Who made the SAMAS

[Weaverchilde]

Does any know who made the SAMAS power Armor? I know the KLS made the GB, but who made the SAMAS... a book and page number would be great.

[Dustin Fireblade]

Well there is some info in the Japan book I beleive, can't recall how much history is there off hand, and that may just be limited to the Japanese company that made their version of the SAMAS.
Also some info in Spirit West regarding pre-Rifts SAMAS, the New West may have some and then there might be something in Chaos Earth as well.

[Weaverchilde]

So it was strictly a Japan/US invention? Seems out that none of the MiO groups have something similar in design

[Shin Kenshiro]

The SAMAS was built by a US/Japan joint venture involving Armatech in Japan, and it never says who the American company was. The description in Rifts Japan states that there were Japanese representatives from Armatech at the unveiling of the SAMAS, but the Americans were in uniform, which means that Armatech probably won the contract to design a new suit of power armor for either the Army or the USAF. As for what branch of the US used it, the Army and the Air Force did. The Navy and Marines used the armor and weapons found in Rifts Underseas.

[Mike Taylor]

Can Archie make a SAMAS? Yes. Hagan Lonovich wore a SAMAS-like suit (HPA Mark One Power Armor "Firebrand") to battle the Mechanoids. The New Navy? Not so sure if they could or if they did have any. It wouldn't be unreasonable for their Marines to have them. Maybe they did at one point in the past, but could not replace them.

[Kagashi]

I really think that the real reason why the New Navy does not have SAMAS is because it was written before Japan, which was prolly slated as the big unveiling of who created the SAMAS and they did not want to give it away until Japan was written.

As it stands now, the NN does NOT have the SAMAS, but I would think it would be similar to the Native American version if they ever did (as opposed to the NEMA version). Further more, it is more like a Marine unit rather than Navy.

Now in Aftermath, it mentions the NN has had contact with the Japanese, which means that if the NN ever had Samas and could not replace them, the could with Samurai Sams. Or simply find an interest in the Sam after 300 years, and start to emply them in their arsenol.

[MADMANMIKE]

..Clearly it was either Cyberworks or KLS. Since ARCHIE was a military multi-function manufacturing facility, it only makes sense that it/he would have the plans for all US military hardware.

..Since the background info is spread across different dimensions/settings, until Palladium comes out with a book stating that the one from Rifts is specifically designed by "X" company, you're left to decide for yourself.

..My guess would be KLS, as the Glitterboy was theirs; military contractors are often handed their competitors projects when something goes arry, so even if Cyberworks had it, initially Cyberworks was about computers not robot designs.

-Mike >8]

[Killer Cyborg]

The KLS corporation had a fetish for making everything they made out of laser resistant material, so I think that it is unlikely that they had anything to do with the SAMAS armor.

While ARCHIE made some SAMAS-like armor for Hagan, he could easily have cracked the design by analyzing captured suits over the years.
Since he hasn't ever made anything else that resembles a suit of SAMAS, I doubt that Cyberworks had anything to do with the creation either.

It was probably something that we haven't heard of yet.

[Shin Kenshiro]

I reread the Rifts Japan book and the SAMAS was designed by Armatech in Japan, who was the first foreign company to win a contract with the US Military to design a new power armor. So it was entirely a Japanese creation of the Armatech Corporation, with no help from KLS or any American company. This would also make it impossible for ARCHIE to have the blueprints initially. He might have acquired the plans for it from captured units. As for ARCHIE's manufacturing capability, he wouldn't be the one with the blueprints. Just because he's a supercomputer, doesn't mean they'd put something like that in his mainframe. Aberdeen's production facilities were initially separate from ARCHIE, so those plans would have been elsewhere in a factory.

On a personal note, I think the SAMAS was a US Army weapon, since they leave the fixed wing aircraft to the Air Force with the exception of some transport aircraft. The Air Force might have had a few squadrons, but I doubt they had the ability to manufacture their own. The US Marines/US Navy as shown in the New Navy went on a separate course with their own specialized weapons and power armor, as it usually does. Currently, alot of variation occurs when anything is used by both the Army and Navy. The SAMAS probably just wasn't cut out for sea duty and was passed over. That OR the New Navy had SAMAS, but lost them all over time and had to develop the Semper Fi PA in order to rebuild their forces.

[Shin Kenshiro]

The SAMAS is technically a "fixed-wing" aircraft as its wings do not rotate to generate lift.

The SAMAS is an infantry unit more than it could ever be called an aircraft, which is another reason I'd say it's Army equipment. Plus, it doesn't have the range of your standard fixed wing aircraft. A nuclear power source doesn't mean your engines can burn on forever before needing a cooling period. I'd say its combat range would be more in line with that of a light helicopter

[Tinker Dragoon]

In Erin Tarn's discussion of the SAMAS in Rifts Japan, Armatech is mentioned as the co-developers of the suit. The other developer(s) could have been some corporation, though I would guess it was more likely DARPA or some of the US armed services. KLS could have been involved with the Silver Eagle SAMAS, though with Armatech's license to produce Glitter Boy technology in Japan, it too is likely Armatech's work.

[Shin Kenshiro]

Also, if Air Force attitudes hold true then when the SAMAS came out they would consider it a "toy" much as they did the helicopter and dismiss it. This was partly what provided the impetus for armed helicopters, and allowed the Army to keep them.

