Fighting Magic.

[AmberImmortal]

I'm working on a Heroes Unlimited campaign. Magic is a prevalent thing in this world. I need ways to counteract and combat magic. Anything really. I know that Bionics and androids are quite resistant to magic, for example. I need other ways though. What can I use, that's in the Heroes books that can be use to combat magic and spellcasters?

[drewkitty ~..~]

Magic is not "prevalent" in HU...only known to be present.

In HU there are no "Impervium" in bionics that makes the borg impervious to magic.
yes, there are certain magics that will not work on them due to the spells only work on flesh and bone. But then there is also spells like Negate Mechanics that have a possibility of effecting the borg.

Androids: they are only immune to those magics that affect the mind.

There are no tech devices that target magic or mages or empowered magic users specifically with in the HU canon. (As far as I can remember.)

Yes, there are tech devices that block/dampen super powers. It would take the GM for them to broaden the scope of such devices to cover mages and magic users.

[AmberImmortal]

Clarification: Magic is prevalent in *my* world. As in, the world I'm creating. I'm using the rules from heroes unlimited to make my world. I'm also pulling from nightbane and rifts for spells and inspiration, even a couple of classes. I was looking more for power catergories and classes that are good to oppose magic characters. Like Physical training for instance. It's not unusual for them to have a high Physical Endurance and, thus, a good save vs magic. You see? that's what I'm looking for. I don't need to know what I can't do. I need to know what I can do. By the way, a Full conversion Cyborg is very resistant to magic. They get a +5 to save vs magic and a +3 vs psionics (HU2 G.M's guide pg. 12). I need some sideways thinking here. Not just talk about rules.

[AmberImmortal]

Cool. These are things to look into. I was thinking about powers from like powers unlimited one. I think Iron will would be a good power. I think anyway. I haven't looked at it in a bit.

[slade the sniper]

Limiting, stopping and reducing magic abilities is a difficult thing to do the way that most magic abilities are written. Mechanically, spells and powers are seen in a different way than skills, or combat. For the typical skill or combat skill, there are 2 checks made...one to see if you can succeed at it, and a second check to see if the target is able to evade or otherwise negate your skill/attack.

With magic and most powers, this first check is done away with, such that there is only the defense portion of the ability with the "understanding" that the attack roll is always successful. A way to hugely reduce the imbalance of powers/magic is to introduce the 2 check mechanic back into it, so that the attack AND the defense part are accounted for. The easiest way to do that is simply throw a % onto each ability, so that they progress as do regular skills. What that initial % is, and the progression rate, is up to you, but generally 40% starting out, +4% per level is a pretty good baseline, or you could make it so that low level spells start about 80%, whereas high level ones start about 15%. Additionally, you could allow additional PPE be expended to increase the chance of success for magic. The same can be done for psionics as well.

That will make magic, powers and psionics just as powerful, but less...reliable...when playing in a mixed world where there are non-powered PCs, this modification really does tend to increase drama in my experience.

As far as reducing the effectiveness of magic...you can allow for stacking of save bonuses, use psionics/powers as a counter-balance, and play the rules of casting exactly. Run the casting times as stated, ensure that the ingredients are all prepared. Additionally, you can say that there is a limit to how much magical mojo a being can be connected to, say 1/2 of IQ or something. Thus a villain with an IQ of 18 can only have 9 magical implements, spells, items active at a time...so that way they don't turn into D&D wizards with every magic slot occupied and about 10 long duration augmenting spells active at a time.

Alternately, you can have magic be addictive...

Spoiler:

Magic is addictive. The reason for the stereotype of the wizard's tower is that older psions, elementalists, bio-mages, empaths, clerics, mages, shamans, cultists, alchemists, spiritualists and druids have tasted the seductive sweetness of raw Power firsthand, and they begin to need it. It starts out slowly, imperceptibly. During their youth, it is a physical sensation, the feeling of power flowing through them, into them, filling them. Casting spells causes exertion, but the endorphins released are addictive, giving them a "magic high".

This often manifests itself as mages who cast larger spells than necessary. That is a sure sign of a growing problem. That is stage one of what is commonly called Arcane Affective Disorder.
As time passes and mages, as well as other magic users, continue to use Power, they often begin to gain items that grant them more Power than they typically would have access to. Naturally the quest to gain more Power and hoarding magic items is yet another step on the road to addiction. This is stage two Arcane Affective Disorder.

The next stage is the need to have spells active at all time. Protective spells that are cast obsessively, healing potions that are imbibed for no reason and a need to have magic items on one's body at all times is stage 3 of Arcane Affective Disorder.

When a character fails to curb their appetite for magic, they will eventually fall to Arcane Affective Disorder and one of two things will occur. They will either die, or they will undergo a transformation, which will change them forever. This is stage 4 Arcane Affective Disorder. If they do not die, one of the following will occur; a complete metamorphosis, possession, vampirism, cannibalism, becoming a lich, or becoming a ritualistic sacrificial mass murderer.

Arcane Affective Disorder has different syptomology for Shamans than it does for others. A shaman with Stage 1 AAD will sometimes begin to act like one of their totems, sniffing
the air, pawing objects, etc. at random times, though with a successful Willpower roll, they can maintain control.

Stage 2 AAD is when the shaman will begin to become noticeably more atavistic, preferring uncooked food, spending more time outside, and when they speak, about 50% of the time, they will make animal noises instead of humanoid speech.

When Stage 3 AAD is reached, the shaman will often simply run away and live in the wild as if they were an animal of a type they are a shaman of. Thus a Stage 3 AAD Bear Shaman will simply run away and be a bear, albeit in other skin. A Stage 3 AAD Shaman is called ―feral, and they are.

A Stage 4 AAD Shaman becomes something else entirely. These are actually quite rare, since the majority of feral shamans simply become animals and never perform willworking again. A Stage 4 AAD Shaman is called a Wendigo, however. A Wendigo is almost the karmic opposite of a feral shaman. While a feral behaves like a natural animal of a type determined by his totem, a Wendigo operates like an evil version of that totem. Thus a Wendigo Dog shaman would hunt children, assault humanoids, steal food, etc., while a Wendigo Bear shaman will hunt and kill almost anything operating in it’s ―territory, which can be a city park or a cave complex. Wendigo Shamans are hunted and killed wherever they are found.

-STS

[Iczer]

Magic has it's downsides.

PE is used as the basis for saving throws. Superheroes, being what they are, tend to have a higher PE (and probably have a better PE bonus) and PPE isn't infinite. the good spells are not cheap, and one saving throw means you have wasted all that PPE and your action. Some super powers bypass a lot of the dangerous spells as well.

That said, I had a Hardware analytical make a 'white sound generator' that negated sound in a small area. That usually FUBARs most spellcasters and just Gagging them works too.

Batts

[AmberImmortal]

White noise generator. Really good Idea. I also just realized that any character with the minor power Warp Sound form Powers unliimited one could stop a spellcaster dead in his tracks, so to speak. I can't believe I didn't think of it before. Especially since, I think, they mention that in the power itself......now I feel stupid.

[PapaMambo]

If you're borrowing stuff from Rifts and Nightbane, why not borrow the Nega-Psychic from Beyond the Supernatural.

[AmberImmortal]

I thought about the Nega-psychic but, I'm just not that fond of them. They're basically just the ultimate nay-sayers. Then again, I could probably turn that into a really good mage-hunting class in my world. That could be cool no?

[Ectoplasmic Bidet]

I thought about the Nega-psychic but, I'm just not that fond of them. They're basically just the ultimate nay-sayers. Then again, I could probably turn that into a really good mage-hunting class in my world. That could be cool no?

There's also the Psi-Nullifier if the Nega-Psychic isn't your cup of tea.

[AmberImmortal]

Psi-Nullifier? is that still in beyond th supernatural?

[Ectoplasmic Bidet]

No, they're in the Rifts WB #12: Psyscape.

[AmberImmortal]

Low tech is often the best way to go. Yeah it helps. lol. thanks.

