RCC + OCC = ?

[Nightmask]

Bursters, Mind Melters are PCC because they are Psychic Character Classes. They are not RCC's as they were mislabeled in the RMB. They are not OCC's are they are stylistically mislabeled in RUE.

Would you give that 'stylistic' nonsense a rest, as well as insisting things are mislabeled because you don't like the change? You're just trying to argue something that's not by the book as being by the book.

Wonder of wonders, You have to Train to be PCC's. Yes, the requirements is to be able to reach master level for the PCC. But that is decided when you chose what class your char will be. The difference is the difference between being just an OCC and being a PCC is that with a PCC your psi powers are the basis of the self. OCCs are just skills.(yes I'm simplifying it a bit on the OCC side)

Wonder of wonders a Techno-Wizard's spells and training are the basis of his self, funny how you insist magic users are special and their devotion to a particular magic discipline which in some cases means limited spell access is somehow different than training to access psychic powers instead of magical powers. It's not which is why Palladium dropped the PCC designation.

What point to you people not get when KS said that they are not calling RCCs and PCCs correctly for Stylistic reasons. Therefore, they are intentional mislabeling classes, which could be said to be lying. Therefor RUE is not non-canon, megaversally, in the aspect of its labeling of the classes in it. Even if it canon in Rifts. This is because while they might internally be ok, it is how much of a mess they are when trying to use megavercial rules that are not in a ƒ¨ç˚´∂ up setting in the aspect of it's class labels.

Again give it a rest, the fact you disagree with Palladium's choices doesn't make it a mistake nor does the change mean that they're mislabeling things because you, a fan, disagree. It's ridiculous to insist that R: UE is non-canon, a book put out by Palladium to replace the original book. You can't get more canon than that, and for someone who again insists everyone has to post letter perfect by the books you're quick to dismiss the books when you don't like what they say and insist you've the canon answer to things. If you're not going to discuss things by the canon of the books and admit you're tossing out your own house rules in places doesn't seem much point to be posting if you're just trying to pass off your house rules as canon.

[Shark_Force]

if the creator of the game changes a rule (ie issues errata), it is not the creator of the game that is using the rules wrong when they use the new rules, it is the people who refuse to use the new rules.

certainly, it isn't without justification (and as i pointed out, i'm not truly convinced that there ever really needed to be any sort of distinction at all between OCCs, RCCs, and PCCs in the first place - if you just called them all classes and restricted some to certain races, restricted the tiny handful of races that can't take OCCs from taking anything other than their racial OCC, and completely ignored the PCC distinction altogether, you'd have essentially the exact same set of rules).

and certainly, it's something you can do for your own games. nothing wrong with that. heck, honestly, you're essentially playing with the same rules, just calling them different things.

but therein lies the problem; these forums are a place where we discuss things, most commonly the rules and/or setting of palladium books products (in the case of these sub-forums, specifically rifts stuff). now while it's not a problem at all if i decide that in my game i want to call the coalition states the federation of man in my games, and i want to call the federation of magic the casting society... it's going to leave people really confused for the purposes of discussion, *especially* if i abbreviate and start talking about how an FoM dog pack is getting supported by an FoM SAMAS patrol in their efforts to track down and destroy an evil shifter from the CS, or something like that.

absolutely ok for my own games. but also absolutely a bad idea if i want to have a discussion about rifts with people who are not playing in my campaign.

for the latest version of the rules, we have specific definitions for specific words. in order to keep everyone on the same page, *especially* the new people who are most likely to be confused, the most logical thing to do is to use the most recent version of the rules, and the definitions contained in them. it is fine to discuss what the rules used to be (especially to clarify why certain things don't work the way you'd think they should under the new rules), but for the sake of clarity and having a discussion (ie the purpose of these forums), you should use the most up-to-date rules, because that's the only logical default. someone new to the game doesn't have the option of buying a first printing RMB most likely, instead they'll probably pick up the RUE.

[Hot Rod]

Been away for awhile & re-read this topic since its still active. (Sorta anyways)

Has Palladium ever come up with a way (within the rules) to create an adult Great horned dragon with his dual classed Summoner/Shifter/Diabolist/Etc... (as per their description in Dragons & gods 2nd ed. P29)? (Handwavium exempted)

HR

[Shark_Force]

well, we have a dragon hatchling RCC which is intended to reflect a dragon in the early years of their life. the fact that it doesn't really show us the later years of their life does not mean that there isn't any change.

as i've said, the dragon RCC gets the ability to learn two types of magic... eventually. just like the lizard mage and some others can learn 2 OCCs worth of abilities (i think the sphinx does, and definitely full god and some AIs)

[Hot Rod]

Thanks, I was mostly curious if they (PB) had ever stated how it happened. They have combined the hatchling XP table and the Adult XP table into one, same with the H-H table. It seems required that you dual class at some point to get the Adult dragon (as found & D&G or most any NPC Adult Dragon).

It must be deliberate on PB's part to ignore the inconsistency for so many years.

HR

[Dr. Doom III]

Thanks, I was mostly curious if they (PB) had ever stated how it happened. They have combined the hatchling XP table and the Adult XP table into one, same with the H-H table. It seems required that you dual class at some point to get the Adult dragon (as found & D&G or most any NPC Adult Dragon).

It must be deliberate on PB's part to ignore the inconsistency for so many years.

HR

I don't think PB thinks too many players are going to play a hatchling dragon for a thousand years of game time to become an adult dragon.
Oh and adult dragons don't ever change character class. They remain Dragon RCCs. They just acquire the magical skills/spells of other classes.

