how can a wizard get the ppe to cast a high level spell

[madmarvin]

how can a wizard get the ppe to cast a high level spell
ie. dimensional portal 1000ppe

the only way i can see with my understanding of the rules as of Rue. is a ritual with multiple spell casters or large groups of people.
or a truck load of ppe batteries.

if thats what it takes i'm sure mages have little problem carting around 30-40 ppe talsiman bracelets, earings, etc.

what i'm wondering what was the orignal intent. forced group casting, or what?????

[Glistam]

These older topics from the magic forum may help.

http://palladium-megaverse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=146924

http://palladium-megaverse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=144492

[ShadowLogan]

Casting High level Spells mentioned in the books:
-some classes cast specific spells at reduced PPE cost (this is noted in the wizard class)
-Pacts with a higher Super Natural Intelligence (Witches, but also Shifters)
-PPE Batteries, which include Talismans & Energy Spheres (IIRC)
-Share PPE (other casters or normal folk, some summoned creatures)
-Ritual Sacrifice (PPE at death doubles)
-Ley Lines and Ley Line Nexus Points can provide additional PPE
--Solstice and some other events are known to provide additional PPE when dealing with Ley Lines/Nexus Points

[madmarvin]

i still can't tell, what was intended, but the sense i got from those threads and from the books. is that the really high ppe spells are really difficult to if not impossible to cast alone.

i like that idea of a being able to draw on a leyline and building the magic for the duration of a ritual. allowing the ablity to cast pretty much any spell well on a leyline. and from what i have read its not really covered either way under then rules. but i think it would be over powered

problem is the rules have changed with the same fluff, used to be you could only draw so much per time period leading to the importance of heightened times, and ritual usefullness.

but now with 10ppe per melee. i don't really understand how heightened times and rituals are meant to be incorperated.

[Nekira Sudacne]

how can a wizard get the ppe to cast a high level spell
ie. dimensional portal 1000ppe

the only way i can see with my understanding of the rules as of Rue. is a ritual with multiple spell casters or large groups of people.
or a truck load of ppe batteries.

if thats what it takes i'm sure mages have little problem carting around 30-40 ppe talsiman bracelets, earings, etc.

what i'm wondering what was the orignal intent. forced group casting, or what?????

Things like dimensional portal are tradittioanlly the kind of things mages are supposed to wait for a Solstace or Equinox to cast at a nexus point--that or have a LOT of friends for a ritual.

Mostly, really high level spells are, thematically, the kind of things wizards seek out nexus's and take the astronomy skill for. so they can time their castings to peak times of magic. they are not generally intended to be things to cast whenever you want, but big rituals to work twords.

[madmarvin]

thanks thats what i was thinking

on a related topic its not uncommon for techno-wizardry ppe cost to be in the high hundreds to thousands of ppe. would it work the same way with them?
i'm assuming that it would.

[Nekira Sudacne]

thanks thats what i was thinking

on a related topic its not uncommon for techno-wizardry ppe cost to be in the high hundreds to thousands of ppe. would it work the same way with them?
i'm assuming that it would.

Pretty much

[Mack]

thanks thats what i was thinking

on a related topic its not uncommon for techno-wizardry ppe cost to be in the high hundreds to thousands of ppe. would it work the same way with them?
i'm assuming that it would.

A well supplied TW can work around that limitation by adding more gems to the device, which will lower the PPE Construction Cost.

Also, an experienced TW can build a pretty good PPE storage device based off the spell Energy Sphere. He can fill it up at a ley line and then carry it back to his shop to use as needed. (A fifth level device would store 500 PPE for 10 days.) And he can make it Ley Line powered so that it fills itself up when on a Ley Line, so an assistant can make the trip back and forth.

Likewise, a normal Mage could use a Energy Sphere or two (and a ley line) to collect the power he needs.

-----------
But to the overall topic. Yes, those spells are supposed to be difficult to cast.

