Does God and Jesus exist in rifts earth?

[llywelyn]

As this has come up in my campaign, El was a western Semitic deity who decided to push out the competition, and in large part did so. The seventy sons of El and his wife (Asherah, who technically was Yahweh's) were likewise edged out. El was patient but began losing his followers' faith again and sent his "only" son to get them back in line. That did not go as planned, Yeshua was given to sacrifice and El's followers re-instituted a more patriarchal theology. As El's churches ascended, magic waned and other pantheons were further eroded by low magic, active conversion, and extra-planar wars (the Prophecy was right about the war in heaven, but wrong about who all was fighting it). Then the rifts came, magic returned, and the world went to hell. El had left things on cruise control for some time and was ill-prepared for the apocalypse (it wasn't the one He planned). His priesthood is active, but his ex-wife is also active and highly put out. Fortunately for him, Asherah is still very minor and her lone champion is off saving the world from the Apocalypse Demons.

[With the obvious exception that El's troupe was plenty patriarchal already, but depending on when your comparative religion teacher went to school, they might have very... well, the charitable term would be "as-to-yet-unsupported" views on that subject. The only tiny part of Judaism that's matriarchal is tracing "Jewishness" through the mom & that was basically made up on the spot to justify one of the later kings' lineages from David. Up to that point, there was no evidence that the Jews followed that practice (although they were exclusive enough it's kind of a moot point).]

If I were running the Mesopotamian angle (admittedly, I'm partial to the Big-Guy-above-the-Fray), I would've made more of the guy being a minor member of the Sumerian pantheon, disliking the direction Marduk was taking things, and taking a big gamble on creating a niche for himself with Abraham and his clan ("Go west, man!"). He sees it pay off handsomely during the Exodus ("No other gods for you guys any more") and then doesn't know what to make of what happens once Paul gets involved, turns the spotlight on the kid, and hits the lottery by the time of Constantine.

But if you start with the Ugaritic El, what did you make of Abraham's Lord? Just a self-serving retcon? or it started out as Yhwh and He got His place usurped by another facet of the elohim?

I have included other bits of historical monotheism, such as a daughter of Frederick II of Hohenstauffen (who, I admit, is my favorite medieval figure). What the party hasn't looked into yet is the ritual described to wake the King Under the Mountain in Germany's greatest hour of need.

:D

[SamBell]

As this has come up in my campaign, El was a western Semitic deity who decided to push out the competition, and in large part did so. The seventy sons of El and his wife (Asherah, who technically was Yahweh's) were likewise edged out. El was patient but began losing his followers' faith again and sent his "only" son to get them back in line. That did not go as planned, Yeshua was given to sacrifice and El's followers re-instituted a more patriarchal theology. As El's churches ascended, magic waned and other pantheons were further eroded by low magic, active conversion, and extra-planar wars (the Prophecy was right about the war in heaven, but wrong about who all was fighting it). Then the rifts came, magic returned, and the world went to hell. El had left things on cruise control for some time and was ill-prepared for the apocalypse (it wasn't the one He planned). His priesthood is active, but his ex-wife is also active and highly put out. Fortunately for him, Asherah is still very minor and her lone champion is off saving the world from the Apocalypse Demons.

Why do people put "G-d" or not say Jesus? It's God and Jesus for their sake. Hehe. See what I did there?
[With the obvious exception that El's troupe was plenty patriarchal already, but depending on when your comparative religion teacher went to school, they might have very... well, the charitable term would be "as-to-yet-unsupported" views on that subject. The only tiny part of Judaism that's matriarchal is tracing "Jewishness" through the mom & that was basically made up on the spot to justify one of the later kings' lineages from David. Up to that point, there was no evidence that the Jews followed that practice (although they were exclusive enough it's kind of a moot point).]

If I were running the Mesopotamian angle (admittedly, I'm partial to the Big-Guy-above-the-Fray), I would've made more of the guy being a minor member of the Sumerian pantheon, disliking the direction Marduk was taking things, and taking a big gamble on creating a niche for himself with Abraham and his clan ("Go west, man!"). He sees it pay off handsomely during the Exodus ("No other gods for you guys any more") and then doesn't know what to make of what happens once Paul gets involved, turns the spotlight on the kid, and hits the lottery by the time of Constantine.

But if you start with the Ugaritic El, what did you make of Abraham's Lord? Just a self-serving retcon? or it started out as Yhwh and He got His place usurped by another facet of the elohim?

I have included other bits of historical monotheism, such as a daughter of Frederick II of Hohenstauffen (who, I admit, is my favorite medieval figure). What the party hasn't looked into yet is the ritual described to wake the King Under the Mountain in Germany's greatest hour of need.

:D

[Misfit KotLD]

As this has come up in my campaign, El was a western Semitic deity who decided to push out the competition, and in large part did so. The seventy sons of El and his wife (Asherah, who technically was Yahweh's) were likewise edged out. El was patient but began losing his followers' faith again and sent his "only" son to get them back in line. That did not go as planned, Yeshua was given to sacrifice and El's followers re-instituted a more patriarchal theology. As El's churches ascended, magic waned and other pantheons were further eroded by low magic, active conversion, and extra-planar wars (the Prophecy was right about the war in heaven, but wrong about who all was fighting it). Then the rifts came, magic returned, and the world went to hell. El had left things on cruise control for some time and was ill-prepared for the apocalypse (it wasn't the one He planned). His priesthood is active, but his ex-wife is also active and highly put out. Fortunately for him, Asherah is still very minor and her lone champion is off saving the world from the Apocalypse Demons.

[With the obvious exception that El's troupe was plenty patriarchal already, but depending on when your comparative religion teacher went to school, they might have very... well, the charitable term would be "as-to-yet-unsupported" views on that subject. The only tiny part of Judaism that's matriarchal is tracing "Jewishness" through the mom & that was basically made up on the spot to justify one of the later kings' lineages from David. Up to that point, there was no evidence that the Jews followed that practice (although they were exclusive enough it's kind of a moot point).]

If I were running the Mesopotamian angle (admittedly, I'm partial to the Big-Guy-above-the-Fray), I would've made more of the guy being a minor member of the Sumerian pantheon, disliking the direction Marduk was taking things, and taking a big gamble on creating a niche for himself with Abraham and his clan ("Go west, man!"). He sees it pay off handsomely during the Exodus ("No other gods for you guys any more") and then doesn't know what to make of what happens once Paul gets involved, turns the spotlight on the kid, and hits the lottery by the time of Constantine.

But if you start with the Ugaritic El, what did you make of Abraham's Lord? Just a self-serving retcon? or it started out as Yhwh and He got His place usurped by another facet of the elohim?

I have included other bits of historical monotheism, such as a daughter of Frederick II of Hohenstauffen (who, I admit, is my favorite medieval figure). What the party hasn't looked into yet is the ritual described to wake the King Under the Mountain in Germany's greatest hour of need.

:D

There's so much amalgation (or if you prefer, syncretism) going on I went with something simpler to keep in game. Which is why El's ex-wife is Asherah, though she was yahweh's consort/wife.

[llywelyn]

Why do people put "G-d"

Was that a rhetorical question? If not, read up, although that doesn't include the actual source (Deut. 12:4, via Shabbat 115a). I'm not Jewish, but it doesn't mean it doesn't hurt to be respectful in the presence of the Almighty. Kind of like the scene in West Wing where Jeb hires the secretary because - when she was cursing him out in her earlier letter - she took the time to say "Mr. President".

Personally, though, I think those rabbis copped out: the idea of holy computers slowly filling their memory chips with each instantiation of His name is actually kinda beautiful and should be easy enough to manage. (Although keeping those instantiations on the exact bits and bytes where they first occurred might be much more difficult to manage and might require specialized architecture. You could even have a holy node and just direct any new appearances to those bits. On the other hand, if you're serious about those bytes *appearance* on the screen, scrolling down the wrong Catholic Encyclopedia or Wiki article would black out your monitor in no time at all.)

(Googling the link, I'm typing in "why do j...", it gets completed "why do japanese women cry" ... )

Why do people not say Jesus?

Who doesn't say Jesus?

I mean, Anglos don't name their children after Him, but there's nothing odd about saying it.

[Misfit KotLD]

Why do people put "G-d"

Was that a rhetorical question? If not, read up, although that doesn't include the actual source (Deut. 12:4, via Shabbat 115a). I'm not Jewish, but it doesn't mean it doesn't hurt to be respectful in the presence of the Almighty. Kind of like the scene in West Wing where Jeb hires the secretary because - when she was cursing him out in her earlier letter - she took the time to say "Mr. President".

Personally, though, I think those rabbis copped out: the idea of holy computers slowly filling their memory chips with each instantiation of His name is actually kinda beautiful and should be easy enough to manage. (Although keeping those instantiations on the exact bits and bytes where they first occurred might be much more difficult to manage and might require specialized architecture. You could even have a holy node and just direct any new appearances to those bits. On the other hand, if you're serious about those bytes *appearance* on the screen, scrolling down the wrong Catholic Encyclopedia or Wiki article would black out your monitor in no time at all.)

(Googling the link, I'm typing in "why do j...", it gets completed "why do japanese women cry" ... )

Why do people not say Jesus?

Who doesn't say Jesus?

I mean, Anglos don't name their children after Him, but there's nothing odd about saying it.

Maybe he's referring to that commandment about not taking a particular name in vain?

[zaccheus]

I refuse to have G-ds (including Yahweh , Yesua or Satan) statted in game as NPCs. Only their Angels,Demons & messengers will be , as well as their followers n' clergy.

But if they stat God, Jesus or Satan that is going too far??

I didn't take Lucy's post like that at all.

I think he just had the entirely appropriate reaction that PCs should not even approach being able to shoot holes in them and that that's just not how their stories work. It's all wheels within wheels within wheels with these damn Swis... I mean, late-Semitic dieties.

Thor, on the other hand, does have a history of brawling with humans and it's just theoretically possible that some brawler (with copious behind-the-scenes help from Loki) could fight him to a standstill and get some lunch coupons for Valhalla.

I find this funny. The abrahamic god is all powerful, enven though an army of guys with iron chariots were too much for him and some craft Babylonian carpenters nearly launched in invasion on heaven itself, yet Thor threw down with bad ads frost giants and he's the weaker of the two. Yahweh is at best a decent water/war god,(the flood was pretty impressive), im actually looking forward to starting him out. I'll probably make him a fairly tough AI with all warlock spells (all elements because he gets credit for just about every major weather event). Besides that I really don't see anything special about him. He just got really lucky with PR vIa the roman empire, then that got put on steroids by the British empire, and recently put on crack thanks to the American empire. It's only a matter of time for him to go the way of Zeus into mythology/fiction. Might as well get that started putting him on rifts earth and letting players shoot him full of holes. Or die trying

[glitterboy2098]

I refuse to have G-ds (including Yahweh , Yesua or Satan) statted in game as NPCs. Only their Angels,Demons & messengers will be , as well as their followers n' clergy.

But Thor who is still worshipped as well as various goddesses that are worshipped by Wiccans an entire Pantheon worshipped by the Hindu the oldest organized religion.

But if they stat God, Jesus or Satan that is going too far??

Thor and the other Norse gods are specifically said to be mortal (they have to eat special food to extend their lives, and they'll all die in raganarok), and have a mythological tradition of coming to our world and slumming about, either in disguise or in full on 'thor-ness' kicking ass.
The Hindu pantheon is also semi-mortal, in that by their own traditions the gods can die, albeit IIRC they're not as fatalistic about it as the norse were. and they also have a tradition of their gods coming to our world, in hidden or obvious form, with the Avatar tradition.
on the otherhand christianity doesn't have such traditions. G_D and 'Jesus the son' are all held to be not only immortal, but non-harmable. they also don't exist on our plane of existance, and don't ever show up there. there is one specific time when both will appear in our existance, on Judgement day when they show up, wipe out all evil, and reshape the world into an eternal paradise where we spend the rest of eternity in their presence singing praises.
so it basically boils down to "why stat out what you'll never meet?"
religiously speaking, i can walk outside today and could meet thor. i could meet kali. and after said meeting i can go about my day as otherwise normal. on the otherhand, if i go out today and G_D or jesus shows up, well, that means judgement day ahs come, i'm gonna get judged on my sins, and the entire world will change completely.
lets replace me with my character in a RPG. if Thor or kali show up? cool, neat encounter. if G_D or jesus shows up? games over, the entire gameworld has been replaced by sunshine and clouds and fluffy kittens. no more evil to fight, no more adventures, just my character in an eternal paradise singing songs.
Angels? maybe, but the bible barely supports angels. they're missing entirely from the old testiment, and in the new testement they only really show up in revelations.. which was written fairly recently compared to the rest.
the concept of Angels (and of Satan, the head of evil) was an element of popular faith christianity got from the Zoroastrians of persia, where some of the earlier christian sects hid out to avoid persecution. zoroastrians beleived in a god of good (the Ahura mazda, Zoroaster), served by lesser gods (usually the persian pantheon) and 'spirits of light', angels. they were fighting an eternal war against evil, which was caused by the Angra Mainyu, Ahriman. and the Angra Mainyu had it's own set of evil gods and servents.

many of the Christian sects which sat on the council of Nicea and established a base doctrine for the early Church had adopted the Zoroastrian concepts of the eternal struggle against evil, one singular leader of evil, and the concept of divine spirits in service of both into the christian popular faith.

so when your stating up angels, your only tangetally connecting to G_D and jesus...unless your specifically stating up the ones mentioned in revelations, at which point your back to the "if these guys show up, your campaign and campaign setting is done" problem.

