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svartalf wrote:

Temporalmage wrote:By the way once an object has become large enough, it can classify as a place. Such as space stations and man made moons. A behemoth explorer is quite large, but would never qualify as a place.

Is that why you can't teleport out of a bot or vehicle? because you need to be someplace to start from and that inside a vehicle is no place?

Temporalmage wrote:The point I was attempting to make is Dooms hang up on the wording of the spell teleport: superior.

Because you're not hanging on the wording of the armored shell rule?
Not only are you doing that but, like some others, you're giving that rule a blanket effect it was never intended to have, and apply it ad absurdum even in cases where it's use does not make sense, is contradicted by the assumptions in the text, and gets just boiled down to "it's so because it says so here", rather than "it's so because not only doest it say it does, but it's logical".

I'm not hanging onto any wording at the exclusion of all else. Also the wording that I am "Hung up on", is the rules that apply to ALL magic. Thus why it states in the very first sentance, "Magic can not penetrate a robot or vehicle." Magic, not some magic....just magic. As in all of it.
If there is a question, just look at the spell, THEN look at the rules that apply to magic in general. If whatever your attempting to do is allowable by the wording of the spell, and the wording of the general rules, then it's OK. If it isn't allowable by either one of these things then it can not be done. Thats why it's a rule that apply's to all magic. Seems pretty logical to me.
According to the wording of the Teleport spells, teleporting into a vehicle would work. But according to the general rules of all magic, it won't. That's why such an attempt would not work.

Temporalmage wrote: the wording that I am "Hung up on", is the rules that apply to ALL magic. Thus why it states in the very first sentance, "Magic can not penetrate a robot or vehicle." Magic, not some magic....just magic. As in all of it.
If there is a question, just look at the spell, THEN look at the rules that apply to magic in general. If whatever your attempting to do is allowable by the wording of the spell, and the wording of the general rules, then it's OK. If it isn't allowable by either one of these things then it can not be done. Thats why it's a rule that apply's to all magic. Seems pretty logical to me.
According to the wording of the Teleport spells, teleporting into a vehicle would work. But according to the general rules of all magic, it won't. That's why such an attempt would not work.

Now look at Life Drain.
According to the spell, "characters inside power armor, environmental body armor, manned robots, or military vehicles are affected by this spell".

So, the spell description says it can work on people in environmentally sealed vehicles.
But by the wording of the general rules, it won't work because "magic cannot penetrate a robot or vehicle".

According to your logic, Life Drain shouldn't work on people in vehicles any more than Teleport should.
But Life Drain clearly DOES.

How'd that figure with your line of reasoning?

Temporalmage wrote:The point I was attempting to make is Dooms hang up on the wording of the spell teleport: superior. The spell discription uses words like, destination, location, place. These can be interpreted as the inside of a vehicle. But they can also be interpreted as locations in the world. Such as a specific non-moving building, town, city, etc. Not a vehicle who's location changes periodically. If a mage wished to teleport into his behemoth explorer, and someone had robot-snatched it and took it 20 miles away....would the mage arrive at that location? According to your interpretation?

Interesting line of thought, but here's where it leads you:

Say you've been to Atlantis and you want to go back... and you're a powerful mage.
You whip up your trusty Teleport: Superior spell and off you go...

... appearing in the void of outer space.

Atlantis, and the entire Earth, has moved since last time you visited.
Hope you brought your EBA.
Can you teleport back now?
How much has the Earth moved in it's orbit since I started this discussion?

Doesn't matter.
Common sense says that the people at Palladium intended the spell to be useful so it compensates for little things like the place you are aiming at not being exactly where you left it.
You can sit back and visualize a place (like your apartment) and teleport there, regardless of continental drift, the Earth's orbit, or the movement of the Solar System itself.
You can therefore also sit back and visualize your Trailer and teleport into it, regardless of if somebody moved it to another trailer park while you were away.
Which means that you can also visualize your car and teleport into it.

Oh, and while a vehicle may be an object, the interior of the vehicle is a place.

Temporalmage wrote: the wording that I am "Hung up on", is the rules that apply to ALL magic. Thus why it states in the very first sentance, "Magic can not penetrate a robot or vehicle." Magic, not some magic....just magic. As in all of it.
If there is a question, just look at the spell, THEN look at the rules that apply to magic in general. If whatever your attempting to do is allowable by the wording of the spell, and the wording of the general rules, then it's OK. If it isn't allowable by either one of these things then it can not be done. Thats why it's a rule that apply's to all magic. Seems pretty logical to me.
According to the wording of the Teleport spells, teleporting into a vehicle would work. But according to the general rules of all magic, it won't. That's why such an attempt would not work.

Now look at Life Drain.
According to the spell, "characters inside power armor, environmental body armor, manned robots, or military vehicles are affected by this spell".

So, the spell description says it can work on people in environmentally sealed vehicles.
But by the wording of the general rules, it won't work because "magic cannot penetrate a robot or vehicle".

According to your logic, Life Drain shouldn't work on people in vehicles any more than Teleport should.
But Life Drain clearly DOES.

How'd that figure with your line of reasoning?

Killer Cyborg wrote:Now look at Life Drain.
According to the spell, "characters inside power armor, environmental body armor, manned robots, or military vehicles are affected by this spell".

So, the spell description says it can work on people in environmentally sealed vehicles.
But by the wording of the general rules, it won't work because "magic cannot penetrate a robot or vehicle".

