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Temporalmage wrote:Magic alone is pointless. What can magic do when it's not directed? Pretty much the only thing is sit in a ley line. In order for magic to acomplish anything, such as a teleport spell, it MUST be directed. Can magic by itself lift a table? Light a fire? Or any of the multitude of things that Directed magic can? I think not.

Dr. Doom III wrote:

Temporalmage wrote:Magic alone is pointless. What can magic do when it's not directed? Pretty much the only thing is sit in a ley line. In order for magic to acomplish anything, such as a teleport spell, it MUST be directed. Can magic by itself lift a table? Light a fire? Or any of the multitude of things that Directed magic can? I think not.

You mean like a ley line storm?

Temporalmage wrote: ["Any spell cast inside will only affect the occupants and the internal systems of the vehicle/robot."

Temporalmage wrote: "Magic can not penetrate the skin of giant robots, or vehicles." Seems self evident and self explanitory to me.
"Any spell cast inside will only affect the occupants and the internal systems of the vehicle/robot."
So any spell that you wish to cast, any thats in the books, will not be able to get out of the vehicle. Even if you have some sort of line of sight. Unless you wish to effect your companion or some aspect of the interior of the robot of course. Seems simple enough.

Temporalmage wrote:Ah, but a ley line storm is an accidental effect of magic that is dormant. Kinda like a presure cooker. Eventually it's gonna blow. But a "natural" ley line storm is no more directed than the ley line itself. It simply travles down a set path, which is to say the ley lines. A directed ley line storm is much differant, and much more dangerous also. Because it's directed.

Just curious but what does a ley line storm have to do with this topic anyway??

Zer0 Kay wrote:The spell doesn't target the location. The caster targets what he wishes to teleport and visualizes the location. All the failure rates are essentially wether or not the mage is able to visualise the "target" correctly/clearly (if his memory is foggy or if the picture is current enough or detailed enough). I put it target in quotes because it is only a target in his mind.

So the only way to argue that he wouldn't be able to teleport into the GR or V is if somehow the MDC skin made it so that he was unable to imagine/visualize the location to be teleported to. If the mage even has blue prints and can read Technocan he should be able to visualise the insides. In this case if there was a recent mod where an extra seat or the interior paint job was changed then he shouldn't be able to teleport or would end up teleporting to another one that does look like the blueprints. Even the blueprints shouldn't be 100% teleport because he still doesn't have an exact idea of what the interior really looks like. Blueprints don't always list colors.

I don't think I'd allow teleport into GR or Vs because the mage has never been in that particular unit. As I asked before and no one answered. How does the mage teleport into one specific Spider Skull Walker? Does he send some fuzzy dice to the crew as a present and hope they hang it up? Then with his knowledge of the blueprints and the fuzzy dice is he then able to teleport into a specific SKW? Saying that the numbers on the hulls would allow him to specify would be cheap. The mage needs to visualize where he wants to end up not what is on the outside of it.

Beatleguise wrote:I hope this forum uses Energizers.

Zer0 Kay wrote:

Temporalmage wrote: ["Any spell cast inside will only affect the occupants and the internal systems of the vehicle/robot."

So if your teleporting into a giant robot into an empty space how is that affecting occupants or internal systems of the vehicle/robot? Air is not a system and though it occupies space I don't think it's an occupant. If the occupants are able to sense the change in air density I don't think that would count as affecting occupants. Besides that would be the air not the spell itself.

Dr. Doom III wrote:

Temporalmage wrote:Ah, but a ley line storm is an accidental effect of magic that is dormant. Kinda like a presure cooker. Eventually it's gonna blow. But a "natural" ley line storm is no more directed than the ley line itself. It simply travles down a set path, which is to say the ley lines. A directed ley line storm is much differant, and much more dangerous also. Because it's directed.

Just curious but what does a ley line storm have to do with this topic anyway??

A ley line storm is undirected magic.
They do a lot of things including teleporting stuff.

Tyciol, you make a very good argument. And perhaps the way I've been stating it could be construed the way you've suggested. I'm sorry for any confusion and will explain myself a bit better.