[Hot Rod]

Why would it take a thousand years? It would take exactly as long as any other character with an equivalent XP table to reach 10th level (D&G Pg10, The transformation to adult begins at 9th to 12th level) And PCs always level faster than NPCs as a given.

D&G pg 17 average level for adult dragons is 9-15 !

Hmm, D&G states that 'it is not surprising even a young dragon will have mastered one or more of the mystic arts at 6-12th level proficiency, often higher!' ... See Adventures on the High Seas, 2nd ed. ... for rules.

I guess that answers my question though. (only had 1e AotHS before, I'll have to find 2e, or order it)

So that would evidence (for dragons at least) they are able to take up a magic OCC (as a dual class) despite being an RCC.

HR

[Shark_Force]

Why would it take a thousand years? It would take exactly as long as any other character with an equivalent XP table to reach 10th level (D&G Pg10, The transformation to adult begins at 9th to 12th level) And PCs always level faster than NPCs as a given.

D&G pg 17 average level for adult dragons is 9-15 !

Hmm, D&G states that 'it is not surprising even a young dragon will have mastered one or more of the mystic arts at 6-12th level proficiency, often higher!' ... See Adventures on the High Seas, 2nd ed. ... for rules.

I guess that answers my question though. (only had 1e AotHS before, I'll have to find 2e, or order it)

So that would evidence (for dragons at least) they are able to take up a magic OCC (as a dual class) despite being an RCC.

HR

well, not as such. rather, they are capable of learning a second form of magic without actually switching class at all.

i personally would require that they spend at least a while in down time (probably a year or more - they understand the basics, but they still have to learn all the other specific stuff) and find a willing teacher. of course, this is likely to interfere with adventuring, to say the least

[Nightmask]

Why would it take a thousand years? It would take exactly as long as any other character with an equivalent XP table to reach 10th level (D&G Pg10, The transformation to adult begins at 9th to 12th level) And PCs always level faster than NPCs as a given.

D&G pg 17 average level for adult dragons is 9-15 !

Hmm, D&G states that 'it is not surprising even a young dragon will have mastered one or more of the mystic arts at 6-12th level proficiency, often higher!' ... See Adventures on the High Seas, 2nd ed. ... for rules.

I guess that answers my question though. (only had 1e AotHS before, I'll have to find 2e, or order it)

So that would evidence (for dragons at least) they are able to take up a magic OCC (as a dual class) despite being an RCC.

HR

well, not as such. rather, they are capable of learning a second form of magic without actually switching class at all.

i personally would require that they spend at least a while in down time (probably a year or more - they understand the basics, but they still have to learn all the other specific stuff) and find a willing teacher. of course, this is likely to interfere with adventuring, to say the least

Unless he was learning from a party mage, good odds that they'd have one or two given their usefulness in a setting like Rifts.

[Dr. Doom III]

Why would it take a thousand years? It would take exactly as long as any other character with an equivalent XP table to reach 10th level (D&G Pg10, The transformation to adult begins at 9th to 12th level) And PCs always level faster than NPCs as a given.

D&G pg 17 average level for adult dragons is 9-15 !

Hmm, D&G states that 'it is not surprising even a young dragon will have mastered one or more of the mystic arts at 6-12th level proficiency, often higher!' ... See Adventures on the High Seas, 2nd ed. ... for rules.

I guess that answers my question though. (only had 1e AotHS before, I'll have to find 2e, or order it)

So that would evidence (for dragons at least) they are able to take up a magic OCC (as a dual class) despite being an RCC.

HR

You become an adut anything by aging.
Do I really have to explain that?

[Nightmask]

Why would it take a thousand years? It would take exactly as long as any other character with an equivalent XP table to reach 10th level (D&G Pg10, The transformation to adult begins at 9th to 12th level) And PCs always level faster than NPCs as a given.

D&G pg 17 average level for adult dragons is 9-15 !

Hmm, D&G states that 'it is not surprising even a young dragon will have mastered one or more of the mystic arts at 6-12th level proficiency, often higher!' ... See Adventures on the High Seas, 2nd ed. ... for rules.

I guess that answers my question though. (only had 1e AotHS before, I'll have to find 2e, or order it)

So that would evidence (for dragons at least) they are able to take up a magic OCC (as a dual class) despite being an RCC.

HR

You become an adut anything by aging.
Do I really have to explain that?

Unless you're a demon-dragonmage, you have to kill an adult dragon and bond with its head to become an adult.

[Kagashi]

Rifts Second Edition really needs to define "Race" and "Character Class", that way people will stop confusing RCCs for Races. And I do not blame those who are confused, Palladium made it murky to understand.

What makes sense to me is, Race = what you are born with which can include racial abilities. Character class, be it racial (can only be picked by a certain race), occupational, or psionic, is the set of skills and character class abilities known by the character.

[Kagashi]

Why would it take a thousand years? It would take exactly as long as any other character with an equivalent XP table to reach 10th level (D&G Pg10, The transformation to adult begins at 9th to 12th level) And PCs always level faster than NPCs as a given.

D&G pg 17 average level for adult dragons is 9-15 !

Hmm, D&G states that 'it is not surprising even a young dragon will have mastered one or more of the mystic arts at 6-12th level proficiency, often higher!' ... See Adventures on the High Seas, 2nd ed. ... for rules.

I guess that answers my question though. (only had 1e AotHS before, I'll have to find 2e, or order it)

So that would evidence (for dragons at least) they are able to take up a magic OCC (as a dual class) despite being an RCC.

