Is Rifts dead?

[Athos]

I was just wondering if you think Rifts will ever make a comeback and if so, why?

I am kind of down and want to believe that Rifts isn't a waste of time and money at this point, but the evidence to the contrary is mounting up :

1) PB can't produce 3-4 books a year on Rifts, look at Megaverse in Flames as an example. Compare this to successful games like Pathfinder that turn out a new book every other month.

2) PB just got a million and half to do something besides Rifts, the RT Tactics. What reason do they have to work on NG 1 and 2? Or MiF?

3) I don't think Kevin ever really liked Rifts, I think it was more CJ that made it work.

4) The setting is incredible, but that can be duplicated using other rulesets, in fact, I have a friend now that is doing a rifts like game using Pathfinder.

5) There is so little new material, and so much cutting and pasting, I think it turns buyers off.

6) Rifts has always lacked an editor that played the game, playability has always been a problem with it. New players just aren't willing to put up with all the bad for the excellent setting, which face it, is 20 years old now and the novelty has worn off.

Don't get me wrong, I would love to see Rifts make a comeback, it is one of my all time favorite games, but for now anyways, I think I am going to have to let it go. If it lives, it lives, if it doesn't, well the writing was on the wall.

[nilgravity]

I'm hoping that Robotech battle tactics can be integrated into the RPG as well as they claim because that could mean a Rifts Battle tactics as well that could lead people into the original RPG so they can roleplay out their favorite pieces.

[Eashamahel]

There is a great thread about How to get More People playing Rifts, it's well worth a read through, and though it is very long, if you ignore the bickering, there are a lot of solid ideas on the direction of RIFTS, and what can be done to bring it (and Palladium) back to the minds of customers. (If you do read through it, there is a way-to-long section about playing superheroes in Rifts that doesn't really go anywhere or help with anything, as well as a lot of posts discussing GMing and group size that would be better of in a different thread)


Rifts isn't a waste of money as long as you are enjoying it and have people to play with. Now, whether or not it is an 'alive' system that is still going somewhere, that is up for debate. As for right now it 'is' alive, as is Palladium Fantasy, Chaos Earth, and several other products that Palladium 'supports' by not putting books out for half a decade or more, only because it hasn't been cancelled/the doors haven't closed on the company.


As for your points specifically,

1) Palladium can barely get books out at all, let alone compete with other major gaming companies. At this point it's just a wait and see as to if any books come out each year.

2) There was a great thread in the 'All Things Palladium' about whether anyone was upset about NG 1&2 being delayed. It unfortunately got locked after some people got hyper defensive about it, but the moral of the story is, PB's wants to put out Rifts books, they are the ONLY line that they actually try and sell. They just happen to be really bad at getting those books out, on time, or sometimes at all. It's just how the company is, and is also why it is where it is.

3) I don't have any insight onto this one. What I can tell you is that, from reading the books, KS has a very different view of how RIFTS is and how it works to other authors. Those other authors are all gone now. This is also seen in Palladium Fantasy. The other authors for that game range are also gone now.

4) I don't have any comment on using other rulesystems to run RIFTS.

5) Again, nothing much to add here as far as cutting and pasting, but what I can say is that, as time has gone on, more and more books have been released and less and less of them have I found usefull.

6) Bad editing is part of the non-evolving Palladium product. It's been the same for 20 years, it's not going to change, the company will run like this until it no longer runs. Pictures will not match descriptions, things will be crammed in with smaller font, mistakes will show up constantly, stats won't add up, bonuses won't make sense, ect ect. As you said, RIFTS is a game with a great setting.


One thing to consider is something I am doing now, which is making some effort to get together all of my favourite stuff from the line. Miniatures that I like, old art prints, old books that are favourites, that kind of thing.

[The Raven]

I was just wondering if you think Rifts will ever make a comeback and if so, why?

I am kind of down and want to believe that Rifts isn't a waste of time and money at this point, but the evidence to the contrary is mounting up :

1) PB can't produce 3-4 books a year on Rifts, look at Megaverse in Flames as an example. Compare this to successful games like Pathfinder that turn out a new book every other month.

2) PB just got a million and half to do something besides Rifts, the RT Tactics. What reason do they have to work on NG 1 and 2? Or MiF?

3) I don't think Kevin ever really liked Rifts, I think it was more CJ that made it work.

4) The setting is incredible, but that can be duplicated using other rulesets, in fact, I have a friend now that is doing a rifts like game using Pathfinder.

5) There is so little new material, and so much cutting and pasting, I think it turns buyers off.

6) Rifts has always lacked an editor that played the game, playability has always been a problem with it. New players just aren't willing to put up with all the bad for the excellent setting, which face it, is 20 years old now and the novelty has worn off.

Don't get me wrong, I would love to see Rifts make a comeback, it is one of my all time favorite games, but for now anyways, I think I am going to have to let it go. If it lives, it lives, if it doesn't, well the writing was on the wall.

Let me address each of your pointers, based on what I've gotten talking with a number of freelancers and Kevin himself has said in podcasts.

