This is the thread that never ends, it goes on and on...

[Killer Cyborg]

You can always tell when TemporalMage is backed into a corner.
He changes the topic and quits posting for a while, hoping that we've forgotten that he lost.
I've seen Doom admit more readily to being wrong than TM.

Excuse me?? I've never seen Doom admit when he was wrong. Even when faced with an unbeleivable avalanche of facts, he has often stated "I don't like that rule, so I don't use it." Or somthing like that, rather than admit he is wrong!!

Yup. He's really, really bad about admitting when he is wrong.
But I have seen him do it a few times.

[Temporalmage]

Hey, I'm still waiting for you to respond to me....

What exactly do you want?

How's this.

Page 10, Sourcebook 1: "the psionic or mage inside the robot or power armor can not use his paranormal powers to affect anybody outside the armor or bot."

Note it say's paranormal powers, which would include psionics, magic, mutant ability, or ability of any magic or supernatual creature.

Page 21 of the Book of Magic: "Magic can not penetrate the skin of giant robots, or vehices. Any spell cast inside will only affect the occupants and the internal systems of the vehicle/robot. Likewise, any spell directed at vehicles/robots outside, only affect the robot itself and can not affect the occupants inside."

When teleporting, you target the spot you wish to get too, which would be inside the robot/vehicle. Thus according to this passage you could teleport on top of a robot/vehicle, or near it. But not inside it.

Page 19 of the Book of Magic: "Trying to cast magic from inside a vehicle or giant robot is impossible, causing the magical effects/damage to strike those inside the vehilce (can not penetrate the walls of the vehicle; even novice students of magic are taught this). As a result, the spell caster must at least open a window or hatch, and stick his head and upper body out (a nice target for snipers) to weave his magic. Many spells also require line of sight to strike a specific target; the spell caster must be able to see his quarry."

Note that Doom has constantly stated that this rule is there because of Line of Sight issues. Yet the book clearly uses the word "Also" when discussing line of sight. "Also" meaning: "In addition; besides."
There is indeed a line of sight issue with some spells, such as fireball, lightning bolt, etc. But other spells such as teleport wouldn't have that issue. After all you can't see a couple, let alone hundreds of miles away. Yet that passage clearly states that NO magic can pass from inside to outside. Thus the inverse would also be true, that no magic can pass from outside to inside. As clearly stated on page 21 of the BoM.

So how's this for answering any of your questions?

Also Doom, it's pretty clear that your the one that doesn't understand the rules! How could you possibly state that you understand the rules, then argue that magic can pass through a robot/vehicle, especially when the spell being discussed doesn't state that it can!!

Once again the only way to magically get into a robot or vehicle would be to cast Escape on the hatch, or Mystic Portal on the side of it. Both would effect the robot only and thus preserve the sanctity of the rules.

[Temporalmage]

You can always tell when TemporalMage is backed into a corner.
He changes the topic and quits posting for a while, hoping that we've forgotten that he lost.
I've seen Doom admit more readily to being wrong than TM.

Excuse me?? I've never seen Doom admit when he was wrong. Even when faced with an unbeleivable avalanche of facts, he has often stated "I don't like that rule, so I don't use it." Or somthing like that, rather than admit he is wrong!!

Yup. He's really, really bad about admitting when he is wrong.
But I have seen him do it a few times.

Well I guess I can't say he never has...only that I've never seen it!

[Killer Cyborg]

Hey, I'm still waiting for you to respond to me....

What exactly do you want?

How's this.

Page 10, Sourcebook 1: "the psionic or mage inside the robot or power armor can not use his paranormal powers to affect anybody outside the armor or bot."

Note it say's paranormal powers, which would include psionics, magic, mutant ability, or ability of any magic or supernatual creature.

Page 21 of the Book of Magic: "Magic can not penetrate the skin of giant robots, or vehices. Any spell cast inside will only affect the occupants and the internal systems of the vehicle/robot. Likewise, any spell directed at vehicles/robots outside, only affect the robot itself and can not affect the occupants inside."

When teleporting, you target the spot you wish to get too, which would be inside the robot/vehicle. Thus according to this passage you could teleport on top of a robot/vehicle, or near it. But not inside it.

Page 19 of the Book of Magic: "Trying to cast magic from inside a vehicle or giant robot is impossible, causing the magical effects/damage to strike those inside the vehilce (can not penetrate the walls of the vehicle; even novice students of magic are taught this). As a result, the spell caster must at least open a window or hatch, and stick his head and upper body out (a nice target for snipers) to weave his magic. Many spells also require line of sight to strike a specific target; the spell caster must be able to see his quarry."

Note that Doom has constantly stated that this rule is there because of Line of Sight issues. Yet the book clearly uses the word "Also" when discussing line of sight. "Also" meaning: "In addition; besides."
There is indeed a line of sight issue with some spells, such as fireball, lightning bolt, etc. But other spells such as teleport wouldn't have that issue. After all you can't see a couple, let alone hundreds of miles away. Yet that passage clearly states that NO magic can pass from inside to outside. Thus the inverse would also be true, that no magic can pass from outside to inside. As clearly stated on page 21 of the BoM.

So how's this for answering any of your questions?

Lousy.
Let's pick up where we left off instead of resetting back to the beginning.
We were here:

"Attacking an enemy" and "Always" are not the same thing in my world.
Must be a violent place where you come from.

What I said was that there are plenty of times when it is better to fight from inside a robot vehicle than from outside one. This is not the same as "it is always better to stay inside a robot vehicle".

Now here's where you counter your own argument!

