An unexpected danger in Rifts.

[cyberdon]

And I'm enjoying it.

Here it is:

Lack o' credits.

MDC armour is expensive to maintain, and the mercenary job the party just completed in my campaign has left them seriously in the red. Indeedy, the damage they took during the mission -which now needs to be repaired- far outweighs the pay they're receiving.

It's cool. They group is now getting worried they'll eventually find themselves trying to survive on the mean streets o' Free Quebec.

This' a whole new, welcome dimension to the game.

My advice to gms? Never hand wave the need for cash in game.

[Blue_Lion]

And I'm enjoying it.

Here it is:

Lack o' credits.

MDC armour is expensive to maintain, and the mercenary job the party just completed in my campaign has left them seriously in the red. Indeedy, the damage they took during the mission -which now needs to be repaired- far outweighs the pay they're receiving.

It's cool. They group is now getting worried they'll eventually find themselves trying to survive on the mean streets o' Free Quebec.

This' a whole new, welcome dimension to the game.

My advice to gms? Never hand wave the need for cash in game.

The only time I hand wave cash for repairs is when the PCs are part of a large merc group operation. A company of mercs doing a job are going to get paid well.

Typically in my games for small groups salvage is where they get the credits for repairs.

Careful with using the repairs as to much of a penalty as it can lead to the group not having fun. And having fun is what playing a game is about.

[Killer Cyborg]

And I'm enjoying it.

Here it is:

Lack o' credits.

MDC armour is expensive to maintain, and the mercenary job the party just completed in my campaign has left them seriously in the red. Indeedy, the damage they took during the mission -which now needs to be repaired- far outweighs the pay they're receiving.

It's cool. They group is now getting worried they'll eventually find themselves trying to survive on the mean streets o' Free Quebec.

This' a whole new, welcome dimension to the game.

My advice to gms? Never hand wave the need for cash in game.

To me, this is how Rifts is SUPPOSED to be played.
Unlike other RPGs like D&D, in Rifts (for most characters) your armor is your life, and it cannot be repaired cheaply and easily.
You don't get to take a nap and drink a potion after every battle; you have to find an armor shop, and you have to shell out cash for repairs (not to mention more ammunition).
This means that PCs need to think before they wade into battle. Even minor damage costs you thousands of credits, so it's often better to avoid violence when possible.
It also skews the way that threats are assessed. A victory against an easy enemy isn't necessarily a victory if you sustained even minor damage, if you won't be able to get your armor repaired before the next fight.
A series of seemingly easy encounters that result in minor damage can leave the PCs with only a dozen MDC or less, and the next "Easy" encounter may well kill them.

It makes players be more creative, more cautious, and more skilled as role-players.

[cyberdon]

To me, this is how Rifts is SUPPOSED to be played.
Unlike other RPGs like D&D, in Rifts (for most characters) your armor is your life, and it cannot be repaired cheaply and easily.
You don't get to take a nap and drink a potion after every battle; you have to find an armor shop, and you have to shell out cash for repairs (not to mention more ammunition).

Hear hear.

Yeah, it started me thinking about just how MUCH treasure there was in d&d land: practically every room and mountain is overflowing with it.

In Rifts, you gotta have skills to survive!

[ShadowLogan]

Unlike other RPGs like D&D, in Rifts (for most characters) your armor is your life, and it cannot be repaired cheaply and easily.

I agree with the principle, but I do think Palladium's prices in some areas (ex. EBA/body armor) tend to be over priced because depending on how much damage you take it's actually cheaper to buy a new suit than get one repaired (obviously we're talking major damage here) which doesn't seem to be the case when you take your suit of Power Armor or other heavy platform ('bot/vehicle) in for repairs.

[cyberdon]

Yeah. I am going to reduce the prices considerably.

[eliakon]

Unlike other RPGs like D&D, in Rifts (for most characters) your armor is your life, and it cannot be repaired cheaply and easily.

I agree with the principle, but I do think Palladium's prices in some areas (ex. EBA/body armor) tend to be over priced because depending on how much damage you take it's actually cheaper to buy a new suit than get one repaired (obviously we're talking major damage here) which doesn't seem to be the case when you take your suit of Power Armor or other heavy platform ('bot/vehicle) in for repairs.

That makes sense to me though.
How are you 'repairing' this?
Think about it. You cant just 'fix' a piece of ceramic or plastic. You can't remelt superalloys that are spun out in microgravity...
you have to disassemble things and replace entire slabs...
...after a certain point it IS going to be cheaper to get a new suit that was made at the factory than take apart an old one, remove all the damaged components, replace them all, then test everything again.
(EBA for example has layers and layers of stuff like thermal insulation and radiation shielding... if you puncture one of those you don't want to just 'plug up the hole')

It is just like car repairs. Simple stuff is cheap... but it can add up to more than the car is worth (how many people have been in an accident where your car was totaled by the insurance... but you could still drive the car around? Same idea here)

[TagsPB]

Unlike other RPGs like D&D, in Rifts (for most characters) your armor is your life, and it cannot be repaired cheaply and easily.

I agree with the principle, but I do think Palladium's prices in some areas (ex. EBA/body armor) tend to be over priced because depending on how much damage you take it's actually cheaper to buy a new suit than get one repaired (obviously we're talking major damage here) which doesn't seem to be the case when you take your suit of Power Armor or other heavy platform ('bot/vehicle) in for repairs.