1. Paizo (pathfinder) has a much, much larger staff compared to Palladium. Paizo is pretty much the old Dragon/Dungeon magazine staff (along with a number of new people), so they had built-in framework. And I know a number of gaming stores that are beginning to dislike Pathfinder, since they are stuck with product from 5 years ago (the original Rise of the Runelord adventure path) that isn't selling.
2. Robotech Tactics RPG won't kill the freelancers or Kevin writing for Rifts. A number of the freelancers I've talked with have ideas for Rifts (and other lines), but things are in a holding pattern while waiting for funding and editing time.
3. Kevin has always stated he loves Rifts and the other Palladium product lines. CJ Carella didn't come into Rifts until a number of years after the game was going strong. Saying that CJ was the force behind Rifts is like saying (insert freelancer) was the force behind (insert product line) since they did a few books.
4. Anything can be copied and new rules pasted on it. So saying Rifts with Pathfinder rules being a point that Rifts is dead is like saying D&D was dead when the next company did a swords-and-sorcery style game.
5. Most of the newer books have very little cutting-and-pasting in them from what I've seen, unless you count the compilation books (D-Bees of North America for example). And cut-paste-syndrome is not just Palladium. I've see this from a number of companies (including Paizo since you have brought them up a number of times so far).
6. You are saying that Kevin himself doesn't play Rifts?

Palladium may not be a mega RPG company along the lines of Paizo, but they are doing better than a number of companies I can think of (Catalyst having to cut books up and sell pieces of them as different PDFs for 6-9 months to raise money to actually print the whole book for example).

As the old saying goes 'Rumors of my demise were greatly exaggerated' applies to Rifts. While the game may not be something that floods the market, when stuff comes out, it amazes people. I've seen mecha-artists such as David White (look at Battletech and you will find his material all over) drooling over the images that have been shown for NG1 and NG2.

[flatline]

Not dead, but possibly dying.

I haven't played in over a decade, but I still like to pick up new books because I like to read them. I mostly ignore the system (except for the purposes of discussions here on the forums), but I generally like the ideas.

Once my kids get older and I can start to game again (possibly with them), I will almost certainly use elements of the setting, but played with a different system. If I find a group playing Rifts, I'll play it, but I'm more likely to choose the group for the people than I am for the system they play (if you like the people, you can tolerate any system).

--flatline

[Pepsi Jedi]

Palladium may not be a mega RPG company along the lines of Paizo, but they are doing better than a number of companies I can think of (Catalyst having to cut books up and sell pieces of them as different PDFs for 6-9 months to raise money to actually print the whole book for example).

[/quote]

I think you're misrepresenting here. Catalyst is going into their 5th Edition of Shadowrun. What you're citing as a book cut up as different pieces is not a book cup up and sold in pieces. It's a bunch of smaller supplements that are produced and sold as PDF's and then some have been gathered together to sell as a single book for those that either didn't want the smaller supplements piece meal or want them all in one place.

Also to answer that. I point you to Vampire Kingdoms Revised, with out the Reid's Rangers in it, and Vampire sourcebook. One large book's worth of Material spread over two smaller books, with what many would consider 'essential' information, the Rangers, found in the second book, not the first where it belonged, to insure the second book's sales. I point you to the first two Dead Reign supplements that are pretty clearly one book cut in half with two covers to get two 'books sold'.

I don't 'blame' Palladium for such. They are a company, who is trying to make money, that's what they do.

It's not the same as Catalyst that takes 4 or 5, 20 to 90 page PDF supplements and then wraps them together later to sell bundled or as a book.

[Subjugator]

I was just wondering if you think Rifts will ever make a comeback and if so, why?

I am kind of down and want to believe that Rifts isn't a waste of time and money at this point, but the evidence to the contrary is mounting up :

1) PB can't produce 3-4 books a year on Rifts, look at Megaverse in Flames as an example. Compare this to successful games like Pathfinder that turn out a new book every other month.

I suspect Palladium doesn't have the funds of Paizo.

2) PB just got a million and half to do something besides Rifts, the RT Tactics. What reason do they have to work on NG 1 and 2? Or MiF?

Rifts is Palladium's bread and butter.

3) I don't think Kevin ever really liked Rifts, I think it was more CJ that made it work.

Seriously? You're kidding...right?

I'm not Kev, but I'll go ahead and go out on a limb here. When this exchange took place, Kev *really* meant his answer:

Q: To what do you attribute Rifts' success?

Q: It's f---in' brilliant!

(God - has it really been seven years?)

4) The setting is incredible, but that can be duplicated using other rulesets, in fact, I have a friend now that is doing a rifts like game using Pathfinder.

Why do you think that prevents him from producing books? Those who use other rule sets are still using Palladium's world and world books. They're just porting it over to other rules. *shrug*

5) There is so little new material, and so much cutting and pasting, I think it turns buyers off.

I could be wrong, but I think this has gone way down.

6) Rifts has always lacked an editor that played the game, playability has always been a problem with it. New players just aren't willing to put up with all the bad for the excellent setting, which face it, is 20 years old now and the novelty has worn off.

There were some threads posted by the folks at Palladium about some rules changes (rules-light, medium-rules, and rules-heavy). I don't know where they've gone with it, but it's being looked into. They're listening.

Don't get me wrong, I would love to see Rifts make a comeback, it is one of my all time favorite games, but for now anyways, I think I am going to have to let it go. If it lives, it lives, if it doesn't, well the writing was on the wall.

I don't think it's going away...and I think the best is yet to come.

/Sub

[Joseph Kerr]

I never cared for Rifts or any megadamage setting. Reason being somethings in these enviroments run around with 1000's of MDC but you can't play a super?

Are you talking about comic book style characters? Because you can. You have two options actually. You can make a Super powered mercenary or convert a super from HU2 using the conversion book.

