The Guided Missile Debate

[runebeo]

I would think most would be guided for sure. Its pre-rifts tech or later thats 90 years or more, missiles are going to have high technology than a RC plane or helicopter. My friend has a RC helicopter that detects movement and the display tell how high it is and it the signal is loss it slowly lands itself. I'm sure some high tech missiles with have incredible advancements in the near future at authenticating targets with images, heat, mass, speed, radar, sonar, infrared and things not even thought up yet.

[Killer Cyborg]

I know all this does not answer all the questions but I think it does help clear somethings up

I'm not sure it even poses the questions.

[Blight]

I always thought the ultra high-tec smart missiles of rifts used a combination of miro-optic target idenification, targeting computer and radar. I mean they change course and adjust speed to conserve fuel. They can dodge attacks aimed at them with a +4 to dodge and get 2 attacks per melee at a +5. Heck their radar have a 100 mile (160 km) range.
(As per page 42 under missile notes in the rifts main book)

[Lenwen]

I always thought the ultra high-tec smart missiles of rifts used a combination of miro-optic target idenification, targeting computer and radar. I mean they change course and adjust speed to conserve fuel. They can dodge attacks aimed at them with a +4 to dodge and get 2 attacks per melee at a +5. Heck their radar have a 100 mile (160 km) range.
(As per page 42 under missile notes in the rifts main book)

Those are not "Rifts Earth" made missles. No nation that is from rifts earth has that type of missle that I am yet aware of.
Several "None Rifts Earth" powerblocks however DO have those types among them Naruni, Atlantis, and several others iirc ..
Not even the CS has those types of missles that can take evasive manuvers, adjust speed to conserve fuel, and get 2 attacks per melee.

At least not canonly speaking they do not.

[Killer Cyborg]

I always thought the ultra high-tec smart missiles of rifts used a combination of miro-optic target idenification, targeting computer and radar. I mean they change course and adjust speed to conserve fuel. They can dodge attacks aimed at them with a +4 to dodge and get 2 attacks per melee at a +5. Heck their radar have a 100 mile (160 km) range.
(As per page 42 under missile notes in the rifts main book)

You're describing the "Smart" missiles/bombs.
They were only available for certain missiles.

Rifts, 46.
Medium Range: Plasma/Heat (heavy) or Multi-warhead
Long Range: Plasma/Heat (heavy), Nuclear (med), Nuclear (heavy), and Nuclear multi-warhead.

But that was back when all missiles (except mini-missiles) were self-guided.
As of RUE, most missiles are unguided except for "the largest and rarest Long Range Missiles."

[Lenwen]

How can you expect to fire any missile beyond 2000-3000 ft with any type of accuracy, it is lunacy to me.

Guess this might be why so many people elect to send 4+ missles down range since you can not dodge a missle attack with 4+ missles in it ..

Or was it 6+ missles ? Either or, that gives you one heck of an advantage ..

[Lenwen]

The whole 4+ missile thing can be a pain in the butt I have lost two PC to blazes of glory. But there are ways around it. Back when I played Robotech a lot my robots would lose there arms all time when I used them to parry missile volleys when I was out of my own missiles to shoot down the volley.

That is the key is to always have at least one missile held back to take down the dreaded 4 plus missiles coming your way, a 75% chance of taking out a volley is pretty good to me.

In my games when a robot uses thier arms to take out the 4+ missles, the robots body takes half damage of the overall cumulative damage rolled.

Even if the Robot successfully parried the missles with his arm due to the Blast radius of the missle barrage.

[Lenwen]

The whole 4+ missile thing can be a pain in the butt I have lost two PC to blazes of glory. But there are ways around it. Back when I played Robotech a lot my robots would lose there arms all time when I used them to parry missile volleys when I was out of my own missiles to shoot down the volley.

That is the key is to always have at least one missile held back to take down the dreaded 4 plus missiles coming your way, a 75% chance of taking out a volley is pretty good to me.

In my games when a robot uses thier arms to take out the 4+ missles, the robots body takes half damage of the overall cumulative damage rolled.

Even if the Robot successfully parried the missles with his arm due to the Blast radius of the missle barrage.

With me it would depend on the type of missile, if it was a AP missile the damage would be limited to the arms if it was a plasma or fragmentation the main body would take damage in my book.

But none the less it is better to take half damage to the main body than full damage.

