Gizmoteers: the Techno-Wizard's distaff counterpart

[Nightmask]

Seems like Gizmoteers get no where near the love or attention that the Techno-Wizard's get. This in spite of the fact that unlike the TW they don't have any listed restrictions on how many psionic powers they can build into something and can at the proper levels build in features like Psi-Sword, Psi-Shield, and provide it with a Psionic Force Field just as renewable as the TW Armor of Ithan spell enhancement. With some means of boosting ISP they can even create a psi version of the TW TK-railgun and the Mystic Generator to power homes or vehicles.

For a group with more characters with psychic powers than magical powers these features are cheaper to go with than TW enhancements as well. Plus unlike TW weapons items with ISP-conversion of the E-clip see no change in range or damage at all. This class simply doesn't get anywhere near the exploration and use as the TW does.

It even has going for it the much wider range of mechanical and electrical skills available to it and as I noted in another thread it can have that and also be a back-up medical doctor and cyber-doc so if the party included one or more borgs the character would be superbly qualified for repairing and upgrading these sorts along with the vehicles, weapons, and other gear of the group.

[Grinning Demon]

Well the Gizmoteers are quite few in number and limited to a specific race (the Amaki) and region (South America). TW's aren't limited by either, though I agree Gizmoteers (along with pretty everything in SA:2) are pretty cool.

[Nightmask]

Well the Gizmoteers are quite few in number and limited to a specific race (the Amaki) and region (South America). TW's aren't limited by either, though I agree Gizmoteers (along with pretty everything in SA:2) are pretty cool.

I tend to think that while they're the race introduced with the orientation to be a Gizmoteer that it isn't exclusive to the Amaki, but either way they do not get the credit and use that they deserve whether you hold them as only being allowed to Amaki or if non-Amaki can also be Gizmoteers as well (much as the Oni Ninja can or are rumored to have non-Oni members from races that have sufficient psionic potential to train as one).

They really need a bigger exploration of their potential, bring them up alongside the Techno-Wizard instead of being left in their shadow. It's a highly neglected class that seems mostly to get focused on because of the temporarily ability to boost the damage of a weapon (and ignoring how they can improve range, ammo capacity, etc. and aren't limited to just damage). All the other features get skipped over when they've much longer lasting usefulness and give ISP-based characters like Dog Boys and Mind Melters much better choices than going with Techno-Wizard gear that burns double the ISP compared to the PPE cost for a spell-caster.

[Nightmask]

I tend to think that while they're the race introduced with the orientation to be a Gizmoteer that it isn't exclusive to the Amaki, but either way they do not get the credit and use that they deserve whether you hold them as only being allowed to Amaki or if non-Amaki can also be Gizmoteers as well (much as the Oni Ninja can or are rumored to have non-Oni members from races that have sufficient psionic potential to train as one).

They really need a bigger exploration of their potential, bring them up alongside the Techno-Wizard instead of being left in their shadow. It's a highly neglected class that seems mostly to get focused on because of the temporarily ability to boost the damage of a weapon (and ignoring how they can improve range, ammo capacity, etc. and aren't limited to just damage). All the other features get skipped over when they've much longer lasting usefulness and give ISP-based characters like Dog Boys and Mind Melters much better choices than going with Techno-Wizard gear that burns double the ISP compared to the PPE cost for a spell-caster.

Their North American cousins, the Psi-Techs, are similarly unloved.

Sadly true, even though they can give a 10% permanent increase to any stat of an item, from sensors to damage to range. While that's something that likely all technical sorts should be able to do with the appropriate skill checks it's an explicit feature of the Psi-Tech. Then again they also get saddled with a stereotype as if it's a birth defect requiring them to be socially inept, something that at least the Gizmoteer doesn't suffer from. There's also mention of Gizmoteers teamig up with Techno-Wizards to craft joint items of power. A duo like that, or a trio including a Psi-Tech, could turn a Chipwell power armor into a war machine able to outclass a Super-SAMAS.

[Grinning Demon]

Well the Gizmoteers are quite few in number and limited to a specific race (the Amaki) and region (South America). TW's aren't limited by either, though I agree Gizmoteers (along with pretty everything in SA:2) are pretty cool.

I tend to think that while they're the race introduced with the orientation to be a Gizmoteer that it isn't exclusive to the Amaki, but either way they do not get the credit and use that they deserve whether you hold them as only being allowed to Amaki or if non-Amaki can also be Gizmoteers as well (much as the Oni Ninja can or are rumored to have non-Oni members from races that have sufficient psionic potential to train as one).

They really need a bigger exploration of their potential, bring them up alongside the Techno-Wizard instead of being left in their shadow. It's a highly neglected class that seems mostly to get focused on because of the temporarily ability to boost the damage of a weapon (and ignoring how they can improve range, ammo capacity, etc. and aren't limited to just damage). All the other features get skipped over when they've much longer lasting usefulness and give ISP-based characters like Dog Boys and Mind Melters much better choices than going with Techno-Wizard gear that burns double the ISP compared to the PPE cost for a spell-caster.

Their North American cousins, the Psi-Techs, are similarly unloved.

Now Psi-Tech's are unloved because they just plain suck. A Mind Melter can do everything a Psi Tech can do just with access to better powers, better skills, and more ISP. Oh wait, the Psi-Tech gets unlimited Telemachanics

[Nightmask]

Well the Gizmoteers are quite few in number and limited to a specific race (the Amaki) and region (South America). TW's aren't limited by either, though I agree Gizmoteers (along with pretty everything in SA:2) are pretty cool.

I tend to think that while they're the race introduced with the orientation to be a Gizmoteer that it isn't exclusive to the Amaki, but either way they do not get the credit and use that they deserve whether you hold them as only being allowed to Amaki or if non-Amaki can also be Gizmoteers as well (much as the Oni Ninja can or are rumored to have non-Oni members from races that have sufficient psionic potential to train as one).

They really need a bigger exploration of their potential, bring them up alongside the Techno-Wizard instead of being left in their shadow. It's a highly neglected class that seems mostly to get focused on because of the temporarily ability to boost the damage of a weapon (and ignoring how they can improve range, ammo capacity, etc. and aren't limited to just damage). All the other features get skipped over when they've much longer lasting usefulness and give ISP-based characters like Dog Boys and Mind Melters much better choices than going with Techno-Wizard gear that burns double the ISP compared to the PPE cost for a spell-caster.

Their North American cousins, the Psi-Techs, are similarly unloved.

Now Psi-Tech's are unloved because they just plain suck. A Mind Melter can do everything a Psi Tech can do just with access to better powers, better skills, and more ISP. Oh wait, the Psi-Tech gets unlimited Telemachanics

The Mind Melter can't do everything a Psi-tech can, he certainly can't learn all the high-end skills the Psi-tech can and can't do the technical improvements to an object or get the extended durations on the machine-related powers the Psi-tech has. The Psi-Tech could though use more high-tech skills to better balance things for them though.

[Balabanto]

Yeah, but put a Psi-Tech in a PA. That will change your tone real quick. I've seen what this does. It's pretty scary. Oh, and when you blast the guy out of the PA, he's a master psionic. Thanks, missiles. That was a waste of time.

[Nightmask]

Yeah, but put a Psi-Tech in a PA. That will change your tone real quick. I've seen what this does. It's pretty scary. Oh, and when you blast the guy out of the PA, he's a master psionic. Thanks, missiles. That was a waste of time.

