Interesting read/review

[rosco60559]

Read it figured there may be few others interested here to check it out.

http://diehardgamefan.com/2014/10/27/ta ... -rulebook/

[Mike1975]

Sounds like a partially embittered backer under it all with the last comment reminiscent of some in the KS. What he likely does not know is a few things. First playtesters or at least the vast majority of them NEVER saw the rulebook as we have it but notes on the rules. Second playtesters also had the actual Force Orgs that SHOULD have been in the box in some format. Third, there is a good reason that points are not in the book. It was per design. Some units have numerous upgrades and things like the Spartan exist in more than one faction. Trying to put everything into one book below every unit including every squadron it could be in and every upgrade would have made the book much more complicated and confusing. Decent Force Org charts for all 3 Factions would have resovled all of these issues by themselves. Why does the person not see that? We are simply used to one unit being in one faction and having only a few upgrades in every other game we have played. RRT being a squadron based game it is hard to break out of habit and realize this key and important difference. Not a bad review, just not a completely informed one either.

[Gogal]

First playtesters or at least the vast majority of them NEVER saw the rulebook as we have it but notes on the rules.

How did you actually test this game without the rules? Notes and the actual rules are two different things. How could it happen that the play testers never saw the real book? That is like testing software without the actual software but with mock ups.
(I know you were a tester)

Second playtesters also had the actual Force Orgs that SHOULD have been in the box in some format.

If you are play testing the actual rules, and the orgs are not in the book why did you have them? You aren't testing the rules as the players who get the game will be playing

Third, there is a good reason that points are not in the book. It was per design. Some units have numerous upgrades and things like the Spartan exist in more than one faction. Trying to put everything into one book below every unit including every squadron it could be in and every upgrade would have made the book much more complicated and confusing.

I have to disagree, I would love to have been able to sit in bed and read the book and build and learn about everything from the book. Right now, the book is incomplete in terms of building and understanding the game. I can say that I have very limited time to read/learn the rules to games, most of which happens on the toilet or in bed while I am feeding my daughter. Using he cards in either place is rather awkward, unwieldy, and it has gotten confusing at times. While having it there would have made things may have made it confusing at times, it would have been a one stop shopping. It is a matter of preference, but at times the number of cards gets more confusing than everything would be in the book.

Decent Force Org charts for all 3 Factions would have resovled all of these issues by themselves. Why does the person not see that? We are simply used to one unit being in one faction and having only a few upgrades in every other game we have played. RRT being a squadron based game it is hard to break out of habit and realize this key and important difference. Not a bad review, just not a completely informed one either.

The org charts would have been nice, but I have used the ones on the links, and they are only partially useful. The thing is, for me, the org chart with references to pages in the book with the actual stats would have been incredibly useful.
Think of it this way... Sitting in bed with an infant in one arm, and the book in the other. I am trying to learn the game, I can only go to the point of general mechanics, color chart, and some special players, and the integration with the RPG. Now, I have to build an army, or at least learn how units work by pulling out a bunch of different sized cards. I then have to inevitably fight to keep my feeding infant from grabbing and playing with, eating, or loosing those cards.

I am used to the concept of building an army based on squadrons with unit based upgrades and I find the rule book only partially useful for the reasons that author listed. I understand some of the reasons for why things ended up the way they did, I just think more information in the book would have been better, even if it were a little more awkward. I could sit down with one thing and learn to play. I also think that some of the potential issues with squads being able to be used in different factions could have been denoted with visual clues in the book and section. I look at the old Star Wars RPGs that denoted various legal items for factions and eras with faction and era symbols.
This is all a moot discussion as what we got is what we got. I just think there were many places to improve.
I am always nervous about posting dissenting opinions here because they usually get people banned/warned when they do.

[glitterboy2098]

actually, the org info is found in the description of the standard game size, which is in the rulebook.

[rosco60559]

It's been my experience that most if not all systems tell you how to build the army before describing factions. I wasn't too impressed seeing zero points costs on all if those units then after all the faction/unit descriptions. It just seemed an afterthought in the how to build an army section that could have been a paragraph or 2 before all the factional info with the pick a core card then add 1-2 support and 1 elite/special. It would have been awesome if we could have our own squads with the individual costs. Heck maybe even some cool scenarios or duals.

[Mike1975]

Gogal, simple...word documents....we had THE rules just not THE rulebook as it exists now. There is a big difference.

Again, the Force Orgs were also provided to all during the KS in update 108 and 124 if I am not mistaken. So you don't have to have the rulebook in it's final form to play. You never did.