Any teleport spell or ability works by taking one object and instantaniously transporting it to a differant location. This is how both teleport spells and dragons teleport abilities would seem to work. I consider it more of a shifting effect. The object simply ceases to exist in one place and blinks into existance in a seperate place. Thus in my campaigns there is a "bamf" type sound that is heard on both ends as air is either rushed into the spot that is instantly vacated, or suddenly displaced as the object appears. There is no seperate dimensional pocket/wormhole effect/or whatnot. The magic is just a simple your in one spot and "poof" your in another.
Now what ever is in between is irrelivant to a teleport spell. Teleporting from one side of a radiation zone to the other side isn't going to subject the caster to the effects of radiation, neither would an anti-magic cloud placed somwhere inbetween have any adverse effect. That would be like having someone teleport from thier house to the local bar and appear soaked if it happens to be raining outside.
The ruling in Source Book 1 has always suggested to me that magic could not pass through the thick MDC of Robots and vehicles. (For a compleate quote look elsewhere on this topic) It's never been stated as to why this happens, just that magic, and specifically paranormal powers, cannot work in either direction.
The Book of Magic has overruled the passage when it comes to power armor. It seems that while mages in Rifts can no longer wear environmental armor, (at least without major complications) they can now cast magic through power armor. (Though with some even greater penelties) Yet the BOM does indeed tell us that casting magic through robots or vehicles is still impossible.
Now I've been accused of only looking at one sentance in the BOM. So lets tear the passage in question appart and take it step by step shall we?
"Magic can not penetrate the skin of giant robots, or vehicles." Seems self evident and self explanitory to me.
"Any spell cast inside will only affect the occupants and the internal systems of the vehicle/robot."
So any spell that you wish to cast, any thats in the books, will not be able to get out of the vehicle. Even if you have some sort of line of sight. Unless you wish to effect your companion or some aspect of the interior of the robot of course. Seems simple enough.
"Likewise, any spell directed at vehicles/robots outside, only affect the robot itself and can not affect the occupants inside."
Hmm. So if I can see the pilot of a robot, and wish to Swap places with him, as per the 13th level "Swap Places" spell, (which by the way is a type of teleport spell) then it wouldn't be possible. Because you can not affect anyone inside a robot vehicle, from the outside of it. If I wish to teleport into the vehicle, and direct my teleport spell at the vehicle, then it would only affect the robot's outside, not being able to deposit me inside.

Now as I've said in the past, teleport MUST target the final location of a teleport. It's simply logical. I'm sorry but no matter what type of teleportation that you believe in, or use. Pocket dimension, wormhole, sliding, gods hand with a pair of tweezers.....the magic takes the object/person, and places them somplace else. There is no pushing, shoving, or any other type of kinetic effect happening. The person wouldn't feal any type of inertia from a teleport. Yet they have travled several hundereds of miles. Why? Because it's magic. And it would be in effect for the exact time that a teleport is in effect. Which is to say instantaniously. But that same magic would indeed be felt at both the location you teleported from, and the one you arrived at. By dogboys, psi-stalkers, etc. Because magic has been used in both areas simultaniously. Probably why the spell takes so much PPE if ya think about it.

Temporalmage wrote:
Oh ya, one more thing Zero...I have answered your question before. Even if the mage had a compleate blueprint, color photo, video scan, or whatever of the inside of a robot or vehicle...if it's sealed up the mage could never teleport inside.

Temporalmage wrote: Ya got anything to say about the rest of the rather lengthy post I made? Anything constructive I should say?? I'll help ya out and repost the thing right here:

Dr. Doom III wrote:No.
I refuted all those points about six times already.

svartalf wrote:Sorry, but what does the bot/vehicle being sealed have to do with anything?

I agree that blueprints or the like would not help any in teleporting into a place, but a good picture, or familiarity with the specific vehicle definitely would (that, and the availability of room to telport to, or we stand to have a choice between failure and horrible backfire)... and if those conditions were met, he could get in, seal or not.

and sorry... but you contradict yourself. if a teleport is an instant transference, with no regard at all for whatever may be between point A and point B, then how come you insist that the spell must target the destination point? (it doesn't of course, its only targets, for purpose of the armored shell rule is whatever it is meant to affect))

svartalf wrote: Having the support of Doom is no hindrance either.

