Hope NG2 is better than NG1

[Cybermancer]

I agree that some of the prices in NG1 tend to be overly inflated but the tech level is just about right. The bots are far from death traps and should be less capable than those of the CS or Triax. The OCC's are meh but that's nothing new for Palladium products I'm afraid. I could have lived without all the bolded names throughout. I know why it was done but it was still jarring.

The background information was good. Over all I'd say the book was good, though not as good as Black Market was. Of course Black Market also had some problems with price inflation. I'll be happy if NG2 is on par with NG1.

[Lenwen]

Why would anybody spend millions when you can get the same thing or almost the same thing for under 100,000?

Its simple.

Because Rifts is thee only "post apocolypitical" setting ever created, where surviving the Apocolypse .. you instantly become a millionaire !

There are more "million" credit costs in this setting, then ever there was prior to the apocalypse of the setting . I've never taken any books "cost" an played then out in my settings, considering its a post apocalyptical setting, there is no way ANYONE .. has this type of "bling" already as nation's would barley be able to afford such things..

That's my 2cp's worth . Hope it helps.

[DhAkael]

One word; HYPERINFLATION
...
That is all. Go about your lives now.

[taalismn]

"Sure you can have a potentially life-saving laser weapon! Just how much do you value your life? We have some nice contracts that will give you that laser weapon in return for a few years of service to the company! That's more years than you might otherwise have WITHOUT the laser weapon, right?"

"For those prices, I better be GUARANTEED those extra years of life...or my life back."

[Kelorin]

Sometimes I think Rifts works on the Astroboy principle. The smaller and more compact a robot, gun or device is, the more powerful it becomes. In comparison, really big robots and guns get proportionally weaker. (For comparison, note the main guns on Triax Devastator Mk I and Mk II).

Looking at it a different way, all of the Hovertrain's weapons are probably linked to an unlimited nuclear power source and have a greater range than the hand rifles. At book prices for e-clip recharging, the turreted weapons will eventually pay for themselves!

[Morik]

I don't know about the rest of you, but I found NG1 to be one of the worst books that has come out yet.

It looks very pretty and has mostly good artwork, but most of the bots were either a let-down or poorly-designed, most of the OCCs are worthless, a lot of stuff is way overpriced, and there's a whole lot of other issues.

Here's just one example: Hovertrain weapon costs

These come in a heavy turret but regardless they are insanely inflated for what you get. Some of your options are:

Light Laser Cannon (3D6 MD - 2000' range) 2 million credits
Medium LC (5D6 MD - 3000' range) 8 million credits
Heavy LC (1D4x10 MD - 4000' range) 15 million credits
Light Ion Cannon (4D6 MD - 1500' range) 6 million credits
Medium IC (6D6 MD - 1800' range) 8 million credits
Heavy IC (1D4x10+6 MD - 2000' range) 12 million credits
Medium Particle Beam (1D4x10+8 - 2000' range) 20 million credits
Heavy PB (1D6x10+10 - 2000' range) 35 million credits

By way of comparison:

NG-SSL20 laser rifle (6D6+6 MD - 2000' range) 60,000 credits
NG-P9 Heavy PB Rifle (1D4x10 MD -1600' range) 45,000 credits
NG-E15 Pulse Plasma rifle (2D4x10 MD -1600' range) 62,000 credits

Why would anybody spend millions when you can get the same thing or almost the same thing for under 100,000?

I know there's a 'relative power level' chart that puts NG well below the CS or Triax, but still most of the new bots are chew toys. I certainly wouldn't want to pilot most of them.

As a GM, there is almost nothing in NG1 that I can include in my campaign. After reading it, I quickly designated it a 'bathroom book'.

Hope the next one is better, but I'm not holding my breath.

The O.C.C.s are far from worthless....

I'd have to admit the NG Salse Rep is not my cup of tea but all the other one have a huge amount of skills.(skill classes have a place in this game) The L.P. Officer is basically James bond with Hand to Hand Commando and the backing of one of the top companies in the world. I would almost ban that O.C.C. from being picked because of the potential abuse of power a clever player could throw your way.

"Guys, we need to convince the river bandits they need to leave our village alone and not get killed doing it."

"It's ok I'm Bob the NG LPO I'll just radio them and tell them they have to stop raiding this town completely or I'll put a Withhold Order on their ass.

If that doesn't work, I'll get us some brand new fully equipped NG-8000 Super Maxes (you know the ones with the beehive grenade launchers that can fire a volley of 8 at a time that they can't dodge). Four of those should be able to take our 20 or 30 bandits.

Oh, and IF my company denies me that shipment of 'Bots I'll just radio ANY IMCN merc team who happens to be within range and ORDER them to kill them for us. Yup, I'm cool like that."

[Pepsi Jedi]

I don't know about the rest of you, but I found NG1 to be one of the worst books that has come out yet.

I couldn't disagree more, it's one of the better books they've produced.

It looks very pretty and has mostly good artwork, but most of the bots were either a let-down or poorly-designed, most of the OCCs are worthless, a lot of stuff is way overpriced, and there's a whole lot of other issues.

While I admit I don't like producing a world book in the 30s, with purposefully weaker bots and stuff, "In the Rifts World" it is what it is. I.E. in Rifts, Northern Gun is 5 to 10 years behind the CS and Traix. They're also, as a point a civilian producer of weapons and stuff. the CS and Traix are not. Nor is Northern Gun as big as the CS or the NGR. So the bots and what not in the book aren't going to be better than military vehicles produced by countries many times their size for their standing armies of MILLIONS.

Not for nothing but "Power Creep" has been vilified in rifts books for years and years. Every new book coming out having stronger weapons and stuff. people have complained about that for years and years. This book avoided that. It's been a huge complaint of players. Power creep gets brought up all the time and people never stop complaining about it. This book avoided it, and avoided it for a good in game reason.

The OOC's have worth. Not all are front line combat ones but I found them useful. The monster control one was really fun, as were the NG black ops.

Here's just one example: Hovertrain weapon costs

Ever price a 'real' train? They're expensive. And that's not in a post apocalyptic world setting, or trains that don't need tracks and can travel cross country.

These come in a heavy turret but regardless they are insanely inflated for what you get. Some of your options are:

Light Laser Cannon (3D6 MD - 2000' range) 2 million credits
Medium LC (5D6 MD - 3000' range) 8 million credits
Heavy LC (1D4x10 MD - 4000' range) 15 million credits
Light Ion Cannon (4D6 MD - 1500' range) 6 million credits
Medium IC (6D6 MD - 1800' range) 8 million credits
Heavy IC (1D4x10+6 MD - 2000' range) 12 million credits
Medium Particle Beam (1D4x10+8 - 2000' range) 20 million credits
Heavy PB (1D6x10+10 - 2000' range) 35 million credits

By way of comparison:

NG-SSL20 laser rifle (6D6+6 MD - 2000' range) 60,000 credits
NG-P9 Heavy PB Rifle (1D4x10 MD -1600' range) 45,000 credits
NG-E15 Pulse Plasma rifle (2D4x10 MD -1600' range) 62,000 credits

Why would anybody spend millions when you can get the same thing or almost the same thing for under 100,000?

That's not a fault of "NG1" That's a fault of "Rifts". You see it all over rifts. Troops with assult rifles that do as much or more damage than 20 foot long tank cannons. That's a setting flaw. One that's been addressed for .. well. Decades of time IRL. It's just one of the weird things about Palladium/Rifts. Different GM's handle it different ways. But it's not an "NG sucks because it's like this" you see it all over the Rifts setting.

I know there's a 'relative power level' chart that puts NG well below the CS or Triax, but still most of the new bots are chew toys. I certainly wouldn't want to pilot most of them.

There's factors that aren't being factored in.

1) Most people have no way to get CS or NGR bots. Why? Because they're the bots of Standing military forces. If the CS catch you in a CS bot, you're a red mist in the air. If other allied nations catch you in a CS bot, well they might not vape you on sight, but they're not going to want you to hang around, least a CS patrol come by and catch you. It'd be akin to having a US F22 Raptor fighter jet. If you had one you couldn't just fly it all around the US as, the only way you could have gotten it would be to steal it from the US Airforce, and.... they don't take kindly to that. If you flew it to Canada, they're going to turn you over to the US, because you clearly stole one of their fighter jets.

While they might let you land in North Korea (If they didn't already shoot you down) They're going to take the jet for their own purpose. Etc.

NG stuff is produced purposefully for the civilian market and is one of the few companies in NA that's not banned by the major power that "is" (The CS) It's even illegal to carry Wilks weapons in or around the CS now.

So while you can compare NG stuff to CS stuff, it's like comparing a civilian armored car maker to a US battle tank. (( not quite 100% dead on but the point is made))

2) You are acting like they're not of use. They very much are. And you can own them legally and not get vaprorized on sight by the CS. The 'people' of Rifts earth that are not 'protected' by the CS, want to have their MD bots and guns and gear and such. The NG stuff stands up very well in that setting. The Black Market stuff doesn't better them in bots. Few compaines do. Naurni stuff has it's own laundry list of problems (Including getting you killed by the CS OR NG.)

Unless you're planning on knocking off a Military with Millions of Troops and a known attitude that's less than friendly, you need a place to buy your MD gear and weapons. you have realitivly few choices, NG is the biggest and most wide spread of those choices with good reliable gear.

As a GM, there is almost nothing in NG1 that I can include in my campaign. After reading it, I quickly designated it a 'bathroom book'.

Hope the next one is better, but I'm not holding my breath.

Well maybe you skipped the first 100 pages that were setting? Which was quite good. I live here. lol. I loved seeing my home in the book, but more over it was useful. There is plenty to work with.

It seems very much you skipped that. (as you made no reference to it at all and focused 100% on stats.) Which is a failing in you as a GM. If all you need is numbers, you don't need more books. Just make up what ever numbers you want that make you feel good. The setting information, was excellent in the book.

As for the bots, well those are to taste, but your complaint seems to boil down to "The new book didn't have stronger bots than the books that came before it. So there's nothing there for me to use" Well A) They weren't supposed to be stronger than the CS or NGR stuff, and B) By comparing them to such you're already stacking the deck against NG.

People forget to 'look deep' at things some times in rpgs. NG totally has it's own place in the rifts setting both as a nation and as a company who produces the products (Not just bots and guns, they produce all sorts of domestic and common items too. From Toasters to Silverwear, TV's to watches). In a Post Apoc setting that's HUGE.

I'm not saying I like all the stats. The Bots guns and stuff often do need an upgrade to be realistic, but that's a setting wide problem. I don't often use bot's myself, so I'm not overly worried about it. I get much more use out of power armor and EBA. which will come in NG2.

*Shrugs* But yeah, if all you're doing is looking at stats and ignoring the setting, and what the stat's are attached to, you're going to be disappointed.

[Spinachcat]

After reading it, I quickly designated it a 'bathroom book'.

Most RPG buyers are no longer players, the dwindling customer base are collector/readers so creating bathroom books that offer little to actual play is the new normal of the RPG publishing world. It's not just PB. It's the hobby as a whole that does nothing to entice fresh blood and just capitalizes on who's left.

[Pepsi Jedi]

After reading it, I quickly designated it a 'bathroom book'.

Most RPG buyers are no longer players, the dwindling customer base are collector/readers so creating bathroom books that offer little to actual play is the new normal of the RPG publishing world. It's not just PB. It's the hobby as a whole that does nothing to entice fresh blood and just capitalizes on who's left.

Not really something you want to hear from a Megaversal ambassador...

I personally collect and read, as well as play. The NG book has plenty of play use. It's just not a twink book of maximum stats.

If one only reads books for bigger and badder guns/bots/whatever, and you skip 100 pages of setting and the realities of the setting as it reflects on the items in the books, then one may find less use.

Some people only want bigger guns. *Shrugs* I'm personally glad they're not catered to all of the time. (Some other systems cater to that more than Palladium and it just seems a waste of money to me. )

[Pepsi Jedi]

The O.C.C.s are far from worthless....

I'd have to admit the NG Salse Rep is not my cup of tea but all the other one have a huge amount of skills.(skill classes have a place in this game) The L.P. Officer is basically James bond with Hand to Hand Commando and the backing of one of the top companies in the world. I would almost ban that O.C.C. from being picked because of the potential abuse of power a clever player could throw your way.

Nobody is going to play a LPO.

You're very wrong. the NG LPO is a pretty badass OCC: Many people would play them. They're more than the equivalent of many merc and men at arms classes.

But if anybody did play an LPO, it would only be playable in a NG-based setting.

Also very very wrong. You should actually read the book Nightfactory, instead of just looking at stats. It's pointed out more than once that the Reach of NG is far more than just the UP of MI.

What good is an LPO going to be in Wormwood, Phase World, South America, Japan, Splynn, etc? None.

I'm not sure if it's amusing, how short sighted you are when you say stuff like that, or scary. the LPO is going to have the same usage and what not on Wormwood, Phase world, SA, Japan, Splynn as any man at arms. Did you LOOK at the class, past the special abilities?
Computer op, Detect concealment, Find Contraband, Intelligence, Interrogation, languages, literacy, parachuting, Pilot Hovercycles and Hovercraft, Prowl, Streetwize, Tailing, tracking, Undercover ops. WP Epistol, Erifle, Hand to hand Commando, or Martial Arts, Or Assassin, 6 other skills to round out,
Great starting gear, up to 7 cybernetic implants, and even bio-system replacments.

Yeah they work for NG, but serve as special forces commando's and Black Ops troops. That skill list is as good or better than the majority of other Mercs and special forces OOCs in the books. I'm not going to open 20 or more world books but take a peek yourself. That's an awesome skill list.

These guys are more than a match for CS grunts and even surpass CS officers in some areas. HTH Commando is a rare option and they get it off the bat.

I'm not saying it's the absolute best OCC in existance but it's very useful and nicely built. Are they going to excell a bit more in Northern Gun? Sure, but if you drop one on wormwood, he or she will do just as good as any other merc, or traditional Man at arms.

Other OCCs from NG that stink: Bush Pilot (lame special abilities),

Really? Did you miss the first one? "Can Pilot ___ANYTHING____" Any vehicle they ever come across they can climb in and pilot at 50%, even if they've never seen it before. That alone is worth dozens and dozens of other skills. It's an amazing special ability. Borderline "Too good"

Their emergency landing ability is big if you're playing Rifts as a post apoc setting. (Which admittedly, many people seem to forget) that added bonus when you're supposed to have penalties, could literally save your life.