Much like car repairs in the real world, sometimes it's cheaper and smarter to buy a new one instead of fixing what you have.

And I doubt those fancy armours have insurance on them to help cover the costs.

[flatline]

Even if repairing armor is cheap, when you're out adventuring, you might have several encounters before you get a chance to repair. This is the primary reason that every group I played with eventually gravitated to magic users and/or characters with natural MDC.

Credits, or lack thereof, was not usually the issue.

--flatline

[Mlp7029]

My experience in our group mirrors Flatline's. Every player in our group has either a magical or psionic force field type defense.

[taalismn]

[
That makes sense to me though.
How are you 'repairing' this?
Think about it. You cant just 'fix' a piece of ceramic or plastic. You can't remelt superalloys that are spun out in microgravity...
you have to disassemble things and replace entire slabs...
...after a certain point it IS going to be cheaper to get a new suit that was made at the factory than take apart an old one, remove all the damaged components, replace them all, then test everything again.
(EBA for example has layers and layers of stuff like thermal insulation and radiation shielding... if you puncture one of those you don't want to just 'plug up the hole')

It is just like car repairs. Simple stuff is cheap... but it can add up to more than the car is worth (how many people have been in an accident where your car was totaled by the insurance... but you could still drive the car around? Same idea here)

Total agreement here...An armor manufactory might have a sophisticated multi-million credit single-step processor that stamps out a brand new suit in only minutes, with the prepared materials, and the electronics molded into the interior. A repair shop in the field, beyond doing a Bondo-style trowel-slap-and-fill that is not going to have anywhere near the same quality and replacement MDC, will have to painstakingly pry apart the armor, match the composition and alignment of composite fibers, or, as mentioned, carefully re-melt the alloys, and precision-fit new material in place, provided the materials are on hand in the first place. You're paying for labor, and even if the ship has a robot system that does all that, you're paying for the machine costs.

And yeah, I got my car side-butted by an SUV and dented...car works just fine, but what I thought would be a simple dent-pull-and-polish turned out to really be over 2,000 dollars or work with both doors on that side having to be replaced along with an internal frame...fortunately the other guy fessed up and his insurance will pay for it...but it;s a perfect RL example of what eliakon's saying here.

[Killer Cyborg]

Unlike other RPGs like D&D, in Rifts (for most characters) your armor is your life, and it cannot be repaired cheaply and easily.

I agree with the principle, but I do think Palladium's prices in some areas (ex. EBA/body armor) tend to be over priced because depending on how much damage you take it's actually cheaper to buy a new suit than get one repaired (obviously we're talking major damage here) which doesn't seem to be the case when you take your suit of Power Armor or other heavy platform ('bot/vehicle) in for repairs.

Much like car repairs in the real world, sometimes it's cheaper and smarter to buy a new one instead of fixing what you have.

And I doubt those fancy armours have insurance on them to help cover the costs.

Pretty much this.

In the really-real world, it's not hard to total a car--to cause a situation in which it's cheaper to buy a new car than to repair the old one.
It only makes sense that it'd be the same with armor, especially ceramic and/or metal composites.
Cermet is tricky to make, and requires special equipment. Repairing it is more complicated.

[Killer Cyborg]

My experience in our group mirrors Flatline's. Every player in our group has either a magical or psionic force field type defense.

This is one of the strengths of magic and psionics.
But it's one of those "nice work, if you can get it" deals.

[Blue_Lion]

Unlike other RPGs like D&D, in Rifts (for most characters) your armor is your life, and it cannot be repaired cheaply and easily.

I agree with the principle, but I do think Palladium's prices in some areas (ex. EBA/body armor) tend to be over priced because depending on how much damage you take it's actually cheaper to buy a new suit than get one repaired (obviously we're talking major damage here) which doesn't seem to be the case when you take your suit of Power Armor or other heavy platform ('bot/vehicle) in for repairs.

That makes sense to me though.
How are you 'repairing' this?
Think about it. You cant just 'fix' a piece of ceramic or plastic. You can't remelt superalloys that are spun out in microgravity...
you have to disassemble things and replace entire slabs...
...after a certain point it IS going to be cheaper to get a new suit that was made at the factory than take apart an old one, remove all the damaged components, replace them all, then test everything again.
(EBA for example has layers and layers of stuff like thermal insulation and radiation shielding... if you puncture one of those you don't want to just 'plug up the hole')

It is just like car repairs. Simple stuff is cheap... but it can add up to more than the car is worth (how many people have been in an accident where your car was totaled by the insurance... but you could still drive the car around? Same idea here)

I am wondering where does it say that mdc armor is spun out in microgravity, seams without anti gravity tech that would be hard to make that armor in rifts. Or that EBA is layers and layers of stuff.
As I know there is a can spray that can by the book just patch a hole in EBA, it has me wondering is this statement based on what the book says or what you think it is.

[Proseksword]

I divide ammo & repair prices by ten in my games. It's simply unrealistic to consider anyone being able to stay awash in the hundreds of thousands of credits necessary to repair anything otherwise. Even then, staying equipped can be a significant challenge, particularly due to the difficulty that comes with finding a supplier out in the wilderness, but without such changes operating as an independent mercenary or knight errant as most character classes is financially impossible. With the list repair costs, there's no way anyone could be an independent power armor operator or 'Borg merc - your first or second fight would bankrupt you.

