I think you would have trials for car theft, if it was a kingsdale citzen who car is stolen..... but its gonna be pretty fast and not "fair".
The real problem seems like the GMPCs are more important and powerful to the story than the PCs.
You should kill off the gmpc's.... they are cancerous in games 98.2% of the time
Punishment for theft.
Moderators: Immortals, Supreme Beings, Old Ones
Re: Punishment for theft.
Okay, so the vehicle is owned by someone the city of Kingsdale considers an ally, or at least an asset.
It's stolen by Random Adventurer #47658, who then drives it straight into Kingsdale.
The city would, at a minimum, take the vehicle and return it to the owner, using force if necessary. No trial needed.
Since the thief was caught in possession of the vehicle, his sole hope for mercy is the claim that he bought it from someone else (as stated above). If the victim can't ID the thief, then the PC can make social skill-type rolls--two sets are needed, as he'll first need to persuade the magistrates that he's innocent, then do the same with the actual gang (assuming he doesn't want them waiting the next time he steps out behind the bar to take a leak).
If the victim CAN ID the thief, then the PC is borked--the "I bought it" line isn't going to fly. There's three ways I can see this going at this point:
1: The PC tries to claim that the victim actually sold him the vehicle and is now attempting to renege on the deal. This would be dumb, but not necessarily out of character from the player, from what we've seen from the Vomit Helmet Drowning Incident. If he takes this route, let the dice kill him and the new player can either make yet another character, or just save everyone the time wasted on waiting for the vote by walking away from the table.
2: The PC admits guilt, and appeals to the magistrates for mercy. If he goes this route, then a lot will depend on the attitude of the victim, who is likely to demand restitution for the time and trouble (including not only money, but goods and gear as well), and possibly punitive measures such as a lashing. The more obnoxious the PC is about this process, the more likely it is that the victim will demand harsher punishments. Alternately, the PC might be able to get leniency by agreeing to perform some service, gratis, for the Dyssfunctionals (and possibly Kingsdale, as well, especially if the local government are the ones providing the cranial bomb and tracking implants being used to keep the thief in line).
3: The Magistrates opt to just turn the thief over to the Dyssfunctionals and tell them, "Take it outside town." As #2 above, but a lot less formal. Among possible punishments administered by the D's would be dragging the character behind the recovered vehicle, dunking, running the gauntlet... basically, welcome to Buttmonkeyville, Population: You. They will administer this punishment until satisfied. If the thief's allies are reasonably powerful and polite about it, the D's might agree to make sure they don't kill the thief, and just smack him around a lot. that said, he's likely to return to the adventuring life with a new equipment list that reads, "Your birthday suit".
It's stolen by Random Adventurer #47658, who then drives it straight into Kingsdale.
The city would, at a minimum, take the vehicle and return it to the owner, using force if necessary. No trial needed.
Since the thief was caught in possession of the vehicle, his sole hope for mercy is the claim that he bought it from someone else (as stated above). If the victim can't ID the thief, then the PC can make social skill-type rolls--two sets are needed, as he'll first need to persuade the magistrates that he's innocent, then do the same with the actual gang (assuming he doesn't want them waiting the next time he steps out behind the bar to take a leak).
If the victim CAN ID the thief, then the PC is borked--the "I bought it" line isn't going to fly. There's three ways I can see this going at this point:
1: The PC tries to claim that the victim actually sold him the vehicle and is now attempting to renege on the deal. This would be dumb, but not necessarily out of character from the player, from what we've seen from the Vomit Helmet Drowning Incident. If he takes this route, let the dice kill him and the new player can either make yet another character, or just save everyone the time wasted on waiting for the vote by walking away from the table.
2: The PC admits guilt, and appeals to the magistrates for mercy. If he goes this route, then a lot will depend on the attitude of the victim, who is likely to demand restitution for the time and trouble (including not only money, but goods and gear as well), and possibly punitive measures such as a lashing. The more obnoxious the PC is about this process, the more likely it is that the victim will demand harsher punishments. Alternately, the PC might be able to get leniency by agreeing to perform some service, gratis, for the Dyssfunctionals (and possibly Kingsdale, as well, especially if the local government are the ones providing the cranial bomb and tracking implants being used to keep the thief in line).
3: The Magistrates opt to just turn the thief over to the Dyssfunctionals and tell them, "Take it outside town." As #2 above, but a lot less formal. Among possible punishments administered by the D's would be dragging the character behind the recovered vehicle, dunking, running the gauntlet... basically, welcome to Buttmonkeyville, Population: You. They will administer this punishment until satisfied. If the thief's allies are reasonably powerful and polite about it, the D's might agree to make sure they don't kill the thief, and just smack him around a lot. that said, he's likely to return to the adventuring life with a new equipment list that reads, "Your birthday suit".
-
Pepsi Jedi
- Palladin
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- Comment: 24 was the start... We are Legion.
- Location: Northern Gun
Re: Punishment for theft.
Zamion138 wrote:I think you would have trials for car theft, if it was a kingsdale citzen who car is stolen..... but its gonna be pretty fast and not "fair".
The real problem seems like the GMPCs are more important and powerful to the story than the PCs.
You should kill off the gmpc's.... they are cancerous in games 98.2% of the time
The impression is that this is more than a car. (Not that it has to be mind you) It's the "Signature vehicle of a group of NPCs" That sound very much like a group of mercs or a gang.
It didn't 'happen' in Kingsdale. They caught up to him in kingsdale.
People are still worried about fighting off zombies and sploograth slavers and Cannabilistic monster riders. "Lets go to court" over a clear cut case of theft is going to be pretty low on the pole.
As vehicles in rifts, are mostly presented as MDC, and thus costing hundreds of thousands to millions of dollars. This group of "Dyssfunctionals' isn't going to comerunning up and yell for a police officer. They're out to get their 'Signature vehicle' back from the guy that stole hundreds of thousands to millions of dollars from them. Presumeably being said signature vehicle it was likely armed as well so they may have lost people just trying to catch up with the thief.