[Zer0 Kay]

I refuse to have G-ds (including Yahweh , Yesua or Satan) statted in game as NPCs. Only their Angels,Demons & messengers will be , as well as their followers n' clergy.

But if they stat God, Jesus or Satan that is going too far??

I didn't take Lucy's post like that at all.

I think he just had the entirely appropriate reaction that PCs should not even approach being able to shoot holes in them and that that's just not how their stories work. It's all wheels within wheels within wheels with these damn Swis... I mean, late-Semitic dieties.

Thor, on the other hand, does have a history of brawling with humans and it's just theoretically possible that some brawler (with copious behind-the-scenes help from Loki) could fight him to a standstill and get some lunch coupons for Valhalla.

In that light the angels should be the same unstatable.

The angels, God and Christ all have a long history of visiting the Earth. Now they don't or rather since Penticost they haven't because they are continuously hear in all beleivers. God has even been known to wrestle one of his followers and Christ to play pranks on his close friends. Want the verses I'll give em to ya. All of them in a mortal form are completely defeatable. All of them are completely immortal.

[Zer0 Kay]

"Jesus" is a transliteration, occurring in a number of languages and based on the Latin Iesus, of the Greek Ἰησοῦς (Iēsoûs), itself a hellenization of the Hebrew יְהוֹשֻׁעַ (Yĕhōšuă‘, Joshua) or Hebrew-Aramaic יֵשׁוּעַ (Yēšûă‘),

On the subject of G-d's kid Josh, lemme take a second to absolutely and heartily endorse Lamb: The Gospel According to Biff, Christ's Childhood Pal by Christopher Moore. My religious parents stole my copy and passed it around at church, so I can't give any quotes, but suffice it to say that any book that has Jesu... sorry, Josh... getting his first kiss, touring Kali's fields in India, and learning kung fu and still pulls it back to Cavalry and makes it work...

It's a damn fine read.

That is funny. I LOVE alternate histories. Wait, wait is that "Kali's fields" like the "wheat boardered with lillies" in the song of Solomon?

[Zer0 Kay]

I refuse to have G-ds (including Yahweh , Yesua or Satan) statted in game as NPCs. Only their Angels,Demons & messengers will be , as well as their followers n' clergy.

But if they stat God, Jesus or Satan that is going too far??

I didn't take Lucy's post like that at all.

I think he just had the entirely appropriate reaction that PCs should not even approach being able to shoot holes in them and that that's just not how their stories work. It's all wheels within wheels within wheels with these damn Swis... I mean, late-Semitic dieties.

Thor, on the other hand, does have a history of brawling with humans and it's just theoretically possible that some brawler (with copious behind-the-scenes help from Loki) could fight him to a standstill and get some lunch coupons for Valhalla.

I find this funny. The abrahamic god is all powerful, enven though an army of guys with iron chariots were too much for him and some craft Babylonian carpenters nearly launched in invasion on heaven itself, yet Thor threw down with bad ads frost giants and he's the weaker of the two. Yahweh is at best a decent water/war god,(the flood was pretty impressive), im actually looking forward to starting him out. I'll probably make him a fairly tough AI with all warlock spells (all elements because he gets credit for just about every major weather event). Besides that I really don't see anything special about him. He just got really lucky with PR vIa the roman empire, then that got put on steroids by the British empire, and recently put on crack thanks to the American empire. It's only a matter of time for him to go the way of Zeus into mythology/fiction. Might as well get that started putting him on rifts earth and letting players shoot him full of holes. Or die trying

What guys with iron chariots? The ones that drowned in the sea? Do you mean Babylonian (more likely Summerian) masons in an invasion where he just knocked down their tinker set? Thor a god vs. non god frost giants or empowering David a youth to defeat a half angel half man "giant"? Hmm... yes Thor is the weaker of the two. Water and war?!?! Uh lets see, part the seas, control plagues of insect, slaughter all first born children, cause disease over a large area, make the sky fall, make the sun eclipse, create a giant pillar of flame by night and cloud by day. Make the most fortified walls collapse, ressurection. Create Earth, Water, Fire and Air. Create all life. Create LIGHT. Create the universe. Yup that is just war and water ... What does thor do call down lightning and grow oaks? If your going to accept all of Thor's realm of control which is a LONG list, then you must also do the same for YHWH and remember that YHWY, Joshua/Jesus and The Holy Spirit are all capable of the same.

[Zer0 Kay]

I refuse to have G-ds (including Yahweh , Yesua or Satan) statted in game as NPCs. Only their Angels,Demons & messengers will be , as well as their followers n' clergy.

But Thor who is still worshipped as well as various goddesses that are worshipped by Wiccans an entire Pantheon worshipped by the Hindu the oldest organized religion.

But if they stat God, Jesus or Satan that is going too far??

Thor and the other Norse gods are specifically said to be mortal (they have to eat special food to extend their lives, and they'll all die in raganarok), and have a mythological tradition of coming to our world and slumming about, either in disguise or in full on 'thor-ness' kicking ass.
The Hindu pantheon is also semi-mortal, in that by their own traditions the gods can die, albeit IIRC they're not as fatalistic about it as the norse were. and they also have a tradition of their gods coming to our world, in hidden or obvious form, with the Avatar tradition.
on the otherhand christianity doesn't have such traditions. G_D and 'Jesus the son' are all held to be not only immortal, but non-harmable. they also don't exist on our plane of existance, and don't ever show up there. there is one specific time when both will appear in our existance, on Judgement day when they show up, wipe out all evil, and reshape the world into an eternal paradise where we spend the rest of eternity in their presence singing praises.
so it basically boils down to "why stat out what you'll never meet?"
religiously speaking, i can walk outside today and could meet thor. i could meet kali. and after said meeting i can go about my day as otherwise normal. on the otherhand, if i go out today and G_D or jesus shows up, well, that means judgement day ahs come, i'm gonna get judged on my sins, and the entire world will change completely.
lets replace me with my character in a RPG. if Thor or kali show up? cool, neat encounter. if G_D or jesus shows up? games over, the entire gameworld has been replaced by sunshine and clouds and fluffy kittens. no more evil to fight, no more adventures, just my character in an eternal paradise singing songs.
Angels? maybe, but the bible barely supports angels. they're missing entirely from the old testiment, and in the new testement they only really show up in revelations.. which was written fairly recently compared to the rest.
the concept of Angels (and of Satan, the head of evil) was an element of popular faith christianity got from the Zoroastrians of persia, where some of the earlier christian sects hid out to avoid persecution. zoroastrians beleived in a god of good (the Ahura mazda, Zoroaster), served by lesser gods (usually the persian pantheon) and 'spirits of light', angels. they were fighting an eternal war against evil, which was caused by the Angra Mainyu, Ahriman. and the Angra Mainyu had it's own set of evil gods and servents.

many of the Christian sects which sat on the council of Nicea and established a base doctrine for the early Church had adopted the Zoroastrian concepts of the eternal struggle against evil, one singular leader of evil, and the concept of divine spirits in service of both into the christian popular faith.

so when your stating up angels, your only tangetally connecting to G_D and jesus...unless your specifically stating up the ones mentioned in revelations, at which point your back to the "if these guys show up, your campaign and campaign setting is done" problem.

Bibles are all over the OT they're called Mal'ekh YHWH do you need verses that show you or are you refering to Angels as a specific class of spirit being rather than a generalization as most cultures use to refer to all spirit beings that haven't fallen and that aren't one of the trinity?

You can't say that none of them will ever encounter God because any believer has God living inside him.

Why do so many of you refuse to use the word God? Remember that HIS name is not God or GOD or god. That is but a title and what so many people replace his name with.

[Misfit KotLD]

And the LORD was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron. - Judges 1:18-20

How's this one?

[glitterboy2098]

Bibles are all over the OT they're called Mal'ekh YHWH do you need verses that show you or are you refering to Angels as a specific class of spirit being rather than a generalization as most cultures use to refer to all spirit beings that haven't fallen and that aren't one of the trinity?

the Mal'ekh were messengers, but they're not really 'angels' in the sense that modern christianity uses. the messengers used by G_D could be either mortal or divine, and the few divine examples are generally in the form of visions or similar. there are a number of indeterminant examples in which the messengers are attributed to G_D but don't specify as to whether the messengers are deific or just mortals empowered by G_D with the message.

You can't say that none of them will ever encounter God because any believer has God living inside him.

'encounter' as in 'shows up on our world where you can see and talk to him'. even in the old testiment G_D didn't interact direct with his followers. he always did it through other things. the burning bush, storms, disembodied voices in a person's head, etc.

and the idea of 'god living inside his beleivers' is not a common ideological element across christianity. the more common is a doctrine of beleif in god and the message.. god is not seen as something found within the beleiver so much as the person/thing in which the beleiver places trust.

Why do so many of you refuse to use the word God? Remember that HIS name is not God or GOD or god. That is but a title and what so many people replace his name with.

to be repectful of Hebrew belief..and it helps distinguish G_D from the 'gods' of the various pantheisitc beleifs.

[Killer Cyborg]

On the subject of G-d's kid Josh, lemme take a second to absolutely and heartily endorse Lamb: The Gospel According to Biff, Christ's Childhood Pal by Christopher Moore. My religious parents stole my copy and passed it around at church, so I can't give any quotes, but suffice it to say that any book that has Jesu... sorry, Josh... getting his first kiss, touring Kali's fields in India, and learning kung fu and still pulls it back to Cavalry and makes it work...

It's a damn fine read.

Pretty much anything that Moore has written is superb, from Bloodsucking Fiends: A Love Story to Island of the Sequined Love Nun or The Lust Lizard of Melancholy Cove, but Lamb is a notch above even the rest of his works.
I highly recommend them to everybody.

My edition of Lamb has a faux-leather binding, so it looks like a Bible at first glance.

[zaccheus]

I refuse to have G-ds (including Yahweh , Yesua or Satan) statted in game as NPCs. Only their Angels,Demons & messengers will be , as well as their followers n' clergy.

But if they stat God, Jesus or Satan that is going too far??

I didn't take Lucy's post like that at all.

I think he just had the entirely appropriate reaction that PCs should not even approach being able to shoot holes in them and that that's just not how their stories work. It's all wheels within wheels within wheels with these damn Swis... I mean, late-Semitic dieties.

Thor, on the other hand, does have a history of brawling with humans and it's just theoretically possible that some brawler (with copious behind-the-scenes help from Loki) could fight him to a standstill and get some lunch coupons for Valhalla.

I find this funny. The abrahamic god is all powerful, enven though an army of guys with iron chariots were too much for him and some craft Babylonian carpenters nearly launched in invasion on heaven itself, yet Thor threw down with bad ads frost giants and he's the weaker of the two. Yahweh is at best a decent water/war god,(the flood was pretty impressive), im actually looking forward to starting him out. I'll probably make him a fairly tough AI with all warlock spells (all elements because he gets credit for just about every major weather event). Besides that I really don't see anything special about him. He just got really lucky with PR vIa the roman empire, then that got put on steroids by the British empire, and recently put on crack thanks to the American empire. It's only a matter of time for him to go the way of Zeus into mythology/fiction. Might as well get that started putting him on rifts earth and letting players shoot him full of holes. Or die trying

What guys with iron chariots? The ones that drowned in the sea? Do you mean Babylonian (more likely Summerian) masons in an invasion where he just knocked down their tinker set? Thor a god vs. non god frost giants or empowering David a youth to defeat a half angel half man "giant"? Hmm... yes Thor is the weaker of the two. Water and war?!?! Uh lets see, part the seas, control plagues of insect, slaughter all first born children, cause disease over a large area, make the sky fall, make the sun eclipse, create a giant pillar of flame by night and cloud by day. Make the most fortified walls collapse, ressurection. Create Earth, Water, Fire and Air. Create all life. Create LIGHT. Create the universe. Yup that is just war and water ... What does thor do call down lightning and grow oaks? If your going to accept all of Thor's realm of control which is a LONG list, then you must also do the same for YHWH and remember that YHWY, Joshua/Jesus and The Holy Spirit are all capable of the same.