HR

I do not agree. All that says is the average level for adults. Nothing saying that a hatchling cant be 10th level(might be considered a "fast burner" in dragon society). Nothing saying an adult cant be 5th level (might be considered a "slacker" in dragon society). That just tells you the most likely level of an adult. RUE is clear as to when dragons become adults (600 years old) and page 158 tells you what bonuses they get at that time.

Even on Explorers Unlimited, in the Phase World game, Dark Lord runs with these rules. I ran a Chang Ku dragon hatchling that had Temporal Wizard abilities and spells, but she was still a hatchling RCC. TGM doesn't allow dragons in the Merc Town game, so I don't know what his stance on it would be.

One thing is for sure, if you make a hatchling on EU, I can guarantee you'll never be an adult with how slow time runs on that site. I ran one character there for 4 years IRL and only 6 months passed in game. You'll never get to 600 years old after starting 8D6 days old at the oldest. That doesn't mean you cant get past level 9 with that character.

[Crucible]

Racial Character Class. Hmmm...a default class for a particular race.

Occupational Character Class...lessee...a class that describes your chosen occupation.

If you choose an OCC, then you do not get the skills for the RCC. If you choose your RCC, then when you choose an OCC your RCC skills are frozen and you have then cross classed.

Simple.

[Dr. Doom III]

Racial Character Class. Hmmm...a default class for a particular race.

Occupational Character Class...lessee...a class that describes your chosen occupation.

If you choose an OCC, then you do not get the skills for the RCC. If you choose your RCC, then when you choose an OCC your RCC skills are frozen and you have then cross classed.

Simple.

Most RCCs cannot change to an OCC. Ever.

Even then the most of the few who can can only choose from a limited list of OCCs.

[Nightmask]

Racial Character Class. Hmmm...a default class for a particular race.

Occupational Character Class...lessee...a class that describes your chosen occupation.

If you choose an OCC, then you do not get the skills for the RCC. If you choose your RCC, then when you choose an OCC your RCC skills are frozen and you have then cross classed.

Simple.

Most RCCs cannot change to an OCC. Ever.

Even then the most of the few who can can only choose from a limited list of OCCs.

That's not really a claim supported by the books, few races are locked into a single character class based on their race. Most races are simply presented with a set of skills and abilities that are most commonly seen for their ace, defined by a RCC. It's no different than how a Dog Boy or Battle Cat even when feral can tend to end up a 'default' class version like the CS trained ones. But they can still become any OCC that's available to anyone else if they choose something else, whether it be Ley Line Walker (Battle Cats are fascinated by magic) or Operator.

[Dr. Doom III]

That's not really a claim supported by the books, few races are locked into a single character class based on their race. Most races are simply presented with a set of skills and abilities that are most commonly seen for their ace, defined by a RCC. It's no different than how a Dog Boy or Battle Cat even when feral can tend to end up a 'default' class version like the CS trained ones. But they can still become any OCC that's available to anyone else if they choose something else, whether it be Ley Line Walker (Battle Cats are fascinated by magic) or Operator.

Actually those are the facts supported by the books.
Those changes to Dog Boys are recent changes and apply only to them.
They are exceptions not an example of the rule.

[Shark_Force]

That's not really a claim supported by the books, few races are locked into a single character class based on their race. Most races are simply presented with a set of skills and abilities that are most commonly seen for their ace, defined by a RCC. It's no different than how a Dog Boy or Battle Cat even when feral can tend to end up a 'default' class version like the CS trained ones. But they can still become any OCC that's available to anyone else if they choose something else, whether it be Ley Line Walker (Battle Cats are fascinated by magic) or Operator.

Actually those are the facts supported by the books.
Those changes to Dog Boys are recent changes and apply only to them.
They are exceptions not an example of the rule.

to further Dr Doom's point, the dog boy in RUE is not even an RCC, and as such discussions regarding RCCs do not apply.

[Crucible]

Racial Character Class. Hmmm...a default class for a particular race.

Occupational Character Class...lessee...a class that describes your chosen occupation.

If you choose an OCC, then you do not get the skills for the RCC. If you choose your RCC, then when you choose an OCC your RCC skills are frozen and you have then cross classed.

Simple.

Most RCCs cannot change to an OCC. Ever.

Even then the most of the few who can can only choose from a limited list of OCCs.

Show me where to find that.

[Nightmask]

That's not really a claim supported by the books, few races are locked into a single character class based on their race. Most races are simply presented with a set of skills and abilities that are most commonly seen for their ace, defined by a RCC. It's no different than how a Dog Boy or Battle Cat even when feral can tend to end up a 'default' class version like the CS trained ones. But they can still become any OCC that's available to anyone else if they choose something else, whether it be Ley Line Walker (Battle Cats are fascinated by magic) or Operator.

Actually those are the facts supported by the books.
Those changes to Dog Boys are recent changes and apply only to them.
They are exceptions not an example of the rule.

Dismissing them because you don't like the example doesn't make them any less proof that RCC isn't set in stone and the only thing possible for a particular character race. The fact that Palladium goes out of its way to point out when a particular character can only make use of the RCC also supports that, as you don't go pointing out standards you point out exceptions. Pointing out that a particular RCC is the only choice available or that only limited other options are available indicates that there is no restriction for those where such effort isn't made.

[Crucible]

I mean, do what you want to and like it. The thing is this. An RCC is a default character class for a particular race and OCC is an occupational character class. Forget cross classing altogether...who cares really...it is very simple. You have to choose ONE or the OTHER.

