WP Flamethrower and you. or a Dragon? VS. you.

[Greyaxe]

Hey.
I am developing an adult dragon to use as a primary antagonist to the PC party. He of course has a breath weapon (13th level so he has both cone and concentrated breath attacks. My questions revolve around bonuses to strike. I was thinking adding WP flamethrower to his list of skills and applying that bonus to the breath attacks. Any thoughts on that?

Therefore i would add his PP bonus and the WP flamethrower bonus.

[Grand Paladin]

That could work, or alternatively you can consider using WP: Targeting, since the idea is that WP is a skill/training using some sort of mechanical device that lets loose a stream of fire. To me, a dragon's (or other firebreathing critter) ability to hit it's intended target, is kind of like a baseball pitcher, or football quarterback throwing to hit the mark precisely (right distance, timing, able to gauge a moving target.. etc). But that's my thought only.

[Greyaxe]

That could work, or alternatively you can consider using WP: Targeting, since the idea is that WP is a skill/training using some sort of mechanical device that lets loose a stream of fire. To me, a dragon's (or other firebreathing critter) ability to hit it's intended target, is kind of like a baseball pitcher, or football quarterback throwing to hit the mark precisely (right distance, timing, able to gauge a moving target.. etc). But that's my thought only.

Targeting, what a great idea. WOuld you also increase the base range using this skill as well or just the WP to strike?

[Grand Paladin]

Targeting, what a great idea. WOuld you also increase the base range using this skill as well or just the WP to strike?

I don't think I would, the range increases WP: Targeting describes is based on the physical strength attribute and type (normal, bionic, robotic, supernatural) of the thrower. I'd stick to the strike bonuses only. But, if you think you can reasonably come up with an explanation as to why it should, dude, go right ahead- it's your call as the GM.

[Giant2005]

I certainly wouldn't use both PP and WP Flamethrower bonuses together - they are mutually exclusive. The PP attribute can never apply to a Flamethrower.
PP Bonuses and WP Targeting do work though but then again, it is your game and you can do what you like.

[Greyaxe]

Giant2005 you are right the PP bonus and the WP targeting is a little high, +10 for the dragon. very high strike bonus. I have decided to moderate that and go with a HTH strike bonus (just the bonuses from the HTH Dragon) and targeting. which at level 13 is +7, still very dangerous but not TPK dangerous. I would like to thank everyone for great ideas and insight.

[Grand Paladin]

Have fun!

[Nekira Sudacne]

Hey.
I am developing an adult dragon to use as a primary antagonist to the PC party. He of course has a breath weapon (13th level so he has both cone and concentrated breath attacks. My questions revolve around bonuses to strike. I was thinking adding WP flamethrower to his list of skills and applying that bonus to the breath attacks. Any thoughts on that?

Therefore i would add his PP bonus and the WP flamethrower bonus.

Why would an adult dragon be relying on his dinky little breath weapon to do any real damage to a party of PC's when his magic spells and oodles of PPE will be far more effective in actually winning the fight.

It could just be me, but I always like the idea of dragons metamorphing into small rabbits while invisible and casting carpet of adhesion and meteor until everyone dies.

The whole "Fly around breathing fire" works in fantasy settings where arrows don't really threaten them and they tend to run out of arrows quickly. In a world with rail guns with ranges 20x their breath weapon, dragons are gonna get smart.

EDIT: Almost forgot to answer the question! I would settle for just adding the standard +4 strike for energy blast powers (It's copied and pasted from Heroes Unlimited but it's still in the rifts book).

Don't get me wrong, also. the dragon breath weapons ARE cool, but they just don't do enough damage to be worth using, IMHO, at least assuming they're against a well equiped group.

[Vrykolas2k]

Depends on the dragon, how good the breath weapon is... personally I've always been fond of the Night Stalkers, especially since Dragons and Gods came out...
As for the question, I've always just added the PP bonus.

[Greyaxe]

Hey.
I am developing an adult dragon to use as a primary antagonist to the PC party. He of course has a breath weapon (13th level so he has both cone and concentrated breath attacks. My questions revolve around bonuses to strike. I was thinking adding WP flamethrower to his list of skills and applying that bonus to the breath attacks. Any thoughts on that?

Therefore i would add his PP bonus and the WP flamethrower bonus.

Why would an adult dragon be relying on his dinky little breath weapon to do any real damage to a party of PC's when his magic spells and oodles of PPE will be far more effective in actually winning the fight.

It could just be me, but I always like the idea of dragons metamorphing into small rabbits while invisible and casting carpet of adhesion and meteor until everyone dies.

The whole "Fly around breathing fire" works in fantasy settings where arrows don't really threaten them and they tend to run out of arrows quickly. In a world with rail guns with ranges 20x their breath weapon, dragons are gonna get smart.

EDIT: Almost forgot to answer the question! I would settle for just adding the standard +4 strike for energy blast powers (It's copied and pasted from Heroes Unlimited but it's still in the rifts book).

Don't get me wrong, also. the dragon breath weapons ARE cool, but they just don't do enough damage to be worth using, IMHO, at least assuming they're against a well equipped group.

To answer your question, why? Cause its cool. I know that is campy but that is the reason. Further i like the fire breathing bunny thing. and i will definitely use carpet of adhesion and meteor. Thanks for the tip.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Hey.
I am developing an adult dragon to use as a primary antagonist to the PC party. He of course has a breath weapon (13th level so he has both cone and concentrated breath attacks. My questions revolve around bonuses to strike. I was thinking adding WP flamethrower to his list of skills and applying that bonus to the breath attacks. Any thoughts on that?

Therefore i would add his PP bonus and the WP flamethrower bonus.

Why would an adult dragon be relying on his dinky little breath weapon to do any real damage to a party of PC's when his magic spells and oodles of PPE will be far more effective in actually winning the fight.

It could just be me, but I always like the idea of dragons metamorphing into small rabbits while invisible and casting carpet of adhesion and meteor until everyone dies.

The whole "Fly around breathing fire" works in fantasy settings where arrows don't really threaten them and they tend to run out of arrows quickly. In a world with rail guns with ranges 20x their breath weapon, dragons are gonna get smart.

EDIT: Almost forgot to answer the question! I would settle for just adding the standard +4 strike for energy blast powers (It's copied and pasted from Heroes Unlimited but it's still in the rifts book).

Don't get me wrong, also. the dragon breath weapons ARE cool, but they just don't do enough damage to be worth using, IMHO, at least assuming they're against a well equipped group.

To answer your question, why? Cause its cool. I know that is campy but that is the reason. Further i like the fire breathing bunny thing. and i will definitely use carpet of adhesion and meteor. Thanks for the tip.