[Braden Campbell]

3) I don't think Kevin ever really liked Rifts, I think it was more CJ that made it work.

Wh- what?!?

Elaborate, please.

[Bill]

Rifts is more like undead than dead. It's the shambling monster of a game that just won't go down. Even if Palladium were to shutter the doors tomorrow, the fan material would keep churning out for years to come and eventually some fan with more money than sense would convince KS to sell him or her a license to reprint it (possibly with a clause that no word be changed).

Make no mistake, I'm one of the many fans of the setting that wants a complete overhaul of everything. I'd be willing to risk sinking the leaky ship that is Palladium to put out Rifts 2 with the all new and improved megaversal system, featuring a unified core mechanic, streamlined character generation, and a point-based advancement system. It's not my call to make though.

[Killer Cyborg]

Heroes Unlimited characters do not adapt well to this particular game.

[Marrowlight]

I don't think it's going away...and I think the best is yet to come.

/Sub

....really?


Like, the single best Rifts book still hasn't been written yet, or the best era of quality products hasn't come yet, or?

[Killer Cyborg]

I was just wondering if you think Rifts will ever make a comeback and if so, why?

Because the setting alone draws a LOT of people.
All Palladium needs to do to bring in a lot of cash is to either fix their system, or license Rifts to be converted to another system.

Even if they never do either of these things, a lot of the problems have been caused by financial difficulties from the CoT, and Palladium seems to finally be recovering enough to get a bit of breathing room.
And they're using this breathing room to try new things, and to move the company in new directions.

[Joseph Kerr]

Heroes Unlimited characters do not adapt well to this particular game. I refuse to convert anything. Just stick with the vast library of sdc books and play the powers as written. Saves a lot of time and aggravation. Though I have made a Robot Exoskeleton that looks striking similar to a SAMAS. lol

OK, just figured I'd mention the fact that you can since you said you couldn't is all. I've played three supers and haven't had any issues.

Edit: I totally forgot about the Skraypers book, which has Supers in an MDC universe.

[SmilingJack]

I logged on specifically to address this post

HELL NO RIFTS IS NOT DEAD

I recently just became a megaversal ambassador and I truly believe in not only the system, but the Rifts Franchise

Every year new books are being printed, players are applying to become ambassadors, items go into backorder and need reprinted

There clearly is a demand for the Rifts product because people are still buying and supporting it

Akin to a Dying restaurant if no one was interesEd in what was being offered it would have folded but continues on with people like forum members and gaming fans

Rifts is so much more than a game it's a idea that has sparked the imagination of millions of gamers, And obviously still does
otherwise nobody on here would be discussing it, if it was in fact completely dead

I know I'm doing everything in my power to promote the game I love and share it with as many people as possible, it hurts me to think that It could ever cease to exist

there are still people out there that are As equally passionate as I am, and those that care about it will insure that it continues on

Rifts is amazing and I don't ever want to see it gone

[MaxxSterling]

As far as I can tell, Rifts is dead. No stores anywhere near me carry books at all. Most gamers at conventions, laugh at the mention of it and some don't even know what it is... They look at me and say, "Oh, you mean GURPS?" When you're company has to use kickstarter to fund projects and you're not a start up company... that right there should tell you something. I agree with the first post, but the players have been saying this stuff for years, with no fix. It's always a problem with small businesses, lack of vision, owner thinks they are god, believe it's their way or the high, cavalier attitude, poor representation... I wish this game was more, but it's not and after all these years, I don't suspect it'll ever be more than a little game that some of us are willing look past much to try to enjoy.

[DhAkael]

GODS there's a bunch of pesimisim....
Seriously, I thought I was slagging the company hard but jeez!
Sadly I can't defend the company because I agree with almost 98% (heh... punny) of the resons given for said pesimistic views.

Thanks-heaps guys for reminding me why a game-line I adore has gone swirling into the sludge-pit.

BTW; I still will run Rifts (bugger HU; munchkin game for munchkin players that THINK they're being fair cuz it's SDC) until my books fall apart. I just most likely won't BUY anymore until K.S. gets his head out of the sand and starts correcting these problems and NOT making excuses.

[DhAkael]

As far as I can tell, Rifts is dead. No stores anywhere near me carry books at all. Most gamers at conventions, laugh at the mention of it and some don't even know what it is... They look at me and say, "Oh, you mean GURPS?" When you're company has to use kickstarter to fund projects and you're not a start up company... that right there should tell you something. I agree with the first post, but the players have been saying this stuff for years, with no fix. It's always a problem with small businesses, lack of vision, owner thinks they are god, believe it's their way or the high, cavalier attitude, poor representation... I wish this game was more, but it's not and after all these years, I don't suspect it'll ever be more than a little game that some of us are willing look past much to try to enjoy.

Sadly I must agree with you here... but as in my previous post in this thread, I'll keep running the game till my current books fall apart.

[DhAkael]

Far from dead... a dead game Star Frontiers or Gamma World... No one ever remembers those games

I have the Keith Parkinson box-cover version of Gama-world.
Completely unplayable but dang it was a fun read / idea.

[Subjugator]

Far from dead... a dead game Star Frontiers or Gamma World... No one ever remembers those games

I do. I still have a Pure Strain Human around here somewhere. I also have a Dralastite with a stunstick and a skeinsuit around here somewhere as well.