Those are all great examples, and sure yaweh did some cool stuff, but all gods in all mythology did some cool stuff. That really was my point. I don't see any reason why yahweh should get any special treatment. For example a lot of god's created the earth, almost all of them are in Pantheon's of the universe, and there is even a mesopotamian god in the stories about Gilgamesh who caused the great fluid, and had some guy build an ark and save all the animals before Yahweh did, so yahweh is really just second best as far as that's concerned. Sure anyone can have him as an almighty, mysterious figure in their Rifts world if they want, but personnally I don't think he's anymore impressive than Isis, or Siva, or any other mythological figure so I think it's a great idea to have him in a game and maybe even have a campaign where the characters are in a Job like situation but instead of bending their knee's pull out their boom guns and give old Yahweh a piece of his own medicine. Oh and on a side note I brought up the tower of babylon just because to me a god who's afraid of a bunch of guys breaking into heaven by making a big tower means he's a god that doesn't even realize his kingdom of heaven doesn't actually exist high up in the sky where a tower may reach it, so much for omniscience.

Yahweh depicted as a war god:
Numbers 14:42-43
42 Do not go up, because the Lord is not with you. You will be defeated by your enemies,
43 for the Amalekites and Canaanites will face you there. Because you have turned away from the Lord, he will not be with you and you will fall by the sword
Deuteronomy 20:1-4
1 When you go to war against your enemies and see horses and chariots and an army greater than yours, do not be afraid of them, because the Lord your God, who brought you up out of Egypt, will be with you.
2 When you are about to go into battle, the priest shall come forward and address the army.
3 He shall say: “Hear, Israel: Today you are going into battle against your enemies. Do not be fainthearted or afraid; do not be terrified or give way to panic before them.
4 For the Lord your God is the one who goes with you to fight for you against your enemies to give you victory

Oh the guys with iron chariots that were just too much for Yahweh:
King James Version
Judges 1:19
And the LORD was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the
inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron.

There is an entire website called iron chariots that has all sorts of gems like this.

Sorry about my spelling, poor grammar and overall poor writing, I'm pretty sleepy and always seem to be writing my posts from my phone.

[llywelyn]

I find this funny. The abrahamic god is all powerful, enven though an army of guys with iron chariots were too much for him and some craft Babylonian carpenters nearly launched in invasion on heaven itself, yet Thor threw down with bad ads frost giants and he's the weaker of the two.

Considering that the frost giants aren't real, I don't see what that proves, even if you're intentionally misreading the text to ignore the whole G-d-and-the-Jews-have-a-very-love/hate-relationship-going-on bit.

I know it's fun to pick the phrasing apart, but the chariots of iron thing is defective on the face of it. There's no way that the scribes or priests would have meant that going in, & defective grammar in an English translation really doesn't point out a failure on the Almighty's part. His fear of Adam getting his hands on the fruit of the tree of immortality, on the other hand...

Yahweh is at best a decent water/war god,(the flood was pretty impressive), im actually looking forward to starting him out.

I suppose it is an exercise of a sort to go through and stat precisely what each is credited with. Kind of ignoring the plagues, pillar of fire, ark, mind control, &c., though, not to mention the Creation.

He just got really lucky with PR vIa the roman empire,

That was Paul. Neither G-d nor Jesus had much to do with it. Muhammad worked out pretty well for Him, though. Even got returned to top billing.

[Misfit KotLD]

I think he meant Constantine with the Roman Empire reference.

I'd also place the Bible on Herodotus' level for historical accuracy. Sure, it's got a lot of good material in it, but it has a lot of fantastical elements with as much support as the frost giants.

[llywelyn]

the Mal'ekh were messengers, but they're not really 'angels' in the sense that modern christianity uses.

Aside from the putti, sure they are and they're all over the place. You're right that the modern conception of Satan owes a lot to Zoroastrianism, but you're overstating your case when you start ignoring the guys chillaxing outside Eden, playing chutes and ladders, and annunciating the Virgin Birth. Sodom got destroyed more for violating guest relationships than homosexuality, but angels were still involved and even the fallen angels are covered by those guys impregnating the humans before the flood.

even in the old testiment G_D didn't interact direct with his followers. he always did it through other things.

I recall him showing his backside to Moses and that causing his head to glow. Might be mixing it up with the Islamic myths though.

Jesus was pretty obviously killable, but that was only in His previous incarnation.

Why do so many of you refuse to use the word God?

Doood. Asked and answered. Scroll up.

[llywelyn]

I think he meant Constantine with the Roman Empire reference.

I know he did.

If it wasn't clear: Jesus's message is one of utterly impossible goodness - not only to fulfill the terms of the law but live and behave within it to the point where bad thoughts do not even cross one's mind. It was a Jewish reform of Jewish practices that explicitly did not seek to overturn the existing divine laws. Paul turned the entire message inside out: "Of course that's impossible. His point was that you can't possibly live up to that & therefore must simply ask forgiveness. And y'know what? Given that, don't worry about the circumcision or pork stuff. He'll totally understand". That's the message the Romans and gentiles ate up (& that Peter and the Desposyni were none too pleased with) and it didn't have very much to do with what the dieties involved had actually said.

edit: Yes, I understand that is not the Orthodox version of the story, but we're all just sharing our viewpoints here.

[llywelyn]

I don't see any reason why yahweh should get any special treatment.

Take a second to think why he might.

I'm all for science and don't mind your disbelief, but if you don't get why he's more impressive than Isis or Siva, try rereading Job. I'm pretty sure it was willful, but you did miss the point the first time through if you think boom guns are going to change anything...

[Misfit KotLD]

I won't go with Paul being the sole source of some items. The Gospels show in numerous places the various stages of early Christianity, from Jewish sect to separate religion with non-Jews included.

*Edit* And what of us who have read Job and came away unimpressed?
*Edit*Edit* I think we've gone a bit far afield of the original topic, though I'm up to discuss theology elsewhere.

[zaccheus]

I think he meant Constantine with the Roman Empire reference.

I'd also place the Bible on Herodotus' level for historical accuracy. Sure, it's got a lot of good material in it, but it has a lot of fantastical elements with as much support as the frost giants.

Bingo. Thanks for making sense of my rambling in a nice succinct way

[zaccheus]

I don't see any reason why yahweh should get any special treatment.

Take a second to think why he might.

I'm all for science and don't mind your disbelief, but if you don't get why he's more impressive than Isis or Siva, try rereading Job. I'm pretty sure it was willful, but you did miss the point the first time through if you think boom guns are going to change anything...

Maybe I missed some stuff, but I doubt you know that much about Siva either. Ive read the bagdevita (I know it's misspelled) rg Veda and several sections of the Upanishads. The Hindu gods have done as imPressive if not more so acts in their books as well. What my intention is and relating this to the original post if you don't have a bias for Yahweh and Jesus because you think they are real but all other gods are fake, then they all are pretty much equally impressive. Jesus for instance resurrected himself once, Krishna on the other hand (I may be confusing him for Vishnu, it's been a while since I study religion, and just for meaningless credentials I went to catholic seminary for two years and did a lot of comparitive religion, but I'm a veterinarian now so all that mythology runs together now so again sorry if I'm not super accurate about quoting one mythology or other) resurrected himself possibly millions of times, which seems a tad bit more impressive therefore Jesus shouldn't be more powerful than Krishna. And again Yahweh does get credit for a lot of natural disasters so right now I plan on making him an AI with mastery of all 4 types of elemental magic That's seems more than impressive enough. Oh and Jesus will most likely be a true atlantean undead slayer. Pretty much every power he has is represented by a tattoo.

Again apologies for typos and whatnot on my phone

[Misfit KotLD]

I don't see any reason why yahweh should get any special treatment.

Take a second to think why he might.

I'm all for science and don't mind your disbelief, but if you don't get why he's more impressive than Isis or Siva, try rereading Job. I'm pretty sure it was willful, but you did miss the point the first time through if you think boom guns are going to change anything...

Maybe I missed some stuff, but I doubt you know that much about Siva either. Ive read the bagdevita (I know it's misspelled) rg Veda and several sections of the Upanishads. The Hindu gods have done as imPressive if not more so acts in their books as well. What my intention is and relating this to the original post if you don't have a bias for Yahweh and Jesus because you think they are real but all other gods are fake, then they all are pretty much equally impressive. Jesus for instance resurrected himself once, Krishna on the other hand (I may be confusing him for Vishnu, it's been a while since I study religion, and just for meaningless credentials I went to catholic seminary for two years and did a lot of comparitive religion, but I'm a veterinarian now so all that mythology runs together now so again sorry if I'm not super accurate about quoting one mythology or other) resurrected himself possibly millions of times, which seems a tad bit more impressive therefore Jesus shouldn't be more powerful than Krishna. And again Yahweh does get credit for a lot of natural disasters so right now I plan on making him an AI with mastery of all 4 types of elemental magic That's seems more than impressive enough. Oh and Jesus will most likely be a true atlantean undead slayer. Pretty much every power he has is represented by a tattoo.

Again apologies for typos and whatnot on my phone

I am particularly partial to Siva's Linga from the Siva Purana. Any other gods with a member capable of destroying the multiverse without said deity's presence? Siva does.

[llywelyn]

Maybe I missed some stuff, but I doubt you know that much about Siva either.

I'm not sure where the disrespect came from, but if it helps any, you're wrong about that too.

Ive read the bagdevita (I know it's misspelled) rg Veda and several sections of the Upanishads.

Then you should know that the Hindu deities are only manifestations, masks, or facets of the limitless One. Yhwh is that one. It's like comparing your fingernail or high school yearbook photo with you.*

The Abrahamic G-d's more impressive (or boring, as your tastes go) on His own merits, unless you're being reductive and focusing only on what's left of the early Sumerian and Canaanite traditions. Which, sure, works and is more approachable from a RPG perspective. But it's disingenuous to claim you don't grok the difference if you actually did read the Gita or Upanishads.

I do kinda like the idea of a tatted-up Jesus, though. Go ahead and post what you came up with if you run a scenario.

Any other gods with a member capable of destroying the multiverse without said deity's presence? Siva does.

Osiris would, if he hadn't lost his in a fishing accident.


*In your defense, it does get murky, since the yoga bhakti essentially promises eternal rewards to the extent its practitioners blow smoke up their own deities' posteriors without any regard to their own traditions, canon, or plausibility - essentially, using their facet and only their facet as a means to see the totality. Then again, at the point you start listening to them (& they don't even listen to each other), you simply have another unstattable monotheistic Lord, not a reason to drop Yhwh down a peg.

[Misfit KotLD]

Maybe I missed some stuff, but I doubt you know that much about Siva either.

I'm not sure where the disrespect came from, but if it helps any, you're wrong about that too.

Ive read the bagdevita (I know it's misspelled) rg Veda and several sections of the Upanishads.

Then you should know that the Hindu deities are only manifestations, masks, or facets of the limitless One. Yhwh is that one. It's like comparing your fingernail or high school yearbook photo with you.

[/quote]Wait, what? In what main line theological tradition is this even remotely accepted? I've seen Jesus being an avatar of Krishna, but that's not what you're presenting at all?

Any other gods with a member capable of destroying the multiverse without said deity's presence? Siva does.

Osiris would, if he hadn't lost his in a fishing accident.

Got anything to back that up?

[glitterboy2098]

Any other gods with a member capable of destroying the multiverse without said deity's presence? Siva does.

Osiris would, if he hadn't lost his in a fishing accident.

very bad pun there...

[Vrykolas2k]

I'm courious because all the other gods in other religions do sooooooo...

As much as Allah, Buddha, and others do.
As far as I know most of the gods that exist in rifts earth and from Myth, like Norse and Greek gods.
I do not recall seeing any of the current major religions written up. I would assume this was done on purpose to not offend people.
So to answer your question .... As much as they do in the real world (open to individual beliefs), if you want stats you will have to make your own.

What would say their stats are?
The few times I've used deities I don't bother with stats, they pull the Picard "Make it so!" routine; they say it, it happens. Even in the Bible God works thru "other" means, the burning bush, a voice from the heavens, etc. He (She/it, depending upon personal preference) never appears directly.
I think that detailing various religious/"magical" relics from European history would be neat! I have an old D&D supplement that details many old relics of myth and legend. So long as the direct issue of G_d is avioded it should be cool.

I'd just use a Vampire Intelligence and a Master Vampire.

[zaccheus]

Maybe I missed some stuff, but I doubt you know that much about Siva either.

I'm not sure where the disrespect came from, but if it helps any, you're wrong about that too.

I' sorry for being disrespectful. That wasn't my intention at all and I never suspected it was your either. I suppose I assumed ignorance, but I personally don't think it's disrespectful to point out someone's ignorance. Again sorry for any disrespect.

Now this is getting fun O I can't wait to Dive in.