Heeeeeey, Bingo Bingo. (Macross Plus, points go to whoever can correctly guess who said that)

Very true. The Air Force was probably at the time concentrating on Space in regards to Killer Sattelites, Orbitals and faster aircraft. Their job has always been get there really fast and fly overhead putting warheads on foreheads.

[Shin Kenshiro]

I'm betting the Sidewinder and Wild Weasel came into being after the USAF saw the effectiveness of the SAMAS and decided to experiment. Plus, the two came from Area 51, and if any of the rumors are true, most people in the USAF wouldn't even know about it, even the General Staff.

[Mike Taylor]

While ARCHIE made some SAMAS-like armor for Hagan, he could easily have cracked the design by analyzing captured suits over the years. Since he hasn't ever made anything else that resembles a suit of SAMAS, I doubt that Cyberworks had anything to do with the creation either.

Archie manufactures the Flying Titan, a Strategic Armor Military Exo-Skeleton. That's the closest thing to a SAMAS in his inventory.

[Killer Cyborg]

I'm betting the Sidewinder and Wild Weasel came into being after the USAF saw the effectiveness of the SAMAS and decided to experiment. Plus, the two came from Area 51, and if any of the rumors are true, most people in the USAF wouldn't even know about it, even the General Staff.

Area 51, huh?

That settles it.
It was aliens who designed the SAMAS armor...

[MADMANMIKE]

..Shin, reread that; It was co-developed by Armatech.

..The New Navy's Semper Fi is clearly derivative of the SAMAS, minus the wings (too much drag underwater) and replacing the engine with underwater systems.

..As to KLS and reflective armor, have you not read Chaos Earth? The SAMAS was originally refered to as the Silver Eagle, and it was reflective. Likewise in the same piece Shin refered to Erin said she remembered it being grey or Silver. And that was the prototype.

..KLS is still the most likely culpret.

..I'm just curious why there isn't a space variant on the suit in Mutants In Orbit, which is Rifts Space.

-Mike >8]

[Weaverchilde]

Which is why I asked. I want to write a Rifter update of MiO which will expand on such things and will update the Arkhon threat.

I actually have a SAMAS space variant designed as well as a new OCC for it which people seem to like.

[MADMANMIKE]

Actually the description says it's an exclusive variant for NEMA.

..No, it says "Rifts players may recognize it as a stylistic variation of the SAMAS. They are exclusive to NEMA."

..This was poorly worded. It cannot be a variant of the SAMAS in the gaming world as the SAMAS you would recognize it as a variant of won't become common for 300 years.

..Go back in time and comment "Gee, that guy over there looks like my buddy back in the future." No. Your buddy in the future looks like that guy over there who obviously is one of your buddies ancestors.

..So again, the description says it's exclusive to NEMA, but not that it's a variant, but rather you may see the similarities that would lead you to that misconception.

-Mike >8]

[The Artist Formerly]

Area 51, that makes it Lockheed-Martin's Skunk works. Now that site has been co-opted for other developers, but the vast majority of stuff to go through there is Lookheed-Martin. Odd's are that they were key in the development of the SAMAS, given Lockheed-Martin's reputation for inovation, the SAMAS' core technology is their baby.

[MADMANMIKE]

Mike, I'm trying to follow your logic there and it's not adding up. How is the Silver Eagle not a SAMAS variant?

..The Silver Eagle is the first production line SAMAS. It is not a variant. To say it is is like saying the Model T is a variant of the F-150. Just not so. Proto-types are not the first, they are the predecessors to the line, the practice designs if you will. NEMA is the first organization to field a SAMAS, it is the first organization to use them in mass production, ergo it's model is the first model of which all others are variants.

..I'd suspect the CS's reasoning behind not using the laser reflective armor comes from a lack of production facilities ("we need to get this out now instead of waiting until we can figure that out") and also a way to keep the already powerful black market from fielding knockoffs that are more resistant to damage from the main weapon in the CS arsenal, the combat laser.

..So they went with cheaper easier to produce versions, setting the trend against ultra powerful armor, sort of the way our government drew the line on automatic rifles in the home arsenal.

..Of course if you want to argue over why Kevin wrote it that way, you can do it until you're blue in the face, but what's the point? That's the way it is, so figure out a good back story (like my logical deduction) and move on.

..Am I alone in this? It seems so obvious...

-Mike >8]

[MADMANMIKE]

That is making no sense whatso ever Mike.

It's much established that the flying power armor used by the CS, their first SAMAS, is taken from the designs of the armor developed for the US military pre-Rifts, the PA-04A....In truth, it's the Coalition's SAMAS which is a variant of the original design and has the same claim to lineage as the Silver Eagle.

Of course it never helps the back story on things in Rifts changes book to book, author to author.

..Where do you find reference to the PA-04A? New West establishes that the first four models were combat, but it doesn't go deeper than that, that I can see in my cursory look....

..Look at it like this. We don't know everything that has happened in history as it happened. In war, the winners write the history books. People have opinions that skew their views of events and that is reflected in the histories they write.

..When fiction crosses into temporal lines, the same rules can be applied. The CS probably believes that line in CS War Campaign about the Air force developing the SAMAS and not getting it into production before the coming of the Rifts because their source of the history is obviously from records at an Air Force base.

..But now that NEMA is established as the primary military/law enforcement organization pre-cat., it can logically be deduced that the Air Force (who's primary purpose has been homeland defence) was sidelined and reduced in favor of funding NEMA. It would still be there, but in a diminished capacity and as such not the first to get use of the newest equipment.

