Gun Tats

[Library Ogre]

Ok, just a silly thought:

A weapon tattoo can create bows and crossbows. It can create arrows and bolts. It cannot create bullets.

Would it be reasonable to have a weapon tattoo that created a revolver (i.e. a relatively simple mechanical object, similar to a crossbow), for which the T-man would have to supply bullets?

[darthauthor]

In a certain way, I think it is OK.

I vaguely recall the Atlantis book saying something about it can't be guns.

IS a Bow and Arrow that much different than a gun?
They do the same thing.
One with an arrow.
The other with a bullet.

I guess the one of the obstacles is:

The Atlanteans didn't like the idea so they never did it.

I supposed someone somewhere thought that gunpowder and all that didn't make sense with a magic tattoo.

One question that comes to mind is, do you stop at S.D.C. bullets or do you get to have energy rifles and railguns?

[Library Ogre]

One question that comes to mind is, do you stop at S.D.C. bullets or do you get to have energy rifles and railguns?

Right now, I am thinking at the level of a revolver or bolt-action... not even as complex as a semi-automatic. Energy weapons and railguns involve energy beyond the purely mechanical; a revolver functions on mechanics, with the bullet being propelled with chemical energy stored within itself.

[Grazzik]

I don't look at it in terms of what an object does, but how it is constructed.

A bow is a simple spring device that is maybe in the mind of the writers just on solid mass with a springy bit. Not accurate and rather lacking in understanding how a bow is constructed. A revolver is a comparatively complex piece - there is a cylinder that holds the bullets and is made up of 5 components, there is a hammer that strikes the bullet, there is the trigger mechanism that is a bunch of smaller pieces - even the cylinder release is a lever mechanism. So, much more complex than a long straight branch and some twine tied at either end.

So would I allow a revolver? If I did, I'd have to allow all mechanical guns, even muskets or a small cannon, but no energy, chemical, or coil/rail/gauss gun. No ammo (except maybe lead balls), no powder, no fuses.

However, my instinct is to say no, as the construct of a gun is substantially more than a simple bow and it probably doesn't take much to cross whatever mental threshold prevents the manifestation of complex mechanical items via tattoo.

[ShadowLogan]

Would it be reasonable to create a revolver?

No, the text for "All Simple Weapons" Tattoo specifically says "Modern weapons, revolvers, rifles, automatic and energy weapons are not possible."-WB2 pg86 (this is a pre-RUE printing of WB2) with the EMPHASIS being added by myself.

Now it doesn't really say why you can't create a M-Tat. moder weapon, but I suspect it might come down to the "intelligence" of the magic to extrapolate a working device from the image. The mechanical nature of the bow (and/or trigger for crossbow) or chain weapons might be something you can easily depict in the magic, but even a revolver or black powder weapon might not be as easy to "blueprint" for the magic if you get my drift (while these weapons are indestructible, they still have to safely contain an explosion, they also have hollow sections, etc).

Personally, I wouldn't stop a player from using up an M-Tat weapon depicting a banned weapon, BUT it would be non-functional (a handgun could still be used as a crude club or to pistol whip someone, a rifle with bayonet as a spear, etc) and made clear beforehand.

I'd also note that "bullets" for firearms likely can be made via M-Tatt process, however it would just be the actual bullet and not include the propellant section in what people commonly would think of as an unfired bullet. These "bullets" could be used in firearms, but require the player to either "assemble" the bullet (30min per level, not practical I suspect) or use a gun that keeps the "bullet" and "propellant" separate like a gas powered dart gun or old fashioned muzzle loaders (or tank gun when they load the round and propellant separately into the cannon).

Now if a player (or GM for an NPC) wants a rapid fire M-Tat. weapon I would suggest allowing them to create a repeating crossbow (China had them around 200AD), I'm not sure if that made it into W&A series, but it is a historical option.

Since we're on the topic of what weapons can you create with Magic Tattoos here are a few that might also be worth considering: Siege Equipment (arbalest, catapults, trebuchets, etc).

[darthauthor]

In my mind, IF you can conjure a dinosaur you can conjure Siege Equipment such as a catapult.
What is debatable, to me, is the P.P.E. cost.
I would want to scale the P.P.E. cost with the damage it does.

[taalismn]

Why can't it just be a physical manifestation that -resembles- a gun, but really works like a a regular energy-casting spell(lightning bolt or fireball worked into the gun-tattoo design)? No moving parts, just a visual mirage that can be mistaken for a gun(or at most as a technowizardry device).
Might even throw in a save vs magic.....an observer might, on a success, figure out it's not a real gun, but simply an elaborate add-on to a regular ol' fireball or TK bolt application.

Maybe the work of those non traditionalist Atlantean punks or wannabes who claim they're 'half-Atlantean'(yeah, right!)

[Grazzik]

While ShadowLogan is right, that's what the books say and I usually stay as close to RAW as is possible, I also appreciate Taalismn's point about creative magicks, particularly by a people that has roamed the megaverse doing all sorts of mystical experiments over the eons - as long as it doesn't unbalance the game, go for it. In fact, I'd buy the argument for energy weapon tats before projectile weapons as it would be more likely for the "gun" simply be a charged blob of ectoplasm that looks like a gun and shooting TK bolts that look like ion blasts or particle beams, than a manifestation of levers, springs and other mechanical bits and pieces.

[ShadowLogan]

I'm not saying there aren't creative ways to go about getting a similar effect as you could (within RAW) utilize one of the IIRC (atleast) 4x M-Tatts in the Power Category that essentially give the ability to shoot an elemental attack (fire or lightning) repeatedly for the duration of the power, some of which is emitted by the body, combine that with a Weapon Tattoo and you could give the illusion of a shooting weapon, granted this would be very PPE intensive (Weapon and Power Tatts, also have to manage the limit of 6x active tatts).

Also the option of allowing custom enchantments to beef up a magic weapon tattoo since we know magic weapons can come with ranged spell attacks (PF2E's magic weapon options). Though here some balancing might be necessary given the duration of the previous mentioned M-Tats duration and Weapon duration and overall PPE cost (those powers are like 5minute per level, the existing weapon enchantments are x3 that).