Well that's fine! Nothing wrong with being cool

But I DO suggest you at least give them some magic item or spell that helps protect aginst anti-air fire if they'll be flying around. I learned that the hard way about how even 8000 MDC can be depeleted in a big hurry if they're flying out in the open in Rifts.

[Akashic Soldier]

Why would an adult dragon be relying on his dinky little breath weapon to do any real damage to a party of PC's when his magic spells and oodles of PPE will be far more effective in actually winning the fight.

Because its cool and that's how he learned to do it before he had oodles of PPE and every spell known to man?

Remember, dragons stagnate upon "evolving" into adulthood. So a hatchling dragon that found most of his problems were solved with his breath weapon is going to rely on that in adulthood.

Also, fire-breathing dragons are cool and one of the staples of pen and paper RPGs. It might be mechanically more effective to throw out earth-shattering spells but it won't be as cool or fun as when one of the players is able to generate a telekinetic bubble to part the breath weapon and protect the rest of the party, etc.

I'm not saying play the dragon dumb. I am just saying that the point of the game is to have fun and fighting an adult dragon is next to impossible without some serious magic and obscure spells. I've been trying to find a way of legitimately doing it for months and short of some 15th level spells and a box made out of spells of legend there isn't many ways to do it. As they exist currently, like Gods, adult dragons can just kick ass until they're sort of hurt... vanish... magically heal themselves or regenerate and then return (Ambush! Who ever fails their Perception Rolls loses their actions!) and slaughter a party. Whenever it chooses. Admittedly, it has to know where they are... but again... with remote viewing (psi-power or spell) that is easy enough.

Whats my point?

That blows and isn't typically fun. You might as well have Zeus show up and pummel a bunch of Cyber Rats than laugh at your players. I am betting Greyaxe just wanted to do the classic dragon battle and didn't realize/care that if played a certain way adult dragons are on par with some greater deities.

EDIT: Sorry, didn't see your last post.

[Nekira Sudacne]

All I can say to that Akashic, is you have severly underestimated the kind of pain missile barrages from multiple sources can lay down. volleys of 4+ can't be dodged, a dragon in adult form has no way to shoot them down, and while the strictly optional dragon HTH allows them to attempt to teleport dodge, which you could houserule as letting them dodge missiles, still won't help if your using Smart missiles that can track where the dragon moved and shift to re-aim. so if 2d6*10 medium range smart missiles deal an average of 70 MDC individually, and say you lay them down in batteries of six, that's 420 damage per volley, that the dragon can't avoid. just have 10-20 batteries laid out and it's an instant kill if they don't already have a defense in place. and that's to say nothing of the ground fire they have to deal with from infantry and power armor and robots alike.

Bottom line, dragons cannot attack any major military installation in Rifts without being shot out of the sky like big, slow moving ducks without relying on some major magic to protect them, or (more likely) disgusing themselves as something other than dragons, or simply teleporting past the anti-air defences. all of which are perfectly valid and smart things to do! I'm just saying that dragons really don't have any business flying around in the sky as dragons when they go on the attack--because that requires everyone else in the game to NOT be played smart.

I'll also note that Anti-magic cloud + a bunch of tanks and power armor is basically a garenteed kill if they're caught by it.

[Akashic Soldier]

All I can say to that Akashic, is you have severly underestimated the kind of pain missile barrages from multiple sources can lay down.

That was my first plan. I'll explain as you go on.

volleys of 4+ can't be dodged, a dragon in adult form has no way to shoot them down.

Assuming their breath weapon isn't a gas, they have their breath weapon which can be used as a simultaneous attack and is large enough and typically will inflict enough damage to destroy a missile volley.

and while the strictly optional dragon HTH allows them to attempt to teleport dodge, which you could houserule as letting them dodge missiles

Theoretically, the missiles cannot be dodged because they strike from all attack points since rationally its not like when you fire four missiles all of a sudden they become so large that they cannot be dodged or move faster so that they cannot be dodged. So, I had assumed that they'd be able to port out of a volley. Plus, our Dragon player has done it so my character would assume the older dragon could do the same. That is interesting though, I had forgotten hand to hand Dragon was Optional because in every game I have ever played with a dragon in it they have had it.

still won't help if your using Smart missiles that can track where the dragon moved and shift to re-aim. so if 2d6*10 medium range smart missiles deal an average of 70 MDC individually, and say you lay them down in batteries of six, that's 420 damage per volley, that the dragon can't avoid. just have 10-20 batteries laid out and it's an instant kill if they don't already have a defense in place. and that's to say nothing of the ground fire they have to deal with from infantry and power armor and robots alike.

The problem that I have with that (though less of a problem than the teleport and what I will follow your comments with) is this...

"Smart missiles" and guided missiles are a rarity on Rifts Earth and typically reserved only for the largest (and again, rarest) of long-range missiles.

So finding medium range smart missiles is no walk in the park. They're rare. This is further extrapolated upon again later when the book says...

Smart missiles are self-guided smart bombs which can be programmed to seek out and attack a specific target, but they are rare and never found in a mini-missile.

So, its not like just going down to the corner store and picking up a new E-Clip. Based off effect and availability, I would be better off using long-range missiles (which was my plan) and which can be guided. However, because there are no rules for guided missiles moving around cover or bypassing it, if the dragon was to teleport somewhere within his 5 mile range that was behind cover (behind a building for instance) than according to the cover rules he would no longer be a valid target for attack (and presumably the missiles would just readjust and careen into the building/hill, etc it was hiding behind). Admittedly dragons are large so finding cover could be difficult but it should be EASY to find something that would give partial cover within a 5 mile radius and that's all it needs.

Bottom line, dragons cannot attack any major military installation in Rifts without being shot out of the sky like big, slow moving ducks without relying on some major magic to protect them, or (more likely) disguising themselves as something other than dragons, or simply teleporting past the anti-air defences. all of which are perfectly valid and smart things to do!

And ALL of those options are common to nearly ALL dragons. In fact, the dragons that cannot do those things are a minority. Which is kind of my point. Likewise, my fellow players and I are not a major military installation (I've been working on that in game for over a year and I am only JUST starting to get close to having the installation location picked out and zoned!) we are an adventuring party. I've got a few things that will give an adult dragon a stomach ache and so does the rest of the party, but for the most part its a mess. Admittedly it doesn't help that the dragon in question knows DEATH WORD and has already used it to devastating effect. I think my point is, that they do have those options at their disposal. Heck, casting Armor of Ithan is enough to deal with a volley of missiles (since they all count as a single attack) and the ONLY thing working against the damn things is that their number of attacks per melee is limited. However, again... if the dragon simply telports away on its last action and goes far away (or deep beneath the earth -- since most can dig naturally after all!) then those extra attacks do not matter.

