Ramjet rounds

[Alrik Vas]

spray doesn't exist in current rifts and the system for it arbitrarily has nothing to do with your skill.

There are still weapons with spray capabilities listed in the various game books (first coming to mind is the FQ pulse laser that uses the old machine gun rules) so there are rules for that form of attack still in the current version of rifts.

while a singular example can be used as a precedent for a rule, I don't believe it makes the rule itself. palladium has a large number of weapons with special abilities that change the rules, but they're generally specific to those weapons alone. also, is FQ pre RUE? Pre GMG?

lastly, it still doesn't change the fact that the spray rules don't work well for suppression, as a no bonus roll with a -6 penalty has a 35% chance of making a random person dodge, and no chance if they have partial cover as you can't make a called shot for them.

you can use it with some adjustments, but the GM has to step in on it, which means you could also just make your own rule that fits with the current state of play.

[Tor]

The GLs have versatility on their side compared to the Ramjet rounds being able to be used in much wider roles based on what type of grenade they fire/use. Granted this is not a fair comparison since a GL and projectile fill different roles.

They're also prohibitively expensive. Like more expensive than a decent suit of MDC armor, which many people won't be able to afford.

In terms of actual firepower though Ramjets aren't economical for mega-damage combat. We can see that in the burst cost vs EXP bullets from the same manufacturer. Compared to energy energy weapons the cost to recharge a standard Eclip (RMB) is 1500credits (if we assume a 20shot average payload that means 75credits per shot or 100 for a Long Eclip), to get in this range for damage you are firing 20round bursts from a RJ and you might still not be doing the same damage).

As mentioned already: bursts are less effective, so I am considering this on the basis of those who are going for the superior accuracy and ammo economy of 1 shot per action. Particularly since this is what many energy weapons are limited to, anyway.

Cost-per-damage is also not the only consideration here. Cost-per-shot is too. Consider example:
*a laser gun fires a blast that inflicts an average of 10 MD and costs 100 credits to do it
*a ramjet round inflicts 1 MD for 10 credits and can fire 10 shots for 100 credits

If you are shooting multiple targets that don't have high MDC protection, like a half dozen naked Crazies, which would you rather have?

Economy is a big reason why people will buy SDC weapons to deal with people who don't have MDC protection, and the benefit of a ramjet is you can use it to inflict MD with an SDC weapon you already have. You don't have to make a big down-payment to buy a MD energy weapon.

Another interesting consideration: evading crime. Since anyone with 'object read' could tell what a weapon was used for, you might want to destroy it after killing someone with it. This is less of a sacrifice if you used a pistol that cost 1-2 hundred credits (via ramjet round) rather than a laser pistol that cost 10-20 thousand credits.

As I said before, this is more of a bottom-feeder thing but... I think bottom-feeder is probably what the majority of people on Rifts Earth ARE. Most people are going to be poor and need a quick fix. They may not have the luxury of the long-term benefit of owning a super-efficient MD rifle.

It's like how it can be cheaper to own a home than rent: that's all cool, but some people are just too poor or considered too unreliable to be given a loan for that much, so they can't benefit from this, it's too hand-to-mouth.

Grenades have that area effect working in their advantage allowing one to attack multiple targets at once (if they are close enough). So you may spend more per attack, but you also have the potential to damage more targets with it making it more cost effective.

Agreed, in the right situations. I wouldn't want to be lobbing grenades about in a bar fight or an alleyway confrontation. They're the cheap other side of the coin to ramjets I guess. The lower-radius ones have less liability which is nice.

[Nox Equites]

In theory you can make ramjet for any large bore conventional direct fire artillery pieces. The rules don't exactly exist, but if you want to do it it should be feasible and you might get conventional arty with real range instead of the pissant stuff currently statted.

[wyrmraker]

In theory you can make ramjet for any large bore conventional direct fire artillery pieces. The rules don't exactly exist, but if you want to do it it should be feasible and you might get conventional arty with real range instead of the pissant stuff currently statted.

One example of what you mentioned is the primary weapon for the X-4600 Sharpshooter (Triax 2, p.148). It uses a rail gun to propel a round down the barrel, which then ignites a ramjet to get to appropriate speed. Using these two ideas, it wouldn't be terribly difficult to envision and determine stats for a direct fire artillery piece mounted on, say, a ley line train or something similar.