According to your logic, Life Drain shouldn't work on people in vehicles any more than Teleport should.
But Life Drain clearly DOES.

How'd that figure with your line of reasoning?

That's a definite exception to the rule, and the fact it's enhanced ability to affect people that normally spells can't aim at shows it.

It still goes to prove that an armored shell isn't the ultimate magic proof protection wall. Even though it's rather irrelevant to the case being discussed.

It seems Doom left this thread in good hands.

Basilisk wrote:Aircraft, of course, have to be environmentally sealed. Otherwise the passengers and pilot would suffer the joys of a sudden lack of atmospheric pressure shortly after they left the ground.

You might want to check with the wright brothers on that one. Or any WWII pilot.

Basilisk wrote:I'm sorry, but that is F*CKING silly. I've taken a look at the quote you're talking about, and there's more stretching going on here than a baby doll shirt on Rosanne Arnold. Of course a Psi-Stalker wouldn't be able to track someone in an environmentally sealed vehicle--the power relies on SCENT! A dog couldn't smell the contents of a hermetically sealed container, either.

Your suffering from a common misconception. A psi-stalkers ability to sense supernatural and magic isn't based on the psi-stalkers nose. It's a psycic power. Thats why a stalker that gets too many cybernetics lose those powers. Same thing with dog-boys. Check out Lone star for more info.

I'll grant that the Locate spell is most likely Cut-and-Pasted from elsewhere, but so are half of the other Invocation spells. Maybe KS and Co. kept the origninal wording because it makes sense? Keep in mind that where I got the spell was the Book of Magic, so presumably if editing needed to get done, they'd have done it.

I wish they had. But unfortunatly they only went through some of the spells in that book, if any.

I stand by my original stance on the 'environmental seal' clause--it was intended so that mage players couldn't simply bypass a Glitter-boy's armor and instantly kill the pilot with a 6 PPE spell--chiefly justified by line of sight (if you can't see the pilot, you can't affect him/her). Teleport: Lesser and Superior, Locate, and several other spells (Death Curse comes to mind) were not intended to be restricted in that way, even if the spell descriptions don't specifically state it.

This is all conjecture and opinion. You are obviously stating your opinion, not book facts. I am only arguing what is written in the books, and upholding cannon rules.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Temporalmage wrote: the wording that I am "Hung up on", is the rules that apply to ALL magic. Thus why it states in the very first sentance, "Magic can not penetrate a robot or vehicle." Magic, not some magic....just magic. As in all of it.
If there is a question, just look at the spell, THEN look at the rules that apply to magic in general. If whatever your attempting to do is allowable by the wording of the spell, and the wording of the general rules, then it's OK. If it isn't allowable by either one of these things then it can not be done. Thats why it's a rule that apply's to all magic. Seems pretty logical to me.
According to the wording of the Teleport spells, teleporting into a vehicle would work. But according to the general rules of all magic, it won't. That's why such an attempt would not work.

Now look at Life Drain.
According to the spell, "characters inside power armor, environmental body armor, manned robots, or military vehicles are affected by this spell".

So, the spell description says it can work on people in environmentally sealed vehicles.
But by the wording of the general rules, it won't work because "magic cannot penetrate a robot or vehicle".

According to your logic, Life Drain shouldn't work on people in vehicles any more than Teleport should.
But Life Drain clearly DOES.

How'd that figure with your line of reasoning?

OK Killer, no need to repeat yourself, I hear ya!!

It figures into my reasoning quite nicely thank you. Allow me to quote myself: "If it isn't allowable by either one of these things then it can not be done." Now I've highlighted the main word in my sentence structure. The word is "Either". As in one or the other. Get it now?

Dr. Doom III wrote:It seems Doom left this thread in good hands.

Yep, MINE!

Temporalmage wrote:Yep, MINE!

In your dreams.

Dr. Doom III wrote:

Temporalmage wrote:Yep, MINE!

In your dreams.

Nah, my dreams are much more violent than that.

Temporalmage wrote: Allow me to quote myself: "If it isn't allowable by either one of these things then it can not be done." Now I've highlighted the main word in my sentence structure. The word is "Either". As in one or the other. Get it now?

Actually, that sentence could be taken a couple of different ways.

Take 1:
"If either one of these things don't allow it, then it can't be done."

If this is what you mean, then...

Since the rules of magic say that magic cannot penetrate environmentally sealed vehicles, you seem to be claiming that Life Drain actually doesn't work on people in vehicles.



Take 2:
"If both of these things agree that it can't be done, then it can't be done."

If this is what you mean, then you seem to be saying that teleportation into a vehicle is allowable, since the spell description allows it even though it seems to contradict the rule that magic cannot penetrate vehicles.

Tyciol wrote:

Basilisk wrote:

Tyciol wrote:Excellent point to include Basilisk, but let not thy firey dragon's tongue scathe and flame.

Yeah, I was probably a little harsh there. Sorry, TM, if I've offended you.

PS Hey, Ty. Does sharing an icon make us skull-brothers?

Yes, but I would prefer the term 'Bone Brothers'.

If you guys are shareing a bone I don't want to know about it.

Killer Cyborg wrote:
Interesting line of thought, but here's where it leads you:

Say you've been to Atlantis and you want to go back... and you're a powerful mage.
You whip up your trusty Teleport: Superior spell and off you go...

... appearing in the void of outer space.