Agreed, with me it does not matter what type of missle it is so long as the arms are not further out then the blast radius states.

know what I mean ?

[wildhood]

I think on Rifts Earth because there you no longer can use GPS Satillites in space to target enemy beyond 26 miles on the ground or a little farrer in the air. You have to see you enemy on radar or by line of site before you launch your weapon(s).

[Lenwen]

To a degree I will agree

Giving up ones arms is a big deal in most robots you will lose out on at least one weapon system if not two.

That is true.

But I play for more then just to let the PC's live each and every time. Accidents happen and when a PC chooses to use thier robot arms to parry 4+ missles, things can an do go wrong all the time, Dependent upon the blast radius of each missle most of the time the Main Body took half the damage those arm's took.

Did you use the rule that when your Robot took 50% or more damage in 1 melee round that some of thier systems would start to not work or short out an such or did you play it that everything worked perfectly till the last mdc point was gone then and only then everything went down ?

[Lenwen]

To a degree I will agree

Giving up ones arms is a big deal in most robots you will lose out on at least one weapon system if not two.

That is true.

But I play for more then just to let the PC's live each and every time. Accidents happen and when a PC chooses to use thier robot arms to parry 4+ missles, things can an do go wrong all the time, Dependent upon the blast radius of each missle most of the time the Main Body took half the damage those arm's took.

Did you use the rule that when your Robot took 50% or more damage in 1 melee round that some of thier systems would start to not work or short out an such or did you play it that everything worked perfectly till the last mdc point was gone then and only then everything went down ?

No I like the rule where systems starting going down after the robot takes over 50% damage it gives the operator something to do

Exactly, hehe you cant imagine how often I get the .. "Thats BS" "what you mean my sensors are starting to malfunction" line from players heh .

[glitterboy2098]

As of RUE, most missiles are unguided except for "the largest and rarest Long Range Missiles."

and 'or specified in their entry for the vehicle.'

which means if the writers remembered to specify a '+3' for their missiles, you can get it. otherwise, it means they're unguided rockets. make those CS super-jets somewhat less dangerous, actually. sure they have two dozen MRM's...but they're all unguided now...

How can you expect to fire any missile beyond 2000-3000 ft with any type of accuracy, it is lunacy to me.

Guess this might be why so many people elect to send 4+ missles down range since you can not dodge a missle attack with 4+ missles in it ..

Or was it 6+ missles ? Either or, that gives you one heck of an advantage ..

probaly not actually. the original description for the 'can't dodge 4 or more missiles in a volley' is that the missiles will be homing in, and dodging wouldn't allow you to get away from all them.... which means the fact most people in rifts are using unguided rocket versions really should result in such weapons not getting the '4+ in a volley is undodgeable' effect.

I think on Rifts Earth because there you no longer can use GPS Satillites in space to target enemy beyond 26 miles on the ground or a little farrer in the air. You have to see you enemy on radar or by line of site before you launch your weapon(s).

or if you have spotter who knows how to direct artillery style shots. then they can feed you the location data for the target and you can fire unguided "ballistic" shots with the missiles. inaccurate as hell, but the same principle as the old Katyusha's or the modern MLRS's. GPS in those cases just makes it easier for the spotter to call in accurate fire. but if the spotter and firer can triangulate off known referance points (like say, visible mountains), they should be able to at least attempt it.

[Lenwen]

How can you expect to fire any missile beyond 2000-3000 ft with any type of accuracy, it is lunacy to me.

Guess this might be why so many people elect to send 4+ missles down range since you can not dodge a missle attack with 4+ missles in it ..

Or was it 6+ missles ? Either or, that gives you one heck of an advantage ..

probaly not actually. the original description for the 'can't dodge 4 or more missiles in a volley' is that the missiles will be homing in, and dodging wouldn't allow you to get away from all them.... which means the fact most people in rifts are using unguided rocket versions really should result in such weapons not getting the '4+ in a volley is undodgeable' effect.

From that which I remember it had nuthing to do with them actually striking, but rather the entire blast radius of 4+ missles of course I very well could be wrong I shall have to reread that section then get back to you my friend.

[Lenwen]

Exactly, hehe you cant imagine how often I get the .. "Thats BS" "what you mean my sensors are starting to malfunction" line from players heh .

Pretty often since it's an optinal rule at the back of the book?

Indoubatably ..