The ability to fly in bad weather is also useful. Again. I live her. (( in NG) I know what the weather is light. If you look up my review of the book, that was one of my only faults, was that it didn't truly impress on the reader, how bad it can be.

Monster Responder (lame special abilities)

+2 perception, +1 inits, +2 Strike, +2 Parry, +2 dodge, against monsters and animals, including the Xits, Lessor supernatural beings, vampires, zombies, supernatural monsters, and many creatures of magic?

That's lame? Pretty useful to me.

The -2inits and -2 parry and dodge on the monster's side for the first attack is useful too.

(also, isn't every OCC in Rifts a "monster responder"?),

That's like saying isn't every guy in the army a sniper because they're all taught how to shoot a rifle.

Other OCC's can function as monster responders. This OCC represents those that train for it specially. The camouflague, the hunting. Lore for Demons and Monsters, Lore for Fairies and Creatures of magic, lore for Magic, Lore for Vampires, prowl, sniper (Themselves) Tracking and trapping animals, wilderness survival, Xenology, and Hand to hand expert, to start but can be upgraded.

These are specially trained guys that make their living doing their job and have a very nice set of starting skills to represent that.

Can a "Grunt" Try? sure, but he's not going to have the lores, or all the other specialized skills to do so. Nor will he have the combat bonuses against these sorts of things.

A Monster Responder could be very useful in many rifts games. Even in cities and stuff. The classic "Dungeon" in a city is reflected in a sewer crawl. Doesn't seem a big deal till you can actually -have- vampires, or demons or monsters in the sewer.

Police Officer (lame special abilities),

The OCC works great for "Civilized area police" and the special abilities are their areas of specialization, which allows you to build everything from a homicide detective to a swat team, to undercover agents, to highway patrol. Sure there are other law enforcement OCC's out there, but this one allows for specialization.

Sales Rep (lame special abilities)

The special abilities work for what the class 'is'.

You do realize the vast majority of the OCCs don't have a list of special abilities? Those only started cropping up once Rifts was more than half way through it's current run. (( I'm not sure if 'recently' works as it's been years, but only the later half of the series run)

If you open the old books none of the OOC's had special abilities, they had the OCC write up then the skill list and what not. I'd have to sit and go through like 50 books to see when it started up, but it wasn't there originally.

The only new OCC that has any merit whatsoever is the Robot Control OCC.

I'm sorry, but your posts ignore huge swaths of the book and read like you only read stats, and only combat stats at that. You've made statements like the LPO would be useless out side of NG, when the class's skills and abilities are high calibur man at arms. That others have no use. or are 'Lame'.

I'm not some suck up. Most here will tell you that I'll critisize Palladium if I think something needs it. That being said your statements above are not accurate. Any sort of imagination can find use for much of the stuff you've just written off as lame.

There's more to the game than combat numbers Nightfactory. heck even some of the classes you've passed off as lame, could kick alot of butt if that IS how you're measuring them. You're just not reading the book, or not fully comprehending what you have read.

You say the LPO has no usage out side of NG.

--Before-- the NG book came out, I played in a game that went on for over two years, where the group, played the equivalent of LPO, before we even knew there was one. We were hardly ever "In" NG. We went all over carrying out missions for them, working as independent contractors (Again the book wasn't out yet so we as a group made up stuff we needed) We would go and collect gear for NG to Study, and reverse engineer (Which is big in the book, if you read it) Up to and including going over to the NGR during the war with the Demons and getting our hands on some of their stuff. Our group brought back NGR Umber armor for NG so they could knock it off. Got the md hammer too. And that's just one example of a LPO going far afield from the UP. Sure we didn't have the LPO names, the book wouldn't come out for years yet, but we DID what the LPO did for the company and if we had the book, the LPO had a better skill set for it and such.

I'm sorry you can't envision usage for the things, but that's not a fault in the book.... that's a fault in the player/gm. As there's plenty of usage there.

[eliakon]

So.....what we seem to have here is.....That people have different personal tastes, surprisingly different people have different tastes.

[Pepsi Jedi]

I couldn't disagree more, it's one of the better books they've produced.

We will definitely have to disagree on that.

Doesn't hurt my feelings. Your perception of things seems very limited.

While I admit I don't like producing a world book in the 30s, with purposefully weaker bots and stuff, "In the Rifts World" it is what it is. I.E. in Rifts, Northern Gun is 5 to 10 years behind the CS and Traix. They're also, as a point a civilian producer of weapons and stuff. the CS and Traix are not. Nor is Northern Gun as big as the CS or the NGR. So the bots and what not in the book aren't going to be better than military vehicles produced by countries many times their size for their standing armies of MILLIONS.

Most of the bots have lousy MDC, underpowered weapons, and bad design. Not just from a Stat standpoint, but also from a playability standpoint (I will give examples farther down). Most Black Market bots are better than NG, though the BM has arguably a lot less finances and production ability than NG. That doesn't make any sense

Just because you don't like them, doesn't make them bad. The underpowered weapons are there on purpose. I went into the why's already.
The BM don't make that many robots. Some sure, but not an entire catalog of them.

Not for nothing but "Power Creep" has been vilified in rifts books for years and years. Every new book coming out having stronger weapons and stuff. people have complained about that for years and years. This book avoided that. It's been a huge complaint of players. Power creep gets brought up all the time and people never stop complaining about it. This book avoided it, and avoided it for a good in game reason.

I hear people talk about that occasionally online but 'power creep' has never been an issue in any of the games I've run or played in.

I'm not trying to be mean in any way, but I can tell. Many of your statements show this. You seem to prefer the other way. Which some do. Some people want bigger guns with more dice every book. I've met them. I know they exist. They tend to only care about the guns and bots and stuff and skip, as you did, the 100 pages of content previous.

I'm not going to say my way is 'better'. It's different.

I will say that many that I play with (And many here) look down on those that only want the biggest, baddest, most powerful (Whatever). I'm sure those that play that way, look down on those of us that write detailed character histories and like the settings and read them and try and make a character that fits in with the settings and not just 'Absolute top numbers for everything' types.

If you have a good GM, power creep is not an issue.

Likewise, if you have a good GM, underpowered weapons arn't an issue either. The GM fixes it on the fly. Or sits down and fixes it before hand. Ask Jaymz. lol he restats alot of stuff.

The OOC's have worth. Not all are front line combat ones but I found them useful. The monster control one was really fun, as were the NG black ops.

Nobody is ever going to play an LPO or a NG Sales Rep. Nobody.

Wrong. As I pointed out why in the previous post. You're just bold face wrong. I've played the eqivilent of an LPO in the past, and once NG2 comes out, Iplan on playing an 'official' one in our next Rifts game. The same group that was based out of NG for years, before the books came out, is getting back together with the books in hand. We're waiting for the 2nd one, because we tend to use power armor and vehicles more than giant robots, but not only would I play one. I'm planning on playing one. One or two others in the group likely will too, though some of them are eyeing the monster responder.

Also the Bush Pilot, Monster Responder, and Police OCCs have nothing special to attract anyone to them.

Again this was addressed in the previous post, but you're wrong. Far wrong. They may not attract you and your buddies, but they have qualities that are very useful. From the above statements, again, it's pretty clear your style of play. They may not be as attractive to you, but you're making sweeping statements I know are untrue, if for nothing else, I myself prove them false.

The only new OCC worth anything is the Robot Control OCC because its special abilities are really great.

Again, wrong, but the way you've presented yourself and your views of the game, I see why you would incorrectly claim that. You can't use absolutes when talking to a group of people, when you're only speaking as to your own preference.

Ever price a 'real' train? They're expensive. And that's not in a post apocalyptic world setting, or trains that don't need tracks and can travel cross country.

Your rebuttal really doesn't address the weapon cost infalation issue that I brought up.

It addresses it because they're ungodly expensive.

Why would anybody spend millions when you can get the same thing or almost the same thing for under 100,000?

That's not a fault of "NG1" That's a fault of "Rifts". You see it all over rifts. Troops with assult rifles that do as much or more damage than 20 foot long tank cannons. That's a setting flaw. One that's been addressed for .. well. Decades of time IRL. It's just one of the weird things about Palladium/Rifts. Different GM's handle it different ways. But it's not an "NG sucks because it's like this" you see it all over the Rifts setting.

Yes, it is a problem in many of the Rifts books, but it's especially absurd in this case. For the cost of a single Light Laser Cannon (3D6 @ 2,000,000 credits), you could buy 32 NG-SSL20 rifles which have the same range but do over twice as much dammage (6D6+6). Also, calling a weapon that does only 3D6 a "cannon" is more than just a little bit ridiculous. [/quote]

I don't disagree that the "Large" and "Vehicle" Weapons in Rifts are drastically underpowered in most cases. Including these. I'm just pointing out that it's nothing new and is SYSTEM WIDE. Not just in NG. It'd be weirder, if they were NOT like that in NG. That they are, is just par for the course. We adjust them up accordingly. A cannon that needs a giant hover train to carry it should do many times the damage of a man portable assault rifle. No doubt. That goes for all rifts weapons though. There's that power creep edging in.

There's factors that aren't being factored in.

1) Most people have no way to get CS or NGR bots. Why? Because they're the bots of Standing military forces. If the CS catch you in a CS bot, you're a red mist in the air. If other allied nations catch you in a CS bot, well they might not vape you on sight, but they're not going to want you to hang around, least a CS patrol come by and catch you.

Not true. For example, in Rifts Mercenaries, Crow's Commandos (p.61) have 8 Triax Ulti-Max. Braddock's Bad Boys have 10 UAR-1 Enforcers, 8 Triax X-500 Foragers, 10 Triax X-10 Predators, and 8 Triax Ultimax. [/quote]

Those aren't your player characters, and none of those listed are the new CS stuff or the new Traix stuff. You're talking about NPC groups. I'm pointing out the guy with some money in his pocket going to buy a robot, isn't very likely to be able to buy Standing Military Robots from the Robot store. If you DO, you face the consequences of being caught in them.

Larsen's Brigade has 1 Death Head Transport (!), 22 CS Sky Cycles, 36 CS Mark-5 APCs, 40 CS SAMAS, 30 Triax X-10s, 30 Triax X-100s, 20 Triax X-500s, 16 CS UAR-1s, and 16 CS Spider walkers. If these groups can go around with such a mix of CS & Triax gear, so can anybody else.

I suggest you actually read the write up on Larsen's Brigade, to understand why they're the exception to the rule. And... again. Not for nothing. Your group isn't as good as the biggest and best Merc army out there.

So while you can compare NG stuff to CS stuff, it's like comparing a civilian armored car maker to a US battle tank. (( not quite 100% dead on but the point is made))

So why bother buying any NG stuff then when you can get better bots and vehicles at a much lower cost from someone else?

Because you typically can't. If you live in the CS you're not going to use a stolen CS bot, or you could be vaporized any second of any day. Traix stuff is expensive and hard to get ahold of in NA. You may have the option of Black Market stuff but.. that's black Market stuff. You might get good stuff. You might get knock offs. You might get knifed and robbed. Again if you live in the CS. They can come and just take your stuff and maybe kill you. Wilks weapons are even outlawed now, they get confiscated and you might get a beating for having them. Naurni get you instantly vaporized.

NG? They sell everything. "Legally". You want a waffle iron, you can probably get one in the NG store. You want a 40 foot tall combat robot, you can get one from the NG store too. (They might have to fly it in. Such things might not always be in stock, depending on your store.) Are you going to find CS military gear at the CS gear store? Oh? There's no CS gear store? It's illegal? *nods* Yeah...

Now, not everone plays in North America. That's fine. But the point is about Northern Gun, who's main market is North America. If your'e in Japan, you likely won't find many NG weapons for sale, but that's not really what we're talking about.

Having an NG weapon in north America isn't a death sentence, from the CS, who have -millions of troops- and how go far far out side the CS boarders as well.

2) You are acting like they're not of use. They very much are. And you can own them legally and not get vaprorized on sight by the CS. The 'people' of Rifts earth that are not 'protected' by the CS, want to have their MD bots and guns and gear and such. The NG stuff stands up very well in that setting. The Black Market stuff doesn't better them in bots. Few compaines do. Naurni stuff has it's own laundry list of problems (Including getting you killed by the CS OR NG.)

The whole linchpin of your argument is that the "CS will get ya", but if that's true then how have all these other armament companies stayed in business all these years?

There's not that many, and they act illegally. Your arguement is sort of like "Well if Drugs are illegal and you get locked up if you're caught, how come people still buy and use drugs" Well they do, they just get locked up if they're caught.

Difference being... "Locked up" vs "Vaporized"

Obviously the CS is not a deterent toward buying other stuff.

You find it in those sections of the book with out stats, that you skip over.

The CS is a deterrent to buying other stuff. Ask the Naurni. NG basicly "Sicked" the CS on them and they were obliterated. Sure they've come back but in secret with like a dozen traveling vendors for the entire planet? With one store in merc town? Being vaporized on sight is an awesome reason not to carry a thing.

Do some GM's not play that out? Sure. That's a flaw of the GM ignoring the setting though. (Or one deciding to change the setting. Which is fine, but you're no longer playing by Canon. Which is also fine, but you can't claim that something is one way, if you have to change Canon to get it there.)

Also, the CS is not everywhere. I don't know where your games take place, but mine are all over the world (Rifts Earth) and in many dimensions.
If my PCs are exploring the Amazon river area, the last thing they're going to be worried about is the CS showing and nailing them for using Naruni or Kittani weapons.

I addressed this above but it holds true. You're right. But we're not talking about the Multiverse. We're discussing NG and their typical sales areas. You'd still be much more likely to find NG weapons in the Amazon than a CS one.

NG is in NA, their main sales location is NA. We're talking about the NG book, so it's pretty safe to say we're talking aboout NG and where NG sales their stuff.

Unless you're planning on knocking off a Military with Millions of Troops and a known attitude that's less than friendly, you need a place to buy your MD gear and weapons. you have realitivly few choices, NG is the biggest and most wide spread of those choices with good reliable gear.