[slade the sniper]

Blindfolds, Gags, and handcuffs!

These eliminate the the wizards ability to cast instantly.
Throw a net over them and that disrupts there spell casting instantly. Make a noise, sound bomb, or knock out the lights and the wizard can't hit squat.

Any disruption could end spell casting instantly.

A super wizard would have more focus though, but if your an average cop on the beat... A bucket over the wizards head - Called shot to throw, and his cuffs would bring him down.
Also on a surprise roll, the wizard can dodge if he can't or doesn't expect it coming.

The real trick is winning initiative rolls.

I hope all this helps!

Hmmm, some other toys: flashbangs, smoke grenades, underbarrel high powered flashlights (ala Kick Ass...), eye blinding lasersand riot control agents...

Come to think of it, a modern military is fairly well prepared to deal with magic users if they get the tactical initiative. One question tho is how loud does the verbal component of a spell need to be? Does it have to be said at a certain pace, can it by mouthed silently, does your enemy have to hear it...does the caster have to hear it? These are fairly important because firefights and combat in general is pretty loud...I wonder if you can cast magic while getting hit in an artillery barrage? For that matter can you do magic while running, dodging this way and that with ragged breathing, peppered with shrapnel? Hmm, suddenly that "concentration" skill from D20 is looking more and more like something that can/could/should be ported over...

Magic. It's great if you are a sedentary old man in a quiet tower...

-STS

[AmberImmortal]

Millitary tactics would be pretty good for taking out mages. Mages take time to cast all but the most basic of spells. They would need the initiative to be able to take out a group of hardened black ops troops or even a regular fire team. Seeing as how initiative isn't exacly they're strong suit then I think it's fair to say that they'd get their lilly asses kicked by a well trained military team.

[Ectoplasmic Bidet]

Military tactics and trained black ops troops would be effective if deployed against virtually any threat, short of invulnerable mega-villains and giant alien robots, not just mages who need time to cast their spells.

You should also keep in mind that of nearly all possible villain types, even the mad scientist hardware geniuses, a knowledgeable mage with a base of operations and some time to prepare his defenses is going to be the one most likely to chew up any sort of assault force, possibly without twitching a finger to cast a spell.

[AmberImmortal]

Military tactics and trained black ops troops would be effective if deployed against virtually any threat, short of invulnerable mega-villains and giant alien robots, not just mages who need time to cast their spells.

You should also keep in mind that of nearly all possible villain types, even the mad scientist hardware geniuses, a knowledgeable mage with a base of operations and some time to prepare his defenses is going to be the one most likely to chew up any sort of assault force, possibly without twitching a finger to cast a spell.

Good point. On both counts. Any mage, really, could take on a group of even the best trained military team, if he knew about it. The element of surprise really plays here.

[Damian Magecraft]

Blindfolds, Gags, and handcuffs!

These eliminate the the wizards ability to cast instantly.

Spell magic involves spoken incantations that serve as a focus to create and cast magic.

Gestures are not a requirement of spell casting and binding a mages hands will have no effect on his ability to cast.

[slade the sniper]

Military tactics and trained black ops troops would be effective if deployed against virtually any threat, short of invulnerable mega-villains and giant alien robots, not just mages who need time to cast their spells.

You should also keep in mind that of nearly all possible villain types, even the mad scientist hardware geniuses, a knowledgeable mage with a base of operations and some time to prepare his defenses is going to be the one most likely to chew up any sort of assault force, possibly without twitching a finger to cast a spell.

Good point. On both counts. Any mage, really, could take on a group of even the best trained military team, if he knew about it. The element of surprise really plays here.

Hence why intelligence is so important to operations...regardless of tech type. If you know what the enemy is capable of early enough, you can find a way to mitigate it. Magic and psionics are very capable here, which really may be their strongest advantage...not actually their combat abilities...BUT that is not very exciting to role play. Intel analysis is not very...exciting

-STS

[Damian Magecraft]

Military tactics and trained black ops troops would be effective if deployed against virtually any threat, short of invulnerable mega-villains and giant alien robots, not just mages who need time to cast their spells.

You should also keep in mind that of nearly all possible villain types, even the mad scientist hardware geniuses, a knowledgeable mage with a base of operations and some time to prepare his defenses is going to be the one most likely to chew up any sort of assault force, possibly without twitching a finger to cast a spell.

Good point. On both counts. Any mage, really, could take on a group of even the best trained military team, if he knew about it. The element of surprise really plays here.

Hence why intelligence is so important to operations...regardless of tech type. If you know what the enemy is capable of early enough, you can find a way to mitigate it. Magic and psionics are very capable here, which really may be their strongest advantage...not actually their combat abilities...BUT that is not very exciting to role play. Intel analysis is not very...exciting

-STS

the popularity of shows like: Numb3rs, Bones, CSI, et al...
would seem to disagree with that stance.

[Damian Magecraft]

Blindfolds, Gags, and handcuffs!

These eliminate the the wizards ability to cast instantly.

Spell magic involves spoken incantations that serve as a focus to create and cast magic.

Gestures are not a requirement of spell casting and binding a mages hands will have no effect on his ability to cast.

I would argue against that since fire ball is an instant hit if you SEE the target - save/dodge of 16 or better.

Your right about the verbal component - However - Many spells are line of sight - If you cast at a window or bullet proof glass... you still hit the glass before you hit the target - If you hit the target on the other side at all... It is situational role playing - I'm offering examples on possibilities for an average beat cop - Not rewriting the book.

I didnt say the blindfold and gag were bad Ideas... (quite good in fact)
Just that binding the hands will not have the desired effect.
It will however limit him from certain spells (some spells do state they involve a gesture of some sort) but only those spells would be effected.

[AmberImmortal]

Well, it's possible that they can have these things. It's really quite easy to pull magic from other palladium games. They made it pretty easy. They encourage it, after all. Also, it's really easy just to take classes from other worlds. like the ley line walker, for instance.

[Ectoplasmic Bidet]

the real problem is that Wizards have No access to the typical magic traps and enchanted items that a Palladium aLchemist may know, because they don't generally learn Circles and diabolism, so they have to rely upon servants and limited magical servants. Give a HU wizard all that and it's over for the military. .. Allow them to apply magical effects on their person via touching runes or tatoos, and it's over too.

All a mage needs to provide themselves with a serious level of defense is the ability to cast the 10th level Wards spell. Multiple Wards can be placed over every door, window, door jam, floor tile, etc., until touching anything inside a base of operations will set intruders on fire, render them unconscious, and so on.

It only gets worse for intruders, especially if the mage does have the knowledge to create or summon magical servants; mummies, zombies, golems, demons, etc.

Of course, all this presumes the mage has had the time to invest hundreds or thousands of hours into ritual spellcasting and untold amounts of PPE, not to mention material resources, into protecting a base. Not every magic user will know the necessary spells and many others wouldn't have the inclination to create such death traps when magic makes escape so very simply.

[slade the sniper]

Military tactics and trained black ops troops would be effective if deployed against virtually any threat, short of invulnerable mega-villains and giant alien robots, not just mages who need time to cast their spells.

You should also keep in mind that of nearly all possible villain types, even the mad scientist hardware geniuses, a knowledgeable mage with a base of operations and some time to prepare his defenses is going to be the one most likely to chew up any sort of assault force, possibly without twitching a finger to cast a spell.

Good point. On both counts. Any mage, really, could take on a group of even the best trained military team, if he knew about it. The element of surprise really plays here.

Hence why intelligence is so important to operations...regardless of tech type. If you know what the enemy is capable of early enough, you can find a way to mitigate it. Magic and psionics are very capable here, which really may be their strongest advantage...not actually their combat abilities...BUT that is not very exciting to role play. Intel analysis is not very...exciting

-STS

the popularity of shows like: Numb3rs, Bones, CSI, et al...
would seem to disagree with that stance.

