Cyber-Knight Variants?

[LostOne]

So I loved the Cyber-Knight update back in the siege on Tolkeen and RUE. Long overdue. But it is so focused against tech. Has anyone introduced any variants in their games? Something targeted against supernaturals instead of tech? Something more balanced against each? A renegade, fallen or evil cyber-knight? I love the idea of the Cyber-Knights, but what I'd love is a juicer uprising style set of variants giving more options where you could have a group of cyber-knights with more variety between them.

[Prysus]

Greetings and Salutations. I don't play Rifts much, but I came up with a variant hand to hand to help accommodate a variety of different Cyber-Knight types:

http://www.prysus.com/hth_spirit_knight.htm

I know others have come up with their own variants as well. Hope that helps. Farewell and safe journeys.

[Hotrod]

So I loved the Cyber-Knight update back in the siege on Tolkeen and RUE. Long overdue. But it is so focused against tech. Has anyone introduced any variants in their games? Something targeted against supernaturals instead of tech? Something more balanced against each? A renegade, fallen or evil cyber-knight? I love the idea of the Cyber-Knights, but what I'd love is a juicer uprising style set of variants giving more options where you could have a group of cyber-knights with more variety between them.

I dislike the anti-tech focus of the Cyber-Knight's post SoT abilities, and I find Zen Combat to be a broken, un-workable mess. Here's how I would change it.

First, I'd provide several paths of abilities among Cyber-Knights, of which the anti-tech Zen Combat fighters would represent one popular option. The options would be:
1. The Melee Cyber-Knight. An advanced hand-to-hand combat skill in lieu of Martial Arts and Zen Combat, such as Commando or a sword-focused advanced martial art from Rifts: Japan or Rifts: China. Just re-name the chosen hand-to-hand "Cyber-Knight" and pretend that it has nothing to do with where it actually comes from.

2. A Cyber-Knight Shooter that borrows some of the psi-slinger's abilities with guns or rifles.

3. A Psi-Knight. This knight doesn't get Zen Combat. Instead, this knight gets to take extra psionic powers and is considered a master psionic. This is a specialized class of knights who grew up in Psyscape who gets all the bonuses associated with growing up there.

4. An Anti-sSpernatural Knight that gets the same bonuses as the revised Zen Combat (see below), but against supernatural enemies, magic users, magic weapons, and psychics.

5. The Current Anti-Tech Knight would remain with the following adjustments:

A. Replace penalties against tech enemies with bonuses to the cyber-knight against a tech opponent. This reduces the book-keeping nightmare of taking an N.P.C., trying to figure out which parts of a bonus to strike come from tech, selectively eliminating them, and adding up the remainder every time you want to roll to strike vs the CK.

B. Re-define "tech" to be "using a weapon that requires explosives or electricity." Thus guns and energy weapons make Zen Combat work, but environmental body armor, optics, cybernetics and such do not.

C. Eliminate the initiative modifiers. They break as soon as non-tech enemies join up with tech ones when you give the CK a bonus, and they break down when non-CK's fight on the CK's side. There's no good way to fix this issue, so just get rid of it.

D. Eliminate all effects on attacks per melee. These penalties break in anything outside one-on-one combat.

E. In place of the initiative modifiers and attacks-per-melee penalties, combine the auto-dodge vs tech and the "attack while moving/off balance" into an "automatic counter-dodge vs guns" in which the Cyber-Knight both does an auto-dodge with none of the usual penalties vs guns and gets a free attack to use as a simultaneous counter-attack. That is to say, the CK gets both an auto-dodge roll and a counter-attack roll. The counter-attack must be directed against the attacker and no-one else (it can be used to shoot incoming missiles). Additionally:

+The counter can only be a single-action attack. That is, no aimed shots, called shots, leap attacks, charge attacks, or power punches/kicks. Just a simple attack or burst/pulse. Maybe a higher-level refinement allows a CK to spend an attack to turn it into a special attack.