"And against a dragon (as with many other foes), he SHOULD have his head examined for wanting to leave his relatively safe vehicle.
Against weak foes, especially ones he wants taken alive, he's better off casting spells.
Of course, even then he's better off spending a round or two inside a safe place while he gets his Armor of Ithan up (or defensive spells of choice) before he sticks his head out.

So in your own words there wouldn't BE a good time to step out of a robot. Even if faced with a "weak foe".

Uh, that's not a counter to my argument.
"During Combat" and "Always" are not the same thing in my world.

In combat it is almost always better to be inside a robot/vehicle than not, whether or not you're a mage.
It's just too easy to die otherwise, especially for a mage since they're a high priority target.

You're cramming OCCs into narrow stereotypes.
Being a mage doesn't restrict what vehicles you can drive, at least not beyond restricting what Pilot skills you can take.

I didn't say it restricted what they CAN drive, just what they would choose too. You yourself admited that mage OCC's have vehicles that they prefer. States what those vehicles are under each individual magic OCC.

Yes, but your argument hasn't been "the majority of mages prefer ______", your argument has been "No mage would want to drive any vehicle that would keep their magic contained."
The books don't back you up at all on this.
1. The only listed restrictions on pilot skills is that some mage OCCs can't pilot jets, tanks, or robots. You seem to be saying "Sure, they can know HOW to drive enclosed vehicles, but they never would."
But that makes no sense. Why would a mage learn a skill that he didn't intend on using?
2. As I pointed out, many mages prefer hover vehicles, which includes hover cars (which are enclosed).
3. Mages can choose any vehicle as part of their starting equipment. There is a preference mentioned, but that's all.
Now check out some other classes vehicle options:
-Bursters are limited to non-military vehicles of choice
-Borgs (Slave) are limited to non-military vehicles
-Crazies can choose anything, but "rarely use power armor or robots"
-Cyberknights can choose anything, but they have preferences listed (just like mages do). Unlike mages, they also have a bit stating that they "Rarely use power armor or robot vehicles."
-Juicers can choose anything, but "seldom want slow moving tanks/APCs or lumbering robots."
-Body Fixers get non-military vehicles
-City Rats get a motorcycle. Not "prefer a motorcycle", just "His vehicle will be a motorcycle."
-Cyber Docs get a non-military vehicle
-Rogue Scientists get a non-military ground vehicle
-Rogue Scholars get a non-military ground vehicle
-Wilderness Scouts get a non-military vehicle (What!? Even though they can't use their OCC abilities like cooking, climbing, athletics, Hunting, fishing, prowl, track animals, WP Knife, and Wilderness Survival while they're driving!? Gee, how odd... I mean, they've spent their lives learning how to run around in the wilderness! Why would they want to close themselves off from their skills? )
-Vagabonds get an old rusty junker of a car/morotcycle (again, not "prefer")
-Psi Stalkers get a horse or animal mount, or a non-military vehicle (Apparently even cars and other vehicles that would close them off from their supernatural abilities)
-Mind Melters are limited to non-military vehicles and it specifically states that they "almost never pilot robots or power armor."

Yet you keep insisting that a mage would rather pilot a robot, use missiles and lasers, than cast spells. THIS is where we disagree.

Yes. Because you think that "A mage" means "any mage, anywhere at any time", where I think it just means "An individual mage".

In general, I operate under the assumption that mages prefer to survive. Travelling through the hostile wilderness of Rifts Earth, that often means travelling in a vehicle with enough MDC to protect the mage from attacks.

For that matter, I assume that mages prefer convenience to hardship. Which means that if they have to travel 100 miles and can't use Ley Line Teleportation (either because they aren't Line Walkers, or because they have companions or cargo that needs to be taken along), they would have no real problem driving the distance in the comfort of a car, hover car, robot vehicle, airplane, etc. etc. than on a horse, motorcycle, or hovercycle.

And if a GM allows a mage OCC to start off with a robot vehicle when thier OCC says "ANY", that's going to be a high powered, or even munchin campaign. IMHO.

Your opinion is wrong.
Believe it or not, in my adventures at least, most of the plot and combat of an adventure doesn't take place while driving vehicles. The action tends to take place in cities, caves, underground ruins, and other places where a 16' tall robot wouldn't fit.
You seem to think that "Robot Vehicle" means Spider Skull Walker, a Naruni Robot, a Glitterboy, etc., but it doesn't.
I see no reason not to allow a mage to have a Titan Recon Bot, for example. Do you really find the 3d6 single shot mini-laser it comes with to be Munchkin? Or maybe you fear it's mighty 1d6 MD claw/tear attack? Or maybe you are just of the opinion that no player should start off with anything with as much as 270 MDC? Is that what makes it Munchkin?
For that matter, the Titan Combat Bot and Light Combat Bot aren't often going to be significant in one of my games either. Sure, the mage would have an advantage during outdoor combat in the wilderness, but so what? The only time I've has a lot of outdoor wilderness encounters are when the party is travelling through Xiticix or Mechanoid terrirtory.
Xiticix are a "kill all you want, we'll make more" type enemy whose numbers can always be increased enough to provide a challenge. For that matter, any time my players have traveled through bug territory they have gone on foot to avoid being noticed. A robot would only bring them to the bugs' attention.
And the mechanoids could and would make short work of any of the Titan series of bots. Buying the mage a couple rounds while his vehicle is destroyed around him is not what I consider Munchkin.

[Dr. Doom III]

Page 10, Sourcebook 1: "the psionic or mage inside the robot or power armor can not use his paranormal powers to affect anybody outside the armor or bot."