[Killer Cyborg]

I divide ammo & repair prices by ten in my games. It's simply unrealistic to consider anyone being able to stay awash in the hundreds of thousands of credits necessary to repair anything otherwise. Even then, staying equipped can be a significant challenge, particularly due to the difficulty that comes with finding a supplier out in the wilderness, but without such changes operating as an independent mercenary or knight errant as most character classes is financially impossible. With the list repair costs, there's no way anyone could be an independent power armor operator or 'Borg merc - your first or second fight would bankrupt you.

None of our party members really ever went bankrupt, and we used book proves.
So it's perfectly possible.

[cyberdon]

100 credits per MD is what I've settled upon.

[ShadowLogan]

Think about it. You cant just 'fix' a piece of ceramic or plastic. You can't remelt superalloys that are spun out in microgravity...
you have to disassemble things and replace entire slabs...

Text specifies "This is the patching and replacement of mega-damge material." (SB1o pg55, for both Body Armor and Power Armor/man-size 'bots, and is used on the next page for Robot vehicles. And MercOps has Naruni metallic bondo foam for repairs (pg117 "Metal-Spray"). So they must have developed methods to "patch" plate, chain, composite armor, plastic, and padded materials avoiding the need to replace entire slabs by RAW (outside of RAW sure, but by RAW...).

The cost does not include subsystems (like radiation shielding, life support, etc), since the SB1 rates do not specify EBA level armor, just body armor. I also just assume the radiation shielding and temperature shielding is a function of the material, not an extra. Life Support/computer functions are not considered either in repair costs, those I assume are handled separately (given optics and such are handled separately in PA and 'bots) and aren't even mentioned.

Total agreement here...An armor manufactory might have a sophisticated multi-million credit single-step processor that stamps out a brand new suit in only minutes, with the prepared materials, and the electronics molded into the interior. A repair shop in the field, beyond doing a Bondo-style trowel-slap-and-fill that is not going to have anywhere near the same quality and replacement MDC, will have to painstakingly pry apart the armor, match the composition and alignment of composite fibers, or, as mentioned, carefully re-melt the alloys, and precision-fit new material in place, provided the materials are on hand in the first place. You're paying for labor, and even if the ship has a robot system that does all that, you're paying for the machine costs.

However, with varying body types it makes more sense that the armor would be modular to allow for better fits because it can't be one size fits all (well it could be, but you'd need ways to adjust it). Not to mention if repairs and maintenance are expected it will be designed for such. I would also think one would have engineered in features to be exploitable by medic teams to get at injuries easily to (trying to cut open the material probably would take longer than just popping a few seals/tabs to disconnect).

It is just like car repairs. Simple stuff is cheap... but it can add up to more than the car is worth (how many people have been in an accident where your car was totaled by the insurance... but you could still drive the car around? Same idea here)

Car repairs can be deceptive though. First a new (actual, not used) car loses value pretty quickly from time of purchase regardless of how much it gets used. A car is also closer in my mind to looking at power armor and other heavy vehicles, not EBA or other body armors given the complexity involved. Labor cost for repairs also has to be considered, but no repair times or raw materials cost (for DIYers with the proper skills/equipment) are provided either so we can't even estimate that.

[eliakon]

Unlike other RPGs like D&D, in Rifts (for most characters) your armor is your life, and it cannot be repaired cheaply and easily.

I agree with the principle, but I do think Palladium's prices in some areas (ex. EBA/body armor) tend to be over priced because depending on how much damage you take it's actually cheaper to buy a new suit than get one repaired (obviously we're talking major damage here) which doesn't seem to be the case when you take your suit of Power Armor or other heavy platform ('bot/vehicle) in for repairs.

That makes sense to me though.
How are you 'repairing' this?
Think about it. You cant just 'fix' a piece of ceramic or plastic. You can't remelt superalloys that are spun out in microgravity...
you have to disassemble things and replace entire slabs...
...after a certain point it IS going to be cheaper to get a new suit that was made at the factory than take apart an old one, remove all the damaged components, replace them all, then test everything again.
(EBA for example has layers and layers of stuff like thermal insulation and radiation shielding... if you puncture one of those you don't want to just 'plug up the hole')

It is just like car repairs. Simple stuff is cheap... but it can add up to more than the car is worth (how many people have been in an accident where your car was totaled by the insurance... but you could still drive the car around? Same idea here)

I am wondering where does it say that mdc armor is spun out in microgravity, seams without anti gravity tech that would be hard to make that armor in rifts. Or that EBA is layers and layers of stuff.
As I know there is a can spray that can by the book just patch a hole in EBA, it has me wondering is this statement based on what the book says or what you think it is.

Microgravity is probably not a requirement, but the Triax book does talk about how the various MDC materials use special nano-technology and several books talk about how the various MDC materials have special properties that make them hard to replicate and work with.
And EBA HAS to have layers. It has radiation shielding, and thermal insulation... That is sort of by definition a layer since the material itself provides neither.

And yes, there is a spray can of 'bondo'
That does not mean that it is a 'repair' anymore than bondo on a wrecked car is a repair.

Though I guess it is possible that there are no parts and layers to EBA.
Just like it is possible to assume that there are no parts or subcomponents to Power Armor or Robots since there is no mention of them in the books...

[dragonfett]

The way I see it is the point that which EBA is more expensive to repair than to buy a new suit of, is the point at which the environmental layers are damaged.