Very true...I guess that it is only my job that is just super boring

-STS

[slade the sniper]

the real problem is that Wizards have No access to the typical magic traps and enchanted items that a Palladium aLchemist may know, because they don't generally learn Circles and diabolism, so they have to rely upon servants and limited magical servants. Give a HU wizard all that and it's over for the military. .. Allow them to apply magical effects on their person via touching runes or tatoos, and it's over too.

All a mage needs to provide themselves with a serious level of defense is the ability to cast the 10th level Wards spell. Multiple Wards can be placed over every door, window, door jam, floor tile, etc., until touching anything inside a base of operations will set intruders on fire, render them unconscious, and so on.

It only gets worse for intruders, especially if the mage does have the knowledge to create or summon magical servants; mummies, zombies, golems, demons, etc.

Of course, all this presumes the mage has had the time to invest hundreds or thousands of hours into ritual spellcasting and untold amounts of PPE, not to mention material resources, into protecting a base. Not every magic user will know the necessary spells and many others wouldn't have the inclination to create such death traps when magic makes escape so very simply.

All of this is presuming that there is some over-riding concern for the mage to be taken alive. If the goal is simply to kill him, a GBU or TLAM would reduce the threat considerably. Also, there is always an echelonment of fires so you go from grunt with rifle/carbine/shotgun to light automatic weapons, to GPMG, to AGL, mortars, artillery, air, theater level assets, etc. There was a book I read once, The Last Dancer, where the UN had made lot of psionics and then decided to kill them off as a threat. Instead of a ground assault or arresting them, they dropped a nuke on them.

If a mage is "that" much of a threat, they will be met with greater force. But I will grant that if the wizard was prepared ahead of time for the type of assault he was going to get, they would be very capable of resisting it.

-STS

[AmberImmortal]

They may not have access to that kind of fire power however. They many only have access to well-trained soldiers. After all, most paramilitary groups don't ususally have a lot in the way of "toys".

[AmberImmortal]

Sanctuary spell Nullifies Swat Teams from doing anything to a mage.
how often does a wizard in HU have the ppe to cast that spell (.. never ).
Wlel not without a cabal of a d0zen wizards aaddinghalf their ppe to cast it
Impenetrable wall of force will stop a nuke.
Crimson wall of Lictalon will Ensare and trap forever the most dangerous of robots and foes.
However, the avergae wizard in hu does not have such spells.
they have half to 2 dozen spells they may know and the energy to maybe cast half.
wizards are hosed without access to magic items. as i said.

There are plenty of spells one can use to combat a military team that costs little P.P.E. You can completely thwart a militart team with spells from levels 1-5

Level one
Blinding flash (element of surprise, take out their sight)
cloud of smoke (good for concealment, like a smoke grenade)

Level two
Befuddle (hard to fight when you don't know what's going on)
Concealment (great for hidden weapons)
Mystic Alarm (early warning signal, give you some time to prepare)

Level Three
Energy bolt (who needs guns?)
Invisibility: simple ( self-explanatory)
Magic Armor (bullet proof on the fly)

Level Four
Fire bolt (Flamethrowers? Please)
Nightvision (If they can see in the dark, so can I)

Level Five
Circle of Flame (HA! You're trapped!)
Escape ("well, you see, sir, we had the subject contained but, he just got away somehow.")
Sleep (Hush little baby and don't shoot me in the face)


Hell, I could've stopped at three. for a clever mage, stopping a team of highly trained soldiers is...Academic.

[AmberImmortal]

Now I'm getting ideas for an Arcane Soldier.

[Iczer]

There are plenty of spells one can use to combat a military team that costs little P.P.E. You can completely thwart a militart team with spells from levels 1-5

Level one
Blinding flash (element of surprise, take out their sight)

Except that it screws with your allies as well. useful, but not very, as it's unlikely all your enemies will be clustered inside the 10 foot burst radius. the saving throw means about half will ignore this spell.

cloud of smoke (good for concealment, like a smoke grenade)

Yes it is. until they simply walk out of it.

Level two
Befuddle (hard to fight when you don't know what's going on)

That pesky saving throw again.

Concealment (great for hidden weapons)

It would be better to have those hidden weapons out in combat.

Mystic Alarm (early warning signal, give you some time to prepare)

No arguments

Level Three
Energy bolt (who needs guns?)

People who need to shoot more than twice a round

Invisibility: simple ( self-explanatory)

actually, it is. In my experience people tend to counter invisibility with area affects, such as grenades and spray fire.

Magic Armor (bullet proof on the fly)

More like bullet resistant. I'm pretty sure some trained soldiers can hit AR 18+ often enough that this should not be your only gambit.

Level Four
Fire bolt (Flamethrowers? Please)

only this flamethrower needs a strike roll. energy bolt at least hits unless they dodge.

Nightvision (If they can see in the dark, so can I)

Globe of daylight works better here. If they can see in the dark, a bright light can help you and possibly hurt them..

Level Five
Circle of Flame (HA! You're trapped!)

Except you can only use this on yourself. so...the caster is trapped.

Escape ("well, you see, sir, we had the subject contained but, he just got away somehow.")

no arguments

Sleep (Hush little baby and don't shoot me in the face)

wait...you are going to feed these soldiers?

Hell, I could've stopped at three. for a clever mage, stopping a team of highly trained soldiers is...Academic.[/quote]

a clever mage would throw out most of that spell list. the highly trained soldiers would likely just wipe the floor with the mage. Numbers, body armour, tactics and automatic fire makes the above spells sub par. First melee round should be spent casting invisibility, then armour of ithan, and then running the hell away before they spot you with thermographics of any sort.

Batts

[AmberImmortal]

Squads stick close together, especially when in a building, so the ten foot radius of the blinding flash is probably gonna get all of them. Half of them will probably save but, it's still a pretty good distraction seeing as how it can be cast 60 ft. away.

Cloud of smoke, much like blinding flash, is merely a quick escape method. It's only purpose is to conceal you for a moment so that you may find some cover or perhaps leave the battle area.

Befuddle. Saying "saving throw" is not a particularly good argument. Most spells have a saving throw of some kind and most of those spells are effective. If you simply say "saving throw" then you're basically saying that magic is almost entirely useless and if you *are* saying that then, you have little to no imagination. Besides, a confused opponent is an inneffective opponent. If you're already a decent mage (level four, perhaps) then your magic is that much more potent ( saving throw of 14, I believe)

Concealment. I can somewhat agree. what use is an invisible weapon in a firefight? not much. However, I was referring to those situations where the bullets aren't quite flying yet. At those points, it's quite nice to have a magically concealed handgun.

Energy bolt. I would also prefer to have a regular weapon handy but, it's also good to have a backup. Especially if they don't know you can do it.

Invisiblity. It is, in fact, self explanatory. How are you going to counter with grenades and spray fire if you don't even know there's any enemy to begin with? By the way, spray fire? Any soldier who just lets loose on a room simply because he can't see his enemy should probably go back to basic. You are right about the thermographics. Those are definitely a buzz kill for this spell. Fortunately, though they aren't uncommon, they don't ususally just issue them out to every fire team (especially Marines. Poor guys are criminally underfunded)

Magic Armor (Armor of Ithan). It's basically like having class 3 or 4 hard armor (not quite 4). It may not *always* stop a bullet but, it's invisible, weightless, noiseless, and you can just summon it into existence. Besides, just because you don't have a guaruntee off bullet stopping doesn't mean you shouldn't wear it. bullet "proof" vests are the same way. cops, however, still wear them and, frequently, thank God for them.

Fire bolt. +4 to strike is nothing to sneeze at. Energy bolt doesn't do as much damage and dodging an 18, though not particularly easy, is not ungodly difficult for a man to do. Also, you have to roll to strike with a flamethrower too and you don't get that bonus to do so, if I recall. Not to mention, that doding an energy blast (which fire bolt is considered to be) gives you one hefty penalty to do so. So I'd take the bolt over the flame thrower.