[Killer Cyborg]

how can a wizard get the ppe to cast a high level spell
ie. dimensional portal 1000ppe

the only way i can see with my understanding of the rules as of Rue. is a ritual with multiple spell casters or large groups of people.
or a truck load of ppe batteries.

if thats what it takes i'm sure mages have little problem carting around 30-40 ppe talsiman bracelets, earings, etc.

what i'm wondering what was the orignal intent. forced group casting, or what?????

Teamwork and planning.
Big spells were intended to be a big deal, not something done gutsy could do by himself on a whim.

[glitterboy2098]

the amount of PPE a mage has at any given time goes up with their level. they get their PE stat plus an amount defined by the OCC to start at lv1, then as they level up they gain a bit more each time.

but that's just the base amounts.

Mage's have the ability to pull PPE from a bunch of different sources, and hold a lot more than their base amounts. though they usually can only hold more than the base amount for hours at a time.. it's not something where they can keep holding onto energy until needed, they gotta use any extra soon or they're gonna lose it.


most mages can draw PPE from other living things through various means. a willing subject can give up to 70% of their PPE to the mage as long as they are within 20ft. unwilling subjects generally cannot be used (saving throws are involved and only a tiny amount of PPE can be pulled..)

sacrifices also are a source of PPE.. on death a livingthing releases doubled PPE, and a mage can absorb all of it. however such blood sacrifices generally fall onto the 'evil' side of the alignment spectrum, more good aligned mages generally only do it as a last resort.

these sources though are usually fairly limited.. the typical human only has 2D6 PPE, and animals tend to fall into a similar spectrum unless the animal is really large.

if you have magic artifacts made to store PPE (like talismans) you can pull from those as well, but those aren't exactly common.

the big source of energy is going to be ley lines and ley line nexi. ley lines are 'rivers' of PPE, geographical locations where magic energy gathers. where two or more leyl ines cross is a nexi.

a mage can draw 10 PPE per melee (15 seconds) on a leyline, and 20 at a nexus.

so it would only take 25 minutes to gather enough energy from a ley line to cast dimensional portal (assuming your not using your own PPE as well), or about 13 minutes on a nexus.

and these can be boosted by environmental/astrological factors.. at dawn, midday, and midnight it doubles for a short time, during equinoxes it triples, during solstices it's 10 fold, during lunar eclipses it's 12x, and solar eclipses its 30x, and planetary alignments (which can last for days) are on par with the eclipses. so if you pick your timing right, you can greatly reduce the amount of time it takes to build up the PPE you need.

generally low level characters will find it tricky to get the energy they need for really big spells, but if your higher level it will be easier.

[Hotrod]

This is why I see most magic users as working better in cabals and having young apprentices who don't know any spells, but are developing their PPE base.

"Yes, yes, Herbert, I'll get around to teaching you Globe of Daylight sometime this winter. Now be a good boy and hold hands with the others, please..."

[flatline]

The easiest way was to have magic using allies such that your combined PPE totaled at or above the required amount. Every GM I ever played with ruled that mages could donate 100% of their PPE if they wanted to and that the 80% (70%?) listed for ritual donation was for folks not trained in the use of their PPE. Someone said that Mysteries of Magic (MoM) made that ruling canon, but I just flipped through it and was unable to confirm that.

However, now that by canon rules a mage can hold 3x their base PPE, you really only need one or two allies to cast spells up to 1000PPE or so.

MoM seems to indicate that you can no longer pull 50% PPE from unaware targets (as per RMB), but instead can only pull 1d4PPE, but mages on a busy pedestrian street or sitting on a bench in a mall can still steal approximately 300 PPE per hour for each attack per melee they have (5 attacks per melee yields 1500 PPE per hour). Yes, I assumed that 50% of the attempts would fail which is slightly pessimistic.

If you don't have any allies and you need more than 3x your base PPE, then it helps to have access to Energy Sphere or Talisman.