Had it been street crime inside a modern kingdom. Sure. maybe you go before a judge, but it's not going to be like huge jury trials with scheming lawyers calling out 100s of years of law to justify their arguements and objections.
The very best you could possibly hope for is a frontier type judge (As we envision them from movies) A hour long trial (If not 5 minutes. Guy was caught red handed) and sentancing right there from the bench. And that's for inside the city type crime.
Some guy comes tearing ass for leather into town in a stolen MDC vehicle with a group of Mercs or gang chasing after him isn't going to some how be granted asylum or anything. The cops are goimng to go "We saw you come tearing into town in that thing. These 30 guys claim you stole it. It's painted in their Merc Company colors, (Or gang colors) It's got their name spray painted on it. They have the frigging KEYS for it. You clearly stole it. *Shoves him to the mercs* You're their problem. "
Lt. Nyota Uhura: I'm impressed. For a moment there, I thought you were just a dumb hick who only has sex with farm animals.
James Tiberius Kirk: Well, not _only_...
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taalismn
- Priest
- Posts: 48641
- Joined: Tue Sep 02, 2003 8:19 pm
- Location: Somewhere between Heaven, Hell, and New England
Re: Punishment for theft.
HWalsh wrote:PC: I didn't steal it. Korby sold it to me.
Super-Lawyer: This man stole it! I'm super persuas-
PC: Objection! Heresay.
Super-Lawyer: But-
PC: You have no proof. There's no DMV. You can't prove anything. Oh you have video? Sure. Nice try pal. Anyone can fake this with a suit of plastic man armor. Wait a darn second! This is a criminal trial! Why are you even allowed to be counsel? Shouldn't this fall under the DA? Your honor I ask this be declared a mistrial immediately under the grounds that this lawyer cannot be a lawyer. Furthermore arrest him for using his powers to influence the jury.
Pre-supposing the judge and baliffs aren't in the pocket of the lawyer and his buddies, and that an honest, law-abiding society is in control here. this would work.
Otherwise...well, the PC is pooch-screwed anyway and within his rights to go out guns blazing or stealing the GM's beer.
-------------
"Trouble rather the Tiger in his Lair,
Than the Sage among his Books,
For all the Empires and Kingdoms,
The Armies and Works that you hold Dear,
Are to him but the Playthings of the Moment,
To be turned over with the Flick of a Finger,
And the Turning of a Page"
--------Rudyard Kipling
------------
"Trouble rather the Tiger in his Lair,
Than the Sage among his Books,
For all the Empires and Kingdoms,
The Armies and Works that you hold Dear,
Are to him but the Playthings of the Moment,
To be turned over with the Flick of a Finger,
And the Turning of a Page"
--------Rudyard Kipling
------------
Re: Punishment for theft.
taalismn wrote:HWalsh wrote:PC: I didn't steal it. Korby sold it to me.
Super-Lawyer: This man stole it! I'm super persuas-
PC: Objection! Heresay.
Super-Lawyer: But-
PC: You have no proof. There's no DMV. You can't prove anything. Oh you have video? Sure. Nice try pal. Anyone can fake this with a suit of plastic man armor. Wait a darn second! This is a criminal trial! Why are you even allowed to be counsel? Shouldn't this fall under the DA? Your honor I ask this be declared a mistrial immediately under the grounds that this lawyer cannot be a lawyer. Furthermore arrest him for using his powers to influence the jury.
Pre-supposing the judge and baliffs aren't in the pocket of the lawyer and his buddies, and that an honest, law-abiding society is in control here. this would work.
Otherwise...well, the PC is pooch-screwed anyway and within his rights to go out guns blazing or stealing the GM's beer.
Also to the PC would be using knowledge law something he lacks. He is also meta gaming in a term that would not be common in Rifts.
Conclusion the whole PC augment is meta gaming so the whole defense line would be unusable.-The NPC is a lawyer and a really good one, you really think a person without knowledge law would beat him in a court that the NPC is familiar with that easily or that the lawyer would not know how to ague in court while the PC does.
Lawspeaker calls a witness- PC #2 a principled cyber knight. Did defendant ever tell you how he acquired the vehicle in question?
PC #2 yea he said he stole it.
Lawspeaker- And how did you respond to that?
PC # 2 I told him he needed to return it and apologies to the owner and make and come to some sort of agreement with them.
Lawspeaker- Has the defendant ever tried to steal anything else to your knowledge?
PC #3 Yes he was caught by a arms dealer pocketing E-clips without paying for them, he also was caught helping himself to whisky in a inn.
Do you think you could win over a judge from some one that can convince a pack of vampires to run naked into the sun when the PC has no mind control and a MA of 7? (Think about it a lawyer from HU that talked a group of vampires to run into the sun to die loosing in any court would be a long shot. Awe forget it the hint is lost on you the lawyer has a super power to control minds and a MA of 37.)
Last edited by Blue_Lion on Sat Jun 17, 2017 4:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The Clones are coming you shall all be replaced, but who is to say you have not been replaced already.
Master of Type-O and the obvios.
Soon my army oc clones and winged-monkies will rule the world but first, must .......
I may debate canon and RAW, but the games I run are highly house ruled. So I am not debating for how I play but about how the system works as written.
Master of Type-O and the obvios.
Soon my army oc clones and winged-monkies will rule the world but first, must .......
I may debate canon and RAW, but the games I run are highly house ruled. So I am not debating for how I play but about how the system works as written.
Re: Punishment for theft.
So its an un-winnable situation rail roading him into extreme action that will result in either death/imprisonment/murder. Sounds great.
Re: Punishment for theft.
Pepsi Jedi wrote:Zamion138 wrote:I think you would have trials for car theft, if it was a kingsdale citzen who car is stolen..... but its gonna be pretty fast and not "fair".