Nightvision. I didn't think about Globe of Daylight. That's a pretty good idea. If they're using nightvision throwing out the Globe is a really good blinding method. However, it also alerts them that you're there in the first place so it would be best to wait until you're ready to attack. In the meantime, if it's dark, I'd recommend casting nightvision so as not to give yourself away.

Circle of Flame. Point taken.

Sleep. I've used this one a hundred times in a hundred different settings. if you want to take an enemy out of combat then use this spell. It's a time honored classic. If you have not used Sleep to take out an enemy, you have not lived. Seriously though, really good way to get someone out of the fighting without having to kill their ass.


None of these things will work everytime. Nothing period works eveytime. Even with the saving throws these spells could save you in an encounter with a trained military team. You just have to know how to use them. I thought magic was crap for the longest time. I started looking into it finally after quite a few years of playing and I realized all the things that could be done with it. I started this thread so I could find ways to fight magic and now it seems almost that I'm defending it. That's kind of absurd. This thread was so I could ask ya'll to help me with a particular problem. So far, barring a few particularly helpful people, I've got nay-sayers and people who just want to debate. Neither are helping me any. I need this. I need some assistance. So, if you don't have anything to say except arguements and nay-saying then don't bother posting. (I'm not referring to you, Batts, just so you know. You're counter points were helpful so, please, continue to grace us with your presence.)


That is all.

P.S. If I came across as snarky during any of my counter points to Batts, I apologize, that was not my intention.

[AmberImmortal]

well said batts, the useful spells become things like Immobilize, Magic Net, Multiple Image, Fear, Heavy Breathing , Levitation ( of Blade traps), Apparition, Weightlessness, STench of hades, TIme Slip, and Wards, Speed of Snail, Reduce Self 6 inches, and Teleport Lesser (of Important items), and of course, Carpet of Adhesion.

Ooh, yes. Those are some very good spells. Agony, in the G.M's guide, is pretty good for disabling someone, if a bit unethical.

[13eowulf]

Warp Sound has a small ability that can practically negate a caster's ability to cast magic (even explicitly used as an example in the power).

[AmberImmortal]

Warp Sound has a small ability that can practically negate a caster's ability to cast magic (even explicitly used as an example in the power).

I know! It's awesome. Really good power for an anti-mage character. It would be really good for a mage bounty hunter or something.
That's a good one as far as powers go but, I was hoping to find something for the more human characters or just more mundane ones.

[13eowulf]

Warp Sound has a small ability that can practically negate a caster's ability to cast magic (even explicitly used as an example in the power).

I know! It's awesome. Really good power for an anti-mage character. It would be really good for a mage bounty hunter or something.
That's a good one as far as powers go but, I was hoping to find something for the more human characters or just more mundane ones.

Artifacts from Nightbane: Nightlands can have specific anti-magic abilities, those can be made available to Players

[13eowulf]

Any faction using anti magic artifacts in Nightbane tend to be Nightlord minions or the rare still atlantis foundation agent.
... unless your gm has artifacts being alot more common.

Well, actually, this being a new world of the OP's construction, drawing from several sources I was suggesting looking to artifacts as a possible use, the lore at this point being malleable.

[AmberImmortal]

I am, in fact, drawing from the artifacts froms both Nightbane and Rifts. Anti-magic warriors could be outfitted with the anti-magic weapons. Especially if they were part of a semi-religious/mystical order. What about technology though? You think having True Robots act as mage hunters is a good idea? They're immune to a good many of the spells mages cast. That takes half or more a casters options away right there.

[13eowulf]

I am, in fact, drawing from the artifacts froms both Nightbane and Rifts. Anti-magic warriors could be outfitted with the anti-magic weapons. Especially if they were part of a semi-religious/mystical order. What about technology though? You think having True Robots act as mage hunters is a good idea? They're immune to a good many of the spells mages cast. That takes half or more a casters options away right there.

Look in Aliens Unlimited and the Galaxy Guide, they have these Aberrant Energy Dampeners that can suppress magic, and they can be built into handcuffs. They also affect super powers and psionics.

[drewkitty ~..~]

I am, in fact, drawing from the artifacts from both Nightbane and Rifts. Anti-magic warriors could be outfitted with the anti-magic weapons. Especially if they were part of a semi-religious/mystical order. What about technology though? You think having True Robots act as mage hunters is a good idea? They're immune to a good many of the spells mages cast. That takes half or more a casters options away right there.

Look in Aliens Unlimited and the Galaxy Guide, they have these Aberrant Energy Dampeners that can suppress magic, and they can be built into handcuffs. They also affect super powers and psionics.

The word used is "Hamper" when talking about Magic and Bionics. In contrast to "Negate" when talking about super powers and psionics.

Thus they only make magic more difficult to create while they are warn, not impossible to create.
~I would say that the mage would require a full melee of consentration to cast one low level spell (1-5), and 2 melee for a mid level spell (6-10).
~Also, I would have it that they would only affect the making of new magic not magic already in place.
concentration
There is also the part that they are only available 'over the counter' to the TMC police force. (i.e.: Not available on earth.)

[AmberImmortal]

Reviewing the previous posts this thread recieved, I realized that I had made an error. Earlier, I reffered to nay-sayers and debaters. Though, it is true that there has been some nay-sayers in this thread, none have been particularly vocal. I have another thread going dealing with a more specific aspect of this same topic. I had gotten them confused. All of you *have* been quite helpful on this topic and i appreciate it. So, pardon the error and simply ignore that last bit in my counter points to Batts. Though the point still stands; If you want to nay-say and be negative and argue with everyone who posts then this is not the thread for you........Have a Fantabulous Day!

[AmberImmortal]

Actually guys, it doesn't matter really if the Aberrant Energy Dampener is TMC or not. I'm not using any of the races or organizations from AU anyway. I've made up all the races and humans are also prevalent in the Galaxy in this setting so don't worry about it. The Aberrant Energy Dampener is a good idea and Drewkitty, your ideas regarding it are pretty good and make a great deal of sense. If I decide to use it (it's probably that I will) Then I'll probably use it in the parameters you described, Drewkitty.

[Iczer]

P.S. If I came across as snarky during any of my counter points to Batts, I apologize, that was not my intention.

None taken.

I do disagree with your assertions though, so I'll cover some broad strokes.

I have been assuming a squad of professional soldiers. these are people who know how to maintain a low profile, can flush out enemies that are undercover, are not dazed and confused as soon as something a little odd comes along, can coordinate and plan, use communications and are armed with military grade ordinance. I also assume that a good amount of them will have a PE of 16+ which while not the intention, is great for those pesky saving throws vs Magic.

I'm also assuming that spells (still) take 2 actions to cast, and require you to speak, something that can give away your position.

The good mage needs to evade and retreat. He cannot win. Armour of Ithan lasts exactly not enough time against some short controlled bursts, and cannot protect you from a hand grenade where the AR is worthless. Spells that target single foes with a saving throw are tactically unsound.

Low level spells are great for low level challenges. a pair of knife weilding punks in a parking lot are pretty much toast against a mage with a handful of useful spells, as long as he prioritizes some defence. Your standard mage should be packing a weapon (and presumably has at least HTH basic).

Sleep. I've used this one a hundred times in a hundred different settings. if you want to take an enemy out of combat then use this spell. It's a time honored classic. If you have not used Sleep to take out an enemy, you have not lived. Seriously though, really good way to get someone out of the fighting without having to kill their ass

This gave me a bit of pause. The spell sleep works on an edible item, which I presume you must then feed to your target. I'm a bit surprised you get so much efficiency out of that.

To be constructive:

I'll reiterate the white noise generators. Failing the capacity for that anything that sets up some stunning effect (Tazers, stun guns really low frequency sounds) prevents actions (and ergo prevents speaking).

Mages are not known for their superhuman fighting ability. Grapple and pin is an option. You could argue that it's hard to speak when you are in a wrestle. failing that, get some hands around the mage's throat. If you can subdue him, get a gag and some cuffs on him.

Spell casting uses a lot of actions. There may be a call for someone to notice and attempt to interrupt if some silly sorcerer is chanting and waving.