Then you should know that the Hindu deities are only manifestations, masks, or facets of the limitless One. Yhwh is that one. It's like comparing your fingernail or high school yearbook photo with you.*

I'm not sure what you mean by this. It's grossly ignorant, at least by all the Hindu faith's I've encountered (my wife was Hindu (born in india) and her entire family is Hindu and we've had some very fun conversations about theology). What I think you are referring to is the Brahman, which is the Whole of Everything, ie the entire universe and everything in it, including the gods, so, yes, this would include Vishnu, Siva and all the others. Now unless you are saying Yhwh is the entire universe, which I don't think you are, then I'd like to see the biblical passages that state that. Because if he is the entire universe, then I am god, and god is me, both of those statements I can say are absolutely false, I am not God, he is most certianly seperate from me if I even believed he exists, otherwise it would be impossible for me to sin (rebel against god) because a part of a whole cannot rebel against the whole, that would be like saying my liver is rebeling against me because I got hepatitis, that just makes no sense. Now, if you are referring to the Brahman, and you agree god isn't the entirety of everything, then he too is a part of a whole, maybe a bigger part depending on your belief but still part of all things added together thus making him a part of the Brahman just like Vishnu, so again I see no reason to give him special treatment, when we are taking things from a Hindu perspective. Now if you are saying Yahweh exist out side of the universe, and there fore outside of the Brahman, basically you are arguing he exists out side of the Whole of Everything, ie reality and simply isn't real. That's okay, but is not a very interesting thing to have in a roleplaying game. I guess you could have Yahweh cults, and that could be fun, but I like having dieties in my games.

Hmm I hope you see what I'm saying. If you remove any special bias for the bible then there is no reason why Yahweh shouldn't be used in Rifts in the exact same ways as gods of other pantheons, therefore he should get stats too becuase he's not really all that impressive. Just because he's described as all powerful, doesn't mean he should be on Rifts earth, I can back that with Rifts cannon. Brahma (not Brahman) has stats in Pantheons of the megaverse. In several hindu texts, Brahma is described as being omnipotent, as being the creator of both good and evil, so why should he get stat's but Yahweh doesn't?

The Abrahamic G-d's more impressive (or boring, as your tastes go) on His own merits, unless you're being reductive and focusing only on what's left of the early Sumerian and Canaanite traditions. Which, sure, works and is more approachable from a RPG perspective. But it's disingenuous to claim you don't grok the difference if you actually did read the Gita or Upanishads.

Again, I'm not really sure what you mean, by his own merits. Do you mean because the bible describes him as omnipotent, omnipresent etc? Honestly I'm not even sure it does, I'm not saying it doesn't, but I can't remember where it does. The Bible does describe some really cool powers he has, and sure maybe I'm being reductive, but there are several stories in the bible where God's omniscience seems very doubtful (ie tower of babel like I said before), or his omnipotence seems a bit less than omnipotent (ie not being able to grant a win to the army he supports against an army with iron chariots, again stated before), and especially his omnipresence, (ie he didn't seem to know that Adam and Eve were hiding after they ate the fruit). And all this I'm just talking about clear contradictions to those omni powers just in the old testament. Jesus, who is supposed to be almight too, but different, but the same....is only as powerful as about a level 7 ley line walker, to me, that's a far cry from omnipotent. Sure I'm cherry picking my examples, but these aren't the only ones that demonstrate Yaweh and his pantheon are no more impressive than gods of anyother mythology, and sure I will admit there are examples that make it so he seems all mighty and therefore above stats, but there are plenty of examples that present Zeus, Brahma, maybe even Odin and Osiris as being equally all mighty (Odin and osiris I'm not sure about, but the first two there are definately texts representing those gods as all might and above having stats).

[Misfit KotLD]

...essentially promises eternal rewards to the extent its practitioners blow smoke up their own deities' posteriors without any regard to their own traditions, canon, or plausibility...

Ok, I'm going to take exception to this characterization here. For one, Hinduism as a whole is a latecomer. What we know as Hinduism was an amalgamation of virtually every tribal sect, cult, and regional religion in India into one of two categories under British Rule: Christianity and not-Christianity. So while Hinduism contains some of the oldest extant texts, they were incorporated late and by external influence. I will also note no religion is above ignoring its own traditions in flagrant manners and this phenomenon occurs in Christianity often. One could argue your own Pauline example fits here, and I know Christians not impressed with his works.

My point in all this is, you are giving preferential treatment to one theology based on real-world biases when the game setting while we are giving equal credence to all religions (which makes for a giant mess, but have you looked at the setting holistically? It's a jigsaw puzzle with pieces from several dozen boxes).

Lastly, if your group's enjoying the game, you are doing it right.

[Akashic Soldier]

Maybe I missed some stuff, but I doubt you know that much about Siva either.

I'm not sure where the disrespect came from, but if it helps any, you're wrong about that too.

I' sorry for being disrespectful. That wasn't my intention at all and I never suspected it was your either. I suppose I assumed ignorance, but I personally don't think it's disrespectful to point out someone's ignorance. Again sorry for any disrespect.

Now this is getting fun O I can't wait to Dive in.

Then you should know that the Hindu deities are only manifestations, masks, or facets of the limitless One. Yhwh is that one. It's like comparing your fingernail or high school yearbook photo with you.*

I'm not sure what you mean by this. It's grossly ignorant, at least by all the Hindu faith's I've encountered (my wife was Hindu (born in india) and her entire family is Hindu and we've had some very fun conversations about theology). What I think you are referring to is the Brahman, which is the Whole of Everything, ie the entire universe and everything in it, including the gods, so, yes, this would include Vishnu, Siva and all the others. Now unless you are saying Yhwh is the entire universe, which I don't think you are, then I'd like to see the biblical passages that state that. Because if he is the entire universe, then I am god, and god is me, both of those statements I can say are absolutely false, I am not God, he is most certianly seperate from me if I even believed he exists, otherwise it would be impossible for me to sin (rebel against god) because a part of a whole cannot rebel against the whole, that would be like saying my liver is rebeling against me because I got hepatitis, that just makes no sense. Now, if you are referring to the Brahman, and you agree god isn't the entirety of everything, then he too is a part of a whole, maybe a bigger part depending on your belief but still part of all things added together thus making him a part of the Brahman just like Vishnu, so again I see no reason to give him special treatment, when we are taking things from a Hindu perspective. Now if you are saying Yahweh exist out side of the universe, and there fore outside of the Brahman, basically you are arguing he exists out side of the Whole of Everything, ie reality and simply isn't real. That's okay, but is not a very interesting thing to have in a roleplaying game. I guess you could have Yahweh cults, and that could be fun, but I like having dieties in my games.

Hmm I hope you see what I'm saying. If you remove any special bias for the bible then there is no reason why Yahweh shouldn't be used in Rifts in the exact same ways as gods of other pantheons, therefore he should get stats too becuase he's not really all that impressive. Just because he's described as all powerful, doesn't mean he should be on Rifts earth, I can back that with Rifts cannon. Brahma (not Brahman) has stats in Pantheons of the megaverse. In several hindu texts, Brahma is described as being omnipotent, as being the creator of both good and evil, so why should he get stat's but Yahweh doesn't?

The Abrahamic G-d's more impressive (or boring, as your tastes go) on His own merits, unless you're being reductive and focusing only on what's left of the early Sumerian and Canaanite traditions. Which, sure, works and is more approachable from a RPG perspective. But it's disingenuous to claim you don't grok the difference if you actually did read the Gita or Upanishads.

Again, I'm not really sure what you mean, by his own merits. Do you mean because the bible describes him as omnipotent, omnipresent etc? Honestly I'm not even sure it does, I'm not saying it doesn't, but I can't remember where it does. The Bible does describe some really cool powers he has, and sure maybe I'm being reductive, but there are several stories in the bible where God's omniscience seems very doubtful (ie tower of babel like I said before), or his omnipotence seems a bit less than omnipotent (ie not being able to grant a win to the army he supports against an army with iron chariots, again stated before), and especially his omnipresence, (ie he didn't seem to know that Adam and Eve were hiding after they ate the fruit). And all this I'm just talking about clear contradictions to those omni powers just in the old testament. Jesus, who is supposed to be almight too, but different, but the same....is only as powerful as about a level 7 ley line walker, to me, that's a far cry from omnipotent. Sure I'm cherry picking my examples, but these aren't the only ones that demonstrate Yaweh and his pantheon are no more impressive than gods of anyother mythology, and sure I will admit there are examples that make it so he seems all mighty and therefore above stats, but there are plenty of examples that present Zeus, Brahma, maybe even Odin and Osiris as being equally all mighty (Odin and osiris I'm not sure about, but the first two there are definately texts representing those gods as all might and above having stats).

I'm literally going right to bed so I cannot reply to this but yes, God is the universe, well, everything that is eternal is of God. I will dig you up some verses tomorrow bro. But yes the big Y is the Brahman except instead of appearing as a combined consciousness that encompasses all aspects of life he is an all knowing all powerful entity that is the only eternal force in the universe. Everything not of God is less than him and bound in entropy to rot, die, decay and fall away into nothing. Best way I can sum it up in twenty seconds.

As for Gods omnipotence it is safe to say that when he descended to Eden he lowered himself to a form that wouldnt turn them to ash. That is entirely speculation mind you but if you read his encounter with Moses you will find references to what would happen should someone look upon the true form of God. In the original writing it says that when he is in the garden he walked as a man, one of the words when translated means "you can hear the leaves beneath their feet" but during translation it was simplified because it didnt seem necessary. However it kind of made things a bit vague. I assume (and im passing out here so i am so sorry if this seems more jumped) that he had "taken human form" or close enough to it.

In Christian Theology there is GOD and SIN. God is Eternal and Everlasting Life and Sin are things in opposition to the nature of God, things that are of the world and fleeting or will lead to spiritual death.

As for why is God so impressive?

Well, Jesus has reached more lives and is responsible (if even indirectly if you dont believe in him) than any other person in the history of mankind. His actions continue to drive people to support and feed the needy more than 2000 years after his death. Christianity gives more to the downtrodden than any other faith on planet (something people are always quick to overlook) and though I am sure someone will dispute it the most powerful nations on Earth are built on the values of Christ. Like it or not, as much as people will dispute it, America and Americans have Christian values. Even those who are atheists have a Christian sense of ethics for what is right or wrong generally.

Yeah i am burnt out thats me sorry if this is a mess but yeah in short man um... God = big. He is literally infinite so by that definition he is even greater than Brahman who is all things in harmony. Not saying that to be like "oh my God is better than yours as I love Hinduism and it was my faith of choice" it is just after much soul searching and..

ah you can read my poist ages ago

someone want to quote my old post so he can re-read it?

thanx

*dfaceplant*

[zaccheus]

I'm literally going right to bed so I cannot reply to this but yes, God is the universe, well, everything that is eternal is of God. I will dig you up some verses tomorrow bro. But yes the big Y is the Brahman except instead of appearing as a combined consciousness that encompasses all aspects of life he is an all knowing all powerful entity that is the only eternal force in the universe. Everything not of God is less than him and bound in entropy to rot, die, decay and fall away into nothing. Best way I can sum it up in twenty seconds.

This is where God breaks down, at least if I'm understanding what you're saying, so let's compare the two things you stated...I'll grant that you are tired and maybe you are just misspeaking.

In Christian Theology there is GOD and SIN. God is Eternal and Everlasting Life and Sin are things in opposition to the nature of God, things that are of the world and fleeting or will lead to spiritual death.

These things are directly contradictory. If god is Brahman, then he is also Sin, Brahman is Everything, with a capital E, therefore God would also have to be Everything. The problem is God also has a personality and very strict limitations depending on what part of the bible you are reading. You can't be everything and not everything at the sametime. At least not in my mind. In my mind if you are everything and not everything then you are basically nothing. So another way of stating it is that if Sin isn't God, then either God isn't Everything, or Sin simply isn't real, if sin isn't real Jesus was a pointless excercise and we all go to heaven, in fact if sin isn't real, there really isn't any need at all for earth, in biblical terms at least, since we should all simply be in heaven.

I realize that really all this means is that Yahweh simply doesn't fit well into the Hindu pantheon, which I agree with and that the Hindu pantheon doesn't really fit in with the Christian pantheon.

As far as bible verses regarding all the Omni- powers of God, I want to clarify just a little bit. I don't mean verses where God states he is those things, or someone states he is those things, like I said earlier, it's easy to find statements like that in many texts about all sorts of dieties. I'm looking more for a passage that demonstrates it, I'm not really sure there are any. Sure there are a lot of passages where he shows off some fairly mediocre powers for a Deity, but nothing were for example he clearly is everywhere at once, or everything at once, or can do absolutely anything, in fact he couldn't even forgive the entirety of all his worshippers without first sacrificing himself/his son first. Or, for another example, why bother with the flood, why not simply change the minds of all the sinners, or maybe just blink the bad ones out of existance, why make innocent babies drown, and destroy millions of animals that have nothing to do with the sins of man.