The real problem seems like the GMPCs are more important and powerful to the story than the PCs.
You should kill off the gmpc's.... they are cancerous in games 98.2% of the time
The impression is that this is more than a car. (Not that it has to be mind you) It's the "Signature vehicle of a group of NPCs" That sound very much like a group of mercs or a gang.
It didn't 'happen' in Kingsdale. They caught up to him in kingsdale.
People are still worried about fighting off zombies and sploograth slavers and Cannabilistic monster riders. "Lets go to court" over a clear cut case of theft is going to be pretty low on the pole.
As vehicles in rifts, are mostly presented as MDC, and thus costing hundreds of thousands to millions of dollars. This group of "Dyssfunctionals' isn't going to comerunning up and yell for a police officer. They're out to get their 'Signature vehicle' back from the guy that stole hundreds of thousands to millions of dollars from them. Presumeably being said signature vehicle it was likely armed as well so they may have lost people just trying to catch up with the thief.
Had it been street crime inside a modern kingdom. Sure. maybe you go before a judge, but it's not going to be like huge jury trials with scheming lawyers calling out 100s of years of law to justify their arguements and objections.
The very best you could possibly hope for is a frontier type judge (As we envision them from movies) A hour long trial (If not 5 minutes. Guy was caught red handed) and sentancing right there from the bench. And that's for inside the city type crime.
Some guy comes tearing ass for leather into town in a stolen MDC vehicle with a group of Mercs or gang chasing after him isn't going to some how be granted asylum or anything. The cops are goimng to go "We saw you come tearing into town in that thing. These 30 guys claim you stole it. It's painted in their Merc Company colors, (Or gang colors) It's got their name spray painted on it. They have the frigging KEYS for it. You clearly stole it. *Shoves him to the mercs* You're their problem. "
There are only six members of the dysfunctionals, it is a band of heroes not a gang or merc group. They are a rival group of heroes that can at times finished quests that the PCs had taken to long to finish. They also have bailed the party out when the party was in trouble several times.
Last edited by Blue_Lion on Sat Jun 17, 2017 4:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The Clones are coming you shall all be replaced, but who is to say you have not been replaced already.
Master of Type-O and the obvios.
Soon my army oc clones and winged-monkies will rule the world but first, must .......
I may debate canon and RAW, but the games I run are highly house ruled. So I am not debating for how I play but about how the system works as written.
Master of Type-O and the obvios.
Soon my army oc clones and winged-monkies will rule the world but first, must .......
I may debate canon and RAW, but the games I run are highly house ruled. So I am not debating for how I play but about how the system works as written.
Re: Punishment for theft.
Zamion138 wrote:So its an un-winnable situation rail roading him into extreme action that will result in either death/imprisonment/murder. Sounds great.
Yes when he refused to hire a good lawyer he placed himself in a unwinnable situation. Going to court without legal council is near unwinnable, more so when your opponent is an expert. This is a fight he picked and ignored recommendations from the group to get help. (as he never disabled the anti theft, cameras and locator, and the MDC lot he stole from uses security guards and cameras(something that is clearly advertised and he was advised of), the fact he stole it had a 57% of being on camera I rolled a 21 so they had him stealing it on film.
The Clones are coming you shall all be replaced, but who is to say you have not been replaced already.
Master of Type-O and the obvios.
Soon my army oc clones and winged-monkies will rule the world but first, must .......
I may debate canon and RAW, but the games I run are highly house ruled. So I am not debating for how I play but about how the system works as written.
Master of Type-O and the obvios.
Soon my army oc clones and winged-monkies will rule the world but first, must .......
I may debate canon and RAW, but the games I run are highly house ruled. So I am not debating for how I play but about how the system works as written.
Re: Punishment for theft.
Zamion138 wrote:I think you would have trials for car theft, if it was a kingsdale citzen who car is stolen..... but its gonna be pretty fast and not "fair".
The real problem seems like the GMPCs are more important and powerful to the story than the PCs.
You should kill off the gmpc's.... they are cancerous in games 98.2% of the time
They are not more important they are a rival band of heroes that the PCs compete with if your rivals where easy to win against they would be poor motivation. They are also the PCs safety net. Being a PC does not mean every thing has to go your way because you are important.
The Clones are coming you shall all be replaced, but who is to say you have not been replaced already.
Master of Type-O and the obvios.
Soon my army oc clones and winged-monkies will rule the world but first, must .......
I may debate canon and RAW, but the games I run are highly house ruled. So I am not debating for how I play but about how the system works as written.
Master of Type-O and the obvios.
Soon my army oc clones and winged-monkies will rule the world but first, must .......
I may debate canon and RAW, but the games I run are highly house ruled. So I am not debating for how I play but about how the system works as written.
-
eliakon
- Palladin
- Posts: 9093
- Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:40 pm
- Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
- Contact:
Re: Punishment for theft.
Blue_Lion wrote:Zamion138 wrote:So its an un-winnable situation rail roading him into extreme action that will result in either death/imprisonment/murder. Sounds great.
Yes when he refused to hire a good lawyer he placed himself in a unwinnable situation. Going to court without legal council is near unwinnable, more so when your opponent is an expert. This is a fight he picked and ignored recommendations from the group to get help. (as he never disabled the anti theft, cameras and locator, and the MDC lot he stole from uses security guards and cameras(something that is clearly advertised and he was advised of), the fact he stole it had a 57% of being on camera I rolled a 21 so they had him stealing it on film.
There is no "Good lawyer" here
You set him up to automatically fail.
Again.
I am supposing you came here looking for some validation of your actions so that you could then show him that "see the rest of the Palladium Community agrees with me that this is totally legitimate and not some sort of Mary-Sue railroad"
To me, it sounds like two for two cases of GM vs PC.
Which the PC never wins since the GM is omnipotent can just declare a win...