[ShadowLogan]

They're also prohibitively expensive. Like more expensive than a decent suit of MDC armor, which many people won't be able to afford.

Many people probably don't have a reason to own a GL or suit of armor though. This isn't exactly a good comparison because they fill different roles.

As mentioned already: bursts are less effective, so I am considering this on the basis of those who are going for the superior accuracy and ammo economy of 1 shot per action. Particularly since this is what many energy weapons are limited to, anyway.

I do think you are overly simplifying this issue:
Energy Weapons:
-Have greater range than a RJ by type (heavy weapons might be the exception), so an Energy Pistol out ranges a RJ Projectile Pistol. And a Energy Rifle out ranges a RJ Projectile Rifle.
-Energy Weapons can do more damage in the same amount of time as a RJ in single shot ROF, to compete here RJs have to burst in ROF which lowers their accuracy.
-RJ bursts can end up costing as much as a single energy blast depending on the energy weapon, and might still not do as much damage or reach as far.

Consider this:
-Drawing out a battle with single shot only firing can incur addition costs: like repairing armor, target(s) get hostages/humanshield, etc
-per SB1o it costs 600+ credits per 1 MD (they have it per 10MD, so I moved the decimal) for repairs. So per shot, it costs more to fix MD armor than it does to damage it. So the faster you can resolve (MD or SD) combat, the cheaper it can be. It is potential hidden costs like this that can make it a more expensive shot in the short term, but long term it works out cheaper

SDC weapons do have their place don't get me wrong, I'd say even RJs have their place, but the combination is not a good stand-in for a true MD capable weapon when such a weapon is called for. In some respects RJs aren't a good fit for either SD or MD combat, they are either overkill for SD combat, but at the same time underpowered for MD combat.

If I had to worry about a half-dozen "naked" crazies, I'd go for the energy weapon instead of an RJ.

[glitterboy2098]

Why would Wellington Industries make more money selling the other stuff?

Because WI started as a northern gun splinter group selling energy weapons and advanced gear. They've had decades of brand recognition for those items, while ramjet rounds have only been on the market for a few years.

Plus ramjet rounds are a new concept. For three centuries the only effective way to inflict MD was energy weapons, railguns, or big explosives. The idea that you can do MD with regular guns is new and going to be facing a lot of skepticism.
Plus ramjets aren't really that impressive. Single rounds in common calibers barely even do MD. (Really they do an average of 100 SDC and so can effect MD targets.) So to get measurable MD ability you need an assault rifle or SMG, which aren't all that common. And even then you only really get about 1d4 MD on a long burst. Which is worse than most laser pistols.and with most assault rifles and smg's you only get 5-6 such bursts per mag, instead of the 20-30 of the laser pistol. And the assault rifles magazines are a lot bulkier and you can't carry as many. So a ramjet user is going to have fewer units of fire and need resupply more often.
Ramjets may seem cheaper but by the time you account for the difference in overall damage, and logistical support, they end up not that much cheaper than buying a basic laser rifle.

[Shark_Force]

the main advantage is the drastically lower up-front cost. you probably already own an SDC weapon if you have need for one, which means the only cost is the ammo, you don't need to buy (or carry) a 20,000 credit weapon.

so, as said, it's a good choice for someone who doesn't have urgent need for the best MD weapons, but doesn't want to have no MD weapon at all; a town militia can have 50 people with a few clips of ramjet rounds at a low cost. it isn't really a great option. it's just a less bad option than nothing, which is what most people who use it would have if they weren't using ramjet rounds.

[say652]

I think in the Mercenaries Book, it said the weapon must be converted to fire the mdc ammunition.

[flatline]

I think in the Mercenaries Book, it said the weapon must be converted to fire the mdc ammunition.

Please check again. I don't recall seeing such a thing mentioned and that's the kind of detail i'm usually pretty good at catching.

-flatline

[wyrmraker]

Just read it. The ramjet ammunition is limited in calibers, but there is no mention of the need to modify the existing weapo. Mercenaries, p. 103

[Borast]

If you are shooting multiple targets that don't have high MDC protection, like a half dozen naked Crazies, which would you rather have?

Even with the 3D6x10SDC damage to "soft" targets?
I'll take the MDC pistol. If I'm aiming right, I can possibly take-out several targets per trigger pull.