No, the Black Market is. They are everywhere, but the NG is isolated in one small part of the world.

The black market sells NG stuff too. , more over, they produce their own stuff now too. You might find the odd CS weapon there but it's not going to be the majority. If nothing else, it's better for them not to sell CS stuff. If a CS patrol comes by an stepps into their traveling store, and sees CS weapons on the wall. That's a dead Black Marketeer. If they step into the store and see NG stuff on the wall. Not an instant death sentence (Might still end up dead, but it's not assured)

Again, if you read the first 100 pages of the book you seem to have skipped, you'd know that NG's reach is long, and they sell all over NA. Same place the Black Market tends to sell to.

Well maybe you skipped the first 100 pages that were setting? Which was quite good. I live here. lol. I loved seeing my home in the book, but more over it was useful. There is plenty to work with.

It seems very much you skipped that. (as you made no reference to it at all and focused 100% on stats.) Which is a failing in you as a GM. If all you need is numbers, you don't need more books. Just make up what ever numbers you want that make you feel good. The setting information, was excellent in the book.

Well, actually, I just mentioned the train weapon stats as just one example and I said that in my OP. There's a TON of other things wrong with NG1. Here's just a few more examples:

It seems my observation was correct. You just go straight to the stats. Read the book Nightfactory. It explains much of the stuff you're confused by.

01. EX-9 Behemoth Super-Explorer

First, the illustration itself is way, way over-detailed.

The art is TOO good? Interesting complaint. LOL

I had to look at it several times to determine if it had three legs or four; the left front leg is almost completely hidden.

Art is subjective, but your lack of perception doesn't make it bad. I loved the pic when I saw it. It's an awesome lookin' mech.

Second, nobody will ever be able to afford it at 142,000,000 credits.

Why? Because you say so? It's not meant to be a personal hotrod by one character toolin' around town. It's meant to be a moble base for a larger group or unit. A group of mercs could pool their money and buy one. It's not cheep by any means but it's not absurdly expensive either. If 20 guys went in together it's alot cheaper. Again, not something you just buy on a whim, but moble bases don't come cheep. It's not targeted at single person buiers, or small groups of 4 or 5. It's targeted at groups of 20 to 40. But more accurately likely groups even larger than that, that use it as a moble base and travel around 'with' it. If you can afford to buy one, you've got dozens of other vehicles that your group is also moving around in/with.

Third, nobody would buy one anyways (in game play) because it's fairly useless: it's a huge, slow target with minimal weapons and most actual players and GMs concentrate on combat when it comes to bots, not going around exploring in a science lab

You again use words like "nobody would buy one anyway because it's fairly useless" as it has minimal weapons. This again shows your style of play. You're not the only one that playss that way, but your way, is not the ONLY way. That vehicle is very much loved by fans. lol Check out the other NG1 threads. People love that thing. Many saying they've waited years for the exact sort of thing that it is. It's not meant to be a front line combat robot. It's meant to be a mobile base of operations for much larger units.

Not everyone that plays only cares about guns and missiles Nightfactory. Some of us actually do go exploring in science labs. I played a game once where our group worked for a food company in NG. We went down to Dino Swamp to hunt, kill and slaughter, Dinosaurs for their 'Dino-Burger' restaurants.

02. Gunner in unprotected mount on outside of bot (Bigfoot, Bulldog, Okemos)

Those have been explained by the artist.

Dumbest idea ever. What a great way to get targeted by snipers, hit by mini-missile explosions, and to leave yourself undefended if someone boards the bot.

Ever see a humvee with a turret? Or a battle tank with a machine gun on top? MDC armor helps alot against snipers. (it's almost impossible for a 'one shot one kill' option with man portable weapons if the guy is in MDC armor) And if someone's throwing missiles, that guy might just duck inside the robot till missles stop flying around. lol.

Not every engagement is against forces that have missiles. Some are monster fights, some are against much less armed opponents, etc.

Granted, I'd much rather not be the guy on the outside gun, but they have uses. Robot vechiles have blind spots that can be exploited. Eyes on the out side help to minimize that.

If I was fighting an Okemos, the first thing I'd do is jump on the roof and stick a vibroblade in the gunner; he can't dodge. Instead of this, why not just have a fully-enclosed turret?

What about the 3000 meters of range do you have to cross before you get with in range to try that? You can jump 20 feet up? While dodging fire from all the weapons or getting caught by one of the arms? That's if you're not kicked out of the air? That's if they don't open up on you from a mile out with the mini missles.

You say you'd stick a vibro knife in the gunner. You realize if they can afford an 11,000,000 to 14,000,000 bot, that they can afford MD armor right? you some how manage to get past all the weapons on foot. (( not impossible. Just not as easy as saying "I'd run and jump on top of it") Manage to jump 20 feet up on a moving bot. Avoiding all the weapons and arms and stuff at point blank range.. and go to stab the guy in the fourteen million dollar robot.. you're going to find he's in EVA armor. Smirks at you and draws a pistol and shoots you in the face. That's if he doesn't just swing the turret like a 10 foot long baseball bat and send you flying.

You say 'He can't dodge" but you don't know that. The entire bot coudl dodge. The gunner could smack you with the gun, or parry your attack with an arm. Or lean to the side.

Your plan only is insured of success if both the pilot and the gunner are asleep and not in armor. Other wise, they have alot of options to ... talk you out of your planned course of action.

is it impossible? no. A juicer or something might pull it off, but it's not a 'given', and if the pilot and gunner are awake, they're going to use those missles and cannons and arms and what not to try and stop you.

03. Glass pilot compartment (Beachmaster, Behemoth, Bulldog, Gunwolf, Megabot, Ogre, Okemos, Skorpion, Thundercaster)

Absolutely nothing dangerous about this.

MD Glass. We've had it in Rifts for decades. Move along.

04. MMB-01 "Big Papa" and MMB-02 "Junior"

Nobody will ever pilot either of these bots in an actual game.

YOU may not. Other's might. Again these are two of the bots that many fans loved and appreciated when the books came out. Many people wanted bots other than "100% front line combat bots" These have their place.

I don't much like them, but I won't claim I know everyone's mind. Again, go check some of the NG1 threads. Those bots were well received by some.

05. Extremely low MDC in some bots

Bigfoot (450), Bruiser (420), Gunbot (390). A full-conversion borg with heavy body armor is tougher than any of these. Also, ironically, the Bulldog is an explorer, but it has more MDC than the Gunwolf which is a combat bot.

These have been addressed a number of times before.

06. Illustration issues

As shown on the Grizzly, the "Armor Buster" laser cannon wouldn't be able to raise itself to a level firing position because the left forearm weapon would block it.

..... Or it could pivot around the back and over the top to achieve firing position. Or, the robot could twist or bend his left arm? Come on man. Hold your arms out straight. Palms facing each other. Now.. rotate your arms and hands till your hands point down.

See how easy that is?

The hovertrain only has one laser cannon on the right side? What if someone attacks them from the front on the left side? Note, if you look careful at the illustration, you can see the tip of a 2nd laser cannon pointing on the right side, but the illustrator and the description writer apparently didn't communicate.

The hover trains have interchangeable cars depending on need and what not. More over they don't travel alone. Did you happen to see all the bots and stuff flying around with it? Worth way too much money to send out alone.

NG-SE17 Laser Carbine (p.196) clearly has two e-clip ports on the illustration, but only one port in the description.

One might not be an eclip port. One could just be storage. One of my shotguns has a port where I can slide in extra shells. That doesn't mean they're loaded into the gun. The eclip you see furthest to the rear could just be stored there. To load it into the rifle you drop the front eclip. Pull the second one from the bracket and slap it in. (( I don't like that art myself, but it doesn't HAVE to be like you're suspecting. I could just be a storage place for an extra eclip)

The NG Solar Mini-Laser (p.197) says it can take a standard e-clip. Exactly where do plug it in?

In the eclip port.

07. The new Megabot is worse than the original Multibot

Weapons systems are almost exactly the same, though the Megabot has additional short-range missles and the Tri-Barrel cannon.

Original: 290 MDC without flyer. Megabot: 160 MDC without flyer.
Original flyer: 240mph @ 10,000 feet. Megabot flyer: 250mph @ 500 feet.

Also, as pointed out in the text, the Megabot's main gun can't be used most of the time if connected, and the front of the megabot
gives other bots something to grab onto.

08. Blocker Combat Robot's shield

How exactly does this work in game terms? Are we to believe that this clunky bot is fast enought parry mini-missiles?

I imagine you use it, like a shield. With radar and what not, and robot reflexes, combat programs that carry out movement and what not, it could be as simple as hitting a button or even a verbal command. Your threat screen might light up with a red triangle and you could hit one button with a macro that tells the bot to shield front. Shield right. Shield Left. Shield front left, shield front right, etc.

I play Wow. Macros are not that hard to develop. hell they could have "Controllers' Like a video game where they hit the joystick in one direction and hit a button and the bot yanks the shield around to cover that area.

09. Most Bot Weapons Range Tops Out at 1600 feet

Not at all. Just in the one with the turrent you said you'd run and make a 20 foot jump onto, had missiles that could reach a mile and a weapon that could reach out 3000 feet.
Beach master has torpedoes that can reach a mile, Missiles that can reach a mile, a rail cannon that reaches 4,000 ft
Behemoth has missiles that can reach a mile,
Super behemoth, Rail gun 4,000 ft, Missile launchers, don't have range on them but all the others reach at least a mile
Bigfoot: Plasma cannon, 2,000 ft, Secondary defence, missiles, 1 mile, Laser cannon, 4000 ft, Missile launcher, 5 miles,
Bison: No weapons over 1,600 ft
Blocker: Laser turret, 3,000 ft,Chest missiles, 1 mile,
Bruiser: Mini Missiles, 1 mile,
Buffalo: Missiles, 1 mile,
Bulldog: Main gun turret, 3,000 ft, Rail gun 4,000 ft, Missiles, varies but a mile or more.
Gunbot: Nose gun 5,000 ft,/1,800 ft, Missiles, 1 mile, Grenade cannon 1,800 ft

So out of the first ten bots, Only one bot had weapons that didn't reach out over 1,600 feet. The one bot in the first 10 that came from gladiator rings. Still 9 out of the first 10 had at least one weapon that can reach over 1,600 ft, often they have weapons that can reach a mile. I could go all the way through but I think 9 out of the first 10, prove you wrong.

Why?

Because.... You're wrong.

10. Cover illustration discrepancy

Why is there a Ogre exploration bot fighting a dragon? Bad choice for the cover.

Because sometimes a dragon shows up, and the ones there have an Ogre along? It's not like the dragon would fly down and then pause and go "Oh. Pardon me, but the Ogre isn't optimized to kill me. Would you like to return to your base, perhaps 100s of miles away and get a bot to better kill me?"

Sometimes they're just like "RAR!! BITES THE FACE!!!" and you make do with what you happen to have. lol

11. Seasnake Series weapons are pointless and have crappy dammage

They have a point. Just not one you might use.

"In a bid to dig into its competitors’ pockets, Northern Gun has introduced the Seasnake line of energy weapons. Based off the company’s earlier blue-green laser designs, each Seasnake is powered by a low-cost capacitor and energy refraction system that produces blue-green laser light. Every Seasnake laser
weapon works when submerged and has vents that allow water to drain when the weapon is brought onto dry land."

There's your point. To dig into competitors pockets, and to produce a line of blue-green lasers that work under water. This was addressed way back in Rifts undersees.

You may notice, if you look, Northern Gun is located in the Upper Pennisula of Michigan. Sandwiched between two great lakes. There's alot of water up here. They're pretty too. You may also notice, that most of the cities, are along the shores. There's many reasons for that, but.. well yeah. We have alot of water here and in Rifts, the water is still there and sometimes things happen on or under it.

Many other books have blue-green lasers so this is nothing new. The dammage they do is terrible: 1D4+1, 2D4+2, 3D4+3, 1D6+4. Only the SE17 (3D6) and SE20 (3D6+4) do any decent damage.

And 22 pistols don't do as much damage as .50s. They still sell 100s of 22 pistols for ever .50. Out side of role playing games, not everyone buys the absolute biggest gun in the world every time. Guns are bought for 100s of different reason. Not the least of which is 'What feels good in your hand" an "what you're using them for". I have..... some firearms. None of which are the absolute biggest on the market. I have .38's .40s, 12 gauge, 5.56, .308. There's bigger pistols and rifles. I chose my guns for other reasons than "It's the biggest"

Again, the way you play, isn't the way that everyone plays.

12. Strange additional text regarding Particle Beam weapons

The PB713, P5, P7, P9, and P85 all have a note next to the damage: "Vampires, werebeasts, and mummies are impervious."

First, DUH.

Second, should we assume that all the other NG weapons do affect these creatures since there is no disclaimer next to them? Why even bother to mention this at all?

Welcome to Palladium books. lol Their editing is not the best in the business, and they looooove their Cut and Paste. But that's a "Palladium books" thing. Not a "Northern gun" thing or even a 'Rifts" thing. That's company wide.

As for the bots, well those are to taste, but your complaint seems to boil down to "The new book didn't have stronger bots than the books that came before it. So there's nothing there for me to use" Well A) They weren't supposed to be stronger than the CS or NGR stuff, and B) By comparing them to such you're already stacking the deck against NG.

Most of the NG bots are undergunned and underarmored next to just about everything else on Rifts Earth.

naaa. You just don't like um. Heck you make claims that aren't even remotely true about them like the above range issue.

Are their weapons underpowered for big ol robots? Sure, but that's a "Rifts System Wide" thing, and easy enough to fix if you choose to. It's not something only found in NG1

For what they cost, anybody is better off buying something decent rather than a walking death-trap from NG.

Support your statement?

*Shrugs* But yeah, if all you're doing is looking at stats and ignoring the setting, and what the stat's are attached to, you're going to be disappointed.

Players tend to look at the stats, and that's my concern with NG1.

Some look at the setting and the world they're playing in as well.

Not you, but some do.

They get the entire picture. You get the stats. If you ignore all the setting and the reasoning and the explinations on the power levels and JUST look at the stats, you're not going to get it. The power level and stuff are actually directly addressed in the book a number of times. It's not the books fault you won't read it.