-Mike >8]

[MADMANMIKE]

..I make no assumptions. You have missed or chosen to ignore the main flaw in your own arguement.

..Both references to the USA SAMAS have something in common. They came from facilities that were brand new but had not yet been used.

..NEMA was using the SAMAS before the cataclysm. No references to other SAMAS mention them having been fielded. There are three models that predate the ones you mention that are from the US Military.

..And read my previous post again; I specifically said that the NEMA SAMAS was not a prototype.

..Man, an engineer, huh? I'd expect a better grasp of logic than that. But in your defence, it was extremely early (or perhaps late for you)...

..Thanks for playing.

-Mike >8]

[Tinker Dragoon]

..Man, an engineer, huh? I'd expect a better grasp of logic than that. But in your defence, it was extremely early (or perhaps late for you)...

..Thanks for playing.

-Mike >8]

Stick to the topic and avoid the personal comments please.

[RockJock]

I look at it this way: All of the Pre-Rifts Samas models are basically the same with "stylistic" differences. Take any two, Wild Weasel, Sidewinder, Death's Head, Samuri, Silver Eagle, USA, whatever, and they are all S.A.M.A.S. armor. The basic design and basic configuration are very, very simliar. The biggest differences are from the Area 51 models, but even there they use the same type or sensor, muscular system, joints, ect with differences in armor, weapons and looks.

At most we are looking at the differnce between a Hornet and Super Hornet. Most models have differences in engine, or payload, or electronic, with the Super being a little newer, and a little better at everything then the original.

The CS Death's Head model could be based on the actual NEMA Silver Eagle model, with stylistic changes in weapon and armor to match technology Chitown could easily make, or it could be based on the USA model used by the Preserves, but also with different weapons and and slight changes in armor or thrusters, or it could be based on a unknow actual prototype we have never seen.

[MADMANMIKE]

..Do you guys not know a smilie when you see it? How can you take offence from that? I am sorry if you were, it was clearly not the intent.

..I agree with Rockjock, there are still variables that make the true answer unknown; It could have been originally developed and manufactured by SEARS for all we know.

..The evidence however suggests KLS, and like I said, the first working model in use as it stands now was the one used by NEMA. Your aguement stands, but doesn't hold water better than a colander.

-Mike >8] (oh look, another smilie!)

[Jefffar]

I think there is something that needs to be emphasized here, SAMAS is a class of PA's, not just an individual armour. A SAMAS medium or heavy power armour is an air mobile unit designed for heavy combat.

The Coalition States, Japan, Bandito Arms and Free Quebec all use SAMAS derived from the SAMAS model employed by America, Japan and NEMA. The New Navy, and CS Navy use what seem to be variants of the same SAMAS designed for underwater use.

Triax has developed their own SAMAS (Predator) and an aquatic styled SAMAS unit.

Cyberworks/Titan Robotics developed a pair of SAMAS class suits (Hagan's suit and the Heavy Titan Power Armour in one of the Rifters).

Ichito Robotics employs a SAMAS class armour in the Great Sword Soldier (check out it's flight capabilities).

Nazca's Solar Comat Armour, despite it's plasma funkiness, is also a SAMAS.

The Naruni Mecha Knight is a SAMAS.

The Kitanni have a SAMAS (Flying Fox).

The CCW and TGE both use flight capable armours, that conceiviebly fit the SAMAS designation, but they are also space capable.

The Avenger A-1 is in a class all by itself.

Of course I'm skipping lighter flying suits of Power Armour like the Flying Titan, CS Death Wing and the Terrain Hopper, but these are light units, not built for heavy combat. As such I don't think that they fit the SAMAS designation. Neither does an exoskeleton wearing a jet pack.

Also, certain specialized vehicles, like the Icarus Flight System and certain specialized 'borg chassis, like some of those found in Russia, fit the SAMAS role of air mobile, individual combat power. Since they are not power armours they are not true SAMAS.


Thus concludes my lecture on SAMAS 101.

[The Artist Formerly]

Alright, here's my thinking.

The USA SAMAS model: PA-04A is the core SAMAS from which all others we have seen to date flow from.

The developer is likely some aero-space company, maybe KLS, but just as likely not, as the US government sends out a list of needs for a machine to manufactures and sees who comes back with the best design. Since Archie doesn't have USA SAMAS, it unlikely that it was them. I like Lockheed-Martin for this one. The NEMA-SAMAS or Glitter SAM is likely a hybrid between the core manufacture and KLS. The CS SAMAS or Death's head SAMAS is simply a scaled back variant of the SAMAS PA-04A, just like it says in Spirit West. The Armatech SAMAS or the Samurai Jack SAMAS is a 04A variant as well. The Wild Weasel and Sidewinder were new (Lockheed-Martin) prototypes.

The role of the SAMAS is misclassified. Rail guns and urban combat/police work don't mix unless you goal is to level the city. Instead it's best use is as an infantry support unit, and the best bet would be the US marines, who need air capable firepower able to support the guys on the ground. The reason why their are no SAMAS in the New Navy is because the New Navy shows up in WB#7, before Kevin decided that every world book must include atleast one SAMAS variant before going to publication. All other discrepencies are due to Palladium continually rewriting the past to fit their latest permutation. It's not like they have a plan for this stuff or anything.