Atlantis, and the entire Earth, has moved since last time you visited.
Hope you brought your EBA.
Can you teleport back now?
How much has the Earth moved in it's orbit since I started this discussion?

Doesn't matter.
Common sense says that the people at Palladium intended the spell to be useful so it compensates for little things like the place you are aiming at not being exactly where you left it.
You can sit back and visualize a place (like your apartment) and teleport there, regardless of continental drift, the Earth's orbit, or the movement of the Solar System itself.
You can therefore also sit back and visualize your Trailer and teleport into it, regardless of if somebody moved it to another trailer park while you were away.
Which means that you can also visualize your car and teleport into it.

Oh, and while a vehicle may be an object, the interior of the vehicle is a place.

So again I ask how do you teleport into one specific Spider Skull Walker or any standardized military vehicle?

What happens if the location you are teleporting into has an object in it, like someone has moved a chair, statue or safe to the location you are visualizing?

What happens if the location you are teleporting to no longer exists? "Oh you didn't hear? Your house was totaled by a Dragon last week."

What happens if the location you are visualizing has been totally changed. "Sorry hun. I thought that redecorating your study would be nice." --TLC Rifts While You Were Out

"Ah, I like how the Monster Spider Skull Walker has a purple interior and 6 bucket seats with a built in mini-bar, plasma screen TV with DVD player inside. Concealable barbeque, retractible mosquito net and picknick table built into the undercarage and legs." --Discovery Channel Rifts Monster Garage.

Zer0 Kay wrote:So again I ask how do you teleport into one specific Spider Skull Walker or any standardized military vehicle?

What happens if the location you are teleporting into has an object in it, like someone has moved a chair, statue or safe to the location you are visualizing?

What happens if the location you are teleporting to no longer exists? "Oh you didn't hear? Your house was totaled by a Dragon last week."

What happens if the location you are visualizing has been totally changed. "Sorry hun. I thought that redecorating your study would be nice." --TLC Rifts While You Were Out

"Ah, I like how the Monster Spider Skull Walker has a purple interior and 6 bucket seats with a built in mini-bar, plasma screen TV with DVD player inside. Concealable barbeque, retractible mosquito net and picknick table built into the undercarage and legs." --Discovery Channel Rifts Monster Garage.

That's why Teleport: Superior gives percentages.
If things have change the percentage drops.
If you succeed but their still is a chair where you plan to go you just end up beside it or on top of it. You only get stuck in stuff on a real bad failure.
For Teleport: Lesser then the GM rules the item gets sent somewhere else.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Temporalmage wrote: Allow me to quote myself: "If it isn't allowable by either one of these things then it can not be done." Now I've highlighted the main word in my sentence structure. The word is "Either". As in one or the other. Get it now?

Actually, that sentence could be taken a couple of different ways.

Take 1:
"If either one of these things don't allow it, then it can't be done."

If this is what you mean, then...

Since the rules of magic say that magic cannot penetrate environmentally sealed vehicles, you seem to be claiming that Life Drain actually doesn't work on people in vehicles.



Take 2:
"If both of these things agree that it can't be done, then it can't be done."

If this is what you mean, then you seem to be saying that teleportation into a vehicle is allowable, since the spell description allows it even though it seems to contradict the rule that magic cannot penetrate vehicles.

"sigh" What I ment was that if whatever your attempting to do with a spell, (in this case teleport into a vehicle) is acceptable by the spell AND the rules of magic, then it can be done. BUT if the spell OR the rules say that the spell wouldn't work the way the player wishes then the spell would fail. (Which is why you can't teleport into a vehicle. The spell is ok with it, but it breaks the rules of magic.) So if one or the other of these things say's the spell wouldn't work, it wont' work.

Basilisk wrote:One could argue that if a psychic power acts like scent tracking--as the psi-stalker ability does--that it works through the medium of scent not, say, touch or hearing. I tend to argue that way.

I beleive it works off a differant sense than touch, hearing, sight, taste, OR smell. It works off the other sense....psycic sense. Hence why cybernetics screw it up, and other psycic powers can screw it up too.

also think that you're making a LOT of assumptions and lending a LOT of weight to a single sentence in a Q & A answer of an outdated book that doesn't even tackle the topic directly--it's talking about psi-stalkers, not mages in general or teleportation or scrying in particular. You're stretching a very specific, barely related instance to its breaking point.

I've been quoting from the sourcebook, which is very specific to the discusion you and I have been having about psy-stalkers abilites of sense. The other outdated book I've been quoting is the Book Of Magic. It specifically states that magic can not penetrate the skin of giant robots and vehicles. Its on page 21. I'd say that's very very relevent, and related to this specific discussion, wouldn't you?

As for editing problems--you're right, PB tends to be lazy (very lazy) in that regard. HOWEVER, nobody to my knowledge has ever complained about the Locate spell being particularly overpowered the way it is clearly worded to be used--you get a general idea of where your quarry is, no mundane barriers (and that includes environmental seals) between it and you.

Your right, locate is not powerfull, and truth be told I've often allowed it to work if for no other reason than it's not exact. It only tells the mage the "approximate" location. But on this topic I've been only arguing book rules, and keeping my own opinion out of it. And acording to the rules that I've already quoted many times, locate wouldn't work to find somone inside a robot either.