/Sub

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Far from dead... a dead game Star Frontiers or Gamma World... No one ever remembers those games

I love those games , I still have them lol!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Hmmm........

[Faceless Dude]

Advertise, Advertise, Advertise. Also develop a kid friendly version, A novel series, A comic book series, A Facebook page with large breasted women having fun, Cosplay something, A cartoon like one from way back in the day , TURTLE POWER!!!!, Hire Patrick Stewart, Sam Jackson,Morgan Freeman and Bruce Willis to star in a "RIFTS" movie, Make a better conversion system, do away with mdc, Have traveling GM's, Put out a P90X style workout video, Do the HarlemShake, Hire Lil Wayne as your company Manager, Build a Native American Gaming Casino, Create effective MDC to SDC conversion Rules. All things that might help a company trying to generate revenue and a larger fanbase.

I got into Palladium Books back in the 80s, specifically through TMNT and Robotech. Those were the kid-friendly versions of the Palladium system back then. I don't know what PB could license today as a more kid friendly property, I don't watch that many cartoons. There's gotta be something though.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Advertise, Advertise, Advertise. Also develop a kid friendly version, A novel series, A comic book series, A Facebook page with large breasted women having fun, Cosplay something, A cartoon like one from way back in the day , TURTLE POWER!!!!, Hire Patrick Stewart, Sam Jackson,Morgan Freeman and Bruce Willis to star in a "RIFTS" movie, Make a better conversion system, do away with mdc, Have traveling GM's, Put out a P90X style workout video, Do the HarlemShake, Hire Lil Wayne as your company Manager, Build a Native American Gaming Casino, Create effective MDC to SDC conversion Rules. All things that might help a company trying to generate revenue and a larger fanbase.

I got into Palladium Books back in the 80s, specifically through TMNT and Robotech. Those were the kid-friendly versions of the Palladium system back then. I don't know what PB could license today as a more kid friendly property, I don't watch that many cartoons. There's gotta be something though.

Based on some art out of the Rifter #62, KS could write some pretty serious My Little Pony RPGs.

ohgoodlordpleasemakesurethisneverhappens

I SAW THAT TOO!! And My instant reaction was to yell for the wife to come look at it, in hopes I was seeing things or seeing it wrong some how!!

Her exact words were "Oh god!! Is he making a My Little Bronie RPG!?"

[Eclipse]

I think the volume of posts has significantly slowed over the years on these forums. I don't know how good an indicator of Rifts and Palladium's fortunes that is...

[kaid]

I'm hoping that Robotech battle tactics can be integrated into the RPG as well as they claim because that could mean a Rifts Battle tactics as well that could lead people into the original RPG so they can roleplay out their favorite pieces.

Well from my reading of the early rules even if they don't make an actual rifts battle tactics it would be pretty easy to retrofit it. The MDC and weapon damages all have straight conversions and the rest would be pretty easy to adapt as it is already designed to work with the robotech RPG.

[Cyber-Knight]

It's been almost 10 years since I've seen or heard of anyone playing Rifts anywhere in my neck of town, so take that for what you will.

Honestly, I think the best thing that could happen to Rifts would be for the IP to be sold to another, larger, game company. Or at the very least for Siembieda to step aside and let someone else run the company and redevelop the game rules. Palladium's game system and publishing standards were fine for the 80's, but times have changed and Palladium hasn't changed with them. Everything from the game system to the production quality of the books themselves needs to go. I think Rifts could be successfully re-launched, but only if there's a serious shakeup to the rules system and how their books are produced. The majority of gamers these days don't seem at all interested in dealing with Palladium's 30-year-old rules system or business practices, and frankly, I don't blame them.

[kaid]

Far from dead... a dead game Star Frontiers or Gamma World... No one ever remembers those games

I do. I still have a Pure Strain Human around here somewhere. I also have a Dralastite with a stunstick and a skeinsuit around here somewhere as well.

/Sub

I really liked star frontiers back in the day. They did an excellent job with the alien species and it was a fun sci fi setting at a time when there was not much of this kind of thing to be had.

I think traveler eventually killed it and has pretty much owned that niche for decades.

One ironic thing about the slowness of the palladium release cycle is even only doing 4 releases per year still puts them at the top end of the RPG market publishing speed wise. Many are lucky if they do one or two actual print releases a year.

As for kickstarters most companies are starting to ride that train and you likely will see this as common for all but the top tier interests like WOTC.

[earthhawk]

Setting alone does not a game make. If it did games like Rifts would be industry leaders, but it isn't. The game isn't dead but it certainly doesn't seem to be moving forward. I give them credit for hiring Chuck Walton; he's a fantastic artist whose style lends itself well to the setting. But even his skill can't over look the glaring rule inconsistencies, delay after delay, and promised material that either gets published late, or doesn't get published at all. Fans have been trying their best to support the game, but it seems their support is taken for granted time and time again. I wish Palladium and Rifts the best of luck and sincerely hope they do well, but there's so many games out there that don't have these problems it's making harder and harder to push my money their way.

[Vrykolas2k]

Rifts is more like undead than dead. It's the shambling monster of a game that just won't go down. Even if Palladium were to shutter the doors tomorrow, the fan material would keep churning out for years to come and eventually some fan with more money than sense would convince KS to sell him or her a license to reprint it (possibly with a clause that no word be changed).