[glitterboy2098]

RUE states unwilling donors have to be aware of the process occurring, have a save vs magic at +4, and you can only take 1%.

which basically means there is little chance of getting anything useful.

i do wonder how exactly the blood sacrifice works. does it have to be a ritual, or can you just siiphon off the PPE of enemies as you or your allies kill them in battle?

[eliakon]

RUE states unwilling donors have to be aware of the process occurring, have a save vs magic at +4, and you can only take 1%.

which basically means there is little chance of getting anything useful.

i do wonder how exactly the blood sacrifice works. does it have to be a ritual, or can you just siiphon off the PPE of enemies as you or your allies kill them in battle?

yeah 1% of 3d6 is going to be less than a point.....

I recall reading someplace on blood sacrifice that you have to be aware of the death and ready to channel it.
So you cant use it in combat unless you know that a give blow will kill something and begin the ritual before it dies.
Which makes sense to me (and explains why mages are not rocking battlefields soaking up massive PPE...)

[Rallan]

A woodchipper, access to the county rubbish dump, and Summon & Control Rodents.

[Blue_Lion]

Most likely it requires a multiple person ritual or special time of year if not both some creature do have much higher ppe.

[Tor]

I think the big thing isn't so much whether you can get the PPE, but how much PPE someone can use at once.

From RMB I have no idea how someone could cast it. I think maybe KS expected us to assume that you could use the heightened PPE at times of power to go directly into a ritual (possibly even spell) without having to actually absorb it. Or maybe the same when getting PPE donated into a ritual (not sure about spell).

BOM allowing more-than-full temporary PPE storage and RUE boosting the PPE of Walkers/Shifters (sorry Mystics) also opened the door wider.

With basic ley lines giving so much ongoing PPE though, we probably need clearer rules on how that works. When all we had to worry about was big spikes at times of power, it wasn't a huge concern, but now, a LLW could get 80 PPE / minute and be able to cast a 1200 PPE spell in 15 minutes, unless there's some kind of limit on how PPE is consolidated.

In addition to the two 2014 threads Glistam linked, also found this from 2010: http://palladiumbooks.com/forums/viewto ... 8&t=112571

Lenwen helpfully points out Boom of Magic page 21, I always forget where to look for that. It's the question at the bottom of the left column, the "up to three times their normal limit". Although I still can't remember if we ever resolved that "three times as extra" versus "three times as total" argument. As in, if I have 100, can I store extra 300 making 400, or extra 200 making 300?

The Rifter FAQ had originally said PE in hours, BoM wrote that off as a mistake even though the FAQ said it was reviewed so... I still call it a shady retcon

The question right after this in the right column talks more about PPE for big spells. What I'm just unclear on is if it's generically talking about places to get PPE or actually introducing some way of casting spells with a cost higher than 3 or 4 times your max.

[Library Ogre]

A woodchipper, access to the county rubbish dump, and Summon & Control Rodents.

In my view, Palladium Summoners frequently work with slaughterhouses.

[Hotrod]

A woodchipper, access to the county rubbish dump, and Summon & Control Rodents.

In my view, Palladium Summoners frequently work with slaughterhouses.

Also an excellent place of employment for Psi-Slayers.

[kaid]

i still can't tell, what was intended, but the sense i got from those threads and from the books. is that the really high ppe spells are really difficult to if not impossible to cast alone.

i like that idea of a being able to draw on a leyline and building the magic for the duration of a ritual. allowing the ablity to cast pretty much any spell well on a leyline. and from what i have read its not really covered either way under then rules. but i think it would be over powered

problem is the rules have changed with the same fluff, used to be you could only draw so much per time period leading to the importance of heightened times, and ritual usefullness.

but now with 10ppe per melee. i don't really understand how heightened times and rituals are meant to be incorperated.

In the book of magic you can store I believe up to 3 times your max ppe for a short period of time on ley lined which help you to do the really big spells so for short periods of time you can basically let the ley line feed more PPE into you than you are capable of storing long term. This is also how ritual sacrifices help killing something doubles its PPE on death and you have a fleeting window to use that extra PPE to power a spell.