Fer crying out load, your interpretation would mean that, using the Locate spell, I couldn't locate an unopened can of soda--because a can of soda is 'environmentally sealed' until it is opened (that's why it doesn't go flat, right?). I'm stretching your words here--to the breaking point, even, to make the point that it's more than a little ridiculous that what can be accomplished with a millimeter-thick layer of aluminum should be able to block a spell that's clearly designed to be a sort of 'universal locator.'

Everyone seems intent on ascribing the environmental seal as the reason magic doesn't work through a vehicle. This is not what the books say. In fact I've never read any specific reason that magic won't work through robots or vehicles in any book. Many peaple just assume the environmental seal is the reason as it makes sense to them due to the seals purpose of keeping things out. They just assume that it keeps out magic too. In truth it could be the materials that is used in seat cusions. Or the molecular bonding of the MDC materials, such as Glitter boys. Who knows? In truth you would be able to locate the can of soda though....just not the soda itself.

Zer0 Kay wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:
Interesting line of thought, but here's where it leads you:

Say you've been to Atlantis and you want to go back... and you're a powerful mage.
You whip up your trusty Teleport: Superior spell and off you go...

... appearing in the void of outer space.

Atlantis, and the entire Earth, has moved since last time you visited.
Hope you brought your EBA.
Can you teleport back now?
How much has the Earth moved in it's orbit since I started this discussion?

Doesn't matter.
Common sense says that the people at Palladium intended the spell to be useful so it compensates for little things like the place you are aiming at not being exactly where you left it.
You can sit back and visualize a place (like your apartment) and teleport there, regardless of continental drift, the Earth's orbit, or the movement of the Solar System itself.
You can therefore also sit back and visualize your Trailer and teleport into it, regardless of if somebody moved it to another trailer park while you were away.
Which means that you can also visualize your car and teleport into it.

Oh, and while a vehicle may be an object, the interior of the vehicle is a place.

So again I ask how do you teleport into one specific Spider Skull Walker or any standardized military vehicle?

What happens if the location you are teleporting into has an object in it, like someone has moved a chair, statue or safe to the location you are visualizing?

What happens if the location you are teleporting to no longer exists? "Oh you didn't hear? Your house was totaled by a Dragon last week."

What happens if the location you are visualizing has been totally changed. "Sorry hun. I thought that redecorating your study would be nice." --TLC Rifts While You Were Out

"Ah, I like how the Monster Spider Skull Walker has a purple interior and 6 bucket seats with a built in mini-bar, plasma screen TV with DVD player inside. Concealable barbeque, retractible mosquito net and picknick table built into the undercarage and legs." --Discovery Channel Rifts Monster Garage.

As Doom pointed out, this is why the spell has percentages listed.
Also, this complaint has nothing to do with vehicles specifically. As you say, it applies equally to apartments or any other location.
So it doesn't have much bearing on this particular argument.

Temporalmage wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Temporalmage wrote: Allow me to quote myself: "If it isn't allowable by either one of these things then it can not be done." Now I've highlighted the main word in my sentence structure. The word is "Either". As in one or the other. Get it now?

Actually, that sentence could be taken a couple of different ways.

Take 1:
"If either one of these things don't allow it, then it can't be done."

If this is what you mean, then...

Since the rules of magic say that magic cannot penetrate environmentally sealed vehicles, you seem to be claiming that Life Drain actually doesn't work on people in vehicles.



Take 2:
"If both of these things agree that it can't be done, then it can't be done."

If this is what you mean, then you seem to be saying that teleportation into a vehicle is allowable, since the spell description allows it even though it seems to contradict the rule that magic cannot penetrate vehicles.

"sigh" What I ment was that if whatever your attempting to do with a spell, (in this case teleport into a vehicle) is acceptable by the spell AND the rules of magic, then it can be done. BUT if the spell OR the rules say that the spell wouldn't work the way the player wishes then the spell would fail. (Which is why you can't teleport into a vehicle. The spell is ok with it, but it breaks the rules of magic.) So if one or the other of these things say's the spell wouldn't work, it wont' work.

Right.
That was Take 1.
Which means you don't believe that Life Drain can work on people in vehicles because, while it is acceptable by the spell, it breaks the rules of magic...

Temporalmage wrote:It specifically states that magic can not penetrate the skin of giant robots and vehicles

No it says that you cannot penetrate to target anything inside with a spell.

Daytrippr wrote:not sure if this has been mentioned or not........

radiation shielding. Creatures of Magic take damage from radiation ( triax and the ngr)

Power Armors, etc have radiation shielding. Can't break the shielding, can't tport out of or into.

But thats me

Don't think that has been mentioned yet, and that would actually be a decent explanation for things (the best one I've seen presented, in fact).

However, it's still not canon, and so doesn't definitively answer the question.

PigLick

Daytrippr wrote:not sure if this has been mentioned or not........

radiation shielding. Creatures of Magic take damage from radiation ( triax and the ngr)

Power Armors, etc have radiation shielding. Can't break the shielding, can't tport out of or into.

But thats me

So does body armor and power armor. Both of which are no barrier to magic.

Which brings us back to the outdated SB1 blurb. Power armor stops the psychic sent for Dog pack and Psi-stalkers. However Power armor is not a problem for spell casting. You get the same penalties as more then 50% metal body armor.
Kind of destroys that line of thinking.

That brings us back to why it wouldn't work on people/things in Bots and vehicles. Line of sight is the only logical answer. teleport of course is not a line of sight spell.