Or head shot you with unseen snipers
Or hit you with automatic death by humiliation grenades
Or bring out lawyers of instant winning
Meh.
The rules are not a bludgeon with which to hammer a character into a game. They are a guide to how a group of friends can get together to weave a collective story that entertains everyone involved. We forget that at our peril.
Edmund Burke wrote:The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
Re: Punishment for theft.
eliakon wrote:Blue_Lion wrote:Zamion138 wrote:So its an un-winnable situation rail roading him into extreme action that will result in either death/imprisonment/murder. Sounds great.
Yes when he refused to hire a good lawyer he placed himself in a unwinnable situation. Going to court without legal council is near unwinnable, more so when your opponent is an expert. This is a fight he picked and ignored recommendations from the group to get help. (as he never disabled the anti theft, cameras and locator, and the MDC lot he stole from uses security guards and cameras(something that is clearly advertised and he was advised of), the fact he stole it had a 57% of being on camera I rolled a 21 so they had him stealing it on film.
There is no "Good lawyer" here
You set him up to automatically fail.
Again.
I am supposing you came here looking for some validation of your actions so that you could then show him that "see the rest of the Palladium Community agrees with me that this is totally legitimate and not some sort of Mary-Sue railroad"
To me, it sounds like two for two cases of GM vs PC.
Which the PC never wins since the GM is omnipotent can just declare a win...
Or head shot you with unseen snipers
Or hit you with automatic death by humiliation grenades
Or bring out lawyers of instant winning
Meh.
Honestly I do not need validation. I am merely providing information that you do not have. What I was looking for was a idea for a punishment that would not remove him from the game. Because he placed himself in a unwinnable situation.
If he would have looked for a lawyer there were three available who would have giving him a fighting chance. He refused to look for help when he would reasonable need it.(Lawspeaker likes winning unwinnable cases and is a defense lawyer first and foremost so would have taken the case so he turned down a chance to hire the other sides lawyer. He turned down a chance to hire a lawyer who was immune to mind control and could have had the case and or evidence thrown out for tampering. There was an adult dragon that loves trials and had the skills/power to win in town.) When a players actions place them outside of what he can deal with on his own I place a tool available to help them win. Not having a defense atterny in trial when you lack the skill in law is like going into a MDC battle in your tighty whities as a SDC creature sure you might win out of shear luck but the odds are you will loose.
Refusing legal counsel in a trial is placing yourself when you going against a top class lawyer is placing yourself in a no win situation.
(The puke grenades was not automatic death there was a easy way to avoid death when his helmet was full of puke the same thing every one else did, remove the helmet to breath. Choosing to keep a helmet full of puke on when you are told you can not breath through the puke, is just ignoring a easily fixed life threatening situation. In years that I have used the grenade no one else has ever died from them, and I do not head shot them when they remove their armor. The grenades are meant to demoralize not humiliate the victim, I have no idea why you think the whole party being hit by them is humiliating. They know the puke is caused by the grenades and magic.)
The Clones are coming you shall all be replaced, but who is to say you have not been replaced already.
Master of Type-O and the obvios.
Soon my army oc clones and winged-monkies will rule the world but first, must .......
I may debate canon and RAW, but the games I run are highly house ruled. So I am not debating for how I play but about how the system works as written.
Master of Type-O and the obvios.
Soon my army oc clones and winged-monkies will rule the world but first, must .......
I may debate canon and RAW, but the games I run are highly house ruled. So I am not debating for how I play but about how the system works as written.
Re: Punishment for theft.
Thats not the info presented, all that was stated is he is going agaist a lawyer that gets strife and magnito level villians off and make vampires walk into the sun.
PCs dont get an auto pass on things I agree . Is this guys first time playing rifts? Anyhow give him the option of a jail break or an assassination attempt on the council hes facing
PCs dont get an auto pass on things I agree . Is this guys first time playing rifts? Anyhow give him the option of a jail break or an assassination attempt on the council hes facing
Re: Punishment for theft.
Blue_Lion wrote:Zamion138 wrote:So its an un-winnable situation rail roading him into extreme action that will result in either death/imprisonment/murder. Sounds great.
Yes when he refused to hire a good lawyer he placed himself in a unwinnable situation. Going to court without legal council is near unwinnable, more so when your opponent is an expert. This is a fight he picked and ignored recommendations from the group to get help. (as he never disabled the anti theft, cameras and locator, and the MDC lot he stole from uses security guards and cameras(something that is clearly advertised and he was advised of), the fact he stole it had a 57% of being on camera I rolled a 21 so they had him stealing it on film.
whats it matter? The lawyer is a literal super hero. Its a kangaroo court. So hiring a lawyer is for what to make you feel better?
Re: Punishment for theft.
Did I not say he refused to hire a good lawyer when urged to by the group. As you do not have all the in formation I can fill in blanks you are missing.Zamion138 wrote:Thats not the info presented, all that was stated is he is going agaist a lawyer that gets strife and magnito level villians off and make vampires walk into the sun.
PCs dont get an auto pass on things I agree . Is this guys first time playing rifts? Anyhow give him the option of a jail break or an assassination attempt on the council hes facing
I was willing to let him hire the council he was facing to defend himself. (that would be a instant win)
I had two other lawyers I wrote up(to help him) with the skills/power to help him win. (I spent seven hours working up ways for him to escape and or have a chance to beat the charges, he chose to go to trail without a lawyer present.)
The Clones are coming you shall all be replaced, but who is to say you have not been replaced already.
Master of Type-O and the obvios.
Soon my army oc clones and winged-monkies will rule the world but first, must .......
I may debate canon and RAW, but the games I run are highly house ruled. So I am not debating for how I play but about how the system works as written.
Master of Type-O and the obvios.
Soon my army oc clones and winged-monkies will rule the world but first, must .......
I may debate canon and RAW, but the games I run are highly house ruled. So I am not debating for how I play but about how the system works as written.