I can't imagine anybody actually wanting to buy a NG bot or weapon because they're simply too wimpy.

[/quote]

Then your imagination is severly limited. The book got glowing reviews for the most part. You don't like it. That's clear. The reviews aren't Universal. There's been a couple that don't like it. Can't please everyone.

Thing is your complaints don't really match what's in the book, or the ones that are valid, are true of the majority of rifts books. Not just this one.

many of your points just are not true, like the range issue, like the "Noone would play this or that" when I for one have and plan to again play exactly those.

It might not shine to --your play style--. Which is fine. Reading your post it's pretty clear what you care about when you play. That's fine. You are --not-- the only one. There are many that share your style.

But not all. Not universally. Many do not play the way you do. You can't apply your some what... tail end of the bell curve, for everyone, and claim that "Noone" will do this or the like. You can say "I would never use this bot, and here's why" but you can't say "Noone would ever use this thing" or "noone would ever play this class" Again, I'm just one guy but I prove you wrong on some of those statements. So of two people there's at least one person that WOULD play the classes you don't like. And that's just out of a pool of two.

[Pepsi Jedi]

So.....what we seem to have here is.....That people have different personal tastes, surprisingly different people have different tastes.

Yeah, funny how that works, eh?

I'm just pointing out what I think is wrong with NG1. I respect Pepsi Jedi's view that he likes the book, but I don't appreciate him trying to tell me that I "not reading the book" because he disagrees with my position.

Thing is you're not. You're not pointing out your perception. You repeatedly use statements like 'Noone is ever going to play this" or "Noone would ever use this" You use absolutes all through your posts.

You aren't saying "I, Nightfactory would never play that OOC" You're claiming noone else ever would and you'd never see X, y or Z used in the game.

That's the thing. I'm actually the one pointing out that people have different tastes, and that your tastes aren't universal. You're the one using words like "Noone" and "Never" which are absolutes and sweeping.

[Pepsi Jedi]

You're very wrong. the NG LPO is a pretty badass OCC: Many people would play them. They're more than the equivalent of many merc and men at arms classes.

I disagree. Other than their skills, there is nothing whatsoever about them to attract players to the OCC.

I've already proven you wrong. lol. They're fun to play, and you can set up entire game campaigns around them. "Nothing whatsoever about them to attract players to the OOC" Your second sentence of this post and you're already using absolutes, that I've already proven wrong, as I've said I have played the equivalent of the class prior to the book coming out and plan to play one in my next game.

I prove you wrong by simply being here.

Also very very wrong. You should actually read the book Nightfactory, instead of just looking at stats. It's pointed out more than once that the Reach of NG is far more than just the UP of MI.

Please quit telling me that I have not read the book because you can't refute my arguments.

I've refuted every one of your arguments. And it's clear you didn't read the book. If you did, many of your complaints were explained at length. You skipped to the stats.

I am stating that many things are wrong with NG1 including the stats.

No. The only thing you've cited wrong with the book are the stats, and some art you didn't think matched up with the stats.

I'm not sure if it's amusing, how short sighted you are when you say stuff like that, or scary. the LPO is going to have the same usage and what not on Wormwood, Phase world, SA, Japan, Splynn as any man at arms. Did you LOOK at the class, past the special abilities?
Computer op, Detect concealment, Find Contraband, Intelligence, Interrogation, languages, literacy, parachuting, Pilot Hovercycles and Hovercraft, Prowl, Streetwize, Tailing, tracking, Undercover ops. WP Epistol, Erifle, Hand to hand Commando, or Martial Arts, Or Assassin, 6 other skills to round out,
Great starting gear, up to 7 cybernetic implants, and even bio-system replacments.

You're quoting stats to me and then telling me to look past the stats?

I'm pointing out that your statement is false for a number of reasons. Not the least of which, is that the class comes with a number of skills and abilitys that make it useful in many different areas and type of game. Just as useful as any of the merc or headhunter classes in the same sort of places and games.

I note that when it's pointed out how good the class actually is. You dodge it.

Really? Did you miss the first one? "Can Pilot ___ANYTHING____" Any vehicle they ever come across they can climb in and pilot at 50%, even if they've never seen it before. That alone is worth dozens and dozens of other skills. It's an amazing special ability. Borderline "Too good"

Whom is quoting stats now? Get your argument straight.

I'm addressing your specific claim. Your claim was that they had lame special abilities. I'm quoting...... special abilities.... lol. The one above is anything but lame. I proved you wrong, on the exact topic you claimed.

You're dodging again.

Their emergency landing ability is big if you're playing Rifts as a post apoc setting. (Which admittedly, many people seem to forget) that added bonus when you're supposed to have penalties, could literally save your life.

The ability to fly in bad weather is also useful. Again. I live her. (( in NG) I know what the weather is light. If you look up my review of the book, that was one of my only faults, was that it didn't truly impress on the reader, how bad it can be.

Maybe these two abilities would be worthwhile if you were playing RoleMaster, but in Rifts situations where PCs have to make emergency landings and have issues piloting in bad weather are nonexistent in most people's games.

You can't possibly say that they're nonexistent in most people's games. You don't know. Many people's games have such. I've played in games where such is very important. It's the difference between dieing in a firy crash or surviving.

You may never have it happen in your game, but as pointed out repeatedly, your game is not every one elses.

I cannot think of a single Rifts game ever in the past 10+ years where either of these skills would've come in to play.

I can. In the before mentioned game where our group worked for NG as black ops agents, getting tech for NG to Reverse engineer, we were shot down in the NGR, during the war there.

Monster Responder

+2 perception, +1 inits, +2 Strike, +2 Parry, +2 dodge, against monsters and animals, including the Xits, Lessor supernatural beings, vampires, zombies, supernatural monsters, and many creatures of magic?

Here you are quoting stats again after repeatedly condescendingly telling me not to do that. Egg meet Face.

Your face you mean? You do realize Im directly refuting a claim you made.. about the special abilities. You said the special ablities suck. I'm addressing your statement. To address your statement on the ability, I'm pointing out the ability you claim sucks, does not suck. lol.

Your defense is "I said something that wasn't true, but because you used stats to show it wasn't true, ha ha!!"

It proves you were wrong, in the exact statement you were quoted. Read your own claim that was disproved.

I'm sorry, but your posts ignore huge swaths of the book and read like you only read stats, and only combat stats at that. You've made statements like the LPO would be useless out side of NG, when the class's skills and abilities are high calibur man at arms. That others have no use. or are 'Lame'.

You keep missing the point. Let me try to iterate it again:

Players are not going to want to play a NG LPO

I do. I'm a player. Therefore your claim is wrong. Period. Other's in my group have also indicated intent to play them, or Monster Responders in our next game. Further proving you wrong.

because there is nothing special about it.

Sure there is. You just don't like it. They work for NG. That's pretty special. As a class in and of itself it's very useful in a wide swath of application.

It has a lot of skills, but a lot of other OCCs have the same skills

Show me. Show me a lot of other OOC's that have the same skills. How many OOC's for instance start with HTH Commando?

and they also have some really cool special abilities. Why play a LPO with nothing special to it? You might as well play a Vagabond.

There's plenty special about it. Your not liking it due to very narrow view of the game, doesn't ruin the class. I've played the class (before the class had the name) and it was loads of fun. Having the backing of NG is no small thing.

There's more to the game than combat numbers Nightfactory.

I'm making a specific argument and you're not only not addressing it,

I've addressed all your arguments. I've proven them invalid. My point is that you're "Only" looking at the stats. You're missing the setting and explanation for them.

but you're trying to say it doesn't count because I should 'look at the big picture'.

you should. It addresses much of your complaints.

I've played RPGs for over 20 years;

I doubt that very much.

I know there is more to the game than numbers.

Your posts do not show such deeper understanding. You may possess it, but all I can see are your posts here, and they do not indicate, -to me- such an understanding. The only thing you've commented on are numbers and art not matching numbers, and totally unsubstantiated and false claims about "Nooone would play this or use that"

But what I am saying is that the numbers in NG1 do not make sense and players would be fools for purchasing NG1 gear because it will get them killed out in the world when they go up against almost anybody.

Most of your claims were proven false. In other area's, it's a system wide issue, where in other items made by other companies in other books are hobbled by the same issue.

Also, I'm talking about the book, NG1, as a whole.

No. You're not. You haven't addressed the setting in the slightest. The first 100 or so pages of the book haven't been in any of your posts. You're talking about the book, in HALF. The half with the stats for the bots and guns. lol.

You keep trying to pigeonhole it into stats, but I've brought up many more issues than just stats.

No you haven't. You've complained about stats (Incorrectly as was proven by the range issue where the first 9 out of 10 bots in the book proved you wrong) And you've brought up art, which you say wouldn't match the stats.

I guess your concept of attacking someone on top of a 20 foot moving robot is not technically about stats, but is about design, but was also refuted.

In my last post, I mentioned 10 things that were messed up with the book which I see you completely ignored.

I didn't ignore them. I addressed them in a separate post and showed how you were wrong. Glaringly so in most cases. I just didn't combine the two posts, as they're pretty long to start with and take a few minutes to respond to. And I type fast.

Sounds like you are one of those fans who feels that Palladium can do no wrong...

You're very very very wrong. I see Palladium as it is. You can ask around. You can ask NMI if I'm someone who feels that palladium can do no wrong. he's the head moderator. (Though he'd likely be annoyed if you bothered him with something silly like this.)

Most people attribute me to the Cabal. Not the White Knights.

I love Palladium, I point out flaws I see. I even get in trouble for doing so some times. When I point out the flaws, it's due to my love of the game and want them fixed, but I do point out flaws. Quite frequently and vocally.

NG1 is a good book. Not perfect, but good. Many of your complaints just don't hold water, or are complaints that are system wide and not 'NG1 Only'. They've been addressed.

If you want to see me tear up a book, ask about Rifts Australia. Or Spirit West. lol. I'm very much not a fan who feels that Palladium can do no wrong.

I just have a different play style from you.

[ZINO]

Ok my questions IS there a NGR Book 2 coming out?

[taalismn]

Dead thread walking....Counting down in 5, 4,...

[Pepsi Jedi]

Ok my questions IS there a NGR Book 2 coming out?

The NGR 2 book has been out for years.

https://palladium-store.com/1001/produc ... x-Two.html

[Eashamahel]

Lets all just be honest with ourselves for a second,

Whether the book was written well or drawn well or what not, it is a RIFTS book, about Robots (and their stats) and OCCs.

These are likely the two most inconsistent, silly, and over-done things in the entire game line. RIFTS pretty much since it's inception has been filled with OCCs that just do the same job as other OCCs, either with some additional bonus to make the original pointless or so close as to be totally unecessary and just add to the bloat of the game (and the books) and Robots with stats that don't make sense, from MDC to gun damage to cost to everything else about them.

To think that Northern Gun, no matter how well done it was, or wasn't in anyone's opinion, was going to solve or be immune to this issue of the product as a whole, was just dreaming.

[Giant2005]

Ok my questions IS there a NGR Book 2 coming out?

Assuming you mean Northern Gun and not NGR, it is already at the printer.

[eliakon]

The comments about the LPO raised a question for me. Just how many OCCs CAN take H2H Commando 'by the book'?

[Tiree]

One thing I will say - NG1 is a better book than the Black Market. I find very little redeeming within the Black Market, and every time I look at it I cringe. It starts off with a crappy cover, and then goes downhill from there.

NG1 is a better book. Do I think the OCC's are worth anything, not really. They only provide flare, and even then very specific. But even then, it's still better than Black Market by far (No new game changing mechanics). The weapons are a rehash of weapons already put out there (from Copy and Paste), to expanding the lines and keep them within balance to each other.

The Solid Oxide Fuel Cell - is actually a very neat addition. Is it really needed, no. But it's a not too powerful alternative. Even though I probably would not use more than one or two Robots within the book for my characters. I would use them as a nice alternative for background Mecha as a GM.

Do I think NG1 is gold - heck no. But it's better than some of the garbage PB has put out over the years... Africa anyone? And unlike some on these boards - I found Wormwood to be... lacking and not my cup of tea either.

[Pepsi Jedi]

The comments about the LPO raised a question for me. Just how many OCCs CAN take H2H Commando 'by the book'?

Not very many: As best I can find going though about 40 books,

TWO other classes get it automatically:
CS Commando (Heh) Via CWC
CS Special Forces Via CWC

There are a hand full that can 'upgrade' for two or three of their other skills.

Crazies can via RUE
Headhunter via RUE
Robot Pilot via RUE
CS Military Specialist via RUE
Gunfighter via New West
Psi-slinger via New West
Wired Gunslinger via New West


None out of Vamp Kingdoms(Rev)
None out of Atlantis
None out of the NGR,
None out of Juicer uprising
None out of CS Navy (Even the navy seal. Weird)
None out of Psyscape
None out of Russia
None out of Free Quebec
None out of Lemuria
None out of Rifts Mercenaries.

So 2 other classes, I could find get it automatically. And 7 more than can upgrade at the costs of other skills. I didn't go through every single book but I did most of the world books and the source books and the merc book etc. I could have missed a couple, that was alot of books.

But yeah. 2 other classes start with it with 7 others that can upgrade, out of 100s of OOCs. So.. not many at all.

[Sureshot]

I do agree with the OP to a certain extent. I found the occs in the book to be very "meh" IMO. Beyond a select few nothing stood out that I would want to play IMO. I also agree that too many of the designs in the book to be too expensive, underpowered and lacking in MDC. I like the book yet line many other rpg books it's not perfect.

[taalismn]

Some of the designs make for good scavenging of systems though; rip 'em out after somebody else has bought them and mount them on your own more effective platform of choice.

[kaid]

I don't know about the rest of you, but I found NG1 to be one of the worst books that has come out yet.

It looks very pretty and has mostly good artwork, but most of the bots were either a let-down or poorly-designed, most of the OCCs are worthless, a lot of stuff is way overpriced, and there's a whole lot of other issues.

