Killer Cyborg's Great Rifts Japan Debate

[Dr. Doom III]

Six demon seas.

I see pictures of two of them on RMB p.158/159 (color plates), but I can't find a map of the other four. Are they mentioned in the text?

Forgot about the one off South Africa. Just remembered the 4 plus the one in the Med.
It wasn't the main book either (thought it was one of the color pics) but it certainly wasn't new in Japan.
Even if it was I surprised KS didn't know about them they weren't in it and forgotten. They are in the GMG after all.

[Gomen_Nagai]

who the hell is pruning my posts, they better stop that.
as I said before, ..


This argument is getting silly. KC is just venting cause he wants to kill everyone with his 1d6 MD laser pistol while wearing bushman armor and become king of the sandbox!

[grandmaster z0b]

Six demon seas.

I see pictures of two of them on RMB p.158/159 (color plates), but I can't find a map of the other four. Are they mentioned in the text?

Forgot about the one off South Africa. Just remembered the 4 plus the one in the Med.
It wasn't the main book either (thought it was one of the color pics) but it certainly wasn't new in Japan.
Even if it was I surprised KS didn't know about them they weren't in it and forgotten. They are in the GMG after all.

All six triangles were in BTS, so I'm pretty sure that KS always knew they were there. IIRC they were first mentioned in WB2 Atlantis in regards to Rifts.

[Zer0 Kay]

my god, this shouldn't even be a debate, I think alot of the people seeking these arguments are insane and should stay on their medications

You've noticed I quietly pulled out of this debate...

I said my piece and washed my hands of it as well.

yup same here

You just like commenting for absolutely NO reason don't you

as do you huh?

Yup

well then its settled

what is? Oh wait I'm supposed to disagree. Nuh uh

i would like to hear your thoughts on this topic

Uh... Which topic these nests or the actual thread?

[Zer0 Kay]

KC,

Ok, the following are givens.

1) Japan was, originally, viewed as a destroyed ruin of broken islands.
2) Japan is now different since WB8:Japan arrived.
3) You don't like the changes introduced by WB8, feeling the prevoius was superior.

And . . .

I eagerly await the product of your imagination describing your set up in Japan.

In my game world, Japan on Rifts Earth is a pretty quiet place that's almost entirly devoid of MDC capabilities and MDC threats.
Other than a few fishing villages, it's wilderness.

Frankly, that's how I think most of Rifts Earth should be... low (or zero) population, low-tech, low-powered.
What's the point of having an apocalypse if every nation on the planet rebuilds itself, and there are cities everywhere?

The Japan book has some decent stuff in it, but none of it is worth unmaking Kev's decision not to include Japan in the big picture of Rifts Earth. Every other futuristic cyberpunk-esque game out there had Japan as a huge power... usually with people in America using "Nu-Yen" or something as currency.
Having Japan simply no longer be a viable power in the world was a refreshing choice. Realistic too, considering how badly the island would have been hit in the apocalypse.

"But that's boring!" you might say....
So?
Not every corner of the planet has to be teeming with excitement.
A good chunk of the fun of the original game was that you could boldly go places where no human had set foot in hundreds of years... you could explore, colonize, whatever...

So I have only really used the Japan book to update The Foot Clan to fit the Rifts setting, and had The Foot located primarily in North America. I used them in my campaign quite a bit, and to good effect.

Other than that, I'd say that Rifts Japan would make for a pretty good Dimension Book. Instead of a high-tech city getting rifted from Rifts Earth to the future of Rifts Earth, why not just have it land in another dimension and start colonizing that world?
That would have been one heck of a lot more interesting, and it would have fit with the original intention of Japan being destroyed.
And it would even be easier to get to for characters in North America... it's easier to wander through a random rift and end up in another dimension than it is to travel to the other side of the planet.

Making it another dimension would be the way to go.





I do get tired of the continuity being sacrificed.

Sure... yeah it's part of the originally planned Chaos Earth that was supposed to be an alternate Earth rather than Rifts' History.

[Zer0 Kay]

Six demon seas.

I see pictures of two of them on RMB p.158/159 (color plates), but I can't find a map of the other four. Are they mentioned in the text?

Forgot about the one off South Africa. Just remembered the 4 plus the one in the Med.
It wasn't the main book either (thought it was one of the color pics) but it certainly wasn't new in Japan.
Even if it was I surprised KS didn't know about them they weren't in it and forgotten. They are in the GMG after all.