Psi-Tech in some Gizmoteer-augmented Power Armor would be extra happy, since he'd have some built-in psionic powers in the armor he could use and improvements like Psi-Sword and Psychic Force Field. Psi-tech improvement to the conventional systems, Gizmoteer introduction of psionics that can now be used in the PA without difficulty and further increase its capabilities.

[Killer Cyborg]

Well the Gizmoteers are quite few in number and limited to a specific race (the Amaki) and region (South America). TW's aren't limited by either, though I agree Gizmoteers (along with pretty everything in SA:2) are pretty cool.

I tend to think that while they're the race introduced with the orientation to be a Gizmoteer that it isn't exclusive to the Amaki, but either way they do not get the credit and use that they deserve whether you hold them as only being allowed to Amaki or if non-Amaki can also be Gizmoteers as well (much as the Oni Ninja can or are rumored to have non-Oni members from races that have sufficient psionic potential to train as one).

They really need a bigger exploration of their potential, bring them up alongside the Techno-Wizard instead of being left in their shadow. It's a highly neglected class that seems mostly to get focused on because of the temporarily ability to boost the damage of a weapon (and ignoring how they can improve range, ammo capacity, etc. and aren't limited to just damage). All the other features get skipped over when they've much longer lasting usefulness and give ISP-based characters like Dog Boys and Mind Melters much better choices than going with Techno-Wizard gear that burns double the ISP compared to the PPE cost for a spell-caster.

Their North American cousins, the Psi-Techs, are similarly unloved.

Now Psi-Tech's are unloved because they just plain suck. A Mind Melter can do everything a Psi Tech can do just with access to better powers, better skills, and more ISP. Oh wait, the Psi-Tech gets unlimited Telemachanics

My problem with the Psi-Techs is that there already WAS an OCC for psychic super-mechanics: The Operator.
The Psi-Tech just seems like a munchier version of an existing class.

[Nightmask]

I was just looking over the Gizmoteer and Psi-Tech and more than a bit surprised that the Psi-Tech has an extra die in the mix for determining ISP, which is really strange when the Gizmoteer is a lot more oriented towards needing and developing ISP. Seems like the Gizmoteer should have at least 3d4x10 rather than 2d4x10, if not 4d4x10. It's not like they have access to more than a few psionic powers that they can use freely, and are builders of Psi-Tech devices (really, shouldn't be calling them Techno-Wizard devices, they aren't, they're Psi-Tech devices) and their ISP should reflect that.

[Nether]

I have to agree that Psi-Tech has not gotten any love at all. The gizmoteer was a great start.

Psi-tech though needs to be different than say just TW. The Psi-Tek touches on that as well but they really need to offer a mechanics system that allows for Psi-tech.

To me it should closer to science and as they have been showing, it offers boosts to what the tech does already vs swapping it out for magic spells. Also adding psi powers seems to work ok as well as it fits that theme.

Just would have added a great element to the game and flavor all it's own to go with all the psychics of the world.

[Franfrickle]

I tend to think that while they're the race introduced with the orientation to be a Gizmoteer that it isn't exclusive to the Amaki, but either way they do not get the credit and use that they deserve whether you hold them as only being allowed to Amaki or if non-Amaki can also be Gizmoteers as well (much as the Oni Ninja can or are rumored to have non-Oni members from races that have sufficient psionic potential to train as one).

They really need a bigger exploration of their potential, bring them up alongside the Techno-Wizard instead of being left in their shadow. It's a highly neglected class that seems mostly to get focused on because of the temporarily ability to boost the damage of a weapon (and ignoring how they can improve range, ammo capacity, etc. and aren't limited to just damage). All the other features get skipped over when they've much longer lasting usefulness and give ISP-based characters like Dog Boys and Mind Melters much better choices than going with Techno-Wizard gear that burns double the ISP compared to the PPE cost for a spell-caster.

I agree whole heartedly that the Gizmoteers should be an open O.C.C. to any potential psionic player race. I haven't personally had a chance to play one, but I've been in a group where one was allowed as a True Atlantean and it kicked arse having items that we could use that didn't DBL tap our ISP. As pointed out above there is great potential for a huge market on Gizmo's especially in areas that outlaw magic or fear its use. It should be the Yang to TW's Yin, lol for lack of a better comparrison at the moment. The only downside I can see is that it wouldn't have as vast a range of abilities as TW, but considering that it would be easier to use and recharge and cheaper to make then TW items (I don't have my books in front of me and it's really late here, so this might be incorrect) for those without the benefit of a high PPE from class OCC/RCC's, I think its a fair trade and thats not counting the capacity to simply boost and improve upon the efficiency of Tech without adding "extra" abilities which I don't believe TW does, don't quote me on this screens getting blurry lol and it's getting light outside, so at this point not sure if I'm correct in my recollection I may have that last part mixed up with a Psi-Tech. Hmm yeah time for more attentive minds to do the posting for now.

[Nightmask]

I tend to think that while they're the race introduced with the orientation to be a Gizmoteer that it isn't exclusive to the Amaki, but either way they do not get the credit and use that they deserve whether you hold them as only being allowed to Amaki or if non-Amaki can also be Gizmoteers as well (much as the Oni Ninja can or are rumored to have non-Oni members from races that have sufficient psionic potential to train as one).

They really need a bigger exploration of their potential, bring them up alongside the Techno-Wizard instead of being left in their shadow. It's a highly neglected class that seems mostly to get focused on because of the temporarily ability to boost the damage of a weapon (and ignoring how they can improve range, ammo capacity, etc. and aren't limited to just damage). All the other features get skipped over when they've much longer lasting usefulness and give ISP-based characters like Dog Boys and Mind Melters much better choices than going with Techno-Wizard gear that burns double the ISP compared to the PPE cost for a spell-caster.

I agree whole heartedly that the Gizmoteers should be an open O.C.C. to any potential psionic player race. I haven't personally had a chance to play one, but I've been in a group where one was allowed as a True Atlantean and it kicked arse having items that we could use that didn't DBL tap our ISP. As pointed out above there is great potential for a huge market on Gizmo's especially in areas that outlaw magic or fear its use. It should be the Yang to TW's Yin, lol for lack of a better comparrison at the moment. The only downside I can see is that it wouldn't have as vast a range of abilities as TW, but considering that it would be easier to use and recharge and cheaper to make then TW items (I don't have my books in front of me and it's really late here, so this might be incorrect) for those without the benefit of a high PPE from class OCC/RCC's, I think its a fair trade and thats not counting the capacity to simply boost and improve upon the efficiency of Tech without adding "extra" abilities which I don't believe TW does, don't quote me on this screens getting blurry lol and it's getting light outside, so at this point not sure if I'm correct in my recollection I may have that last part mixed up with a Psi-Tech. Hmm yeah time for more attentive minds to do the posting for now.

Psi-Techs can provide a 10% permanent increase in various features (range, MDC, damage, etc), although you'd think any high-tech sort could do that but maybe the Psi-Tech can just do it without cost unlike the rest. Gizmoteers can provide a variable temporary boost by somehow psionically charging the item but this charge runs a risk of burning out the object permanent depending on how much you overcharge it.

Psi-Techs have a range of psionic powers available to them that they can use at will, the Gizmoteer only has a few he can use without building a gadget to provide it. The Techno-Wizard can make use of any spell that he knows at half-effectiveness without a gadget or full use if built into a gadget.