Here's just one example: Hovertrain weapon costs

These come in a heavy turret but regardless they are insanely inflated for what you get. Some of your options are:

Light Laser Cannon (3D6 MD - 2000' range) 2 million credits
Medium LC (5D6 MD - 3000' range) 8 million credits
Heavy LC (1D4x10 MD - 4000' range) 15 million credits
Light Ion Cannon (4D6 MD - 1500' range) 6 million credits
Medium IC (6D6 MD - 1800' range) 8 million credits
Heavy IC (1D4x10+6 MD - 2000' range) 12 million credits
Medium Particle Beam (1D4x10+8 - 2000' range) 20 million credits
Heavy PB (1D6x10+10 - 2000' range) 35 million credits

By way of comparison:

NG-SSL20 laser rifle (6D6+6 MD - 2000' range) 60,000 credits
NG-P9 Heavy PB Rifle (1D4x10 MD -1600' range) 45,000 credits
NG-E15 Pulse Plasma rifle (2D4x10 MD -1600' range) 62,000 credits

Why would anybody spend millions when you can get the same thing or almost the same thing for under 100,000?

I know there's a 'relative power level' chart that puts NG well below the CS or Triax, but still most of the new bots are chew toys. I certainly wouldn't want to pilot most of them.

As a GM, there is almost nothing in NG1 that I can include in my campaign. After reading it, I quickly designated it a 'bathroom book'.

Hope the next one is better, but I'm not holding my breath.

The hover train prices are a bit odd mostly because these are designed mostly for big companies/states they are stated to be very expensive and at the moment rare as they are a pretty new development. One thing to note with the weapons it is not just the weapon you are getting the turret/the computer controls for the turret/the nuclear power supply for the turret as well as the weapon. So the prices are a bit high its not like they are simply strapping rifle to a ball joint on a post.

As for durability they are pretty close matches to CS war era robots and while their main guns may be a bit less potent the majority of the new designs have multiple main guns so much less prone to sharp shooters than most other manufacturers equipment. The biggest CS warmachine has around 900 MDC and on the NG side you have the grizzly/viking/blocker all pretty close to that number. The blocker depending on the attacks coming in actually probably works out to be more durable since its shield takes half damage from explosives and negates area effect of missile strikes on it. It has 570 armor but a shield with 300 mdc and if used to block missile strikes the shield is actually providing 450 MDC.

The biggest issue with the NG robots is not so much durability as it is speed. The CS and triax bots in general have faster movement speed than the NG bots.


About half the bots are also not really combat robots they are exploratory vehicles good for backup combat support but are not front line combat machines. These are the bulldog/okemos/behmoth 1 and2/ medic bot 1/2, ogre. The scorpion one is in that list to but that one is a bit more on the front line combat side of the line its much better armed than the other ones.

[kaid]

I don't know about the rest of you, but I found NG1 to be one of the worst books that has come out yet.

It looks very pretty and has mostly good artwork, but most of the bots were either a let-down or poorly-designed, most of the OCCs are worthless, a lot of stuff is way overpriced, and there's a whole lot of other issues.

Here's just one example: Hovertrain weapon costs

These come in a heavy turret but regardless they are insanely inflated for what you get. Some of your options are:

Light Laser Cannon (3D6 MD - 2000' range) 2 million credits
Medium LC (5D6 MD - 3000' range) 8 million credits
Heavy LC (1D4x10 MD - 4000' range) 15 million credits
Light Ion Cannon (4D6 MD - 1500' range) 6 million credits
Medium IC (6D6 MD - 1800' range) 8 million credits
Heavy IC (1D4x10+6 MD - 2000' range) 12 million credits
Medium Particle Beam (1D4x10+8 - 2000' range) 20 million credits
Heavy PB (1D6x10+10 - 2000' range) 35 million credits

By way of comparison:

NG-SSL20 laser rifle (6D6+6 MD - 2000' range) 60,000 credits
NG-P9 Heavy PB Rifle (1D4x10 MD -1600' range) 45,000 credits
NG-E15 Pulse Plasma rifle (2D4x10 MD -1600' range) 62,000 credits

Why would anybody spend millions when you can get the same thing or almost the same thing for under 100,000?

I know there's a 'relative power level' chart that puts NG well below the CS or Triax, but still most of the new bots are chew toys. I certainly wouldn't want to pilot most of them.

As a GM, there is almost nothing in NG1 that I can include in my campaign. After reading it, I quickly designated it a 'bathroom book'.

Hope the next one is better, but I'm not holding my breath.

The O.C.C.s are far from worthless....

I'd have to admit the NG Salse Rep is not my cup of tea but all the other one have a huge amount of skills.(skill classes have a place in this game) The L.P. Officer is basically James bond with Hand to Hand Commando and the backing of one of the top companies in the world. I would almost ban that O.C.C. from being picked because of the potential abuse of power a clever player could throw your way.

"Guys, we need to convince the river bandits they need to leave our village alone and not get killed doing it."

"It's ok I'm Bob the NG LPO I'll just radio them and tell them they have to stop raiding this town completely or I'll put a Withhold Order on their ass.

If that doesn't work, I'll get us some brand new fully equipped NG-8000 Super Maxes (you know the ones with the beehive grenade launchers that can fire a volley of 8 at a time that they can't dodge). Four of those should be able to take our 20 or 30 bandits.

Oh, and IF my company denies me that shipment of 'Bots I'll just radio ANY IMCN merc team who happens to be within range and ORDER them to kill them for us. Yup, I'm cool like that."

Hehe yes the LPO may not be stats wise the nastiest guy around but they are very good special forces type OCC and they have the power to make just about any merc company in north america ask how high if an LPO says jump to them. A GM would have to be really careful of letting an LPO in their campaign at least a north american one. One has to remember NG has a humungus market share in north america and its not just weapons or bots or armor but pretty much all basic consumer products like cloths/soap/shoes/work tools. If you live in north america and not in a CS fortress city chances are if your village/town could not make it themselves its an NG product. People are going to be VERY afraid of doing something to upset somebody who can just black ball them back into the stone ages.

The robot controller OCC is an excellent more combat oriented version of an operator. More focused on breaking stuff than fixing it although they can fix stuff really well. They also can get some great psychic options having basically an operator who can use biomanipulation allows for an excellent support class who can easily cripple non master psychics and take them out of the fight fast.

The NG sales OCC is a good occ for somebody looking for that kind of character. Not a real main combat type person but a fun roleplaying type occ for those who like such things. Given their direct ties to the NG a lot of their more role playing powers/options for acquiring tech and influencing NPC's is potentially almost to potent.

The NG police is probably the best of the police OCC's I have seen good MOS skill packages and good equipment packages to go along with them. If one wants to play a law enforcement of any of the major powers I would probably use the NG police as my template for it.

About the only OCC I don't really care for is the monster hunter it is just a bit boring but by no means bad or ineffective.

[kaid]

I just noticed that the last update had more specifics about what was included as finalized for NG2
10 robot drones and haulers.
30+ NG power armor suits; an expansive range.
30+ suits of M.D.C. body armor.
20+ types of “armored clothing.”
15 vehicles.
14 hovercycles and 8 motorcycles.
9 amphibious vehicles and watercraft.
6 military, armored combat vehicles.
4 aircraft and 4 jet packs.
Miscellaneous combat gear and other equipment.

Wow 30 EBA and 20+ types of armored cloths well for the fashionistas out there it seems like there will be plenty of choices for how you want to sexy up your body armor haha.

Kinda interesting what the 15 vehicles will be given there the other vehicle categories are much more specific in their description.

Curious if the skyking is one of the "aircraft" or the hovercycles.

I am assuming the 6 armored combat vehicles are tank variants.

Should be interesting to see guessing we are looking at 3 weeksish till the softcover version is out so not to much longer now.

[Pepsi Jedi]

If memory serves, I think they did indicate the Sky king and one or two variants would be present.

Vehicles will include ATV/APC types We've seen the art on three or four of those, one if um very big. We've seen some of the clothes in the preview. (For the record, NG has been producing MDC BDU's/clothes since dino swamp. Awesome things, you can even get your merc company's MD BDUs in custom cammo all the way down to the ability to get your unit symbol worked into the tread of your boots. lol)

[kaid]

If memory serves, I think they did indicate the Sky king and one or two variants would be present.

Vehicles will include ATV/APC types We've seen the art on three or four of those, one if um very big. We've seen some of the clothes in the preview. (For the record, NG has been producing MDC BDU's/clothes since dino swamp. Awesome things, you can even get your merc company's MD BDUs in custom cammo all the way down to the ability to get your unit symbol worked into the tread of your boots. lol)

I had just reread the dino swamp and did not realize the sneak peek hunterman line from the NG2 sneak peak is all the same stuff although the ride armor/street wolf armor are new variants. They talk about an operators choice line in NG1 so I am assuming there is probably an operator work outfit version of that stuff too.

[Eashamahel]

Do I think NG1 is gold - heck no. But it's better than some of the garbage PB has put out over the years... Africa anyone? And unlike some on these boards - I found Wormwood to be... lacking and not my cup of tea either.

Africa is a 'character' book, a bad guy book specifically. If it was presented as mini-supplement named 'The Four Horsemen' and book one of the 'Great Menaces' then it would be held up much higher.

Wormwood suffers from being a part of the PB line. It's the concept of that book that is awesome/interesting, the art that draws people in. The mechanics of it all, the numbers and the explanations, that part taken by itself, in my opinion, would make Wormwood the weakest book PB has ever put out since it's just a mess.

[kaid]

I liked the concept of wormwood and if you center a campaign there and never leave it sort of holds together well enough. But with all the mechanics of it it does not play nice with any other setting nothing from wormwood really does well if it leaves that setting and nothing from other settings really does great in wormwood.

I also found it interesting with the humans who were naturally MDC but did not have supernatural strength so were incapable of doing even simple things like cutting their own hair without special magic or resin items.

[Eashamahel]

Oh, the rabit hole of madness from Wormwood goes on nearly forever. Resin weapons doing MD is the equivalent of Xiticix weapons doing MD, but without even the 'weighs more than normal' (incredibly weak) explanation. That being siad lots of other 'OCC's' do well in Wormwood, like Tehno Wizards, most fantasy ones, Shifters, ect, it's the 'Character' part of 'OCC' that doesn't fit.

Regardless, every PB book is going to suffer from the same failings just some to a larger degree and some to a smaller degree. The more a book relies on numbers, the more shortcomings it is going to have. If a book is all about Robots (with their wonky MDC and super-expensive 20x weight rifle damage cannons), MORE rifles in the 2D6-1D6x10/shot range (as they are entering into a system with HUNDREDS of others, making something both unique and USEFUL is pretty much a dream), and MORE 'Man at Arms' OCCs ('this one is JUST like the Bounty Hunter, but gets +2 secondary skills and starts with HtH: Commando!') then it's going to suffer a lot more than a book about something which the system either handles better, hasn't dealt with as much, or isn't as reliant on stats.

Honestly, to judge if a RIFTS book is good or not, I would suggest reading the DESCRIPTIONS of everything and then closing the book. If a description of something is neat, and the description of it's purpose makes sense, and the description of how it does what it does is good, it's likely a good entry. If it's numbers don't match that description, it's not really the fault of THAT book just how the system is.

[Balabanto]

I don't know about the rest of you, but I found NG1 to be one of the worst books that has come out yet.

It looks very pretty and has mostly good artwork, but most of the bots were either a let-down or poorly-designed, most of the OCCs are worthless, a lot of stuff is way overpriced, and there's a whole lot of other issues.

Here's just one example: Hovertrain weapon costs

These come in a heavy turret but regardless they are insanely inflated for what you get. Some of your options are:

Light Laser Cannon (3D6 MD - 2000' range) 2 million credits
Medium LC (5D6 MD - 3000' range) 8 million credits
Heavy LC (1D4x10 MD - 4000' range) 15 million credits
Light Ion Cannon (4D6 MD - 1500' range) 6 million credits
Medium IC (6D6 MD - 1800' range) 8 million credits
Heavy IC (1D4x10+6 MD - 2000' range) 12 million credits
Medium Particle Beam (1D4x10+8 - 2000' range) 20 million credits
Heavy PB (1D6x10+10 - 2000' range) 35 million credits

By way of comparison:

NG-SSL20 laser rifle (6D6+6 MD - 2000' range) 60,000 credits
NG-P9 Heavy PB Rifle (1D4x10 MD -1600' range) 45,000 credits
NG-E15 Pulse Plasma rifle (2D4x10 MD -1600' range) 62,000 credits

Why would anybody spend millions when you can get the same thing or almost the same thing for under 100,000?

I know there's a 'relative power level' chart that puts NG well below the CS or Triax, but still most of the new bots are chew toys. I certainly wouldn't want to pilot most of them.

As a GM, there is almost nothing in NG1 that I can include in my campaign. After reading it, I quickly designated it a 'bathroom book'.

Hope the next one is better, but I'm not holding my breath.

The O.C.C.s are far from worthless....

I'd have to admit the NG Salse Rep is not my cup of tea but all the other one have a huge amount of skills.(skill classes have a place in this game) The L.P. Officer is basically James bond with Hand to Hand Commando and the backing of one of the top companies in the world. I would almost ban that O.C.C. from being picked because of the potential abuse of power a clever player could throw your way.

"Guys, we need to convince the river bandits they need to leave our village alone and not get killed doing it."

"It's ok I'm Bob the NG LPO I'll just radio them and tell them they have to stop raiding this town completely or I'll put a Withhold Order on their ass.

If that doesn't work, I'll get us some brand new fully equipped NG-8000 Super Maxes (you know the ones with the beehive grenade launchers that can fire a volley of 8 at a time that they can't dodge). Four of those should be able to take our 20 or 30 bandits.

Oh, and IF my company denies me that shipment of 'Bots I'll just radio ANY IMCN merc team who happens to be within range and ORDER them to kill them for us. Yup, I'm cool like that."

Heh. This is kind of funny, because the very hyperinflation that regulates the cost is also the game balance factor on the NG Loss Prevention Officer. In order to have loss prevention officers, you have to have loss to prevent.

The problem with being an NG LPO is that in most games, unless you get laid off, you are constantly getting substandard, damaged salvage because these are the people who didn't pay their bills.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Refurbish and resell baby.

[Zer0 Kay]

One word; HYPERINFLATION
...
That is all. Go about your lives now.

Yup and Al Gore's head says it's cuz of Global warming caused by the presence of rifts and the methane they release.