All six triangles were in BTS, so I'm pretty sure that KS always knew they were there. IIRC they were first mentioned in WB2 Atlantis in regards to Rifts.

:ok: Damn beat me to it but YUP.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

my god, this shouldn't even be a debate, I think alot of the people seeking these arguments are insane and should stay on their medications

You've noticed I quietly pulled out of this debate...

I said my piece and washed my hands of it as well.

yup same here

You just like commenting for absolutely NO reason don't you

as do you huh?

Yup

well then its settled

what is? Oh wait I'm supposed to disagree. Nuh uh

i would like to hear your thoughts on this topic

Uh... Which topic these nests or the actual thread?

does it matter

[Mech-Viper Prime]

You don't seem to understand the point of this thread.

no i was addressing a question about erin tarn i saw, not your "there nothing to see hear, move along japan"

Perhaps you should have quoted whatever you were responding to in order to avoid confusion.
Generally, when a person posts to a thread without indicating what they are talking about, it is assumed that they are addressing the topic at hand.

you mean like this

KC, you have created this thread as a debate. Therefore, it is encumbent upon YOU to prove that Erin Tarn HAS been to Japan, not upon us to prove that she has not. That's how debate works. You made the claim, you back it up.

this was the statement i was proving the comments on

[Zer0 Kay]

my god, this shouldn't even be a debate, I think alot of the people seeking these arguments are insane and should stay on their medications

You've noticed I quietly pulled out of this debate...

I said my piece and washed my hands of it as well.

yup same here

You just like commenting for absolutely NO reason don't you

as do you huh?

Yup

well then its settled

what is? Oh wait I'm supposed to disagree. Nuh uh

i would like to hear your thoughts on this topic

Uh... Which topic these nests or the actual thread?

does it matter

Guess not... here's another nest

[Mech-Viper Prime]

my god, this shouldn't even be a debate, I think alot of the people seeking these arguments are insane and should stay on their medications

You've noticed I quietly pulled out of this debate...

I said my piece and washed my hands of it as well.

yup same here

You just like commenting for absolutely NO reason don't you

as do you huh?

Yup

well then its settled

what is? Oh wait I'm supposed to disagree. Nuh uh

i would like to hear your thoughts on this topic

Uh... Which topic these nests or the actual thread?

does it matter

Guess not... here's another nest

I think you get some joy out of nesting

[Zer0 Kay]

my god, this shouldn't even be a debate, I think alot of the people seeking these arguments are insane and should stay on their medications

You've noticed I quietly pulled out of this debate...

I said my piece and washed my hands of it as well.

yup same here

You just like commenting for absolutely NO reason don't you

as do you huh?

Yup

well then its settled

what is? Oh wait I'm supposed to disagree. Nuh uh

i would like to hear your thoughts on this topic

Uh... Which topic these nests or the actual thread?

does it matter

Guess not... here's another nest

I think you get some joy out of nesting

Well got to be able to nest somewhere since I'm in the military I won't have a real home until I get out.

[Zer0 Kay]

[MODERATED - NO NAME CALLING PLEASE]. ... No amount of nukes would wipe out tech civilization. .... [MODERATED] Burn your rifts books, go pickup Corps Apocalypse.

Not sure who this was directed at, but it is pretty mean.

Mean? I thought it facetious.

[Kalinda]

[MODERATED - NO NAME CALLING PLEASE]. ... No amount of nukes would wipe out tech civilization. .... [MODERATED] Burn your rifts books, go pickup Corps Apocalypse.

Not sure who this was directed at, but it is pretty mean.

After awhile you learn to skim past his posts without reading them.

[Zer0 Kay]

[MODERATED - NO NAME CALLING PLEASE]. ... No amount of nukes would wipe out tech civilization. .... [MODERATED] Burn your rifts books, go pickup Corps Apocalypse.

Not sure who this was directed at, but it is pretty mean.

After awhile you learn to skim past his posts without reading them.

Ignore who? Don't say me because you don't ignore me... you bite me.

[Killer Cyborg]

I want realism, and 300 years is not a long time when after getting knocked back to the stone age (Iron age at best).

300 years is a huge amount of time when you have access to a 'lot' of the old information and don't have to rediscover it all from scratch again.

Daniel Stoker

Depends on how much time you have to mull things over compared to how much time you spend fighting for survival.
And one heck of a lot of information would have been lost anyway. More and more libraries are keeping more and more of their books in digital format and scrapping the book versions... and digital information does no good without the electricty and knowledge needed to use it.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

my god, this shouldn't even be a debate, I think alot of the people seeking these arguments are insane and should stay on their medications

You've noticed I quietly pulled out of this debate...