Teleport doesn't affect anyone on the other side of the skin of the vehicle so this passage is irrelevant.

Page 21 of the Book of Magic: "Magic can not penetrate the skin of giant robots, or vehices. Any spell cast inside will only affect the occupants and the internal systems of the vehicle/robot. Likewise, any spell directed at vehicles/robots outside, only [/b]affect the robot itself and can not affect the occupants inside.[/b]"

Also does not affect anyone or anything on the other side of the skin so it is also irrelevant.

Page 19 of the Book of Magic: "Trying to cast magic from inside a vehicle or giant robot is impossible, causing the magical effects/damage to strike those inside the vehilce (can not penetrate the walls of the vehicle; even novice students of magic are taught this). As a result, the spell caster must at least open a window or hatch, and stick his head and upper body out (a nice target for snipers) to weave his magic. Many spells also require line of sight to strike a specific target; the spell caster must be able to see his quarry."

The "target location" is not the target of the magic. That is the object being teleported. The target location is where the mage visualizes sending the target. Unless that rule says the skin of bots and vehicles block thought then it might mean something. It doesn't so it does not.

[Dr. Doom III]

You can always tell when TemporalMage is backed into a corner.
He changes the topic and quits posting for a while, hoping that we've forgotten that he lost.
I've seen Doom admit more readily to being wrong than TM.

Excuse me?? I've never seen Doom admit when he was wrong. Even when faced with an unbeleivable avalanche of facts, he has often stated "I don't like that rule, so I don't use it." Or somthing like that, rather than admit he is wrong!!

It's a rare event like a Bigfoot sighting.
Some even say it never really happened.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

personally i like to get some of the "you can teleport" players in an adventure and i would let them do that but so would and i collect dead character sheets, nothing like magically teleporting pin size fusion blocks into the veins of their characters then having them blow up, because i'm sure their veins don't have that much M.D.C.

[Dr. Doom III]

personally i like to get some of the "you can teleport" players in an adventure and i would let them do that but so would and i collect dead character sheets, nothing like magically teleporting pin size fusion blocks into the veins of their characters then having them blow up, because i'm sure their veins don't have that much M.D.C.

How many NPCs have knowlege of the inside of PCs veins in your campaign?

[Mech-Viper Prime]

since so many mages know how to pilot robot armor,or the insides of a pilot compartment, i guess the same could be said about npcs
besides all my Npcs have medical doctor, demolitions, Biology,Xenology,and are magic casting mofos aint yours

[Dr. Doom III]

since so many mages know how to pilot robot armor,or the insides of a pilot compartment, i guess the same could be said about npcs
besides all my Npcs have medical doctor, demolitions, Biology,Xenology,and are magic casting mofos aint yours

And have worked extensivly on the PCs?

Oh and who cares if mages pilot Bots or not? It's irrelevant.
Just TM trying to confuse the issue.

[Killer Cyborg]

since so many mages know how to pilot robot armor,or the insides of a pilot compartment, i guess the same could be said about npcs
besides all my Npcs have medical doctor, demolitions, Biology,Xenology,and are magic casting mofos aint yours

And if they've already disected the PCs, then they would be familiar with the inside of that person's veins.

Knowing how to pilot a vehicle doesn't mean that you're automatically familiar with the inside of EVERY vehicle.
That's like saying "You've seen one city, you've seen them all..."

[Mech-Viper Prime]

since so many mages know how to pilot robot armor,or the insides of a pilot compartment, i guess the same could be said about npcs
besides all my Npcs have medical doctor, demolitions, Biology,Xenology,and are magic casting mofos aint yours

And have worked extensivly on the PCs?

Oh and who cares if mages pilot Bots or not? It's irrelevant.
Just TM trying to confuse the issue.

who me? TM? afraid not bucket head and if you think so you are WRONG

[Zer0 Kay]

You can always tell when TemporalMage is backed into a corner.
He changes the topic and quits posting for a while, hoping that we've forgotten that he lost.
I've seen Doom admit more readily to being wrong than TM.

Excuse me?? I've never seen Doom admit when he was wrong. Even when faced with an unbeleivable avalanche of facts, he has often stated "I don't like that rule, so I don't use it." Or somthing like that, rather than admit he is wrong!!

It's a rare event like a Bigfoot sighting.
Some even say it never really happened.

I saw it, I saw it!! OK I lied, I lied OK it never happened, never! I know this is fun but please stop hitting me.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Knowing how to pilot a vehicle doesn't mean that you're automatically familiar with the inside of EVERY vehicle.
That's like saying "You've seen one city, you've seen them all..."

yup, sooo true no wonder why every city looks different and different on maps too

but lets look at page 21 of Book of Magic 24.95 Cat. No. 848 I.S.B.N. 157457-069-2
Question"What about power armor, or vechile/giant robots?"
Answer *The same considerations that apply to body armor apply power armor, requiring more P.P.E to be used and roll on the same table.
Magic can not penetrate the skin of giant robots or vechiles. Any spell cast inside will only affect the occupations and internal systems of the vechile/robot. Likewise, any spell directed at vechile/robots outside, only affect the robot itself and can not affect the occupants inside."

hmmm think that covers it
book states it cant so i guess it can not, too many ways to read that huh?

[Zer0 Kay]

personally i like to get some of the "you can teleport" players in an adventure and i would let them do that but so would and i collect dead character sheets, nothing like magically teleporting pin size fusion blocks into the veins of their characters then having them blow up, because i'm sure their veins don't have that much M.D.C.