Gizmoteers when converting items to run on ISP don't see any changes in the useful range of damage of the item at all, Techno-Wizard conversion of weapons sees them having a change in range and damage (unless they've changed that with the new Rifts Book). The only problem with the Gizmoteer conversion is the amount of ISP required is based on the number of shots a weapon has so oddly the ATL-7 Laser Rifle which does 3d6x10+20 damage at the expense of draining an entire e-clip means you can refit one as a Gizmoteer and for a single point of ISP or 2 PPE have massive damage capacity. It should be a more blanket amount to charge the clip based on size (short, long, pistol, rifle, cannister, etc).

Really need to expand on the Gizmoteer and the idea of Psi-tech as the complement of Techno-Wizardry, providing its own unique spin to things (a Crazy would love some extra psi-powers to go with those they already get from basic Crazy augmentation for example). Some monster races actually get limited bionics simply because their PPE doesn't do them much good but could still use it to power Psi-Tech or Techno-Wizard devices.

[drewkitty ~..~]

The (psi) Gizmoteer from SA2 is a RCC because it depends on a racial ability.
Even if it was not a RCC it would be a PCC. So it turning into a OCC is a moot point.
-----------------
@Killer Cyborg
The Psi-Tech PCC was in the BTS1 book, around before there was Rifts.
So if anything the TW class is the magic variant of the Psi-Tech, with the Operator class just being a very good mechanic class, that sometimes has psi-powers.
(Hasn't really looked too much through the Mechinoids trilogy book so does not rightly remember if there was a Operator class in it.)

[Nightmask]

The (psi) Gizmoteer from SA2 is a RCC because it depends on a racial ability.
Even if it was not a RCC it would be a PCC. So it turning into a OCC is a moot point.

Except since the PCC has been eliminated all such classes are de-facto OCC, you may not like it and try to handwave it away but it's canon.

As far as Gizmoteers go, given they have abilities similar to human available classes for creating gizmos with psionic powers that they can provide to others able to use them there's no reason to believe that Gizmoteers are in fact exclusive to the Amaki, they're simply the race that seems to produce them most reliably due to some genetic predisposition.

[Nether]

Psi-Techs can provide a 10% permanent increase in various features (range, MDC, damage, etc), although you'd think any high-tech sort could do that but maybe the Psi-Tech can just do it without cost unlike the rest.

i believe the psi-tech psychicly charges the tech. So they would be able to say use skill x to boost the performance a bit and then psychic charge it.

Wish they had some rules for using skills to tweak / enhance machinery to higher performance levels.

[Nightmask]

Psi-Techs can provide a 10% permanent increase in various features (range, MDC, damage, etc), although you'd think any high-tech sort could do that but maybe the Psi-Tech can just do it without cost unlike the rest.

i believe the psi-tech psychicly charges the tech. So they would be able to say use skill x to boost the performance a bit and then psychic charge it.

Wish they had some rules for using skills to tweak / enhance machinery to higher performance levels.

Afraid there's nothing to suggest that a Psi-Tech psychically charges anything, he makes permanent tweaks to whatever feature he looks to improve upon. It's the Gizmoteer who psychically charges things hence why they're temporary and can burn things out from the over-performance.

It would be nice to have some kind of design rules for augmenting existing items, everything seems to act pretty much like there's no means of improving anything over the default levels that they come in which isn't much in keeping with what we can see RL. People are always finding ways to tweak things to be a bit better with what they've got available. No reason someone shouldn't be able to do the same with Rifts tech.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Even if the newer rifts books have no PCC's in them, the older books still do. So until such books are revised those PCC's are PCC's
-----------
P-T's are much like TW's in that they can only use their powers through their 'devices', only after they have made their devices. And that they power their devices from their ISP.

[Nightmask]

Even if the newer rifts books have no PCC's in them, the older books still do. So until such books are revised those PCC's are PCC's

If the class designation no longer exists then it's retroactive to all books and supercedes all previously published material in that fashion. For someone so obsessed with canon one would think you'd realize that, except that it eliminates a classification you wish to retain making it merely your house rule not the canon that those classes remain PCC instead of all now being OCC.

-----------

P-T's are much like TW's in that they can only use their powers through their 'devices', only after they have made their devices. And that they power their devices from their ISP.

That's not the case, you're talking about the Gizmoteer, the Psi-tech has complete access to all psionic powers he develops as he goes up in level he does not require a device to make use of them. Also unless it was changed in the Rifts: Unlimited Edition Techno-wizards are capable of casting any spell that they know like a LLW, but the spell suffers penalties to its effectiveness. Gizmoteers on the other hand outside a handful of psionic powers they have at start cannot make use of any other psionics that they develop as they go up in level save through the construction of a psi-tech device.

I realize it does generate confusion having an OCC like the Psi-Tech around when there also exists psionic technology that can be short-hand referenced as psi-tech but the Psi-Tech despite the name is incapable of creating devices with psionic powers that belongs to the Gizmoteer class and other classes like the Psi-Mechanic.

[Nether]

Psi-Techs can provide a 10% permanent increase in various features (range, MDC, damage, etc), although you'd think any high-tech sort could do that but maybe the Psi-Tech can just do it without cost unlike the rest.

i believe the psi-tech psychicly charges the tech. So they would be able to say use skill x to boost the performance a bit and then psychic charge it.

Wish they had some rules for using skills to tweak / enhance machinery to higher performance levels.

Afraid there's nothing to suggest that a Psi-Tech psychically charges anything, he makes permanent tweaks to whatever feature he looks to improve upon. It's the Gizmoteer who psychically charges things hence why they're temporary and can burn things out from the over-performance.

It would be nice to have some kind of design rules for augmenting existing items, everything seems to act pretty much like there's no means of improving anything over the default levels that they come in which isn't much in keeping with what we can see RL. People are always finding ways to tweak things to be a bit better with what they've got available. No reason someone shouldn't be able to do the same with Rifts tech.

Ah ya, i re-read it and nothing suggests they do. Good catch.

[Nether]

Even if the newer rifts books have no PCC's in them, the older books still do. So until such books are revised those PCC's are PCC's

If the class designation no longer exists then it's retroactive to all books and supercedes all previously published material in that fashion. For someone so obsessed with canon one would think you'd realize that, except that it eliminates a classification you wish to retain making it merely your house rule not the canon that those classes remain PCC instead of all now being OCC.

The problem with that is it invalidates alot of characters in that change.
I am all for updating the rule system but in this case it is taking a big enough step that says they should have just put out Rifts 2.0 which has been greatly needed for a long time.

As well 2.0 could also give us a updated look at Psinetics and the gadgeteer/psi-tech as well to compete with TW. I can also seeing the CS using psitech where as TW is bad news to them.

[Franfrickle]

Psi-Techs can provide a 10% permanent increase in various features (range, MDC, damage, etc), although you'd think any high-tech sort could do that but maybe the Psi-Tech can just do it without cost unlike the rest. Gizmoteers can provide a variable temporary boost by somehow psionically charging the item but this charge runs a risk of burning out the object permanent depending on how much you overcharge it.

Psi-Techs have a range of psionic powers available to them that they can use at will, the Gizmoteer only has a few he can use without building a gadget to provide it. The Techno-Wizard can make use of any spell that he knows at half-effectiveness without a gadget or full use if built into a gadget.

Gizmoteers when converting items to run on ISP don't see any changes in the useful range of damage of the item at all, Techno-Wizard conversion of weapons sees them having a change in range and damage (unless they've changed that with the new Rifts Book). The only problem with the Gizmoteer conversion is the amount of ISP required is based on the number of shots a weapon has so oddly the ATL-7 Laser Rifle which does 3d6x10+20 damage at the expense of draining an entire e-clip means you can refit one as a Gizmoteer and for a single point of ISP or 2 PPE have massive damage capacity. It should be a more blanket amount to charge the clip based on size (short, long, pistol, rifle, cannister, etc).