[Blue_Lion]

I divide ammo & repair prices by ten in my games. It's simply unrealistic to consider anyone being able to stay awash in the hundreds of thousands of credits necessary to repair anything otherwise. Even then, staying equipped can be a significant challenge, particularly due to the difficulty that comes with finding a supplier out in the wilderness, but without such changes operating as an independent mercenary or knight errant as most character classes is financially impossible. With the list repair costs, there's no way anyone could be an independent power armor operator or 'Borg merc - your first or second fight would bankrupt you.

None of our party members really ever went bankrupt, and we used book proves.
So it's perfectly possible.

Well it really depends on how much the GM has them making per job. The idea that they have to pay 10s of thousands in repairs for even minor damage means they will require getting paid and amount that can afford it.If they get paid a few K per job then the GM created a non sustainable economy. The pay the adventure gets need to take what it cost for them to stay in business into account. In a merc unit the pay the individual gets may be low but the unit absorbs most basic repairs.

Personally I have a house rule to allow salvage from destroyed foes to be used to get parts to do the repairs or be traded for them. 10% of the units value without salvage skill and 25% with salvage skill. so if the enemies armor was worth say 35K then the parts you can recover to repair your armor are worth 3.5K without salvage skill and 8.75 K with the skill. For me the price in source book 1 is what you pay to have some one do the repairs and the price in the operator write up are if you do the repairs yourself.

[Axelmania]

I think mages knowing the level 5 spell Mend the Broken (FoM 138 BoM 108, not on RUE 209) would play a large role in this economy. Anybody who knew it could park themselves near a ley line and rack up the bucks pretty quickly by buying damaged armor cheap and selling repaired armor at full price.

the inability to fix electronic/software probably means one that is lost on armor that you need a specialist to fix it, which probably includes a lot of features from environmental body armor, though I can't remember what rules exist on how much MDC you lose before those begin to fail.

Armor below 20% can't benefit so anyone wanting to use the Mend the Broken route would first need to find someone else like an Operator or Men-Rall Tek-Master to bring it up to 20% if it had dropped below.

For that reason, economically speaking it should not be a straight X credits per MDC. It should cost more to get MDC repaired that is below 20% since it removes mages from the free market.

I would say a simple 1:2 ratio. Either halve the cost of MDC from 20-100% or double the cost of MDC from 0-20%.

Since there is more competition for the 20+ % market, you could have people paying high fees to operators to bring the armor there, and then taking it to a mage to get it the rest of the way. The higher demand for brink restoration should increase the fees, but force operators to be more competitive and offer discounts for repairing above 20% to avoid losing business to the Broken-Menders.

[Blue_Lion]

Unlike other RPGs like D&D, in Rifts (for most characters) your armor is your life, and it cannot be repaired cheaply and easily.

I agree with the principle, but I do think Palladium's prices in some areas (ex. EBA/body armor) tend to be over priced because depending on how much damage you take it's actually cheaper to buy a new suit than get one repaired (obviously we're talking major damage here) which doesn't seem to be the case when you take your suit of Power Armor or other heavy platform ('bot/vehicle) in for repairs.

That makes sense to me though.
How are you 'repairing' this?
Think about it. You cant just 'fix' a piece of ceramic or plastic. You can't remelt superalloys that are spun out in microgravity...
you have to disassemble things and replace entire slabs...
...after a certain point it IS going to be cheaper to get a new suit that was made at the factory than take apart an old one, remove all the damaged components, replace them all, then test everything again.
(EBA for example has layers and layers of stuff like thermal insulation and radiation shielding... if you puncture one of those you don't want to just 'plug up the hole')

It is just like car repairs. Simple stuff is cheap... but it can add up to more than the car is worth (how many people have been in an accident where your car was totaled by the insurance... but you could still drive the car around? Same idea here)

I am wondering where does it say that mdc armor is spun out in microgravity, seams without anti gravity tech that would be hard to make that armor in rifts. Or that EBA is layers and layers of stuff.
As I know there is a can spray that can by the book just patch a hole in EBA, it has me wondering is this statement based on what the book says or what you think it is.

Microgravity is probably not a requirement, but the Triax book does talk about how the various MDC materials use special nano-technology and several books talk about how the various MDC materials have special properties that make them hard to replicate and work with.
And EBA HAS to have layers. It has radiation shielding, and thermal insulation... That is sort of by definition a layer since the material itself provides neither.

And yes, there is a spray can of 'bondo'
That does not mean that it is a 'repair' anymore than bondo on a wrecked car is a repair.

Though I guess it is possible that there are no parts and layers to EBA.
Just like it is possible to assume that there are no parts or subcomponents to Power Armor or Robots since there is no mention of them in the books...

The special properties could be the thermal and radiation resistance so multi layers may not be required. If one layer provides it there is no reason to have lots of micro layers. There are clearly parts such as helmets and gloves. Sub copents may not take damage unless the mdc is depleted. That does not change the fact that some armor may be primarily just a plate that resists damage and penetration of heat and radiation.

[Killer Cyborg]

Armor being complex and difficult to repair would make sense in combination with the book prices.
Armor being simple and easy to repair would not make sense in combination with the book prices.

We can look at the above two facts, and we can pick our point of view from there:
a) Armor is complex and difficult to repair, that's why the prices are as high as they are.
b) Armor is easy to repair, and the prices are stupid.

But the prices are what they are, and I see no real merit in picking a point of view that leaves one dissatisfied not only with the rules of the game, but also with the intelligence of those who wrote the rules.