Spellcasting uses PPE, a renewable but nonetheless depletable resource. Short guerrilla assaults to drain a mage of his supply. Or a distraction large enough for him to devote a lot of magic. obviously this requires a lot of groundwork to be laid.

and now that I think about it, smoke can distort vision, impede breathing and speaking and can be countered by the posessor (with appropriate equipment). get some tear gas on a mage and that should lock him down fairly quick.

Batts

[slade the sniper]

To add to this...
one squad is what will be going into the building, there will be more outside with all windows and doors covered by direct fire weapons. Each team will be 4 guys and even some fresh faced privates can clear a room in 1 melee round with a day's worth of training. Vs a veteran infantry platoon or a SOF Tier II, a single mage has zero chance unless he is teleporting out. The single mage is facing 20+ guys in hard armor with carbines, grenade launchers, hand grenades, etc. Depending on the threat the mage presents (as understood by the guys on the ground) he is going to get his door kicked in, torn off or blown off...followed by 4 angry men, possibly preceeded by a few flashbangs or maybe even a frag grenade or two. CS might be the order of the day, or if the mage wants to play hardball maybe he might get some ATGMs or a tank main gun round before the joes show up to ruin his day.

The wizard can not match the firepower nor the speed of engagement of modern weaponry. If that seems "unfair", it is. Combat is not about fair, it is about winning. The best and only chance a caster has of not dying is to be silent, invisible and gone and not duke it out. If the mage runs afoul of a government...well, lets hope he is ever vigilant for missiles from the sky or that the location of the mage is never discovered.

At the level of HU magic...wizards are not the uberpowerful forces of nature they are in other games...and frankly, even in other settings, with enough tech...magic users get shut down. It takes less resources and time to make 100 grunts than it does one useful level magic user. The logistics of magic just don't support magic vs tech warfare past a certain point... Additionally, the solitary nature of most magic user archetypes do not support a single mage vs platoons or companies of infantry, especially when supported by armor, air, intel, etc.

Stay hidden, stay alive needs to be the mantra of mages vs a tech world paradigm.

-STS

[AmberImmortal]

First things first: I had no idea sleep had to be cast on food. I've so many damn spells in my head that I tend to forgeet how some of them actually work. So forget sleep, clearly, though useful, it's useless in this particular situation.

Second. In rifts rules (pg. 190 of ultimate edition, I think) it states that spells of levels 1-5 only take one action to perform. In HU2 it states that you can only cast two of these spells per melee. They still only take one action though (they do not specifically state how many acitons are required). I'm using the magic rules from rifts primarily because they're more expansive and detailed. In HU2 it's a lot of guesswork and assumptions. It also states in the mystic study section that spell incantations are invoked under your breath (lower than a whisper) I'd wager that only a character with better than average hearing would be able to hear him from even ten or so feet away. You could cast invisiblity, nightvision, armor of ithan, and possibly more before they even knew you were in the building.

These spells are meant to be used in combination. In particular these spells are meant to be used by someone who actually knows what they're doing. You don't have to be loud and obnoxious when casting a spell. That would completely defeat the purpose of practically all spells involving stealth (concealment, shadow meld, invisiblity, etc.). It's possible to still be casting spells while invisible upon your enemies without them even knowing (one could rule that they would roll a perception check, which is in some of the palladium books, to see if they notice the spellcasters incantation) Thus, while invisible, you can cast your mage armor and nightvision (if it's dark) then stalk about, watching your enemies. Cast your befuddle on an opponent (or two if you're feeling lucky) Throw out the Globe of Daylight if they have nightvision goggles on. If not, you could just use blinding flash from afar, take out one or two of them blinded ones. If you're any good you could've taken out the confused one from earlier( befuddle) and using a mix of good spell use, thinking, surprise attack, and divide and conquer, it's not incoceivable that an intelligent mage could use even these standard spells to his adavantage in an encounter like this. Not to mention, that he may have access to some even better higher level spells.


Scenario, You're a second level Mystic study. You've gone into a building somehwere in a city in Thailand (why not?). You're searching for some information regarding an unscrupulous unmbrella corproation in their Asian practices. You cast mystic alarm on the entrance ways and maybe even some of the windows (again, why not?). Whilst searching, one of the alarms go off in your head. Someone's herre. Not wishing to be seen, you quickly cast invisibility on yourself. It's dark and you had already cast nightvision foregoing Globe of Daylight, thinking it would be conspicous for daylight to be coming out of a building at night. You investigate and discover that there is a fire team of well armed soldiers in the building. You can only assume that the corporation is on to you and that the team is here to either take you out...or in. So, instead of running away, like any sane person, under the cover of invisiblity, you decide instead to use your stealthy position to your advantage and take the team on. Albeit, not head on.


You start by throwing on Armor of Ithan. Just in case you catch a stray bullet or seven (hopefully, not seven). Invisible and protected you cast cloud of smoke on the group. There's no saving throw so, they are temporarily impaired. You find one in the back closest to you. You cast befuddle, hoping it works. It does, in this case (of course it does. I'm making a point. lol) He gets confused and wanders slightly from his team. You strike. He's impaired by the smoke and confused by your spell. He can't defend himself properly. The others hear the fighting but, can't find you in time to help their comrade. You take him out. After wards, you retreat.

You notice that they are wearing nightvision goggles for the darkness. You recast your own nightvision as well as invisibilty and your armor. They don't have high P.P.E costs so you think you're good on battery power. You make sure to keep your distance so that the team doesn't hear your muttering. You stalk your way back, once again surveying the soldiers. Using their nightvision against them you cast Globe of Daylight and blind them all. You cast paralysis: lesser on the frontmans gun arm. You engage him. With his eyes blinded and one arm useless he can't fight well, let alone shoot. He's not too difficult to take out. This time you use his own gun.

One more soldier is down and now you have a gun. There are only two or three left. Once bitten twice shy they take off their nightvision and turn on their flashlights instead. More wary then before they decide they will constantly keep in contact with eachother and stick very close. You have to step up your game. During your previous scuffle with the one armed man, he managed to take a knife to the chest as well as some stray fire from one of the blinded soldiers. Both bypassing your mystic armor. They're just flesh wounds but, it's something to worry about and be wary of. You were too gung ho about the one armed man. He surprised you and so did his buddy. Attacking at the front of the group, bad idea. You decide to step up the game. You cast fear (saving throw of 16 vs horror factor) Two of them fail. The other manages to shake it off. You decide that he is your next target. Without batting an eyelash you cast darkness over the soldiers and move in. The calm one is on edge but in control. He quickly decides to move forward at an increased pace in a straight line so as to escape the darkness quickly. he calls to the others shepherding the scaredy cats toward the edge of the darkness. You move in fast. Being able to see through your own darkness You take aim with your newly aquired weapon and take a shot (short burst). You're not military trained but, you come from texas. It was a recognized past time in your household to go into the backyard and shoot assault rifles so, you're not amazing but, you're a decent shot. You miss. They fire in response missing wildly as the darkness shrouds them. You fire again. This time you hit the burst is absorbed by the armor though and the soldier's fine. They shoot again and miss wildly again. They're completely blinded and can't take aim. You fire again, short burst and hit. This time, it's not absorbed by the armor the calm soldier is now down to HP. They don't fire this time but, instead, decide to try and exit the darkness. you take one more shot and nail the calm soldier again, this time, killing him.

There are only two soldiers left. You've had enough and you're sure they have as well. You decide against pursuing the attack and instead cast one last spell, Heavy breathing. The frightened soldiers are already still under the spell of fear and are easily scared off by the heavy breathing. (1-60% chance) They flee the building and you decide to duck out and make and exit as well.

My Lord, I am so long winded.