+The counter-dodge doesn't move the CK significantly, so it won't move the CK into or out of melee range. Thus, if the CK is getting shot at from a distance, he/she must counter with a distance-attack like a gun, thrown weapon, or power that strikes at a distance, and the CK's attacker must be in range of that attack.

+Other than activating a psi-sword, the CK can't reload or draw a weapon as part of a counter-dodge. That requires a separate action that uses up an attack.

+Counter-dodging doesn't work against melee attackers or other CK's, even if the attacking CK is shooting.

+Counter-dodging works on horseback, but not with horse attacks. Initially, it will not work with power armor or robots, but those might be abilities that a high-level CK could unlock.

[LostOne]

There's a lot to digest there, but some solid ideas. The penalizing opponents always felt more awkward than simply giving the knight a bonus, I've done the same for that in my game.

[TeeAychEeMarchHare]

I've never had a player play one. Reading the mess that the class is now makes me glad I don't currently GM.

I'd basically scrap the entire anti-tech focus of the class. Or make it a distinct sub-class, only available after the start of the CS-Tolk war. As it is, it's basically throwing out the idea of the class in favor of making them an anti-CS weapon. A walking version of the WWII tank destroyer, with a sword instead of a cannon. The whole idea of the class is to be a 'wandering hero', saving people from monsters, bandits, themselves, etc. How much tech does your average monster that slobbered its way out of a rift and started eating villagers have? Not much.

[LostOne]

I played one shortly after the Cyber-Knights book came out. It was very very effective in the few fights against tech that we had. As I recall I was more effective against the tech than the mega juicer was. However, most of the game was against magic and supernatural. Still decent there. But that penalty thing drove the GM nuts so we just made it a bonus for me.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

The only variant i use is the one in the RMB. Because the new one is a mess, and doesn't make any sense with their theme.

[Axelmania]

The only change I can see in the theme is in addition to using cybernetics (the armor, perhaps other implants) they also have abilities for detecting them. Plus a little power creep (2 swords, healing armor)

[Hotrod]

I feel I should also mention that the Savage Rifts take on the Cyber-Knight is quite different and interesting. I'd rather like to see it implemented in the Palladium side as well.

[LostOne]

I had the thought, what if a Burster became a Cyber-Knight before their powers really manifested? You could end up with a cyber-knight with a fire sword and the fire defense (probably lesser MDC), etc. Other variants could involve the other psychic types, psi-stalker, etc. With some unique powers for that Cyber-Knight variant that neither the cyber-knight or psychic class had and less/reduced powers that the normal cyber-knight or psychic class had.

[rem1093]

I had the thought, what if a Burster became a Cyber-Knight before their powers really manifested? You could end up with a cyber-knight with a fire sword and the fire defense (probably lesser MDC), etc. Other variants could involve the other psychic types, psi-stalker, etc. With some unique powers for that Cyber-Knight variant that neither the cyber-knight or psychic class had and less/reduced powers that the normal cyber-knight or psychic class had.

We actually with played with a Burster-Knight. Replaced the Master psi powers with Burster powers. As for the sword we had it change to flame at level 2 when he got the extra damage. This could easily work with the other classes.

As a suggestion for another knight type. A true Cyber knight, they would get more implants (say half what a partial borg would get) when they go though the ritual that bonds the armor. This would bond the implants the same as the armor. At level 4 all the implants would become living parts of the knight. But i would only work on the non psychic knights.

[Hotrod]

I had the thought, what if a Burster became a Cyber-Knight before their powers really manifested? You could end up with a cyber-knight with a fire sword and the fire defense (probably lesser MDC), etc. Other variants could involve the other psychic types, psi-stalker, etc. With some unique powers for that Cyber-Knight variant that neither the cyber-knight or psychic class had and less/reduced powers that the normal cyber-knight or psychic class had.

Cyber-Knights can be Psi-Stalkers and Dog Boys, and you can make the argument that they can be psi-nullifier psi-stalkers, too, since that seems to be a function of luck and/or having had certain experiences during childhood rather than training.