Make no mistake, I'm one of the many fans of the setting that wants a complete overhaul of everything. I'd be willing to risk sinking the leaky ship that is Palladium to put out Rifts 2 with the all new and improved megaversal system, featuring a unified core mechanic, streamlined character generation, and a point-based advancement system. It's not my call to make though.

I agree with this, the company has teetered on the brink of extinction for almost its entire existence. Meanwhile the game itself is saddled with an archaic system that hasn't been revised since the 80's. To top it all off, the more I look the more I seem to find numerous reasons to question the actual motivations and priority of the company (much less KS himself). This, combined with the rather tumultuous relationship that PB has had with the gaming marketplace, does not bode well for the future of the company.

I too wish to see the system completely updated (although at this point I would settle for even a step forward) because, unfortunately, Rifts is my favorite game ever. However, I believe that Kevin would sooner let the company go under than go public and start letting the fans have a serious say in things (in fact he has said as much before). So even if a revision were possible, it would not occur (officially) until far, far into the future.

What would you like the system updated to?
Something like 4.0 that allows you to damage even when you miss, or the like...?

[Sureshot]

So what the solution then. Change nothing and hope for the best. No one is saying 4E. Keeping the stauts quo is not making things better. The company is surviving not thriving. I sometimes wonder if some fans realize how bad of a state PB is sometimes. Or how it's not as popular as it used to be. One mentions the word change and all of sudden it's doom and gloom if anything major is changed. We have some silver lining on the horizon yet imo like it or not things are not good for PB.

I vote PB switch to AD&D. Giving all races except human level limits is the way to go.

[Bill]

As much as I actually like D&D4's combat engine, I think it's too detailed and that it tends to push story into the background. D&D4 sessions end up being exercises in tactical decision making, even in character generation and equipment selection.

I would prefer something more akin to Storyteller, which would emphasize role play and in-character decision making over tactics while maintaining the capacity for extensive character build options without really being generic per se. I've used generic rule sets to power Rifts in the past, it ends up feeling watered down and rewards players too much for mastering the underlying mechanics of designing powers.

[Natasha]

It seems to me that the pinnacle of Rifts was when the by lines had a variety of names. Until that day returns, I do not think Rifts or any other line will make a comeback.

[T-Willard]

Four books is quite a bit.

I was the sole writer for an RPG line for about 5 years, and even as prolific as I am I was only able to put out 3-6 books a year. Things got bogged down in artwork, editing, layout, printing, all that fun stuff. It isn't easy writing RPG's, and I won't bag on KS or the company for the amount they put out.

One thing though, is the Rifts series seriously needs people who know what they are talking about when it comes to world building. One or two simple college courses, some interviews with experts, could make the books much much better.

The problem is the world doesn't make much sense if you know anything about how modern industry and how civilizations grow.

Not to mention the laughably out of date information on how modern military forces work. Contrary to what has been said, you cannot have a technically advanced military with an illiterate society and illiterate soldiers.

The entire world needs a revamp.

Someone needs to sit down with all the books, and try to make a cohesive whole.

Then a decent metaplot needs done. The Ten Threats were a good metaplot, but it really kind of got lost for a long time. The Coalition/Tolkeen War had potential, but it suffered from a bad case of armchair general-itis and a poor grasp of tactics and strategy. It was like someone wanted to do World War One with giant robots and didn't understand anything about why the modern military would rip through World War One tactics like they weren't even there. (Ask Saddam how Cold War tactics worked in Desert Storm. Oh, wait, you can't, because he got his butt kicked both times trying to use outdated equipment and tactics)

Then some realism needs to be mixed in with the Rule of Cool.

And there needs to be people admitting when they were wrong in the books. I mean, the first and most obvious is the 1,000 round glitter boy and the Mach 2 muzzle velocity.

The internet is here, it has been here for awhile, there is no excuse for that kind of data when 10 minutes worth the research would prove otherwise. Maybe you could get away with it in the 80's (we laughed at the Mach-2 muzzle velocity then) but now people can look up the data in seconds then mock you on the internet for years over it.

I'm not saying that the writing staff needs to be an expert in all things, but they need to be honest enough to know when they need to do research or need to talk to experts.

So basically, the whole setting needs rebuilt, there needs to be some balance and correction in the basic combat system, the skills section needs rebalanced, and some things need addressed.

But your looking at a Herculean task. And how many people would be willing to buy Rifts 2E? How angry would people be over the alterations to the time-line? To the alteration of their favorite OCC's/RCC's, and breakable mechanics?

Sure, Rifts needs taken back to mechanics, but who wants to do that, or pay for it?

[Bill]

Who would pay for it? A very good question. Let me ask you, who is paying for Exalted's third edition? Admittedly, Rifts' fan base may not be quite as enthusiastic as Exalted's, but that's the virtue of crowd funding. If the project can't generate the finances necessary to execute it, no harm no foul. In my mind, the only real failure would be to not try. Persisting as things are until the company finally grinds to a halt just seems like a bad idea to me.

[Marrowlight]

It seems to me that the pinnacle of Rifts was when the by lines had a variety of names. Until that day returns, I do not think Rifts or any other line will make a comeback.

Oddly enough, I disagree.


All kidding aside...while the fans turned writers produced some wonderful stuff from Australia to Triax 2, I really felt Rifts hit its peak in the Siembeda/Carella era. Obviously I hated losing Carella, but I really feel like KS himself never quite bounced back from that era either. Books would have bright spots, but the fire of those early Rifts books has felt absent from KS for a loooong time. Though maybe that has more to do with losing Long than KS losing a reliable second writer in Carella....or Wuj busying himself with other projects, or w/e. But somewhere along the wave from Psyscape to Canada, something got lost imo.