[wyrmraker]

I mean, do what you want to and like it. The thing is this. An RCC is a default character class for a particular race and OCC is an occupational character class. Forget cross classing altogether...who cares really...it is very simple. You have to choose ONE or the OTHER.

I would normally agree with you, except for the specific example of the Gurgoyle Psynetic Crazy, which is clearly allowed in Mindwerks. The mechanics of this sort of thing really need to be properly hammered out for these exceptions to the norm.

[Crucible]

I mean, do what you want to and like it. The thing is this. An RCC is a default character class for a particular race and OCC is an occupational character class. Forget cross classing altogether...who cares really...it is very simple. You have to choose ONE or the OTHER.

I would normally agree with you, except for the specific example of the Gurgoyle Psynetic Crazy, which is clearly allowed in Mindwerks. The mechanics of this sort of thing really need to be properly hammered out for these exceptions to the norm.

No different than a human Special Forces Soldier undergoing the Juicer Conversion. You keep all of your ORIGINAL skills, don't change anything because the process of chemicals or computers in the brain won't change that part of you, but you suddenly have powers. That's all that changes. Simple.

[Nightmask]

I mean, do what you want to and like it. The thing is this. An RCC is a default character class for a particular race and OCC is an occupational character class. Forget cross classing altogether...who cares really...it is very simple. You have to choose ONE or the OTHER.

Pretty much, either be an average member of your race or something different.

[Crucible]

I mean, do what you want to and like it. The thing is this. An RCC is a default character class for a particular race and OCC is an occupational character class. Forget cross classing altogether...who cares really...it is very simple. You have to choose ONE or the OTHER.

Pretty much, either be an average member of your race or something different.

yep

[Dr. Doom III]

That's not really a claim supported by the books, few races are locked into a single character class based on their race. Most races are simply presented with a set of skills and abilities that are most commonly seen for their ace, defined by a RCC. It's no different than how a Dog Boy or Battle Cat even when feral can tend to end up a 'default' class version like the CS trained ones. But they can still become any OCC that's available to anyone else if they choose something else, whether it be Ley Line Walker (Battle Cats are fascinated by magic) or Operator.

Actually those are the facts supported by the books.
Those changes to Dog Boys are recent changes and apply only to them.
They are exceptions not an example of the rule.

Dismissing them because you don't like the example doesn't make them any less proof that RCC isn't set in stone and the only thing possible for a particular character race. The fact that Palladium goes out of its way to point out when a particular character can only make use of the RCC also supports that, as you don't go pointing out standards you point out exceptions. Pointing out that a particular RCC is the only choice available or that only limited other options are available indicates that there is no restriction for those where such effort isn't made.

Unless it says that they aren't set in stone then they are. That's how racial character classes work. Like's got nothing to do with it.
When you have an RCC it means each and ever member of that race are it. Occasionally it will say something like "some can become X,Y, or Z OCC". Then they can be X,Y, or Z OCC but not anything else.
If you have a virtually unlimited selection of OCC you are a race. You will have no default racial character class.
RCCs are not a bonus character class option only avalible to members of that specific race.

[Nightmask]

Unless it says that they aren't set in stone then they are. That's how racial character classes work. Like's got nothing to do with it.
When you have an RCC it means each and ever member of that race are it. Occasionally it will say something like "some can become X,Y, or Z OCC". Then they can be X,Y, or Z OCC but not anything else.
If you have a virtually unlimited selection of OCC you are a race. You will have no default racial character class.
RCCs are not a bonus character class option only avalible to members of that specific race.

Except that's not what an RCC is, and everything's a particular race whether it's a demon, human, or Dog Boy. Whether the race provides for more than a particular OCC or not doesn't make it not a race. That's just your opinion and certainly not supported by what you see in the Palladium books as their position on things. RCC in general are simply OCC selections commonly picked up by a particular race, no different than a regional OCC that people in a particular area pick up but unseen elsewhere.

It'd be pretty ridiculous to insist that a character could pick up the skills in the default RCC for their race even when raised on a completely different planet with zero exposure to any of the skills associated with the RCC. Sure that happens with dragons but they explicitly have racial knowledge that they're all just born with, that's definitely not the standard by any stretch of the imagination. RCC in general must in most cases be a standard OCC that applies to that race, but without direct statement to the contrary it's not the only OCC available by any means.

[Crucible]

There seems to be a serious misunderstanding here. I think its the GM's guide or in the RUE where it explains the difference between your character's Race and RCC and how the RCC is just a default Class. RCC, PCC, and OCC is just a way of saying Character Class. In most systems they just say Class. Here they are refined. PCC has more in common with RCC because they aren't truly chosen, however a PCC is set in stone whereas you do not have to accept a RCC. You still get all race related abilities, but the RCC skills don't have to be taken. You can instead choose a PCC or OCC.

Its really only hard if you try and overthink it. Try and understand that it is Racial Character Class. Not Race.

[Dr. Doom III]

Unless it says that they aren't set in stone then they are. That's how racial character classes work. Like's got nothing to do with it.
When you have an RCC it means each and ever member of that race are it. Occasionally it will say something like "some can become X,Y, or Z OCC". Then they can be X,Y, or Z OCC but not anything else.
If you have a virtually unlimited selection of OCC you are a race. You will have no default racial character class.
RCCs are not a bonus character class option only avalible to members of that specific race.

Except that's not what an RCC is, and everything's a particular race whether it's a demon, human, or Dog Boy. Whether the race provides for more than a particular OCC or not doesn't make it not a race. That's just your opinion and certainly not supported by what you see in the Palladium books as their position on things. RCC in general are simply OCC selections commonly picked up by a particular race, no different than a regional OCC that people in a particular area pick up but unseen elsewhere.