Hmm maybe I can clarify. All the things Yahweh/Jesus/Holy spirit can do, at least all the things itemized in the bible, are all things I can easily imagine, and likely are things a bronze aged author could also imagine, he just doesn't do anything that really surprises me (impresses me) for someone who's supposed to be all Omni'ed up. In fact, sort of my original thesis, nothing he's credited for is really all that different then the things credited to Zeus, or Thor, or Brahma, so I feel (and especially since crosses do have magical powers in rifts, therefore Jesus in some since or other must exist in the rifts megaverse) it makes perfect sense for God to get the same treatment that Zeus, Thor, Brahma etc get (I'm not saying they are treated bad, that's not what I mean) because they are all at least in the same ball park when it comes to their powers, maybe Yahweh get's a few more, but all in all fairly comparable.

I just want to reiterate, I'm not trying to insult anyones faith, or disrespect anyone at all. My point is that if you don't believe in God, or even if you do, it's not too terribly big a stretch to make him on par with the beings in Pantheons so I am not only all for it, I actually think it should be promoted.

[Akashic Soldier]

I've been advised not to continue this conversation because it could get me banned but I will risk it to say a couple of the following things because I honestly do not mean it out of maliciousness.

You can't be everything and not everything at the sametime. At least not in my mind. In my mind if you are everything and not everything then you are basically nothing. So another way of stating it is that if Sin isn't God, then either God isn't Everything, or Sin simply isn't real, if sin isn't real Jesus was a pointless excercise and we all go to heaven, in fact if sin isn't real, there really isn't any need at all for earth, in biblical terms at least, since we should all simply be in heaven.

This is because you are blinded by preconception and thinking about this from an establish perspective where you have absolute rules of reality that govern your perspective and understanding of the universe. Its not a bad thing or an attack, but it is a reason that you are having a hard time grasping the concept. This is simplifying things but think of God like Electricity. You can have a lightning bolt that is three times hotter than the surface of the sun or a tiny static shock -- both are still electricity.

The Brahman is the ultimate essence of the material (The Kaiper, the fundament, this world we live within and space as it spans ever forward into infinity). It is the nature of existence and exists as a moral compass within each of us, which at first glance would put it on par with the Christian God. Both claim to be infinite and it common tradition we could easily say they are mutually exclusive to one another. But then we wouldn't be honest about everything. The fact is, well as close to fact as you can get with such matters, is that Christianity does include a deity of the fundement. It does include an entity of such vast spanning material power that is all the world. Its name is Satan (not Lucifer, not the morning star--Satan). I'm not saying that the Brahman is evil simply that it leads to a spiritual conclusion instead of a spiritual evolution. Its not the most politically correct thing for me to say but unfortunately that struggle is part of my faith. the Christian God is a God of War and change, he teaches us that we are spiritual soldiers faced with enemies who attempt to mislead us into finality. Lucifer is beautiful and deceptive and has given us belief systems we are comfortable with so that we can label truth and define our reality.

Yet, as even taught in Hinduism the Maya (to use a term you will be familiar with) is not the ultimate reality. The Christian God is a father and we are Children, he is educating us in what it means to be apart of his family. The thing you need understand that you have not considered is that according to Christianity this is one of seven (I believe its seven, maybe eight?) ultimate realities. When we learn the truths of this world we move to the next, than another and another.

As I listed in my post earlier in this thread (appropriately page 3 I believe?) sin is Spiritual Death, it is the trappings and bindings of Kali (to speak in terms you would familiar with) and they are deceptive. Unfortunately this life is no fair and therein lies the challenge and the struggle, there is no harmony, there is no absolute justice, truth has been broken and reconstructed over and over. The Tower of Babel has been exploited by Lucifer so the messenger is just as important as the messenger regardless of truth. We seek an ultimate justice in the finite when the ultimate justice must come not from man and all his bias but through the will of the one who can see and understand all things. Only in a mercy that encompasses each perspective of all people can there be an ultimate understanding. Eternity along the path to perfect cannot deviate from perfection. There are not two perfects for by the very definition of perfect there cannot be, not really. Think of life like a recipe and the choices and sacrifices we make are ingredients. We do not need to follow God's recipe, there are others along the path whom will tell you to add more sugar so it is sweeter or maybe more batter so its thicker but if you do not follow the recipe than you might end up with something that looks like the recipe but is not and when the teacher comes to move you through to the next room and pass or fail you... well... you get the idea.

Its a cheap answer and offensive I know but my personal experience and exploration of various faiths and religions have proven it to be true. I could easily fill a book with why and how various faiths are interconnected and why it is that the religion with one of the most controversial and judgmental reputation is right and I don't want to get banned so I wont but to say that Jesus was sent because men deceived because they allowed themselves to be deceived -- because they wanted to be deceived. Jesus came and taught us again that you can live a perfect life without sin, that you can be tempted but not succumb, that you can through God live eternal and live again! Jesus himself says that the things he has done will be exceeded by those who follow him. Though he is the son of God he comes to us as a servant and example of what we should be to one another. So we could make the hard choices, so we had a positive role model and guidance. God does not want us to perish he wants us to be everlasting and eternal and join him in his family and in eternity though we have free will and we can choose to burn both ends of the candle. We can SELECT to renounce God or choose to walk another path. That was his Gift to us that we one day might be more like him as a son might be more like his father.

It does not seem fair (from our limited perspective it cannot) but as you broaden your understanding of the world of how these cultures and teachings make people interact and shape society you will see should you seek and search for truth and not assertion that the internal journey to Nivana or spiritual perfection cannot be achieved by denying the world around you or others. It is in our nature to love and care and nurture. It is not a battle we fight within ourselves it is a battle we fight on all fronts. It is not a series of codes or a particular conduct or way of speaking to one another it is why we speak to one another, it is in intention, it is in understanding... it is in reaching and growing and carrying. That is life and living and... Blah. I'm ranting.

I hope that has helped answer some of your questions. Where the Brahma encompasses the entirety of reality it was the Creator God, the Father who laid it. All things are measured out along the length of one of Gods arms. All things that exist within our ever expanding infinity are but a fraction of his plan for the reality superseding our own and dimensions beyond our current levels of understanding. If you cast aside common tradition and seek TRUTH through the word and through the living spirit of Christ, if you long for understanding, live for mercy, and call out through Christ... through the path he lead to define the law that all men regardless of race or creed can stand together in equality and conquer all adversities through Grace than you will find that truth. You see how clear reality is. You will see the Brahman and all His plans as clear before you clear as day. Death and pestilence and the shattered skulls of infants and splattered brains though terrible will have within them an understanding and meaning and serenity. All the evil of the world will stand as if naked before you and the thousand lays of deception will pull back and all the world will seem as fools capering to their own song when one so much more beautiful than anything you could put words to plays out around them.

This is the nature of being human! This is the reality we choose to ignore or close our mind to because it frightens us!

Sure there are a lot of passages where he shows off some fairly mediocre powers for a Deity, but nothing were for example he clearly is everywhere at once, or everything at once, or can do absolutely anything, in fact he couldn't even forgive the entirety of all his worshippers without first sacrificing himself/his son first. Or, for another example, why bother with the flood, why not simply change the minds of all the sinners, or maybe just blink the bad ones out of existance, why make innocent babies drown, and destroy millions of animals that have nothing to do with the sins of man.

Good, you're asking all of the right questions! Why would he bother with the flood? Why wouldn't he change everyone's mind? Why did he kill so many innocent?
Now, are you going to let them be rhetorical questions that make you uncomfortable or bitter towards the idea of his existence or are you going to seek an actual answer?

Hmm maybe I can clarify. All the things Yahweh/Jesus/Holy spirit can do, at least all the things itemized in the bible, are all things I can easily imagine, and likely are things a bronze aged author could also imagine

Look at Genesis, write our each line of the creation of the Earth like a recipe then research the formation of a planet through its many stages of life and sit them side by side.

Okay, that is as much as I can say. I can't walk for someone else and I cannot learn for someone else and I won't try. Though if you take away one thing from this post... if anyone does... it is that you must look for the TRUTH and not what makes you comfortable. You must seek an understanding. Not tradition. Not preconception. Not what they tell you from behind the podium. Faith is a personal thing that is why it is so easy for person belief to blind us to reality or cause us to strike out against those who are opposed to our belief systems or structures. However through empathy and understanding there is wisdom. Judge not lest ye be judged. Do not let human foibles and generations of sin, vice, and the failing of flawed humans devalue the ultimate truth of the universe because YOU have the power to change the world and outlast the stars. All you have to do is recognize HOW and WHY and have courage enough to CHOOSE that path!

[Zer0 Kay]

But if they stat God, Jesus or Satan that is going too far??

I didn't take Lucy's post like that at all.

I think he just had the entirely appropriate reaction that PCs should not even approach being able to shoot holes in them and that that's just not how their stories work. It's all wheels within wheels within wheels with these damn Swis... I mean, late-Semitic dieties.

Thor, on the other hand, does have a history of brawling with humans and it's just theoretically possible that some brawler (with copious behind-the-scenes help from Loki) could fight him to a standstill and get some lunch coupons for Valhalla.

I find this funny. The abrahamic god is all powerful, enven though an army of guys with iron chariots were too much for him and some craft Babylonian carpenters nearly launched in invasion on heaven itself, yet Thor threw down with bad ads frost giants and he's the weaker of the two. Yahweh is at best a decent water/war god,(the flood was pretty impressive), im actually looking forward to starting him out. I'll probably make him a fairly tough AI with all warlock spells (all elements because he gets credit for just about every major weather event). Besides that I really don't see anything special about him. He just got really lucky with PR vIa the roman empire, then that got put on steroids by the British empire, and recently put on crack thanks to the American empire. It's only a matter of time for him to go the way of Zeus into mythology/fiction. Might as well get that started putting him on rifts earth and letting players shoot him full of holes. Or die trying

What guys with iron chariots? The ones that drowned in the sea? Do you mean Babylonian (more likely Summerian) masons in an invasion where he just knocked down their tinker set? Thor a god vs. non god frost giants or empowering David a youth to defeat a half angel half man "giant"? Hmm... yes Thor is the weaker of the two. Water and war?!?! Uh lets see, part the seas, control plagues of insect, slaughter all first born children, cause disease over a large area, make the sky fall, make the sun eclipse, create a giant pillar of flame by night and cloud by day. Make the most fortified walls collapse, ressurection. Create Earth, Water, Fire and Air. Create all life. Create LIGHT. Create the universe. Yup that is just war and water ... What does thor do call down lightning and grow oaks? If your going to accept all of Thor's realm of control which is a LONG list, then you must also do the same for YHWH and remember that YHWY, Joshua/Jesus and The Holy Spirit are all capable of the same.

Those are all great examples, and sure yaweh did some cool stuff, but all gods in all mythology did some cool stuff. That really was my point. I don't see any reason why yahweh should get any special treatment. For example a lot of god's created the earth, almost all of them are in Pantheon's of the universe, and there is even a mesopotamian god in the stories about Gilgamesh who caused the great fluid, and had some guy build an ark and save all the animals before Yahweh did, so yahweh is really just second best as far as that's concerned. Sure anyone can have him as an almighty, mysterious figure in their Rifts world if they want, but personnally I don't think he's anymore impressive than Isis, or Siva, or any other mythological figure so I think it's a great idea to have him in a game and maybe even have a campaign where the characters are in a Job like situation but instead of bending their knee's pull out their boom guns and give old Yahweh a piece of his own medicine. Oh and on a side note I brought up the tower of babylon just because to me a god who's afraid of a bunch of guys breaking into heaven by making a big tower means he's a god that doesn't even realize his kingdom of heaven doesn't actually exist high up in the sky where a tower may reach it, so much for omniscience.

Yahweh depicted as a war god:
Numbers 14:42-43
42 Do not go up, because the Lord is not with you. You will be defeated by your enemies,
43 for the Amalekites and Canaanites will face you there. Because you have turned away from the Lord, he will not be with you and you will fall by the sword
Deuteronomy 20:1-4
1 When you go to war against your enemies and see horses and chariots and an army greater than yours, do not be afraid of them, because the Lord your God, who brought you up out of Egypt, will be with you.
2 When you are about to go into battle, the priest shall come forward and address the army.
3 He shall say: “Hear, Israel: Today you are going into battle against your enemies. Do not be fainthearted or afraid; do not be terrified or give way to panic before them.
4 For the Lord your God is the one who goes with you to fight for you against your enemies to give you victory

Oh the guys with iron chariots that were just too much for Yahweh:
King James Version
Judges 1:19
And the LORD was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the
inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron.

There is an entire website called iron chariots that has all sorts of gems like this.

Sorry about my spelling, poor grammar and overall poor writing, I'm pretty sleepy and always seem to be writing my posts from my phone.