I said my piece and washed my hands of it as well.

yup same here

You just like commenting for absolutely NO reason don't you

as do you huh?

Yup

well then its settled

what is? Oh wait I'm supposed to disagree. Nuh uh

i would like to hear your thoughts on this topic

Uh... Which topic these nests or the actual thread?

does it matter

Guess not... here's another nest

I think you get some joy out of nesting

Well got to be able to nest somewhere since I'm in the military I won't have a real home until I get out.

that is just to funny

[Killer Cyborg]

In my game world, Japan on Rifts Earth is a pretty quiet place that's almost entirely devoid of MDC capabilities and MDC threats.
Other than a few fishing villages, it's wilderness.

Frankly, that's how I think most of Rifts Earth should be... low (or zero) population, low-tech, low-powered.
What's the point of having an apocalypse if every nation on the planet rebuilds itself, and there are cities everywhere?

It's been 300 years.
You want stagnation instead of rebuilding?

I want realism, and 300 years is not a long time when after getting knocked back to the stone age (Iron age at best).

Where did you get that idea? Germany was largely untouched. Even North America had many pre rifts factories and military installations remain mostly intact. More like a technological dark age (meaning severe impairment but not total loss) than a new iron age.

I was still talking primarily about Japan, although the conversation had actually broadened a bit.

Germany has been too busy fighting for survival to make a whole lot of progress. Ditto with the CS and many other high-tech nations.

[Killer Cyborg]

In my game world, Japan on Rifts Earth is a pretty quiet place that's almost entirely devoid of MDC capabilities and MDC threats.
Other than a few fishing villages, it's wilderness.

Frankly, that's how I think most of Rifts Earth should be... low (or zero) population, low-tech, low-powered.
What's the point of having an apocalypse if every nation on the planet rebuilds itself, and there are cities everywhere?

It's been 300 years.
You want stagnation instead of rebuilding?

I want realism, and 300 years is not a long time when after getting knocked back to the stone age (Iron age at best).

So what's stopping you? Honestly?

If you want your campaign to be based in an empty world full of maybe a few thousand humans and a few million monsters, well go for it.

Just don't expect PB to do it. But there is nothing stopping you.

No freakin' duh.
I DO run things that way, and I seriously wonder where on earth you got the notion that I don't...


As for Palladium, the world of Rifts was originally supposed to be mostly wilderness. It's still supposed to be that way, it's just that the writers seem to forget that or ignore it in favor of their really kewl ideas.

They have the right to do what they want, and I have the right to complain about it.
Which should go without saying.

[Killer Cyborg]

I really don't see the point in complaining about Japan, IMO the South America books are much worse. There's just far too much going on down there, too many empires and aliens not enough wilderness.

Don't get me started on South America....

[The Beast]

Why is everyone debating Erin Tarn's accuracy? It's quite clear she is fallible.
RMB, page 146:

The lower portion of Maryland, south of Washington DC, is submerged, as is everything east of the Chesapeake Bay, including all of Delaware and 40% of New Jersey....

Now turn to page 159, and look in that area. Or every map of the eastern U.S. that has come out since. Looks to me like all of Delaware and a good portion of Maryland in that area are still above water.

This simply means she was incorrect when she wrote about Japan, and everything else she wrote about that was changed later.

[Killer Cyborg]

What about the giant major magic triangle that is just southeast of Japan?

Are there no demon and d-bee threats pouring out of it?

Or is that triangle just quieter than the others?

I haven't heard of it, so it must be in the Japan book.
Which means that it doesn't exist in my version of Rifts Earth.

That's one way of covering it (I've done the same myself to a few bits and pieces of canon).

So, are only the two triangles in the RMB book on your Rifts Earth? The other four just aren't there?

(The GMG has maps of them, p.332 col.1.)

Never put much though into it.
The party hasn't really left North America, except for stints in other dimensions. If they ever get to sailing around the globe then I suppose I'll have to address it...

[Killer Cyborg]

I want realism, and 300 years is not a long time when after getting knocked back to the stone age (Iron age at best).

It was enough time after the fall of Rome.

What year did Rome fall?

And you seem to think they were knocked back a lot further that any Rifts book would have you believe.