So the person teleporting these pin size fusion blocks into my body is particularly familiar with the plaque build up in my veins or the hardening etc. etc. each persons body is in a different state of decay. So everyones looks different. Not to mention different sizes, genetic diseases etc... .

[Zer0 Kay]

since so many mages know how to pilot robot armor,or the insides of a pilot compartment, i guess the same could be said about npcs
besides all my Npcs have medical doctor, demolitions, Biology,Xenology,and are magic casting mofos aint yours

Glad all of your NPC have those still doesn't make them familiar with each persons insides. Just like if they changed the insides of the robots every x days, like I mentioned before, may be a good counter measure.

[Zer0 Kay]

since so many mages know how to pilot robot armor,or the insides of a pilot compartment, i guess the same could be said about npcs
besides all my Npcs have medical doctor, demolitions, Biology,Xenology,and are magic casting mofos aint yours

And have worked extensivly on the PCs?

Oh and who cares if mages pilot Bots or not? It's irrelevant.
Just TM trying to confuse the issue.

who me? TM? afraid not bucket head and if you think so you are WRONG

He's saying that Techno Mage is trying to confuse the issue. He doesn't know that KC was the first to bring it up, and that it's just a tangent arguement.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

personally i like to get some of the "you can teleport" players in an adventure and i would let them do that but so would and i collect dead character sheets, nothing like magically teleporting pin size fusion blocks into the veins of their characters then having them blow up, because i'm sure their veins don't have that much M.D.C.

So the person teleporting these pin size fusion blocks into my body is particularly familiar with the plaque build up in my veins or the hardening etc. etc. each persons body is in a different state of decay. So everyones looks different. Not to mention different sizes, genetic diseases etc... .

thank you for making my point, but i wonder about could one teleport into a star ship or is that too pointless?

[Dr. Doom III]

personally i like to get some of the "you can teleport" players in an adventure and i would let them do that but so would and i collect dead character sheets, nothing like magically teleporting pin size fusion blocks into the veins of their characters then having them blow up, because i'm sure their veins don't have that much M.D.C.

So the person teleporting these pin size fusion blocks into my body is particularly familiar with the plaque build up in my veins or the hardening etc. etc. each persons body is in a different state of decay. So everyones looks different. Not to mention different sizes, genetic diseases etc... .

thank you for making my point, but i wonder about could one teleport into a star ship or is that too pointless?

Your point was?

As to the starships of course.

[Zer0 Kay]

Knowing how to pilot a vehicle doesn't mean that you're automatically familiar with the inside of EVERY vehicle.
That's like saying "You've seen one city, you've seen them all..."

yup, sooo true no wonder why every city looks different and different on maps too

but lets look at page 21 of Book of Magic 24.95 Cat. No. 848 I.S.B.N. 157457-069-2
Question"What about power armor, or vechile/giant robots?"
Answer *The same considerations that apply to body armor apply power armor, requiring more P.P.E to be used and roll on the same table.
Magic can not penetrate the skin of giant robots or vechiles. Any spell cast inside will only affect the occupations and internal systems of the vechile/robot. Likewise, any spell directed at vechile/robots outside, only affect the robot itself and can not affect the occupants inside."

hmmm think that covers it
book states it cant so i guess it can not, too many ways to read that huh?

Yeah it covers it Teleport works because your not casting it at something outside the target is the person or item your trying to teleport. Which should be already where you are. Teleport doesn't penetrate the skin it is simply here then there. The pharse target location in the Teleport text refers to desired location which refers to visualized location. So unless the skinn of vehicles suddenly causes amnesia, (I suddenly forgot where I live) which would be equally bad for CS pilots (what were we doing again?), then Teleport works.

AGAIN
1. Does not target something on opposite side of robot skinn.
2. Used on people items on same side of skinn as you.
3. Does not traverse any distance. Only tachyons travel faster than light( and there theoretical in real world anyway but since this in a sci-fi world and we're arguing teleport then I guess it's fair), going the speed of light it takes 2 tenths of a second to goto the otherside of the earth (assuming your on the equator). Using teleport you get their instantaniously, not 2 tenths, not 2 hundredths of a second instantaniously. So rather than anything passing through the "skin" it is simply folding the space that surrounds the object that is being teleported. So that here is there but no longer here.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Knowing how to pilot a vehicle doesn't mean that you're automatically familiar with the inside of EVERY vehicle.
That's like saying "You've seen one city, you've seen them all..."

yup, sooo true no wonder why every city looks different and different on maps too

but lets look at page 21 of Book of Magic 24.95 Cat. No. 848 I.S.B.N. 157457-069-2
Question"What about power armor, or vechile/giant robots?"
Answer *The same considerations that apply to body armor apply power armor, requiring more P.P.E to be used and roll on the same table.
Magic can not penetrate the skin of giant robots or vechiles. Any spell cast inside will only affect the occupations and internal systems of the vechile/robot. Likewise, any spell directed at vechile/robots outside, only affect the robot itself and can not affect the occupants inside."

hmmm think that covers it
book states it cant so i guess it can not, too many ways to read that huh?

Yeah it covers it Teleport works because your not casting it at something outside the target is the person or item your trying to teleport. Which should be already where you are. Teleport doesn't penetrate the skin it is simply here then there. The pharse target location in the Teleport text refers to desired location which refers to visualized location. So unless the skinn of vehicles suddenly causes amnesia, (I suddenly forgot where I live) which would be equally bad for CS pilots (what were we doing again?), then Teleport works.