[Marrowlight]

So what the solution then. Change nothing and hope for the best. No one is saying 4E. Keeping the stauts quo is not making things better. The company is surviving not thriving. I sometimes wonder if some fans realize how bad of a state PB is sometimes. Or how it's not as popular as it used to be. One mentions the word change and all of sudden it's doom and gloom if anything major is changed. We have some silver lining on the horizon yet imo like it or not things are not good for PB.

I vote PB switch to AD&D. Giving all races except human level limits is the way to go.

Stop changing your avatar!

I stand by what I said a month or so ago in another one of these threads - imitating other companies is a patch on the wound at best, and probably a complete waste of time. This treading water act that is going on isn't good, but I'd prefer PB keep at it and take a shot at something genuinely new and ahead of the curve, instead of throwing out the baby in the hopes of increased success through industry sameness.

I think at times, when folks call for such changes though, we forget that beyond everything else, this is KS's livelihood and retirement - one bad move could wreck the man at an age where it's bad to get wrecked. He should be retiring now, or soon to now...and that's not exactly the ideal moment to say "yup, let's scrap it all and go with something new". Hopefully the kickstarter funds will allow him some freedom to experiment. But I can't see him going drastic now, for better or for worse.

[Bill]

When a rule doesn't work well, you change it. Even in baseball.

[Cybermancer]

Four books is quite a bit.

I was the sole writer for an RPG line for about 5 years, and even as prolific as I am I was only able to put out 3-6 books a year. Things got bogged down in artwork, editing, layout, printing, all that fun stuff. It isn't easy writing RPG's, and I won't bag on KS or the company for the amount they put out.

One thing though, is the Rifts series seriously needs people who know what they are talking about when it comes to world building. One or two simple college courses, some interviews with experts, could make the books much much better.

The problem is the world doesn't make much sense if you know anything about how modern industry and how civilizations grow.

Not to mention the laughably out of date information on how modern military forces work. Contrary to what has been said, you cannot have a technically advanced military with an illiterate society and illiterate soldiers.

The entire world needs a revamp.

Someone needs to sit down with all the books, and try to make a cohesive whole.

Then a decent metaplot needs done. The Ten Threats were a good metaplot, but it really kind of got lost for a long time. The Coalition/Tolkeen War had potential, but it suffered from a bad case of armchair general-itis and a poor grasp of tactics and strategy. It was like someone wanted to do World War One with giant robots and didn't understand anything about why the modern military would rip through World War One tactics like they weren't even there. (Ask Saddam how Cold War tactics worked in Desert Storm. Oh, wait, you can't, because he got his butt kicked both times trying to use outdated equipment and tactics)

Then some realism needs to be mixed in with the Rule of Cool.

And there needs to be people admitting when they were wrong in the books. I mean, the first and most obvious is the 1,000 round glitter boy and the Mach 2 muzzle velocity.

The internet is here, it has been here for awhile, there is no excuse for that kind of data when 10 minutes worth the research would prove otherwise. Maybe you could get away with it in the 80's (we laughed at the Mach-2 muzzle velocity then) but now people can look up the data in seconds then mock you on the internet for years over it.

I'm not saying that the writing staff needs to be an expert in all things, but they need to be honest enough to know when they need to do research or need to talk to experts.

So basically, the whole setting needs rebuilt, there needs to be some balance and correction in the basic combat system, the skills section needs rebalanced, and some things need addressed.

But your looking at a Herculean task. And how many people would be willing to buy Rifts 2E? How angry would people be over the alterations to the time-line? To the alteration of their favorite OCC's/RCC's, and breakable mechanics?

Sure, Rifts needs taken back to mechanics, but who wants to do that, or pay for it?

I agree with just about everything said here. All well said and identifies some key issues with the material as it exists and includes much of what is mocked and then ignored at tables I've gamed at.

That having been said, I don't think that Rifts is dead. Not at all. It's not what it once was perhaps but there's still books coming out. I haven't loved all of them lately but I have loved some of them. There's hope for the franchise even if none of the above ever materializes.

Still sometimes I wonder how long Palladium, not just Rifts can go on. Not because I want it to fail but because I know things change and come to an end.

Actually, I'm not sure you could call Palladium failed if it closed its doors tomorrow. It would have just run its course. But they're not closing their doors tomorrow because they're not done running their course quite yet.

[Sureshot]

Sorry about changing my Avatar. I went back to the HU one and PJ went back to his CS soldier one.

I'm not saying that they need to adopt other systems, There is imo a decent system buried in the PB set of rules. Problem is that it's a house ruled version of AD&D which is starting to show it's age. Unless we get a major new edition or a major streamlining I don't see how we can get any new interest into PB games as a whole. People love the settings hate the rules. It's a major uphill battle to change that. As well PB also has competiton from other truly generic rpgs such as Savage Worlds, Gurps Hero and others. I'm lucky that I can find players to play PB yet even that may become harder for me as one or two maybe moving. As well unlike Paizo where you can find all their rules free online some players are tired of buying new books. So Paizo has a big advantage over PB. I'm not sure if anything can be done to reverse the trend.

[Sureshot]

When a rule doesn't work well, you change it. Even in baseball.

You don't change the fundamental aspect of the game though. I don't see baseball players running around in pads and tackling each other.