You are describing races not racial character classes.
RCCs are not a selection. They are the default. With few exceptions any race with an RCC is that RCC alone. There is no choice at all.
That’s the way they work. Believing otherwise just demonstrates a fundamental misunderstanding of the game mechanics.

It'd be pretty ridiculous to insist that a character could pick up the skills in the default RCC for their race even when raised on a completely different planet with zero exposure to any of the skills associated with the RCC. Sure that happens with dragons but they explicitly have racial knowledge that they're all just born with, that's definitely not the standard by any stretch of the imagination. RCC in general must in most cases be a standard OCC that applies to that race, but without direct statement to the contrary it's not the only OCC available by any means.

Ridiculous or not those are the rules of the game. You can house rule it however you want to make it make sense to you but that doesn’t change the actual rules.
Holy Terrors are only Holy Terrors because Holy Terrors are an RCC. There are no Holy Terror Grunts or Operators or Mind Melters or Ley Line Walkers. There are just Holy Terrors because they are an RCC with no option for OCCs. It doesn’t mater where the come from or where they grow up or how much they want to emulate that Gunslinger in the group. They are Holy Terrors because they can only be Holy Terrors.

You can replace Holy Terrors with any and every RCC that does not have a choice of OCC in their description or retconed in a new book because that is how it works.

[Nightmask]

There seems to be a serious misunderstanding here. I think its the GM's guide or in the RUE where it explains the difference between your character's Race and RCC and how the RCC is just a default Class. RCC, PCC, and OCC is just a way of saying Character Class. In most systems they just say Class. Here they are refined. PCC has more in common with RCC because they aren't truly chosen, however a PCC is set in stone whereas you do not have to accept a RCC. You still get all race related abilities, but the RCC skills don't have to be taken. You can instead choose a PCC or OCC.

Its really only hard if you try and overthink it. Try and understand that it is Racial Character Class. Not Race.

Actually PCC are chosen, inasmuch as any class that provides inherent powers is. Someone chose to develop his psychic abilities to levels higher than those with a standard OCC but with Minor or Major psionics (which explicitly notes that the individual lost OCC skills to focus on developing his psionics, showing you train and work psychic powers like anything else). Nor are PCC set in stone, the CS for example has some inhumane programs that have a high level of effectiveness in causing an individual to develop a particular psychic OCC. If you're set in stone you couldn't force someone to become a particular field.

Plus since Palladium's dropped that PCC designation as an unnecessary distinction there's only the OCC and RCC anymore. Either way it would have been easier if Palladium had just introduced races and left off calling it a Racial Character Class to confuse people into thinking it was the only thing possible for that race to learn.

[Crucible]

There seems to be a serious misunderstanding here. I think its the GM's guide or in the RUE where it explains the difference between your character's Race and RCC and how the RCC is just a default Class. RCC, PCC, and OCC is just a way of saying Character Class. In most systems they just say Class. Here they are refined. PCC has more in common with RCC because they aren't truly chosen, however a PCC is set in stone whereas you do not have to accept a RCC. You still get all race related abilities, but the RCC skills don't have to be taken. You can instead choose a PCC or OCC.

Its really only hard if you try and overthink it. Try and understand that it is Racial Character Class. Not Race.

Actually PCC are chosen, inasmuch as any class that provides inherent powers is. Someone chose to develop his psychic abilities to levels higher than those with a standard OCC but with Minor or Major psionics (which explicitly notes that the individual lost OCC skills to focus on developing his psionics, showing you train and work psychic powers like anything else). Nor are PCC set in stone, the CS for example has some inhumane programs that have a high level of effectiveness in causing an individual to develop a particular psychic OCC. If you're set in stone you couldn't force someone to become a particular field.

Plus since Palladium's dropped that PCC designation as an unnecessary distinction there's only the OCC and RCC anymore. Either way it would have been easier if Palladium had just introduced races and left off calling it a Racial Character Class to confuse people into thinking it was the only thing possible for that race to learn.

I understand what you are saying above, so if you have that understanding enough to "correct" me then what is the problem? I leave it off personally, but there are variables in my game that get discussed. I don't just pull out the sheets and start writing, we have a lot to discuss before a name is printed down. Character Creation takes days sometimes.

[Nightmask]

Except that's not what an RCC is, and everything's a particular race whether it's a demon, human, or Dog Boy. Whether the race provides for more than a particular OCC or not doesn't make it not a race. That's just your opinion and certainly not supported by what you see in the Palladium books as their position on things. RCC in general are simply OCC selections commonly picked up by a particular race, no different than a regional OCC that people in a particular area pick up but unseen elsewhere.

You are describing races not racial character classes.
RCCs are not a selection. They are the default. With few exceptions any race with an RCC is that RCC alone. There is no choice at all.
That’s the way they work. Believing otherwise just demonstrates a fundamental misunderstanding of the game mechanics.

I understand the game mechanics just fine, but apparently you don't when you can refer to it as a default which something isn't a default if there's a choice available then insist there is no choice available when there obviously is. You may think that's how it works but that's not actually how it works. RCC is just a standard skill selection for a particular race, a typical member of the race, just as you can find a list of typical skills for any other race. That doesn't mean they can't learn anything else or be brought up a-typically.

It'd be pretty ridiculous to insist that a character could pick up the skills in the default RCC for their race even when raised on a completely different planet with zero exposure to any of the skills associated with the RCC. Sure that happens with dragons but they explicitly have racial knowledge that they're all just born with, that's definitely not the standard by any stretch of the imagination. RCC in general must in most cases be a standard OCC that applies to that race, but without direct statement to the contrary it's not the only OCC available by any means.