[flatline]

I like that the game makes armor relatively expensive to repair. It encourages players to find solutions other than standing there and taking damage.

However, it's your game and the books only contain ideas and suggestions for how to run your game. If you want to adjust the balance one way or the other to achieve the game you desire, do it.

I almost always played magic users, but I also always wore armor. And I usually had multiple suits of armor so that if one set took some damage, I could switch into another set when the moment allowed.

--flatine

[RockJock]

Most games I've played had an Operator, or some kind of fill in who did behind the scenes repair work. Then sitting by the campfire putting a salvaged plate on the Juicer's armor to repair it from the last battle. We always scavenged armor parts. Flavor wise that would be taking the shoulder pauldron off armor X to fix armor Y. Easiest with like suits( X and Y are both Plastic Man armor), and harder the farther apart the salvage and the suit being worked on are. So if there are parts of 6 salvaged Plastic Man suits, and you wear Huntsman you might be switching to Plastic Man. Anyway, using salvaged parts and "free" labor the suits would be significantly cheaper to fix. For the car analogy this is getting parts from the salvage yard, and having your friend, the professional mechanic fix it.

Just the way we always handled it.

As for Mercs, if you are really worried about it have armor repair as part of the paycheck. A town, or the Black Market having their Operator repair your suit and recharge your e-clips is cheaper than paying you enough to have it done elsewhere. Same goes for things like basic food and accommodations.

[eliakon]

Honestly the high cost of "overhead" in Rifts was one of the things I LIKED.
It made the mercenary trade set up actually make sense...
...in that to survive and profit mercenaries either had to be good, lucky, or new.
And that neatly explained to me one of the reasons that there WAS a mercenary trade. I.e. that it requires a certain kind of skill to manage combat in an affordable way and that was why there was a profession for that. Not everyone can afford the kind of learning curve needed and thus you just hire the experts instead of training them.

[glitterboy2098]

Armor being complex and difficult to repair would make sense in combination with the book prices.
Armor being simple and easy to repair would not make sense in combination with the book prices.

We can look at the above two facts, and we can pick our point of view from there:
a) Armor is complex and difficult to repair, that's why the prices are as high as they are.
b) Armor is easy to repair, and the prices are stupid.

But the prices are what they are, and I see no real merit in picking a point of view that leaves one dissatisfied not only with the rules of the game, but also with the intelligence of those who wrote the rules.

repair of armor would be both complex and simple.. and neither really would have an effect on the pricing. elegant.

lets say you have a suit of body armor. it has taken damage, but hasn't had its MDC completely depleted. this means that, in actuality, it has had divots blasted out of it, furrows where blades and claws have sliced it, melted, burned, and heat damage sections.

how do you repair something like this? two options.

you can do it the complex way, where you cut away the really damaged parts and put in fills and patches of fresh material for those sections, melded at the edges to replace the original and preserve the protective qualities. a lot of effort requiring skilled work and a lot of suitable raw materials.

or you can do it the simple way.. armor would be in sections, attached to an underlayer. a section with a lot of damage can be replaced by a new intact one, which would just require the connecting parts and any electronic, plumbing, and other suit wide systems to be spliced together. this is something that could be done fairly simply.. but requires you have a supply of suitable new parts on hand, from a compatible manufacturer in the right sizes, protective ratings, connective points.

in both cases the person doing the repairing has to have the right tools and materials on hand, tools and materials that are not going to be cheap.

really, the thing that really needs to be done is to clarify what happens when a repair fails.. is the suit totally ruined? is it partially repaired, but suffer penalties or reduced protection because of the botched or shoddy repair?

[guardiandashi]

urk
you know looking back at my biggest long running campaign I was in we never really considered "repairs" of course a lot of the time the players characters usually didn't need a lot of repairs (we massacred) the cs, or splugorth that we were fighting and often so badly they never even had a real chance to call for help or reinforcements before they were dead. (when you are 1-2 shotting samas pilots by decapitating them... it sucks to be them) and by the time that it would have started to be an issue, the characters usually had a combination of multiple suits, natural or tech shields, and or significant manufacturing resources, or were sales reps for arms dealing companies (aka pulling a "trader Joe" ) at which point repairs and resupply wasn't really a major issue.

like the time my character went to build something and the gm told me as a plot point that I couldn't because I was more or less out of raw materials. Why was I out of raw materials? because my character had not set up the parameters on the autofactory correctly, she had told it to make shemarrian railgun ammo, but neglected to set a run size, and/or quantity limit, so the factory started making ammo, and the character got distracted and when she came back, it had produced approximately 100 million rounds (note these were the full flechette "shell" rounds not the flechettes themselves) which had more or less depleted her whole stock of the materials that go into those railgun rounds (essentially shotgun shells) needless to say even working at it she figured she would not be able to deplete that supply of ammo for .... years.

[Axelmania]

The one thing I don't like about the repair fees in the book is they don't appear to distinguish between environmental and non-environmental armor. Environmental armor should be more expensive to repair since it's more complex. That should apply even with normal repairs, and certainly when taking into account Mend the Broken's inability to deal with electronics, which decreases competition for offering low prices.

The main problem is that the rates we're given look like they were just taken from the armor classes in PF with little consideration toward how armor is in Rifts...

700 for plate, 550 for chain, 650 for composite, 630 for plastic, 620 for padded...

It's slightly modern because of the composite/plastic additions but the padded/chain/plate still smacks of PF. Armor isn't even always clearly categorized as one of these things.