Rifts is not pathfinder, Rifts is not DnD, Rifts is not Shadowrun. I don't understand why people want to change Rifts into something it's not.

Here the thing though changing nothing is not going to help things in the long run. As much as some want to deny it keeping the staus quo and the system unchanged is not going to make matter improve. A sudden miracle rush of new players is not going to happen. Maybe the mini game will help get some new blood. Yet imo not enough.

What is your solution then to keeping things as is.

[Bill]

When a rule doesn't work well, you change it. Even in baseball.

You don't change the fundamental aspect of the game though. I don't see baseball players running around in pads and tackling each other.

Rifts is not pathfinder, Rifts is not DnD, Rifts is not Shadowrun. I don't understand why people want to change Rifts into something it's not.

I agree, a new and improved version of the existing rules or something entirely original is preferable to copying another game.

[flatline]

The essential part of Rifts, to me, is the setting. The system is simply something I tolerate in order to enjoy the setting. My house rules are such that you probably wouldn't recognize anything beyond character generation anyways.

I hope Palladium isn't dying. I hope KS makes enough off of the books he sells to do well for himself now and in retirement (whenever that may be). I will continue to pick up books that look interesting to me, although, to be honest, I'd like to see more new settings rather additional books for existing settings. Splicers could use two or three more books. Dead Reign has enough. Wormwood needs another book. HU has enough. Rifts Earth could stand a few more books, but North America has too many already.

I've been shopping around with different systems, most recently Pathfinder and Savage Worlds, and they're both fine in their own ways, but they don't have the spark for making compelling settings the way KS does.

Keep it up, Kevin!

--flatline

[Cyber-Knight]

Persisting as things are until the company finally grinds to a halt just seems like a bad idea to me.

I think that that'd probably be the best thing for Rifts at this point. Once it grinds to a halt somebody else can buy up the property and relaunch it. Honestly, though, if I were Siembieda I'd give serious thought to selling off the company, possibly while still retaining some level of financial stake in it in order to derive a share of any future profits the new owners are able to get from it. It can only continue to lose value the more time goes by, so the sooner he were to sell it the more he would get and be able to comfortably retire.

Rifts is not pathfinder, Rifts is not DnD, Rifts is not Shadowrun. I don't understand why people want to change Rifts into something it's not.

Why do you assume that changing the game system means converting it to some other well-known game system? A change to the game system doesn't imply it has to become just like D&D 4E (which is a terrible game, anyway), or any other game system. Besides, as Sureshot pointed out, the status quo most certainly is not working. The system is ancient, and every facet of the game rules needs changing, from stats, to combat, to skills, to MDC and SDC, etc. T-Willard also raises some very good points about the core fundamentals of the world itself and how some of them need to be revamped. There are points when some elements of the setting just don't make any sense. And speaking for myself, I'd also like to see a higher level of professionalism brought to the supplements. What I wouldn't give for a professionally done map of North America like the kind which we see produced for a campaign world by most every other RPG publisher.

Things definitely need to change, though. While nobody is saying it needs to become Pathfinder, D&D, or Shadowrun, those games have done it right in that they don't rely on a 30+ year old game system which was hopelessly broken from the day it was introduced. They've evolved and changed over time. Pathfinder in particular offers a great idea for moving forward, in that any new system developed for the game can be opened up to a public playtest, allowing for the community to have a hand in shaping the future of the system. And while some systems have gone a bit to far afield in their evolution (D&D 4E) and need to reverse course, that's still better than the stagnation facing Palladium.

[Natasha]

It seems to me that the pinnacle of Rifts was when the by lines had a variety of names. Until that day returns, I do not think Rifts or any other line will make a comeback.

Oddly enough, I disagree.


All kidding aside...while the fans turned writers produced some wonderful stuff from Australia to Triax 2, I really felt Rifts hit its peak in the Siembeda/Carella era. Obviously I hated losing Carella, but I really feel like KS himself never quite bounced back from that era either. Books would have bright spots, but the fire of those early Rifts books has felt absent from KS for a loooong time. Though maybe that has more to do with losing Long than KS losing a reliable second writer in Carella....or Wuj busying himself with other projects, or w/e. But somewhere along the wave from Psyscape to Canada, something got lost imo.

My second experience with Rifts was trying to play by post with you some years back. I will defer to you or anyone about the history of the game since I have basically zero experience with it.

But we really seem to be saying close to the very same thing here: widen the bottleneck.

[earthhawk]

I thought about posting this and then decided against it, but here it goes anyway:

I think one of the biggest negatives for Rifts is this forum. On one end you have diehard Palladium fans who will do and say anything to defend their game. On the other you have those who are so fed up with the game that they voice their frustration here (I'm one of them), and last but not least you have lurkers who pop in for a few weeks, see read the forum and decided the game isn't for them or their group. Whenever I think about picking up a new game the first thing I do is look for the company website, then I head to the official forums. If see an active, positive fan base then I just may buy the book. But if I see arguing and negativity I usually keep going.

Do I think Rifts is dead? No, but as a new player why would you pick this game over the myraid of other games on the market?

I believe that Rifts fans have every right to be upset, but the constant negative posts about how the game sucks and what needs to be changed do nothing (I'm guilty of this) but drive potential fans away. Maybe we try something different for a change, what that is I don't know. All I can say is that yes I'm a fan, and yes I'm very disappointed in the direction the game has taken, but the only way to voice my concerns is with my wallet.