Beyond that, I don't know of other canon P.C.C.'s that could also be Cyber-Knights. I should also mention that there are no rules on how to roll up a psi-stalker cyber knight (do they get all the abilities of both classes stacked, or is it a one-or-the-other sort of thing, or is it a mix?), but it seems reasonable that some other specialized master-level psychic character classes could become cyber-knights by swapping their powers in lieu of the Cyber-Knight's psionics and considering their psi-sword as a master-level psi-sword, while using the CK for skills. A Burster or psi-slinger seems like a reasonable option, while a psi-tech does not.

[Axelmania]

there are no rules on how to roll up a psi-stalker cyber knight (do they get all the abilities of both classes stacked, or is it a one-or-the-other sort of thing, or is it a mix?),

Nor rolling up Psi-Stalkers who are also Psi-Nullifiers. It's a fascinating area.

[Hotrod]

there are no rules on how to roll up a psi-stalker cyber knight (do they get all the abilities of both classes stacked, or is it a one-or-the-other sort of thing, or is it a mix?),

Nor rolling up Psi-Stalkers who are also Psi-Nullifiers. It's a fascinating area.

They sort of do. p83 of Psyscape states that a small minority of Psi-Stalkers develop the powers of the Nega-Psychic and the Psi-Nullifier, and it gives some vague guidelines on how to create such characters.

[Axelmania]

Does it mention specifically which psi-stalker aspects are kept/lost though?

Also: weirdly the Nega-Psychic section itself I don't think mentions Psi-Stalkers like the Psi-Nullifier section does.

[Hotrod]

Does it mention specifically which psi-stalker aspects are kept/lost though?

Also: weirdly the Nega-Psychic section itself I don't think mentions Psi-Stalkers like the Psi-Nullifier section does.

Nope.

My own personal interpretation: Psi-Stalkers keep their tracking/detection abilities, their "turn into MDC against the supernatural/at ley lines" ability, their ambidextrousness, their physical bonuses, and their feeding ability. While these provide some useful abilities, they come at the cost of having to feed on P.P.E. or I.S.P regularly, and they seem appropriate to tie to the Psi-Stalker as a subspecies of humans.

Psi-Stalkers lose all their "other" psionic powers (which I think are a bunch of sensitive powers) and their psionic bonuses, I.S.P., and P.P.E. These all come from their new O.C.C. along with their skills and starting equipment.

I don't see much difference between the powers of the Psi-Nullifier and the Nega-Psychic.

[RockJock]

I've used a slightly modified set of Demon Queller MA abilities in place of the anti-tech CK level ups.

[Ziggurat the Eternal]

I played around with removing every reference to tech from zen combat and just making effect every enemy. It was a mistake but at least it was functional and not a massive asspull.

[RockJock]

Z, that would be too powerful for me, but I get your point. What about sort of a hybrid of our ideas? Take the book write up, replace tech in Zen Combat with demons and dyvils? Might be a little iffy for the reasoning why they are blurred to demons, but I can say the same to why they are blurred to tech.

[Hotrod]

Z, that would be too powerful for me, but I get your point. What about sort of a hybrid of our ideas? Take the book write up, replace tech in Zen Combat with demons and dyvils? Might be a little iffy for the reasoning why they are blurred to demons, but I can say the same to why they are blurred to tech.

Would the approach I gave in my first post here work?

[RockJock]

Hotrod,

In general I think I could work with your setup. Maybe not 100% in my game, but something close. They all seem at least in the realm to me.

[taalismn]

There's a lot to digest there, but some solid ideas. The penalizing opponents always felt more awkward than simply giving the knight a bonus, I've done the same for that in my game.

I agree, but I can see meta story here in the divergence of new paths from Lord Coake's original vision. This would eb in keeping with the hints that the once mono bloc organization of the CyberKnights is strained, if not outright fracturing/
Differences of opinion of the Orders' focus could lead to some interesting and very different offshoots.