Ridiculous or not those are the rules of the game. You can house rule it however you want to make it make sense to you but that doesn’t change the actual rules.
Holy Terrors are only Holy Terrors because Holy Terrors are an RCC. There are no Holy Terror Grunts or Operators or Mind Melters or Ley Line Walkers. There are just Holy Terrors because they are an RCC with no option for OCCs. It doesn’t mater where the come from or where they grow up or how much they want to emulate that Gunslinger in the group. They are Holy Terrors because they can only be Holy Terrors.

You can replace Holy Terrors with any and every RCC that does not have a choice of OCC in their description or retconed in a new book because that is how it works.

Sorry but pointing out your opinion isn't the canon for Palladium doesn't make something a house rule. Holy Terrors were introduced in a limited sampling based on a run of Holy Terror warriors heading through a gate, which is decidedly not a representative sampling of the race. Naturally when the only sampling available (as the book notes the connection to their dimension was cut and unreproducible) is warriors you're going to have a limited sampling of skills, just as a US aircraft carrier being rifted into the future is going to have a limited sampling of skills available. Doesn't make them an RCC only able to learn a set of skills. Context is important.

Your statement's also faulty as it explicitly restricts the options to just RCC that support your conclusion, pretending that all those that contradict it don't exist. The number of RCC that are obviously incapable of learning a different skillset than what's given as a default is small, and limited to races with things like genetic memory that install a set of skills and locks them into a range of development. You'd have to turn off all common sense and logic to insist that the books actually hold that you can learn skills that don't even exist where you're raised just because you're a particular race that has no evidence of any sort of race memory or mystical ability to just gain knowledge. For all its flaws (and all games have them) I credit Palladium's staff with more intelligence than that.

[Nightmask]

There seems to be a serious misunderstanding here. I think its the GM's guide or in the RUE where it explains the difference between your character's Race and RCC and how the RCC is just a default Class. RCC, PCC, and OCC is just a way of saying Character Class. In most systems they just say Class. Here they are refined. PCC has more in common with RCC because they aren't truly chosen, however a PCC is set in stone whereas you do not have to accept a RCC. You still get all race related abilities, but the RCC skills don't have to be taken. You can instead choose a PCC or OCC.

Its really only hard if you try and overthink it. Try and understand that it is Racial Character Class. Not Race.

Actually PCC are chosen, inasmuch as any class that provides inherent powers is. Someone chose to develop his psychic abilities to levels higher than those with a standard OCC but with Minor or Major psionics (which explicitly notes that the individual lost OCC skills to focus on developing his psionics, showing you train and work psychic powers like anything else). Nor are PCC set in stone, the CS for example has some inhumane programs that have a high level of effectiveness in causing an individual to develop a particular psychic OCC. If you're set in stone you couldn't force someone to become a particular field.

Plus since Palladium's dropped that PCC designation as an unnecessary distinction there's only the OCC and RCC anymore. Either way it would have been easier if Palladium had just introduced races and left off calling it a Racial Character Class to confuse people into thinking it was the only thing possible for that race to learn.

I understand what you are saying above, so if you have that understanding enough to "correct" me then what is the problem? I leave it off personally, but there are variables in my game that get discussed. I don't just pull out the sheets and start writing, we have a lot to discuss before a name is printed down. Character Creation takes days sometimes.

Palladium does require a fair amount of work, particularly when it comes to Rifts given the range of options available. As far as the correction goes, it's as much for anyone else coming along reading trying to deal with books that call what they read as a PCC an OCC, or vice versa.

[Crucible]

There seems to be a serious misunderstanding here. I think its the GM's guide or in the RUE where it explains the difference between your character's Race and RCC and how the RCC is just a default Class. RCC, PCC, and OCC is just a way of saying Character Class. In most systems they just say Class. Here they are refined. PCC has more in common with RCC because they aren't truly chosen, however a PCC is set in stone whereas you do not have to accept a RCC. You still get all race related abilities, but the RCC skills don't have to be taken. You can instead choose a PCC or OCC.

Its really only hard if you try and overthink it. Try and understand that it is Racial Character Class. Not Race.

Actually PCC are chosen, inasmuch as any class that provides inherent powers is. Someone chose to develop his psychic abilities to levels higher than those with a standard OCC but with Minor or Major psionics (which explicitly notes that the individual lost OCC skills to focus on developing his psionics, showing you train and work psychic powers like anything else). Nor are PCC set in stone, the CS for example has some inhumane programs that have a high level of effectiveness in causing an individual to develop a particular psychic OCC. If you're set in stone you couldn't force someone to become a particular field.

Plus since Palladium's dropped that PCC designation as an unnecessary distinction there's only the OCC and RCC anymore. Either way it would have been easier if Palladium had just introduced races and left off calling it a Racial Character Class to confuse people into thinking it was the only thing possible for that race to learn.

I understand what you are saying above, so if you have that understanding enough to "correct" me then what is the problem? I leave it off personally, but there are variables in my game that get discussed. I don't just pull out the sheets and start writing, we have a lot to discuss before a name is printed down. Character Creation takes days sometimes.

Palladium does require a fair amount of work, particularly when it comes to Rifts given the range of options available. As far as the correction goes, it's as much for anyone else coming along reading trying to deal with books that call what they read as a PCC an OCC, or vice versa.