Killer Cyborg wrote:Right.
That was Take 1.
Which means you don't believe that Life Drain can work on people in vehicles because, while it is acceptable by the spell, it breaks the rules of magic...

I havnt' looked up that specific spell, so I'll just ask you. Does the spell Life Drain specifically state in the spell discription that it is usable on peaple inside robots or vehicles? If the spell says that it can do this then it's an exception to the rules. As with all rules there are the occasional exception.

Dr. Doom III wrote:

Temporalmage wrote:It specifically states that magic can not penetrate the skin of giant robots and vehicles

No it says that you cannot penetrate to target anything inside with a spell.

No, it says: "Magic can not penetrate the skin of giant robots, or vehicles."
Page 21 of the Book of Magic. I quoted it to the letter.

Temporalmage wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:Right.
That was Take 1.
Which means you don't believe that Life Drain can work on people in vehicles because, while it is acceptable by the spell, it breaks the rules of magic...

I havnt' looked up that specific spell, so I'll just ask you. Does the spell Life Drain specifically state in the spell discription that it is usable on peaple inside robots or vehicles? If the spell says that it can do this then it's an exception to the rules. As with all rules there are the occasional exception.

Exceptions like Life Drain and Teleport...

Killer Cyborg wrote:Exceptions like Life Drain and Teleport...

OH? Please tell us all exactly what page number and what book your looking at when you came to that conclusion? Where oh where does it state, in any book, that teleport bypasses the rule as stated in the BOM??? Ya can't! Unless ya wrote it in yourself with crayon!! Know why?? Same reason Doom can't. It ain't in the book. Ya'all are seeing things that just ain't there. No version of any teleport spell in any Rifts book states that it works to gain access to robots or vehicles. Sorry, try again.

Temporalmage wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:Exceptions like Life Drain and Teleport...

OH? Please tell us all exactly what page number and what book your looking at when you came to that conclusion? Where oh where does it state, in any book, that teleport bypasses the rule as stated in the BOM??? Ya can't! Unless ya wrote it in yourself with crayon!! Know why?? Same reason Doom can't. It ain't in the book. Ya'all are seeing things that just ain't there. No version of any teleport spell in any Rifts book states that it works to gain access to robots or vehicles. Sorry, try again.

The fact that Life Drain affects people inside vehicles shows that there are exceptions to the rule of "magic can't target people inside a vehicle".

The very nature of the spell Teleport is to magically bypass obstacles and to move a person or item from one location to another.
Logically, this spell is another exception to the rule.

The Teleport spell lists penalties for a number of conditions. It mentions the difficulty of teleporting into an unknown location, the difficulty of teleporting to a location only seen in pictures, etc.
It never mentions any difficulty teleporting into vehicles.
Seeing as how it is a 15th level spell and it can transport matter hundreds of miles per level of the caster, over and through ANY terrrain, I see no reason whatsoever that it should have any difficulty transporting into a vehicle.
If it was any problem for the spell, the spell would mention it.
It doesn't.

Killer Cyborg wrote: Seeing as how it is a 15th level spell and it can transport matter hundreds of miles per level of the caster, over and through ANY terrrain, I see no reason whatsoever that it should have any difficulty transporting into a vehicle.
If it was any problem for the spell, the spell would mention it.
It doesn't.

Uh TM is going to use that against you. Should have said without consideration for intervening terrain.

Temporalmage wrote:No, it says: "Magic can not penetrate the skin of giant robots, or vehicles."
Page 21 of the Book of Magic. I quoted it to the letter.

I could see how someone would think that was the meaning of the passage if they stopped reading after that sentence. Fortunately Doom reads the whole thing before deciding what it is actually saying.

Dr. Doom III wrote:

Temporalmage wrote:No, it says: "Magic can not penetrate the skin of giant robots, or vehicles."
Page 21 of the Book of Magic. I quoted it to the letter.

I could see how someone would think that was the meaning of the passage if they stopped reading after that sentence. Fortunately Doom reads the whole thing before deciding what it is actually saying.

So now Doom is claiming to be a bit psycic himself. Using telepathy on ole KS himself to determine what was ment by a passage that's written in plain english.
I've read the whole thing. Even quoted it and went over the entire thing a few times on this very topic. At no time does that rule, or any discription of Teleport state, or even hint, that teleport can bypass this rule.

Killer Cyborg wrote:The fact that Life Drain affects people inside vehicles shows that there are exceptions to the rule of "magic can't target people inside a vehicle".

Yes. I've always stated that there are exceptions to this rule. Congrats, you've found one.

The very nature of the spell Teleport is to magically bypass obstacles and to move a person or item from one location to another.
Logically, this spell is another exception to the rule.

Your using logic with Rifts? Sorry, had to wipe the tears from my eyes before continuing to type!!
If something is written in black and white, then its an accepted exception to the rule. Otherwise it is not. This same "logic" that you brought up could just as easily be used for any number of spells and powers that were never intended to be used to bypass robot or vehicle armor. But if someone thinks a spell could be used that way, they could use your example as a guide to allow it. This would be breaking a cannon rule. And once you open that door, its very hard to close.

The Teleport spell lists penalties for a number of conditions. It mentions the difficulty of teleporting into an unknown location, the difficulty of teleporting to a location only seen in pictures, etc.
It never mentions any difficulty teleporting into vehicles.
Seeing as how it is a 15th level spell and it can transport matter hundreds of miles per level of the caster, over and through ANY terrrain, I see no reason whatsoever that it should have any difficulty transporting into a vehicle.
If it was any problem for the spell, the spell would mention it.
It doesn't.