The easiest less gruesome way to accomplish this is with friends. What one caster alone cannot do a group of spell casters working together to share the PPE cost can.

[kaid]

thanks thats what i was thinking

on a related topic its not uncommon for techno-wizardry ppe cost to be in the high hundreds to thousands of ppe. would it work the same way with them?
i'm assuming that it would.

Pretty much

Although if you look at a lot of the TW constructions parts of it take infusions of PPE with a final big hit of PPE for the final completion/activation of the item. So for a lot of the really pricey PPE wise TW items it seems like they are designed to be built/enchanted over time to spread the cost out with the final remainder lump being needed at the end.

[kaid]

RUE states unwilling donors have to be aware of the process occurring, have a save vs magic at +4, and you can only take 1%.

which basically means there is little chance of getting anything useful.

i do wonder how exactly the blood sacrifice works. does it have to be a ritual, or can you just siiphon off the PPE of enemies as you or your allies kill them in battle?

For most people you need a basic short ritual to gain the boosted PPE to actually harvest it. This is why mages in combat are not just doubling enemies PPE when killed in battle. It also is what makes some of the more recent rifter necro spells really dirty because they allow exactly that in combat PPE doubling on kills.

[Glistam]

The last player who played a mage in my game, I made sure that they understood exactly how I understood the rules for magic rituals and P.P.E. gathering and sharing, as noted in the threads I linked earlier. His answer was to try and not deal with it, and instead just focus on the smaller P.P.E. spells and make his P.P.E. reserve as large as reasonably possible with his Nightbane traits. I was disappointed, but I recognize that not everyone has the time to do the bookkeeping and math required to make it work.

[Tor]

In my view, Palladium Summoners frequently work with slaughterhouses.

Also an excellent place of employment for Psi-Slayers.

Would "person's available PPE" include cows' PPE or are we talking a more Splugorth-style slaughterhouse of sentients?

[Jorick]

Perhaps a ritual does not require an expenditure of PPE all at once. An invocation requires saying a phrase and then casting. The phrase is powered by the PPE. That's simple.

But perhaps a ritual is many different things empowered by PPE. Not just a phrase.

Example: X amount of PPE cast into a cauldron to enchant it/prime it. You now have a time limit, which could be significant, to finish the spell in the cauldron. X amount of PPE cast onto entrails of a rat an hour later, which are then thrown into the cauldron. An hour later, X amount of PPE cast onto a toad which is then thrown into the cauldron. Etc until complete.


Isn't this kinda how circles are made? Palladium Fantasy Summoner probably explains a bit more about that (or the Fantasy magic book, or maybe even conversion book...somewhere where circles are described). I can't look it up right now. Regardless, I think it makes sense.


EDIT: This works for TW creation too. The TW, over the course of a few weeks, enchants piece after piece. Blacksmiths need to melt the metal and fold it and hammer it and whatever, and then attach it to this or that. TW's, instead of working the metal, take the time to generate the PPE and enchant the pieces at each step (to get them to attach correctly, or whatever). You can enchant a bit at first, leave it on the table, come back a week later and enchant the next bit and attach it, and leave it on the table for another week.

[Nightmask]

A woodchipper, access to the county rubbish dump, and Summon & Control Rodents.

In my view, Palladium Summoners frequently work with slaughterhouses.

And at least one cabal of evil sorcerers built an entire slaughterhouse explicitly as a magical PPE-gathering device from the slaughtering. There's enough PPE available generally to cast all but the permanent version of the Metropolis spell easily.

Oh, and Stone Master-created Pyramids particularly the extra-large ones can have thousands of PPE available daily for spell-casting purposes, so anyone partnered with a Stone Master can potentially access large amounts of PPE on a regular basis.

[Tor]

Since rituals do take time to cast, I do like the idea of you having from when it starts to when it finishes to pump in the PPE. This would definitely allow someone to suck-per-melee-round from a ley line to cast it pretty easily.