Really need to expand on the Gizmoteer and the idea of Psi-tech as the complement of Techno-Wizardry, providing its own unique spin to things (a Crazy would love some extra psi-powers to go with those they already get from basic Crazy augmentation for example). Some monster races actually get limited bionics simply because their PPE doesn't do them much good but could still use it to power Psi-Tech or Techno-Wizard devices.

Thanks for clearing that up, I figured my recollection was getting mixed up. I had thought that the Gizmoteer's could permantly soup-up tech like a Psi-tech could without it being psionically powered, but I think that was just how one GM I had modified it as a house rule seeing how I've re-read the material. That's what I had meant by being able to boost tech without adding any "extra" abilities, it was part of what I had mixed between the Psi-Tech and Gizmoteers.

And yes, they really should come out with something either a Rifter or other published material that expands upon psi/gizmo-creation rules and guidelines as they did in RUE for TW's. That is ridiculous powering a weapon with ISP by point/shoot thats another thing they should revamp and base it more on points/volume capacity of the power source there by making it more useable similar to how the Mystic Knights can, but with ISP instead of PPE. It does make for one of those stupid silly things to use against GM's that use no sense of game balance and pit PC's against things way out-of-their league just to be $#!%heads.

*I got 73 ISP left and a gun that has a range of 50-200 M.D. per shot. Come on you stupid!@#$ let's see what ya got to throw at us this day. Oh and lets pray I don't roll a 20.*

[drewkitty ~..~]

Even if the newer rifts books have no PCC's in them, the older books still do. So until such books are revised those PCC's are PCC's

If the class designation no longer exists then it's retroactive to all books and supersedes all previously published material in that fashion. For someone so obsessed with canon one would think you'd realize that, except that it eliminates a classification you wish to retain making it merely your house rule not the canon that those classes remain PCC instead of all now being OCC.

Calling a rose a pear does not make the rose a pear.
Till they revise all the books with PCC's in them there will still be PCC's in rifts books. This is my view point.
And yes, You have made your viewpoint Abundantly Clear NM.

Besides the discussion was about way a a class restricted to a race is a RCC, and not an OCC.
It is because an RCC is a class to a single race and link to that race's way of life.

We white folk may have given the Am. Indians jobs, but we Crushed their way of life.

[Nightmask]

Even if the newer rifts books have no PCC's in them, the older books still do. So until such books are revised those PCC's are PCC's

If the class designation no longer exists then it's retroactive to all books and supersedes all previously published material in that fashion. For someone so obsessed with canon one would think you'd realize that, except that it eliminates a classification you wish to retain making it merely your house rule not the canon that those classes remain PCC instead of all now being OCC.

Calling a rose a pear does not make the rose a pear.
Till they revise all the books with PCC's in them there will still be PCC's in rifts books. This is my view point.
And yes, You have made your viewpoint Abundantly Clear NM.

Too bad your analogy fails since it doesn't have any bearing on an RPG company deciding to eliminate a classification and fold it under another classification instead. They also are under no obligation to rewrite every existing book to satisfy you and your insistence that unless they rewrite every book they've ever published that they never really eliminated the classification. You aren't that special and they aren't going to do that for anyone, the quite rightly figure that when they say 'we eliminated this and it's not this instead' that reasonable readers have the capacity to handle that.

And yes you've been quite clear about your own insistence that everything has to be written to suit you rather than you having to bend to accept what's actually been written.

Besides the discussion was about way a a class restricted to a race is a RCC, and not an OCC.
It is because an RCC is a class to a single race and link to that race's way of life.

We white folk may have given the Am. Indians jobs, but we Crushed their way of life.

Wow, that's really offensive, especially when it has absolutely nothing at all to do with this thread and such poor grammar involved as well.

Whether it's an RCC or an OCC (and there's nothing that makes it impossible that Gizmoteers can't be an OCC, even in canon) this is still a discussion about the Gizmoteer and giving it the same level of consideration and exploitation as we see with Techno-Wizards. It's an under-appreciated class and should be given its just due, and since you've nothing to contribute of a salient nature how about politely leaving the thread to the people who would actually like to discuss it rather than you once again jumping in to contribute nothing beyond 'that's not canon!' and how we shouldn't even be discussing it because you don't believe in discussing anything that's not suited to your skewed view on things.

[Franfrickle]

Calling a rose a pear does not make the rose a pear.
Till they revise all the books with PCC's in them there will still be PCC's in rifts books. This is my view point.
And yes, You have made your viewpoint Abundantly Clear NM.

Besides the discussion was about way a a class restricted to a race is a RCC, and not an OCC.
It is because an RCC is a class to a single race and link to that race's way of life.

We white folk may have given the Am. Indians jobs, but we Crushed their way of life.

Since you like refering to prior books I wanted to give you something to munch on.
Rifts WB 12: Psyscape has a few things I would like to point out

pg48 says: The following Psychic Character Classes (P.C.C.s) or R.C.C.S (racial in the sense that one must possess psionics) are all available to humans. D-bee races who do not possess psychic abilities (and many do not) cannot select a psychic R.C.C.

and as for the 11 R.C.C.'s listed only the Mind Bleeder R.C.C., the Psi-Ghost, and the Psi-Slayer are strictly limited to one Race or Genetic Mutation of one race as it "specifically states it is", and it goes on to say this

Players may bring in other types of psychic and mutant characters from any of Palladium Books... next: Just clear all special psionic powers, Astral stuff, and equipment with the Game Master and allow the G.M. to make modifications as he or she deems necessary... Such "unusual" characters are likely to be considered D-bees, genetic mutations or aliens, and will be a rarity, not the norm

In WB 9: SA2 under the Gizmoteers R.C.C. it doesn't specifically say it restricts the R.C.C. to the Amaki only as the 3 pointed out above due, so taking what's quoted above the Gizmoteer R.C.C. very well could be applied to other races if GM allowed with the authorization coming straight from K.S.

And I fail to see yer correlation to the topic and whats being discussed by making this offensive statement

We white folk may have given the Am. Indians jobs, but we Crushed their way of life

It's a racial statement that steroetypes and makes accusations of ALL people considered of Caucasian classification. I hate to be one to complain, but you took things a little to far by feeling the need to express yer personal view with this. This is just a suggestion, but perhaps it's best if you leave this forum topic to those more interested in contributing before you really offend someone.

Thank you, come again.

[drewkitty ~..~]

And I fail to see yer correlation to the topic and what's being discussed by making this offensive statement

We white folk may have given the Am. Indians jobs, but we Crushed their way of life

It's a racial statement that stereotypes and makes accusations of ALL people considered of Caucasian classification. I hate to be one to complain, but you took things a little to far by feeling the need to express yer personal view with this. This is just a suggestion, but perhaps it's best if you leave this forum topic to those more interested in contributing before you really offend someone.

Thank you, come again.

1) I was stating a fact/truth. Stating a Truth/fact is often offensive because it brings up things people rather not have to face, because it often reveals where in their own lives they are found lacking.
And it you look at the facts, it was not till the 'white folk' came did the native americans way of life was forcibly changed by said white folk. Yes, We as a nation, bear responsibility for what happened. Even if we, as individuals, do not bear that responsibility personal responsibility for it except that we, USA citizens, live in USA. Much like what our responsibility to black folk is, except what happened to the native americans is not as prominent in what is taught and talked about.
1.1) Yes, it is a racial statement in that the very subject matter involves what happened between tow races/cultures/ethnic groups when they met/encountered/fought.