Re: Punishment for theft.
Luvia wrote:Blue_Lion wrote:Zamion138 wrote:So its an un-winnable situation rail roading him into extreme action that will result in either death/imprisonment/murder. Sounds great.
Yes when he refused to hire a good lawyer he placed himself in a unwinnable situation. Going to court without legal council is near unwinnable, more so when your opponent is an expert. This is a fight he picked and ignored recommendations from the group to get help. (as he never disabled the anti theft, cameras and locator, and the MDC lot he stole from uses security guards and cameras(something that is clearly advertised and he was advised of), the fact he stole it had a 57% of being on camera I rolled a 21 so they had him stealing it on film.
whats it matter? The lawyer is a literal super hero. Its a kangaroo court. So hiring a lawyer is for what to make you feel better?
Already covered he could have hired the super hero, I also had other NPCs i wrote up specifically the help him beat the super lawyer. So yes hiring a good lawyer takes it from a no win to a decent chance at winning.
The Clones are coming you shall all be replaced, but who is to say you have not been replaced already.
Master of Type-O and the obvios.
Soon my army oc clones and winged-monkies will rule the world but first, must .......
I may debate canon and RAW, but the games I run are highly house ruled. So I am not debating for how I play but about how the system works as written.
Master of Type-O and the obvios.
Soon my army oc clones and winged-monkies will rule the world but first, must .......
I may debate canon and RAW, but the games I run are highly house ruled. So I am not debating for how I play but about how the system works as written.
Re: Punishment for theft.
Blue_Lion wrote:Luvia wrote:Blue_Lion wrote:Zamion138 wrote:So its an un-winnable situation rail roading him into extreme action that will result in either death/imprisonment/murder. Sounds great.
Yes when he refused to hire a good lawyer he placed himself in a unwinnable situation. Going to court without legal council is near unwinnable, more so when your opponent is an expert. This is a fight he picked and ignored recommendations from the group to get help. (as he never disabled the anti theft, cameras and locator, and the MDC lot he stole from uses security guards and cameras(something that is clearly advertised and he was advised of), the fact he stole it had a 57% of being on camera I rolled a 21 so they had him stealing it on film.
whats it matter? The lawyer is a literal super hero. Its a kangaroo court. So hiring a lawyer is for what to make you feel better?
Already covered he could have hired the super hero, I also had other NPCs i wrote up specifically the help him beat the super lawyer. So yes hiring a good lawyer takes it from a no win to a decent chance at winning.
Sounds like nothing more then retaliation by the gm towards the players. seems like way to much stuff randomly working against the players.
-
Pepsi Jedi
- Palladin
- Posts: 6955
- Joined: Wed Oct 18, 2006 3:11 am
- Comment: 24 was the start... We are Legion.
- Location: Northern Gun
Re: Punishment for theft.
Blue_Lion wrote:Pepsi Jedi wrote:Zamion138 wrote:I think you would have trials for car theft, if it was a kingsdale citzen who car is stolen..... but its gonna be pretty fast and not "fair".
The real problem seems like the GMPCs are more important and powerful to the story than the PCs.
You should kill off the gmpc's.... they are cancerous in games 98.2% of the time
The impression is that this is more than a car. (Not that it has to be mind you) It's the "Signature vehicle of a group of NPCs" That sound very much like a group of mercs or a gang.
It didn't 'happen' in Kingsdale. They caught up to him in kingsdale.
People are still worried about fighting off zombies and sploograth slavers and Cannabilistic monster riders. "Lets go to court" over a clear cut case of theft is going to be pretty low on the pole.
As vehicles in rifts, are mostly presented as MDC, and thus costing hundreds of thousands to millions of dollars. This group of "Dyssfunctionals' isn't going to comerunning up and yell for a police officer. They're out to get their 'Signature vehicle' back from the guy that stole hundreds of thousands to millions of dollars from them. Presumeably being said signature vehicle it was likely armed as well so they may have lost people just trying to catch up with the thief.
Had it been street crime inside a modern kingdom. Sure. maybe you go before a judge, but it's not going to be like huge jury trials with scheming lawyers calling out 100s of years of law to justify their arguements and objections.
The very best you could possibly hope for is a frontier type judge (As we envision them from movies) A hour long trial (If not 5 minutes. Guy was caught red handed) and sentancing right there from the bench. And that's for inside the city type crime.
Some guy comes tearing ass for leather into town in a stolen MDC vehicle with a group of Mercs or gang chasing after him isn't going to some how be granted asylum or anything. The cops are goimng to go "We saw you come tearing into town in that thing. These 30 guys claim you stole it. It's painted in their Merc Company colors, (Or gang colors) It's got their name spray painted on it. They have the frigging KEYS for it. You clearly stole it. *Shoves him to the mercs* You're their problem. "
There are only six members of the dysfunctionals, it is a band of heroes not a gang or merc group. They are a rival group of heroes that can at times finished quests that the PCs had taken to long to finish. They also have bailed the party out when the party was in trouble several times.
Well that's information that could have been useful weeks ago.
If they're such great friends. why go to trial? Why not just stomp a mud hole in the idiot and call it a day?
Lt. Nyota Uhura: I'm impressed. For a moment there, I thought you were just a dumb hick who only has sex with farm animals.
James Tiberius Kirk: Well, not _only_...
Re: Punishment for theft.
Pepsi Jedi wrote:Blue_Lion wrote:Pepsi Jedi wrote:Zamion138 wrote:I think you would have trials for car theft, if it was a kingsdale citzen who car is stolen..... but its gonna be pretty fast and not "fair".
The real problem seems like the GMPCs are more important and powerful to the story than the PCs.
You should kill off the gmpc's.... they are cancerous in games 98.2% of the time
The impression is that this is more than a car. (Not that it has to be mind you) It's the "Signature vehicle of a group of NPCs" That sound very much like a group of mercs or a gang.