I'm just saying that dragons really don't have any business flying around in the sky as dragons when they go on the attack--because that requires everyone else in the game to NOT be played smart.

A dragon flying around the sky has a Horror Factor, its not a monumental tactical advantage but its significant enough that its not a "stupid" approach. After all, one failed horror factor roll means short of automatic dodge there is nothing your character can do but be snatched by the dragon and then flown up and dropped from the sky so your head busts on the concrete like an overripe water melon.

I'll also note that Anti-magic cloud + a bunch of tanks and power armor is basically a garenteed kill if they're caught by it.

The first or second line of anti-magic cloud states that most mages think of it as a mythical non-existent spell.

Likewise, those tanks are impressive... unless the dragon casts a spell. I'm not going to pretend the dragon in question has all spells (I HATE when people do that) but the dragon I am trying to "dispatch" may be an ancient dragon and has already thrown around a few high level spells.

In Dragons and Gods under the Great Horned Dragon (not the most mystic of dragons) it tells us they have All spell magic from 1-6, exorcism, resurrection, remove curse and 3D4+2 spells from 7-15" For an 8th level Dragon (adult), higher level ones know more. There is also a 70% chance that the Dragon will know one additional area of magic at half that level.

I could go sifting through my book of magic, but "Portal to hell (and/or the sun)" and then the dragon just has to throw/push their victims in and then close the portal. Its a surefire solution to most "big threats." Giant robots and tanks are a serious threat (way more-so than power armor because they're so heavy and not easily moved). However, they too require line of sight to attack. So, if the dragon appears and makes a successful ambush roll and no one makes perception rolls he can attack while they're helpless. If they're not he still gets to strike first because he was initiating the ambush and can teleport back out with his natural teleport ability (he teleports back in with the spell because they have enough P.P.E.). But they'll run out of P.P.E. you say? Not if 30 seconds after vanishing from view they teleport again and chill-out at a ley line for a few minutes. They're in no rush after all, they live forever.

And we're just talking bog standard adult dragon here. I'm not even giving them a fully detailed write up. Its freaking annoying. They regenerate and heal naturally and their ability to move and reappear great distances in an instant means that the ONLY method I have found that is a "sound" way to do it is by making the dragon come to me and be SO pissed off that it doesn't want to leave and then surprising (or Horrifying) it and then hitting it with a missile volley from a group of mercenaries or the other players that have been PATIENTLY lying in wait. That is the best I've got so far. :\

Did I mention that I am praying the damn thing doesn't have Sixth Sense or Clairvoyance? Because then even that won't work. It'll see it coming.

[random_username]

One of the best references for innate magical blasts that actually require a strike roll is Sorcerous Fury (BoM, FoM). The bonus types also occur in Targeted Deflection (BoM, FoM). Generally a good basis for canon approaches for such things. Details in BoM or FoM. Built-in bonus provided by the magical blast + Targeting Skill Bonus + PP Bonus.

Otherwise many magical blasts simply automatically hit unless the target dodges versus a typically 16+ target number.

[Vrykolas2k]

All I can say to that Akashic, is you have severly underestimated the kind of pain missile barrages from multiple sources can lay down. volleys of 4+ can't be dodged, a dragon in adult form has no way to shoot them down, and while the strictly optional dragon HTH allows them to attempt to teleport dodge, which you could houserule as letting them dodge missiles, still won't help if your using Smart missiles that can track where the dragon moved and shift to re-aim. so if 2d6*10 medium range smart missiles deal an average of 70 MDC individually, and say you lay them down in batteries of six, that's 420 damage per volley, that the dragon can't avoid. just have 10-20 batteries laid out and it's an instant kill if they don't already have a defense in place. and that's to say nothing of the ground fire they have to deal with from infantry and power armor and robots alike.

Bottom line, dragons cannot attack any major military installation in Rifts without being shot out of the sky like big, slow moving ducks without relying on some major magic to protect them, or (more likely) disgusing themselves as something other than dragons, or simply teleporting past the anti-air defences. all of which are perfectly valid and smart things to do! I'm just saying that dragons really don't have any business flying around in the sky as dragons when they go on the attack--because that requires everyone else in the game to NOT be played smart.

I'll also note that Anti-magic cloud + a bunch of tanks and power armor is basically a garenteed kill if they're caught by it.

You're giving those missiles too much omniscience, and fuel.
They won't be able to auto-track where the dragon goes when teleporting, nor likely have the fuel to make it there. Especially if said dragon can dimensional teleport.
As well, the dragon doesn't need to dodge/ teleport... just shape-shift into a raven, rabbit or something else smallish, the missiles lose their lock, and fly off until their fuel runs out.
As for ground fire, the proper selection of spells will nullify most of that completely.

[Nekira Sudacne]

All I can say to that Akashic, is you have severly underestimated the kind of pain missile barrages from multiple sources can lay down.

That was my first plan. I'll explain as you go on.

volleys of 4+ can't be dodged, a dragon in adult form has no way to shoot them down.

Assuming their breath weapon isn't a gas, they have their breath weapon which can be used as a simultaneous attack and is large enough and typically will inflict enough damage to destroy a missile volley.

Actually the range is so short the missiles would hit before they could actually get their breath on it. I suppose the GM could rule they could, but if so, they can only target ONE of the volleys. which wouldn't help them much. You could streach the rules and claim it could simultaniously strike as many volleys with it's breath as it has attacks, but that just means you have to add another 8 or so volleys to your total.

and while the strictly optional dragon HTH allows them to attempt to teleport dodge, which you could houserule as letting them dodge missiles

Theoretically, the missiles cannot be dodged because they strike from all attack points since rationally its not like when you fire four missiles all of a sudden they become so large that they cannot be dodged or move faster so that they cannot be dodged. So, I had assumed that they'd be able to port out of a volley. Plus, our Dragon player has done it so my character would assume the older dragon could do the same. That is interesting though, I had forgotten hand to hand Dragon was Optional because in every game I have ever played with a dragon in it they have had it.

I double-checked the writeup for Teleport Dodge. Teleport dodge contains no text that indicates it allows to dodge attacks that are normally undodgable, so as I said, the GM could reasonably houserule it (and probablly should), but by a strict letter definition you could argue they cannot.

still won't help if your using Smart missiles that can track where the dragon moved and shift to re-aim. so if 2d6*10 medium range smart missiles deal an average of 70 MDC individually, and say you lay them down in batteries of six, that's 420 damage per volley, that the dragon can't avoid. just have 10-20 batteries laid out and it's an instant kill if they don't already have a defense in place. and that's to say nothing of the ground fire they have to deal with from infantry and power armor and robots alike.