2) If anyone bothered to look up how the Native americans lived before that coming of the white man they would understand more what their way of life was. Which would fit the definition of RCC, in the part that if you were a part of that 'race' you ended up with the same basic skills set.
[side-note: movie example that shows a nat.am. tribe's way of life: Dances with Wolves.]

[Giant2005]

It is because an RCC is a class to a single race and link to that race's way of life.

Psyscape has set up an entire school which has the sole purpose of teaching the Gizmoteer class to people. I doubt enough Amaki are in Psyscape to warrant such a degree of resources being put towards that end if the Amaki were the only ones capable of performing those skills.

[Nightmask]

And I fail to see yer correlation to the topic and what's being discussed by making this offensive statement

We white folk may have given the Am. Indians jobs, but we Crushed their way of life

It's a racial statement that stereotypes and makes accusations of ALL people considered of Caucasian classification. I hate to be one to complain, but you took things a little to far by feeling the need to express yer personal view with this. This is just a suggestion, but perhaps it's best if you leave this forum topic to those more interested in contributing before you really offend someone.

Thank you, come again.

1) I was stating a fact/truth. Stating a Truth/fact is often offensive because it brings up things people rather not have to face, because it often reveals where in their own lives they are found lacking.
And it you look at the facts, it was not till the 'white folk' came did the native americans way of life was forcibly changed by said white folk. Yes, We as a nation, bear responsibility for what happened. Even if we, as individuals, do not bear that responsibility personal responsibility for it except that we, USA citizens, live in USA. Much like what our responsibility to black folk is, except what happened to the native americans is not as prominent in what is taught and talked about.
1.1) Yes, it is a racial statement in that the very subject matter involves what happened between tow races/cultures/ethnic groups when they met/encountered/fought.

This thread has nothing to do with encounters between different races or ethnic groups, it's about a character class in the Rifts RPG setting to discuss it and how to make better use of it due to its having generally gone under the radar because it unlike its counterpart the Techno-Wizard doesn't get new gadgets and coverage in nearly every book that comes out.

You've also stated your opinion, not a fact, one that implies that it was a good thing we 'gave' those jobs to American Indians rather than effectively forcing them into it by giving them no valid options. It's also a lot more a complex issue than you make it out to be.

2) If anyone bothered to look up how the Native americans lived before that coming of the white man they would understand more what their way of life was. Which would fit the definition of RCC, in the part that if you were a part of that 'race' you ended up with the same basic skills set.
[side-note: movie example that shows a nat.am. tribe's way of life: Dances with Wolves.]

You seem to be treating RCC as if it's genetically locked into a particular race, which is only true in a few cases, otherwise what it actually is is a race-specific OCC that if you were raised in that society like one of them you'd have the same skill set available to you. The way of life of a particular race isn't genetic, not without specific powers/abilities that would lock one into a particular path. The Russian RCC isn't the same as the American RCC, but raised in Russia you'll come up with the Russian RCC even if you were born in America.

Also as has been pointed out the Gizmoteer class isn't restricted to the Amaki, there is evidence of it elsewhere and doesn't have anything that says it can only, without exception, be learned by Amaki.

In any case you aren't contributing anything salient to this topic, no possible Psionic technologies or other uses of the Gizmoteer and if you've no intention of actually posting on the actual topic I politely request you simply leave this thread alone and post on threads where you intend to actually post on the topics at hand.

[Franfrickle]

And I fail to see yer correlation to the topic and what's being discussed by making this offensive statement

We white folk may have given the Am. Indians jobs, but we Crushed their way of life

It's a racial statement that stereotypes and makes accusations of ALL people considered of Caucasian classification. I hate to be one to complain, but you took things a little to far by feeling the need to express yer personal view with this. This is just a suggestion, but perhaps it's best if you leave this forum topic to those more interested in contributing before you really offend someone.

Thank you, come again.

1) I was stating a fact/truth. Stating a Truth/fact is often offensive because it brings up things people rather not have to face, because it often reveals where in their own lives they are found lacking.
And it you look at the facts, it was not till the 'white folk' came did the native americans way of life was forcibly changed by said white folk. Yes, We as a nation, bear responsibility for what happened. Even if we, as individuals, do not bear that responsibility personal responsibility for it except that we, USA citizens, live in USA. Much like what our responsibility to black folk is, except what happened to the native americans is not as prominent in what is taught and talked about.
1.1) Yes, it is a racial statement in that the very subject matter involves what happened between tow races/cultures/ethnic groups when they met/encountered/fought.

See here is a fine example of ignorance and the in-ability to move past prior prejudices. Stating a fact would be to referance the actual "FACTS" not an opinionative statement that gives implications of it applying to all people of caucasion persuasion within the U.S. Since you like to be so nit-picky about details, whether yer right or wrong, let me point out that you continue to make it offensive by assigning not just one, but two seperate classifications of the people and show your personal opinion of such. There are no "white folk" or "black folk" and to classify them as such is pure ignorant, there is just "People/Folk/Homo Sapiens." If you have to insist to classify groups of people do so correctly by their cultural titles/nationalities "NOT BY THE COLOR OF THEIR SKIN".

What happened before is regrettable, but "We" as a people, inorder to move ahead and evolve socially as well intellectually, need to let go of such asinine notions that we hold any responsibility of burden to such prior events that transpired before our time and a time when "Our" country wasn't what it is today, as well as letting go the segregation of groups of people simply because they look different. Until we as individuals and a unified people do, there is always going to be such prejudice, ignorance and racial conflicts within a nation that hinders us from applying the only true responsibility to be seen from such things and that's to ensure that it doesn't happen again and to help others from making the same mistakes. Yer either part of the Bandwagon or yer an annoying hinderance that waste time needing to be dealt with.

So please before you decide you waste anymore space within this forum eliciting the need for correction, take any further arguments thru PM or drop the moot subject entirely and move on.

Thank ye for yer time.

[Nether]

Ok, Fran and NM take it to PM's already. Your discussion of how he said something has nothing to do with this thread and your killing it.

In many ways i think the Psi-tech and gizmo should have been merged in psyscape. They both essentially serve the same function with one better at actually creating Psi tech, but it isn't the Psi-Tech strangely. The other is the only true psi item creator and should have gottem more love in psyscape to bring psinetics to the forefront.

[Nightmask]

Ok, Fran and NM take it to PM's already. Your discussion of how he said something has nothing to do with this thread and your killing it.

I believe I already said it should be dropped because it wasn't related to the topic at hand.

In many ways i think the Psi-tech and gizmo should have been merged in psyscape. They both essentially serve the same function with one better at actually creating Psi tech, but it isn't the Psi-Tech strangely. The other is the only true psi item creator and should have gottem more love in psyscape to bring psinetics to the forefront.

Yes I noted it's confusing that the Gizmoteer is the one who creates psionic technology rather than the Psi-Tech, but we have to go with what the classes are called by Palladium to discuss them to avoid even worse confusion.

There is a definite need to expand on the technology, and more coverage of The Angel of Death from Mindwerks and her technology. I imagine she'd just love the chance to deal with some Gizmoteers and their ability to create items with psionic powers instilled into them. Psionics just tend to not get the kind of depth that magic does which is a shame.