Why should it??? Why should the spell teleport discuss robots or vehicles in any way?? That rule is covered in a seperate place in the books. The only need is to mention if a spell is an exception to the rule. With out a written exception in the spell discription then by default all spells must abide by that rule. Teleport has never stated that it can work through robots or vehicles!! Why should it start now?? Just because some of you have been doing it that way for years, and can't wrap your minds around the fact that the rules don't allow it?? So your using a house rule! So what?? By the book, like it or not, teleport could never work to deposit ANYTHING into a robot or vehicle. So unless someone has some evidence that thirty pages havn't already dredged up, give it up and admit that you have no case. Your using a house rule. Congrats. Don't we all??

This reminds me of the -10 rule. Changed the face of combat for rifts, at least for cannon rules of combat. But how many of us truly use that rule? Probably less than 10. So a new rule in the BOM tells us that teleport won't work to gain access to a robot or vehicle. Is this going to affect anyones game??

By the way, you should have said "without consideration for intervening terrain".
(Thanks Zero )

Temporalmage wrote:
Your using logic with Rifts? Sorry, had to wipe the tears from my eyes before continuing to type!!

Yes.
It does seem to be our main difference.

So TM if your in a game and the GM says you can are you going to argue against it because the books say otherwise? Even though the books also say that the GM has final say and that all the rules, stories etc. are guidelines to be manipulated by the GM as s/he sees fit?

ooooooooh!!! Touche. Dag yo. He just called you out.

Generally speaking in order for any spell to take effect on a specific target u need to be able to see it, or have a memory of the place in question.

Now there is exceptions to certian rules that allow some variance to that, such as remote viewing and other such circumstances. I personally have let a few folks cast spells on there allies through armor but that was mainly to speed up the scenario that we where dealing with.

On the Teleport question though, I thought it would be possible as long as you have a visual picture of the area you should be able to Teleport just about anywhere, if there is no other prevention say Magical sealed or Psionicaly sealed area's. There was a circumstance in a some cartoon I saw, where the character teleported water in a Power armor and it seems its not totally out of the spectrum of the power. Its one of those powers that leaves questions for anyone that can think of a way to use it in a way it wasn't intended to be used. It the same thing as create force field, in the fantastic four comic when she was turned evil by mind control she put a small force field in the espoghogas of her husband almost killing him and I know for a fact that isn't allowed by the rules, but then again its not totally impossible when considering its a fantasy type situation. In a fantasy type game the possibilities are only bound by the imagination of the GM and players, its up to the GM to set the limits.

Rule speaking on magic is pretty cut and dry, and usually its pretty realistic but as with any rule there can be change's made to fit the game in question, so basically it boils down to what the GM would allow. I personally wouldn't allow any spell to go through Power suits. On the other hand psionics would be different if the person had visual site some how, like maybe through a see through shield in the pilot compartment, remote viewing, or maybe even x-ray vision.

I am behind on reading all these post, so If I am out of place sorry trying to catch up on some of the discusions.

Tyciol wrote:What the GM would allow is immaterial to this discussion, those of you who only post about that and house rules should delete your posts from this discussion, it only causes clutter.

Here here!

Temporal Mage, I think what is being argued is that the statement saying magic cannot penetrate the skin of vehicles must be wrong, because certain magic can. It doesn't say 'except in cases of spells like life drain where it is mentioned otherwise', it is a broad statement. Since it is false by proof of other spells, another explanation for the wording must be found, which Doom has provided.

Yes it is a broad statement. And any exception to this broad statement is addressed in specific spell discriptions that state they are indeed an exception, that they can effect those in robots or vehicles. A broad statement is simply easier to establish than listing every single spell by name and stating weither or not it can penetrate a robot or vehicle. And the how's and why's of each spell. How long would this list have to be??? After all the number of spells that are exceptions are very few indeed. What, mabey a half a dozen at most. Compared to the hundreds of spells that can't work through robots it's obviously a very minor percentage. And a minor percentage of exceptions DO NOT make a statement false. Doom's explanation does not pan out while reading the quote from the BOM. It only pans out when listening to Doom explain why teleportation would work to gain access to a robot or vehicle. Compare his explanation to the afformentioned rule and it's very obvious that Doom is only attempting to warp the rule to make Teleportation spells exceptions. But the bottom line remains the same. Teleportation, in any form, does not state that they are exceptions, and so by cannon rules could not be used to teleport into, or from, robots or vehicle.

I'm still curious as to how teleportation 'penetrates' anything, too.

American Heritage Collage Dictionary: Penetrate: To enter or force a way into; peirce.
Just another way of saying that no magic can be used to gain entry into a robot or vehicle.

Zer0 Kay wrote:So TM if your in a game and the GM says you can are you going to argue against it because the books say otherwise? Even though the books also say that the GM has final say and that all the rules, stories etc. are guidelines to be manipulated by the GM as s/he sees fit?