You do realize that the Babylonian and Mesopotamian myths rather than disproving or showing that their Gods were first can be read as supporting evidence of events that happened in the Bible? Why do all these ancient religions share a flood and some dude that built a boat... maybe it is because it happened after all Noah and his family would be the source of all humanity on the planet now, if we believe the story. So the Mesopotamians and Babylonians are his descendants too. Adam gave rise to humanity, Noah gave rise to ALL nations and Abraham gave rise to two great nations.

besides the sleepy the phone is enough explenation (<--- Don't know what is worse poor spelling or knowing when you mess up but not knowing how to correct it and being too lazy to copy and paste it to word )

[Zer0 Kay]

I'm literally going right to bed so I cannot reply to this but yes, God is the universe, well, everything that is eternal is of God. I will dig you up some verses tomorrow bro. But yes the big Y is the Brahman except instead of appearing as a combined consciousness that encompasses all aspects of life he is an all knowing all powerful entity that is the only eternal force in the universe. Everything not of God is less than him and bound in entropy to rot, die, decay and fall away into nothing. Best way I can sum it up in twenty seconds.

This is where God breaks down, at least if I'm understanding what you're saying, so let's compare the two things you stated...I'll grant that you are tired and maybe you are just misspeaking.

In Christian Theology there is GOD and SIN. God is Eternal and Everlasting Life and Sin are things in opposition to the nature of God, things that are of the world and fleeting or will lead to spiritual death.

These things are directly contradictory. If god is Brahman, then he is also Sin, Brahman is Everything, with a capital E, therefore God would also have to be Everything. The problem is God also has a personality and very strict limitations depending on what part of the bible you are reading. You can't be everything and not everything at the sametime. At least not in my mind. In my mind if you are everything and not everything then you are basically nothing. So another way of stating it is that if Sin isn't God, then either God isn't Everything, or Sin simply isn't real, if sin isn't real Jesus was a pointless excercise and we all go to heaven, in fact if sin isn't real, there really isn't any need at all for earth, in biblical terms at least, since we should all simply be in heaven.

I realize that really all this means is that Yahweh simply doesn't fit well into the Hindu pantheon, which I agree with and that the Hindu pantheon doesn't really fit in with the Christian pantheon.

As far as bible verses regarding all the Omni- powers of God, I want to clarify just a little bit. I don't mean verses where God states he is those things, or someone states he is those things, like I said earlier, it's easy to find statements like that in many texts about all sorts of dieties. I'm looking more for a passage that demonstrates it, I'm not really sure there are any. Sure there are a lot of passages where he shows off some fairly mediocre powers for a Deity, but nothing were for example he clearly is everywhere at once, or everything at once, or can do absolutely anything, in fact he couldn't even forgive the entirety of all his worshippers without first sacrificing himself/his son first. Or, for another example, why bother with the flood, why not simply change the minds of all the sinners, or maybe just blink the bad ones out of existance, why make innocent babies drown, and destroy millions of animals that have nothing to do with the sins of man.

Hmm maybe I can clarify. All the things Yahweh/Jesus/Holy spirit can do, at least all the things itemized in the bible, are all things I can easily imagine, and likely are things a bronze aged author could also imagine, he just doesn't do anything that really surprises me (impresses me) for someone who's supposed to be all Omni'ed up. In fact, sort of my original thesis, nothing he's credited for is really all that different then the things credited to Zeus, or Thor, or Brahma, so I feel (and especially since crosses do have magical powers in rifts, therefore Jesus in some since or other must exist in the rifts megaverse) it makes perfect sense for God to get the same treatment that Zeus, Thor, Brahma etc get (I'm not saying they are treated bad, that's not what I mean) because they are all at least in the same ball park when it comes to their powers, maybe Yahweh get's a few more, but all in all fairly comparable.

I just want to reiterate, I'm not trying to insult anyones faith, or disrespect anyone at all. My point is that if you don't believe in God, or even if you do, it's not too terribly big a stretch to make him on par with the beings in Pantheons so I am not only all for it, I actually think it should be promoted.

Where does it say God is EVERYTHING? Now I guess if some consider him Brahma yeah, or even Odin or Zeus... he'd actually be Chaos or one of the other Titans... but God isn't EVERYTHING. Omnipresent, omnipotent and omnicient. He is all places (NOT in all things), all powerful and all knowing. Sin is an archery term and basically means how far from the bullseye you are. God is that bullseye and all that miss that mark is sin. No one is sinless, but one man in all of history. The only times I recall "everything" being credited to God is creation, at which point there was no evil and where it says that the source of all good things is God. Now THAT is interesting. Because nothing good comes from the flesh. So every single idea any Christian has had that has truely produced good results is not from the flesh but from the Holy Spirit. In any other case it would have to be by outside influence.

But back to the game... out of the Big Three only Christ can be hurt God and the Holy Spirit are never seen in their true form. Both are spiritual beings so have no physical form. So any time that God was seen in flesh it was the second person of the Trinity before he was reborn as fully human.

[Zer0 Kay]

Religious debate... BORING!!!

Let's talk about Jesus Wong Vampire slayer.

Why? What is wong with him, is he never white?

Why's it always gotta be white with you?

Cuz' I'm an Albino, so stop putting down the minorities! Down with the peach skinned up with the pigmentally challenged.

Wait... I thought you were a vampire?

Do I look sparkly to you?

[stake]

Ach... why?????

Your fault for bringing them up.

[cornholioprime]

Getting back to the OP, one of the other reasons, beside the controversy of statting out this particular Deity in this particular part of the world (I'd bet that SquareEnix doesn't openly market their version of Shiva in Indian countries, either), is that He is actually a pretty "boring" guy to have gamers go up against.

Not only does He NOT have any known physical stats, and not only does He have a list of game-boring magical/physical/psionic/temporal capabilities that makes an Old One look like a Vagabond.....but even His Angels don't really have 'stats' as we understand the term.
Rather, they have enough power for a given task that God sets for them; sometimes, they are so 'weak' that mortal men can at least hold their own with them for awhile in a wrestling match, and sometimes they are so powerful that they can release world-killing plagues and earthquakes with the mere sounding of a trumpet blast.

If God wanted an Angel to dribble the entire planet like a basketball and do tricks with the planet as if that angel were a Harlem Globetrotter, than that angel would have that power for at least that point in time.

Thank you AS. You also answered another question I have always wondered. I have always been lead to believe Lucifer was a beautiful Angel and wondered how he all the sudden started looking like Cernunnos

One of the things that I like a lot about my particular belief system, is that it teaches you not to judge a book by its cover.

Lucifer is one of the most beautiful creations in the Megaverse according to Abrahamaic Theology (and likewise many of the angels, both faithful and rebellious); on the other hand, at least one of the Holy Creatures that worships God at the Throne day and night is a hideous, multi-eyed monstrosity that almost certainly inspired the Deevil Horror in PFRPG.

[Misfit KotLD]

this thread should be locked soon because I have the growing urge to start knot hexes to stop certain posts from being read!.


and again, Everything in the "OT/NT" is parasited off previous cultural contacts, And thus, Not the final truth or what have you.

Everything? That's a rather strong position. While the influences of other nearby cultures is amply evident, the Bible is not absent original content in any way, shape, or form. You also may as well go with "HT/NT" if you're going that route. You know, Hebrew Testament and New Testament.

I will give you, there are some interesting theologies represented.

[Zer0 Kay]

this thread should be locked soon because I have the growing urge to start knot hexes to stop certain posts from being read!.


and again, Everything in the "OT/NT" is parasited off previous cultural contacts, And thus, Not the final truth or what have you.

you know what if you don't like it no one is demanding your presence and no one is forcing you to be here nor is this the only way in to the forums. Don't want to read it... don't open it.

[llywelyn]

this thread should be locked soon because I have the growing urge to start knot hexes to stop certain posts from being read!.

Except everyone is being civil except you and zacc, and he's just a little hasty on the ad homs.

If you're feeling an urge to flame a perfectly good thread (we've already spawned at least one campaign for a GM), go reread the forum rules or better yet just focus your attention elsewhere.

You do have a minor point that we're getting away from game-helpful discussions and people would be well-served to bring it back to that.

I'[m] sorry for being disrespectful. That wasn't my intention at all and I never suspected it was your[s] either.

Cool.

@I'm not sure what you mean by this. It's grossly ignorant,
Oh...

So by "Sorry for being disrespectful", what you meant was "Sorry I wasn't more disrespectful"? Aside from having your own forum rules issues, it doesn't seem like you've got this whole making-friends-and-influencing-people thing down. Plus it doesn't help that you remain incorrect.

The Abrahamic faiths — particularly Kabbalistic Judaism and Neoplatonic Christianity — have a long history of pantheistic trends (which are kept esoteric, so Ak & Zer0 are both right above) and even ignoring those the traditional G-d outside the Creation remains in complete mastery of it in a way that Vishnu, Krishna, and Shiva are not and cannot be, except among their most devout followers who simply identify them essentially monotheistically with Brahman. (As for Brahma, even Hindus don't get worked up about him. He got a lot of good press early on, but these days he barely has five temples in all of India.) Parts can certainly rebel against the whole, which is both why things like allergies and cancer exist (and are deleterious) and why ideas like sinning and Hell still exist in Hinduism despite its theologians being openly pantheistic.

@Now if you are saying Yahweh exist out[]side of the universe, and there[]fore outside of [] Brahman,
That is the orthodox view in all the Abrahamic religions.

@basically you are arguing he exists out[]side of the Whole of Everything, ie reality[,] and simply isn't real.
I'm sure that's your view and quite possibly your in-laws', but it remains true that a good portion of humanity — and posters here — disagree strongly (For the most part, that's the only response because your view is internally consistent and arguing isn't going to change your mind. If you were curious where they were coming from, though, the actual view is not that G-d is outside the Whole (big W) of Everything (big E) — His believers certainly think He exists — but that He is outside of Creation and Time and cannot be "placed" or "located" anywhere but is yet also everywhere. He could easily be construed as a 4D entity like Pantheon's Zurvan — part of the WoE and even able to act in this world but yet truly separate from any part of what regular Joes would call "reality"). Kindly reread these and feel free to try again, with more understanding — or at least less insulting of — those who disagree with the particular views you've come to in your own life about the Ultimate. If you've done that and still feel the need to make personal attacks or speak in absolutist terms, just PM me directly so we can avoid seeing the thread locked down. It's actually been civil and fun up to now.

From a gaming perspective, it's obvious (a) the natural way to handle any god in Palladium is to make them an alien intelligence or magical being, (b) Yhwh (or El or Ja or ...) started out as a tribal deity among a people who didn't yet deny the reality or power of other people's gods, (c) that's not at all how He's taken now. Obviously people will approach that differently and we should respect and refrain from abusing each other's separate takes. If the atheists want to stat up a Mesopotamian deity, fine (and go ahead and show us what you come up with ); but that's no reason to flame the thread about how much you dislike or disagree with option (c), which could be used by a GM to place the player characters into a very old tradition of saints' stories and pious knights. Hell, many GMs could be considered to run their games like the Book of Job already; option (c) would just make it official .

[llywelyn]

...essentially promises eternal rewards to the extent its practitioners blow smoke up their own deities' posteriors without any regard to their own traditions, canon, or plausibility...

[Very good points].

On my part, apologies to you or Zacc if you took that characterization badly.

I linked to Wiki's yoga bhakti page and, looking at Hinduism as a whole, it's a fair description, but I see your point. Another way of describing it would be that yogis who make Vishnu or Krishna or Shiva Lord of all Creation is that they are going the Hebrew route and henotheistically pinning their faith on a single star, opting to turn their back on the rest of His manifestations or aspects. The smoke aspect comes from the fact that even the yogis themselves typically wouldn't say their way is the only way or their god really is the only G-d; it's just that talking about Him that way is what works for them. Nonetheless, the point stands that such poems or scriptures can't be used to stat a Deity or rebut the orthodox theology of the Abrahamic traditions — the yogis' devotion simply turns the object of their faith into a similarly infinite-statted Supreme Being.

A relative of the guy doing the Rifts India book is around here on the thread. Wonder if he's including a yogi class... which would be what, do you think? A minor godling if you were doing it right; or maybe something like a (good) witch where you receive a part of the divine essence?

[Misfit KotLD]

...essentially promises eternal rewards to the extent its practitioners blow smoke up their own deities' posteriors without any regard to their own traditions, canon, or plausibility...

[Very good points].

On my part, apologies to you or Zacc if you took that characterization badly.

I linked to Wiki's yoga bhakti page and, looking at Hinduism as a whole, it's a fair description, but I see your point. Another way of describing it would be that yogis who make Vishnu or Krishna or Shiva Lord of all Creation is that they are going the Hebrew route and henotheistically pinning their faith on a single star, opting to turn their back on the rest of His manifestations or aspects. The smoke aspect comes from the fact that even the yogis themselves typically wouldn't say their way is the only way or their god really is the only G-d; it's just that talking about Him that way is what works for them. Nonetheless, the point stands that such poems or scriptures can't be used to stat a Deity or rebut the orthodox theology of the Abrahamic traditions — the yogis' devotion simply turns the object of their faith into a similarly infinite-statted Supreme Being.