[Jefffar]

Incidentally, for those wondering about guidance modes, IIRC (I am 400 kms from my book at the moment) some of the missiles in Rifts Japan are described as "heat seekers" gaining additional bonuses above and beyond the usual guided missile bonuses we saw before RUE.

[Mack]

Can somebody double check this because according to my calculations a short range missle moves at 953.3 fps max. That means its reaches its max range in a whoping 27 seconds, probably a little longer if you figure in acceleration (stupid bad inertia!)

Your math is correct.

As to the guided / unguided debate, I'm going to disagree with Killer Cyborg. (Oh noes! )

In a couple places, the text explicitly states that Mini-Missiles are unguided but doesn't expressly address the other sizes. Instead there are vague descriptions that discuss "Smart missiles" and guidance collectively. (Reference p363 after "Mini-Missiles", p364 after "Smart missiles", and p365 under "Mini-Missiles".) All three hammer home the point that mini-missiles are not guided, but fail to really talk to Short, Medium, and Long Range missiles.

However, this is contradicted by p364's text under "No Missile Bonus to Strike" which states that everything is unguided, unless: 1) The vehicle description says it's guided, 2) it's a multi-warhead missile, or 3) it's a Long Range missle.

For me, I like having Short, Medium, and Long-Range missiles be guided. It makes more sense to me that way, and I freely admit I'm biased. So with that in mind, combined with the bit of contradition, I simply ignore that last reference I mentioned.

[The Beast]

The whole 4+ missile thing can be a pain in the butt I have lost two PC to blazes of glory. But there are ways around it. Back when I played Robotech a lot my robots would lose there arms all time when I used them to parry missile volleys when I was out of my own missiles to shoot down the volley.

That is the key is to always have at least one missile held back to take down the dreaded 4 plus missiles coming your way, a 75% chance of taking out a volley is pretty good to me.

The dreaded RCB missile volleys ahh the memories

Isn't there a speed dodge from Robotech, HU, or TMNT that lets you dodge more than four missiles by out-running them?

[Killer Cyborg]

How can you expect to fire any missile beyond 2000-3000 ft with any type of accuracy, it is lunacy to me.

Guess this might be why so many people elect to send 4+ missles down range since you can not dodge a missle attack with 4+ missles in it ..

Or was it 6+ missles ? Either or, that gives you one heck of an advantage ..

It's four or more guided missiles.
Which isn't as common as it used to be.

[Killer Cyborg]

As to the guided / unguided debate, I'm going to disagree with Killer Cyborg. (Oh noes! )

In a couple places, the text explicitly states that Mini-Missiles are unguided but doesn't expressly address the other sizes. Instead there are vague descriptions that discuss "Smart missiles" and guidance collectively. (Reference p363 after "Mini-Missiles", p364 after "Smart missiles", and p365 under "Mini-Missiles".) All three hammer home the point that mini-missiles are not guided, but fail to really talk to Short, Medium, and Long Range missiles.

However, this is contradicted by p364's text under "No Missile Bonus to Strike" which states that everything is unguided, unless: 1) The vehicle description says it's guided, 2) it's a multi-warhead missile, or 3) it's a Long Range missle.

For me, I like having Short, Medium, and Long-Range missiles be guided. It makes more sense to me that way, and I freely admit I'm biased. So with that in mind, combined with the bit of contradition, I simply ignore that last reference I mentioned.

It's hard for you to argue with me by citing the same rules I am.

I don't think it's a great or realistic idea, but I have a hard time thinking that they wrote that passage (and the others) on accident.
And it's not a contradiction.
(Short, Medium, and Long Range are not addressed) does not conflict with (most types of missiles are unguided unless otherwise specified).
They kind of complement each other, in fact.

[Blight]

But that was back when all missiles (except mini-missiles) were self-guided.
As of RUE, most missiles are unguided except for "the largest and rarest Long Range Missiles."

Opps. I still pull all my stuff from the RiftTM. Main book I keep forgeting we are on Rifts 2.5 already

[runebeo]

I would simply ignore the new unguided missile rules from RUE. I treat most mini missiles as unguided rockets much like an AT4CS rocket launcher. Most other missiles(short, medium and long) are all guided IMO. Some are fire and forget, AKA "Smart" weapons.

I don't allow the 4+ rule to apply to anything that is not guided.

I agree! Unguided missiles are great against stationary targets, slow moving vehicles or very large aircrafts but useless against fast moving vehicles with high tech sensors.