The problem that I have with that (though less of a problem than the teleport and what I will follow your comments with) is this...

"Smart missiles" and guided missiles are a rarity on Rifts Earth and typically reserved only for the largest (and again, rarest) of long-range missiles.

So finding medium range smart missiles is no walk in the park. They're rare. This is further extrapolated upon again later when the book says...

Smart missiles are self-guided smart bombs which can be programmed to seek out and attack a specific target, but they are rare and never found in a mini-missile.

So, its not like just going down to the corner store and picking up a new E-Clip. Based off effect and availability, I would be better off using long-range missiles (which was my plan) and which can be guided. However, because there are no rules for guided missiles moving around cover or bypassing it, if the dragon was to teleport somewhere within his 5 mile range that was behind cover (behind a building for instance) than according to the cover rules he would no longer be a valid target for attack (and presumably the missiles would just readjust and careen into the building/hill, etc it was hiding behind). Admittedly dragons are large so finding cover could be difficult but it should be EASY to find something that would give partial cover within a 5 mile radius and that's all it needs.

Yes, but if there's one thing I learned about player characters, making an item Rare and Hard to Get only means "They won't get it quickly." and if they're trying to tangle with an adult great horned, i've never seen a party that would have a problem spending a few months of game time making sure they're prepared before they go to it. Smart missiles are only explicitly banned on mini-missiles are most commonly on long range missiles. which means smart medium and even short ranged missiles are possible.

Also, if they have any contacts with naruni, naruni DOES have smart mini-missiles, and so you could argue that as long as they're willing to risk the CS's wrath, they could buy any quantity of smart missiles in any size they want provided they have the money.

Heck, they don't even need to have the money on hand if they're willing to take a finace option. You could probablly pay it off with the dragons hoard if you get it. Just...make sure you actually do

Bottom line, dragons cannot attack any major military installation in Rifts without being shot out of the sky like big, slow moving ducks without relying on some major magic to protect them, or (more likely) disguising themselves as something other than dragons, or simply teleporting past the anti-air defences. all of which are perfectly valid and smart things to do!

And ALL of those options are common to nearly ALL dragons. In fact, the dragons that cannot do those things are a minority. Which is kind of my point.

and my point was exactly that too. Dragons in rifts generally shouldn't act like classical fantasy dragons. they should act like smart Sci-Fi dragons (at least I perfer them to. as I told greyaxe, every GM's enttitled to use whatever kind they perfer personally.)

Likewise, my fellow players and I are not a major military installation (I've been working on that in game for over a year and I am only JUST starting to get close to having the installation location picked out and zoned!)

Like I said. I generally assume any group of PC's with a suffenctly smart and far-thinking memeber will aquire a significant power base sooner or later

we are an adventuring party. I've got a few things that will give an adult dragon a stomach ache and so does the rest of the party, but for the most part its a mess. Admittedly it doesn't help that the dragon in question knows DEATH WORD and has already used it to devastating effect.

a spell that only works if you can hear it. Time for some custom equipment. get everyone a TW helmet with Calling and Globe of Silence. have it made so that the helmets completely block out all outside sound (preventing you from hearing it), then use calling to magically talk to each-other. you can communicate with each-other but can't hear the death word.

I think my point is, that they do have those options at their disposal. Heck, casting Armor of Ithan is enough to deal with a volley of missiles (since they all count as a single attack) and the ONLY thing working against the damn things is that their number of attacks per melee is limited. However, again... if the dragon simply telports away on its last action and goes far away (or deep beneath the earth -- since most can dig naturally after all!) then those extra attacks do not matter.

I wasn't trying to say a dragon couldn't be hell to fight if they play smart and use magic. My point was that playing a dragon so that it only breaths fire and swings claws is not an optimal stratagy (And one greyaxe wasn't really going for, so that's not an issue any longer)

I'm just saying that dragons really don't have any business flying around in the sky as dragons when they go on the attack--because that requires everyone else in the game to NOT be played smart.

A dragon flying around the sky has a Horror Factor, its not a monumental tactical advantage but its significant enough that its not a "stupid" approach. After all, one failed horror factor roll means short of automatic dodge there is nothing your character can do but be snatched by the dragon and then flown up and dropped from the sky so your head busts on the concrete like an overripe water melon.

So have someone with surpress fear use it on everone before you go fight them. immune to horror factor.

Also, automatic dodge does NOT let you dodge if you fail you HF roll.

I'll also note that Anti-magic cloud + a bunch of tanks and power armor is basically a garenteed kill if they're caught by it.

The first or second line of anti-magic cloud states that most mages think of it as a mythical non-existent spell.

And yet first level PC's of some classes can start the game with it.

Likewise, those tanks are impressive... unless the dragon casts a spell. I'm not going to pretend the dragon in question has all spells (I HATE when people do that) but the dragon I am trying to "dispatch" may be an ancient dragon and has already thrown around a few high level spells.

And that's what the anti-magic cloud was for. to stop it from casting the spells. obviously, the senario assumes you DO have this almost-mythic spell.

without it...you just need a lot of tanks. and spread them out over a wide area so it can't get more than a few of them with any one spell. dragons have a ton of PPE, but only so many attacks per round.

I could go sifting through my book of magic, but "Portal to hell (and/or the sun)" and then the dragon just has to throw/push their victims in and then close the portal. Its a surefire solution to most "big threats." Giant robots and tanks are a serious threat (way more-so than power armor because they're so heavy and not easily moved). However, they too require line of sight to attack. So, if the dragon appears and makes a successful ambush roll and no one makes perception rolls he can attack while they're helpless. If they're not he still gets to strike first because he was initiating the ambush and can teleport back out with his natural teleport ability (he teleports back in with the spell because they have enough P.P.E.). But they'll run out of P.P.E. you say? Not if 30 seconds after vanishing from view they teleport again and chill-out at a ley line for a few minutes. They're in no rush after all, they live forever.

Dimensional Portal can only be opened at a ley line nexus. So...unless your assulting the dragon at a nexus, no, it can't open a portal to the sun/hell. and if you ARE attacking a dragon sitting on the nexus, you deserve whatever happens to you.

And we're just talking bog standard adult dragon here. I'm not even giving them a fully detailed write up. Its freaking annoying. They regenerate and heal naturally and their ability to move and reappear great distances in an instant means that the ONLY method I have found that is a "sound" way to do it is by making the dragon come to me and be SO pissed off that it doesn't want to leave and then surprising (or Horrifying) it and then hitting it with a missile volley from a group of mercenaries or the other players that have been PATIENTLY lying in wait. That is the best I've got so far. :\

Get a Cellestial calligraphy of Reverse Chi on it.

