.

[Dustin Fireblade]

Enviornmental armor cuts off the user from his/her enviornment and in so doing from the source of energy they need to feed their power.

Erroneous.

The PPE is contained within the Mage, not drawn in from elsewhere apart from such 'obvious' external sources such as Ley Lines. Nor does a Mage need to be 'out in the open' in order to recharge himself.

Well....it does hamper the ability for the mage to channel their internal PPE - perhaps this is what Ale meant?

[Captain Shiva]

Examples?

~ Josh

Anything with "Enviormental" abilities, such as armors , vehicles, robots ... anything that basically has a different enviorment then that of the natural enviorment outside of what it is the PC is in .

Understand?

This is sorta hard to explain,

Battle Armors (Enviormentally sealed)
Vehicles ( enviormentally sealed )
Robots ( Enviormentally sealed )

No, I know what environmentally sealed means.

I mean what kinds of magic/spells are you thinking of? It helps if you narrow it down because a blanket response might not be appropriate.

~ Josh

Generally your right, "Blanket" statements should not be made. But this situation is 100% completly different. There is no spell that can effect the participant who is in fact in "Enviormentally" sealed anything (Armors, vehicles, Robots .. yadda yadda yadda )

So my question is at its base form..

Why does being "Enviormentally" sealed .. stop magic ?

Some spells can effect targets inside an armored vehicle,like Life Drain and Speed of the Snail, two very useful spells. Mental Blast will work through body armor, but nothing heavier. I would take spells on a case by case basis,with a few general guidelines,such as a spell having a physical effect, could not be cast at a target outside a vehicle without opening a hatch first.Communication and Divination type spells would be able to pentetrate just about any physical barrier, I think.

[dark brandon]

Dont know about you but geting range, damage/effect and duration of any of the spells described above cut by 40% is no walk in the park to me. Even your example would be ridiculous because Armor of Ithan have a durantion of 1 minute per level and the effect would be reduced to 6 MD of protection for two melee rounds!!

And that 6 more for 2 melee rounds per level of experience...AT WORST. I must caps that because, there is just as much chance (20) that it will not be affected at all as it will have the worst effect. In an armor of Ithan example...there's a 40% chance nothing will happen (you can't reduce range any more than touch) and if you're a stickler for the rules...there's a 60% chance AoI will be unaffected, because I believe it states "Damage is reduced by 1D4x10%"..and AoI does not do damage.

P.S. I also forgot it costs the mage 20% more PPE to cast...so for AoI instead of 10PPE...it's now 12.

At higher levels, a mage will find armor to be more of a hamper. 20% more PPE higher level spells will be deadly. But at that point, he can cast Invs. superior, magic door, teleport: superior, Giant, Invul., Invul. to energy...

You is forgeting the fact that by the book (and siembieda opinion) mages will always go for their magic as the main offensive/defensive capabilities and not the EBA they "normally" (siembieda words) dont use or the Rifles that again they normally dont use.

Also the scenario is no to decide who is better with a rifle or pistol. Its to pit Magic vs Tech in actual combat with both sides at 1st level.

I'm not forgetting anything. I wasn't bringing "upbrining" into this, because this isn't a mage vs warrior topic, and as such, magic can be used incredibly effective with technology even without TW. This aspect HAS to be taken into concideration to get full effect of just how powerful magic can be. As it stands a mage is just as good at shooting hiding and other things as tech

And I was wrong earlier...I don't agree with Kevin...magic is still far too powerful.