I agree that blueprints or the like would not help any in teleporting into a place, but a good picture, or familiarity with the specific vehicle definitely would (that, and the availability of room to telport to, or we stand to have a choice between failure and horrible backfire)... and if those conditions were met, he could get in, seal or not.

and sorry... but you contradict yourself. if a teleport is an instant transference, with no regard at all for whatever may be between point A and point B, then how come you insist that the spell must target the destination point? (it doesn't of course, its only targets, for purpose of the armored shell rule is whatever it is meant to affect))

Temporalmage wrote:

svartalf wrote: Having the support of Doom is no hindrance either.

Having the support of the President couldn't hurt either. Unless you realize that the President is just a guy that won a popularity contest. Being the President just means your popular, doesn't mean your right.

svartalf wrote:actually, you're already interpreting the rule heavily. There is no mention of the effect of a vehicle being sealed, ever. Actually, some vehicles, like the Triax haulers are never really sealed (as in environmentally separating the inside from the outside) but they are quite massive, and I would definitely apply the rule to them. What you say about a mage being able to cast through an open window or door exploits breaks through the shell and the fact that this definitely establishes a line of sight, but has fairly little bearing with a "seal". Personally, I'm still wondering if you can cast a spell at a target inside a building, through an ordinary, closed glass window. Also, remember that a teleport is direct transference, with no regard at all for what is between departure and arrival points, so breaks in the shell are immaterial, either you can 'port into a bot or vehicle (if usual conditions are met), or you can't, and environmental seal, or the presence of an open door or window is of no import at all.g

we come back to the old basic stumbling point. my point is that the rule is satisfied by being applied to the extent I say, rather than the blanket extent you give it. there may be no armored shell between the mage and what will be teleported, but beyond that, the rule stops. This particular brand of magic is *geared toward* sending an item or person to point B, whatever might be in between. With this interpretation, things stay more or less logical (as much as can be when dealing with magic). If I accept your version, I'll wonder what in reality, or the game system makes it so that I can port into or out of a sealed installation buried under miles of rock in a mountain, but that the shell of a power armor, bot, or large vehicle is a secure and teleport proof barrier. Of course, I won't find any understandable explanation, and would have to add that to the list of game rules that are pointless but to be enforced... I hate pointless rules, especially when I've got some logical (actually, to me self-evident to the point that I never thought of it until I saw the matter raised on these boards) interpretation of the rule text that makes good sense .

Fact is, Teleport magic does not in the slightest affect the destination point : it affects the target person(s) or object by sending them to the mentioned location. Since there was no obstacle between mage and target(s) at casting time, the rule is respected, the presence of an armored shell between A and B, like the presence of material obstacles, rain, radiation, anti magic clouds or whatever just doesn't matter at all, because the bot, PA or vehicle won't be affected...

svartalf wrote:Far as I know, Doom is as likely to win a popularity contest as I am myself. From what I've heard, and what I've been able to see for myself, he has a mastery of the Rulez that give weight to his opinions ... if officials were elected on the same grounds, the political arena would get cleared in a jiffy.

Temporalmage wrote:Book Of Magic, page 21:
Magic can not penetrate the skin of giant robots, or vehicles. Any spell cast inside will only affect the occupants and the internal systems of the vehicle/robot. Likewise, any spell directed at vehicles/robots outside, only affect the robot itself and can not affect the occupants inside.

Your refuting this? Or ignoring it? Seems you can't refute a written rule, only ignore it.

Tyciol wrote:I call ball boy! If Kramer can do it so can I!

Dr. Doom III wrote:Doom refutes your interpretation of that.

For what the seventh time?
Teleport does not affect anything inside the vehicle and the spell descriptions saying anywhere clearly shows that they can teleport someone or something anywhere including inside vehicles.

Temporalmage wrote:Refute all you want. It's plain english. The spell teleport would be directed at the target vehicle, and so could not teleport inside. Your only looking at one word to back your statements up. "Anywhere". This word still has to obey the laws of magic that apply to all spells except those that specifically state otherwise. And the word "anywhere" just isnt' enough of an exceptive statemnent to apply. Surely in over 20 books there would be some sort of example of someone teleporting inside of a vehicle? Or even teleporting somthing as benign as flowers into a vehicle? No there is not. Seems you have hung your argument on a single word this time Doom. Somthing you once accused me of doing! By the way the spell Teleport Superior in the BOM does not say "anywhere". Though admitadly that spell has some printing errors, at least in my book.