Just have it somewhere where it uses it's breath weapon. Maybe on a missile.

Celestial calligraphy is like a scroll that activates when you burn it, weather you know how it works or not.

Reverse chi turns the chi of a being from positive to negative. on a celestial calligraphy, it works even if the one burning it has no idea what it is.

A positive chi being with negative chi cannot heal.

Ergo, the dragon can't heal no matter how long it waits. and unless it's an oriental dragon, it'll likely have no bloody idea what happened to it or how to fix it.

Did I mention that I am praying the damn thing doesn't have Sixth Sense or Clairvoyance? Because then even that won't work. It'll see it coming.

all adult great horns have sixth sense.

[Nekira Sudacne]

All I can say to that Akashic, is you have severly underestimated the kind of pain missile barrages from multiple sources can lay down. volleys of 4+ can't be dodged, a dragon in adult form has no way to shoot them down, and while the strictly optional dragon HTH allows them to attempt to teleport dodge, which you could houserule as letting them dodge missiles, still won't help if your using Smart missiles that can track where the dragon moved and shift to re-aim. so if 2d6*10 medium range smart missiles deal an average of 70 MDC individually, and say you lay them down in batteries of six, that's 420 damage per volley, that the dragon can't avoid. just have 10-20 batteries laid out and it's an instant kill if they don't already have a defense in place. and that's to say nothing of the ground fire they have to deal with from infantry and power armor and robots alike.

Bottom line, dragons cannot attack any major military installation in Rifts without being shot out of the sky like big, slow moving ducks without relying on some major magic to protect them, or (more likely) disgusing themselves as something other than dragons, or simply teleporting past the anti-air defences. all of which are perfectly valid and smart things to do! I'm just saying that dragons really don't have any business flying around in the sky as dragons when they go on the attack--because that requires everyone else in the game to NOT be played smart.

I'll also note that Anti-magic cloud + a bunch of tanks and power armor is basically a garenteed kill if they're caught by it.

You're giving those missiles too much omniscience, and fuel.
They won't be able to auto-track where the dragon goes when teleporting, nor likely have the fuel to make it there. Especially if said dragon can dimensional teleport.
As well, the dragon doesn't need to dodge/ teleport... just shape-shift into a raven, rabbit or something else smallish, the missiles lose their lock, and fly off until their fuel runs out.
As for ground fire, the proper selection of spells will nullify most of that completely.

Teleport dodge cannot be interdimensionally or far away. it's limited to around 100' feet give or take. missiles will easially be able to track.

if it chooses to teleport out entirely or dimensionally, then it's a simultanious action. meaning it gets hit automatically. meaning it dies.

and I already pointed out the smart thing to do was for them to shapeshift into a raven and use spells to protect aginst ground fire. that was exactly the point I was making

[Vrykolas2k]

All I can say to that Akashic, is you have severly underestimated the kind of pain missile barrages from multiple sources can lay down. volleys of 4+ can't be dodged, a dragon in adult form has no way to shoot them down, and while the strictly optional dragon HTH allows them to attempt to teleport dodge, which you could houserule as letting them dodge missiles, still won't help if your using Smart missiles that can track where the dragon moved and shift to re-aim. so if 2d6*10 medium range smart missiles deal an average of 70 MDC individually, and say you lay them down in batteries of six, that's 420 damage per volley, that the dragon can't avoid. just have 10-20 batteries laid out and it's an instant kill if they don't already have a defense in place. and that's to say nothing of the ground fire they have to deal with from infantry and power armor and robots alike.

Bottom line, dragons cannot attack any major military installation in Rifts without being shot out of the sky like big, slow moving ducks without relying on some major magic to protect them, or (more likely) disgusing themselves as something other than dragons, or simply teleporting past the anti-air defences. all of which are perfectly valid and smart things to do! I'm just saying that dragons really don't have any business flying around in the sky as dragons when they go on the attack--because that requires everyone else in the game to NOT be played smart.

I'll also note that Anti-magic cloud + a bunch of tanks and power armor is basically a garenteed kill if they're caught by it.

You're giving those missiles too much omniscience, and fuel.
They won't be able to auto-track where the dragon goes when teleporting, nor likely have the fuel to make it there. Especially if said dragon can dimensional teleport.
As well, the dragon doesn't need to dodge/ teleport... just shape-shift into a raven, rabbit or something else smallish, the missiles lose their lock, and fly off until their fuel runs out.
As for ground fire, the proper selection of spells will nullify most of that completely.

Teleport dodge cannot be interdimensionally or far away. it's limited to around 100' feet give or take. missiles will easially be able to track.

if it chooses to teleport out entirely or dimensionally, then it's a simultanious action. meaning it gets hit automatically. meaning it dies.

and I already pointed out the smart thing to do was for them to shapeshift into a raven and use spells to protect aginst ground fire. that was exactly the point I was making

Except the missiles would completely lose their lock if the dragon teleported.
Even smart missiles systems aren't that good. The reason smart missiles go back to have another try at a target that's gotten out of the way is, the missile doesn't lose its actual lock.

[Nekira Sudacne]

All I can say to that Akashic, is you have severly underestimated the kind of pain missile barrages from multiple sources can lay down. volleys of 4+ can't be dodged, a dragon in adult form has no way to shoot them down, and while the strictly optional dragon HTH allows them to attempt to teleport dodge, which you could houserule as letting them dodge missiles, still won't help if your using Smart missiles that can track where the dragon moved and shift to re-aim. so if 2d6*10 medium range smart missiles deal an average of 70 MDC individually, and say you lay them down in batteries of six, that's 420 damage per volley, that the dragon can't avoid. just have 10-20 batteries laid out and it's an instant kill if they don't already have a defense in place. and that's to say nothing of the ground fire they have to deal with from infantry and power armor and robots alike.

Bottom line, dragons cannot attack any major military installation in Rifts without being shot out of the sky like big, slow moving ducks without relying on some major magic to protect them, or (more likely) disgusing themselves as something other than dragons, or simply teleporting past the anti-air defences. all of which are perfectly valid and smart things to do! I'm just saying that dragons really don't have any business flying around in the sky as dragons when they go on the attack--because that requires everyone else in the game to NOT be played smart.

I'll also note that Anti-magic cloud + a bunch of tanks and power armor is basically a garenteed kill if they're caught by it.

You're giving those missiles too much omniscience, and fuel.
They won't be able to auto-track where the dragon goes when teleporting, nor likely have the fuel to make it there. Especially if said dragon can dimensional teleport.
As well, the dragon doesn't need to dodge/ teleport... just shape-shift into a raven, rabbit or something else smallish, the missiles lose their lock, and fly off until their fuel runs out.
As for ground fire, the proper selection of spells will nullify most of that completely.