[kaid]

I just noticed that the last update had more specifics about what was included as finalized for NG2
10 robot drones and haulers.
30+ NG power armor suits; an expansive range.
30+ suits of M.D.C. body armor.
20+ types of “armored clothing.”
15 vehicles.
14 hovercycles and 8 motorcycles.
9 amphibious vehicles and watercraft.
6 military, armored combat vehicles.
4 aircraft and 4 jet packs.
Miscellaneous combat gear and other equipment.

Wow 30 EBA and 20+ types of armored cloths well for the fashionistas out there it seems like there will be plenty of choices for how you want to sexy up your body armor haha.

Kinda interesting what the 15 vehicles will be given there the other vehicle categories are much more specific in their description.

Curious if the skyking is one of the "aircraft" or the hovercycles.

I am assuming the 6 armored combat vehicles are tank variants.

Should be interesting to see guessing we are looking at 3 weeksish till the softcover version is out so not to much longer now.

In looking at the index from the latest sneak peek one thing I found interesting is 2/3 or even a bit more of the EBA were preexisting designs. I forgot NG had that many different types of body armor probably cause they were spread across so many books.

[kaid]

I don't know about the rest of you, but I found NG1 to be one of the worst books that has come out yet.

It looks very pretty and has mostly good artwork, but most of the bots were either a let-down or poorly-designed, most of the OCCs are worthless, a lot of stuff is way overpriced, and there's a whole lot of other issues.

Here's just one example: Hovertrain weapon costs

These come in a heavy turret but regardless they are insanely inflated for what you get. Some of your options are:

Light Laser Cannon (3D6 MD - 2000' range) 2 million credits
Medium LC (5D6 MD - 3000' range) 8 million credits
Heavy LC (1D4x10 MD - 4000' range) 15 million credits
Light Ion Cannon (4D6 MD - 1500' range) 6 million credits
Medium IC (6D6 MD - 1800' range) 8 million credits
Heavy IC (1D4x10+6 MD - 2000' range) 12 million credits
Medium Particle Beam (1D4x10+8 - 2000' range) 20 million credits
Heavy PB (1D6x10+10 - 2000' range) 35 million credits

By way of comparison:

NG-SSL20 laser rifle (6D6+6 MD - 2000' range) 60,000 credits
NG-P9 Heavy PB Rifle (1D4x10 MD -1600' range) 45,000 credits
NG-E15 Pulse Plasma rifle (2D4x10 MD -1600' range) 62,000 credits

Why would anybody spend millions when you can get the same thing or almost the same thing for under 100,000?

I know there's a 'relative power level' chart that puts NG well below the CS or Triax, but still most of the new bots are chew toys. I certainly wouldn't want to pilot most of them.

As a GM, there is almost nothing in NG1 that I can include in my campaign. After reading it, I quickly designated it a 'bathroom book'.

Hope the next one is better, but I'm not holding my breath.

The O.C.C.s are far from worthless....

I'd have to admit the NG Salse Rep is not my cup of tea but all the other one have a huge amount of skills.(skill classes have a place in this game) The L.P. Officer is basically James bond with Hand to Hand Commando and the backing of one of the top companies in the world. I would almost ban that O.C.C. from being picked because of the potential abuse of power a clever player could throw your way.

"Guys, we need to convince the river bandits they need to leave our village alone and not get killed doing it."

"It's ok I'm Bob the NG LPO I'll just radio them and tell them they have to stop raiding this town completely or I'll put a Withhold Order on their ass.

If that doesn't work, I'll get us some brand new fully equipped NG-8000 Super Maxes (you know the ones with the beehive grenade launchers that can fire a volley of 8 at a time that they can't dodge). Four of those should be able to take our 20 or 30 bandits.

Oh, and IF my company denies me that shipment of 'Bots I'll just radio ANY IMCN merc team who happens to be within range and ORDER them to kill them for us. Yup, I'm cool like that."

Heh. This is kind of funny, because the very hyperinflation that regulates the cost is also the game balance factor on the NG Loss Prevention Officer. In order to have loss prevention officers, you have to have loss to prevent.

The problem with being an NG LPO is that in most games, unless you get laid off, you are constantly getting substandard, damaged salvage because these are the people who didn't pay their bills.

Also note that LPO are more like secret agent/james bond sorts and less repo guys. They are not going out to reclaim a lost vehicle here or there. They are the guys who ferret out secrets from competitors, plots against the NG, large scale theft or attacks on NG personal and property. Any actual returned product is likely a happy bonus for what they are really sent out to do. These guys are also the enforcers of the NG if a merc company is ripping off or screwing with the NG these guys are the ones to inform them that such behavior is not a really good long term plan and if needed they can blackball them which would cripple most merc organizations/towns.

[kaid]

Nightfactory wrote:

07. The new Megabot is worse than the original Multibot

Weapons systems are almost exactly the same, though the Megabot has additional short-range missles and the Tri-Barrel cannon.

Original: 290 MDC without flyer. Megabot: 160 MDC without flyer.
Original flyer: 240mph @ 10,000 feet. Megabot flyer: 250mph @ 500 feet.

Also, as pointed out in the text, the Megabot's main gun can't be used most of the time if connected, and the front of the megabot
gives other bots something to grab onto.

08. Blocker Combat Robot's shield

How exactly does this work in game terms? Are we to believe that this clunky bot is fast enought parry mini-missiles?

The new mega bot is actually better in many ways then the original. One thing to note is the speeder is the main body of both designs so the MDC you are listing only applies to directed attacks on the super structure or if the speeder is detached. The main body of the new speeder is more heavily armored than the previous design although both are not super heavily armored. In speeder mode the new ones combat speeder is much better armed with a better main cannon and good sized payload of mini missiles.

It is still an odd duck to be sure because when mated with the super structure its best use is back line artillery bot. It is the best long range attack mech the northern gun has and the CS as well for that matter since one odd omission in the CSW is of any CS war robot/power armor that packs much or any medium range missiles. The funny thing is I see groups more interested in the speeder itself more so than the whole bot combo. The speeder is a well armored well armed fast scout vehicle.

As for the blocker it is a bit of a question in game terms because palladium handles shields oddly. But it is not hard to imagine blocking missiles with it as the shield is 24 feet tall and I think 12 feet wide. Simply holding it in front of itself using that cleverly lined up notch at the top to stick its head gun over and walking forward towards the launcher should nearly guarantee every attack from the front hits the shield. If somebody goes strict rules as written it could be odd and depends a bit on the GM rules. There is an option for all robots to "sacrifice their arms" to absorb missile strikes. If you can do that it is hard to imagine it would be harder to block the same strike with a 24 foot tall shield than it is with their much smaller arms. Also it could easily be seen that a shield that big which is clearly designed to be used in that way would act as full cover requiring aimed shots to actually hit anything else but the shield from the front.


Edit correction

I double checked at home and megabot/multibot are the strange

In the original multibot the main body is the armature at 290 MDC.
On the new mega bot the main body is the combat racer which has 375MDC

So the older one uses the armature as the main body and on the new one it switches to the combat racer with the armature only taking damage when directly targeted so easy to see the confusion on this one.

[Premier]

WOW.

I had no idea this discussion was transpiring. I would like to say that Pepsi Jedi and Kaid have pointed out some very strong and validated responses regarding the issues being expressed. So my answers are only going to expound upon some of the already given replies. Hopefully, as one of the Illustrators on the interior and as the cover Artist, as well as one of the concept developers for this publication, I can provide some clarity as to some of the art concerns or issues.
Simply reviewing the forums you will find threads and pos to support the positive reviews of NG1 and how some Gamers enjoy the Robot Vehicles and view them more than just machines of warfare, but are actually quite useful for exploration and more comprehensive role playing practices.

So let’s begin:

I don't know about the rest of you, but I found NG1 to be one of the worst books that has come out yet.

This is your entitled opinion, however, the general census online, at conventions and continued sales of NG1 support a more positive and well-appreciated review for this sourcebook.

It looks very pretty and has mostly good artwork, but most of the bots were either a let-down or poorly-designed, most of the OCCs are worthless, a lot of stuff is way overpriced, and there's a whole lot of other issues.

The Robots are far from being poorly designed as I purposely went for a more hardware and functional development in illustrating them. Many of them I take it to your chagrin, that numerous NG robots have created many fans who even have often dubbed one of the robots one of the best Robot vehicles in RIFTS, that being the “Gunwolf”.

My personal approach for illustrating some of these robots was the sole philosophy of “function begets form” as my core objective. This meant devising structures and spacing, frame structure, hard point designations, joint maneuverability, overall mobility and fulfillment of what they were meant and designed to perform in the field. Now when I say “field” I am envisioning NG robots with a more durable and reliant functionality than those even of the CS, Triax, the Blackmarket and Wilks, because unlike the CS or Triax who support their militia with automatic support and repairing or replacing damaged components and hardware to preserve it’s militia’s performance, NG is selling to an array of independents, most of whom don’t have the luxury of a full military backing and support. So the NG hardware is required to be more rugged and reliable upon par, because who knows how long you might be in the field before requiring a crucial repair. If you don’t have the necessary skills, parts or availability of a skilled and knowledgeable Operator, then you are more likely to be inefficient with that damaged gear. So, if it equates to shaving off a little in the damage delivery category to have more reliability in the unmerciful “field”, which one do you seriously think most realistic operatives are going to pick up upon par?

It’s not just about devising the most powerful weapon that can be put into a bundled package and slapped into a pretty design, manufacturing it and selling it like hot cakes. Not when your the largest North American gear & hardware distributor and your reputation is on the line. Not when your outmatched by a major militia powerhouse like the Coalition Sates, that you rely on for major support and protection and that you aren’t seeking to usurp any time soon. Not when your success, stability and livelihood is based on reputation to sustain your profitable capitalism and manufacturing. If there is no reliability or major support to keep the gear operational or replaced (unlike CS & Triax militia support), then NG must excel in this key and crucial area. This factor is crucial to Greeners and the most seasoned players. This issue was emphasized throughout the book as one of NG’s flagship selling points. It literally begins pointing this element out in the first page, first paragraph of the book

(NG1 page

“On all of Rifts Earth, there is one company that provides equipment for more mercenaries, adventurers and independent soldiers than any other: Northern Gun. While Triax may enjoy a virtual monopoly in Europe, and there are state armies and alien corporations with more advanced technology, it is the infamous, and many would say, heroic Northern Gun that dominates the free market in North America. They produce everything from boots and electric lanterns to combat robots and long range missiles. Customers with distinguished tastes have learned to associate the Northern Gun “brand name” with sturdy, reliable equipment that can take a beating.”

***************************************************************************************

I know there's a 'relative power level' chart that puts NG well below the CS or Triax, but still most of the new bots are chew toys. I certainly wouldn't want to pilot most of them.

I respectfully disagree that most of the new line of NG robots are “chew toys.” If that's the case in your campaign, then who is doing the chewing and how often are they encountered?

Your personal choice of not wanting to pilot most of them is your personal choice, as is the many posters and gamers that I have met at conventions who have expressed and eager zeal to pilot hem as soon as they can.

As a GM, there is almost nothing in NG1 that I can include in my campaign. After reading it, I quickly designated it a 'bathroom book'.

WOW, that could be a concerning issue for some Players when NG is stated as being the one company that provides equipment for more mercenaries, adventurers and independent soldiers than any other. So what are your NPCs and opposition being equipped with upon par in a balanced campaign scenario?

I understand entertaining rewards of the ”power gamer” style, but the entertainment is established with a rollercoaster structure, not a constant hill that can make players callused and desensitized, which is what I am suspecting you are exhibiting within your posts.

Nobody is going to play a LPO. But if anybody did play an LPO, it would only be playable in a NG-based setting. What good is an LPO going to be in Wormwood, Phase World, South America, Japan, Splynn, etc? None.

Playing a LPO can be conducted well out of a NG-based setting. There aren’t such boundaries in a true role playing setting. I don’t recall any espionage agent story such as the Ian Fleming's James Bond stories or films where 007 was only bound to Britain, quite the opposite. I don’t envision how an espionage and Special Forces character assigned to investigate alien enterprises and rival mercenary companies that is considered an elite special force agent is remotely going to be bound to NG-based boundaries. Delta force, Seals Teams, etc., are often deployed off of American soil into deep excursions elsewhere. Just imagining the espionage of an LPO special forces agent investigating and conducting espionage against alien corporations is going to expose such an agent to all sorts of missions that surpass NG-based boundaries. Under the correct deep-cover guise or mission, such an agent may very well be using or have a good idea of contending with alien technology (like Naruni) if he is in deep enough.

Not only that, but it is more likely that an LPO officer is going to have all sorts of secret intel and access to new and secret prototype weapons, devices, PAs and those of enemy designs, none of which are availed to the NG open consumer market. Such devises and secret ops equipment might be proprietary for LPO special agent ops. If your restricting the LPO to “NG-based” locations, then you are constricting it on your own personal ideology and interpretations, not that of an open minded GM who could make good use of this OCC for a player or an NPC to traverse such areas as South America, Japan, Splynn, Phasewolrd, etc. These are the exact areas such an agent would need to obtain intel on, especially if there is some rising threat or secret project to sabotage or thwart or some innovative benefit that could be used or obtained/stolen to add to an NG product. Or a rival espionage agent that has fled to one of these areas with secret NG designs. That’s where the fun and challenges begin, not where it is ceased.

I don’t even know how you interpreted the write-up of the LPO as being limited to an NG based gaming experience when it clearly states:
(NG1 pg 78) –

While local law enforcement is handled by Ishpeming and city governments, and often conducted by professional lawmen and hired mercenaries, the corporate side of Northern Gun maintains the Loss Prevention Office (LPO) as its own elite, private army. It is the LPO who conduct tactical strikes and intelligence gathering against Naruni Enterprises, and continue to investigate other alien competitors, as well as engage mercenaries and lead most military combat operations for the Northern Gun corporation. Loss prevention Officers are always used for espionage operations and missions deemed too sensitive, important or secretive to be entrusted o mercenaries or local law enforcement. For this reason, the LPO is also known as the Northern Gun Special Forces by outsiders.