I just don't get so technical. It doesn't benefit me or the game. I honestly thought that you didn't understand so I tried to explain it simply. For me? I've been playing since 1994 and most of my group has been there since that time. I use whatever "slang" and everyone knows what I mean, its real easy. We take so long because investing time in your character makes the player more familiar with what he/she has.

[Nightmask]

Palladium does require a fair amount of work, particularly when it comes to Rifts given the range of options available. As far as the correction goes, it's as much for anyone else coming along reading trying to deal with books that call what they read as a PCC an OCC, or vice versa.

I just don't get so technical. It doesn't benefit me or the game. I honestly thought that you didn't understand so I tried to explain it simply. For me? I've been playing since 1994 and most of my group has been there since that time. I use whatever "slang" and everyone knows what I mean, its real easy. We take so long because investing time in your character makes the player more familiar with what he/she has.

I imagine you might have noticed that you're in the minority around here when it comes to not getting technical right? Got to respond to them on their terms when that comes up, and they'll quibble over the slightest thing.

[Crucible]

Palladium does require a fair amount of work, particularly when it comes to Rifts given the range of options available. As far as the correction goes, it's as much for anyone else coming along reading trying to deal with books that call what they read as a PCC an OCC, or vice versa.

I just don't get so technical. It doesn't benefit me or the game. I honestly thought that you didn't understand so I tried to explain it simply. For me? I've been playing since 1994 and most of my group has been there since that time. I use whatever "slang" and everyone knows what I mean, its real easy. We take so long because investing time in your character makes the player more familiar with what he/she has.

I imagine you might have noticed that you're in the minority around here when it comes to not getting technical right? Got to respond to them on their terms when that comes up, and they'll quibble over the slightest thing.

I have noticed. I just don't see it in that way and when I do...the game becomes less fun for me.

[Nightmask]

Palladium does require a fair amount of work, particularly when it comes to Rifts given the range of options available. As far as the correction goes, it's as much for anyone else coming along reading trying to deal with books that call what they read as a PCC an OCC, or vice versa.

I just don't get so technical. It doesn't benefit me or the game. I honestly thought that you didn't understand so I tried to explain it simply. For me? I've been playing since 1994 and most of my group has been there since that time. I use whatever "slang" and everyone knows what I mean, its real easy. We take so long because investing time in your character makes the player more familiar with what he/she has.

I imagine you might have noticed that you're in the minority around here when it comes to not getting technical right? Got to respond to them on their terms when that comes up, and they'll quibble over the slightest thing.

I have noticed. I just don't see it in that way and when I do...the game becomes less fun for me.

Rigidness does tend to have that tendency, especially when you're trying to get into your character and you're told repeatedly that a game mechanic that's just not working is going to be enforced 'because that's how it is!', rather than the GM show even a modicum of common sense and flexibility and see that the rule just isn't working and change it. The game books in the end aren't bibles they're guidelines and deviating from them isn't a heresy.

[Crucible]

Palladium does require a fair amount of work, particularly when it comes to Rifts given the range of options available. As far as the correction goes, it's as much for anyone else coming along reading trying to deal with books that call what they read as a PCC an OCC, or vice versa.

I just don't get so technical. It doesn't benefit me or the game. I honestly thought that you didn't understand so I tried to explain it simply. For me? I've been playing since 1994 and most of my group has been there since that time. I use whatever "slang" and everyone knows what I mean, its real easy. We take so long because investing time in your character makes the player more familiar with what he/she has.

I imagine you might have noticed that you're in the minority around here when it comes to not getting technical right? Got to respond to them on their terms when that comes up, and they'll quibble over the slightest thing.

I have noticed. I just don't see it in that way and when I do...the game becomes less fun for me.

Rigidness does tend to have that tendency, especially when you're trying to get into your character and you're told repeatedly that a game mechanic that's just not working is going to be enforced 'because that's how it is!', rather than the GM show even a modicum of common sense and flexibility and see that the rule just isn't working and change it. The game books in the end aren't bibles they're guidelines and deviating from them isn't a heresy.

+1 man! That is the whole idea behing an RPG. Use some common sense and know what is what.

[Dr. Doom III]

Except that's not what an RCC is, and everything's a particular race whether it's a demon, human, or Dog Boy. Whether the race provides for more than a particular OCC or not doesn't make it not a race. That's just your opinion and certainly not supported by what you see in the Palladium books as their position on things. RCC in general are simply OCC selections commonly picked up by a particular race, no different than a regional OCC that people in a particular area pick up but unseen elsewhere.

You are describing races not racial character classes.
RCCs are not a selection. They are the default. With few exceptions any race with an RCC is that RCC alone. There is no choice at all.
That’s the way they work. Believing otherwise just demonstrates a fundamental misunderstanding of the game mechanics.

I understand the game mechanics just fine, but apparently you don't when you can refer to it as a default which something isn't a default if there's a choice available then insist there is no choice available when there obviously is. You may think that's how it works but that's not actually how it works. RCC is just a standard skill selection for a particular race, a typical member of the race, just as you can find a list of typical skills for any other race. That doesn't mean they can't learn anything else or be brought up a-typically.

It'd be pretty ridiculous to insist that a character could pick up the skills in the default RCC for their race even when raised on a completely different planet with zero exposure to any of the skills associated with the RCC. Sure that happens with dragons but they explicitly have racial knowledge that they're all just born with, that's definitely not the standard by any stretch of the imagination. RCC in general must in most cases be a standard OCC that applies to that race, but without direct statement to the contrary it's not the only OCC available by any means.