AGAIN
1. Does not target something on opposite side of robot skinn.
2. Used on people items on same side of skinn as you.
3. Does not traverse any distance. Only tachyons travel faster than light( and there theoretical in real world anyway but since this in a sci-fi world and we're arguing teleport then I guess it's fair), going the speed of light it takes 2 tenths of a second to goto the otherside of the earth (assuming your on the equator). Using teleport you get their instantaniously, not 2 tenths, not 2 hundredths of a second instantaniously. So rather than anything passing through the "skin" it is simply folding the space that surrounds the object that is being teleported. So that here is there but no longer here.

Magic can not penetrate the skin of giant robots or vechiles. mean it can't fold in either

[Zer0 Kay]

personally i like to get some of the "you can teleport" players in an adventure and i would let them do that but so would and i collect dead character sheets, nothing like magically teleporting pin size fusion blocks into the veins of their characters then having them blow up, because i'm sure their veins don't have that much M.D.C.

So the person teleporting these pin size fusion blocks into my body is particularly familiar with the plaque build up in my veins or the hardening etc. etc. each persons body is in a different state of decay. So everyones looks different. Not to mention different sizes, genetic diseases etc... .

thank you for making my point, but i wonder about could one teleport into a star ship or is that too pointless?

What is your point about starships? According to what makes sense, yes you could. According to you guys who may be reading the words out of the book but not understanding them, no because it is still a vehicle.

The point of doing that if a mage from one of the stations wanted to come down and was of high enough level he could without having to penetrate the barrier. If he decided he wanted to bring other magi back ( I don't know why maybe to help in summoning, maybe they've decided their gene pool is getting too shallow) he could teleport some back. It would be better, however, to just give other high level magi pictures of videos so they could teleport even more up.

[Zer0 Kay]

Knowing how to pilot a vehicle doesn't mean that you're automatically familiar with the inside of EVERY vehicle.
That's like saying "You've seen one city, you've seen them all..."

yup, sooo true no wonder why every city looks different and different on maps too

but lets look at page 21 of Book of Magic 24.95 Cat. No. 848 I.S.B.N. 157457-069-2
Question"What about power armor, or vechile/giant robots?"
Answer *The same considerations that apply to body armor apply power armor, requiring more P.P.E to be used and roll on the same table.
Magic can not penetrate the skin of giant robots or vechiles. Any spell cast inside will only affect the occupations and internal systems of the vechile/robot. Likewise, any spell directed at vechile/robots outside, only affect the robot itself and can not affect the occupants inside."

hmmm think that covers it
book states it cant so i guess it can not, too many ways to read that huh?

Yeah it covers it Teleport works because your not casting it at something outside the target is the person or item your trying to teleport. Which should be already where you are. Teleport doesn't penetrate the skin it is simply here then there. The pharse target location in the Teleport text refers to desired location which refers to visualized location. So unless the skinn of vehicles suddenly causes amnesia, (I suddenly forgot where I live) which would be equally bad for CS pilots (what were we doing again?), then Teleport works.

AGAIN
1. Does not target something on opposite side of robot skinn.
2. Used on people items on same side of skinn as you.
3. Does not traverse any distance. Only tachyons travel faster than light( and there theoretical in real world anyway but since this in a sci-fi world and we're arguing teleport then I guess it's fair), going the speed of light it takes 2 tenths of a second to goto the otherside of the earth (assuming your on the equator). Using teleport you get their instantaniously, not 2 tenths, not 2 hundredths of a second instantaniously. So rather than anything passing through the "skin" it is simply folding the space that surrounds the object that is being teleported. So that here is there but no longer here.

Magic can not penetrate the skin of giant robots or vechiles. mean it can't fold in either

All right then if we're gonna argue that way again. I'll teleport the machine out from under you. HOWS THAT ? Well if magic can't penetrate through the skin, and we all know that the rules say that magic can't affect anything on the other side of the skin then the teleport spell wouldn't affect those within and just affect the robot. There a much more unballanced effect of teleport. Now the SoT is deffinately changed, since all the mages just teleport the machines away. Leaving their squishy insides for dragons and other things that may find humans in armor to be canned food.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

ok guess that might work, never thought about that

[Zer0 Kay]

ok guess that might work, never thought about that

Like I said before. The rule was probably written for people who were trying to be supermunchy and cast fireball and call lightning and a bunch of other direct fire spells through the viewports or the hands of the robot (But comon the robot is an extension of my mage.)

The only thing I MIGHT allow that in is an RT mecha since it is supposed to be an extension of the pilot through the protoculture, but probably not...unless you had telemechanics and learned what protoculture actually was. The only way in any mecha that I'd allow it would be if the caster had telemechanics possession (which probably states that the person can't use any other powers while in possession of the machine). Find me a mage that has that power though.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

prootculture now we are adding protoculture into this?

[Zer0 Kay]

prootculture now we are adding protoculture into this?

Hey it's just like Rifts...at least this thread is. Crossed all over the Megaverse.

[Zer0 Kay]

In the Opinions on Lazlo thread, the "Queen Check" strategy has been brought to our attention by Psi-Hound. Psi-Hound tells us that in the Xitixic Invasion World Book, the Queen Check strategy employed by Lazlo mage strike teams involves using magic and psionics to peer into the MDC hives and teleport into the queen's chamber to cut down the queen.

Now, it has been awhile since I went through that book or fought in or around the hivelands, and I don't have any of my books with me at the moment. But, if the queen chambers are described in any book as "environmentally sealed" then operation Queen Check would be a precedent for using magic to penetrate sealed MDC structures, including teleport.

