Mages and the costs of materials

[Nightmask]

Given the thought sparked by this over in the Rifts thread, does anyone make the effort to NOT have magical effects or magical construction based on a price value of a particular material and instead on a set amount of a particular material? Since it's quite bizarre that a mage would need say 10,000 credits of diamonds for something, when the price for diamonds is an arbitrary market value that fluctuates from zero on up to absurdly high amounts. You could have a mage going 'yeah I needed 10 carats of diamonds for this spell last week but thanks to the value going up for diamonds I only needed 5 carats later on'.

[Glistam]

I just assume the price reflects a set market value that only changes when the GM deems it necessary.

[Nightmask]

I just assume the price reflects a set market value that only changes when the GM deems it necessary.

Well that's the problem though, the amount of a particular material required for something like spell-casting shouldn't depend on what it currently costs because cost is not only arbitrary but how much it would cost you to sell something is far lower than what it costs to buy something, so if you had and were trying to sell an ounce of gold and it sold for say 100 credits but the market price for buying it is 500 credits then by how things are written what you have isn't enough because it's only worth 100 credits yet buying the same amount for 500 credits it's now enough.

It's also ridiculous to have market prices never fluctuating because they have to vary between locations, supply and demand aren't the same everywhere so that ounce of gold can't possibly have the same price in Chi-town as it would have in Tolkeen or Japan. Which makes it also ridiculous to be tying the amount of a particular material you need to a price since again that's an arbitrary amount that varies from place to place whereas how much of the material you'd need for a particular spell or construct would be constant.

The 'Order Of The Stick' webcomic even lampshaded that absurdity, when they show a wizard's apprentice coming back saying how he'd haggled a good deal on a bag of diamond dust only for the wizard to tell him to go back and buy more because the spell required 10k worth of diamond dust so he has to spend money until he met that requirement (and conversely by that rationale he could have gotten a single GRAIN of diamond dust and spent 10k on it and met the spell requirement since all that mattered was how much he SPENT now how much he HAD ).

[arouetta]

I just assume the price reflects a set market value that only changes when the GM deems it necessary.

Well that's the problem though, the amount of a particular material required for something like spell-casting shouldn't depend on what it currently costs because cost is not only arbitrary but how much it would cost you to sell something is far lower than what it costs to buy something, so if you had and were trying to sell an ounce of gold and it sold for say 100 credits but the market price for buying it is 500 credits then by how things are written what you have isn't enough because it's only worth 100 credits yet buying the same amount for 500 credits it's now enough.

It's also ridiculous to have market prices never fluctuating because they have to vary between locations, supply and demand aren't the same everywhere so that ounce of gold can't possibly have the same price in Chi-town as it would have in Tolkeen or Japan. Which makes it also ridiculous to be tying the amount of a particular material you need to a price since again that's an arbitrary amount that varies from place to place whereas how much of the material you'd need for a particular spell or construct would be constant.

The 'Order Of The Stick' webcomic even lampshaded that absurdity, when they show a wizard's apprentice coming back saying how he'd haggled a good deal on a bag of diamond dust only for the wizard to tell him to go back and buy more because the spell required 10k worth of diamond dust so he has to spend money until he met that requirement (and conversely by that rationale he could have gotten a single GRAIN of diamond dust and spent 10k on it and met the spell requirement since all that mattered was how much he SPENT now how much he HAD ).

I think that's overthinking it a bit. The books have a set price for how much something costs, period. A diamond is listed as value per one carat weight, based on uncut/average cut/superior cut. Not, value in this area but another value in that area and a third value in a third area. Not value on Tuesday vs. value on Thursday. Just a flat rate based on cut, which likely is important to being a component.

So if you want a 1000 gp diamond, divide 1000 by 350 and you know the size. Use simple math, not quantum physics. It will be a lot less frustrating.

[Nightmask]

I just assume the price reflects a set market value that only changes when the GM deems it necessary.

Well that's the problem though, the amount of a particular material required for something like spell-casting shouldn't depend on what it currently costs because cost is not only arbitrary but how much it would cost you to sell something is far lower than what it costs to buy something, so if you had and were trying to sell an ounce of gold and it sold for say 100 credits but the market price for buying it is 500 credits then by how things are written what you have isn't enough because it's only worth 100 credits yet buying the same amount for 500 credits it's now enough.

It's also ridiculous to have market prices never fluctuating because they have to vary between locations, supply and demand aren't the same everywhere so that ounce of gold can't possibly have the same price in Chi-town as it would have in Tolkeen or Japan. Which makes it also ridiculous to be tying the amount of a particular material you need to a price since again that's an arbitrary amount that varies from place to place whereas how much of the material you'd need for a particular spell or construct would be constant.

The 'Order Of The Stick' webcomic even lampshaded that absurdity, when they show a wizard's apprentice coming back saying how he'd haggled a good deal on a bag of diamond dust only for the wizard to tell him to go back and buy more because the spell required 10k worth of diamond dust so he has to spend money until he met that requirement (and conversely by that rationale he could have gotten a single GRAIN of diamond dust and spent 10k on it and met the spell requirement since all that mattered was how much he SPENT now how much he HAD ).

I think that's overthinking it a bit. The books have a set price for how much something costs, period. A diamond is listed as value per one carat weight, based on uncut/average cut/superior cut. Not, value in this area but another value in that area and a third value in a third area. Not value on Tuesday vs. value on Thursday. Just a flat rate based on cut, which likely is important to being a component.

So if you want a 1000 gp diamond, divide 1000 by 350 and you know the size. Use simple math, not quantum physics. It will be a lot less frustrating.

Book prices aren't carved in stone, they're a default guideline and change depending on demand and region. The amount of something needed by a mage (or anyone else for that matter) shouldn't be based on spending X amount of money but on buying Y amount of it at whatever the current price is.

[Glistam]

It is based on that. If a spell listed the need for "x ounces of gold," the next logical question that follows is, "how much does that cost?" The price-based descriptions remove that middle step and get right to the root of what the player and GM need to know in order to continue. But those prices only hold true if the exchange rate that the book assumes remains true. If the players can't realize that then a class like that isn't for them. And if your GM can't understand that then you should find a new one.

[arouetta]

It [u]is[/i] based on that. If a spell listed the need for "x ounces of gold," the next logical question that follows is, "how much does that cost?" The price-based descriptions remove that middle step and get right to the root of what the player and GM need to know in order to continue. But those prices only hold true if the exchange rate that the book assumes remains true. If the players can't realize that then a class like that isn't for them. And if your GM can't understand that then you should find a new one.

I agree. The cost is presented as a constant to make the game flow easier. Personally I'm running a game where there are giant lizards that weigh too much to fly doing somersaults in midair with ease while breathing fire without burning their windpipes who miraculously know everything about everything the day they hatch. I really don't think it needs real-life economics breaking the imagery I'm trying to build. I gloss over the economics as much as possible (haggling is possible but it stays close to the book price), NPC purchasing is 50% of book retail cost, and my players are happy. No one experiences a brain cramp.

[drewkitty ~..~]

The prices set in the books are just the base or mean (center) point of the price fluctuations due to two things, Demand for that item in that place and the availability/rarity of that item.

In the middle ages if a noble wanted to impress a visitor they got out their Aluminum flatware (if they had any) because it was hard to refine AL at that time.

AL is so cheap today because the refining process has made the production of the metal so available that it is now "Dirt Cheap". So the Flatware that would of been a "king's ransom" are now (2010's) something that people in the USA almost don't thing twice about tossing them out in the trash.


Thus the GM controls the availability of commodities and the local price of them.