Attacks Per Melee and Dodging

[Mediapig71]

When you dodge, do you lose your next attack, or does the lost attack come off your total?

If it's your next attack, what happens if you want to dodge again? Are you unable to dodge twice in a row?

Example: Captain Amazing is fighting Dr. Deadly. Amazing wins initiative, and punches Deadly. Deadly then goes and fires his energy beam at Captain Amazing, and Amazing chooses to dodge. Next round, Dr. Deadly wins initiative, and shoots at Captain Amazing again... what happens? Can amazing dodge again? Does he just have to stand there and take it?

I've always been a bit hazy on what happens here.

[Mediapig71]

So in other words, if you've already attacked in the initiative order, you can't dodge the next ranged attack aimed at you?

[Mediapig71]

So even of you run out of attacks, you can still dodge, you just can never attack if you continuously dodge?

I think this was how we played it back in the day, but I really can't remember.

[Mediapig71]

I wonder if a good house rule would be that after you are out of attacks, you can still dodge, but you get no bonuses?

[Mediapig71]

OK, along similar lines, how do people handle special attacks that use multiple attacks per Melee? (Power Punches, or example?)

Do you declare the punch, wait the required number of actions, then it hits? Do you make the punch, then cannot attack for the required number of rounds (but may be able to dodge?) OR do you make the attack, and simply reduce your total attacks by the required number?

[Damian Magecraft]

I have mad them lose their next intiative pass. it works out better. th eother method lets the enemy interrupt too much, and the 2nd method is cheap.

Do you treat spells the same way?

[Alrik Vas]

Yes, by the rules you can keep dodging. It just continuously uses up future actions.

I limit it however. I treat it like parry. I only let you dodge up to three attacks at a time. There's only so much you can do without special powers or intense training. However, Tengjutsu "auto dodge", regular auto dodges, the Multiple Dodge technique and other things still work the way they're written.

[Iczer]

I often allow the result of a dodge to remain consistent (but falling) until the character has another attacks.

So if Terry-Dactyl dodges sidewinder (rolls 16, gets a 20) he can count that 20, dropping by one each time, against sidewinders allies Broken fist (dodge 19), Retainer (Dodge 18) and Squash (dodge 17).

Reasoning: Super brawls can get pretty number heavy, especially where minions are involved. Dodging is already hard and rules that make it harder make the extra action spent seem like a waste of time. Heroes are heroes, and should, by narrative rather than by logic, be able to participate in a fight, rather than become dodge locked.

Batts

[ghost2020]

I am playtesting a rule that is -10 to all next attacks after a dodge. I don't feel like keeping track of lost attacks, etc.

It's just easier to let them dodge and impose a large penalty on next attack action.

It seems to work just fine, easier book keeping too.

[Alrik Vas]

I am playtesting a rule that is -10 to all next attacks after a dodge. I don't feel like keeping track of lost attacks, etc.

It's just easier to let them dodge and impose a large penalty on next attack action.

It seems to work just fine, easier book keeping too.

That's interesting. So...does that mean if they dodge more than one thing before their next action, their second dodge is at -10 but doesn't cost an attack?

[ghost2020]

Not sure, still working on it. I thought about doing a -10, then an additional -5 per dodge. A cumulative penalty as the round went on. They can still attempt attacks, etc, but after all the dodging and running around, their chance to hit will be severely penalized.

Makes the thought of 'covering fire' actually workable.

[ghost2020]

It's a -10 on next attack rather than lose the attack. Not sure if that was clear.

[Alrik Vas]

It was clear, yeah. Though covering fire works well in the current system too. The guy sprays an area, people who don't dodge get hit, everyone who does dodge doesn't make an attack next turn...

You're still letting them act, just at a -10. I think the normal way works a bit better, for hard and fast, but I do like your idea.

[Brothershadow]

When you dodge, do you lose your next attack, or does the lost attack come off your total?

If it's your next attack, what happens if you want to dodge again? Are you unable to dodge twice in a row?