I'd like to see some suggestions from people about unique psionic items a Gizmoteer could create, areas where they excel and show why sometimes you want a Gizmoteer doing the job rather than a Techno-Wizard. Do some revamping of things and general retooling to fix some of the deficiencies they have relative to Techno-Wizards (like being stuck to just their own ISP whereas the Techno-Wizard has access to a wide range of massive PPE boosts well beyond their own reserves and even an ability to temporarily super-charge their PPE that the Gizmoteer does not have).

[Franfrickle]

Agreed and dropped,

Ok here is an item that I had in mind, Its similar to non-classified pieces of tech that worked together employed by special operation units called the Land Warrior Program. Here's the thing, I welcome all comments and suggestions and I encourage you that if you feel it wouldn't work let the rest of us know, but I ask that you give a full accounting on why and if you believe there is a better means to make it work then share it. I also have never had the chance to play a TW, Gizmoteer or a Psi-tech personally so all things I'm posting are being shot from the hip.

Take a Full Environment Helmet with HUD and sensory equipment. Now what I figure is needed psionically Primary: Telepathy(4) for multi-way communication, Secondary for chain: Group Trance(15) 1) so everyone connected via the helms share from Telepathy so its not restricted to only two-way communication and are also able to experience what the other is experiencing (one person see's danger/enemy/whatever they all do) & 2) so there is a pooling of the ISP to be tapped into allowing those without enough ISP to activate the helms and additional features, Third for chain: Mind Bond(10) for 2 reasons 1) it keeps Group Trance from being limited to just the leader & 2) to increases the duration of activated powers to 3d4 hours. (I placed Mind Bond within the chain instead of as primary because I feel this way it doesn't put the user at risk of suffering from anothers insanity and keeps the focus to shared communications and experiences, not skills and memories. But I could be wrong) Fourth for Chain Presence Sense(4) to give advance warning of beings within the 120 range and other benefits it gives. Additional psionics, but activated seperately as needed with duration based on the Gizmoteers level: Nightvision(4), See Invisible(4), Sixth Sense(2)
To create it will take 430 ISP {(4+15+10+4+4+4+2)x10=430} but I'm not sure how much to activate it, will it be 43 ISP or will it be like TW items (construction cost/20) if thats the case then its a more manageable 22 ISP rounded up.

Ok so tell me what you think and if yer not clear on what its supposed to do let me know. Thanks

[Nightmask]

Agreed and dropped,

Ok here is an item that I had in mind, Its similar to non-classified pieces of tech that worked together employed by special operation units called the Land Warrior Program. Here's the thing, I welcome all comments and suggestions and I encourage you that if you feel it wouldn't work let the rest of us know, but I ask that you give a full accounting on why and if you believe there is a better means to make it work then share it. I also have never had the chance to play a TW, Gizmoteer or a Psi-tech personally so all things I'm posting are being shot from the hip.

Take a Full Environment Helmet with HUD and sensory equipment. Now what I figure is needed psionically Primary: Telepathy(4) for multi-way communication, Secondary for chain: Group Trance(15) 1) so everyone connected via the helms share from Telepathy so its not restricted to only two-way communication and are also able to experience what the other is experiencing (one person see's danger/enemy/whatever they all do) & 2) so there is a pooling of the ISP to be tapped into allowing those without enough ISP to activate the helms and additional features, Third for chain: Mind Bond(10) for 2 reasons 1) it keeps Group Trance from being limited to just the leader & 2) to increases the duration of activated powers to 3d4 hours. (I placed Mind Bond within the chain instead of as primary because I feel this way it doesn't put the user at risk of suffering from anothers insanity and keeps the focus to shared communications and experiences, not skills and memories. But I could be wrong) Fourth for Chain Presence Sense(4) to give advance warning of beings within the 120 range and other benefits it gives. Additional psionics, but activated seperately as needed with duration based on the Gizmoteers level: Nightvision(4), See Invisible(4), Sixth Sense(2)
To create it will take 430 ISP {(4+15+10+4+4+4+2)x10=430} but I'm not sure how much to activate it, will it be 43 ISP or will it be like TW items (construction cost/20) if thats the case then its a more manageable 22 ISP rounded up.

Ok so tell me what you think and if yer not clear on what its supposed to do let me know. Thanks

I gather the idea of chains is something for the revamped Techno-Wizard, so not familiar with that but looks like a rather nice idea. Would make for quite an effective group with that range of psi-powers available, especially one large enough that it has NPC security who could make use of it as a standard equipment feature.

[Franfrickle]

Ok toying with an idea for Gizmoteering&Psi-teching some PA or small robot, bad thing is I'm not too familiar with them. Here's roughly what I'm looking for in one and I'd appreciate all input either thru PM or via here. Weapons aren't all that important at the moment and kinda leaning to it being stripped of all firepower, it should be cheaper that way. Probably keep any vibro-weapons attached and start from scratch for the rest. Flight is a plus, but not a must and don't want anything sleek/slim kinda leaning more towards something with some meat atleast 9ft tall but not greater then 16. Mid range on MDC and PS or higher but not a must. For the most part I'm looking for something that's going to look good and tough for a character to tromp up in. Good as in 67 Impala good, "not" good as in a Saleen S7. Thanks in advance for any that reply.

PS: Also possibly anything that could be effectively salvaged in numbers. Sadly thats not likely for the Avenger except for the "rare" 1, maybe. Oh how I wish the world was more fair

[Nether]

Agreed and dropped,

Ok here is an item that I had in mind, Its similar to non-classified pieces of tech that worked together employed by special operation units called the Land Warrior Program. Here's the thing, I welcome all comments and suggestions and I encourage you that if you feel it wouldn't work let the rest of us know, but I ask that you give a full accounting on why and if you believe there is a better means to make it work then share it. I also have never had the chance to play a TW, Gizmoteer or a Psi-tech personally so all things I'm posting are being shot from the hip.

Take a Full Environment Helmet with HUD and sensory equipment. Now what I figure is needed psionically Primary: Telepathy(4) for multi-way communication, Secondary for chain: Group Trance(15) 1) so everyone connected via the helms share from Telepathy so its not restricted to only two-way communication and are also able to experience what the other is experiencing (one person see's danger/enemy/whatever they all do) & 2) so there is a pooling of the ISP to be tapped into allowing those without enough ISP to activate the helms and additional features, Third for chain: Mind Bond(10) for 2 reasons 1) it keeps Group Trance from being limited to just the leader & 2) to increases the duration of activated powers to 3d4 hours. (I placed Mind Bond within the chain instead of as primary because I feel this way it doesn't put the user at risk of suffering from anothers insanity and keeps the focus to shared communications and experiences, not skills and memories. But I could be wrong) Fourth for Chain Presence Sense(4) to give advance warning of beings within the 120 range and other benefits it gives. Additional psionics, but activated seperately as needed with duration based on the Gizmoteers level: Nightvision(4), See Invisible(4), Sixth Sense(2)
To create it will take 430 ISP {(4+15+10+4+4+4+2)x10=430} but I'm not sure how much to activate it, will it be 43 ISP or will it be like TW items (construction cost/20) if thats the case then its a more manageable 22 ISP rounded up.

Ok so tell me what you think and if yer not clear on what its supposed to do let me know. Thanks

I had given simular things thought before as well but have not gotten around to doing it.
The psi-helmet is a fantastic idea and i find it really lets the psi tech shine in flavor. Overall the helmet isn't that hard to create but for what it can do for a group is huge, and this last part is prolly why i have "not gotten around to it" yet. It pretty much makes a group non surprisable, no issues with communication (if anything superior communication as telepathy tells what you mean and not any loss to trying to word it right or misinterpretation, not to include even faster), the shared ISP is really good, and you could even get into sharing skills with say mimic skill / steal skill. Presence sense, ext. Such helmets could make a massive impact on group combat. Imagine Psi Battalion with such devices and how much more effective they would be.