Also would make more people do rituals (particularly le poor Mystic) since instant-cast spells would not have that benefit.

Back when spells took longer to cast, like 2 rounds for high level ones, that also might've given you more time (spend part of the PPE at the start of round 1, spend the rest at the end of round 2) but since there wasn't any per-melee ley line harvesting back then I'm not sure what the benefit would be.

Perhaps in RUE players could be given the option of non-ritual casting higher level spells at their old rates (a full melee for 7-10, 2 melees for 11-15) which could make a slight difference of 10(20ifLLW) or 20 (40ifLLW) PPE harvesting from a line during casting, if it would make the difference. But no stretching it out further than that without going full ritual?

[Jorick]

Since rituals do take time to cast, I do like the idea of you having from when it starts to when it finishes to pump in the PPE. This would definitely allow someone to suck-per-melee-round from a ley line to cast it pretty easily.

Also would make more people do rituals (particularly le poor Mystic) since instant-cast spells would not have that benefit.

Back when spells took longer to cast, like 2 rounds for high level ones, that also might've given you more time (spend part of the PPE at the start of round 1, spend the rest at the end of round 2) but since there wasn't any per-melee ley line harvesting back then I'm not sure what the benefit would be.

Perhaps in RUE players could be given the option of non-ritual casting higher level spells at their old rates (a full melee for 7-10, 2 melees for 11-15) which could make a slight difference of 10(20ifLLW) or 20 (40ifLLW) PPE harvesting from a line during casting, if it would make the difference. But no stretching it out further than that without going full ritual?

I'm not sure if there's actually any word on this (I feel like there is somewhere), but I think the time for a ritual can be flexible. Like, if it says 1 hour, then that's a minimum. Rituals can be different for the same spell (is that talked about somewhere, or did I make that up? regardless...), because different teachers, and schools, and classes do things differently. A ritual for a necromancer and one for a mystic would look completely different for the same spell. 1 hour to perform the ritual can be a minimum (you gotta chant the incantations just so, and let this gross thing marinate in that gross stuff for this long), but you could probably spread it out. If you can invocate it, then you can reduce the time time too probably (why not?). Maybe learning a faster technique is a goal (we'll only have 10 minutes to do the thing once we reach the middle of the temple!? Well, then before we enter the temple we've got to collect the right stuff to do the ritual in a faster way that we first have to learn about by finding Isis spying on demons under a rock in Hades).

The ritual just has to be precise. Again, I feel like there's something about this in a description of circle making. Like you can start drawing the circle, and leave it and then come back, but no one could scuff up the part you made already or you have to start over. Something like that.

Just like TWing, it's up to the GM and players to figure out how it should work in any specific instance. Maybe the characters have to collect the right things, or maybe they're in danger of being interrupted, and therefore specificities matter for the players. Or maybe you just play it like going to the bathroom (you took care of it, who cares). I think the opportunity is really there for the characters to interrupt a high level NPC ritual. You don't need all the details, just enough (bad guys are collecting all the the things, and it should be set to go off at Midnight on Thursday--knock over the cauldron before midnight on Thursday--win).

I figure if you gotta find a stonemaster to build you an entire pyramid to make mass dimensional teleportation work regularly, you can ask the players to jump through a few, smaller, hoops before they can manage to do it right once.

[Library Ogre]

I also allow rituals taking place on ley lines/nexuses/other points of power to "fill" the PPE requirement over time... so if you're getting X PPE per melee in a ritual that's going to take 60 minutes, then you'll be able to put 240X PPE into the ritual with no cost to yourself.

[Tor]

Or 480 if LLW or Mystic Knight, or 960 if both.

[Glistam]

This was what I worked out regarding mages gathering P.P.E. to cast spells, and what I put together regarding rituals. Bottom line: I believe the intent with magic was for high level, high-P.P.E. spells to be difficult or even impossible for a lone mage to cast alone, which gives value to mage guilds and cults.