With repair rates getting so critical, I think it would be useful for Palladium to publish a guide to every suit of armor they ever published and categorize it it as chain (H550) padded (A620) plastic (S630) composite (O650) or plate (T700)

the only thing that's simple is power armor at a fixed 800 for the main body, and given how many are nuclear and how cheap naruni force fields are, they would always seem the best long-term investment

Bots remain pricey as always at 4000/per. You could actually buy a new full suit of MDC armor for less than that.

Quality Used Weapons & Armor (Vampire Kingdoms building 87 in Ciudad Juarez Highlights - Old North Town, page 89 in VK, page 169 of Revised gave it the title "The Armor Warehouse") sets some precidents for cheapness. Originally it was 60% off for 50% MDC, revised keeps it at 60% off but says the MDC ranges from 50 to 70 %.

This is the highest price discount I've seen, other stores offer more MDC but never as much as 60% off.

The cheapest I've ever seen armor is 5000 credits base. 60% off is 2000 credits.

For that you can get...
1) Mastica full suit plate armor (Mindwerks 60) 50-70% of its 30 MDC would be 15 to 21 MDC.
2) Light Tactical Armor (Merc Ops 109) 50-70% of its 6 MDC would be 3 to 4.2 MDC.

The Mastica armor is a better deal for more MDC, but while a weight is not listed I'd imagine it's far heavier than the 6 pounds of the LTA. Both armors have "plate" so it might be the most expensive fee, though you could argue 630 instead of 700 for the LTA since its plates are plastic. Since it is a "polymer" that sounds similar to composite so I'd say 650, which seems like a fair compromise.

I'd love a full list of all the chain MDC armor that exists out there. I would always want to be getting that armor since it's the cheapest to repair. I know Mystic Kuznya can make it, but in terms of modern mass-produced, particularly environmental armors, I don't know much chain. Closest in the main seems to be the Gladiator ("fiber armor that resembles chain mail") and Crusader ("the chain mail like MDC fiber") in both cases it's merely resemblance/likeness though, not true chain, so it may only apply to repairing ancient non-environmental MDC chainmails.

[guardiandashi]

The one thing I don't like about the repair fees in the book is they don't appear to distinguish between environmental and non-environmental armor. Environmental armor should be more expensive to repair since it's more complex. That should apply even with normal repairs, and certainly when taking into account Mend the Broken's inability to deal with electronics, which decreases competition for offering low prices.

The main problem is that the rates we're given look like they were just taken from the armor classes in PF with little consideration toward how armor is in Rifts...

700 for plate, 550 for chain, 650 for composite, 630 for plastic, 620 for padded...

It's slightly modern because of the composite/plastic additions but the padded/chain/plate still smacks of PF. Armor isn't even always clearly categorized as one of these things.

With repair rates getting so critical, I think it would be useful for Palladium to publish a guide to every suit of armor they ever published and categorize it it as chain (H550) padded (A620) plastic (S630) composite (O650) or plate (T700)

the only thing that's simple is power armor at a fixed 800 for the main body, and given how many are nuclear and how cheap naruni force fields are, they would always seem the best long-term investment

Bots remain pricey as always at 4000/per. You could actually buy a new full suit of MDC armor for less than that.

Quality Used Weapons & Armor (Vampire Kingdoms building 87 in Ciudad Juarez Highlights - Old North Town, page 89 in VK, page 169 of Revised gave it the title "The Armor Warehouse") sets some precidents for cheapness. Originally it was 60% off for 50% MDC, revised keeps it at 60% off but says the MDC ranges from 50 to 70 %.

This is the highest price discount I've seen, other stores offer more MDC but never as much as 60% off.

The cheapest I've ever seen armor is 5000 credits base. 60% off is 2000 credits.

For that you can get...
1) Mastica full suit plate armor (Mindwerks 60) 50-70% of its 30 MDC would be 15 to 21 MDC.
2) Light Tactical Armor (Merc Ops 109) 50-70% of its 6 MDC would be 3 to 4.2 MDC.

The Mastica armor is a better deal for more MDC, but while a weight is not listed I'd imagine it's far heavier than the 6 pounds of the LTA. Both armors have "plate" so it might be the most expensive fee, though you could argue 630 instead of 700 for the LTA since its plates are plastic. Since it is a "polymer" that sounds similar to composite so I'd say 650, which seems like a fair compromise.

I'd love a full list of all the chain MDC armor that exists out there. I would always want to be getting that armor since it's the cheapest to repair. I know Mystic Kuznya can make it, but in terms of modern mass-produced, particularly environmental armors, I don't know much chain. Closest in the main seems to be the Gladiator ("fiber armor that resembles chain mail") and Crusader ("the chain mail like MDC fiber") in both cases it's merely resemblance/likeness though, not true chain, so it may only apply to repairing ancient non-environmental MDC chainmails.

polymer is NOT composite its plastic.

what I would do honestly is go through the armors and define them as what they are based on description and pictures.
chain (H550)
padded (A620)
plastic (S630)
composite (O650)
plate (T700)

for example most of the mdc cloth armors like plainclothes and the like would fall under cloth/padded to me
plasticman would obviously be plastic
bushman and most coalition stuff would be plate/composite
gladiator would be a mixture of plate/chain depending on what was damaged also a lot of it would fall under composite
etc.

[kaid]

And I'm enjoying it.

Here it is:

Lack o' credits.