We should check this out. It might settle the thread once and for all. Even though a hive is not a giant robot or vehicle, most poeple contend that robots and vehicles are imune to teleportation because of the MDC barrier to the outside environment. If Lazlo mages are teleporting into sealed queen chambers, this would dispell that argument. If the hives are completely unsealed, then I guess the thread goes on!

Somebody please check this out!

I'd love too...if I owned the book.

[Killer Cyborg]

Knowing how to pilot a vehicle doesn't mean that you're automatically familiar with the inside of EVERY vehicle.
That's like saying "You've seen one city, you've seen them all..."

yup, sooo true no wonder why every city looks different and different on maps too

Congratulations!
You accidentally caught my point.
Kind of.

but lets look at page 21 of Book of Magic 24.95 Cat. No. 848 I.S.B.N. 157457-069-2
Question"What about power armor, or vechile/giant robots?"
Answer *The same considerations that apply to body armor apply power armor, requiring more P.P.E to be used and roll on the same table.
Magic can not penetrate the skin of giant robots or vechiles. Any spell cast inside will only affect the occupations and internal systems of the vechile/robot. Likewise, any spell directed at vechile/robots outside, only affect the robot itself and can not affect the occupants inside."

hmmm think that covers it
book states it cant so i guess it can not, too many ways to read that huh?

If that covered it, then things would have been solved on p. 1 of this thread.
Restating ancient arguments isn't helpful.

[Killer Cyborg]

In the Opinions on Lazlo thread, the "Queen Check" strategy has been brought to our attention by Psi-Hound. Psi-Hound tells us that in the Xitixic Invasion World Book, the Queen Check strategy employed by Lazlo mage strike teams involves using magic and psionics to peer into the MDC hives and teleport into the queen's chamber to cut down the queen.

Now, it has been awhile since I went through that book or fought in or around the hivelands, and I don't have any of my books with me at the moment. But, if the queen chambers are described in any book as "environmentally sealed" then operation Queen Check would be a precedent for using magic to penetrate sealed MDC structures, including teleport.

We should check this out. It might settle the thread once and for all. Even though a hive is not a giant robot or vehicle, most poeple contend that robots and vehicles are imune to teleportation because of the MDC barrier to the outside environment. If Lazlo mages are teleporting into sealed queen chambers, this would dispell that argument. If the hives are completely unsealed, then I guess the thread goes on!

Somebody please check this out!

1. Why would the queen's chambers be environmentally sealed?
2. It doesn't matter, because environmental sealing has nothing to do with the topic any longer. It's irrelevent to magic penetration.

[Temporalmage]

Page 10, Sourcebook 1: "the psionic or mage inside the robot or power armor can not use his paranormal powers to affect anybody outside the armor or bot."

Teleport doesn't affect anyone on the other side of the skin of the vehicle so this passage is irrelevant.

Teleporting is entering, and entering can effect whoever is already there. If you insist that a mage teleporting in isn't effecting anyone inside, then you leave open the door to someone teleporting in a fusion block, which decidedly WOULD effect whoever was there. You can't open the teleport door without degrading your own argument.

Page 21 of the Book of Magic: "Magic can not penetrate the skin of giant robots, or vehices. Any spell cast inside will only affect the occupants and the internal systems of the vehicle/robot. Likewise, any spell directed at vehicles/robots outside, only [/b]affect the robot itself and can not affect the occupants inside.[/b]"

Also does not affect anyone or anything on the other side of the skin so it is also irrelevant.

Same thing as above. Your argument leaves interpretation even more skewed than it already is. "Magic can't penetrate..." Is pretty cut and dried. Yet you insist that it's sopposed to say "Magic can't penetrate, except for teleport spells..." Which is absolutly incorrect.

Page 19 of the Book of Magic: "Trying to cast magic from inside a vehicle or giant robot is impossible, causing the magical effects/damage to strike those inside the vehilce (can not penetrate the walls of the vehicle; even novice students of magic are taught this). As a result, the spell caster must at least open a window or hatch, and stick his head and upper body out (a nice target for snipers) to weave his magic. Many spells also require line of sight to strike a specific target; the spell caster must be able to see his quarry."

The "target location" is not the target of the magic. That is the object being teleported. The target location is where the mage visualizes sending the target. Unless that rule says the skin of bots and vehicles block thought then it might mean something. It doesn't so it does not.

I have always seen your viewpoint on this, but I just don't buy it. Besides it's irrelevant really. Magic can't penetrate a robot or vehicle. Period. So if a mage has to get half-way out of a robot/vehicle to have a spell effect the outside of the vehicle, the inverse would also be true. A mage would have to get half-way inside the vehicle to effect the inside of the robot/vehicle. Teleport is an energy, (Page 162 of the main book), and that energy would transport the mage from his starting location to his final destination when teleporting. That energy could be thought of as a beam, ray, rainbow, car, bus, train or whatever analogy you want to use that transports the mage from one location to another. And as the spell describes it will indeed take the mage anyplace he wants to go, within reason. BUT... at the same time magic can't penetrate a robot or vehicle. So the end result would be that that energy that is transporting the mage, instantaniously, isn't going to be able to penetrate the robot or vehicle, either by useing space fold, tacyons, some God's pair of tweezers, or whatever fantasy beleifs you have or insist that teleport uses. Period!!!

[Temporalmage]

personally i like to get some of the "you can teleport" players in an adventure and i would let them do that but so would and i collect dead character sheets, nothing like magically teleporting pin size fusion blocks into the veins of their characters then having them blow up, because i'm sure their veins don't have that much M.D.C.

So the person teleporting these pin size fusion blocks into my body is particularly familiar with the plaque build up in my veins or the hardening etc. etc. each persons body is in a different state of decay. So everyones looks different. Not to mention different sizes, genetic diseases etc... .