A mystic portal would work as the magic follows the rule. It works by affecting the robot from the outside, and is indeed directed at the robot itself. Swap Places, a type of teleportation spell, would not as it targets the person inside the vehicle. The spell 4-D transformation would also work as the caster is 4-D at the time and normal things have the same effect on him as air. There are ways to gain intrance to vehciles. Just not by teleportation.

I don't care about the score...it's the final point that counts!

Writers Block wrote:I am still waiting on the simple explaination I asked for so long ago...what does the fact a vehicle is environmentally sealed have to do with blocking a magic that can move me miles across any terrain in an instant? What about environ sealing causes this protection?

Writers Block wrote:I am still waiting on the simple explaination I asked for so long ago...what does the fact a vehicle is environmentally sealed have to do with blocking a magic that can move me miles across any terrain in an instant? What about environ sealing causes this protection?

Dr. Doom III wrote:As I've said before the only reason you can't cast a spell on someone inside a vehicle/bot from the outside is because of line of sight issues.
Teleport of course not being a spell affected by line of sight.

Temporalmage wrote:I'm sorry...what kind of explanation are you looking for? There is no explanation given, just the rule. It's the same explanation as all rules of the game. The same reason we roll 3D6 for stats for humans. No explanation is given for the 3D6....it's just the rule and thus accepted. In this case the rule is plainly written, yet ignored. And those that ignore it call for an explanation of why. Once again I can't tell anyone why a robot or vehicle stops magic, including teleportation. Only that the rules say that it's so, and accept it as such. I've never said it made any logical sense.....just that it's a cannon rule.

Dr. Doom III wrote:Except it doesn't and isn't.

Temporalmage wrote:Is teleport a spell?

Does the rule stipulate that no spell from the outside can get into a vehicle?

Then why would teleport be an exception?

Sorry Temporalmage, but your trying to place meaning where there is none.

The Galactus Kid wrote:I totally disagree with the "different environment" argument. Thats lke saying you can't teleport from a rain forrest to a desert because it is a different environment. I think that if what the character is trying to do would ve detrimental to the enjoyment of the game, then simply don't allow it. If it will not screw up the campaign, then just let them try it, even if they teleport inside the vehicle, they still have to deal with the crew, who could tackle and restrain them, preventing them from teleporting away. Laser pisotl to the face. Roll up a new character I'll see you next week. oh yeah, and next time, dont do anything stupid.

There that was easy. Problem solved

Writers Block wrote:I'm talking about some sort of game explaination...like mages can't wear armor cuase it blocks their "tuning in" with the world....some reason in Rifts that environ seals block magic. Is magic made up of metachlorian style gaseous particles? What....

Dr. Doom III wrote:

Temporalmage wrote:Is teleport a spell?

Yep. Two spells actually

.
Nice to know we can agree on somthing. Even if it was never in contention.

Does the rule stipulate that no spell from the outside can get into a vehicle?

No. It says you can't cast a spell from the outside to affect the occupants on the inside and vice versa.

Then why would teleport be an exception?

Because it doesn't affect anyone on the inside and the descriptions allow you to teleport stuff to anywhere known by the caster.

First off the "anywhere" still has to obey the full rules that apply too magic.
Secondly the book actually says that any spell cast from the outside can only affect the vehicle itself, and not the occupants. So your trying to worm your way around it by saying the inside of the vehicle is still the vehicle?? I expected better of you Doom. That's pretty lame. It's pretty obvious from the whole passage that a spell can't get into the vehicle.

Sorry Doom, but your trying to place meaning where there is none.

Fixed that for you.

Temporalmage wrote:First off the "anywhere" still has to obey the full rules that apply too magic.

Secondly the book actually says that any spell cast from the outside can only affect the vehicle itself, and not the occupants. So your trying to worm your way around it by saying the inside of the vehicle is still the vehicle?? I expected better of you Doom. That's pretty lame. It's pretty obvious from the whole passage that a spell can't get into the vehicle.