Teleport dodge cannot be interdimensionally or far away. it's limited to around 100' feet give or take. missiles will easially be able to track.

if it chooses to teleport out entirely or dimensionally, then it's a simultanious action. meaning it gets hit automatically. meaning it dies.

and I already pointed out the smart thing to do was for them to shapeshift into a raven and use spells to protect aginst ground fire. that was exactly the point I was making

Except the missiles would completely lose their lock if the dragon teleported.
Even smart missiles systems aren't that good. The reason smart missiles go back to have another try at a target that's gotten out of the way is, the missile doesn't lose its actual lock.

Unless you have a rule somewhere to back that up, we're talking about a fictional missile system who's abilities we don't know.

There are no rules for loosing a missle lock, which means it's entirely up to the GM. If you care to houserule that for your games, that's great. but there's no actual way to loose missile lock in the game as it's written. That's not say I think it's impossible to loose missile lock in game, i'm just saying it's purely a GM's call, and just because you'd rule teleport dodge automatically loses missile lock dosn't make it offical.

and as I said, they're still better off just flying in as a raven in the first place or teleporting.

[Zamion138]

Antimagic cloud does not stop the dragon from d porting or telaporting. Its an innate ability not a spell.
To kill an adult rifts dragon is near impossible inless you can magicly shackle them from telaporting. Or follow where they port to. As it only takes one action to telaport out not a full round, they can fight to 40% mdc go away heal up and come back while your fixing stuff.

With how little is written on the telaport abilities having almost any restrictions its pretty hard to kill a dragon. Youd have to deal nearly if not all their mdc in a round, or get it so riled up it fights to the death.
Even using U rounds so they can heal means they are just gone longer while they dig them out or find a surgeon. Innate teleport is to powerfull an ability. It needs some limitations to be added. Like it takes a minute or something. Same thing with demons, most demons can port out if the fight swings away from them and come back over and over again.eventualy the cost of repair and replacement is just to high.

[Akashic Soldier]

I have to keep this short because I'm heading out on a date in 5 minutes but the rules for a missile loosing its lock are detailed under the Anti-missile chaff system in Triax 2.

Sucks about Sixth Sense. I'm going to need a better plan. As for Horror Factor preventing auto dodge, does it explicitly state that it does?

Because auto dodge itself allows the defender to dodge attacks they normally could not. So I'd assume auto dodge still works even if you are drooling and unconcious on the ground.

[Nekira Sudacne]

I have to keep this short because I'm heading out on a date in 5 minutes but the rules for a missile loosing its lock are detailed under the Anti-missile chaff system in Triax 2.

Sucks about Sixth Sense. I'm going to need a better plan. As for Horror Factor preventing auto dodge, does it explicitly state that it does?

Because auto dodge itself allows the defender to dodge attacks they normally could not. So I'd assume auto dodge still works even if you are drooling and unconcious on the ground.

Actually, you are quite incorrect. Auto dodge itself is nothing but a dodge that does not take up an attack. period. NOTHING in auto-dodge states that it can allow you to dodge attacks that you normally could not.

juicers have a seperate, unrelated OCC ability that allows them to dodge attacks that they are normally unaware of. most people misinterpret this as being an innate part of their auto-dodge, but it is in fact a seperate thing. and most people from there assume it applys to anyone's auto-dodge when the actual auto-dodge writeup in RUE makes it very plain that auto-dodge simply lets you dodge without using an attack and nothing else, and the juicer equally clearly labels their ability to dodge unkown attacks as part of the sensory boost of the juicer enhancement and NOT the automatic dodge.

oh, and Great Horned Dragons have ALL senstitive, physical, and healing psionic powers automatically, plus bio-manipulation and psi-sword. plan around this.

[Alrik Vas]

Multiple missile volleys are all separate attacks. If the dragon has enough actions, he can shoot them all down (though this may be limited by the amount of time he can use his breath weapon in a round, i don't know if there's a cap).

However, maybe i'm not clear on how shooting missles down works now. Is it a simultaneous attack? Doesn't that require you to have initiative? So if he isn't going at a higher initiative than the folks firing missiles, then he can't do it? If it works like how i remember, and it's merely "shooting the missiles as a defense" instead of dodging, then he can do it up to his normal attacks.

There is also no rule stating that missiles "move too fast" to be shot down, unless we're talking about anti-ship cruise missiles from phase world.

However, please correct any mistakes. My knowledge is a bit out-dated.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Multiple missile volleys are all separate attacks. If the dragon has enough actions, he can shoot them all down (though this may be limited by the amount of time he can use his breath weapon in a round, i don't know if there's a cap).

Quite true. but I was speaking of 20-30 seperate volleys of missiles. no dragon has enough attacks to shoot them all down.

However, maybe i'm not clear on how shooting missles down works now. Is it a simultaneous attack? Doesn't that require you to have initiative? So if he isn't going at a higher initiative than the folks firing missiles, then he can't do it?

Shooting down missiles is not a simultanious attack, it's a specific anti-missile defence and it dosn't matter who has inititive.

If it works like how i remember, and it's merely "shooting the missiles as a defense" instead of dodging, then he can do it up to his normal attacks.

Yes, which is why I posited volleys in the 20-30 range, to make it impossible for him to shoot them all down in the worst case.

However, you don't merely have to hit, you have to do enough damage to destroy the missile that you hit. Medium range missiles as I was positing using have 10 MDC. Not exactly hard to shoot down, but you need more than a 2d6 or 3d6 gun to do it reliably (those can but they could roll under and fail to shoot them down even if they hit).

if you DO hit, and do enough to destroy it, then it has a flat 60% chance of detonating and destroying the other missiles in the volley. meaning even if you try to shoot it down, and hit, you might not actually take down the volley.

There is also no rule stating that missiles "move too fast" to be shot down, unless we're talking about anti-ship cruise missiles from phase world.

a medium-range heavy high-explosive missile has a speed of 1200 MPH. That equals 860 feet per second. The Great Horned Dragons breath has a maximum range of 100 feet. meaning it is physically impossible for a dragon's breath to actually reach the missiles before it gets hit.

[Alrik Vas]

Honestly, physically impossible doesn't matter in Rifts...or most any other RPG unless you rule it so.

and 20-30 volleys? Yeah, he'll just teleport and flip the bird to all of them. If you're going to say 1200MPH realistically can't be shot down with a close range weapon, then one teleport can dodge all volleys regardless of how many there are.