A relative of the guy doing the Rifts India book is around here on the thread. Wonder if he's including a yogi class... which would be what, do you think? A minor godling if you were doing it right; or maybe something like a (good) witch where you receive a part of the divine essence?

No, you're misreading Siva Purana. It's from a deific urination comparison in which Siva is the most manly and potent as his member can take down the universe without the deity being present (yes, it flies about on its own). But as I said,Hinduism as a whole religion is a very new development. Its writings are incredibly ancient in origin, but were not collectivised into Hinduism until the British Empire came along.

You are right about Hindu thought never saying there is a sole way, hence the variety of yogis available. One takes the yogic path suited to one's nature and follows it as far along their path to Nirvana as they can. But even Judaism took until Babylon to take a universal deity, until then God was their god, not The God. Not even Josiah's reforms went that far. But after the fall of the monarchy, Yahweh got bigger in scope and much less human/tangible in form.

You and AS follow some more esoteric thought, which is why I disagree with your mainstream claims, although diverging from the orthodoxy is highly common in Christianity. The sudden flowering of heretical cults in the middle ages has more to do with consolidation and expansion of Papal/Church authority than any doctrinal errors.

Fun fact, Frederick II took Jerusalem while excommunicated (which he was subject to twice) and despite his clashes with the papacy, was a strict suppressor of rebels and heretics (though Muslims and Jews served openly in his court). I'll also note alchemy (which today's churches would see as black magic/devil worship) was very widespread in the middle ages and not seen as a sin.

Back to my campaign, Frederick II's illegitimate daughter Margaret (ok, one of, he had many), was trained as a knight by some of his men and served her father during his conflict with the papacy. After his defeat, she was convinced to serve a vampire lord, but kept well away from her father's territories. Michael Scot, an alchemist in his court, managed to come up with a cure for vampirism to save his lord's daughter. She came across is centuries later and held onto it. In the Night of Blood (in which a fallen vampire kingdom attempted to invade Ciudad Juarez and failed) Margaret made a deal with the PCs and was partially freed from her curse. She is now a wampyre traveling with the party. She may or may not pursue waking her father if she learns of him. Coincidentally, the party possesses the magical tome with the location of Frederick II's resting place (as he was one of a few medieval kings said to slumber under a mountain waiting for his nation's direst moment to wake and ride to war and rule).

There, i even finished sort of on topic! Go me! *Buttdances*

[llywelyn]

No, you're misreading Siva Purana.

Don't think so.

@It's from a deific urination comparison in which Siva is the most manly and potent as his member can take down the universe without the deity being present (yes, it flies about on its own).
It is, indeed, hilarious on many levels and would be a great story element if the players could deal with it. Or even if they couldn't deal with it in very amusing ways.

@But as I said,Hinduism as a whole religion is a very new development.
I'm not sure how this disagrees with anything that I said. Maybe you were misreading my post. My point is that the scriptures of the various bhakti devotees (to put it charitably) overstate things and freely admit they're doing so. The Shiva Purana is a paragon of that, not a counter-example. Team Shiva bhaktis will take it at face value, and the Team Vishnu and Team Krishna guys essentially say "Nuh-uh. Our god could totally kick your god's butt" (= henotheistic Hebrews dealing with the Canaanites) when they aren't feeling charitably enlightened and saying "Well, certainly, that's your way of looking at it" (= most people's idea of Hinduism) instead.

There's very seldomly (never?) any point where the yogis go the current Abrahamic route and say "NEIN. Our G-d is the only one in existence and what you are saying is a bald-faced lie born of Darkness."

On the other hand, I'm frankly dubious that the Shiva Purana is fully accepted across the other faiths, since I can't see the Krishna devotees agreeing Shiva's got a better dong than their guy. Wiki's article on the puranas even quotes one theologian who essentially ranks them for "different understandings of men", with the implication that the Shiva Purana is the method for understanding the Ultimate most appropriate for those who like dick and fart jokes in their scripture. Generally, any of the bhaktis are looked at as following the lowest yoga. It's not the best or most refined vision, but it's better than nothing and moves them up the chain of being until they can appreciate the Good Stuff and deserve real moksha.

@follows it as far along their path to Nirvana as they can
Let's not drag the Buddhists into it. That's a whole other kettle of fish.

@But even Judaism took until Babylon to take a universal deity
Historically, yeah, you're probably right. But this is one of the Mothers of All Retcons.

Like I said before, (a) the natural way to handle any god in Palladium is to make them an alien intelligence or magical being, (b) Yhwh (or El or Ja or ...) started out as a tribal deity among a people who didn't yet deny the reality or power of other people's gods, and (c) that's not at all how He's taken now. Obviously people will approach that differently and we should respect and refrain from abusing each other's separate takes or claiming one is Right.

@I'll also note alchemy (which today's churches would see as black magic/devil worship) was very widespread in the middle ages and not seen as a sin.
I don't think even the Texan School Curriculum Board really sees chemistry as devil worship, although it might be hilarious to create a story line around something like that. (As for Bad Chemistry as opposed to proto-chemistry, the medieval church could be perfectly uncivil when it came to presumably devil-worshipping Jewish & Muslim scientists, while accepting the claims of Christian alchemists - that they were aiming to perfect their souls according to the natural laws G-d from His wisdom and love provided man - at face value. Newton would've gotten in trouble for his unitarianism, not his alchemy per se.)

@Back to my campaign

Yeah, good job bringing us back to that

Love bringing Frederick into it, although I would've gone the Rifter route and made her a cursed master created by an unholy Church prelate or pissed courtier. How did you set up the vampiric cure? Just a spell or a ritual involving particular ingredients the players needed to assemble?

I could see something like that being highly useful, both for saving Mexican loved ones and allowing players to - for example - break into ARCHIE's lair more or less free-of-charge and then fix themselves up afterwards.

Such obviously useful and human-friendly magic might also plausibly lead to a more openly experimental magic policy on the part of the Coalition (in a player campaign; obviously Mr. Siembieda has a separate vision for them in the bookfluff).

[Nightmask]

I remember in the Rossweisse comic the writer was balancing in one storyarc the nature of the title character (a Valkyrie exiled from Asgard for a few thousand years for being too enthusiastic about her bodyguard duties and killing a diplomat who insulted her charge) against the fact she was present when a king died and an angel came for his soul while they were talking. When asked by another exile what she saw she referred to its fierce continence and how it would have surely killed her if she'd had to fight it, which pretty much fits the balance of acknowledging various faiths like the Norse pantheon alongside Christianity. So she exists more mortal and interacts more with mortals whereas the Christian Angels are generally too above that.

[zaccheus]

I'm too tired to snip quotes from previous posts and what not. And again apologize if I'm being disrespectful. I don't intend to be, so I'll try not to state that someone is ignorant of X, becuase I suppose it is an Ad hominem. I am just going to state my point one last time because we seem to be getting more into a debate on what God is rather then what I intentionally meant.

My argument was that Yahweh as described in the bible, is not that much more impressive then Zeus, or Brahma or any other Deity who has stats in Pantheons of the megaverse, and because of this he too should have stats. I'm not attacking what anyone believes. I get that AS's and llywelyn's position is that Yahweh is Omnipotent, Omnipresent, omniscient and timeless, and it's moot, in my opinion, of whether or not the God they believe in or don't believe in has these characteristics, but to state that Yahweh as described in the bible has these powers appears to be ignoring what is in the bible, truely I do not know if either of you are ignorant of how Yahweh is described in the text and to say so would be an ad hominem, and I apologize for stating that earlier, but I didn't mean it to offend, and it would seem at ther very least you are ignoring these points. I agree as someone said earlier that my position is a bit reductive, but I don't feel that's a good argument since the presentation of all the dieties in Pantheons is reductive in respect to what others believe(d) about those dieties, the Hindu pantheon is a really good example of this, if you were to compare Vishnu as presented in pantheons to what current believers consider him to be, there would be a vast difference, and that is the premise upon which I'm basing my build of Yahweh on. Earlier in the thread I presented a snippit out of the old testament where God couldn't defeat an army with iron chariots, clearly contridicting the omnipotent claim. Here's some more for the other Omni's:

Genesis 18:20
And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grave
will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know

So number one, if god is omnipresent then "going down" to sodom and Gomorrah makes absolutely no sense, he's already there, aslo if he is omniscient then he should already know if the outcries are based in truth or not, and if he is timeless "going down now" also makes no sense because if you are above time, out side of time, or whatever timeless means then now is irrelevent to you, if you are going there, you are already there, or where there yesterday, it's I suppose simultaneous since you are timeless.

Genesis 22:10-12
And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son
And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I.
And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

Here we see god perviously did not know that Abraham feared God (so much for Omniscience), also this illustrates Yahweh also is not timeless for if he was anything he knows in the "future" he would also know in the "past" because such concepts would be meaningless to him, his knowledge today, tomorrow and 100 years from now would all be the same, but clearly, at least in genesis his knowledge changed from before abraham raised his hand to kill his son to after, showing definatively Yahweh operates within time as we know it.

--Anyways I didn't have to look very far into the bible to contradict the claims of having all these omni powers and therefore he is above all the other gods who have stats, so please find passages that demonstrate that he does have these abilities and is above getting stats. Again, I'm not really concerned about christian apologetics, or what modern christians believe, my argument is that if you look at yahweh through the same literary filters that you judge Brahma, Zeus, Odin, etc on he is deffinately in the same ball park as those guys, in terms of what is written about them in their religous texts. There are a lot of stories in Roman mythology claiming that Jupiter is all powerful and all knowing, but no one is making a claim that he should only exist in rifts earth as some amorphous being without stats that only manipulates things in some cosmic layers upon layers of way.

Again I just want to reiterate that I'm really enjoying this conversation, and I am not trying to deconvert anyone, or change anyones beliefs on any gods. I understand why KS didn't put the abrahamic mythologies into pantheons, especially considering when rifts was published was pretty much the height of the controversy of roleplaying games causing kids to commit suicide and whatever else other nonsense the american religious zealots where trying to drum up, I remember it well on an emotional level because that's exactly when I got into roleplaying, I'm sure i'm exagerating and most likely this is another ad hominem but I'm totally admiting I got burnt pretty bad when all this stuff hit the fan, so many of my roleplaying books got destroyed by my crazy aunt who thought it was satanic from something she read in a newspaper or something, so it's a bit of a sore spot. anyways i'm digressing. And again, very sorry for any hard feelings that I caused. I'm not used to the idea of calling someone ignorant as being disrespectful, my collegues and I do it to each other all the time, it's how we teach each other when new studies come out regarding new uses of old medications, or new surgical techniques etc, I'll try my best to not make assumptions in that way again. I do respect all of you and enjoy the chat.

[llywelyn]

Again, I'm not really concerned about christian apologetics, or what modern christians believe

That's rather the crux of the issue. To say nothing of the Jews or Muslims or Baha'i or Mormons or...

my argument is that if you look at yahweh through the same literary filters that you judge Brahma, Zeus, Odin, etc on he is deffinately in the same ball park as those guys, in terms of what is written about them in their religous texts. There are a lot of stories in Roman mythology claiming that Jupiter is all powerful and all knowing, but no one is making a claim that he should only exist in rifts earth as some amorphous being without stats that only manipulates things in some cosmic layers upon layers of way.

Except again, just like the bhaktis, even their own believers don't honestly and zealously affirm what they're saying and admit it's just a perspective. The Greeks and Romans in particular didn't make Zeus omnipotent and omniscient out of religious fervor but something like the opposite: philosophers like Socrates were embarrassed by the gods' poor behavior as described by the poets and aspired to put their moral teachings on a more secure foundation. That this involved essentially porting to monotheism was a big part of Neoplatonism's success as a movement in Christian thought through the Dark and Middle Ages.

The Abrahamic faiths on the other hand have taken shma Yisrael, Adonai Eloheinu Adonai Echad and run with it.

The irony of course, is that there isn't one answer here - you can use the textual Jewish Deity or the all-powerful later Abrahamic Deity or Palladium's alien intelligences - and the guy peddling the "monotheism is not teh exist" is the one who can't see that. If you really, deeply need some retcon closure, consider that there is absolutely no question that the G-d of the Quran is single, one, omnipotent, and hostile to any claims whatever to the contrary. Then realize that that G-d is not some other being named "Allah" but the very same Deity as the Hebrews' and that the reason for Muhammad was to correct errors in the previous texts, such as tribal Hebrews making the One sound like the many dieties they understood and were surrounded by on all sides. Their very ignorance on that point is the running joke of the books of the judges, histories, and prophets.