Nope, if a GM allowed me to do it, I'd be teleporting in a heart beat!! As I've said a few times on this topic, I personally don't use this rule as it applies to the spells of teleportation. But on this specific topic the question was asked if teleporting into a robot or vehicle was possible by the rules. So I'm of course standing by the rules only on this topic. Always have. And the rules don't allow it. Never said that some GM's don't, or that I personally don't. If ya ask me a rules question I answer by the rules. Ask me how I run a game and I'll tell ya somthing differant. (Possibly)

Temporalmage wrote:Nope, if a GM allowed me to do it, I'd be teleporting in a heart beat!! As I've said a few times on this topic, I personally don't use this rule as it applies to the spells of teleportation. But on this specific topic the question was asked if teleporting into a robot or vehicle was possible by the rules. So I'm of course standing by the rules only on this topic. Always have. And the rules don't allow it. Never said that some GM's don't, or that I personally don't. If ya ask me a rules question I answer by the rules. Ask me how I run a game and I'll tell ya somthing differant. (Possibly)

Except that in this case, the rules are not so definitive as you imply they are. Your oft quoted text about magic not bypassing armored vehicles only says that spells cannot be targeted across those barriers. The description of the teleport spells does not specifically say whether the destination of the teleport counts as a "target" of the spell, or if only the person/object teleported is the target. If the former is true, you have a much stronger argument. If, however, the latter is true, then your argument holds no water. As I said though, there is no definitive answer one way or another. We can argue implication, assumption, intention, logic, reason, etc etc all day, but there is no clear, implicit answer to that question.

PigLick

PigLickJF wrote:

Temporalmage wrote:Nope, if a GM allowed me to do it, I'd be teleporting in a heart beat!! As I've said a few times on this topic, I personally don't use this rule as it applies to the spells of teleportation. But on this specific topic the question was asked if teleporting into a robot or vehicle was possible by the rules. So I'm of course standing by the rules only on this topic. Always have. And the rules don't allow it. Never said that some GM's don't, or that I personally don't. If ya ask me a rules question I answer by the rules. Ask me how I run a game and I'll tell ya somthing differant. (Possibly)

Except that in this case, the rules are not so definitive as you imply they are. Your oft quoted text about magic not bypassing armored vehicles only says that spells cannot be targeted across those barriers. The description of the teleport spells does not specifically say whether the destination of the teleport counts as a "target" of the spell, or if only the person/object teleported is the target. If the former is true, you have a much stronger argument. If, however, the latter is true, then your argument holds no water. As I said though, there is no definitive answer one way or another. We can argue implication, assumption, intention, logic, reason, etc etc all day, but there is no clear, implicit answer to that question.

PigLick

Actually the discription of the spell Teleport: Superior says "target Destination". This indicates that the mage is targeting the interior of the vehicle in this case, which is opposing the previously stated rule.

I know I've read in the FAQ that you could not teleport a fusion block into a vehicle. As Basilisk has said, its probably to keep peaple from doing instant kills. This makes sense. So continuing with this logic if one couldn't teleport a fusion block into a robot, how could they teleport themselves? Or are the rules so skewed as to allow the teleporting of a mage who plans on slitting the throat of the pilot and crew, or the teleporting of fuzzy bunny's.....but not a fuision block as that's gonna cause instant death?? Ya can't have it both ways folks.
By the way Basilisk, I've been using both of the books to make my point on this topic. Sourcebook one tells us that a supernatural powers are totally blocked by robot's and vehicles skin. The BOM tells us that you can not target the interior of a vehicle or robot with magic. That would be the entire interior, not just the human pilot. It states that you can't target any occupant right? What about a Machine Man from Phase world? That would be an occupant, so you couldn't target him with spells. But he's no more than an intellegent toaster. So I geuss you can't target a toaster either. And if you can't target a toaster, which is nothing more than wires metal and plastic, then by default you can't target the entire inside of a robot cause the inside is wire metal and plastic. The inside is the "Occupants". Perhaps a far streatch but you can understand where I'm coming from. Where would you draw the line?
If any spell cast inside of a robot or vehicle can only affect the occupants and the inside of a vehicle....obviously not getting out in any way. Then how would that same magic spell be able to get in?

Temporalmage wrote:Actually the discription of the spell Teleport: Superior says "target Destination". This indicates that the mage is targeting the interior of the vehicle in this case, which is opposing the previously stated rule.

1. Hmmph. My BoM says "target tions", whatever that happy crap is.
2. Sure, but that's still not targeting the robot itself or the people inside the robot.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Temporalmage wrote:Actually the discription of the spell Teleport: Superior says "target Destination". This indicates that the mage is targeting the interior of the vehicle in this case, which is opposing the previously stated rule.

1. Hmmph. My BoM says "target tions", whatever that happy crap is.

Mine too. Ya gotta look in the Main Book for the full text.

2. Sure, but that's still not targeting the robot itself or the people inside the robot.

If you can't target the vehicle itself....then how can you target the inside of a vehicle??? Seems like that would be the largest part of the vehicle wouldn't it???

Temporalmage wrote: If you can't target the vehicle itself....then how can you target the inside of a vehicle??? Seems like that would be the largest part of the vehicle wouldn't it???

No, the inside of a vehicle isn't part of the vehicle at all. It's just empty space.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Temporalmage wrote: If you can't target the vehicle itself....then how can you target the inside of a vehicle??? Seems like that would be the largest part of the vehicle wouldn't it???

No, the inside of a vehicle isn't part of the vehicle at all. It's just empty space.

It's part of the vehicle. Otherwise why did you yourself just admit that it was?? As in "inside of the vehicle". If it wasnt' part of the vehicle then why use the verb vehicle when describing it? See what I mean?? It's the same as trying to say that your living room isn't part of your house just because it's empty space. Just because that part is full of air does not make it any less a part of the vehicle itself.