MDC armour is expensive to maintain, and the mercenary job the party just completed in my campaign has left them seriously in the red. Indeedy, the damage they took during the mission -which now needs to be repaired- far outweighs the pay they're receiving.

It's cool. They group is now getting worried they'll eventually find themselves trying to survive on the mean streets o' Free Quebec.

This' a whole new, welcome dimension to the game.

My advice to gms? Never hand wave the need for cash in game.

This is why armor like plastic man exists. Sometimes your stuff breaks and you are out in the boonies and are either broke or simply stuff like plastic man is all that is available.

This is one reason I am never to worried if somebody has some uber armor/weapon. Generally attrition breaks all of the toys eventually and you wind up using whatever you can get your hands on.

[Axelmania]

Unless of course the uber-armor has a force field (regenerating MDC) or is one of those ones like Nazca armor where it has regenerating MDC from magic or something.

[taalismn]

"Now, the question we need to decide tonight is 'which party member can we afford to sell off to afford body armor repairs for the rest of us?'"

[Axelmania]

One thing I just noticed, Rifts Sourcebook 55 / Sourcebook One Revised 36 mentions that Northern Gun usually charges 10% less for body armor repair, so creds/MDC would be reduced to:

chain 495
padded 558
plastic 567
composite 585
plate 630
PA/man-size bots 720
Robot Vehicles 3600

[Nekira Sudacne]

I divide ammo & repair prices by ten in my games. It's simply unrealistic to consider anyone being able to stay awash in the hundreds of thousands of credits necessary to repair anything otherwise. Even then, staying equipped can be a significant challenge, particularly due to the difficulty that comes with finding a supplier out in the wilderness, but without such changes operating as an independent mercenary or knight errant as most character classes is financially impossible. With the list repair costs, there's no way anyone could be an independent power armor operator or 'Borg merc - your first or second fight would bankrupt you.

None of our party members really ever went bankrupt, and we used book proves.
So it's perfectly possible.

As I recall, after a lot of eairly fatalities, your group learned to simply take great pains to avoid taking damage in general whenever and however possible to stay alive.

which had the added benefit of keeping the repair budget low

[kaid]

I divide ammo & repair prices by ten in my games. It's simply unrealistic to consider anyone being able to stay awash in the hundreds of thousands of credits necessary to repair anything otherwise. Even then, staying equipped can be a significant challenge, particularly due to the difficulty that comes with finding a supplier out in the wilderness, but without such changes operating as an independent mercenary or knight errant as most character classes is financially impossible. With the list repair costs, there's no way anyone could be an independent power armor operator or 'Borg merc - your first or second fight would bankrupt you.

None of our party members really ever went bankrupt, and we used book proves.
So it's perfectly possible.

As I recall, after a lot of eairly fatalities, your group learned to simply take great pains to avoid taking damage in general whenever and however possible to stay alive.

which had the added benefit of keeping the repair budget low

Also if you are a merc group and trying to offset costs of combat you wind up with some sharp shooters doing a lot of aimed shots. It is cheaper to just replace helmets than full body armor.

[Killer Cyborg]

I divide ammo & repair prices by ten in my games. It's simply unrealistic to consider anyone being able to stay awash in the hundreds of thousands of credits necessary to repair anything otherwise. Even then, staying equipped can be a significant challenge, particularly due to the difficulty that comes with finding a supplier out in the wilderness, but without such changes operating as an independent mercenary or knight errant as most character classes is financially impossible. With the list repair costs, there's no way anyone could be an independent power armor operator or 'Borg merc - your first or second fight would bankrupt you.

None of our party members really ever went bankrupt, and we used book proves.
So it's perfectly possible.

As I recall, after a lot of eairly fatalities, your group learned to simply take great pains to avoid taking damage in general whenever and however possible to stay alive.

which had the added benefit of keeping the repair budget low

Correct.


(OR we figured out that we needed to avoid damage to keep the repair budget low, and that had the benefit of keeping us alive. Kinda worked both ways.)

[Killer Cyborg]

Also if you are a merc group and trying to offset costs of combat you wind up with some sharp shooters doing a lot of aimed shots. It is cheaper to just replace helmets than full body armor.

Yup.
We did a lot of headshots early on. It was more effective before Palladium gave each part of the armor its own MDC, because we figured that if the armor had something like 60 MDC total, then the helmet had to be around 10-12 MDC.
When the numbers came out, and helmets often had nearly as much MDC as the Main Body, we didn't go for headshots as often. We DID go for arms and legs more often.

[Hotrod]

This is one of the reasons I liked having a character who could make or replenish his/her own armor. Tailoring, skin/prepare animals, a vibro knife, and a Wilk's laser torch can work wonders with monster hides.

[kaid]

Also if you are a merc group and trying to offset costs of combat you wind up with some sharp shooters doing a lot of aimed shots. It is cheaper to just replace helmets than full body armor.

Yup.
We did a lot of headshots early on. It was more effective before Palladium gave each part of the armor its own MDC, because we figured that if the armor had something like 60 MDC total, then the helmet had to be around 10-12 MDC.
When the numbers came out, and helmets often had nearly as much MDC as the Main Body, we didn't go for headshots as often. We DID go for arms and legs more often.

Yup blow somebodies hand or foot off and they are probably incapacitated for the fight and you can take them prisoner and take the armor off at a later point. You don't have to kill everything capturing or maiming can work just as well for most purposes.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

Re: the "you cant just repair it" topic...