[Killer Cyborg]

So I loved the Cyber-Knight update back in the siege on Tolkeen and RUE. Long overdue. But it is so focused against tech. Has anyone introduced any variants in their games? Something targeted against supernaturals instead of tech? Something more balanced against each? A renegade, fallen or evil cyber-knight? I love the idea of the Cyber-Knights, but what I'd love is a juicer uprising style set of variants giving more options where you could have a group of cyber-knights with more variety between them.

I never really wrote it up or fleshed it out, by after the CK as a class was wildly distorted and changed by SoT, I decided that a better version would be something like...

Cyber Knight: Path Of The Machine
Instead of the Zen Anti-Machine Powers, I'd go with some pro-machine powers.
CKs are one of the few OCCs to have both cybernetics AND psionics, and while the new official versions of the CK try to address that by making their Cyber Armor a living part of the CK, I think they should have gone farther; they should be able to turn other cybernetics/bionics into a living part of them.
So at level 1, they have Cyber Armor that has become a living part of them.
At levels 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13, and 15, they can each "absorb" or bond with 1 new cybernetic/bionic implant.
At level 4 they can manifest their Psi-Sword around a vibro-blade or cybernetic/bionic melee weapon (like claws, wrist garrotte, spiked knuckles, etc.), stacking the damage from the weapon and the Psi-Sword.
At levels 2, 6, 10, and 12, they can "absorb" or bond with a cybernetic or bionic limb. Once they have all four limbs replaced, they can count as a Partial Conversion Borg while still retaining their Cyberknight OCC.
At level 15, they can become a Full Conversion Borg while still retaining their OCC.

(Those are the basic ideas, although I haven't tested the stats or anything.
The benefit of bonding with implants/limbs/etc. is that there is no loss of psionic powers because the components are a living part of the CK. Also, the living cyberbetic/bionic parts are capable of healing on their own, or through healing magic/psionics, instead of needing to be repaired.)

[LostOne]

I actually really like that concept, I'm sure some tweaking would need to happen for balance/use. Also I've never taken a character to double digit levels in Rifts so I'd never get to experience the joy of a full conversion cyber-knight. One thing you might consider adding if it isn't assumed to be gained at level 1 with the living armor is that the cybernetics bonded with him self-repair at the same rate as the cyber-armor. So that full conversion borg slowly regenerates. Because a cyber-knight on a mission may not have time or resources to stop in at a cyber-doc for repairs and replacements when he's on a long hunt of a badguy.

[Hotrod]

So I loved the Cyber-Knight update back in the siege on Tolkeen and RUE. Long overdue. But it is so focused against tech. Has anyone introduced any variants in their games? Something targeted against supernaturals instead of tech? Something more balanced against each? A renegade, fallen or evil cyber-knight? I love the idea of the Cyber-Knights, but what I'd love is a juicer uprising style set of variants giving more options where you could have a group of cyber-knights with more variety between them.

I never really wrote it up or fleshed it out, by after the CK as a class was wildly distorted and changed by SoT, I decided that a better version would be something like...

Cyber Knight: Path Of The Machine
Instead of the Zen Anti-Machine Powers, I'd go with some pro-machine powers.
CKs are one of the few OCCs to have both cybernetics AND psionics, and while the new official versions of the CK try to address that by making their Cyber Armor a living part of the CK, I think they should have gone farther; they should be able to turn other cybernetics/bionics into a living part of them.
So at level 1, they have Cyber Armor that has become a living part of them.
At levels 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13, and 15, they can each "absorb" or bond with 1 new cybernetic/bionic implant.
At level 4 they can manifest their Psi-Sword around a vibro-blade or cybernetic/bionic melee weapon (like claws, wrist garrotte, spiked knuckles, etc.), stacking the damage from the weapon and the Psi-Sword.
At levels 2, 6, 10, and 12, they can "absorb" or bond with a cybernetic or bionic limb. Once they have all four limbs replaced, they can count as a Partial Conversion Borg while still retaining their Cyberknight OCC.
At level 15, they can become a Full Conversion Borg while still retaining their OCC.