Example: Captain Amazing is fighting Dr. Deadly. Amazing wins initiative, and punches Deadly. Deadly then goes and fires his energy beam at Captain Amazing, and Amazing chooses to dodge. Next round, Dr. Deadly wins initiative, and shoots at Captain Amazing again... what happens? Can amazing dodge again? Does he just have to stand there and take it?

I've always been a bit hazy on what happens here.

In our HU games, if the player elects to dodge the attack, I cross off their next attack in say round two or the next round where they would normally get an attack.
This is the penalty for opting to use a dodge and assumes the player is on the defense that round. If they are forced to dodge again, then the process repeats until they have used up
all of their attacks. If they have no more attack actions to be used to dodge they're really going to be at the mercy of the assailant. Most of the players in my games either have the auto dodge feature to get back into combat immediately or they're tank types who can often take the damage easily and keep pressing their attacks.

[Tor]

It's the next attack, any combat example that has dodging (such as the one in Rifts CB1) makes this very clear.

In b4 "Rifts examples don't apply to HU because anti-Megaverse"

[Daniel Stoker]

Well they don't always because the rules aren't all the same from game to game.


Daniel Stoker

[Mediapig71]

So, as I understand it, "by the book":

1. Each dodge uses up your next attack
2. You can dodge multiple turns in a row, it just keeps using up your next attack (ie: if you dodge every round, you will never attack)
3. When you have used up all your attacks per melee, you may no longer dodge

Note the above assumes "regular dodging" not auto-dodge.

[Tor]

One thing I've always wondered is just how many things you can dodge. It was easier in N&SS because you made a single dodge roll and it applied to all attacks you were targetted with during that turn. In other systems you appear to make individual rolls and have to spend 1 attack per person you dodge though.

So presumably if I'm a guy with 4 attacks and fighting 4 guys who all get initiative on me and throw a punch, I could dodge all 4 but then just stand passively the entire melee since I used all my actions in the first turn?

One reasonable 'house rule' I think to apply here is that to dodge, you must have a 'next attack' available. If you already spent the next on a dodge then you shouldn't be able to keep buying dodges. By extension this means I dislike the dodge-borrowing rule introduced in Rifts.

That said another good 'house rule' for HU is to apply the N&SS rule where if you dodge, anyone else who targets you in that turn has to overcome that same dodge.

[Damian Magecraft]

One thing I've always wondered is just how many things you can dodge. It was easier in N&SS because you made a single dodge roll and it applied to all attacks you were targetted with during that turn. Only if you used Multiple Dodge. In other systems you appear to make individual rolls and have to spend 1 attack per person you dodge though.

So presumably if I'm a guy with 4 attacks and fighting 4 guys who all get initiative on me and throw a punch, I could dodge all 4 but then just stand passively the entire melee since I used all my actions in the first turn?

One reasonable 'house rule' I think to apply here is that to dodge, you must have a 'next attack' available. If you already spent the next on a dodge then you shouldn't be able to keep buying dodges. By extension this means I dislike the dodge-borrowing rule introduced in Rifts.

That said another good 'house rule' for HU is to apply the N&SS rule where if you dodge, anyone else who targets you in that turn has to overcome that same dodge.You mean fold Multiple dodge into the regular dodge.

[Tor]

It was easier in N&SS because you made a single dodge roll and it applied to all attacks you were targetted with during that turn.

Only if you used Multiple Dodge.

another good 'house rule' for HU is to apply the N&SS rule where if you dodge, anyone else who targets you in that turn has to overcome that same dodge.

You mean fold Multiple dodge into the regular dodge.

Actually no. In spite of the name, the only difference Multiple Dodge has to a normal Dodge is that it allows you to dodge attacks from behind (and above). Pg 129 makes this very clear. The basic dodge description says that it is good against multiple attacks, so long as they are visible (rear and high-altitude attacks are normally not, and cannot be dodged unless otherwise indicated).

The illustration using Kajo at the bottom of the page clarifies this too:

"a whole bunch of guys are ready to fire with guns. He needs to make only one Dodge roll in the first attack of the melee. That one roll is all he gets to beat all the attackers' rolls for the first melee round attack, because they are all firing simultaneously"

..