And i thought it was 75% for missiles shooting down missiles, with only 45% chance for anything else.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Honestly, physically impossible doesn't matter in Rifts...or most any other RPG unless you rule it so.

and 20-30 volleys? Yeah, he'll just teleport and flip the bird to all of them. If you're going to say 1200MPH realistically can't be shot down with a close range weapon, then one teleport can dodge all volleys regardless of how many there are.

actually teleport dodge is not an automatic dodge. meaning he still can't dodge more volleys than he has attacks per melee.

and if he goes for a regular teleport instead of a teleport dodge, then he forfits any defence and gets hit by all of them automatically.

And i thought it was 75% for missiles shooting down missiles, with only 45% chance for anything else.

I didn't look up the exact % so it could be wrong, but I do know it's still only a percentage chance of actually taking out all the missiles.

[Alrik Vas]

You are saying it's physically impossible for them to use a 100ft range weapon to shoot down missles that travel near Mach 2. However, there is no rule to support this.

I am saying, IF you do rule it this way (as in, ignoring the rules and going for "realism"), then teleporting a great distance away, as a teleporting dodge, the missiles would lose track on their target. They would dodge even a million volleys of missiles if they went far enough.

[Nekira Sudacne]

You are saying it's physically impossible for them to use a 100ft range weapon to shoot down missles that travel near Mach 2. However, there is no rule to support this.

I am saying, IF you do rule it this way (as in, ignoring the rules and going for "realism"), then teleporting a great distance away, as a teleporting dodge, the missiles would lose track on their target. They would dodge even a million volleys of missiles if they went far enough.

I'm saying you could easially argue it's impossible, but even if they CAN, then they still can't hit more volleys than they have attacks per melee, and even then they would only have a % chance of actually blowing up that volley even if they do hit it. Meaning a 20-30 volley of missiles is still impossible for them to shoot them all down. are you saying they can shoot down 30 seperate missile volleys with only 8 or so attacks per melee?

i'm not arguing one or the other. i'm arguing both seperately. even if you do rule that they can still shoot down missiles with a 100' breath weapon, then they still can't shoot down 30 volleys of missiles.

I am saying, IF you do rule it this way (as in, ignoring the rules and going for "realism"), then teleporting a great distance away, as a teleporting dodge, the missiles would lose track on their target. They would dodge even a million volleys of missiles if they went far enough.

except that teleport dodge is limited to no more than 100 feet. It's impossible to teleport any further than that as a dodge. so they can't do that explicitly by the rules. page 350 RUE if you need a reference.

[Alrik Vas]

Wait, it's limited to 100ft?

Why the crap has everyone been saying it's the end all ability then?

[Giant2005]

You are saying it's physically impossible for them to use a 100ft range weapon to shoot down missles that travel near Mach 2. However, there is no rule to support this.

I am saying, IF you do rule it this way (as in, ignoring the rules and going for "realism"), then teleporting a great distance away, as a teleporting dodge, the missiles would lose track on their target. They would dodge even a million volleys of missiles if they went far enough.

I'm saying you could easially argue it's impossible, but even if they CAN, then they still can't hit more volleys than they have attacks per melee, and even then they would only have a % chance of actually blowing up that volley even if they do hit it. Meaning a 20-30 volley of missiles is still impossible for them to shoot them all down. are you saying they can shoot down 30 seperate missile volleys with only 8 or so attacks per melee?

i'm not arguing one or the other. i'm arguing both seperately. even if you do rule that they can still shoot down missiles with a 100' breath weapon, then they still can't shoot down 30 volleys of missiles.

I am saying, IF you do rule it this way (as in, ignoring the rules and going for "realism"), then teleporting a great distance away, as a teleporting dodge, the missiles would lose track on their target. They would dodge even a million volleys of missiles if they went far enough.

except that teleport dodge is limited to no more than 100 feet. It's impossible to teleport any further than that as a dodge. so they can't do that explicitly by the rules. page 350 RUE if you need a reference.

A 100' wall of MD fire is what I would consider a more reasonable means of stopping missiles than shooting them with something like an Assault Rifle.
About the teleport dodge vs missiles thing... You seem to be applying two different mutually exclusive scenarios together and applying the negative effects of both to the Dragon. Either all the volleys are fired at the target at the same time, in which case a single Teleport Dodge would render that target open air for all volleys, evading them easily; Or the volleys are fired off separately, in which case the Dragon could use a full teleport as a simultaneous action and barely be scratched by the single volley that hit him. You can't fire the all of the volleys at the same time as well as fire all of the volleys at different times.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Wait, it's limited to 100ft?

Why the crap has everyone been saying it's the end all ability then?

I don't know. who's been saying it?

[Nekira Sudacne]

You are saying it's physically impossible for them to use a 100ft range weapon to shoot down missles that travel near Mach 2. However, there is no rule to support this.

I am saying, IF you do rule it this way (as in, ignoring the rules and going for "realism"), then teleporting a great distance away, as a teleporting dodge, the missiles would lose track on their target. They would dodge even a million volleys of missiles if they went far enough.

I'm saying you could easially argue it's impossible, but even if they CAN, then they still can't hit more volleys than they have attacks per melee, and even then they would only have a % chance of actually blowing up that volley even if they do hit it. Meaning a 20-30 volley of missiles is still impossible for them to shoot them all down. are you saying they can shoot down 30 seperate missile volleys with only 8 or so attacks per melee?

i'm not arguing one or the other. i'm arguing both seperately. even if you do rule that they can still shoot down missiles with a 100' breath weapon, then they still can't shoot down 30 volleys of missiles.

I am saying, IF you do rule it this way (as in, ignoring the rules and going for "realism"), then teleporting a great distance away, as a teleporting dodge, the missiles would lose track on their target. They would dodge even a million volleys of missiles if they went far enough.

except that teleport dodge is limited to no more than 100 feet. It's impossible to teleport any further than that as a dodge. so they can't do that explicitly by the rules. page 350 RUE if you need a reference.

A 100' wall of MD fire is what I would consider a more reasonable means of stopping missiles than shooting them with something like an Assault Rifle.

at least most rifles in Rifts have a range of more than 1000 feet. weather or not THAT is realistic is another debate entirely

About the teleport dodge vs missiles thing... You seem to be applying two different mutually exclusive scenarios together and applying the negative effects of both to the Dragon. Either all the volleys are fired at the target at the same time, in which case a single Teleport Dodge would render that target open air for all volleys, evading them easily

Ummm, no. Nothing allows you to use one dodge roll to dodge multiple sources of fire just because they all fired at once, except for automatic dodge, which would still be handled as 30 seperate dodge rolls.

Or the volleys are fired off separately, in which case the Dragon could use a full teleport as a simultaneous action and barely be scratched by the single volley that hit him. You can't fire the all of the volleys at the same time as well as fire all of the volleys at different times.