Tyciol wrote:This is as ridiculous as saying the air in my lungs is part of me, it is not.

Then let it all out. After all if it isn't part of you, ya don't need it!

Joking aside, I can understand your argument. Do you understand mine? I study blueprints all day long. And the empty space inside of buildings is clearly marked. Also if you purchase a condominium in a building that is still under construction, you just purchased....air. Because the walls havn't been built around it yet. But once those walls, ceilings and floor is built and compleated you still have air space inside of your dwelling that is a very real part of the dwelling.

Air argument aside for a moment. I have a question specifically for you Tyciol. The rule in the BOM. It says that if you cast a spell while inside the robot, you can only effect the occupants that are inside, and the internal systems of the robot itself.
So if a spell cast inside the robot can't get out, how would you explain your argument that a spell can get in?

Basilisk wrote:The Sourcebook One quote only applies to Psi-Stalkers, TM. No matter how much you stretch it, it still doesn't cover actual magic use.

Sourcebook One says that a mage inside the robot can not use his paranormal powers to affect anybody outside the bot. Is this stretching it when it applies directly to this topic??

As for the BoM quote--well, there are a number of spells that were obviously intended to pass through vehicles. I've listed some of them, and you haven't objected to any so far. Teleportation is just one of them.

As with all rules there are a few exeptions. I've always said this and even brought some of those exceptions up. But unless a spell states in it's discription, or for that matter anyplace else in any of the Rifts books, (Heck I'd accept any Palladium book for that matter) then it's not an exception. Saying that it is an exception won't make it so.

Teleporting a fusion block into a vehicle doesn't count, in my mind, as an instant kill due to the sheer amount of preparation required to actually accomplish it. It says right there in the spell description how hard it is to teleport something or someone to a location (like the interior of a vehicle) that you've never been to. So let that be a warning to you: never let a mage see or visit a location you really don't want them coming back to any time they please.

That's a matter for each individual GM to decide, weather or not it would be an instant kill. Either way the rules don't allow it.

Your arguements beyond those two quotes have been very solipsistic in nature and don't really prove anything beyond your desire to justify something that doesn't really make any sense and isn't even, really, justifiable according to the spell's restrictions.

"Solipsistic"?? Had to look that one up to see what you were calling me! But your absolutly right. Unless you have proof that teleportation is an exception to the rule in the BOM, then teleportation would not work. Due to that rule being all inclusive to magic. States it in the first sentance. Of all the peaple on this topic, not one person, including Doom in his mighty self-importance, could give me one single quote that said that you could teleport into a robot or vehicle. I've looked extensivly myself. And challanged anyone else to prove me wrong. The search proved to be fruitless. Sorry. But by cannon rules such a thing could not be done.

Tyciol wrote:The spell can get out. I can cast teleport, and teleport outside of the robot. I am affecting the target, which is inside the robot with me, so it will work.

Not quite. The teleport spell states that the mage arrives at the "target destination". You can't target anything outside the robot in the first place. Opps, no teleportation out. Or in.

Temporalmage wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Temporalmage wrote: If you can't target the vehicle itself....then how can you target the inside of a vehicle??? Seems like that would be the largest part of the vehicle wouldn't it???

No, the inside of a vehicle isn't part of the vehicle at all. It's just empty space.

It's part of the vehicle. Otherwise why did you yourself just admit that it was?? As in "inside of the vehicle". If it wasnt' part of the vehicle then why use the verb vehicle when describing it? See what I mean?? It's the same as trying to say that your living room isn't part of your house just because it's empty space. Just because that part is full of air does not make it any less a part of the vehicle itself.

Nice, but phrases don't make reality.
I can say "the inside of a vehicle", but that doesn't make the Inside actually part of the vehicle anymore than me saying "my neighbor" gives me any ownership of the guy who happens to live nextdoor.

If the Inside of a vehicle is a part of the vehicle, do me a favor.
Go to your local auto-mechanic and tell them that you want a new inside for your car.
They'll probably say "you mean new upholstry and such?"
"No," you can explain. "I mean the INSIDE of the car. The space on the inside of the car..."

Let me know what he says.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Temporalmage wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Temporalmage wrote: If you can't target the vehicle itself....then how can you target the inside of a vehicle??? Seems like that would be the largest part of the vehicle wouldn't it???

No, the inside of a vehicle isn't part of the vehicle at all. It's just empty space.

It's part of the vehicle. Otherwise why did you yourself just admit that it was?? As in "inside of the vehicle". If it wasnt' part of the vehicle then why use the verb vehicle when describing it? See what I mean?? It's the same as trying to say that your living room isn't part of your house just because it's empty space. Just because that part is full of air does not make it any less a part of the vehicle itself.

Nice, but phrases don't make reality.
I can say "the inside of a vehicle", but that doesn't make the Inside actually part of the vehicle anymore than me saying "my neighbor" gives me any ownership of the guy who happens to live nextdoor.

If the Inside of a vehicle is a part of the vehicle, do me a favor.
Go to your local auto-mechanic and tell them that you want a new inside for your car.
They'll probably say "you mean new upholstry and such?"
"No," you can explain. "I mean the INSIDE of the car. The space on the inside of the car..."

Let me know what he says.

He gave me air freshener. Now my car smells like new!! Thanks for the idea!!