"the Dodge only works against the attackers on one side. The Dodge would have no effect on any attack from the rear or above"

..

It continues in the left column of pg 130.

"he can use Multiple Dodge, and then there's no problem with getting hit in the back"

..

"if it turns out there's somebody behind him, he can always switch to the Multiple Ddoge later"

Basically, Multiple Dodge is a badly named maneuver. Really all dodges (including auto-dodges) are "multiple" dodges that work against an unlimited amount of attacks in that turn. The "Multiple" dodge should really have been named something like "circular dodge", as it functions the same way a circular parry does, save that it can't be automatic (excepting a certain kata), and doesn't limit you to 1 strike per round.

The difference between Dodge in other systems and Dodge in N&SS almost the same as the one between Roll and Automatic Roll in N&SS. 1 versus many. The difference is that for Dodges, you roll 1 time and apply that dice roll to ALL attackers strike rolls in that turn. For automatic roll, I think it may function more like auto-parry in that you must make individual rolls for each attacker's strike.

Automatic Roll is also sort of a badly named technique. While N&SS clarifies that "automatic" is supposed to mean that something that normally costs an attack does not (and it is used this way for parry/dodge/flip) in the case of roll, it is already automatic and does not cost an attack (which is different from other systems, which make rolls cost an action). The automatic roll would more aptly be called an "unlimited roll" or a "multiple roll" since it changes you from 1 automatic roll per turn (so you could only roll with 1 punch if 2 guys punched you in the same turn) to an unlimited number.

[Dakchronos]

So one ends up making one dice roll to dodge multiple foes. Does each successful dodge in this fashion eat up additional actions, or just the initial roll?

[Damian Magecraft]

So one ends up making one dice roll to dodge multiple foes. Does each successful dodge in this fashion eat up additional actions, or just the initial roll?

One roll deals with all attacks in the turn.
(Turn being defined as one go around of the combatants to have spent one action.)

[The Dark Elf]

I not read all the above posts.

We play dodge uses up ur next attack but you can keep using up attacks by dodging even if they have to be from your next melee round (effectively allowing continuous chances to dodge).
This means that if someone's keeps dodging he will not have an opportunity to fight or flee until his next available attack. If they miss then it doesn't use the dodge action that round. Hope that description makes sense.

[Tor]

When you dodge, do you lose your next attack, or does the lost attack come off your total?

It's your next attack, not the total.

If it's your next attack, what happens if you want to dodge again? Are you unable to dodge twice in a row?

That's the real question. N&SS never had that problem because 1 dodge worked against all attacks within that turn, but other systems have the issue. I'd personally say no as a preference, but within the rules I think it would just be the next one after that.

Previously if you were out of attacks, you could no longer dodge. Rifts GMG/Ultimate introduced the idea of borrowing 'next attacks' from following melee round(s?) though.

Well they don't always because the rules aren't all the same from game to game.

True, but we should act as if they're interchangeable except where there's a contradiction.

So one ends up making one dice roll to dodge multiple foes. Does each successful dodge in this fashion eat up additional actions, or just the initial roll?

In N&SS it was 1 action spent and 1 roll made, per turn. You had to spend additional actions/rolls if attacked in subsequent initiative turns though. In other systems it's 1 roll and 1 action per attack that targets you.

[Damian Magecraft]

Well they don't always because the rules aren't all the same from game to game.

True, but we should act as if they're interchangeable except where there's a contradiction.

False Assumption.
Not everyone owns or desires to own or can own (several are OOP due to licensing issues) every book published by PB.

[Tor]

If you lack the book or access to the rule then you don't use it, obv. Just like bonus super abilities from the Powers Unlimited series. The PU stuff is still compatible and usable even if you don't have access to the source to incorporate it.

We have no inherent expectation that someone who owns 1 book will own other ones, except perhaps something general like owning the main book of a series you own a sourcebook for.