Here endth the lesson.

[Jefffar]

In it's core weapon configuration (rapid fire rail gun and mini-missile launchers) the American family of SAMAS isn't really a good MOUT unit unless you are 1) facing swarms of mega-damage protected combatants within the city and 2) unconcerned about collateral damage.

On Rifts Earth there are plenty of swarms of mega damage combatants threatening cities, and many cities have large sections that are armoured, reducing collateral damage from errant shots.

In Golden Age earth, this situation didn't exist.

However the SAMAS design permits a wide flexibility in weapon mounts. In addition to less-lethal loads for the mini-missile launchers one could expect to see a variety of machineguns, grenade launchers, sniper rifles and automatic shotguns. Grenade launchers and automatic shotguns in particular are suitable for use with less-lethal ammunition for law enforcement purpose. Meanwhile the SAMAS unit is virtually impervious to most of the weapons realisticly available to terrorists and criminals.



But the core ability of the SAMAS is in combat. I view them more as a version of airborne infantry, than true air support.

[Defender_X]

There is also the possibility that the Navy and Marines were letting the Air Force and Army work the bugs out of the samas before adding it to their own PA force. The sidewinder and wild weasel could also have been a join PA project between all branches based on experience with the Samas and Semper Fi PAs.

[The Artist Formerly]

But the core ability of the SAMAS is in combat. I view them more as a version of airborne infantry, than true air support.

Ehhh... I can see that too. Basicly we're talking about a super machine gun packing dude. Good for the same kinds of duties that an airborne trooper would be deployed for. Same time, the SAMAS does one hell of a job as air support for infantry units. And you can get alot more percission striking from a handful of SAMAS, especially with that missile pod, then you can from a single Joint Strike or Harrier or it's 2095 equivelant.

I think it is safe to assume that the US Armed forces were moving towards all powered armor configuration for it's line combat troops, and armored infantry would only be used in secondary roles and low threat zones. There needs to be something between enhanced body armor and the Glitterboy. Something along the lines of the Triax built Jager. Either a Power Armor unit or light robot, with a rail gun, a few missiles, a non-leathal or limited lethal weapons package (or variant armaments to that effect), that is immune to SDC weapons and molatov cocktails. Capable of fighting in urban combat, but also in rough terrain.

[Jefffar]

I agree that the SAMAS has great precision for in close work, but it lacks the striking power of rotary or fixed wing aircraft.

SAMAS are fast and relatively hard hitting troops, but they suffer many of the same limitations (and advantages) of infantry. Notably they have low armour an their weapons are primarily suited to a close range engagement (relatively speaking of course, but compare the SAMAS to the Glitterboy and you'll see my point). I look at SAMAS as a fast, light, yet hard hitting force like Airborne or Air Assault Troops, Cavalry or the new Stryker Brigades. They carry the day through speed of deployment and tactical and strategic surprise.

While the SAMAS does have a limited ability to provide fire support and air defence, it should be noted that all of the formations I just described also have the ability to provide their own fire support and air defence. It's just a question of at what level the capability is a part of the formation. In the described units, the capability is only added above the company level. In the SAMAS units, this capability is intrinsic with every individual soldier. This is what makes the SAMAS such a battlefield revolution.

With a small force of SAMAS, it is possible to execute missions that would require large numbers of Air Assault, Airborne, Cavalry or Stryker style troops and equipment. In addition, the SAMAS is very valuable to the SOF team. It is small, stealthy and fast, but is also relatively powerful. A great combination for a group that relies on stealth and speed, but usually has to sacrifice firepower.

For close air support, on the golden age battle field, the SAMAS just doesn't cut it. There will be too much in the way of air defence, and those opposing tanks, bots and power armours are too tough for the standard railgun and missiles.

On the other hand, in a "low intensity" conflict like Iraq or Afghanistan (I know, it's not low intensity if you're there getting shot at) the SAMAS is an excellent asset, combining some of the best traits of the helicopter, the LAV and the infantryman). There the SAMAS can probably do reasonably well in close air support role, but will also be tasked with more conventional ground roles.

For Golden Age SAMAS variants, I can see the basic SAMAS as the first major production model. Used by the United States, several NATO (or whatever) allies and Japan. The Shining Eagle is a second variant, with improved armour, sort of like the upgrade of the M1 with depleted uranium armor added in to make it virtually unbreakable. NEMA happened to get it's SAMASes just as the new armour came available, while the US armed forces and allies were probably about to, or in the process of, retrofitting existing SAMAS.

The Bandito Arms SAMAS appear to be propose built air force variants, optimized for superior manoeuvring, greater fire power and, of course, defence suppression. Their presence at an Air Force Base in Nevada contributes to this. I can also see them as being used for SOF teams.

As for branches, since I view the SAMAS as a form of mobile infantry, I would expect them to be a part of the Army and Marines. A small collection of variants for the Air Force and Navy also makes sense. As for why we don't see flying SAMAS with the New Navy . . . simple, the New Navy craft that survived the Cataclysm were all submarines!!! What good is a flying SAMAS underwater? I strongly suspect that a Standard SAMAS would have been a large part of the Marine and Navy surface groups, with only a handful of units attached to the submersible fleet (and thus easily lost or destroyed hundreds of years before the current Rifts story arc). The Semper Fi is probably derived from the SAMAS.

[The Artist Formerly]

I agree that the SAMAS has great precision for in close work, but it lacks the striking power of rotary or fixed wing aircraft.