[AmberImmortal]

To add to this...
one squad is what will be going into the building, there will be more outside with all windows and doors covered by direct fire weapons. Each team will be 4 guys and even some fresh faced privates can clear a room in 1 melee round with a day's worth of training. Vs a veteran infantry platoon or a SOF Tier II, a single mage has zero chance unless he is teleporting out. The single mage is facing 20+ guys in hard armor with carbines, grenade launchers, hand grenades, etc. Depending on the threat the mage presents (as understood by the guys on the ground) he is going to get his door kicked in, torn off or blown off...followed by 4 angry men, possibly preceeded by a few flashbangs or maybe even a frag grenade or two. CS might be the order of the day, or if the mage wants to play hardball maybe he might get some ATGMs or a tank main gun round before the joes show up to ruin his day.

The wizard can not the firepower nor the speed of engagement of modern weaponry. If that seems "unfair", it is. Combat is not about fair, it is about winning. The best and only chance a caster has of not dying is to be silent, invisible and gone and not duke it out. If the mage runs afoul of a government...well, lets hope he is ever vigilant for missiles from the sky or that the location of the mage is never discovered.

At the level of HU magic...wizards are not the uberpowerful forces of nature they are in other games...and frankly, even in other settings, with enough tech...magic users get shut down. It takes less resources and time to make 100 grunts than it does one useful level magic user. The logistics of magic just don't support magic vs tech warfare past a certain point... Additionally, the solitary nature of most magic user archetypes do not support a single mage vs platoons or companies of infantry, especially when supported by armor, air, intel, etc.

Stay hidden, stay alive needs to be the mantra of mages vs a tech world paradigm.

-STS

The government simply would not waste nor risk that kind of firepower on *one* man. Mages have plenty to offer against a world of tech and weapons. Like I said, you just have to know what you're doing. There's no way that anyone (unless way over the top or paranoid) in a position of power is going to send a hunder or more soldiers for a solitary bookish type. One maybe two teams. tops. They surely won't be sending missles and tanks. That's a waste of resources. A single team is enough firepower to take out a mage. They have no need of more. However, it is an even match, whether or not either party realizes it. It all depends on who is prepared enough and who has the advantage. Even in your example of heavy firepower and a platoon of soldiers, the mage can simply teleport or go invisible to get away. poof, just like that. Assuming, of course, he has the spell and enough time to prepare it. (not impossible)


If magic were so easily thwarted then movies like "Now you see me" would be stupid and pointless.

I got two buddies. Both military. One's Army and the other's a Marine. Both of them served, saw combat, part of fire teams, etc. They play heroes and DnD and such (almost religously lol). For some reason, these two well seasoned veterans who have an intimate knowledge of the military and their tactics and capabilities pretty much always want to be mages. Particularly mages in Heroes and other palladiium games. Clearly, they don't think being a mage is a tactical disadvantage and they frequently, use spells in a tactical, military sort of way. Also, I should mention that when I say "well seasoned veterans" that I'm not just referring to their time in the military. They've been playing these games longer than I have.

Magic is about imagination. If all we ever do is think about the rules and what can't be done then we clearly aren't cut out for magic. Magic is about what *can* be done. There's a lot that can be done with it. Why would the military be bothering a mage in the first place? Because they are afraid/wary of what he can do. If they thought they could just take out a mage whenever they wanted then they wouldn't bother at all. Magic is power not parlor tricks. The mystic study wasn't made to amuse children at birthday parties. He was made to wield powerful forces. I think that powerful forces are enough to defend yourself against bullets and explosions.

I will agree though that the Mystic Study class isn't as powerful as that of the mages of rifts. which is why I'm pulling things from rifts.

[AmberImmortal]

here's a side note: ... your Gm is flabbergasted by a +15 to dodge, but I can easily make a character that gets +19 to strike..

Its all abut the natural twenties... Try matching that roll on a continuous bases... Auto hit or auto dodge crit.... Love the fact that there is a solid answer to the crazy bonus added to rolls a person might get. A roll of 20 out of luck beats all bonuses any day!.

Um, you know guys I only wrote that 'cause I thought it was amusing. Just sayin'.

[AmberImmortal]

Not to get off topic but, Gladiator Quickflex?

[drewkitty ~..~]

Not to get off topic but, Gladiator Quickflex?

A Quicklfex alien with the Gladiator OCC from Mercenary Adventures and A Universal Kittani hoplite armor: .. + 16 or 21? Leap Dodge. at level 1.

He is talking Rifts in the HU forum.

[AmberImmortal]

Not to get off topic but, Gladiator Quickflex?

A Quicklfex alien with the Gladiator OCC from Mercenary Adventures and A Universal Kittani hoplite armor: .. + 16 or 21? Leap Dodge. at level 1.

He is talking Rifts in the HU forum.

To be fair, I'm talking rifts too. I started this thread as heroes but, I'm using a lot more than just heroes. I'll take anything really.

[slade the sniper]

These spells are meant to be used in combination. In particular these spells are meant to be used by someone who actually knows what they're doing. You don't have to be loud and obnoxious when casting a spell. That would completely defeat the purpose of practically all spells involving stealth (concealment, shadow meld, invisiblity, etc.). It's possible to still be casting spells while invisible upon your enemies without them even knowing (one could rule that they would roll a perception check, which is in some of the palladium books, to see if they notice the spellcasters incantation) Thus, while invisible, you can cast your mage armor and nightvision (if it's dark) then stalk about, watching your enemies. Cast your befuddle on an opponent (or two if you're feeling lucky) Throw out the Globe of Daylight if they have nightvision goggles on. If not, you could just use blinding flash from afar, take out one or two of them blinded ones. If you're any good you could've taken out the confused one from earlier( befuddle) and using a mix of good spell use, thinking, surprise attack, and divide and conquer, it's not incoceivable that an intelligent mage could use even these standard spells to his adavantage in an encounter like this. Not to mention, that he may have access to some even better higher level spells.

Would blinding flash or daylight have any effect on you?

Does concealment/shadow meld/invisibility work against ALI, IR and Thermal?

The time factor has to taken into account. They will be in the room and shooting you in 15 seconds. Figure 4 actions per team member, 4 members...that is 16 actions you have to your 4. Teams do not split up unless they have to, they pass through as 4 members and in some units they stack 5 deep to fill in for a man down. The man down drill is practiced by good teams and they will not lose much initiative taking a casualty.

Scenario, You're a second level Mystic study. You've gone into a building somehwere in a city in Thailand (why not?). You're searching for some information regarding an unscrupulous umbrella corporation in their Asian practices. You cast mystic alarm on the entrance ways and maybe even some of the windows (again, why not?). Whilst searching, one of the alarms go off in your head. Someone's here. Not wishing to be seen, you quickly cast invisibility on yourself. It's dark and you had already cast nightvision foregoing Globe of Daylight, thinking it would be conspicuous for daylight to be coming out of a building at night. You investigate and discover that there is a fire team of well armed soldiers in the building. You can only assume that the corporation is on to you and that the team is here to either take you out...or in. So, instead of running away, like any sane person, under the cover of invisibility, you decide instead to use your stealthy position to your advantage and take the team on. Albeit, not head on.


You start by throwing on Armor of Ithan. Just in case you catch a stray bullet or seven (hopefully, not seven). Invisible and protected you cast cloud of smoke on the group. There's no saving throw so, they are temporarily impaired. You find one in the back closest to you. You cast befuddle, hoping it works. It does, in this case (of course it does. I'm making a point. lol) He gets confused and wanders slightly from his team. You strike. He's impaired by the smoke and confused by your spell. He can't defend himself properly. The others hear the fighting but, can't find you in time to help their comrade. You take him out. After wards, you retreat.

The standard in CQB is the controlled pair, or if you really high speed you can go for the double tap (not the same thing ). Of course there is always the failure drill/Mozambique drill if are good enough (and there are LOT of units that train to this standard) This will be done by each member of the team for each target from their points of domination. That is a lot of bullets...

Cloud of smoke is nice, but it affects you as well. Since sometimes objectives are on fire due to tracers, bad guys burning evidence, flash bangs and smoke grenades...it is an assumed obstacle. Additionally, the engagement ranges are close (long hallways, maybe 10 meters? at max) so it is not as much concealment as you think it is.