It didn't 'happen' in Kingsdale. They caught up to him in kingsdale.
People are still worried about fighting off zombies and sploograth slavers and Cannabilistic monster riders. "Lets go to court" over a clear cut case of theft is going to be pretty low on the pole.
As vehicles in rifts, are mostly presented as MDC, and thus costing hundreds of thousands to millions of dollars. This group of "Dyssfunctionals' isn't going to comerunning up and yell for a police officer. They're out to get their 'Signature vehicle' back from the guy that stole hundreds of thousands to millions of dollars from them. Presumeably being said signature vehicle it was likely armed as well so they may have lost people just trying to catch up with the thief.
Had it been street crime inside a modern kingdom. Sure. maybe you go before a judge, but it's not going to be like huge jury trials with scheming lawyers calling out 100s of years of law to justify their arguements and objections.
The very best you could possibly hope for is a frontier type judge (As we envision them from movies) A hour long trial (If not 5 minutes. Guy was caught red handed) and sentancing right there from the bench. And that's for inside the city type crime.
Some guy comes tearing ass for leather into town in a stolen MDC vehicle with a group of Mercs or gang chasing after him isn't going to some how be granted asylum or anything. The cops are goimng to go "We saw you come tearing into town in that thing. These 30 guys claim you stole it. It's painted in their Merc Company colors, (Or gang colors) It's got their name spray painted on it. They have the frigging KEYS for it. You clearly stole it. *Shoves him to the mercs* You're their problem. "
There are only six members of the dysfunctionals, it is a band of heroes not a gang or merc group. They are a rival group of heroes that can at times finished quests that the PCs had taken to long to finish. They also have bailed the party out when the party was in trouble several times.
Well that's information that could have been useful weeks ago.
If they're such great friends. why go to trial? Why not just stomp a mud hole in the idiot and call it a day?
Because the dysfunctionals never do combat "on camera" but they do have a lawyer and a tendency to let court handle issues that deal with PC and towns. (goes back to the first time they where used.)
Like I said they are rivals that while they have saved the party, it does not mean they are on good terms.
The Clones are coming you shall all be replaced, but who is to say you have not been replaced already.
Master of Type-O and the obvios.
Soon my army oc clones and winged-monkies will rule the world but first, must .......
I may debate canon and RAW, but the games I run are highly house ruled. So I am not debating for how I play but about how the system works as written.
Master of Type-O and the obvios.
Soon my army oc clones and winged-monkies will rule the world but first, must .......
I may debate canon and RAW, but the games I run are highly house ruled. So I am not debating for how I play but about how the system works as written.
Re: Punishment for theft.
Luvia wrote:Blue_Lion wrote:Luvia wrote:Blue_Lion wrote:Zamion138 wrote:So its an un-winnable situation rail roading him into extreme action that will result in either death/imprisonment/murder. Sounds great.
Yes when he refused to hire a good lawyer he placed himself in a unwinnable situation. Going to court without legal council is near unwinnable, more so when your opponent is an expert. This is a fight he picked and ignored recommendations from the group to get help. (as he never disabled the anti theft, cameras and locator, and the MDC lot he stole from uses security guards and cameras(something that is clearly advertised and he was advised of), the fact he stole it had a 57% of being on camera I rolled a 21 so they had him stealing it on film.
whats it matter? The lawyer is a literal super hero. Its a kangaroo court. So hiring a lawyer is for what to make you feel better?
Already covered he could have hired the super hero, I also had other NPCs i wrote up specifically the help him beat the super lawyer. So yes hiring a good lawyer takes it from a no win to a decent chance at winning.
Sounds like nothing more then retaliation by the gm towards the players. seems like way to much stuff randomly working against the players.
The only thing random up to the part he got caught was the roll to see if it was on film. The tracking device and cameras are on the stats of the vehicle. The use of security cameras and guards on MDC storage lots in cities is to discourage theft of stuff stored and ease the players minds about leaving gear in such lots. The storage lot has signs that cameras where in use and I informed the player of those signs before they left there gear and reminded him of them when he was going to steal the vehicle.(Now I did roll to see if a guard would walk up while he was stealing it or notice the theft on the cameras he won that roll.)
I tracked the movement of NPCs to see if they would catch up to him out in the woods. I used logs of their activity to determine how helpful Kingsdale would be in this case.
The biggest thing that worked against him was his choice of targets. The other players told him it was not worth it, but he stole a one of a kind flying Winnebago, with the groups logo on the side. Even in my game with all the custom stuff I have there is only one of those. I did not randomly determine his target. He chose it when he noticed the signature vehicle in the lot. I told him it was there when he asked if anything in the lot stands out. I also told him about a modified helicopter, three VTOL jets, two Triax robots a NE tank, a wind jammier floating barge and a walking tower.
The Clones are coming you shall all be replaced, but who is to say you have not been replaced already.
Master of Type-O and the obvios.
Soon my army oc clones and winged-monkies will rule the world but first, must .......
I may debate canon and RAW, but the games I run are highly house ruled. So I am not debating for how I play but about how the system works as written.
Master of Type-O and the obvios.
Soon my army oc clones and winged-monkies will rule the world but first, must .......
I may debate canon and RAW, but the games I run are highly house ruled. So I am not debating for how I play but about how the system works as written.
Re: Punishment for theft.
See, Blue Lion, part of the issue is that you're setting up some truly bizarre scenarios, then asking for help finding a solution. Here's what you've laid out:
Player stole the vehicle, against every possible warning sign. I agree, and I think most of the rest of the folks here do, as well, that this was dumb, and personally I feel the player is being disruptive for the sake of it.
He then took the vehicle into a city sympathetic to the victims, and got caught red-handed. Again, all well-and-good so far.
Now, instead of frontier 'get a rope' justice, this particular locale has sufficient civilization to have formal trials. Okay, interesting. Again, no issues with your calls so far.