I wouldn't say that that is true, necessarily. The sensitive electronics and stuff are almost assuredly on the innermost layer, or even in the sealed suit the armor plating is attached to.

As long as your armor isn't SO damaged that it has holes in it, the electronics are probably OK. Same with the environmental seal.

As for using the MDC bondo type repair or other repair - i almost see it as similar to how ship hulls are built/repaired in the Honor Harrington universe.

Basically, when a ship hull gets damage (and they have meters-thick armor plating) they simply put more of the hull material in the hole (after cutting it to be a regular shape), and use what is essentially an advanced welder that weakens the molecular bonds along the edges and then re-fuses them together, molecularly bonded.

Id envision repairs of ablative MDC armor to be roughly equivalent.

As long as the damage was only to the ablative armor layers, all you need to do is cut the edges of the hole to a regular shape, cut a piece of patch material to match the hole, and fuse it in.

Once the electronics are damaged, though, or enough damage is done that the replacement material and labor is going to exceeed a certain point... yeah, just get a new one.

[Killer Cyborg]

Re: the "you cant just repair it" topic...

I wouldn't say that that is true, necessarily.

All that is necessarily true is that repairs are complex enough that:

a) Body armor repairs are complicated enough that (SB1 55) A good rule of thumb is if the community can provide bionic services or sells robots and/or power armor, they can repair mega-damage armor and robots; not always, bu often. Unfortunately this level of technology are not all that common or easily accessible.
b) Body armor repairs are complicated enough that they cost the amounts listed in the books.

[say652]

And I'm enjoying it.

Here it is:

Lack o' credits.

MDC armour is expensive to maintain, and the mercenary job the party just completed in my campaign has left them seriously in the red. Indeedy, the damage they took during the mission -which now needs to be repaired- far outweighs the pay they're receiving.

It's cool. They group is now getting worried they'll eventually find themselves trying to survive on the mean streets o' Free Quebec.

This' a whole new, welcome dimension to the game.

My advice to gms? Never hand wave the need for cash in game.

As an avid Cyborg Player, This is completely true.
You heal i need to pay for repairs......

Credits are extremely important, never give unlimited Funds.

[taalismn]

[
As an avid Cyborg Player, This is completely true.
You heal i need to pay for repairs......

Credits are extremely important, never give unlimited Funds.

And a cyborg's best chances for making money usually entail more risk, more danger, and more opportunity for taking damage.
It's not as if you can get a gig as a stripper.(well, maybe you could, but it comes off looking more like an auto shop tear-down than anything sexy and enticing).

[say652]

[
As an avid Cyborg Player, This is completely true.
You heal i need to pay for repairs......

Credits are extremely important, never give unlimited Funds.

And a cyborg's best chances for making money usually entail more risk, more danger, and more opportunity for taking damage.
It's not as if you can get a gig as a stripper.(well, maybe you could, but it comes off looking more like an auto shop tear-down than anything sexy and enticing).

Pimp my Cyborg!
No seriously get on the corner Chrome Ho!!

[taalismn]

[
Pimp my Cyborg!
No seriously get on the corner Chrome Ho!!

"Look, you only have to wear the clown fitout for another month."
"But I get docked for damage to it!"
"It's not a high risk job, You shouldn't be taking damage."
"The last 'kid' was a deranged dragon hatchling with an oral fetish! He nearly chewed my nose off! The one before that hauled out a laser pistol and popped me in the shoulder!"
"You have to try not to frighten the kids. They can react poorly to sudden scares"
"HE WAS AIMING FOR MY HEAD! AND THE ONE BEFORE -THAT- WAS A YOUNG ELENTAL FUSIONIST! CASTING FIREBALLS!! FIREBALLS!!!"
"Catering parties is a chance to show our professional cool and restraint. Quit complaining."

[glitterboy2098]

[
As an avid Cyborg Player, This is completely true.
You heal i need to pay for repairs......

Credits are extremely important, never give unlimited Funds.

And a cyborg's best chances for making money usually entail more risk, more danger, and more opportunity for taking damage.
It's not as if you can get a gig as a stripper.(well, maybe you could, but it comes off looking more like an auto shop tear-down than anything sexy and enticing).

Hidden Cyborgs (per the Bionic Sourcebook OCC) could pull it off. those are basically The Major from Ghost in the Shell. bionic inside, human looking outside. Might make the lapdance's dangerous though

[Blue_Lion]

Also if you are a merc group and trying to offset costs of combat you wind up with some sharp shooters doing a lot of aimed shots. It is cheaper to just replace helmets than full body armor.

Yup.
We did a lot of headshots early on. It was more effective before Palladium gave each part of the armor its own MDC, because we figured that if the armor had something like 60 MDC total, then the helmet had to be around 10-12 MDC.
When the numbers came out, and helmets often had nearly as much MDC as the Main Body, we didn't go for headshots as often. We DID go for arms and legs more often.

Yup blow somebodies hand or foot off and they are probably incapacitated for the fight and you can take them prisoner and take the armor off at a later point. You don't have to kill everything capturing or maiming can work just as well for most purposes.

Damn that is just plain evil making them live the rest of their life as a cripple so you can use there gear.

[taalismn]

[Hidden Cyborgs (per the Bionic Sourcebook OCC) could pull it off. those are basically The Major from Ghost in the Shell. bionic inside, human looking outside. Might make the lapdance's dangerous though

The Operator-love there is VERY amusing.