Dr. Doom III wrote:

Temporalmage wrote:First off the "anywhere" still has to obey the full rules that apply too magic.

It does.

Not if you allow anyone to teleport into a robot or vehicle.

Secondly the book actually says that any spell cast from the outside can only affect the vehicle itself, and not the occupants. So your trying to worm your way around it by saying the inside of the vehicle is still the vehicle?? I expected better of you Doom. That's pretty lame. It's pretty obvious from the whole passage that a spell can't get into the vehicle.

Teleport doesn't affect either one so no worries there.

Temporalmage wrote:WB, play your game your way. It's your game after all!

Tyciol wrote:

Zer0 Kay wrote:

Tyciol wrote:I call ball boy! If Kramer can do it so can I!

?

Ball boys are the guys who run across the middle of the court during tennis matches to pick up balls. It was in reference to your tennis match comment. Joke.

Doom, your so hung up on the spell discription of Teleport. You argue that because the spell says it can teleport the mage anyplace that this must be true. But a vehicle isn't a place. It's an object that is in a place. The only way to teleport into an object that is in a place is to merge with it and die instantly. So go ahead and teleport at will. Find me a referance that says you can teleport into an object and I just may buy it.

By the way once an object has become large enough, it can classify as a place. Such as space stations and man made moons. A behemoth explorer is quite large, but would never qualify as a place.

z0b Posted: Fri Aug 27, 2004 2:33 am Post subject:

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Just to add fuel to the fire, what about Mystic Portal? If cast on the side of an environmentally sealed fortification? It says that it can pass through any wall, and for that matter what about the "wall" of a Robot or APC?

Temporalmage wrote:Doom, your so hung up on the spell discription of Teleport. You argue that because the spell says it can teleport the mage anyplace that this must be true. But a vehicle isn't a place. It's an object that is in a place. The only way to teleport into an object that is in a place is to merge with it and die instantly. So go ahead and teleport at will. Find me a referance that says you can teleport into an object and I just may buy it.

By the way once an object has become large enough, it can classify as a place. Such as space stations and man made moons. A behemoth explorer is quite large, but would never qualify as a place.

The Galactus Kid wrote:...and then TemporalMage gets into his car and dies because he is suddenly INSIDE and oblect and not actually at a place or location. Alas TemporalMage. He will be missed. A moment of silence please, gentlemen.

Temporalmage wrote:Teleport does not obey that rule, and so could not work. It's that simple.

Temporalmage wrote:By the way once an object has become large enough, it can classify as a place. Such as space stations and man made moons. A behemoth explorer is quite large, but would never qualify as a place.

Temporalmage wrote:The point I was attempting to make is Dooms hang up on the wording of the spell teleport: superior.

Basilisk wrote:To add more evidence (hopefully fresh) to the argument for teleportation being able to penetrate an environmental seal I submit the following example:

The eighth level invocation spell Locate does not specifically mention that it penetrates an environmental seal. Therefore, a hardliner of the 'environmental seal=100% barrier' camp would thus conclude that by simply squatting inside of a sealed vehicle, 'bot, or building one would be completely unlocatable with this spell. The Locate spell, however, lists a series of examples for the 'general location' that an object can be pinpointed to:

'the location is limited to a specific apartment building, aircraft, house, shopping mall, church . . .'

Aircraft, of course, have to be environmentally sealed. Otherwise the passengers and pilot would suffer the joys of a sudden lack of atmospheric pressure shortly after they left the ground.

It's circumstantial evidence to be sure, but it seems to me that both teleportation spells and the Locate spell, by their very nature, follow similar restrictions. The caster of both spells is well away from either the destination of the teleport or the object being sought. Neither spell is affected by physical barriers between the caster and the location/object, only by distance and/or familiarity.

It's up to the individual GM whether to allow teleportation into a sealed vehicle, of course. The logic implied both by the words 'any location' in the teleportation spells' descriptions and the off-hand mention of an environmentally sealed vehicle as a 'location' in the Locate spell description indicates to me that an environmental seal is no barrier to teleportation as well as the Locate spell.

Any chance this word-parsing will increase my chances of finding a mate within the herd?