Again, I think my explanation is very clear and simple. You have for example the Spartan. It exists in BOTH the Malcontents and UEDF armies and with different upgrades. It can also exist on like 8 different squadrons. Having every option for every squadron in the book would be a bit much. It may not be what you are used to but it was the right decision for this game and how it is set up and focused on squadron level combat.

On the last point I agree, decent Force Orgs would have been a help. I have them memorized or nearly so since I would up making my own.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B0VSN ... authuser=0

[Forar]

Even just stripping out the artwork and going with flat stats, including the squad info (mechs involved, points, upgrades available) would not have been an insurmountable amount of information have in the book.

If they ever do a version 2/revision, that'd be among the top of my list of things to add in.

Like, hooray, I have the stats for a Spartan... but not any info (without flipping through cards) to see how I can actually use them in my force (aside from 'in pairs as an upgrade card' kind of obvious things).

And that doesn't change that it means people will have to make purchases under assumptions or without complete info. How will I include YF-4's in my forces? *shrug*, have to buy a YF-4 box to find out. Or join a facebook page to download a fan's personal versions, I suppose, something I remain surprised PB is cool with.

[Mike1975]

Even just stripping out the artwork and going with flat stats, including the squad info (mechs involved, points, upgrades available) would not have been an insurmountable amount of information have in the book.

If they ever do a version 2/revision, that'd be among the top of my list of things to add in.

Like, hooray, I have the stats for a Spartan... but not any info (without flipping through cards) to see how I can actually use them in my force (aside from 'in pairs as an upgrade card' kind of obvious things).

And that doesn't change that it means people will have to make purchases under assumptions or without complete info. How will I include YF-4's in my forces? *shrug*, have to buy a YF-4 box to find out. Or join a facebook page to download a fan's personal versions, I suppose, something I remain surprised PB is cool with.

Hence why I stated Force Org charts would have been useful. Going through the book and having every option and every combination for each and every unit would not have worked well. Much better to have Force Org Charts and then the upgrades on the cards.

Also the Force Orgs have been readily available as well as the Fan made versions you refer to on page Jaymz created. It was created in part specifically for that reason so that non-FB people would still have access. http://robotechrpgtactics.boards.net/

[glitterboy2098]

i'm not sure why everyone keeps saying "there is nothing on how to build an army"

it's right there on pg77.. "building an army"
the only limit aside from faction is a minimum 1 core force for every 150pts. and that 300pts (and thus at least 2 core forces) are the size of the standard game.

[rosco60559]

glitterboy, I think it's in reference to showing all the units, their stats and no point costs.

[Mike1975]

glitterboy, I think it's in reference to showing all the units, their stats and no point costs.

Correct, you can see the stats of every unit but the actual squadron formations as well as upgrades are not in the book. I figured the main box would have something along those lines in it and never asked. I had also made my own from what was shared during the KS and did not need them as much since much of them I had memorized.

[Forar]

Yes, what Rosco said.

I can open the book, and I can see Spartans and Defenders and VT's. How many of them go into a 150 point force? In what numbers? And what upgrades might be available? Oh, I need the cards to do that.

Needing the cards to do that is the point of contention here. Having a page that had a concise series of blocks that noted what made up an Attack Squadron or an Armoured Division or whatever they're called and what upgrades they had for what points (just the names and values) wouldn't have taken up much space, but would at least be a starting point for force building using the book alone.

Needing to be referencing the cards and book is not the end of the world, but it is an issue for some, and that is exacerbated by the fact that apparently the backers didn't get some cards.

Can't reference cards we didn't get.

And no, spending $15-30 for an expansion box just to get the missing cards isn't a reasonable option. Yes, before someone points it out, that happens in X-Wing, but those are generally a few pilots/upgrades and snagging a TIE and X-Wing box for the main culprits (those which have things not found in the core box) is roughly $20 for both, less on a good sale.

Even better, there are simple force builder websites with all the pilots, upgrades and whatnot that you can build with.

Perhaps it'll just take time for that to show up with RRT, but for now, it's a concern.

[Mike1975]

Any force you can make with the Main box had cards for it IN the main Box. Where the failure came was with a few of the ones in the bonus items that were missed.

[Forar]

Any force you can make with the Main box had cards for it IN the main Box. Where the failure came was with a few of the ones in the bonus items that were missed.

Which would be less of an issue if the book had more complete info.

It'd be annoying to not have the cards for play, but at least full and official versions would be on hand without needing to peruse the net and see if someone has their images uploaded.