This would be simple if the mage used the spell "X-ray Vision" just prior to teleporting. X-ray Vision is a 7th level spell in Palladium Fantasy that only costs 25 PPE to cast, for a grand total of 40 PPE spent to instantly kill someone. Oddly enough perfectly legal as far as the rules go.

thank you for making my point, but i wonder about could one teleport into a star ship or is that too pointless?

As to the starships of course.

Please tell us exactly where it states that you can? Book and page number please.
It deffinatly seems odd that none of the Phase World stuff I've read have mentioned that a mage could teleport into a starship. Instead it has starships with such things as ramprows (Demon Stars in Three Galaxies book), or robots that just smash through the hulls (Battleram Attack Robot, Phase World book). But I've never seen any mention of teleporting into a starship. Rifting, usually on accident, sure. But not teleporting.

[Killer Cyborg]

See what I mean?

Whenever TM is stuck, he latches onto something we've gone over 1,000 times before, or a tangent, or a side conversation, and hopes that whoever he was arguing with forgets what they were saying.

[Dr. Doom III]

Teleporting is entering, and entering can effect whoever is already there. If you insist that a mage teleporting in isn't effecting anyone inside, then you leave open the door to someone teleporting in a fusion block, which decidedly WOULD effect whoever was there. You can't open the teleport door without degrading your own argument.

No it doesn't.
If a fusion block were teleported in the magic still wouldn't affect anything.
The exploding fusion block would. The act of teleporting affects nothing but the object being teleported.

Same thing as above. Your argument leaves interpretation even more skewed than it already is. "Magic can't penetrate..." Is pretty cut and dried. Yet you insist that it's sopposed to say "Magic can't penetrate, except for teleport spells..." Which is absolutly incorrect.

It would be cut and dried if the passage stopped there. It doesn't. And it still doesn't penetrate or affect anything. What is says is Magic can't penetrate to do this. Which teleport doesn't do.

I have always seen your viewpoint on this, but I just don't buy it. Besides it's irrelevant really. Magic can't penetrate a robot or vehicle. Period. So if a mage has to get half-way out of a robot/vehicle to have a spell effect the outside of the vehicle, the inverse would also be true. A mage would have to get half-way inside the vehicle to effect the inside of the robot/vehicle. Teleport is an energy, (Page 162 of the main book), and that energy would transport the mage from his starting location to his final destination when teleporting. That energy could be thought of as a beam, ray, rainbow, car, bus, train or whatever analogy you want to use that transports the mage from one location to another. And as the spell describes it will indeed take the mage anyplace he wants to go, within reason. BUT... at the same time magic can't penetrate a robot or vehicle. So the end result would be that that energy that is transporting the mage, instantaniously, isn't going to be able to penetrate the robot or vehicle, either by useing space fold, tacyons, some God's pair of tweezers, or whatever fantasy beleifs you have or insist that teleport uses. Period!!!

Sorry but you are wrong.

[Dr. Doom III]

Please tell us exactly where it states that you can? Book and page number please.

Rifts Main Book Pg. 177
"...instantly transported from the location of the spell weaver to any location miles away. The only requirements are that the mage touches the object... and that the location to where it is being sent is known to him."

Bold added for emphasis.

[MrTwist]

Because I really don't feel like going through tons of posts, can someone tell me why magic can't penetrate the skins of vehicles and giant robots?

I know the rules state it, but ignore that for a moment. Why can't they penetrate?

[Dr. Doom III]

Because I really don't feel like going through tons of posts, can someone tell me why magic can't penetrate the skins of vehicles and giant robots?

I know the rules state it, but ignore that for a moment. Why can't they penetrate?

Because you can't see to target anything on the inside from the outside and vice versa. You need an unobstructed view and in the case of magic even a window is an obstruction.

[MrTwist]

Because I really don't feel like going through tons of posts, can someone tell me why magic can't penetrate the skins of vehicles and giant robots?

I know the rules state it, but ignore that for a moment. Why can't they penetrate?

Because you can't see to target anything on the inside from the outside and vice versa. You need an unobstructed view and in the case of magic even a window is an obstruction.

That's pretty silly then, if a window is an obstruction. You can cast spells out of power armor, and since the reverse is most likely true, into power armor.

Sounds like a good reason, but that would make it impossible to target someone in power armor. Has to be something else.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

personally i like to know where it says you can teleport inside power armor or a vechile, enlighten me

[MrTwist]

personally i like to know where it says you can teleport inside power armor or a vechile, enlighten me

Uhm, it never does. The vehicle thing is part of what is being argued. For the power armor part, power armor is not proof against magic.

Edit - I like the description given to the reason why psionics generally don't work on the interiors vehicles and giant robots, and the requirements that must be met if they are to affect those inside. It's in the GM's guide.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Question"What about power armor, or vechile/giant robots?"
Answer *The same considerations that apply to body armor apply power armor, requiring more P.P.E to be used and roll on the same table.
Magic can not penetrate the skin of giant robots or vechiles. Any spell cast inside will only affect the occupations and internal systems of the vechile/robot. Likewise, any spell directed at vechile/robots outside, only affect the robot itself and can not affect the occupants inside."

since that is word for word out of the book of magic
teleport:lesser
the power to transmit(i guess kinda like radio waves) so i guess that is blocked since magic can not penetrate

as for page 10 of sb1 its more geared towards a psi stalker track a mage and not a mage casting teleport

and page 19 is more casting from inside of a vechile

[MrTwist]

Question"What about power armor, or vechile/giant robots?"
Answer *The same considerations that apply to body armor apply power armor, requiring more P.P.E to be used and roll on the same table.
Magic can not penetrate the skin of giant robots or vechiles. Any spell cast inside will only affect the occupations and internal systems of the vechile/robot. Likewise, any spell directed at vechile/robots outside, only affect the robot itself and can not affect the occupants inside."

since that is word for word out of the book of magic
teleport:lesser
the power to transmit(i guess kinda like radio waves) so i guess that is blocked since magic can not penetrate

as for page 10 of sb1 its more geared towards a psi stalker track a mage and not a mage casting teleport

and page 19 is more casting from inside of a vechile

The SB1 rule is for psi-stalkers, but the GMG pretty much has revised that, along with BoM. The SB1 blurb is out dated.