Grenades have that area effect working in their advantage allowing one to attack multiple targets at once (if they are close enough). So you may spend more per attack, but you also have the potential to damage more targets with it making it more cost effective.

Agreed, in the right situations. I wouldn't want to be lobbing grenades about in a bar fight or an alleyway confrontation. They're the cheap other side of the coin to ramjets I guess. The lower-radius ones have less liability which is nice.

Why not? Tear gas, smoke, and other non-lethals can be quite effective. After all, a single spray of pepper spray can clear-out a fairly large building if sparyed in the right spot!

I think in the Mercenaries Book, it said the weapon must be converted to fire the mdc ammunition.

Please check again. I don't recall seeing such a thing mentioned and that's the kind of detail i'm usually pretty good at catching.

-flatline

I agree say - I just checked the MH, GMG, and RUE and found no such mention.
I am not saying that it was not re-ruled as such in a later edition, just that I could not find it. I also admit that I vaguely remember seeing something similar (just like the CFT rounds first being able to be fired from an SDC pistol, but suddenly not in later books).

[masslegion]

I don't have time yo read three pages of dialog, but although a little unconventional for a marksman weapon if you can get a hold of it you can use a Naruni NE-800R missile assault system from phase world sourcebook pg 57. With smart missile they are +4 yo strike and dodge with 2 actions to try and hit your target and a 2 mile range. For those hard target s you can fire a burst of 4*6D6.

[Tor]

Energy Weapons:
-Have greater range than a RJ by type (heavy weapons might be the exception), so an Energy Pistol out ranges a RJ Projectile Pistol. And a Energy Rifle out ranges a RJ Projectile Rifle.

This is usually a major advantage, agreed. However it would not be much of a factor for battles within cities or ghettos where a lot of buildings and other stuff would get in the way. For that, a couple hundred feet is pretty adequate, and still a major advantage over stuff like a vibro blade or grenade.

-Energy Weapons can do more damage in the same amount of time as a RJ in single shot ROF, to compete here RJs have to burst in ROF which lowers their accuracy.

I'm saying higher damage over time doesn't matter if 1 shot can kill or disable your opponent.

Also if you have a numbers advantage over your opponent, you can add up the damage-per-action by them all firing their weapons at once. The cheaper cost will allow more troops to be equipped.

-Drawing out a battle with single shot only firing can incur addition costs: like repairing armor, target(s) get hostages/humanshield, etc

This is entirely true. When it comes to opponents with MDC protection, this is where higher-MD weapons would shine.

Weapons that can kill SDC targets for cheap would be in higher demand, however.

I'm not saying that ramjets can compete with MD energy weapons on all fronts, just saying they have a niche to fill.

-per SB1o it costs 600+ credits per 1 MD (they have it per 10MD, so I moved the decimal) for repairs. So per shot, it costs more to fix MD armor than it does to damage it. So the faster you can resolve (MD or SD) combat, the cheaper it can be. It is potential hidden costs like this that can make it a more expensive shot in the short term, but long term it works out cheaper

All of which can be ignored if the person using the ramjet round (or their target) can't afford MDC protection and is going to die either way if he gets hit.

the combination is not a good stand-in for a true MD capable weapon when such a weapon is called for.

They are if you don't have much money (and thus it's the only ranged MD you can obtain) and/or if you want to equip large numbers. It's kind of like the Warmonger issue.

In some respects RJs aren't a good fit for either SD or MD combat, they are either overkill for SD combat, but at the same time underpowered for MD combat.

Overkill is a good fit if you want to kill someone.

If I had to worry about a half-dozen "naked" crazies, I'd go for the energy weapon instead of an RJ.

That would cost you more money.

Curtis Roberts (Mercs 60) uses paired Colt .45s (I assume automatic pistols considering his WP skill) with Ramjets and makes it work. Obv. part of that is fitting his motif but he also uses an L-20 so he's not dumb, he just realizes that Ramjets are more affordable things for certain situations than using your laser rifle.

Come to think of it: I only just now realized: this is a pretty good counter for guys with Impervious to Energy or Invulnerability, no? For that reason alone I'd want one. Otherwise you're going to need a rail gun, missile launcher, frag grenade launcher, etc. Prob the best alternative would be the pump pistol. Their high-damage rounds cost you a good bit though, so it could be overkill when you're facing a naked ItE mage.

The idea that you can do MD with regular guns is new and going to be facing a lot of skepticism.