I was only referring to certain places. The high-tech places were, of course, not knocked back so badly. But places like Japan that were destroyed and reduced to "quiet wilderness"... yeah, I think that stone or iron age would be a good description of things.
The books do say that a lot of places have that sort of general tech level (although there might be a few exceptions from trade with high-tech places).

[Killer Cyborg]

You don't seem to understand the point of this thread.

no i was addressing a question about erin tarn i saw, not your "there nothing to see hear, move along japan"

Perhaps you should have quoted whatever you were responding to in order to avoid confusion.
Generally, when a person posts to a thread without indicating what they are talking about, it is assumed that they are addressing the topic at hand.

you mean like this

KC, you have created this thread as a debate. Therefore, it is encumbent upon YOU to prove that Erin Tarn HAS been to Japan, not upon us to prove that she has not. That's how debate works. You made the claim, you back it up.

this was the statement i was proving the comments on

Yup, that's the way to do it.

So, you were responding to an on-topic question directed at me, but got offended when I pointed out that your post was not relevent to the topic at hand...?

The fact remains that there is nothing in the main book to indicate that she never travelled to Japan. The fact that her description of Japan makes no mention of being second-hand information (which she usually does note) indicates that she may well have been there.
Or, at worst, obtained her reports through a number of sources that she trusted implicitely.

[Zer0 Kay]

[MODERATED - NO NAME CALLING PLEASE]. ... No amount of nukes would wipe out tech civilization. .... [MODERATED] Burn your rifts books, go pickup Corps Apocalypse.

Not sure who this was directed at, but it is pretty mean.

After awhile you learn to skim past his posts without reading them.

Ignore who? Don't say me because you don't ignore me... you bite me.

Follow the quotes my friend. Not you. Although, I am certain that I have never once bitten you.

OK now I was trying to be facetious (sarcastic humor) you know like:
Officer 1: Wow what is that, she's sweat.
Officer 2: This aircraft is top secret forget you ever saw it.
Officer 1: Saw what sir?
Officer 2: The aircraft your looking at.
Officer 1:

[Zer0 Kay]

my god, this shouldn't even be a debate, I think alot of the people seeking these arguments are insane and should stay on their medications

You've noticed I quietly pulled out of this debate...

I said my piece and washed my hands of it as well.

yup same here

You just like commenting for absolutely NO reason don't you

as do you huh?

Yup

well then its settled

what is? Oh wait I'm supposed to disagree. Nuh uh

i would like to hear your thoughts on this topic

Uh... Which topic these nests or the actual thread?

does it matter

Guess not... here's another nest

I think you get some joy out of nesting

Well got to be able to nest somewhere since I'm in the military I won't have a real home until I get out.

that is just to funny

WOW I thought you were doing--YODA

[Killer Cyborg]

Why is everyone debating Erin Tarn's accuracy? It's quite clear she is fallible.
RMB, page 146:

The lower portion of Maryland, south of Washington DC, is submerged, as is everything east of the Chesapeake Bay, including all of Delaware and 40% of New Jersey....

Now turn to page 159, and look in that area. Or every map of the eastern U.S. that has come out since. Looks to me like all of Delaware and a good portion of Maryland in that area are still above water.

Good catch.

This simply means she was incorrect when she wrote about Japan, and everything else she wrote about that was changed later.

Only in-game. All signs point to KS having meant for her description of Japan to be accurate when he wrote it.

[The Beast]

[MODERATED - NO NAME CALLING PLEASE]. ... No amount of nukes would wipe out tech civilization. .... [MODERATED] Burn your rifts books, go pickup Corps Apocalypse.

It is far easier to wipe out a technologiclly advanced civilization than it is to wipe out a stone age one.

[Kalinda]

[MODERATED - NO NAME CALLING PLEASE]. ... No amount of nukes would wipe out tech civilization. .... [MODERATED] Burn your rifts books, go pickup Corps Apocalypse.

Not sure who this was directed at, but it is pretty mean.

After awhile you learn to skim past his posts without reading them.

Ignore who? Don't say me because you don't ignore me... you bite me.

You actually contribute interesting comments to threads, I'd never ignore you. I might miss a chance to bite...

[The Beast]

What about the giant major magic triangle that is just southeast of Japan?

Are there no demon and d-bee threats pouring out of it?

Or is that triangle just quieter than the others?

I haven't heard of it, so it must be in the Japan book.
Which means that it doesn't exist in my version of Rifts Earth.

The 6 triangle anolomies are printed in many books including Underseas, Australia and BtS.
I thought that they were first mentioned in WB2 Atlantis, but I don't have my books here to back me up.