And the quote out of BoM shows you can use magic while inside power armor, so the 'skin' is not proof against it.

[Killer Cyborg]

1. Why would the queen's chambers be environmentally sealed?
2. It doesn't matter, because environmental sealing has nothing to do with the topic any longer. It's irrelevent to magic penetration.

1. The chamber is supposed to protect the queen. Maybe she has allergies to nerve toxins.

2. I must be behind the times. Has it been decided that its ok to teleport into an fully sealed MDC bunker from the outside? Because that's what a Xitixic queen's chamber might turn out to be, and that's what Lazlo mages are doing. Alas, without my books...

I've pointed out several times the place where the BoM is discussing vehicles. It mentions that a mage has to stick his body halfway out a window in order to cast a spell outside of the vehicle. Otherwise, he could be driving his car along, all four windows down, and still not be able to cast out.

[Killer Cyborg]

Because I really don't feel like going through tons of posts, can someone tell me why magic can't penetrate the skins of vehicles and giant robots?

I know the rules state it, but ignore that for a moment. Why can't they penetrate?

I've asked this before, and here are the answers I got:

Doom says it must be line of sight. That doesn't make complete sense because you can look out through windows on a lot of vehicles. The passage talking about a mage hanging halfway out a window in order to cast could be a particularly poor attempt to describe a mage attempting to get a better view of somebody, but it doesn't seem to be.

Another person claimed that it was Environmental Sealing, but I disproved that by pointing out the whole "mage hanging out a window" passage. Also, the book doesn't say "environmentally sealed vehicles", just "vehicles."

Finally, a couple people have said that it must be MDC materials that keep magic from penetrating, but once again the book just says "Vehicles", not "MDC Vehicles."


My own personal opinion is that everybody is reading way too much into the rule. Basically, it's just there to keep people from casting fireballs out of tanks or robots. You can't cast magic out of a vehicle for the same reason you can't cast magic through a wall.
Needless to say, it doesn't apply to any magic that is meant to penetrate walls, such as teleportation.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

perhaps the same reason why cybernetics disrupts the magic channelling in mages or perhaps its the armor(thickness,wiring, etc,etc) its self that provides a shield from magic,or perhaps its something esle that stops it

[Killer Cyborg]

perhaps the same reason why cybernetics disrupts the magic channelling in mages or perhaps its the armor(thickness,wiring, etc,etc) its self that provides a shield from magic,or perhaps its something esle that stops it

As I've pointed out, an Oregon Trail style covered wagon is a vehicle.
It has no armor (well, canvass), the walls aren't thick, there is no wiring.
Now, TM might say "But it's common sense that they didn't mean vehicles like that!"
But if that's a valid argument, then so is "It's common sense that the rule doesn't apply to Teleport."

[Mech-Viper Prime]

yes, it could, but for the common sense i can see some not using it

[Mack]

It's Rifts. It doesn't have to make sense.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

yup, whats common sense doing in a debate

[Zer0 Kay]

personally i like to get some of the "you can teleport" players in an adventure and i would let them do that but so would and i collect dead character sheets, nothing like magically teleporting pin size fusion blocks into the veins of their characters then having them blow up, because i'm sure their veins don't have that much M.D.C.

So the person teleporting these pin size fusion blocks into my body is particularly familiar with the plaque build up in my veins or the hardening etc. etc. each persons body is in a different state of decay. So everyones looks different. Not to mention different sizes, genetic diseases etc... .

This would be simple if the mage used the spell "X-ray Vision" just prior to teleporting. X-ray Vision is a 7th level spell in Palladium Fantasy that only costs 25 PPE to cast, for a grand total of 40 PPE spent to instantly kill someone. Oddly enough perfectly legal as far as the rules go.

Probably why it isn't one of the Rifts mage spells. Besides it probably allows vision through solid objects. Not selective vision through varying depths of tissue. So its probably see all the way through the person or not at all or maybe they actually see like an x-ray so it wouldn't be detailed enough to teleport. Hey I think I just answered my question on if a mage can t-port just with blueprints. It is the most detailed document of the robot but not detailed enough as far as real world. I don't know maybe if the guy did have techno-can he could visualize it as a 3d image.

thank you for making my point, but i wonder about could one teleport into a star ship or is that too pointless?

As to the starships of course.

Please tell us exactly where it states that you can? Book and page number please.
It deffinatly seems odd that none of the Phase World stuff I've read have mentioned that a mage could teleport into a starship. Instead it has starships with such things as ramprows (Demon Stars in Three Galaxies book), or robots that just smash through the hulls (Battleram Attack Robot, Phase World book). But I've never seen any mention of teleporting into a starship. Rifting, usually on accident, sure. But not teleporting.

Gee wouldn't Rifting by accident even be, oh I don't know...magic piercing the skin!!?