Ridiculous or not those are the rules of the game. You can house rule it however you want to make it make sense to you but that doesn’t change the actual rules.
Holy Terrors are only Holy Terrors because Holy Terrors are an RCC. There are no Holy Terror Grunts or Operators or Mind Melters or Ley Line Walkers. There are just Holy Terrors because they are an RCC with no option for OCCs. It doesn’t mater where the come from or where they grow up or how much they want to emulate that Gunslinger in the group. They are Holy Terrors because they can only be Holy Terrors.

You can replace Holy Terrors with any and every RCC that does not have a choice of OCC in their description or retconed in a new book because that is how it works.

Sorry but pointing out your opinion isn't the canon for Palladium doesn't make something a house rule. Holy Terrors were introduced in a limited sampling based on a run of Holy Terror warriors heading through a gate, which is decidedly not a representative sampling of the race. Naturally when the only sampling available (as the book notes the connection to their dimension was cut and unreproducible) is warriors you're going to have a limited sampling of skills, just as a US aircraft carrier being rifted into the future is going to have a limited sampling of skills available. Doesn't make them an RCC only able to learn a set of skills. Context is important.

Your statement's also faulty as it explicitly restricts the options to just RCC that support your conclusion, pretending that all those that contradict it don't exist. The number of RCC that are obviously incapable of learning a different skillset than what's given as a default is small, and limited to races with things like genetic memory that install a set of skills and locks them into a range of development. You'd have to turn off all common sense and logic to insist that the books actually hold that you can learn skills that don't even exist where you're raised just because you're a particular race that has no evidence of any sort of race memory or mystical ability to just gain knowledge. For all its flaws (and all games have them) I credit Palladium's staff with more intelligence than that.

You can call it opinion all you want but it doesn't make it so.

[Nightmask]

Except that's not what an RCC is, and everything's a particular race whether it's a demon, human, or Dog Boy. Whether the race provides for more than a particular OCC or not doesn't make it not a race. That's just your opinion and certainly not supported by what you see in the Palladium books as their position on things. RCC in general are simply OCC selections commonly picked up by a particular race, no different than a regional OCC that people in a particular area pick up but unseen elsewhere.

You are describing races not racial character classes.
RCCs are not a selection. They are the default. With few exceptions any race with an RCC is that RCC alone. There is no choice at all.
That’s the way they work. Believing otherwise just demonstrates a fundamental misunderstanding of the game mechanics.

I understand the game mechanics just fine, but apparently you don't when you can refer to it as a default which something isn't a default if there's a choice available then insist there is no choice available when there obviously is. You may think that's how it works but that's not actually how it works. RCC is just a standard skill selection for a particular race, a typical member of the race, just as you can find a list of typical skills for any other race. That doesn't mean they can't learn anything else or be brought up a-typically.

It'd be pretty ridiculous to insist that a character could pick up the skills in the default RCC for their race even when raised on a completely different planet with zero exposure to any of the skills associated with the RCC. Sure that happens with dragons but they explicitly have racial knowledge that they're all just born with, that's definitely not the standard by any stretch of the imagination. RCC in general must in most cases be a standard OCC that applies to that race, but without direct statement to the contrary it's not the only OCC available by any means.

Ridiculous or not those are the rules of the game. You can house rule it however you want to make it make sense to you but that doesn’t change the actual rules.
Holy Terrors are only Holy Terrors because Holy Terrors are an RCC. There are no Holy Terror Grunts or Operators or Mind Melters or Ley Line Walkers. There are just Holy Terrors because they are an RCC with no option for OCCs. It doesn’t mater where the come from or where they grow up or how much they want to emulate that Gunslinger in the group. They are Holy Terrors because they can only be Holy Terrors.

You can replace Holy Terrors with any and every RCC that does not have a choice of OCC in their description or retconed in a new book because that is how it works.

Sorry but pointing out your opinion isn't the canon for Palladium doesn't make something a house rule. Holy Terrors were introduced in a limited sampling based on a run of Holy Terror warriors heading through a gate, which is decidedly not a representative sampling of the race. Naturally when the only sampling available (as the book notes the connection to their dimension was cut and unreproducible) is warriors you're going to have a limited sampling of skills, just as a US aircraft carrier being rifted into the future is going to have a limited sampling of skills available. Doesn't make them an RCC only able to learn a set of skills. Context is important.

Your statement's also faulty as it explicitly restricts the options to just RCC that support your conclusion, pretending that all those that contradict it don't exist. The number of RCC that are obviously incapable of learning a different skillset than what's given as a default is small, and limited to races with things like genetic memory that install a set of skills and locks them into a range of development. You'd have to turn off all common sense and logic to insist that the books actually hold that you can learn skills that don't even exist where you're raised just because you're a particular race that has no evidence of any sort of race memory or mystical ability to just gain knowledge. For all its flaws (and all games have them) I credit Palladium's staff with more intelligence than that.

You can call it opinion all you want but it doesn't make it so.

True, the fact that the books disagree with it is what makes it an opinion. The books simply don't support the opinion that an RCC is a hard-wired, impossible to change selection for a race. The very fact they go out of the way in a few cases to state where they are makes that an exception and not the rule. It's merely opinion that it's the other way around. To not be opinion it would require things the other way around, pointing out exceptions where an RCC isn't the only choice possible. It would require the massively illogical position that a character would develop skills that don't even exist (like magically learning swimming when raised on a desert planet where there isn't enough water in one place to do more than take a bath let alone swim) even when the race in question has absolutely nothing in its make-up to support it being able to do something like that. Insisting such illogic is what's actually written into the books makes it very much an opinion unsupported by the books.