(Those are the basic ideas, although I haven't tested the stats or anything.
The benefit of bonding with implants/limbs/etc. is that there is no loss of psionic powers because the components are a living part of the CK. Also, the living cyberbetic/bionic parts are capable of healing on their own, or through healing magic/psionics, instead of needing to be repaired.)

I love this.

[Lord Loppage]

Nekira Sudacne did (in my opinion) a WONDER change to the Zen combat ability. Making it work against all opponents, not just techs. The topic name was Revised Cyber Knight OCC back in 2004. I’ll copy and paste it here.

well, this is something that's been bugging me for a while.

in the main book, Cyber Knights are supposed to be lone wandering warriors saving towns from bandits and demons.

I wanted to make one, but as I looked though it I realized something:

they're not strong enough to do that. even fighting smart, assuming their enemys are smart too they have little chance by themselves.


then SoT4 came out, and SURPRISE! Zen combat came out to give them the edge they need.

...


aginst Tech ONLY! huh???? Zen is sensing the whole world around you, not just electronics

so I decided to rewrite it all. Zen Combat now provides bonuses aginst ANYTHING, BUT not quite as powerful as presented.

while I'm at it, I tweek the class in a few other ways. . .


behold:

Cyber Knight:

OCC Requirments:
PE: 11
ME: 11

OCC Bonuses:
+1d4 to MA, ME, PS, PE, and Speed
+1d4*10 SDC
+1 Attack per melee
+3 inititave
+2 roll punch
+2 Disarm
+1 to save vs. horror factor at levels 1,2,5,8, 10, 12,15

OCC Skills:
Literacy (+20%)
Language: Speak Native tounge at 98%
speak american and dragonese/elf at 96%
Speak two additional languages of choice at +30%
Lore: demon and moster: +25%
Anthropology: +15%
Paramedic: +15%
Horsemanship: Cyber Knight
Climbing: +10%
Body Building
Gymnastics: +5%
Swimming: +10%
Athletics (general)
WP: Sword
WP: 2 ancient of choice
WP: Two modern of choice
Combat skill: Martial Arts (can change to Assassin at no cost IF abberent alingment)

OCC related and Secondary Skills: as in Cyber Knights book

Standard equipment as in Cyber Knights book

Dream vision: standard

Psionics: as written in Cyber Knigts book. however, to clairify the Master Psionics part, Psi Stalkers who are knights are, as are any master psychic RCC that takes it. also, Mind Melters and the like can become Cyber Knigts too, but get the limited psionics set for master knights. also gain special power listed below in zen combat.

also, if for their one Psychic power of choice they pick Psi-Sword, they can still make it instantly but it does teh increased damage of the Mind Melters kind.

also, for note, even non psycic cyber knights get the standard 6d6+10 ISP. psychic cyber knigts get +ME as well. Master psychic cyber knights get an additional +20
Cyber Armor: NONE! Cyber armor is not loger applicable to cyber knights.

instead, they start the game with 1d4 cybernetic impants of choice. what makes them special is that they HAVE NO EFFECT ON THEIR PSYCHIC POWERS. a cyber knight can get up to 6 cybernetic impants with no negative penalites to any psychic or magic powers (magic powers apply only to dee bee races that have natural magical powers). no bionics can be aquired, however, and any number of bio-sysems as usual.

other than the starting ones, they can aquire any at any time.