[Vrykolas2k]

Rifts, along with Palladium's other games, came out when there was a lot more variety in game systems.
There just aren't that many game systems any more, and those which are extant are fairly simplified. Some could be said to have been written for the mentally handicapped.
One of the things I like most about Palladium's games is the fact that it requires a modicum of intellect to play, without being overly complex like Rolemaster or Dangerous Journeys.
If I want to play something simple, I go with Talislanta or the old Marvel.

[T-Willard]

Who would pay for it? A very good question. Let me ask you, who is paying for Exalted's third edition? Admittedly, Rifts' fan base may not be quite as enthusiastic as Exalted's, but that's the virtue of crowd funding. If the project can't generate the finances necessary to execute it, no harm no foul. In my mind, the only real failure would be to not try. Persisting as things are until the company finally grinds to a halt just seems like a bad idea to me.

It's actually more complicated.

Sure Palladium could generate the money via kickstarter to pay editors, artists, freelancers, and everything else to develop a book (which can be really expensive just in and of itself, it usually cost me about $2,000 per book for development and costs, excluding the cost of the print-run), but then the print-run has to be done, advertising, and the Palladium Rifts line and currently existing copies have to be pulled.

A total rewrite of just the Core Book and Sourcebook One could take about a year total, since they're major projects that the rest of the series hinges on. Some of the artwork could be reused, mainly iconic art, but then new artwork would have to be generated, and a lot of other problems.

I don't know the sales numbers, so I can't say how Palladium or even Rifts is doing, to be honest.

But 4+ books a year is really good.

TSR and WotC both have suffered from 'product glut', and if you know your WotC history, you know that when they bought out TSR they found a warehouse full of nothing but unsold copies of unpopular books.

[Eashamahel]

I think one of the biggest negatives for Rifts is this forum.

I can see why you would feel like that, but honestly, can you REALLY believe that? For a company whose books are hardly even SOLD in gaming stores, you think that the forum is the issue? A company with almost no visibility, a history of problems, and extreme inconsistancy in everything from release dates to rules. And it's the forum. Honestly, it might seem like that to big fans who come on here alot, but the real negative is that there are not many fans, and it's hard for the company to make new fans.

Rifts, along with Palladium's other games, came out when there was a lot more variety in game systems.
There just aren't that many game systems any more, and those which are extant are fairly simplified. Some could be said to have been written for the mentally handicapped.
One of the things I like most about Palladium's games is the fact that it requires a modicum of intellect to play, without being overly complex like Rolemaster or Dangerous Journeys.
If I want to play something simple, I go with Talislanta or the old Marvel.

Haha, it's funny, I've heard that before, in a nicer tone it was part of the old RIFTS advertising. I would have to totally disagree though, in fact, I think the exact opposite is actually the case. Palladium is a SUPER 'simple' rule system, it doesn't have the depth/mechanics to be complicated. Some might say it was originally written by the the same people you think other games were written for, with extreme levels of copy and pasting, poor to no editing, massive rules holes and confusion caused by very few explanations/definitions, ect.

[The Raven]

Rifts, along with Palladium's other games, came out when there was a lot more variety in game systems.
There just aren't that many game systems any more, and those which are extant are fairly simplified. Some could be said to have been written for the mentally handicapped.
One of the things I like most about Palladium's games is the fact that it requires a modicum of intellect to play, without being overly complex like Rolemaster or Dangerous Journeys.
If I want to play something simple, I go with Talislanta or the old Marvel.

Haha, it's funny, I've heard that before, in a nicer tone it was part of the old RIFTS advertising. I would have to totally disagree though, in fact, I think the exact opposite is actually the case. Palladium is a SUPER 'simple' rule system, it doesn't have the depth/mechanics to be complicated. Some might say it was originally written by the the same people you think other games were written for, with extreme levels of copy and pasting, poor to no editing, massive rules holes and confusion caused by very few explanations/definitions, ect.

Palladium is not a super-simple system. I can think of a number of simple systems, such as the current giant of D20/Pathfinder. Most of those systems abstract everything down to a level where 'I want to fix a toaster' is the same skill roll as 'I want to fix a nuclear reactor' or 'I want to drive a car' is the same as 'I want to drive an Altarian Armored DeathWagon'. The current big games are trying to emulate video games and MMOs, but the VG/MMO emulation doesn't work too well, since in those you just don't see all the rules working (aka dice rolls being done by the game). Pretty much every 'simple' game I've seen ends up putting out supplements which complicate them and add tons of loopholes, and confusing contradictory rules.

I can also think of quite a few gaming systems that were big for a time but had utterly dense rules, with Rolemaster being the pinnacle of them. Any system that gives you a different critical chart for different weapons (blunt, light edged, heavy edged, spell, arrow, gun), different results from each type of weapon (sword vs dagger vs halberd vs whatever) and different charts for different levels of critical hits is complex. Rolemaster also had different modifiers for the condition of the weapon, size differences between attacker and target, armor condition, and numerous other modifiers. Pretty much all the old time 'complex' games are dead now, since you did less 'roleplaying' and more 'roll-playing'.

[Eashamahel]

I think I understand what you mean. Pathfinder has a lot more rules, and a rule system that seems more specific. RIFTS has a lot less rules, and a rule system that is very general. Because of this, RIFTS takes more independent thought by players, and Pathfinder relies on it's system. Sound about right?