Hey, we just found something else to put on the FAQ!

[Battle Damage]

Not having the point costs of all the units readily available stops people from theory-crafting alternate lists, which means they are less likely to spend on expansions. Some will get around this by using things like battlescribe and other resources, but it would be nice if PB put something official out that met this need. It's in their own interest after all.

[Very Fun One Jr]

Why the cards were considered at all is mysterious to me. All that data could have been placed in the book and all the money of printing, sorting, and packing the cards could have been saved for something else. Not to mention that the cards are much more likely to get lost, torn, or confused with those of other players. I also don't understand why the Phase II equipment and cards were left out of the base set. Of course they are not available at the moment, but a customer purchasing the game in 9 months is going to get them (I hope)! I don't think the reviewers comments were the result of bitterness, he makes good points with comparative examples.

[rosco60559]

Here's why I'd like the individual point costs

Through the cards we figure out a vf1s is 30 points. A valkyrie squad is 80, the support of 2 vf1as is 40. How many points is the 1j? It has better skills than the A model and a leadership bonus. There's not a game around where a squad leader is as cheap as the rank and file when that leader has better skills and a boost to leadership.

I know an individual point cost would help tons for the skirmish part of this game that is unfortunately a paragraph

[glitterboy2098]

Here's why I'd like the individual point costs

Through the cards we figure out a vf1s is 30 points. A valkyrie squad is 80, the support of 2 vf1as is 40. How many points is the 1j? It has better skills than the A model and a leadership bonus. There's not a game around where a squad leader is as cheap as the rank and file when that leader has better skills and a boost to leadership.

I know an individual point cost would help tons for the skirmish part of this game that is unfortunately a paragraph

since you can only get a VF-1J as part of a core squadron.. why would it matter?

[rosco60559]

Glitterboy, if you're Playing at the skirmish level of the game the core squad cards are not used. You break out just a single support/special cards per side that are close to points. I'd rather have a individual point cost and field what I want not what's just on the cards, in fact I'd rather do that for the whole game as well.

[Mike1975]

Here's why I'd like the individual point costs

Through the cards we figure out a vf1s is 30 points. A valkyrie squad is 80, the support of 2 vf1as is 40. How many points is the 1j? It has better skills than the A model and a leadership bonus. There's not a game around where a squad leader is as cheap as the rank and file when that leader has better skills and a boost to leadership.

I know an individual point cost would help tons for the skirmish part of this game that is unfortunately a paragraph

It's a squadron based game. Leaders are like a bonus added in when you purchase and entire squadron. Thinking that pods are 6.3 points each and that you get 12 in a squadron means the squadron SHOULD cost 76 points is nice but that is not how the game was made or designed. Having squadrons means you need to have a squadron to play. Individual units cost just means that you have a Robotech version of Alpha Strike.

[PANZERBUNNY]

Odd there isn't a limit on characters beyond the point limit. Say 10pts of characters for every core card. Maybe only 5 pts.

[Forar]

The points themselves are a limiting factor. If someone takes 3 VT squads (240 points) and loads all 12 VT's down with 'Ricks', in theory that should still be a balanced fight against an opponent's 3 VT squads and whatever they spend their other 60 points on, be it a support card, or a core card, or unit upgrades, etc.

Now, not every single thing is going to be perfectly balanced against every single other thing, but within some reasonable margin of error, it should sort itself out over enough games/a long enough timeline.

And if not, then somebody screwed up, and it should be errata'd.

[PANZERBUNNY]

Curious if there was a mistake with Khyron. It mentions only Regults can't reinforce if sacrificed, but other units are considered mech, including Infantry. One would assume they meant mecha, but as it stands, that isn't the case.

[Dionysus]

The book is a first printing for a game that isn't even fully released yet. I think the decision to leave points out of the book is a good idea, it allows for changes to happen on the fly without forcing everybody to buy a brand-new book. Once everything has been released, if they find out that some squadrons are overpowered they can simply make new cards.

Also because of the way they did it they'll be able to better balance the wave two squadrons.

[Kryptt]

The book is a first printing for a game that isn't even fully released yet. I think the decision to leave points out of the book is a good idea, it allows for changes to happen on the fly without forcing everybody to buy a brand-new book. Once everything has been released, if they find out that some squadrons are overpowered they can simply make new cards.

Also because of the way they did it they'll be able to better balance the wave two squadrons.

It is a fully released game. Miniature games have small releases throughout the games life, like wave two. It's like saying rifts isn't a fully released game because new books keep coming out. Either way if your not buying a new book your still buying new cards.