SAMAS are fast and relatively hard hitting troops, but they suffer many of the same limitations (and advantages) of infantry. Notably they have low armour an their weapons are primarily suited to a close range engagement (relatively speaking of course, but compare the SAMAS to the Glitterboy and you'll see my point). I look at SAMAS as a fast, light, yet hard hitting force like Airborne or Air Assault Troops, Cavalry or the new Stryker Brigades. They carry the day through speed of deployment and tactical and strategic surprise.

While the SAMAS does have a limited ability to provide fire support and air defence, it should be noted that all of the formations I just described also have the ability to provide their own fire support and air defence. It's just a question of at what level the capability is a part of the formation. In the described units, the capability is only added above the company level. In the SAMAS units, this capability is intrinsic with every individual soldier. This is what makes the SAMAS such a battlefield revolution.

With a small force of SAMAS, it is possible to execute missions that would require large numbers of Air Assault, Airborne, Cavalry or Stryker style troops and equipment. In addition, the SAMAS is very valuable to the SOF team. It is small, stealthy and fast, but is also relatively powerful. A great combination for a group that relies on stealth and speed, but usually has to sacrifice firepower.

For close air support, on the golden age battle field, the SAMAS just doesn't cut it. There will be too much in the way of air defence, and those opposing tanks, bots and power armours are too tough for the standard railgun and missiles.

On the other hand, in a "low intensity" conflict like Iraq or Afghanistan (I know, it's not low intensity if you're there getting shot at) the SAMAS is an excellent asset, combining some of the best traits of the helicopter, the LAV and the infantryman). There the SAMAS can probably do reasonably well in close air support role, but will also be tasked with more conventional ground roles.

For Golden Age SAMAS variants, I can see the basic SAMAS as the first major production model. Used by the United States, several NATO (or whatever) allies and Japan. The Shining Eagle is a second variant, with improved armour, sort of like the upgrade of the M1 with depleted uranium armor added in to make it virtually unbreakable. NEMA happened to get it's SAMASes just as the new armour came available, while the US armed forces and allies were probably about to, or in the process of, retrofitting existing SAMAS.

The Bandito Arms SAMAS appear to be propose built air force variants, optimized for superior manoeuvring, greater fire power and, of course, defence suppression. Their presence at an Air Force Base in Nevada contributes to this. I can also see them as being used for SOF teams.

As for branches, since I view the SAMAS as a form of mobile infantry, I would expect them to be a part of the Army and Marines. A small collection of variants for the Air Force and Navy also makes sense. As for why we don't see flying SAMAS with the New Navy . . . simple, the New Navy craft that survived the Cataclysm were all submarines!!! What good is a flying SAMAS underwater? I strongly suspect that a Standard SAMAS would have been a large part of the Marine and Navy surface groups, with only a handful of units attached to the submersible fleet (and thus easily lost or destroyed hundreds of years before the current Rifts story arc). The Semper Fi is probably derived from the SAMAS.

I have to disagree with you. Four SAMs loaded with those missile pods in place of the railgun ammo pod mount bring a staggering amount of close support firepower to the mix (27 mini-missiles total). Toss in a decent pulse energy rifle and you're good to go. Alternately incease missile payload could be added by making use of a mini-missile rifle or some variant of the Medium Range Missile launcher seen in Rifts Mercs. The SAMAS' ability to navigate terrian that other larger craft would find difficult to move through, such as trees or moutains or urban enviroments (when you goal is to level the city) makes the SAMAS a premer infantry support vehicle. Plus one can have four SAMs on station for the same kind of resources that a single fixed wing aircraft can deliver. Better still, the SAMAS doesn't require a runway at all, can make use of the same ammo loads as the infantry. They can easily be concealed with minimal effort, and they add little to the supply chain needs. That lets the Marine force assign the SAMAS at the plattoon level, maybe one per squad. With the close support issues dealt with the Marines could let the Navy worry about using fixed wing aircraft and hitting the targets that require the apocolyptic firepower that they can bring to the party.

[Shin Kenshiro]

There is also the possibility that the Navy and Marines were letting the Air Force and Army work the bugs out of the samas before adding it to their own PA force. The sidewinder and wild weasel could also have been a join PA project between all branches based on experience with the Samas and Semper Fi PAs.

Actually, knowing how the Marine Corps operates, they were most likely waiting for the Army and Air Force to have the SAMAS around for 10-20 years before they bought something new. That way the Marines could get all the now outdated equipment and start re-using it.

United States Marine Corps...because why buy new, when you can get hand-me-downs for even cheaper?

[Jefffar]

Yes, it takes 4 SAMs to equal one fixed or rotary wing aircraft . . . and that's sort of kinda not really.

Look at the fire power of the CS helicopters, then compare that to the relative cost.

SAMs have their advantages for close air support, that is true, but it would take 4 SAMs to kill off that lone big bad Main Battle Tank, while that Helicopter can kill of about 4, from outside the range of the tank's air defence railgun. Most likely, if the helicopter pilot is smart, the tank crews wont' know there's an attack inbound until the platoon leader's machine looses it's turret to a volley of missiles fired from several miles away.

As for precision, who's to say the infantry doesn't have a laser designator system with them, giving them the ability to pinpoint the targets. Helicopter doesn't even need visual contact with the target. The SAMs need to close to visual range because all of their weapons are direct fire.