The team is pretty much always within a double arms length of each other to rapidly extract wounded members and grab ammo/equipment off of each other (as shown in the training video below).

You notice that they are wearing nightvision goggles for the darkness. You recast your own nightvision as well as invisibilty and your armor. They don't have high P.P.E costs so you think you're good on battery power. You make sure to keep your distance so that the team doesn't hear your muttering. You stalk your way back, once again surveying the soldiers. Using their nightvision against them you cast Globe of Daylight and blind them all. You cast paralysis: lesser on the frontmans gun arm. You engage him. With his eyes blinded and one arm useless he can't fight well, let alone shoot. He's not too difficult to take out. This time you use his own gun.

Generally weapons are secured to the shooter via a sling for longarms and a lanyard for pistols. Also, weapons retention is taught. Firing weak hand is taught. Combatives and MCMAP are specifically designed to be used while injured and in full kit in order to open space and engage with weapons or to grapple an opponent while your buddy shoots them.

The closeness of the team is working against you.

One more soldier is down and now you have a gun. There are only two or three left. Once bitten twice shy they take off their nightvision and turn on their flashlights instead. More wary then before they decide they will constantly keep in contact with each other and stick very close. You have to step up your game. During your previous scuffle with the one armed man, he managed to take a knife to the chest as well as some stray fire from one of the blinded soldiers. Both bypassing your mystic armor. They're just flesh wounds but, it's something to worry about and be wary of. You were too gung ho about the one armed man. He surprised you and so did his buddy. Attacking at the front of the group, bad idea. You decide to step up the game. You cast fear (saving throw of 16 vs horror factor) Two of them fail. The other manages to shake it off. You decide that he is your next target. Without batting an eyelash you cast darkness over the soldiers and move in. The calm one is on edge but in control. He quickly decides to move forward at an increased pace in a straight line so as to escape the darkness quickly. he calls to the others shepherding the scaredy cats toward the edge of the darkness. You move in fast. Being able to see through your own darkness You take aim with your newly aquired weapon and take a shot (short burst). You're not military trained but, you come from Texas. You get +10 cool points for this! It was a recognized past time in your household to go into the backyard and shoot assault rifles so, you're not amazing but, you're a decent shot. You miss. They fire in response missing wildly as the darkness shrouds them. You fire again. This time you hit the burst is absorbed by the armor though and the soldier's fine. They shoot again and miss wildly again. They're completely blinded and can't take aim. You fire again, short burst and hit. This time, it's not absorbed by the armor the calm soldier is now down to HP. They don't fire this time but, instead, decide to try and exit the darkness. you take one more shot and nail the calm soldier again, this time, killing him.

The underbarrel flashlights are pretty bright, they have a blinding effect when rapidly shined on at a target. But if they were stupid enough to ditch the NVG's, they deserve it. Also, using monocular optics (AN/PVS-14's and others) precludes this. The fear is a nice touch tho.

There are only two soldiers left. You've had enough and you're sure they have as well. You decide against pursuing the attack and instead cast one last spell, Heavy breathing. The frightened soldiers are already still under the spell of fear and are easily scared off by the heavy breathing. (1-60% chance) They flee the building and you decide to duck out and make and exit as well.

My Lord, I am so long winded.

If they are spooked by that...they deserve to get shot in the back on the way out...

The government simply would not waste nor risk that kind of firepower on *one* man. Mages have plenty to offer against a world of tech and weapons. Like I said, you just have to know what you're doing. There's no way that anyone (unless way over the top or paranoid) in a position of power is going to send a hunder or more soldiers for a solitary bookish type. One maybe two teams. tops. They surely won't be sending missles and tanks. That's a waste of resources. A single team is enough firepower to take out a mage. They have no need of more. However, it is an even match, whether or not either party realizes it. It all depends on who is prepared enough and who has the advantage. Even in your example of heavy firepower and a platoon of soldiers, the mage can simply teleport or go invisible to get away. poof, just like that. Assuming, of course, he has the spell and enough time to prepare it. (not impossible)

The second video was probably all for one target. The Osama raid was for 1 target. I have rolled a company with air support and attached snipers for 1 target. Uday and Qusay Hussein got rolled by almost a battalion after a false start or two...

If magic were so easily thwarted then movies like "Now you see me" would be stupid and pointless.

Um...okay...??

I got two buddies. Both military. One's Army and the other's a Marine. Both of them served, saw combat, part of fire teams, etc. They play heroes and DnD and such (almost religously lol). For some reason, these two well seasoned veterans who have an intimate knowledge of the military and their tactics and capabilities pretty much always want to be mages. Particularly mages in Heroes and other palladiium games. Clearly, they don't think being a mage is a tactical disadvantage and they frequently, use spells in a tactical, military sort of way. Also, I should mention that when I say "well seasoned veterans" that I'm not just referring to their time in the military. They've been playing these games longer than I have.

Everyone's war is different. My personal experiences differ from theirs.

Magic is about imagination. If all we ever do is think about the rules and what can't be done then we clearly aren't cut out for magic. Magic is about what *can* be done. There's a lot that can be done with it. Why would the military be bothering a mage in the first place? Because they are afraid/wary of what he can do. If they thought they could just take out a mage whenever they wanted then they wouldn't bother at all. Magic is power not parlor tricks. The mystic study wasn't made to amuse children at birthday parties. He was made to wield powerful forces. I think that powerful forces are enough to defend yourself against bullets and explosions.

I will agree though that the Mystic Study class isn't as powerful as that of the mages of rifts. which is why I'm pulling things from rifts.

I agree with the above. As for why the mage is the target... who knows... lots of reasons to end up on a target list.

Well, my money is still on these guys:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dRRMFVZXBls Training
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dt4V5cCVVGk Real World

I would say that a smart mage vs a fire team the chances of the mage escaping are good. The odds drop dramatically as the opposition increases. I DO think that a good mage is at the least the equal of the average modern soldier, but the strength of the military is teamwork, whereas for magic, that does not tend to be the case. Each side will play to their strengths, and it is my opinion that the teamwork and training and equipment of the military is enough to defeat a singular mage.

Good discussion

-STS

[13eowulf]

These spells are meant to be used in combination. In particular these spells are meant to be used by someone who actually knows what they're doing. You don't have to be loud and obnoxious when casting a spell. That would completely defeat the purpose of practically all spells involving stealth (concealment, shadow meld, invisiblity, etc.). It's possible to still be casting spells while invisible upon your enemies without them even knowing (one could rule that they would roll a perception check, which is in some of the palladium books, to see if they notice the spellcasters incantation) Thus, while invisible, you can cast your mage armor and nightvision (if it's dark) then stalk about, watching your enemies. Cast your befuddle on an opponent (or two if you're feeling lucky) Throw out the Globe of Daylight if they have nightvision goggles on. If not, you could just use blinding flash from afar, take out one or two of them blinded ones. If you're any good you could've taken out the confused one from earlier( befuddle) and using a mix of good spell use, thinking, surprise attack, and divide and conquer, it's not incoceivable that an intelligent mage could use even these standard spells to his adavantage in an encounter like this. Not to mention, that he may have access to some even better higher level spells.

Would blinding flash or daylight have any effect on you?

Does concealment/shadow meld/invisibility work against ALI, IR and Thermal?

The time factor has to taken into account. They will be in the room and shooting you in 15 seconds. Figure 4 actions per team member, 4 members...that is 16 actions you have to your 4. Teams do not split up unless they have to, they pass through as 4 members and in some units they stack 5 deep to fill in for a man down. The man down drill is practiced by good teams and they will not lose much initiative taking a casualty.