@I'm used to calling all my friends ignorant [edit: Snipped upon request]
If you say so, man. Might get farther if you didn't, but if that's the culture where you come from, it's great you're groking that and learning to focus on the topic and not the people arguing online, esp. about something as personal as religious belief. Y'know, especially when you're wrong.

[Misfit KotLD]

It's only partially successful and requires a willingness on the part of the vampire in order to succeed. So it's really not helpful in the grand scheme. I do use the modified vampire rules Ed made, but there's bonuses to having him in my game. I did not want her drafted by the papacy though she would have been a coup for the Holy See. No, another power grabbed her then kept her well away from her father's war with Rome.

I'm done with the theology as you're not giving all mythologies a fair treatment. I get your bias, but it's causing some skewed readings of the source texts.

[Zer0 Kay]

I'm too tired to snip quotes from previous posts and what not. And again apologize if I'm being disrespectful. I don't intend to be, so I'll try not to state that someone is ignorant of X, becuase I suppose it is an Ad hominem. I am just going to state my point one last time because we seem to be getting more into a debate on what God is rather then what I intentionally meant.

My argument was that Yahweh as described in the bible, is not that much more impressive then Zeus, or Brahma or any other Deity who has stats in Pantheons of the megaverse, and because of this he too should have stats. I'm not attacking what anyone believes. I get that AS's and llywelyn's position is that Yahweh is Omnipotent, Omnipresent, omniscient and timeless, and it's moot, in my opinion, of whether or not the God they believe in or don't believe in has these characteristics, but to state that Yahweh as described in the bible has these powers appears to be ignoring what is in the bible, truely I do not know if either of you are ignorant of how Yahweh is described in the text and to say so would be an ad hominem, and I apologize for stating that earlier, but I didn't mean it to offend, and it would seem at ther very least you are ignoring these points. I agree as someone said earlier that my position is a bit reductive, but I don't feel that's a good argument since the presentation of all the dieties in Pantheons is reductive in respect to what others believe(d) about those dieties, the Hindu pantheon is a really good example of this, if you were to compare Vishnu as presented in pantheons to what current believers consider him to be, there would be a vast difference, and that is the premise upon which I'm basing my build of Yahweh on. Earlier in the thread I presented a snippit out of the old testament where God couldn't defeat an army with iron chariots, clearly contridicting the omnipotent claim. Here's some more for the other Omni's:

Genesis 18:20
And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grave
will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know

So number one, if god is omnipresent then "going down" to sodom and Gomorrah makes absolutely no sense, he's already there, aslo if he is omniscient then he should already know if the outcries are based in truth or not, and if he is timeless "going down now" also makes no sense because if you are above time, out side of time, or whatever timeless means then now is irrelevent to you, if you are going there, you are already there, or where there yesterday, it's I suppose simultaneous since you are timeless.

Genesis 22:10-12
And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son
And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I.
And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

Here we see god perviously did not know that Abraham feared God (so much for Omniscience), also this illustrates Yahweh also is not timeless for if he was anything he knows in the "future" he would also know in the "past" because such concepts would be meaningless to him, his knowledge today, tomorrow and 100 years from now would all be the same, but clearly, at least in genesis his knowledge changed from before abraham raised his hand to kill his son to after, showing definatively Yahweh operates within time as we know it.

--Anyways I didn't have to look very far into the bible to contradict the claims of having all these omni powers and therefore he is above all the other gods who have stats, so please find passages that demonstrate that he does have these abilities and is above getting stats. Again, I'm not really concerned about christian apologetics, or what modern christians believe, my argument is that if you look at yahweh through the same literary filters that you judge Brahma, Zeus, Odin, etc on he is deffinately in the same ball park as those guys, in terms of what is written about them in their religous texts. There are a lot of stories in Roman mythology claiming that Jupiter is all powerful and all knowing, but no one is making a claim that he should only exist in rifts earth as some amorphous being without stats that only manipulates things in some cosmic layers upon layers of way.

Again I just want to reiterate that I'm really enjoying this conversation, and I am not trying to deconvert anyone, or change anyones beliefs on any gods. I understand why KS didn't put the abrahamic mythologies into pantheons, especially considering when rifts was published was pretty much the height of the controversy of roleplaying games causing kids to commit suicide and whatever else other nonsense the american religious zealots where trying to drum up, I remember it well on an emotional level because that's exactly when I got into roleplaying, I'm sure i'm exagerating and most likely this is another ad hominem but I'm totally admiting I got burnt pretty bad when all this stuff hit the fan, so many of my roleplaying books got destroyed by my crazy aunt who thought it was satanic from something she read in a newspaper or something, so it's a bit of a sore spot. anyways i'm digressing. And again, very sorry for any hard feelings that I caused. I'm not used to the idea of calling someone ignorant as being disrespectful, my collegues and I do it to each other all the time, it's how we teach each other when new studies come out regarding new uses of old medications, or new surgical techniques etc, I'll try my best to not make assumptions in that way again. I do respect all of you and enjoy the chat.

Could be that it is because he is relating to creatures that are bound by time could it. If he didn't do that and just sat up there doing nothing because he knows what is going to happen or how someone feels then everyone would be claiming that he is a God that doesn't care. Like the land lord that doesn't go to the projects he owns to make his presence felt just because he knows that it is in a bad neighborhood and hears enough about it from the manager he placed over it. Your practicing eisegesis instead of exegesis. Read out into life not life into it.

Omnipotence:

Spoiler:

Matthew 19:26
But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

Genesis 17:1
And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the Lord appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.

Job 42:2
I know that thou canst do everything, and that no thought can be withholden from thee.

Jeremiah 32:17,27
Ah Lord God! behold, thou hast made the heaven and the earth by thy great power and stretched out arm, and there is nothing too hard for thee:
Behold, I am the Lord, the God of all flesh: is there any thing too hard for me?

Luke 1:37
For with God nothing shall be impossible.

Revelation 19:6
And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

Omnipresence:

Spoiler:

Psalm 139:8
If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

Jeremiah 23:23,24
Am I a God at hand, saith the Lord, and not a God afar off? Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the Lord. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the Lord.

Ephesians 2:22
In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

Psalm 113:5
Who is like unto the Lord our God, who dwelleth on high.

Psalm 123:1
Unto thee lift I up mine eyes, O thou that dwellest in the heavens.

I Kings 8:27
But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded?

Matthew 6:9
After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

Hebrews 1:3
Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

I Corinthians 1:27
But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty.

Matthew 18:20
For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

Romans 10:6,7
But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? Or, Who shall descend into the deep?

Romans 8:9
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Omniscient:

Spoiler:

Psalm 147:4,5
He telleth the number of the stars; he calleth them all by their names. Great is our Lord, and of great power: his understanding is infinite.

Acts 15:18
Known to God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

Psalm 33:13
The Lord looketh from heaven; he beholdeth all the sons of men.

II Kings 13:19
And the man of God was wroth with him, and said, Thou shouldest have smitten five or six times; then hadst thou smitten Syria till thou hadst consumed it: whereas now thou shalt smite Syria but thrice.

Jeremiah 38:17-20
Then said Jeremiah unto Zedekiah, Thus saith the Lord, the God of hosts, the God of Israel; If thou wilt assuredly go forth unto the king of Babylon's princes, then shall this city be given into the hand of the Chaldeans, and they shall burn it with fire, and thou shalt not escape out of their hand. And Zedekiah the king said unto Jeremiah, I am afraid of the Jews that are fallen to the Chaldeans, lest they deliver me into their hand, and they mock me. But Jeremiah said, They shall not deliver thee. Obey, I beseech thee, the voice of the Lord, which I speak unto thee: so it shall be will unto thee, and thy soul shall live

Romans 4:17
(As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickened the dead, and calleth those things which be not though as they were.

Isaiah 46:10
Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure.

Matthew 11:21-23
Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you. And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.

I Samuel 23:5-14
So David and his men went to Keilah, and fought with the Philistines, and brought away their cattle, and smote them with a great slaughter. So David saved the inhabitants of Keilah. And it came to pass, when Abiathar the son of Ahimelech fled to David to Keilah, that he came down with an ephod in his hand. And it was told Saul that David was come to Keilah. And Saul said, God hath delivered him into mine hand; for he is shut in, by entering into a town that hath gates and bars. And Saul called all the people together to war, to go down to Keilah, to besiege David and his men. And David knew that Saul secretly practised mischief against him; and he said to Abiathar the priest, Bring hither the ephod. Then said David, O Lord God of Israel, thy servant hath certainly heard that Saul seeketh to come to Keilah, to destroy the city for my sake. Will the men of Keilah deliver me up into his hand? will Saul come down, as thy servant hath heard? O Lord God of Israel, I beseech thee, tell thy servant. And the Lord said, He will come down. Then said David, Will the men of Keilah deliver me and my men into the hand of Saul? And the Lord said, They will deliver thee up. Then David and his men, which were about six hundred, arose and departed out of Keilah, and went whithersoever they could go. And it was told Saul that David was escaped from Keilah; and he forbare to go forth. And David abode in the wilderness in strong holds, and remained in a mountain in the wilderness of Ziph. And Saul sought him every day, but God delivered him not into his hand.

Eternal:

Spoiler:

Psalm 90:2
Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.

Genesis 21:33
And Abraham planted a grove in Beersheba, and called there on the name of the Lord, the everlasting God.

Isaiah 57:15
For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.

Deuteronomy 33:27
The eternal God is thy refuge, and underneath are the everlasting arms: and he shall thrust out the enemy from before thee; and shall say, Destroy them.

I Timothy 1:17
Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Infinite:

Spoiler:

Psalm 145:3
Great is the Lord, and greatly to be praised; and his greatness is unsearchable.

II Chronicles 2:5 & 6
And the house that I build is great: for great is our God above all Gods. But who is able to build him an house, seeing the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain him? who am I then, that I should build him an house, save only to burn sacrifice before him?

I Kings 8:27
But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded.

Jeremiah 23:24
Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the Lord. Do I not fill heaven and earth? saith the Lord.

[zaccheus]

Could be that it is because he is relating to creatures that are bound by time could it. If he didn't do that and just sat up there doing nothing because he knows what is going to happen or how someone feels then everyone would be claiming that he is a God that doesn't care. Like the land lord that doesn't go to the projects he owns to make his presence felt just because he knows that it is in a bad neighborhood and hears enough about it from the manager he placed over it. Your practicing eisegesis instead of exegesis. Read out into life not life into it.

Okay this is getting more into what I was hoping for in terms of this conversation (I'm not quoting your entire post because it's super long, but I'm responding to the whole thing). A couple of clarifications though. Again am not trying to debate modern christian beliefs or trying to read into the bible things that aren't there. Maybe the bible is written in such a way because it's an attempt to relate to creatures that are bound by time and therefore the language as written aren't accurate representations of the infinite God, that's fine, but that's not what is written. Clearly, as written he didn't know that Abraham was going to kill his son and therefore feared god up until the moment he stayed his hand, so trying to interpret more into that just doesn't further the discussion. Most of the passages you quoted are either people attributing things to Yahweh, or he himself simply stating that he is X (omnipotent, infinite etc). What I really want to see is passages that demonstrate this. If in fact the character Yahweh is somehow greater than Brahma, just as an example, who also states he is omnipotent, all knowing, the creater of the heavens and earth, the creator of good and evil etc but who has finite stats in rifts, it needs to be deomonstrated that Yahweh is somehow greater, in the text mind you. Getting into what people believe, or what current religions espouse is getting us no where and unfortunately people's feelings seem to be getting hurt, so I'm avoiding that now.

Psalm 33:13
The Lord looketh from heaven; he beholdeth all the sons of men.

I'm repeating this passage that you pointed out because it is the best one you have and it's really starting to get into the meat and potatos of what I'm looking for to take Yahweh off the list of dieties in pantheons. It demonstrates something that falls into the powers he is described. It's not quite enough so far, especially since it doesn't really seperate him out from the other gods in Pantheons, Brahma for example (I know I keep using the Hindu pantheon, but that's just becuase that one is freshest in my memory, but I doubt it's exclusive to him) is often discribed as all seeing, it's why he's depicted/described as having 4 faces, in fact there is a story where shiva cut off his fifth head just so Brahma's daughter could escape him (he wanted to have sex with her).

[Zer0 Kay]

this thread should be locked soon because I have the growing urge to start knot hexes to stop certain posts from being read!.


and again, Everything in the "OT/NT" is parasited off previous cultural contacts, And thus, Not the final truth or what have you.

Umm I am not sure what religion you are that you are threatening to start knot hexes to stop certain posts from being read, but from what I know of most religions that use things like that, that is a gross misrepresentation of that religion. I don't know many pagan faiths that condone hexing people, especially trying to bend someone else's will so that they will not do something that you find inappropriate.

Never mind that most of those that do use spells usually have a five fold return especially for malific spells. I'd consider stopping another's non-violent actions based solely on ones dislike of it to be malific.