I really don't see the point in complaining about Japan, IMO the South America books are much worse. There's just far too much going on down there, too many empires and aliens not enough wilderness.

Also mentioned in BTS, which is Rifts Earth's past.

[The Beast]

Only in-game. All signs point to KS having meant for her description of Japan to be accurate when he wrote it.

True, but how much fun would it be for your tech characters to be exploring the wilderness with no way of repairing, rearming, resupplying, ect? I agree they need to lower the amount of high tech places, but to not have any isn't playable.

[Killer Cyborg]

Only in-game. All signs point to KS having meant for her description of Japan to be accurate when he wrote it.

True, but how much fun would it be for your tech characters to be exploring the wilderness with no way of repairing, rearming, resupplying, ect?

Personally, I like a challenge.

And it's things like this that originally gave mages, psychics, cyberknights, and techno-wizards their edge... they didn't have to worry about ammo supplies as much.

I agree they need to lower the amount of high tech places, but to not have any isn't playable.

I'm not advocating a complete lack of high-tech places... just that they be few and far between.

[Kalinda]

Only in-game. All signs point to KS having meant for her description of Japan to be accurate when he wrote it.

True, but how much fun would it be for your tech characters to be exploring the wilderness with no way of repairing, rearming, resupplying, ect?

Personally, I like a challenge.

And it's things like this that originally gave mages, psychics, cyberknights, and techno-wizards their edge... they didn't have to worry about ammo supplies as much.

I agree they need to lower the amount of high tech places, but to not have any isn't playable.

I'm not advocating a complete lack of high-tech places... just that they be few and far between.

Gotta have something for the PCs to do besides kill things and take their stuff, and exploring/rebuilding can be very interesting games if done right.

When I was gaming in college we played Morrow Project quite a bit, it's a post nuclear war game in which the PCs are trying to rebuild somehow. We played for over a year and made great progress.

[Dr. Doom III]

I was only referring to certain places. The high-tech places were, of course, not knocked back so badly. But places like Japan that were destroyed and reduced to "quiet wilderness"... yeah, I think that stone or iron age would be a good description of things.
The books do say that a lot of places have that sort of general tech level (although there might be a few exceptions from trade with high-tech places).

And the places that are not Rifted Pre-rifts cities are back at the medieval level of technology except for one place in Japan.

And by the way if you had read the book you would know Japan was destroyed. The new republic was created by refugees after a mass migration.

[Dr. Doom III]

[MODERATED - NO NAME CALLING PLEASE]. ... No amount of nukes would wipe out tech civilization. .... [MODERATED] Burn your rifts books, go pickup Corps Apocalypse.

It is far easier to wipe out a technologically advanced civilization than it is to wipe out a stone age one.

Tell that to the Neanderthals.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

[MODERATED - NO NAME CALLING PLEASE]. ... No amount of nukes would wipe out tech civilization. .... [MODERATED] Burn your rifts books, go pickup Corps Apocalypse.

It is far easier to wipe out a technologically advanced civilization than it is to wipe out a stone age one.

Tell that to the Neanderthals.

Ah, at the risk of opening a whole other can of worms, the Neanderthals were pre-civilization. Really they were too animilistic t have a civilization of any sort, furthermore, nomads don't have a whole lot to wipe out.

i find that very odd, most i have read or have seen shows a civilization in the early stages

[The Beast]

Only in-game. All signs point to KS having meant for her description of Japan to be accurate when he wrote it.

True, but how much fun would it be for your tech characters to be exploring the wilderness with no way of repairing, rearming, resupplying, ect?

Personally, I like a challenge.

And it's things like this that originally gave mages, psychics, cyberknights, and techno-wizards their edge... they didn't have to worry about ammo supplies as much.

I agree they need to lower the amount of high tech places, but to not have any isn't playable.

I'm not advocating a complete lack of high-tech places... just that they be few and far between.

I agree with you on this.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

[MODERATED - NO NAME CALLING PLEASE]. ... No amount of nukes would wipe out tech civilization. .... [MODERATED] Burn your rifts books, go pickup Corps Apocalypse.

It is far easier to wipe out a technologically advanced civilization than it is to wipe out a stone age one.

Tell that to the Neanderthals.