Look at the Army and close air support. Instead of using the AH-6, which is cheaper, smaller, more manouvreable, and harder to hit, as the primary gunship, the Army has gone for the bigger, more powerful AH-64. Why? In clsoe air support it's armour and firepower that speak. The AH-6 is only used in conjunction with SOF, where the special qualities of the bird offset it's lack of striking and staying power.

The SAM can do close air support, but the design compromises to make an agile, compact unit that is used for a wide number of roles, make it less effective than a dedicated close air support platform. The American Empire had the cash to build the SAMAS and the close air support aircraft, and so they would have done it.

The CS and the NGR can properly support their SAMAS class PAs with dedicated fixed wing and rotary craft. Many other nations (like Japan and FQ) don't have this option, so their SAMS are stuck doing close air support.

Thinking as an infantryman though, I know the SAMs overhead woudl be the most welcome sight I could see. The pilots of those things are not all that different in tactics and training than us ground humpers, they just get to move faster and hit harder. They can actually come down to our level, talk to us face to face and they are much better at picking out the baddies from the friendlies.

But when the the oscilating air circulation device is bombarded with fecal matter, that missile volley from a Black Lightning, or that bombing run from a Shrike is really going to make the difference, and that's who I'd call in.

SAMs are great, but you shouldn't send a Hummer to do an Abraham's work, and you shouldn't send a guy with a jet pack to do a helicopter's work.

Like you said TAF, the SAMs are a great infantry support system, but that doesn't mean they are the masters of close air support.

[The Artist Formerly]

Yes, it takes 4 SAMs to equal one fixed or rotary wing aircraft . . . and that's sort of kinda not really.

Look at the fire power of the CS helicopters, then compare that to the relative cost.

SAMs have their advantages for close air support, that is true, but it would take 4 SAMs to kill off that lone big bad Main Battle Tank, while that Helicopter can kill of about 4, from outside the range of the tank's air defence railgun. Most likely, if the helicopter pilot is smart, the tank crews wont' know there's an attack inbound until the platoon leader's machine looses it's turret to a volley of missiles fired from several miles away.

As for precision, who's to say the infantry doesn't have a laser designator system with them, giving them the ability to pinpoint the targets. Helicopter doesn't even need visual contact with the target. The SAMs need to close to visual range because all of their weapons are direct fire.

Look at the Army and close air support. Instead of using the AH-6, which is cheaper, smaller, more manouvreable, and harder to hit, as the primary gunship, the Army has gone for the bigger, more powerful AH-64. Why? In clsoe air support it's armour and firepower that speak. The AH-6 is only used in conjunction with SOF, where the special qualities of the bird offset it's lack of striking and staying power.

The SAM can do close air support, but the design compromises to make an agile, compact unit that is used for a wide number of roles, make it less effective than a dedicated close air support platform. The American Empire had the cash to build the SAMAS and the close air support aircraft, and so they would have done it.

The CS and the NGR can properly support their SAMAS class PAs with dedicated fixed wing and rotary craft. Many other nations (like Japan and FQ) don't have this option, so their SAMS are stuck doing close air support.

Thinking as an infantryman though, I know the SAMs overhead woudl be the most welcome sight I could see. The pilots of those things are not all that different in tactics and training than us ground humpers, they just get to move faster and hit harder. They can actually come down to our level, talk to us face to face and they are much better at picking out the baddies from the friendlies.

But when the the oscilating air circulation device is bombarded with fecal matter, that missile volley from a Black Lightning, or that bombing run from a Shrike is really going to make the difference, and that's who I'd call in.

SAMs are great, but you shouldn't send a Hummer to do an Abraham's work, and you shouldn't send a guy with a jet pack to do a helicopter's work.

Like you said TAF, the SAMs are a great infantry support system, but that doesn't mean they are the masters of close air support.

Well, your points are valid, and I know mine are. Odds are they used both. Four Sams on a single tank is a good bet, but it does eat resources. The last thing we need to figure in is space based weapons. Why put up any kind of an aircraft when you lase a MBT from space?

[The Artist Formerly]

Even in the Golden Age, space-based weapons would likely have been used more for ASAT and strategic targets. Tactical-level targeting from space would be problematic, at best.

It would appear that the orbital community of PA 103 can make those kinds of shots...

[The Artist Formerly]

Even in the Golden Age, space-based weapons would likely have been used more for ASAT and strategic targets. Tactical-level targeting from space would be problematic, at best.

It would appear that the orbital community of PA 103 can make those kinds of shots...

Shooting down something coming into orbit is an entirely different thing than hitting a small target on the ground.

See, I would think hitting something traveling at escape velocity would be much harder to hit the a MBT puttering around at 70 MPH...

[The Artist Formerly]

Well, beyond the fact that something climbing out of the gravity well has a fairly predictable path...

Need to know where to look, then pick your target out of any ground clutter (weather conditions allowing), and then there is the question of range...which the Orbitals satellites really don't have (and on that one, argue with Palladium).

No, something moving to leave earth's atmosphere is capable of moving in three dimenions, where as a tank is only moving in two, relitive to satillite. If out going rockets were easy to hit SDI wouldn't have been such a giant waste of cash.

[Dustin Fireblade]

Reading something there in Japan under ArmaTech that went to the effect that there was a prototype and ArmaTech was hired to perfect that. It doesn't say who built the prototype but for some reason I came away with the impression that it was a military project first.