Scenario, You're a second level Mystic study. You've gone into a building somehwere in a city in Thailand (why not?). You're searching for some information regarding an unscrupulous umbrella corporation in their Asian practices. You cast mystic alarm on the entrance ways and maybe even some of the windows (again, why not?). Whilst searching, one of the alarms go off in your head. Someone's here. Not wishing to be seen, you quickly cast invisibility on yourself. It's dark and you had already cast nightvision foregoing Globe of Daylight, thinking it would be conspicuous for daylight to be coming out of a building at night. You investigate and discover that there is a fire team of well armed soldiers in the building. You can only assume that the corporation is on to you and that the team is here to either take you out...or in. So, instead of running away, like any sane person, under the cover of invisibility, you decide instead to use your stealthy position to your advantage and take the team on. Albeit, not head on.


You start by throwing on Armor of Ithan. Just in case you catch a stray bullet or seven (hopefully, not seven). Invisible and protected you cast cloud of smoke on the group. There's no saving throw so, they are temporarily impaired. You find one in the back closest to you. You cast befuddle, hoping it works. It does, in this case (of course it does. I'm making a point. lol) He gets confused and wanders slightly from his team. You strike. He's impaired by the smoke and confused by your spell. He can't defend himself properly. The others hear the fighting but, can't find you in time to help their comrade. You take him out. After wards, you retreat.

The standard in CQB is the controlled pair, or if you really high speed you can go for the double tap (not the same thing ). Of course there is always the failure drill/Mozambique drill if are good enough (and there are LOT of units that train to this standard) This will be done by each member of the team for each target from their points of domination. That is a lot of bullets...

Cloud of smoke is nice, but it affects you as well. Since sometimes objectives are on fire due to tracers, bad guys burning evidence, flash bangs and smoke grenades...it is an assumed obstacle. Additionally, the engagement ranges are close (long hallways, maybe 10 meters? at max) so it is not as much concealment as you think it is.

The team is pretty much always within a double arms length of each other to rapidly extract wounded members and grab ammo/equipment off of each other (as shown in the training video below).

You notice that they are wearing nightvision goggles for the darkness. You recast your own nightvision as well as invisibilty and your armor. They don't have high P.P.E costs so you think you're good on battery power. You make sure to keep your distance so that the team doesn't hear your muttering. You stalk your way back, once again surveying the soldiers. Using their nightvision against them you cast Globe of Daylight and blind them all. You cast paralysis: lesser on the frontmans gun arm. You engage him. With his eyes blinded and one arm useless he can't fight well, let alone shoot. He's not too difficult to take out. This time you use his own gun.

Generally weapons are secured to the shooter via a sling for longarms and a lanyard for pistols. Also, weapons retention is taught. Firing weak hand is taught. Combatives and MCMAP are specifically designed to be used while injured and in full kit in order to open space and engage with weapons or to grapple an opponent while your buddy shoots them.

The closeness of the team is working against you.

One more soldier is down and now you have a gun. There are only two or three left. Once bitten twice shy they take off their nightvision and turn on their flashlights instead. More wary then before they decide they will constantly keep in contact with each other and stick very close. You have to step up your game. During your previous scuffle with the one armed man, he managed to take a knife to the chest as well as some stray fire from one of the blinded soldiers. Both bypassing your mystic armor. They're just flesh wounds but, it's something to worry about and be wary of. You were too gung ho about the one armed man. He surprised you and so did his buddy. Attacking at the front of the group, bad idea. You decide to step up the game. You cast fear (saving throw of 16 vs horror factor) Two of them fail. The other manages to shake it off. You decide that he is your next target. Without batting an eyelash you cast darkness over the soldiers and move in. The calm one is on edge but in control. He quickly decides to move forward at an increased pace in a straight line so as to escape the darkness quickly. he calls to the others shepherding the scaredy cats toward the edge of the darkness. You move in fast. Being able to see through your own darkness You take aim with your newly aquired weapon and take a shot (short burst). You're not military trained but, you come from Texas. You get +10 cool points for this! It was a recognized past time in your household to go into the backyard and shoot assault rifles so, you're not amazing but, you're a decent shot. You miss. They fire in response missing wildly as the darkness shrouds them. You fire again. This time you hit the burst is absorbed by the armor though and the soldier's fine. They shoot again and miss wildly again. They're completely blinded and can't take aim. You fire again, short burst and hit. This time, it's not absorbed by the armor the calm soldier is now down to HP. They don't fire this time but, instead, decide to try and exit the darkness. you take one more shot and nail the calm soldier again, this time, killing him.

The underbarrel flashlights are pretty bright, they have a blinding effect when rapidly shined on at a target. But if they were stupid enough to ditch the NVG's, they deserve it. Also, using monocular optics (AN/PVS-14's and others) precludes this. The fear is a nice touch tho.

There are only two soldiers left. You've had enough and you're sure they have as well. You decide against pursuing the attack and instead cast one last spell, Heavy breathing. The frightened soldiers are already still under the spell of fear and are easily scared off by the heavy breathing. (1-60% chance) They flee the building and you decide to duck out and make and exit as well.

My Lord, I am so long winded.

If they are spooked by that...they deserve to get shot in the back on the way out...

The government simply would not waste nor risk that kind of firepower on *one* man. Mages have plenty to offer against a world of tech and weapons. Like I said, you just have to know what you're doing. There's no way that anyone (unless way over the top or paranoid) in a position of power is going to send a hunder or more soldiers for a solitary bookish type. One maybe two teams. tops. They surely won't be sending missles and tanks. That's a waste of resources. A single team is enough firepower to take out a mage. They have no need of more. However, it is an even match, whether or not either party realizes it. It all depends on who is prepared enough and who has the advantage. Even in your example of heavy firepower and a platoon of soldiers, the mage can simply teleport or go invisible to get away. poof, just like that. Assuming, of course, he has the spell and enough time to prepare it. (not impossible)

The second video was probably all for one target. The Osama raid was for 1 target. I have rolled a company with air support and attached snipers for 1 target. Uday and Qusay Hussein got rolled by almost a battalion after a false start or two...

If magic were so easily thwarted then movies like "Now you see me" would be stupid and pointless.

Um...okay...??

I got two buddies. Both military. One's Army and the other's a Marine. Both of them served, saw combat, part of fire teams, etc. They play heroes and DnD and such (almost religously lol). For some reason, these two well seasoned veterans who have an intimate knowledge of the military and their tactics and capabilities pretty much always want to be mages. Particularly mages in Heroes and other palladiium games. Clearly, they don't think being a mage is a tactical disadvantage and they frequently, use spells in a tactical, military sort of way. Also, I should mention that when I say "well seasoned veterans" that I'm not just referring to their time in the military. They've been playing these games longer than I have.

Everyone's war is different. My personal experiences differ from theirs.

Magic is about imagination. If all we ever do is think about the rules and what can't be done then we clearly aren't cut out for magic. Magic is about what *can* be done. There's a lot that can be done with it. Why would the military be bothering a mage in the first place? Because they are afraid/wary of what he can do. If they thought they could just take out a mage whenever they wanted then they wouldn't bother at all. Magic is power not parlor tricks. The mystic study wasn't made to amuse children at birthday parties. He was made to wield powerful forces. I think that powerful forces are enough to defend yourself against bullets and explosions.

I will agree though that the Mystic Study class isn't as powerful as that of the mages of rifts. which is why I'm pulling things from rifts.

I agree with the above. As for why the mage is the target... who knows... lots of reasons to end up on a target list.

Well, my money is still on these guys:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dRRMFVZXBls Training
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dt4V5cCVVGk Real World

I would say that a smart mage vs a fire team the chances of the mage escaping are good. The odds drop dramatically as the opposition increases. I DO think that a good mage is at the least the equal of the average modern soldier, but the strength of the military is teamwork, whereas for magic, that does not tend to be the case. Each side will play to their strengths, and it is my opinion that the teamwork and training and equipment of the military is enough to defeat a singular mage.

Good discussion

-STS

Now I realize I might be poking a hornets nest here, but I am genuinely interested:
How would a militarily-trained mage affect this scenario? Most predominantly a Battle Mage, who is both Soldier and Spell Caster. But also Combat Mages or Mystic Knights, who are both trained as soldiers in addition to their mystical abilities.