Just wanted to say it looked good.

As for the power armor, i have been looking for some examples to use in the books but only ones i've found is in the phase world book for the one PA. Some gear in there as well but sadly not enough.

[Nightmask]

I had given simular things thought before as well but have not gotten around to doing it.
The psi-helmet is a fantastic idea and i find it really lets the psi tech shine in flavor. Overall the helmet isn't that hard to create but for what it can do for a group is huge, and this last part is prolly why i have "not gotten around to it" yet. It pretty much makes a group non surprisable, no issues with communication (if anything superior communication as telepathy tells what you mean and not any loss to trying to word it right or misinterpretation, not to include even faster), the shared ISP is really good, and you could even get into sharing skills with say mimic skill / steal skill. Presence sense, ext. Such helmets could make a massive impact on group combat. Imagine Psi Battalion with such devices and how much more effective they would be.

Just wanted to say it looked good.

As for the power armor, i have been looking for some examples to use in the books but only ones i've found is in the phase world book for the one PA. Some gear in there as well but sadly not enough.

Yes, TW Power Armor all over the place only one suit of what could be considered Psi-Tech armor presented in the entire game setting. Lots of room for Psionic Power armor, psi-weapons (one of the alien races in Aliens Unlimited actually has spaceship level weapons that are just psi-amplifiers so someone with a suitable psionic power for the weapon can act as its power source to do ship-level range and damage), and psionic medical gear even.

[drewkitty ~..~]

snip... There are no "white folk" or "black folk" and to classify them as such is pure ignorant, there is just "People/Folk/Homo Sapiens." If you have to insist to classify groups of people do so correctly by their cultural titles/nationalities "NOT BY THE COLOR OF THEIR SKIN".

What happened before is regrettable, but "We" as a people, in order to move ahead and evolve socially as well intellectually,
..snip

white folk/black folk.... I was just using the language of near the time it happened. Which does divide the races ethinicly about which side of the divide of who were slaves and who were not.
No it is ignorance, I would lay the blame to their continued use to how lazy people are. Which reflects on aspect of how are brains work.
------------------------
Evolve just means to change.
Develop means to move towards a goal or to move to be better.
---------------------------

Psyscape has set up an entire school which has the sole purpose of teaching the Gizmoteer class to people. ...snip

page?

[Nightmask]

Psyscape has set up an entire school which has the sole purpose of teaching the Gizmoteer class to people. ...snip

page?

Page 31 references the Faculty of Psychic Technology where psychics are taught how to build, repair, and design psychic devices, a technology similar to techno-wizardry but based on psionics rather than magic. Since Gizmoteers are the ones who create psychic devices they're teaching how to become Gizmoteers.

[Nether]

Psyscape has set up an entire school which has the sole purpose of teaching the Gizmoteer class to people. ...snip

page?

Page 31 references the Faculty of Psychic Technology where psychics are taught how to build, repair, and design psychic devices, a technology similar to techno-wizardry but based on psionics rather than magic. Since Gizmoteers are the ones who create psychic devices they're teaching how to become Gizmoteers.

A undeveloped if not discrepency in the system regarding Psionic device creation; you have the gizmo who can create psi devices simular to a TW, and then they can also just create tech that boosts it like the psi sword weapons that only boost the damage of them but does not actually offer the ability.

Then you have MOM implants in Mindwerks and NA that were both created by non psychics, also meaning they are not a creation class like TW or Gizmo. Sidenote, why the F is Angel of Death a conversion borg and not a psychic of any sort??
It just goes against her concept in my mind to do it that way, and for someone that loves psionics soooo much that she is very passionate about making devices after it, you would think she would be a psychic instead of a borg. Just my thoughts on that.

I have always seen psi tech closer to technology as in offering improvement upon device than say TW which just replaces the technological ability with magic spells. Psi tech that allow psionics powers as well tends to only work if the person is a psychic as well. This isn't the precedence in all forms of it but i noticed it is a common aspect.

So do you have to be a gizmo or psi-tech to create psionic devices / tech?
I would say no for what i know atm.

[Shark_Force]

the angel of death is a cyborg because she is hundreds of years old and has replaced her body with cyborg parts so that she doesn't die of old age.

and she's not really fixated on psionics. she's fixated on the human brain, and how it can be manipulated. in some cases (indeed, many of the successful cases), that involves psionics. but it also includes making people stronger, faster, more agile, more perceptive, and stuff like preventing brain tissue degeneration. psionics is just one of the many things she seeks to achieve by modifying the human brain.

[Nightmask]

the angel of death is a cyborg because she is hundreds of years old and has replaced her body with cyborg parts so that she doesn't die of old age.

and she's not really fixated on psionics. she's fixated on the human brain, and how it can be manipulated. in some cases (indeed, many of the successful cases), that involves psionics. but it also includes making people stronger, faster, more agile, more perceptive, and stuff like preventing brain tissue degeneration. psionics is just one of the many things she seeks to achieve by modifying the human brain.

She's also a cyborg because she was nearly killed and total conversion was the only way for her to survive and what helped push her completely and irrevocably over the edge into madness and evil enough to impress even a demon if not intimidate one.

[Nether]

Roger.

But what do you guys think of non psychics creating psionic tech outside of the mom implants?
Or even non creation classes creating psionic tech?

I am thinking if non psychics can create mom implants than they should be able to create other psi tech as well.
Just wanted to hear your guys thoughts to that.

[Shark_Force]

Roger.

But what do you guys think of non psychics creating psionic tech outside of the mom implants?
Or even non creation classes creating psionic tech?

I am thinking if non psychics can create mom implants than they should be able to create other psi tech as well.
Just wanted to hear your guys thoughts to that.

why? MOM implants work because they mess around with your brain. in the absence of some other naturally psionic thing to manipulate, i don't really see how they'd pull it off.

[Franfrickle]

It's supposed to be dropped or taken to PM's. Thanks for your co-operation.

Onto things way more important. Thank you Nether, I am glad for your input. I wasn't sure if I had the basic principles of how things might function in gizmo's given this is my first creation. I'm also thinking of incorporating Group Mind Block so outside psychics can't pick up on it, not sure if that will work like planed though.

Besides whole Psi-Battalions, which is just *shudders*. Reminds me sorta of the Borg's from Star Trek. It would also be extremely effective for small recon groups who relay so much on radio silence and stealth and the ability to anticipate what their fellow team members are doing to effectively infiltrate and take out a much larger threat.

I am currently working on something that will effectively blow the helmet out of the water. A Multi-function Universal Remote... DUN! DUN! DUUNNNN! Here's my sales pitch: You think seeing one Glitter Girl power armor in action is sexy just wait till you see a Legion of Glitter Girls completely insync and all aiming their Sleek, Sexy Assault Canon's at the same target and firing at the same time with the same number of attacks... Lol yeah once I got the hang of it this gizmo stuff has Astronomical potential and believe it or not what inspired this idea was the pose on pg 88 of WB 22: FQ and how it reminded me of the early 1900's stage dancers. The whole thing about the PA or small robot I'm looking for is something that resembles more the classic muscle car type, tough and has the look of being able to handle its own. It's to be used as a blank for a design idea by a gizmoteer, don't know what race, and an off the cuckoo dwarven psi-tech. Honestly they should just merge the two into one class, kinda disapointed they didn't tell more about the Faculty of Psychic Technology.