As an old-head GM, I would easily devise advanced stealth NG PAs for LPO Special forces agents when they needed to conduct deep excursion ops into South America, Japan, Triax, Phaseworld, etc., with the aesthetics based off of the consumer released NG products, just in case they were spotted (they would be potentially underestimated or marketing he NG brand), but with far more advanced upgrades under the hood that are not availed to the open market. We are talking elite Special Forces for goodness sake by a major arms & power armor provider to contend with aliens weapons developer/dealers and rival mercenary companies. So many goodies.

[Premier]

Most of the bots have lousy MDC, underpowered weapons, and bad design. Not just from a Stat standpoint, but also from a playability standpoint (I will give examples farther down). Most Black Market bots are better than NG, though the BM has arguably a lot less finances and production ability than NG. That doesn't make any sense.

The MDC distribution and damage delivery capability comparisons between Robot vehicles and Power armors, or Full conversion cyborgs for that matter has been comprehensively discussed and addressed to the point of exhaustion. This is not solely a NG thing, its a RIFTS thing and it is “ideally” done to preserve overall game balance, entertainment and play-ability. What fun would it be to roll up a character, spending all the time and creativity to do so, only to come across a robot vehicle that blows that same character away in one melee round action/shot; simply to preserve proportionate power scale, armor protection and damage delivery capacity?

There are weapon designs out now that are used by infantry that can nearly equate to the damage caliber of tanks. FIST is a good example of this with their anti tank weapons, let alone if they were adorned in power armored or full conversion cyborg infantry.

So seeing the damage capacity so closely related is not as chronic an issue for some Gamers as it is for others. I have seen wonderful formulas devised by some posters to help offset the common complaint issues as they saw fit.

How these issues play out in your campaigns is solely up to you as the GM and the chance of the dice rolls.

BTW, you say most Black Market bots are better than NG, though they have less finances and production ability than NG, but it appears you have neglected to read that NG is also secretly part of the Black Market collaboration (also on page 8 of NG1). It is quite feasible that what NG does under its own brand name is strategically conducted to appease the CS to avoid being viewed as a potential rival or threat if they produced same tier level productions as the CS. However working within the shadowy unbridled Black Market within certain collaborations, dispels NG’s restriction and assigns the blame to other more prominent identities such as Bandito Arms.

Not true. For example, in Rifts Mercenaries, Crow's Commandos (p.61) have 8 Triax Ulti-Max. Braddock's Bad Boys have 10 UAR-1 Enforcers, 8 Triax X-500 Foragers, 10 Triax X-10 Predators, and 8 Triax Ultimax. Larsen's Brigade has 1 Death Head Transport (!), 22 CS Sky Cycles, 36 CS Mark-5 APCs, 40 CS SAMAS, 30 Triax X-10s, 30 Triax X-100s, 20 Triax X-500s, 16 CS UAR-1s, and 16 CS Spider walkers. If these groups can go around with such a mix of CS & Triax gear, so can anybody else.

Just how many “independent of the CS” Mercenary companies do you think really exist? Crows Commandos is not the norm for Mercenary companies as far as equipment and gear goes, as it is stated in NG1 Pg 8:

"On all of Rifts Earth, there is one company that provides equipment for more mercenaries, adventurers and independent soldiers than any other: Northern Gun.”

Upon Par, I personally don’t envision the CS allowing just anyone to come and go into their treasure trove of high tech militarized weapons, vehicles, drones, power armors and robots and then depart without serving some sort of devoted cause and benefits for the CS. If that were the case then everyone would do it. The CS has hired a number of mercenary groups, adventurers and opportunists to “work for” the CS, (i.e.: spies, smugglers, saboteurs, assassins, scouts and special forces, but most find themselves as front line infantry to soften up the enemy before CS troops are sent in. That’s far from being independent and cherry picking whatever hardware goodies they produce.

Typically, if you have their CS gear on you are still working for the CS in some form or capacity. Even, if you aren’t, many will presume you are. Its part of the reputation that isn't going anywhere soon.

Salvaging and getting damaged parts replaced or finding someone who knows how to repair CS technology, especially new releases is not going to be that easy either. The further you branch out from the CS, I would imagine the more difficult it would be to find such skills and knowledge. The CS may be too busy to go after every violator, but that doesn’t mean they don’t sub-contract such hits or executions as penalties or try and recover any stolen property of theirs. Some companies like the Crows, may simply have flown under the radar long enough to have eventually accumulated significant hardware numbers of the CS. This also doesn’t mean that others who see infantry equipped or adorned with CS hardware won’t be suspicious to say the least or opportunistically seek to smite anything resembling the tyranny of CS infantry. Especially, if we are talking in the “field” where your reputation might precede you. D-Bees, Magic practitioners, users of alien technology and the like, aren’t necessarily going to smile at you when they see you adorning the infamous persecutors armor or robots now are they?

So why bother buying any NG stuff then when you can get better bots and vehicles at a much lower cost from someone else?

Already addressed above regarding the signature factor of NG’s reliability, availability, global neutral stance reputation and popularity. In the end it comes down to personal choice rather than just statistic damage and MDC comparisons.

The whole linchpin of your argument is that the "CS will get ya", but if that's true then how have all these other armament companies stayed in business all these years? Obviously the CS is not a deterent toward buying other stuff. Also, the CS is not everywhere. I don't know where your games take place, but mine are all over the world (Rifts Earth) and in many dimensions.
If my PCs are exploring the Amazon river area, the last thing they're going to be worried about is the CS showing and nailing them for using Naruni or Kittani weapons.

Well, it’s not necessarily so far-fetched as your trying to pitch in your retort. The CS are quite clear on how they feel towards anyone using illegal alien technology or even consulting and having dealings with them. Sure you may be in South America blowing away Pincer Warriors with Kittani technology or using some Naruni robot or PA to combat some Ellal or other creatures, or even consorting with D-Bees. However, all it takes is recorded footage from someone elses’s PA vid cam to pop up as blackmail and that recorded character who returns to North Amercia will find themselves doing a great deal just for that extortion issue to be resolved. It is quite clear what the punishments are for such actions.

So how common would it really be to select your PA or robot or other weapons and gear that you heavily rely on to survive and to have that arms provider also be the very same manufacturer that will literally give you the death penalty for merely consorting with a supernatural creature or D-Bee. Even rescuing or aiding one is severely persecuted. Now with all the vast array of supernatural beings and D-Bees (including those that you might be saved by or work with) in the field, is that really the chance you are going to take and risk putting your life on the line, knowing and feeling that Big Brother CS could get word of your actions? That’s a HUGE psychological shackle and burden that I know I wouldn’t want to shoulder. Even if they didn’t kill you and decided to just abolish you or put you into reindoctrination program or prison or prison work camp, its a heavy consequence for such an inevitable encounter.

Give me the liberty and reliability any day.

[Premier]

Lets move on to the personal design issues that you have expressed:

1. The Behemoth Super Explorer.
“Over detailed”, hmmm.. .. for such a large hardware robot vehicle mobile command base that is supposed to have functional and a hardware aesthetic, I was trying to accomplish this look for NG. Having the details and cut lines I thought fit the bill for such a massive construct. Would one say the Millennium Falcon, or Star Destroyer or the SDF-1 were also "over detailed" designs, I doubt it. IMO, they are incredible,inspirational designs and classics.

Second, nobody will ever be able to afford it at 142,000,000 credits.

You say nobody will be able to afford it, but this is where I think your missing the deeper aspects of role-playing to afford one. For example this poster, Akashic Soldier, gave a good method on how they exactly planned on affording one and why they needed one in this thread post-/url].

It took Gruz (my player character) about six months to get together enough to buy a modified Behemoth Ex for our players to live in when we adventure but it will certainly go on my list of things to buy. What is the price tag on this thing just out of curiosity?

Gruz bought a Hercules airliner, modified it for transporting the NG-EX, and then had it drop it (and us) off in England in search of the secret history of our amnesian Cyber Knight. So it will probably be about two or three months "real life time" before the ole Treasure Troll from the New West can get enough money to pick one up but with how beautiful the art is, I pretty much have too.

What is the crew and cargo space like?

As the logistics guy, this is the sort of stuff that I've always got to give a lot of thought too. When you are actually role-playing it a lot goes into "planning an adventure/expedition" and having a big robot that can serve as a main base is invaluable. It means, you can just set it down, set up some flood lights and then surround it in a vibro-wire perimeter. Which is WAY safer than being stuck sleeping in tents and having to rotate watches. Its WAY cheaper, safer, and easier to just have a "camp staff" but... that means you need something like one of these big robots to transport your crew.

Then someone to fix it if it gets damaged, and enough cargo space to transport the crate(s) with all of the replacement M.D.C. materials you need for repairs, then...

Ah, you get the idea.

The Behemoth is a godsend and I was super excited seeing the new art, and I am super excited hearing there is a Super NG-EX. That should be awesome.”

Premier wrote:

AH…yeah it can fetch a hefty price tag, (142 million credits), no black market units as it is a very new item. With everybody possibly able to utilize its numerous benefits and luxuries, Gruz should certainly begin the party contribution/donation pot to obtain one.

Yeah, so it seems. As a general rule I split the party "loot" up between everyone equally and I use Gruz's business (Y.M.I.R.) to pay the other players a regular monthly salary, inject money into Testament Colorado (since that is home base) and make any big purchases using the profit. I am currently only operating one compound and it is working as a machine repair shop that does no question ask repairs on M.D.C. armors and vehicles in the New West and it is turning a tidy profit.

Yearly Costs (104 P.A.): 178,000,000 credits.
Yearly Revenue (104 P.A.): 506,000,000 credits.

Even so, buying one of these babies is going to be a BIG purchase. Still, totally worth it by the looks of it. I just have to pace myself and take one step at a time. It mightbe smarter for me to spend my money expanding and relying on the EX for now and funneling 25% of the monthly profits into a savings account. I'll have to give it some thought.

Moving to the last Behemoth point:

Third, nobody would buy one anyways (in game play) because it's fairly useless: it's a huge, slow target with minimal weapons and most actual players and GMs concentrate on combat when it comes to bots, not going around exploring in a science lab.

Third, You say that nobody will buy one because YOU feel its useless, but the various mobile command options and benefits suggests otherwise. Akashic Soldier explained true campaign needs for this unit, even describing it as “invaluable”. It was not meant to be a combat robot, though it can be upgraded to a weapons platform should a merc company choose to do so, so why try to keep putting it into the combat only category. It’s simply not the point of such a mobile command unit. Not to mention that other posters have already validated their support for such a unit. So your “nobody” implication is not valid, just your personal choice.

02. Gunner in unprotected mount on outside of bot (Bigfoot, Bulldog, Okemos). Dumbest idea ever. What a great way to get targeted by snipers, hit by mini-missile explosions, and to leave yourself undefended if someone boards the bot. If I was fighting an Okemos, the first thing I'd do is jump on the roof and stick a vibroblade in the gunner; he can't dodge. Instead of this, why not just have a fully-enclosed turret?

I think this was well addressed by Pepsi-Jedi already. You say the dumbest idea ever, but this configuration is still used by modern day [url=http://www.2ndmardiv.marines.mil/News/NewsArticleDisplay/tabid/2643/Article/40417/caats-on-the-hunt-for-fallujah-terrorists.aspx]warfare vehicles.

We'll do all-day long patrols starting out in the morning to hit up sectors all around Northern Fallujah," he said. "We look for people emplacing IEDs (improvised explosive devices) on the road or watching our convoys and acting suspicious. As "Bronco” rolls through the city, some of the team's Marines often dismount their trucks to walk alongside the vehicles. The Marines use their time pounding the ground to interact with the community and hand out goodies to the kids.

Even after sunset, the Marines remain vigilant and continue riding through the city streets. They know terrorists often use the cover of darkness and nighttime's cooler temperatures to move about. The battle to remain awake and alert begins for gunners like Montgomery, who have endured the blistering summer sunlight since the morning hours.

"Even though it's been pretty slow around here lately, you still have to deal with the heat, and that takes a big toll on you," Montgomery stated.

Nevertheless, the Marines realize the importance of their patrolling missions. First CAAT has already been hit by roadside bombs several times since their arrival here, and have had one member of their unit killed in action in one blast this past April.

Lately, insurgents' use of vehicle-borne IEDs have also kept the gunners on their toes, as they know they are the first to see and respond to the potential threat a vehicle following or cutting into their convoy could pose. Marines here use signs, colored flags, and even stun grenades to warn local drivers to keep their distance from military convoys for everyone's safety. Gunners must be able to differentiate an inattentive driver from a potential VBIED.

"What goes on in the truck revolves around the gunner, in a way. We're the first ones to respond to contact because everyone else still has to wait for the vehicle to stop to be able to get out," Montgomery said.

The safety of their six-vehicle convoy and choosing whether or not to shoot at tailing vehicles rests on gunners like him, but Montgomery remains humble and dutiful. He is simply one player serving as part of a cohesive team, according to Montgomery.

"The whole platoon has to click in order for the missions to be successful, and I think we've done a pretty good job of it so far," he added. "I'll feel satisfied when we leave here, knowing that we did our part to make Fallujah a safer place."

03. Glass pilot compartment (Beachmaster, Behemoth, Bulldog, Gunwolf, Megabot, Ogre, Okemos, Skorpion, Thundercaster) Absolutely nothing dangerous about this.

Glass compartments. You say that as if glass nowadays can't or in the future can not be functionally protective against high velocity projectiles and other high stress loads of extreme force. There is Bullet proof glass, Space Shuttle window panels and alloy acrylic glass used to house large tons of water for marine animals to dwell in, etc., all of which utilize such MDC glass types. Better yet, I’ll share a few of my own references that I used to inspire and support the designs:

A. glass that is tougher and stronger than metal

“Materials scientists in California have made a special metallic glass with a strength and toughness greater than any known material, using a recipe that could yield a new method for materials fabrication. The glass, a microalloy made of palladium, has a chemical structure that counteracts the inherent brittleness of glass but maintains its strength. It's not very dense and it is more lightweight than steel, with comparable heft to an aluminum or titanium alloy.
"For a bridge, a ship, a spacecraft, for engine material, you would like to combine strength and toughness. This does provide a means of doing that in quite frankly the most unlikely of all materials, a glass," Ritchie said. The new glass is described in this week's issue of Nature Materia.”