[Jefffar]

An object trying to leave earth's gravity is an easier target than a battle tank on the surface of the earth fro a number of reasons.

1) Signature: Clawing your way up through gravity expends a lot more enrgy than crawling on the surface. Think of a space shuttle launch, look how much power is being pumped out there. The US currently has satelites in orbit that can warn it of a ballistic missile launch virtually anywhere in the world, in a matter of minutes. I don't see a similar network able to pick up tanks rolling along.

2) Just because it's flying, doesn't mean three dimensions of manouvreability: Relating to the power use and the velocities required to get into orbit, a craft trying to get to space is going to take a fairly predictable path, with mostly straight lines or very gentle curves. Radical manouvres bleed velocity, thus reducing the chances that the object will reach space. Radical manouvres also increas G-forces, which are allready pretty intense in a vehicle that is reaching for space. The reason the SR-71 had a 3 mile turn radius at speed wasn't because it was umanouvreable, it was because if it tried a tighter turn the G-forces would have torn it apart.

In short, an object launching from surface to space will be relatively easy to spot, and have a pretty predictable path. Additionally since only a slight deviation from that path might prevent the craft from reaching orbit, even a minor hit could scrub the mission.

This is part of the reason why the SDI system focused on attacking launch vehicles during the initial launch and boost phase, rather than when they were in orbit. This is also why the Americans could easily detect SCUD missiles when they launched, but were unsuccessful in using air and space resources to destroy the launch vehicles.

[The Artist Formerly]

Wait a second. I know Phal is an engineer, and I am not, but I don't buy that.

A object in flight can go north, south, east or west, increase or decrease it's rate of climb. Plus it has the effects of wind shear acting on it and a gradual drop off in gravity and the possibility of fragmentation (such as with a multipul payload vehicle or multi stage vehicle). Not to mention The weapon platform has to account for all of these things. A tank can only go four directions.

[Jefffar]

Just because a flying platform can alter it's path, doesn't mean it is an easy thing to do.

During an attempt to reach orbit, you are clawing against the force of gravity in a pretty major way. Most flying object generate aerodynamic lift to help counter the force fo gravity, in msot cases, a craft trying to reach orbit will run out of atmosphere to produce lift before it gets to orbital altitudes. Instead it has to rely on raw power (thrust to those fancy engineer types).

To make that thrust work, you need a lot of fuel (look at the Space Shuttle, the big brown tank is all fuel, and the two white Solid Rocket Boosters are about 90% fuel by volume), true many rifts vehicles substitute nuclear power, but you still need a big engine (or more likely several big engines) to transmit that power into thrust.

Basically, to actualyl reach orbit, you have to go with an all or nothing approach. You have to go straight there atmaxi mum thrust to overcoem the pull of gravity. If you don't use maximum thrust, or your course doesn't take the shortest available route, there's a really good chance you won't make it.

In the situation of an ascent under combat conditions, a manouvre designed to throw off an attack will very likely use up too much of your available power, and force yourself out of position to reach orbit.

or you can build thick armour and let the attack hit you. This cuases problems because 1) the armour is heavy, making it harder for you to reach orbit and 2) the hit still might throw your trajectory off enough to prevent you from reaching orbit.

If you aren't beleiving me on how close a thing the orbit or not question is, look at the banks of computers in NASA mission control and on the Space Shuttle alld evoted to making everything work perfectly. Because if it doesn't work perfectly, well don't take my word for it, check out what happens when it doesn't: http://www.amfcse.org/Those%20Honored.htm

Reaching orbit is hard enough without being shot at. Under fire it's virtually impossible.

Again, look at the idea of the SDI systems, they were designed to kill missiles during launch, rather than try to waste the launchers. Apparently the boys at the pentagon thought this was an easier method.

Caveats: There are of course ways around every problem.

The stealthy, anti-grav engined Naruni Crescent Moon for example, has a low enough signature to avoid being shot at, making it unecissary for it to make adjustments in its trajectory.

The Splugies can open a rift in space, far enough from earth that the orbitals don't just fill it with missiles, and send in a space fleet to attack the orbitals from behind. No need to make a dangerous attack up a gravity well.

[The Artist Formerly]

Caveats: There are of course ways around every problem.

The stealthy, anti-grav engined Naruni Crescent Moon for example, has a low enough signature to avoid being shot at, making it unecissary for it to make adjustments in its trajectory.

The Splugies can open a rift in space, far enough from earth that the orbitals don't just fill it with missiles, and send in a space fleet to attack the orbitals from behind. No need to make a dangerous attack up a gravity well.

I was going to tear your agurment apart using such caveats and a "best guess" at 2090ish tech.

[RockJock]

Good lord, this is an old thread.

[Zer0 Kay]

Armaratech, Armortech, something like that.

Smiling_Bandit - Almost as bad as that wench Tarn

As bad as your use of the laughing man emblem?