Zen Combat: HERE is the big difference

first, the following bonuses are good aginst ALL opponts. they are not restricted to tech only. they can zen like sense ANY attack, be it from demon, unarmed dragon, or even that high tech headhunter with the laser rifle

Level one: Psychic MDC transformation: this is a special ability similar to the Demon Quellers of Japan and others. this lets them spend psychic energy to temporarally transform themselves into MDC creatures. all HP and SDC is added to form total MDC. lasts for 4 melee round per level. costs 25 ISP to use. Strength is considered Supernatural during this time as well, and supernatural PS punch damage is added to the psi-sword or other weapon when weilded. so a first level cyber knight with a PS of 17 would do 2d6 MD with his psi sword.

level 2: paired weapons. can use a sheild in one hand and weapon in other OR two weapons at once with equal skill. gets WP sheild skill: +1 parry at levels 1, 3,6,9,12,15

Level 3. Combat acrobatics: ability to fight even when moving or off balance. no penalties to fighting while moving. also take a limited version of teh Acrobatics skill in which you aquire the sub skills like walk tightropes or sense of balance, BUT none of the phisical skill bonuses to combat and attrabutes unless already taken as a skill

Level 4: Basic Combat awareness: can focus and be aware of ONE primary opponete. this is ANY opponent, not just tech. while it WILL work on a tech using opponet it works with equal power on a brodkil, or an unarmed brawler.

Zen Bonuses aginst anything:
does NOT negate any bonuses, mearly provides the following bonuses:
know what the oponet is doing that the same instant he does, providing:
+3 inititave aginst THAT opponet
+3 strike and parry that opponent
opponent looses 1 melee action and -2 dodge his attacks. because the cyber knight still only knows an instant AFTER the target does, the penalties are not as bad as they could be

level 4: Automatic dodge with +4 aginst attacks from an opponet targeted as above. at level 8, this becomes a general auto dodge aginst all attacks, similar to the juicer

level 5. gain 1 additional attack per melee

level 6 cloud mind. this allows the cyber knight to temporarally cloud the mind of their opponets, allowing them to disapear from plain sight. preform the next melee action invisble.

level 7: gain +2 disarm

level 8: Advanced Combat Awareness: the cyber nights zen like awareness extends to let them know the actions of any opponet they face. this resembles the Martial Arts Power Zanshin in several ways

Bonuses:
Does NOT negate any bonuses
the cyber knight can sense what all of his opponets will be doing a second his opponet does:
+2 to initiave aginst all opponents
+2 strike and parry
+2 to autododge, autododge is extended to all attacks
opponents are at -1 strike, parry, and dodge the cyber knight, and -1 melee attack trying to keep up with him.

level 9: advanced cloud mind ability: the cyber knight is able to act as though invisible for a full melee. note, the cyber knight, both here and the lesser form above is NOT actually invisbile at all, he mearly tricks enemys into not seeing him in a manner similar to Psionic invisiblity.

level 10: +1 strike

level 11: +1 parry

level 12: +1 autododge

level 13: +2 disarm

level 14: +3 to pull punch

level 15: add 1 melee attack/action per melee

note, zen combat is NOT ment to be a combat art in and of itself but rather provides some bonuses in addition to any given HtH skill.

-----

well this is it. I'm sure my giving them MDC transformation and ditching cyber armor will irritate some people but there are reasons:

I tweaked their bonuses a bit: to save vs. horror factor a bit. these guys should be a litter cooler headed than just +5 at level 15.

I tweaked the bonuses on a few of their OCC skills and added a couple.

the cyber armor was almost useless as it was, and becomeing a living part made no sense, so I ditched it.

to keep the Cyber sprit stronger than ever however, I allowed them to start with and gain cybernetic implants without it havign affect their psionic powers.

MDC transformation made sense.

as I said, these guys are supposed to kill deamons and BANDS fo bandits SINGLE HANDED. as it was they just couldn't. so I upped them.

their supernatrual PS stacks with their psi-sword because their PS is psychic in nature, actually increasing the psi-swords power, dipite the fact it has no phisical core. it also lets them take on MDC oppoents even unarmoed if need be.

the Zen combat now has expanded bonuses more spread out, with lesser penalties to oppoents BUT they work aginst ANY opponent, not just tech. I also sought to clear up the Master Psychic part.

[Mack]

Topic Locked for necro-posting. More than a year between posts.