[Damian Magecraft]

If you lack the book or access to the rule then you don't use it, obv. Just like bonus super abilities from the Powers Unlimited series. The PU stuff is still compatible and usable even if you don't have access to the source to incorporate it.

We have no inherent expectation that someone who owns 1 book will own other ones, except perhaps something general like owning the main book of a series you own a sourcebook for.

and yet you argue as if they do.
hypocrisy much?

[Tor]

I argue as if we're discussing a collective Megaverse here, which we are. Should we have separate subforums for Powers Unlimited since the HU subforum might attract some who only own the main book?

If there are rules for cold penalties in Rifts Canada why shouldn't I bring them up here?

[Damian Magecraft]

I argue as if we're discussing a collective Megaverse here, which we are. Should we have separate subforums for Powers Unlimited since the HU subforum might attract some who only own the main book?

If there are rules for cold penalties in Rifts Canada why shouldn't I bring them up here?

well for one because it is the "Heroes Unlimited" forum not the "All things Palladium" or the "Rifts" forum.
For another there are cold rules for HU presented in the HUGMG.
Argue to the audiences most likely base source not what you hope or think they have.

[Tor]

because HU has diffirent cold rules in place, (Check HU GM Guide/ Frozen world )... Rifts Canada is written from the view point of human physiology (And quite goofy to boot)

Fair enough, but inevitably there's going to be some area where 1 system covers something with rules and the other doesn't. You give an example of where we have conflicting rules, in which case I agree we should resort to using the rules of the home dimension. But in absence of rules it's fine to use rules from other game books.

well for one because it is the "Heroes Unlimited" forum not the "All things Palladium" or the "Rifts" forum. For another there are cold rules for HU presented in the HUGMG. Argue to the audiences most likely base source not what you hope or think they have.

My point still stands, it is wrong to assume that anyone on the HU forum would necessarily have the GMG for HU, even though it's a more likely assumption than to assume they have Rifts or the Rifts GMG or Rifts Canada.

If we argue anything beyond the core rule book on a forum, we always risk offending anyone who may lack the sourcebook. That doesn't make it wrong to do.

[Razorwing]

I've always used the simple rule that dodging uses up 1 of your total attacks in a melee round, but not necessarily your next attack. I also use the rule that if you are out of attacks, you can't dodge... you're too tired to do so. You can still parry, but it is better to find cover with one of your attacks/actions until a new opportunity to attack comes along.

This of course works for both the player and the NPCs... if they are forced to dodge, it uses up their attacks too... and unless they are supervillains, they aren't likely to have as many attacks/actions as the players.

This leads to more of a strategic play style where the players have to use their attacks/actions somewhat wisely. Of course, if they have a high AR or are otherwise invulnerable, they can act as sort of the meat shield and absorb most of the enemies attacks... and maybe even provide cover for the others (you see similar things done in comics all the time).

Additionally, I try to keep the sides more or less balanced when it comes to the fights... where a player will tend to pick one opponent to slug it out with. The only time I will pit two or more villains against a hero is when they are less powerful or the hero has powers that would tend to mediate the additional attacks against him (such as Invulnerability). If he looks big and powerful/dangerous... he might get teamed up on.

It isn't a perfect system... there are times due to lucky rolls (good and bad) that players get trounced hard... but for the most part this system has worked out well. All it takes is one good trouncing for players to realize they need a more effective strategy than charging in with guns blazing.

[Tor]

It's pretty consistently been the NEXT attack in the rules of every game I can recall. HU2pg63 Step3 clearly states (end of parrying, b4 dodging) that "characters with no hand to hand combat training will lose their next melee attack every time they parry. Defending by dodging or entangling means automatically giving up the next melee attack."

The confusion results because under dodge is phrases it "each dodge uses up one of the character's attacks". The use of 'one' rather than 'next' might confuse some...

Unless you actually read the next sentence. "constantly dodging means the defender has no opportunity to attack".

If it did not use up your next attack, then you WOULD have an opportunity to attack. So clearly it doesn't just come out of the pool, it comes immediately after.