Quick, lets simplify this: You have a dead boy firing squad. all 10 dead boys are waiting for the sergent to say FIRE at the 3 count, at which point they all fire simultaniously.

You don't have to move on your inititive slot. you can wait to move after or with someone else.

And of course missiles are easier. just set them all on the same timer.

[Giant2005]

Ummm, no. Nothing allows you to use one dodge roll to dodge multiple sources of fire just because they all fired at once, except for automatic dodge, which would still be handled as 30 seperate dodge rolls.

It isn't a matter of dodging 30 strikes with one roll, it is a matter of dodging one volley and 29 volleys having shot at something that isn't there.
The rules don't cover shooting at things that aren't there because most people would assume that if you are shooting at nothing, you hit nothing.

[Alrik Vas]

Where is the rule for acting simultaneously with an ally? I wasn't aware of it.

[The Beast]

Wait, it's limited to 100ft?

Why the crap has everyone been saying it's the end all ability then?

I'm thinking the exact same thing bro.

[Zamion138]

Wait, it's limited to 100ft?

Why the crap has everyone been saying it's the end all ability then?

I'm thinking the exact same thing bro.

The teleportation dodge is limited to 100ft, the teleport and dport's are not so limited

[Nekira Sudacne]

Wait, it's limited to 100ft?

Why the crap has everyone been saying it's the end all ability then?

I'm thinking the exact same thing bro.

The teleportation dodge is limited to 100ft, the teleport and dport's are not so limited

Which is what I said. he was responding to me.

[Alrik Vas]

Well, anyway. Is there a rule for simulteneous allied attacks? If there is, then teleporting away isn't going to help as you get hit all at once. If there isn't, then it's the GM making it happen, which isn't the same thing.

[The Beast]

Well, anyway. Is there a rule for simulteneous allied attacks? If there is, then teleporting away isn't going to help as you get hit all at once. If there isn't, then it's the GM making it happen, which isn't the same thing.

It's the initiative roll. If you get the same roll as someone else, you're both going at the same time.

[Alrik Vas]

Well, anyway. Is there a rule for simulteneous allied attacks? If there is, then teleporting away isn't going to help as you get hit all at once. If there isn't, then it's the GM making it happen, which isn't the same thing.

It's the initiative roll. If you get the same roll as someone else, you're both going at the same time.

The words you are using I understand. What I don't understand is whether two allied characters shooting at the same target on the same initiative can be dodged by said target by the rules. Essentially, does having the same initiative make things happen simultaneously by the RAW, and is how it works explained, or is this something we're all just assuming works a certain way?

[Akashic Soldier]

A simultaneous attack is not the ability to strike first if you go on the sane initiative. According to Initiative if two people roll the same initiative you reroll.

A simultaneous attack (according to R:UE and R:GMG) is an attack you make in place of a defence. Meaning that as soon as the missiles can get within range of the breath weapon the dragon releases a gout of fire that could destroy them before they strike.

It doesn't need a massive range because the breath weapon doesn't need to strike the attacker, it needs to strike the missiles careening towards it. Plus, because its a an area of effect attack it can strike every missile that passes through it instead of just one and hoping it triggers a chain reaction (like a rifle). Making the breath weapon and other "spray" attacks superior.

Also, where does it limit the dragons teleport to 100 feet?

Reading it in the R:UE and Dragons and Gods it says 5 miles?

[Galroth]

A simultaneous attack is not the ability to strike first if you go on the sane initiative. According to Initiative if two people roll the same initiative you reroll.

A simultaneous attack (according to R:UE and R:GMG) is an attack you make in place of a defence. Meaning that as soon as the missiles can get within range of the breath weapon the dragon releases a gout of fire that could destroy them before they strike.

It doesn't need a massive range because the breath weapon doesn't need to strike the attacker, it needs to strike the missiles careening towards it. Plus, because its a an area of effect attack it can strike every missile that passes through it instead of just one and hoping it triggers a chain reaction (like a rifle). Making the breath weapon and other "spray" attacks superior.

Also, where does it limit the dragons teleport to 100 feet?

Reading it in the R:UE and Dragons and Gods it says 5 miles?

They are talking about the specific ability of HtH Dragon, Teleport: Dodge. It's on page 350 of the R:UE.

Also, the teleport dodge is limited to no more than 100 feet (31m).

[Grand Paladin]

Well, anyway. Is there a rule for simulteneous allied attacks? If there is, then teleporting away isn't going to help as you get hit all at once. If there isn't, then it's the GM making it happen, which isn't the same thing.

It's the initiative roll. If you get the same roll as someone else, you're both going at the same time.

The words you are using I understand. What I don't understand is whether two allied characters shooting at the same target on the same initiative can be dodged by said target by the rules. Essentially, does having the same initiative make things happen simultaneously by the RAW, and is how it works explained, or is this something we're all just assuming works a certain way?

What's been working well in our onging game is a bit of houserule. If 2 allied player characters roll the same initiative, the one with the higher Physical Prowess attribute has the lead position in attacking of the two player characters. If per chance both player characters have the same P.P. attribute score, then it's a roll off of an unmodified D20's- highest roll takes the lead position in the melee round. Since the two player characters are striking within a split second of each other, the target should only be able to dodge one of the allied player characters, UNLESS the targer is a Juicer, or has the Intuitive Combat psychic power, or some similar O.C.C. or race that has similar abilities enabling he/she/it to dodge all attacks leveled at them.

Just my 2 cents.

[Nekira Sudacne]

A simultaneous attack is not the ability to strike first if you go on the sane initiative. According to Initiative if two people roll the same initiative you reroll.

A simultaneous attack (according to R:UE and R:GMG) is an attack you make in place of a defence. Meaning that as soon as the missiles can get within range of the breath weapon the dragon releases a gout of fire that could destroy them before they strike.

It doesn't need a massive range because the breath weapon doesn't need to strike the attacker, it needs to strike the missiles careening towards it. Plus, because its a an area of effect attack it can strike every missile that passes through it instead of just one and hoping it triggers a chain reaction (like a rifle). Making the breath weapon and other "spray" attacks superior.

Also, where does it limit the dragons teleport to 100 feet?

Reading it in the R:UE and Dragons and Gods it says 5 miles?

I said teleport dodge is limited to 100 feet. I already cited the page 350, if you look up a few posts up

they can't teleport their full distance as a dodge. The limits always been there.

[The Beast]

A simultaneous attack is not the ability to strike first if you go on the sane initiative. According to Initiative if two people roll the same initiative you reroll.

Oh wow. My first GM must have house-ruled that back when he got me playing Robotech.

[Alrik Vas]

Right, so no official rule on allies hitting at the same time. Just making sure.