I hope I'm not the only one posting items on here too. I look forward to seeing what others create.

[FluidicAztec]

I've always thought Psyscape needed a remake. Get rid of the Buster, Mindmelter and psi-powers (there already in the RUE). Expand on the Psistalker taking other RCC variations, add more info about the city and government, add the Gizomoteer (or the Psyscape equivalent) and give us a city map. Oh, and lots of psi toys!

[Nightmask]

I've always thought Psyscape needed a remake. Get rid of the Buster, Mindmelter and psi-powers (there already in the RUE). Expand on the Psistalker taking other RCC variations, add more info about the city and government, add the Gizomoteer (or the Psyscape equivalent) and give us a city map. Oh, and lots of psi toys!

Got my vote for a revised or Psyscape 2 book. Way past due to see psionics get the kind of step up in gadgets and get to shine in its own right. Try and come up with a few more unique psionic classes, some more psi-powers, and load us up on psionic power armor, psi-tech robots and weapons, and other things unique to them. Gizmoteers can make something that enhances Psi-Swords after all why not weapons that if you've the right psi-power will give you a boost to range and damage using it like a weapon? Plus the weapons only work for someone with that psi-power since he's channeling it into the weapon so that non-psychic gets nothing out of taking your weapon from you and trying to use it against you.

[Franfrickle]

I've always thought Psyscape needed a remake. Get rid of the Buster, Mindmelter and psi-powers (there already in the RUE). Expand on the Psistalker taking other RCC variations, add more info about the city and government, add the Gizomoteer (or the Psyscape equivalent) and give us a city map. Oh, and lots of psi toys!

Got my vote for a revised or Psyscape 2 book. Way past due to see psionics get the kind of step up in gadgets and get to shine in its own right. Try and come up with a few more unique psionic classes, some more psi-powers, and load us up on psionic power armor, psi-tech robots and weapons, and other things unique to them. Gizmoteers can make something that enhances Psi-Swords after all why not weapons that if you've the right psi-power will give you a boost to range and damage using it like a weapon? Plus the weapons only work for someone with that psi-power since he's channeling it into the weapon so that non-psychic gets nothing out of taking your weapon from you and trying to use it against you.

I agree on the need for more psi-powers. I always liked the writer Julian May's take on them. There should be some super-psi's that enable a psychic to convert raw ores and scraps into more usable materials like how the spell create steel works but thru a unique combination of say telekinesis (super) and pyrokinesis or a Super Psionic ability to make ice/snow or a wall of ice thru a combination of telekinesis and hydrokinesis (idea of how it'd work is hydro collects the water and then telekinesis is used to rapidly slow molecular movement causing it to convert into its next state of matter ice) Yeah I could go on and on, but these are ideas I'm toying with for my Gizmo creations so don't want to reveal too much.

But from what I read in Gizmoteer creation paragraph it says that anyone that can use a TW device can use a Gizmo, they just have to be able to channel either ISP or PPE to keep it operational. I didn't see anything about others needing to have the same psionic ability inorder to use them. If that was the case then they would kinda suck by being very extremely limited and wouldn't have the market/distribution potential that TW items do.

[Nether]

Roger.

But what do you guys think of non psychics creating psionic tech outside of the mom implants?
Or even non creation classes creating psionic tech?

I am thinking if non psychics can create mom implants than they should be able to create other psi tech as well.
Just wanted to hear your guys thoughts to that.

why? MOM implants work because they mess around with your brain. in the absence of some other naturally psionic thing to manipulate, i don't really see how they'd pull it off.

I don't know if you read all of my posts or not but the one your responded to then 2 up from that shows the correlation between mom implants and psi-tech created by the gizmo functioning in very simular fasion.

MOM implants are psionic devices by themselves regardless of being implanted, and sure they enhance what a psionic has but they are still psionic in nature, function very simular to like gizmo psi-swords item ext which comes from a gizmo.

In psyscape they also have the psinectic arms, which is more than just a MOM implant as well, and it would be created by a non psychic, let alone a non psi creation class.

So far it looks to me that it is very plausible that non psionic classes can create psionic devices. A psychic would have better understanding to create, but still wouldn't need to be say a gizmo or psi-tech. Normally i would have been fore you had to be one of those psi classes to do so but after review it really sounds like you don't.

I asked as i'm looking for some thoughtout responses that might show my line of thinking wrong, but yours doesn't do it.

[Shark_Force]

I don't know if you read all of my posts or not but the one your responded to then 2 up from that shows the correlation between mom implants and psi-tech created by the gizmo functioning in very simular fasion.

MOM implants are psionic devices by themselves regardless of being implanted, and sure they enhance what a psionic has but they are still psionic in nature, function very simular to like gizmo psi-swords item ext which comes from a gizmo.

In psyscape they also have the psinectic arms, which is more than just a MOM implant as well, and it would be created by a non psychic, let alone a non psi creation class.

So far it looks to me that it is very plausible that non psionic classes can create psionic devices. A psychic would have better understanding to create, but still wouldn't need to be say a gizmo or psi-tech. Normally i would have been fore you had to be one of those psi classes to do so but after review it really sounds like you don't.

I asked as i'm looking for some thoughtout responses that might show my line of thinking wrong, but yours doesn't do it.

so... you need proof, as in written proof in the books, that the non-psionic lady who is a full conversion 'borg and would therefore not even have psionics anymore if she ever did have them (barring weirdness like that one other NPC who has such) cannot use psionics to create psionic devices?

eh. i'm done. trying to explain why psynetic/MOM devices are not themselves psionic, but rather simply manipulate creature's brains into being psionic, is a waste of my time. go do your own research.

[Nether]

I don't know if you read all of my posts or not but the one your responded to then 2 up from that shows the correlation between mom implants and psi-tech created by the gizmo functioning in very simular fasion.

MOM implants are psionic devices by themselves regardless of being implanted, and sure they enhance what a psionic has but they are still psionic in nature, function very simular to like gizmo psi-swords item ext which comes from a gizmo.

In psyscape they also have the psinectic arms, which is more than just a MOM implant as well, and it would be created by a non psychic, let alone a non psi creation class.

So far it looks to me that it is very plausible that non psionic classes can create psionic devices. A psychic would have better understanding to create, but still wouldn't need to be say a gizmo or psi-tech. Normally i would have been fore you had to be one of those psi classes to do so but after review it really sounds like you don't.

I asked as i'm looking for some thoughtout responses that might show my line of thinking wrong, but yours doesn't do it.

so... you need proof, as in written proof in the books, that the non-psionic lady who is a full conversion 'borg and would therefore not even have psionics anymore if she ever did have them (barring weirdness like that one other NPC who has such) cannot use psionics to create psionic devices?

eh. i'm done. trying to explain why psynetic/MOM devices are not themselves psionic, but rather simply manipulate creature's brains into being psionic, is a waste of my time. go do your own research.

I've done my research and i have posted it unlike yours. You just make a statement to how they are just cybernetics that mess with your mind but yet you don't even offer a source. What are your sources for your opinion.

And yes having the basics to how the creators want this aspect to function in the game world would be nice to have clearified. Is there something wrong for wanting it to be listed in the books?

And no it isn't just the one chic that does it, it is also the psyscape guy from CS as well.

If they were just cybernetics that help your mind focus psionic power, then it would be listed a it counts towards amount of cybernetics you can have before partial conversion ext.

Feel free not to post if you really don't want to discuss and explain why with your sources. For that point why hang out on the forums if not to discuss?