[Zer0 Kay]

It's interesting that Japan was contracted to design the SAMAS but many of them were found at Groom Lake test facility (Area 51, if your one of those people who say what when I say Groom Lake). Usually no other country, unless the unit was stolen or gained by defection, would know of a test vehicle there never mind manufacture it. So now my question is who originally designed the SAMAS that was being tested and Area 51 and had the build contract pulled from under them. Probably one of the trusted American companys that have always done it... unless they'd all failed (Lokheed Martin/General Dynamics, McDonald Douglas, Boeing etc...). Now I know there is nothing in canon for this but it just doesn't make sense that three nations that form the American Empire have a craft, that will be tested at a top secret location, designed and constructed by a foreign nation. Why? Because even if they have the company sign a contract that they will not divulge any information they will not be able to keep them in check like they would stateside companies, there is nothing keeping the foreign nation from selling the data to other nations except pollitical pressure and what would a foreign nations business care what pressures are put on the country they operate in? Granted in Japan if the people still beleive in honor it may be otherwise, beleiving that they will bring dishonor to the entire nation. If, though, they have become a megacorporation they will be interested only in what income they can gain.

[grandmaster z0b]

It's interesting that Japan was contracted to design the SAMAS but many of them were found at Groom Lake test facility (Area 51, if your one of those people who say what when I say Groom Lake). Usually no other country, unless the unit was stolen or gained by defection, would know of a test vehicle there never mind manufacture it. So now my question is who originally designed the SAMAS that was being tested and Area 51 and had the build contract pulled from under them. Probably one of the trusted American companys that have always done it... unless they'd all failed (Lokheed Martin/General Dynamics, McDonald Douglas, Boeing etc...). Now I know there is nothing in canon for this but it just doesn't make sense that three nations that form the American Empire have a craft, that will be tested at a top secret location, designed and constructed by a foreign nation. Why? Because even if they have the company sign a contract that they will not divulge any information they will not be able to keep them in check like they would stateside companies, there is nothing keeping the foreign nation from selling the data to other nations except pollitical pressure and what would a foreign nations business care what pressures are put on the country they operate in? Granted in Japan if the people still beleive in honor it may be otherwise, beleiving that they will bring dishonor to the entire nation. If, though, they have become a megacorporation they will be interested only in what income they can gain.

Weren't those versions SAMAS variants like the Wild Weasel and Sidewinder ? In that case it could be that the original SAMAS was developed by Armatech and then the other variants (WW, Sidewinder and Silver Eagle) were developed by other companies from the original prototype. The WW and Sidewinder were being developed at Groom Lake whilst the Silver Eagle was perhaps developed by KLS after NEMA put out it's own contract for a newer version of the SAMAS. As Findar pointed out the prototype and the design would still belong to the USA military, so they have a right to use it as a base for updated designs and NEMA could put out tenders for new contracts unless it was specifically stated in ArmaTechs contract that they couldn't.

[cornholioprime]

In Erin Tarn's discussion of the SAMAS in Rifts Japan, Armatech is mentioned as the co-developers of the suit. The other developer(s) could have been some corporation, though I would guess it was more likely DARPA or some of the US armed services. KLS could have been involved with the Silver Eagle SAMAS, though with Armatech's license to produce Glitter Boy technology in Japan, it too is likely Armatech's work.

Confirmed by material in Rifts: New West, page 181;
at Area 51, Bandito Arms found prototypes of the SAMAS.

Since it is HIGHLY unlikely that even such a Japanese Mega-corp like Armatech would have been allowed to/into Area 51, chances are that the original idea was probably developed by the US (and perhaps by extension, the aforementioned Defense Advanced Research Planning Agency), and perhaps improved upon by Armatech...

[cornholioprime]

I'm betting the Sidewinder and Wild Weasel came into being after the USAF saw the effectiveness of the SAMAS and decided to experiment. Plus, the two came from Area 51, and if any of the rumors are true, most people in the USAF wouldn't even know about it, even the General Staff.

Area 51, huh?

That settles it.
It was aliens who designed the SAMAS armor...

Nuh-Uh!!

It was Jeff Goldblum on an Apple Computer.......

[Zer0 Kay]

It's interesting that Japan was contracted to design the SAMAS but many of them were found at Groom Lake test facility (Area 51, if your one of those people who say what when I say Groom Lake). Usually no other country, unless the unit was stolen or gained by defection, would know of a test vehicle there never mind manufacture it. So now my question is who originally designed the SAMAS that was being tested and Area 51 and had the build contract pulled from under them. Probably one of the trusted American companys that have always done it... unless they'd all failed (Lokheed Martin/General Dynamics, McDonald Douglas, Boeing etc...). Now I know there is nothing in canon for this but it just doesn't make sense that three nations that form the American Empire have a craft, that will be tested at a top secret location, designed and constructed by a foreign nation. Why? Because even if they have the company sign a contract that they will not divulge any information they will not be able to keep them in check like they would stateside companies, there is nothing keeping the foreign nation from selling the data to other nations except pollitical pressure and what would a foreign nations business care what pressures are put on the country they operate in? Granted in Japan if the people still beleive in honor it may be otherwise, beleiving that they will bring dishonor to the entire nation. If, though, they have become a megacorporation they will be interested only in what income they can gain.

Weren't those versions SAMAS variants like the Wild Weasel and Sidewinder ? In that case it could be that the original SAMAS was developed by Armatech and then the other variants (WW, Sidewinder and Silver Eagle) were developed by other companies from the original prototype. The WW and Sidewinder were being developed at Groom Lake whilst the Silver Eagle was perhaps developed by KLS after NEMA put out it's own contract for a newer version of the SAMAS. As Findar pointed out the prototype and the design would still belong to the USA military, so they have a right to use it as a base for updated designs and NEMA could put out tenders for new contracts unless it was specifically stated in ArmaTechs contract that they couldn't.

Good point I guess it was only the two variants.