Ah, at the risk of opening a whole other can of worms, the Neanderthals were pre-civilization. Really they were too animilistic t have a civilization of any sort, furthermore, nomads don't have a whole lot to wipe out.

i find that very odd, most i have read or have seen shows a civilization in the early stages

We shall agree to disagree, because everything I have seen or read says differently. Maybe we are in some weird parallel universe from each other, because I am finding your comments about them being civilized as strange as you are finding my assertions. Weird.

as i said in the early stages

[The Beast]

[MODERATED - NO NAME CALLING PLEASE]. ... No amount of nukes would wipe out tech civilization. .... [MODERATED] Burn your rifts books, go pickup Corps Apocalypse.

It is far easier to wipe out a technologically advanced civilization than it is to wipe out a stone age one.

Tell that to the Neanderthals.

How many of us would be able to survive and rebuild our society if it fell? The Romans didn't have to worry about gas, electricity, and other things we take for granted today. The majority of people then knew how to hunt, fish, and farm. How many of us could do the same? How many of us know how to build a car, or a power station? Does anyone here know how to drill for oil? Or mine metal out of the ground? Or prevent a nuclear plant from melting down?

[Mech-Viper Prime]

[MODERATED - NO NAME CALLING PLEASE]. ... No amount of nukes would wipe out tech civilization. .... [MODERATED] Burn your rifts books, go pickup Corps Apocalypse.

It is far easier to wipe out a technologically advanced civilization than it is to wipe out a stone age one.

Tell that to the Neanderthals.

How many of us would be able to survive and rebuild our society if it fell? The Romans didn't have to worry about gas, electricity, and other things we take for granted today. The majority of people then knew how to hunt, fish, and farm. How many of us could do the same? How many of us know how to build a car, or a power station? Does anyone here know how to drill for oil? Or mine metal out of the ground? Or prevent a nuclear plant from melting down?

when modern civilization falls its going to be hard, meanwhile in other parts of the world will be just like the day before

[Killer Cyborg]

I was only referring to certain places. The high-tech places were, of course, not knocked back so badly. But places like Japan that were destroyed and reduced to "quiet wilderness"... yeah, I think that stone or iron age would be a good description of things.
The books do say that a lot of places have that sort of general tech level (although there might be a few exceptions from trade with high-tech places).

And the places that are not Rifted Pre-rifts cities are back at the medieval level of technology except for one place in Japan.

Yes.
Meaning that the writers of Rifts Japan couldn't stand the thought of a world without cyber-ninjas, so they came up with a cheesey explanation that would allow them to change things from the original book.

And by the way if you had read the book you would know Japan was destroyed. The new republic was created by refugees after a mass migration.

See above answer.

[Killer Cyborg]

How many of us would be able to survive and rebuild our society if it fell? The Romans didn't have to worry about gas, electricity, and other things we take for granted today. The majority of people then knew how to hunt, fish, and farm. How many of us could do the same? How many of us know how to build a car, or a power station? Does anyone here know how to drill for oil? Or mine metal out of the ground? Or prevent a nuclear plant from melting down?

Exactly.
It's like when Arthur Dent found himself stranded on a planet with a stone-age tribe. He figured that he could use his 20th century knowledge to help improve things and become their ruler... but then he realized that most of his knowledge was useless without modern tools.
All he could do with his modern knowledge is to become the tribe Sandwich Maker (which, since the tribe didn't previously know about sandwiches, DID gain him a lot of prestige and did make things better for the people... but it's a far cry from mega-damage weaponry..)

[Mech-Viper Prime]

personally i always wonder why the power armor and robot vechile were not more anime vs what was in rifts japan

[Mech-Viper Prime]

How many of us would be able to survive and rebuild our society if it fell? The Romans didn't have to worry about gas, electricity, and other things we take for granted today. The majority of people then knew how to hunt, fish, and farm. How many of us could do the same? How many of us know how to build a car, or a power station? Does anyone here know how to drill for oil? Or mine metal out of the ground? Or prevent a nuclear plant from melting down?

I know how to hunt, fish, and farm. Does that count for anything?

hmm yup, you will be more useful then most of the guys on the boards here

[vitae_drinker]

In my game world, Japan on Rifts Earth is a pretty quiet place that's almost entirely devoid of MDC capabilities and MDC threats.
Other than a few fishing villages, it's wilderness.

Frankly, that's how I think most of Rifts Earth should be... low (or zero) population, low-tech, low-powered.
What's the point of having an apocalypse if every nation on the planet rebuilds itself, and there are cities everywhere?

It's been 300 years.
You want stagnation instead of rebuilding?

I want realism, and 300 years is not a long time when after getting knocked back to the stone age (Iron age at best).