However, at this point, you kind of go off the rails:
1: This is being presented as a criminal trial. For some reason, one of the victims is acting as the prosecutor. This is extremely strange and unorthodox. at best.
2: Furthermore, that SAME lawyer was also a contender for the lawyer for the defense, despite being the victim. Here, seriously, we completely lose any sense of this universe making sense. Hiring your victim to be your attorney seems like the worst idea ever.
3: You set up a couple of lawyers ostensibly capable of facing Superlawyer, and that had another odd tidbit: One of those lawyers is immune to mind tampering. So apparently Superlawyer is using mind-control to tamper with the trial process... which seems like something that would get the Dyssfunctionals kicked out of town if it was exposed, which the party should be able to manage on their own (and seriously, I'm trying to comprehend how the hell this town operates that they've got a functional legal system but no apparent safeguards against magical and psionic tampering).
At this point, you've lost any sympathy you gained from having a player troll your game, because quite frankly, it seems like it needs a little trolling. The scenario you've laid out is so bizarre as to be unfathomable--might as well make stock throw-away characters because expecting to interact with the world in a comprehensible fashion seems like a fool's errand.
Now, it's possible that there's more info that would put all of this into perspective. But the way you laid out the scenario leaves us with the view that problem is largely insoluble--and even if all the bits I mentioned up above are somehow accounted for by further facts, we still have the issue of the player seeming to be either a troll or just a stubborn dip$#!^, which means that any solution you present him with is going to be refused at best, and deliberately countermanded at worst.
Player stole the vehicle, against every possible warning sign. I agree, and I think most of the rest of the folks here do, as well, that this was dumb, and personally I feel the player is being disruptive for the sake of it.
He then took the vehicle into a city sympathetic to the victims, and got caught red-handed. Again, all well-and-good so far.
Now, instead of frontier 'get a rope' justice, this particular locale has sufficient civilization to have formal trials. Okay, interesting. Again, no issues with your calls so far.
However, at this point, you kind of go off the rails:
1: This is being presented as a criminal trial. For some reason, one of the victims is acting as the prosecutor. This is extremely strange and unorthodox. at best.
2: Furthermore, that SAME lawyer was also a contender for the lawyer for the defense, despite being the victim. Here, seriously, we completely lose any sense of this universe making sense. Hiring your victim to be your attorney seems like the worst idea ever.
3: You set up a couple of lawyers ostensibly capable of facing Superlawyer, and that had another odd tidbit: One of those lawyers is immune to mind tampering. So apparently Superlawyer is using mind-control to tamper with the trial process... which seems like something that would get the Dyssfunctionals kicked out of town if it was exposed, which the party should be able to manage on their own (and seriously, I'm trying to comprehend how the hell this town operates that they've got a functional legal system but no apparent safeguards against magical and psionic tampering).
At this point, you've lost any sympathy you gained from having a player troll your game, because quite frankly, it seems like it needs a little trolling. The scenario you've laid out is so bizarre as to be unfathomable--might as well make stock throw-away characters because expecting to interact with the world in a comprehensible fashion seems like a fool's errand.
Now, it's possible that there's more info that would put all of this into perspective. But the way you laid out the scenario leaves us with the view that problem is largely insoluble--and even if all the bits I mentioned up above are somehow accounted for by further facts, we still have the issue of the player seeming to be either a troll or just a stubborn dip$#!^, which means that any solution you present him with is going to be refused at best, and deliberately countermanded at worst.
Re: Punishment for theft.
Freemage wrote:See, Blue Lion, part of the issue is that you're setting up some truly bizarre scenarios, then asking for help finding a solution. Here's what you've laid out:
Player stole the vehicle, against every possible warning sign. I agree, and I think most of the rest of the folks here do, as well, that this was dumb, and personally I feel the player is being disruptive for the sake of it.
He then took the vehicle into a city sympathetic to the victims, and got caught red-handed. Again, all well-and-good so far.
Now, instead of frontier 'get a rope' justice, this particular locale has sufficient civilization to have formal trials. Okay, interesting. Again, no issues with your calls so far.
However, at this point, you kind of go off the rails:
1: This is being presented as a criminal trial. For some reason, one of the victims is acting as the prosecutor. This is extremely strange and unorthodox. at best.
2: Furthermore, that SAME lawyer was also a contender for the lawyer for the defense, despite being the victim. Here, seriously, we completely lose any sense of this universe making sense. Hiring your victim to be your attorney seems like the worst idea ever.
3: You set up a couple of lawyers ostensibly capable of facing Superlawyer, and that had another odd tidbit: One of those lawyers is immune to mind tampering. So apparently Superlawyer is using mind-control to tamper with the trial process... which seems like something that would get the Dyssfunctionals kicked out of town if it was exposed, which the party should be able to manage on their own (and seriously, I'm trying to comprehend how the hell this town operates that they've got a functional legal system but no apparent safeguards against magical and psionic tampering).
At this point, you've lost any sympathy you gained from having a player troll your game, because quite frankly, it seems like it needs a little trolling. The scenario you've laid out is so bizarre as to be unfathomable--might as well make stock throw-away characters because expecting to interact with the world in a comprehensible fashion seems like a fool's errand.
Now, it's possible that there's more info that would put all of this into perspective. But the way you laid out the scenario leaves us with the view that problem is largely insoluble--and even if all the bits I mentioned up above are somehow accounted for by further facts, we still have the issue of the player seeming to be either a troll or just a stubborn dip$#!^, which means that any solution you present him with is going to be refused at best, and deliberately countermanded at worst.