If anything that would increase the value since someone wielding it would be underestimated.

Think of how they test whether a Juicer is MDC by firing an SDC pistol into his arm. You could cripple him if you substituted a ramjet for it.

Also if the CS bans these as 'cop killer' bullets then they must have SOME notability by this point. A CS ban would give them notoriety.

Plus ramjets aren't really that impressive. Single rounds in common calibers barely even do MD. (Really they do an average of 100 SDC and so can effect MD targets.) So to get measurable MD ability you need an assault rifle or SMG, which aren't all that common.

Aren't common compared to what?

Do we have any data in any book to indicate that SDC weapons like these are less common than any kind of MDC Weapon? Legitimately curious.

These weapons are lower-tech so probably easier to make, and they're lower-cost, so easier to buy. This leads me to think they are vastly MORE common.

Also 1 MD is "measurable" in my book. It's all you need.

And even then you only really get about 1d4 MD on a long burst. Which is worse than most laser pistols.and with most assault rifles and smg's you only get 5-6 such bursts per mag, instead of the 20-30 of the laser pistol. And the assault rifles magazines are a lot bulkier and you can't carry as many. So a ramjet user is going to have fewer units of fire and need resupply more often. Ramjets may seem cheaper but by the time you account for the difference in overall damage, and logistical support, they end up not that much cheaper than buying a basic laser rifle.

I'd ask you not keep bringing up the bursts, agree that they suck, I am arguing for their utility for single shots only.

Rather than arguing in terms of assault rifles (the higher damage Ramjets that do 1d4 each shot are more expensive anyway) my approach is more arguing the utility of pistol ammo.

Even with the 3D6x10SDC damage to "soft" targets?

Yes, an average of 105 damage is pretty decent. Sure, you could wing them with 30 and they'll take another, but even that will still throw them off pretty well.

I'll take the MDC pistol. If I'm aiming right, I can possibly take-out several targets per trigger pull.

If only we had rules for that...

Why not? Tear gas, smoke, and other non-lethals can be quite effective. After all, a single spray of pepper spray can clear-out a fairly large building if sparyed in the right spot!

Right spot being key. They are good options, but would not be appropriate if you or your allies will be caught by the gas.

I don't have time yo read three pages of dialog, but although a little unconventional for a marksman weapon if you can get a hold of it you can use a Naruni NE-800R missile assault system from phase world sourcebook pg 57. With smart missile they are +4 yo strike and dodge with 2 actions to try and hit your target and a 2 mile range. For those hard target s you can fire a burst of 4*6D6.

and it only costs you 80 000 credits for the 800-R and 32 000 credits for the 4 smart micro-missiles. Why aren't thousands of city rats running around with this?

[Borast]

I'll take the MDC pistol. If I'm aiming right, I can possibly take-out several targets per trigger pull.

If only we had rules for that...

SIGH... True. After all, according to Pally rules, If I'm standing 5 metres from my friend - and not wearing a stitch of MDC on my delicate SDC hide - and he's hit by a SR frag missile, I take no damage whatsoever. The frags, which are moving at extremely high (super sonic?) speeds stop at 4.6 metres and fall to the ground...the shockwave stops at 4.6 metres, the heat, etc...Heck, as long as I am 1 cm from the blast radius of a nuke, I take no damage at all!

But, then, I can sink the QEII with a .22 pistol with only a couple hundred rounds at most. So much for real world physics in a fantasy world! lol

[Killer Cyborg]

I'll take the MDC pistol. If I'm aiming right, I can possibly take-out several targets per trigger pull.

If only we had rules for that...

SIGH... True. After all, according to Pally rules, If I'm standing 5 metres from my friend - and not wearing a stitch of MDC on my delicate SDC hide - and he's hit by a SR frag missile, I take no damage whatsoever. The frags, which are moving at extremely high (super sonic?) speeds stop at 4.6 metres and fall to the ground...the shockwave stops at 4.6 metres, the heat, etc...Heck, as long as I am 1 cm from the blast radius of a nuke, I take no damage at all!

There is some precedent for explosions inflicting lower damage beyond their normal radius, mostly in Ninjas & Superspies.
I always assumed that the fragments and explosive force extended beyond the radius to some extent, but that it was mostly just SDC damage at that point, so Palladium didn't bother listing it.
Maybe that's not what they intended, but it's a sensible way to play it.