So what's stopping you? Honestly?

If you want your campaign to be based in an empty world full of maybe a few thousand humans and a few million monsters, well go for it.

Just don't expect PB to do it. But there is nothing stopping you.

No freakin' duh.
I DO run things that way, and I seriously wonder where on earth you got the notion that I don't...


As for Palladium, the world of Rifts was originally supposed to be mostly wilderness. It's still supposed to be that way, it's just that the writers seem to forget that or ignore it in favor of their really kewl ideas.

They have the right to do what they want, and I have the right to complain about it.
Which should go without saying.

So what are you !&@#*@#$& about?

Your entire post should have been:

"I disagree with the way that Palladium has done Rifts, but I still play it and still buy their books. Thank you."

LOL

[Killer Cyborg]

In my game world, Japan on Rifts Earth is a pretty quiet place that's almost entirely devoid of MDC capabilities and MDC threats.
Other than a few fishing villages, it's wilderness.

Frankly, that's how I think most of Rifts Earth should be... low (or zero) population, low-tech, low-powered.
What's the point of having an apocalypse if every nation on the planet rebuilds itself, and there are cities everywhere?

It's been 300 years.
You want stagnation instead of rebuilding?

I want realism, and 300 years is not a long time when after getting knocked back to the stone age (Iron age at best).

So what's stopping you? Honestly?

If you want your campaign to be based in an empty world full of maybe a few thousand humans and a few million monsters, well go for it.

Just don't expect PB to do it. But there is nothing stopping you.

No freakin' duh.
I DO run things that way, and I seriously wonder where on earth you got the notion that I don't...


As for Palladium, the world of Rifts was originally supposed to be mostly wilderness. It's still supposed to be that way, it's just that the writers seem to forget that or ignore it in favor of their really kewl ideas.

They have the right to do what they want, and I have the right to complain about it.
Which should go without saying.

So what are you !&@#*@#$& about?

Your entire post should have been:

"I disagree with the way that Palladium has done Rifts, but I still play it and still buy their books. Thank you."

LOL

I wouldn't have commented on it at all, only I was asked how I ran Japan in my game.
Then Doom asked me how I would rather things be.
I don't think that your suggested responce would really have answered either question.

[vitae_drinker]

I wouldn't have commented on it at all, only I was asked how I ran Japan in my game.
Then Doom asked me how I would rather things be.
I don't think that your suggested responce would really have answered either question.

Actually...

"I disagree with the way that Palladium has done Rifts, but I still play it and still buy their books. Thank you."

I think it does.

Much more succinct, but I do believe it answers both questions, although without a great deal of detail. Maybe with the addition of "I believe that Rifts should be more like Mad Max, which is the way I run it."

And then the "Thank you".

[Killer Cyborg]

I wouldn't have commented on it at all, only I was asked how I ran Japan in my game.
Then Doom asked me how I would rather things be.
I don't think that your suggested responce would really have answered either question.

Actually...

"I disagree with the way that Palladium has done Rifts, but I still play it and still buy their books. Thank you."

I think it does.

Much more succinct, but I do believe it answers both questions, although without a great deal of detail. Maybe with the addition of "I believe that Rifts should be more like Mad Max, which is the way I run it."

And then the "Thank you".

Let's try that and see how it works:

KC, I eagerly await the product of your imagination describing your set up in Japan.

"I disagree with the way that Palladium has done Rifts, but I still play it and still buy their books. Thank you."

No... that really does absolutely nothing to address the issue at hand.
See, he was asking for a description of how I imagine Japan would be... and your "answer" doesn't answer that.
It's more of a politically correct evasion than an answer... like when a politician is asked about taxes and responds with "I'm a patriot and I love this country."
It's all very nice and everything, just irrelevent to the question.

Since I like and respect RainOfSteel, I'd much rather just answer his question than evade it with irrelevent political correctness.

But maybe you were talking about Doom's question,

It's been 300 years.
You want stagnation instead of rebuilding?

"I disagree with the way that Palladium has done Rifts, but I still play it and still buy their books. Thank you."

No... that still doesn't work.
See, Doom is asking my preference of gameworld and implying that he finds "stagnation" boring.
So I addressed his question and explained that my preference is for realism.

Since he was not asking:
a) Whether or not I agree with everthing that Palladium has done with Rifts (and he knows that I do not... neither does he, for that matter)
b) Whether I still play Rifts
or
c) Whether or not I still buy Palladium products

Your proposed answer really does nothing to answer the questions that were actually asked.