He is a super his tampering is not magical or Psionic based so dog boys do not sense it, it also is subtle so hard to detect, more so giving that he has a high MA. Assuming that because I created a NPC capable of detecting it means the PC can detect it is flawed logic, as the NPC has skills/abilty that none of the PCs posses. (He was made to help a PC win when the PC lacked the skills/abilty needed.) Lawspeaker is also a believer in the accused rights to quality legal council why else would he get people off for mass murder and took a oath to defend any one who asks and pays his fees. You know less than 10% of the facts and pass judgement on may game to the point it seams more a personal attack. (Like the fact I require in several cities you provide the prosecuter in cases of personal injury or theft or the motivational principle behind a NPCs actions.)
I do have rules for courts that I use but that was not what I was looking to justify others made it about the trial.
What I was looking for was a way to punish him after he lost the trail(by the rules I use for trials) that would not be charter death, not a debate about how a law system works in my games or why NPC do X and Y.
The Clones are coming you shall all be replaced, but who is to say you have not been replaced already.
Master of Type-O and the obvios.
Soon my army oc clones and winged-monkies will rule the world but first, must .......
I may debate canon and RAW, but the games I run are highly house ruled. So I am not debating for how I play but about how the system works as written.
Master of Type-O and the obvios.
Soon my army oc clones and winged-monkies will rule the world but first, must .......
I may debate canon and RAW, but the games I run are highly house ruled. So I am not debating for how I play but about how the system works as written.
Re: Punishment for theft.
Then you gave us too much information in the original post, which occluded getting to what you wanted. Here's what we needed to know to give suitable advice:
1: A PC has been convicted of vehicular theft.
2: I don't want to just execute the PC, and they're in a part of the world where that would be unlikely anyway.
3: I could use some alternate punishments.
This is the pertinent info; the rest is all gaming story, and if you're going to tell gaming stories, you should do so in a way that makes the setting itself clearer.
But instead, you went into a long side-rail about the PC refusing help, then the confounding bit about Superlawyer (seriously--Superlawyer is completely unnecessary to addressing this). That was where the emotion of your post was, so that's what people latched onto and responded to--which in turn created a massive derail as you got increasingly defensive about it.
So, to the problem at hand--you've actually been given several good ideas in this thread--restitution of some sort, both to the victim and the town. It can be enforced by magical (geas-style spells) or technological (cerebral cortex bomb) means, or both. Personally, I'd say restoration of the vehicle, plus some compensation to the victims for the time and money they spent tracking him down. Since it was a property crime with no apparent violence that we've heard about, the primary goal of the law is going to be to "make whole" the victims. He might also owe some similar compensation to the owner of the lot the vehicle was stolen from.
Then he has to pay 'court costs', which would be an additional fine, plus 'community service' for putting the town through the effort of a trial. Depending upon your needs in the campaign, you can either have him required to perform service-on-demand for a period of time, or you can give him a specific quest which must be completed before he gets the geas/bomb removed.
Of course, this does have another issue, and this goes back to elements of the gaming story--namely, as another player at that table, I'd require some serious rewards to continue hanging around with such a idiocy-prone PC. Whether he's in prison or on a quest doesn't make much difference either way, if the rest of the party isn't willing to go along with him.
Thus, I recommend the Belkar Scenario. If you're not familiar with The Order of the Stick (or just don't read it), here's the breakdown:
One member of the group, a Chaotic Evil Halfling Ranger, is prone to highly disruptive antics which ultimately result in him being slammed with a Geas-style curse that will kick in under certain circumstances:
1: He kills anyone within a city.
2: A command phrase is used.
3: He is ever more than a mile from the leader of the party, a Lawful Good Fighter who is vouching for his future good conduct.
The command phrase is then given to the aforementioned Fighter, who now has the tools necessary to keep him in line. Giving that kind of control to one of the other players may be the only way to keep this particular player from continually derailing the game.
1: A PC has been convicted of vehicular theft.
2: I don't want to just execute the PC, and they're in a part of the world where that would be unlikely anyway.
3: I could use some alternate punishments.
This is the pertinent info; the rest is all gaming story, and if you're going to tell gaming stories, you should do so in a way that makes the setting itself clearer.
But instead, you went into a long side-rail about the PC refusing help, then the confounding bit about Superlawyer (seriously--Superlawyer is completely unnecessary to addressing this). That was where the emotion of your post was, so that's what people latched onto and responded to--which in turn created a massive derail as you got increasingly defensive about it.
So, to the problem at hand--you've actually been given several good ideas in this thread--restitution of some sort, both to the victim and the town. It can be enforced by magical (geas-style spells) or technological (cerebral cortex bomb) means, or both. Personally, I'd say restoration of the vehicle, plus some compensation to the victims for the time and money they spent tracking him down. Since it was a property crime with no apparent violence that we've heard about, the primary goal of the law is going to be to "make whole" the victims. He might also owe some similar compensation to the owner of the lot the vehicle was stolen from.
Then he has to pay 'court costs', which would be an additional fine, plus 'community service' for putting the town through the effort of a trial. Depending upon your needs in the campaign, you can either have him required to perform service-on-demand for a period of time, or you can give him a specific quest which must be completed before he gets the geas/bomb removed.
Of course, this does have another issue, and this goes back to elements of the gaming story--namely, as another player at that table, I'd require some serious rewards to continue hanging around with such a idiocy-prone PC. Whether he's in prison or on a quest doesn't make much difference either way, if the rest of the party isn't willing to go along with him.
Thus, I recommend the Belkar Scenario. If you're not familiar with The Order of the Stick (or just don't read it), here's the breakdown:
One member of the group, a Chaotic Evil Halfling Ranger, is prone to highly disruptive antics which ultimately result in him being slammed with a Geas-style curse that will kick in under certain circumstances:
1: He kills anyone within a city.
2: A command phrase is used.
3: He is ever more than a mile from the leader of the party, a Lawful Good Fighter who is vouching for his future good conduct.
The command phrase is then given to the aforementioned Fighter, who now has the tools necessary to keep him in line. Giving that kind of control to one of the other players may be the only way to keep this particular player from continually derailing the game.