B. Level 10 Glass to withstand .50 caliber shots

Dig deep into the UL standards and you’ll find that there is an established benchmark for stopping the .50 caliber military round: Level 10. Jim has never heard of a commercial Level 10 system: there is no demand for it in the consumer market, because .50 caliber rifles are so very scarce. Such a rifle costs $12,000 and fires rounds that cost $2 to $5 a piece. The vast bulk of consumer .50 cal rifles are in the collections of extremely wealthy gun enthusiasts; according to the US General Accounting Office’s best estimate as of 2001, only a few thousand .50 cal rifles are floating around the United States.
While these rifles are rare in civilian life, every branch of the US armed services–and most military forces worldwide–use .50 cals. What would it take to stop that bullet? According to Jim, you’re looking at an “awful thick, awful big, and awful heavy” hunk of bullet resistant glass. If he were tasked with designing such a system, he’d begin with three inches or more of glass-clad polycarbonate, which would weigh more than 30 pounds per square foot.

So glass alloys, especially those devised by the advanced technology of the NG R& D department aren’t some flimsy glass concepts. Your last statement indicating:

“Absolutely nothing dangerous about this.”

… reveals how your initially thinking and viewing the RPG subjects. Why does your protection and increased ability to see and navigate, also have to be “dangerous”? There is no correlation between the two that makes sense to me.

04. MMB-01 "Big Papa" and MMB-02 "Junior". Nobody will ever pilot either of these bots in an actual game.

Ah… now your speaking for the masses. “Nobody” is a hefty word to fling around and I wouldn’t be so quick to jump to such conclusions. NG2 will support my comment with the White Knight PA. Everything with RPGs in RIFTS is not built and revolves around point systemic conflicts and killing everything combat. Please also remember that just because a player might not purchase a MMB, doesn’t mean that NPCs won’t or that the Players might not need such assistance from a MMB. Medics in the field come in many shapes and sizes, but they are a welcomed help, especially when it comes to life and death matters. What good is another super killer bot and ace pilot going to do for a comrade pilot who is extremely low on hit points because he just got his arse handed to him and if he doesn’t get medical attention quick, it’s time to roll up another character and all those hard earned accomplishments are gone down the drain, because the gaming platoon is filled with super killers but no one to restore them?

I would hope that a GM would see the uses of such helpful assistance for Players and not prejudge such medical aid in the field as wimpy objects that no one is going to use.

[Premier]

05. Extremely low MDC in some bots, Bigfoot (450), Bruiser (420), Gunbot (390). A full-conversion borg with heavy body armor is tougher than any of these. Also, ironically, the Bulldog is an explorer, but it has more MDC than the Gunwolf which is a combat bot.

OK, this where I believe your logic in comparing is flawed and messing up your argument, BIG TIME!

A. Do you know how durable and sturdy a modern day bulldozer or loader is compared to some military vehicles? It doesn’t mean that the military vehicle is not effective or is weaker or less deadly simply because it is not as durable as a bulldozer. It only means that they each fulfill their own niches and have certain inherited benefits and downsides. Just because a vehicle is military doesn’t mean it will automatically have the best in everything over all civilian vehicle constructs, especially if they are not competing in the same arena of functions.

B. Your comparing the MDC of the Bulldog because it’s an “explorer” styled robot to that of the “combat robot” Gunwolf MDC, but have you compared the combative practicality of the MDC distribution between the two, which validates their MDC validity?

The legs on the Bulldog for example are each 280 MDC. This is to protect a squat, but powerfully built robot that is designed for exploration, salvage and heavy equipment usage over all sorts of terrains and conditions. However the Gunwolf’s two arms, have 200 MDC on each shoulder plating alone, plus an additional 170 for each arm, plus an additional 100 for the hands if you include them. That’s a total of 470 MDC for each of the Gunwolf’s upper limbs. These are the areas that will be more involved in direct combat so it has them highly protected. The legs on the Bulldog have heavy armored treads mounted on to them thus the Bulldog’s legs are 280 MDC each. The Gunwolf’s legs are 220 MDC each to allot for it to have more agility and maneuverability as a bipedal design, but it is still well armored, only a difference of 60 MDC per leg between the two. The main body MDC difference between the Bulldog (500) and Gunwolf (480) is only 20 MDC difference. So there is nothing ironic about these two and the MDC is well distributed to serve what each is designed to do and perform.

BTW, For the record the Gunwolf has a total of 3065 MDC head-to-toe and the Bulldog has 2972 MDC total. So you are incorrect in the MDC total comparison, unless you are referring to the mere 20 MDC main body difference. However, “if” your trying to sustain your issue by comparing the explorer versus the combat robot MDC, then the stats are still validated by where the MDC is appropriately distributed. Your approach on quickly comparing MDC main bodies and damage delivery capability, I feel is potentially affecting some of your gaming choices and inevitably experiences.

06. Illustration issues As shown on the Grizzly, the "Armor Buster" laser cannon wouldn't be able to raise itself to a level firing position because the left forearm weapon would block it.

Um wrong, the left arm just needs to rotate from the elbow joint, 90 degrees inward or upward and the Armor Buster has a full range clearance to lift up and fire. Or it can rotate backwards if need be to lock into a forward facing firing position should the front clearance be negated. It has a 360 degree adjacent rotation from the side housing. This is not to mention that if one wanted they could simply extend the hydraulic pylon supports outward and the clearance is there. 3 Easy fixes!

The hovertrain only has one laser cannon on the right side? What if someone attacks them from the front on the left side? Note, if you look careful at the illustration, you can see the tip of a 2nd laser cannon pointing on the right side, but the illustrator and the description writer apparently didn't communicate.

You just fixed this over-site issue by adding the second Fwd Mounted Laser Turret as indicated in the illustration. Pepsi Jedi also answered this with the number of escorts that help protect and support these expensive units. However if you couldn’t nail a target from the 120 degree front arc, then one can simply allot for the defenses of one of the box cars or on board Robot Vehicles to also handle the matter before it gets too close. If something gets passed these heavy weapon batteries then it’s a game of PA escort assault, if they haven’t already engaged. The mere scale, speed and propulsion fans that can cause beings up to 11 feet to be blown back 1D4X10 feet is also no joke.

07. The new Megabot is worse than the original Multibot

Weapons systems are almost exactly the same, though the Megabot has additional short-range missles and the Tri-Barrel cannon. Original: 290 MDC without flyer. Megabot: 160 MDC without flyer. Original flyer: 240mph @ 10,000 feet. Megabot flyer: 250mph @ 500 feet.

This was addressed already, but I will expound on the matter. I think you are doing the exact same thing you did with the Bulldog to Gunwolf comparison, by focusing solely on main body MDC and neglecting to compare the important issue of appropriate MDC distribution. The Megabot has a lower docking port frame MDC (160 < 290 Multibot dock) because the Megabot’s Combat Racer takes up more space and is far more heavily armored (375 MDC) than its predecessor (200 MDC). So when docked the Megabot is total of 575 MDC for the main body of the robot versus 490 MDC of the Multibot. If they had to engage racer for racer, the Megabot comes out on top in MDC 375>200, applying your ideology method. It is more heavily armed and has a higher MDC. The only attribute that the original racer has over the Megabots’ racer is the altitude ceiling. So the Megabot is not “worse” than the Mulibot, by far the opposite.

Also, as pointed out in the text, the Megabot's main gun can't be used most of the time if connected, and the front of the megabit gives other bots something to grab onto.

As to grabbing onto a Megabot, what robot vehicle doesn’t have this issue? The question is, what is the Megabot with a PS of 40 doing when it is being grabbed? It’s not just going to sit idle.

08. Blocker Combat Robot's shield
How exactly does this work in game terms? Are we to believe that this clunky bot is fast enought parry mini-missiles?

It’s a huge mech body shield, so how fast does it have to be? It clearly indicates how to use this robot and is cavalier fundamentals and tactics.

09. Most Bot Weapons Range Tops Out at 1600 feet, Why?

Already addressed by Pepsi Jedi.

10. Cover illustration discrepancy, Why is there a Ogre exploration bot fighting a dragon? Bad choice for the cover.

The cover is explained on page 2 of NG1. Its the aftermath. The merc company didn’t deploy an Ogre to come and fight a dragon. That Ogre was on routine salvage/exploration and was attacked, thus why it is the only robot burning. It radioed for help and when help arrived the dragon was brought down by the Big Foot, Wolverine and Blue Boy PA. One of the pilots of the burning Ogre can be seen in the background being carried by another PA. It’s just that simple

Players tend to look at the stats, and that's my concern with NG1. I can't imagine anybody actually wanting to buy a NG bot or weapon because they're simply too wimpy.

Again this is your opinion which you are entitled to, but it has also been respectfully refuted and disproven. Yes players review stats, but not just solely stats. Here are also players who enjoy a different taste of role playing besides a power gaming kill-all experience. NG1 provides something for everyone, not just a select style of gaming.

The funny thing to me is that here you are saying NG is “wimpy” by yet another poster expressed concerns that NG may be too high and possibly rivaled the CS. This is why NG is the margin that it is. NG1 wanted to avoid major power creep issues and preserve feasibility for its tech levels. And while you say you couldn’t imagine anyone wanting an NG bot, there are plenty more that eagerly want one, and desire packs of Gunwolves, or customized Bulldogs, etc., and plenty of positive reviews and sales that say NG1 is one of the best books that Palladium Books has released to date.

[The Galactus Kid]

08. Blocker Combat Robot's shield

How exactly does this work in game terms? Are we to believe that this clunky bot is fast enought parry mini-missiles?

Based on Robot Combat: Elite, bonuses are ADDED to those of the pilot, so in effect the robots in Rifts are FASTER than normal humans. Heightened reflexes, training etc all add to this. Also, missiles have been able to be parried in the rules for years. One tactic that has been described for a long time is the abaility to cover your torso with your arms, in effect taking the brunt of the damage from missile strikes.

[kaid]

08. Blocker Combat Robot's shield

How exactly does this work in game terms? Are we to believe that this clunky bot is fast enought parry mini-missiles?

Based on Robot Combat: Elite, bonuses are ADDED to those of the pilot, so in effect the robots in Rifts are FASTER than normal humans. Heightened reflexes, training etc all add to this. Also, missiles have been able to be parried in the rules for years. One tactic that has been described for a long time is the abaility to cover your torso with your arms, in effect taking the brunt of the damage from missile strikes.

That plus the fact the shield is only around 6 feet or so shorter than the mech and only 4 feet narrower than the bot means if you just flat hold it in front of you the only thing a missile could potentially hit is your head or your feet even if you don't move your arm at all.

[Hell knight]

First love NG1 cant wait for NG2 we found it very use full in the game i am in , second i am playing a NG po crisis response officer And i like it . As i got a great back story and a place were my character is from great for role playing .

LOVE NG1

[Kagashi]

After reading it, I quickly designated it a 'bathroom book'.

Most RPG buyers are no longer players, the dwindling customer base are collector/readers so creating bathroom books that offer little to actual play is the new normal of the RPG publishing world. It's not just PB. It's the hobby as a whole that does nothing to entice fresh blood and just capitalizes on who's left.

Couldnt agree more.

[kaid]

After reading it, I quickly designated it a 'bathroom book'.

Most RPG buyers are no longer players, the dwindling customer base are collector/readers so creating bathroom books that offer little to actual play is the new normal of the RPG publishing world. It's not just PB. It's the hobby as a whole that does nothing to entice fresh blood and just capitalizes on who's left.

Couldnt agree more.

This has always been pretty true. Honestly though with improvements in voice chat/video chat I have seen an upswing in actual games being played. The whole MMO thing really kicked the RPG industry in the jimmy for a bit because many people who liked one liked the other but I have been seeing a resurgance of both gaming stores and people actually doing things like playing the new board games and RPG games.

It is sort of like comics in a way where there are waves of times when its only collectors really buying stuff and not many actual "readers" and other times the popularity waxes and lots of folks get into it.



On a side note about overpriced merchandise in NG1 overall the only things I found somewhat wacky were the hover train turrets. The robot vehicles seem pretty much in the expected range of price when comparing them to existing models from other manufacturers with a pretty good range of less expensive bots to some that are huge huge like the behemoths or the medic robot vehicles but both of which are something not really aimed at a single purchaser but at things like mercenary companies/exploration caravans.


Looking at the prices we can see from NG2 of the couple power armors released both are very reasonable into power armors price wise with good power. The one from the latest sneak peek with solid oxide battery is under 1 million for price which is pretty rare for combat power armor and just at 1 mil with a nuke plant on it. The aurora blazer 2.8 mil range with a nuke plant which is still right normal range for light power armors.

The weapon costs for the hand weapons seem all about in line with what we have seen in the past although there are a couple odd outliers price wise but that is not unusual for rifts.

[The Galactus Kid]

Pepsi Jedi and I have resolved our differences and even become friends.

Good to hear. I've enjoyed reading post from both of you on here (I've been reading and responding to Pepsi for years...)

[runebeo]

I order NG 1 & MIF a week ago, should be here soon. I already have NG 2 and it was an awesome read and got me excited again. I'm hoping NG1 as good as 2, the stuff in 2 it wasn't as powerful as Triax 2 but not far too off.

[grandmaster z0b]

I haven't read NG1 but I doubt I'll buy it from the sounds of it.

What I really want in a World Book these days is history and info about the area, good maps of both the local geography and the town itself, characters with stats, lots of plot ideas and flavour. Stuff that helps me GM, that saves me the time of doing that stuff myself.

What I don't need is another book with robots, guns and OCCs. There are more than enough books like that, especially in North America.

Also, the stupid thing with giant robots have guns that do 6d6 damage when there are relatively cheap energy rifles all the way back to the original RMB that do 6d6 or 1d4x10 really puts me off buying robot books. Maybe I would be more interested in those books if those things were fixed but really that just needs a general overhaul anyway. While we're on that point, I was reading the original Robotech book the other day and that had the damages for it's vehicles pretty well done. The robots had a variety of burst modes they could use, that did appropriate damage and many had area of effect. The big robots did big damage and the smaller ones did smaller damage. Why did Rifts that obviously used the rules from Robotech get the damages so wrong?

All respect to the writers but it doesn't sound like my cup of tea.

On the other hand we've had some great North American world books in the last 10 years; Madhaven and Arzno both excelled in the flavour department.