In any case, the point of this thread is NOT about how well I respond to people's questions, and it's NOT about whether or not I buy Palladium products, let's get things back on track.

The topic is this:
Kevin Siembieda originally envisioned Japan has having been destroyed and turned into a quiet chain of wilderness islands.
The Rifts Japan book is a definite change from that original version of things.
That's all.

And it's rather puzzling to me why anybody would claim otherwise. Whether or not you like Rifts Japan, it's obviously not what KS originally had in mind. If you like it, then it's a good change. If you don't like it, then it's a bad change.
But it's still a change.

[vitae_drinker]

And it's rather puzzling to me why anybody would claim otherwise.

Actually, I don't really see why people couldn't think otherwise. The entire argument for this point of view is that IN GAME FLUFF (ie: story), which may or may not be accurate, a FICTIONAL CHARACTER gave, what, a paragraph on it? Honestly, if you expected everything to not be changed from the main book to all the follow on books, why even bother releasing extra books? Or buy them? Obviously, if nothing changes, then you don't need them.

Whether or not you like Rifts Japan, it's obviously not what KS originally had in mind.

So Kevin told you this personally? Very cool. Got the e-mail or telephone call saved so we can all share in it? Or was it over a personal dinner type thing?

[Jesterzzn]

I want realism, and 300 years is not a long time when after getting knocked back to the stone age (Iron age at best).

It was enough time after the fall of Rome.

What year did Rome fall?

410 is when social and technological order began to swiftly decay in Rome. Most however consider 476 (The year Rome no longer had an emperor) to be the official beginning of the dark ages. Most say they lasted until 1000, which is when the Holy Roman Empire began to form out of Charlemanes empire. That would be about 500-600 years, or roughly twice what Doom asserted. I however do not consider the Dark Ages to have ended until the 1300's which saw the formations and entrenching of most major European nations, and stabilized the region in preparation for the Renaissance. 800-1300, while not as bad as 400-800, did not see any major technological achievement (although some great thinkers did live in this period).

[Killer Cyborg]

And it's rather puzzling to me why anybody would claim otherwise.

Actually, I don't really see why people couldn't think otherwise. The entire argument for this point of view is that IN GAME FLUFF (ie: story), which may or may not be accurate, a FICTIONAL CHARACTER gave, what, a paragraph on it? Honestly, if you expected everything to not be changed from the main book to all the follow on books, why even bother releasing extra books? Or buy them? Obviously, if nothing changes, then you don't need them.

"Fluff"...?
It's in the same parts of the book that give the only real description of the world of Rifts. It's the parts that describe Chi-Town and all the other cities.
Erin Tarn is a device used by KS to show us the world of Rifts through the eyes of one of the inhabitants, but that doesn't mean that it was deliberately inaccurate and misleading. Especially not in the areas where it stated things as plain fact (as opposed to speculation or rumors).

And that's not even the entire argument.
If you'll read the thread, you'll notice that I point out that there was originally only going to be one Worldbook for Rifts. That worldbook was going to cover the Vampire Kingdoms, of course, and would likely have covered the NGR, Atlantis, England, and all the other places that were actually described in the main book as being of interest.
Japan is not one of those places.
KS didn't write Japan. That indicates that he didn't have secret plans for it that he was hiding.
The most obvious answer is that, since he had no reason to lie to us through Tarn, that he wasn't lying. That her description was accurate.

Seriously, if Rifts Japan had never come out, how many people would be here arguing that it was obvious that KS intended for Japan to have lots of stuff going on there...?

Whether or not you like Rifts Japan, it's obviously not what KS originally had in mind.

So Kevin told you this personally? Very cool. Got the e-mail or telephone call saved so we can all share in it? Or was it over a personal dinner type thing?

Well, I spoke to him at great length at GenCon (although I neglected to record this for posterity). I don't remember for sure if we got around to discussing Japan specifically, but I did mention my gripes about the changes in the New West from the original versions (I may or may not have mentioned Japan as well... I can't remember for sure).
He openly acknowledged that the New West was changed from the original. I think that he expressed an opinion similar to Doom's, that it's boring for there to be places where nothing's happening... we got into a discussion about that and I explained my view that frontiers are more exciting when there aren't many people there... that's what makes them frontiers.

He's a great guy, judging from our talks, and he has NO problems openly admitting that there have been a great many changes to Rifts over the 15 years that it has existed.
I have no idea why other people seem to want to believe that there haven't.