Even the simplest of tasks in Palladium tend to take at least one melee attack/action to perform. So after reviewing all the contributors' input on this discussion I feel justified in continuing to require a mage to expend an action in order to gather P.P.E. from an external source prior to actually casting a non-ritual spell (which also takes its usual action(s)). More than one source requires more than one action - each source takes its own action to focus and pull P.P.E. from.

Also, the duration and amount of P.P.E. they can hold above their base is still limited as noted in the texts used (Book of Magic or Mysteries of Magic), so if the spell's P.P.E. is greater than the mage's base + the extra they can hold then the spell will be unable to be cast by that mage, except as a ritual. The mage will then need to make preparations to have enough P.P.E. available during the ritual (THIS is where a deck of playing cards, each their own P.P.E. talisman, could be a useful and cool ritual "prop").

I know not everyone agrees with my interpretation but for the purposes of my games, and in the absence of clarifying canon material, this is what I will be continuing to implement.

I think this is what I've worked out:

• Each ritual is unique; the time to cast it is rolled once when the spell is learned, and that's how long it takes for that mage to cast it.
• The act of casting a ritual spell allows for multiple sources of energy to be directed into the spell, without requiring the mage to try and absorb and hold all that energy. The ritual primes these sources of energy for this task. Such sources could be any or all of:
  
  • The mage's P.P.E.
  • The full P.P.E. amount of all the other participants.
  • Any sacrifices performed at the conclusion of the ritual (willing or unwilling).
  • Any P.P.E. from talismen or other magical storage devices being utilized.
  • Ley Line or Nexus energy available at the conclusion of the ritual.
• An interruption of more than 30 seconds will stop the ritual and cause 30% of the total available P.P.E. to leak away. This includes:
  
  • The mage's available P.P.E.... reduced by 30%.
  • The P.P.E. of all the participants... reduced by 30%
  • The P.P.E. of any sacrificial victims who have been willing participants in the ritual... reduced by 30%.
    
    But, if the victim has been resisting the ritual they may not lose any P.P.E. (which in a twisted way makes them even more valuable if the ritual has to be immediately restarted).
  • The P.P.E. of any P.P.E. storage devices... reduced by 30%.
  • The P.P.E. available from the Ley Line or Nexus... reduced by 30%, but only for that melee round (or whatever appropriate time frame if the energy is coming at another interval).
• If any of the other participants are removed from the ritual, their P.P.E. becomes unavailable.
• If the leader of the ritual is incapacitated or removed from the ritual, the ritual will be ended prematurely (see the 30% P.P.E. losses, above) unless one of the other participants also knows the ritual and can take over casting it. In such a case, the loss of the leader only removes the leader's P.P.E. from the ritual.

This is a lot of P.P.E. being gathered, focused and flung around. In the case of rituals that end after a 30 second interruption I feel it would be appropriate to have all that P.P.E. "lost" actually somehow matter - Nightbane book 3: Through the Glass Darkly has some good ideas in that regard that I'm thinking would be appropriate to implement.

As much as I like them for casting invocations, I believe the "overcharging" rules which have been introduced into Palladium with the printing of the Rifts: Book of Magic and Palladium Fantasy Mysteries of Magic: The Heart of Magic books have taken away a lot of the need for casting spells as rituals. But a mage trying to build up their P.P.E. using those rules so they can cast a spell could still be seen or interpreted as performing a ritual. It takes time to build up the charge of P.P.E. they might be looking for, and that can take several minutes depending on how they do it and which magic rules from which book they use.

Still though, I feel rituals have their place. At the least, even with "overcharging" mages still can't absorb and hold enough P.P.E. for those really big spells, no matter how much is available around them. The mage as a P.P.E. battery has a finite limit, and an invocation spell that costs more P.P.E. then they can actually hold onto is out of their reach. Enter the ritual - multiple mages, or a mage with multiple followers, or even just a lone mage during a big celestial event... they all can now work together to exceed the P.P.E. pool limit of even the most powerful mage and allow the bigger spells to actually be cast.