Giant2005 wrote:Killer Cyborg wrote:Giant2005 wrote:I don't understand what the problem is? Tarn said Japan was a quiet cluster of wilderness islands or something like that...
What is the problem? She says the entire planet is covered in wilderness. Is the issue the word quiet? Because quiet does not mean devoid of life.
No, but it doesn't mean "mega-damage samurais and ninjas" either.
The impression that the passage gives is that if there are any people living there, they're going to be pretty much small fishing villages and such with no real industry.
Which is not how the Rifts: Japan book portrays things.
And the thing is, we're not even really discussing whether or not this change is a good or a bad thing (though I'm obviously against it) at this point- we're discussing whether or not it IS a change.
If you can read Tarn's original passage, then read the Rifts: Japan book, and you can honestly say, "Yeah, that book is pretty much what I expected when I read that passage," I'm curious how.
Aside from the return of the republic of Japan (which Tarn may have no knowledge of, even if she had been to Japan), that passage does make me think of the feudal Japan we have.
Well, it just so happens that I bought a copy of Rifts Japan a while back, to help out Palladium, and for this kind of occasion.
We know that in the main book, Tarn went to Japan, and saw nothing but a quiet little cluster of wilderness islands.
Did
Rifts: Japan stick to that concept?
I don't think so, but maybe I have some of the info wrong- I haven't given the book a thorough read lately, and am currently flipping through to refresh my memory on what's there.
The New Empire, which is the rebuilt Japan, and which does not seem to include any of the cities that rifted in around 87 PA, has (Japan, p. 11):
-A total population of 6.8 million people.
-1.2 million in the main city, Kyoto.
-Cities with an average population of 1d6x100,000
-Towns with populations of 1d6x1000
-Villages with populations of 2d6x100
-"Exploded into power around 1 PA!" (Japan, p. 12)
-Have samurai that "represent the
omnipresent military" as well as the law.
The capital city, Kyoto, has a 1,000' Millenium Tree, which helps the locals "fend off the oni and other supernatural horrors that plague the island."
So we're looking at a "quiet little cluster of wilderness islands" that has nearly 7 million people
in one region, with a large-scale feudal society complete with entire cities and towns, a society that has thrived for over 70 years longer than the CS has even existed, and an omnipresent military, and that has Millenium Tree, and that is plagued by supernatural horrors.
I can't see that description working together with what's actually there.
Also, there is The Zone, where the oni live.
Japan,p. 24
"The few human villages that exist are enslaved by vile supernatural forces that prey on the helpless humans at their leisure. Even the well-trained and equipped warriors of the Republic are at a disadvantage in the areas where large bands of oni and kappa are in control."
Basically, the entire area of The Zone is made up of tribes of supernatural creatures vying for power and dominance, some of the tribes being the equivalent of small armies.
Not exactly quiet.
Japan, p. 27
Place seems to have quite a few ley lines, for an unremarkable area of wilderness islands.
Oh, and here's another gem: The TW Fire-Breathing Arquebus (p. 37).
IIRC, Techno-Wizardry was originally supposed to have been invented in North America (though I cannot currently find the reference). In any case, it's supposed to be relatively rare.
So this quiet backwater has TW items... and Tarn doesn't think it's noteworthy.
Moreover, they have the TW Fire-Breathing Arquebus, which has this passage in its description:
When the first European travelers arrived in Japan, they brought muskets and arequebuses... which greatly impressed the islanders. Japan was manufacturing copies of those weapons in a matter of years.
Japanese alchemists, eta techno-wizards and tech ninja became fascinated with the concept of firearms. They tried to replicate the effect using magic, and succeeded in creating an equivalent weapon by binding fire elementals to metal replicas of European weapons; this may have been one of the first techno-wizard weapons ever created! During the Great Cataclysm, these weapons became powerful mega-damage "guns" and were used by the desperate survivors who eventually formed some of the low-tech shogunates and kingdoms of Japan. They are especially popular among the eta of the Freelands.Apparently, Pre-Rifts, and pre-European-contact Japan, had technowizards, alchemists, and tech ninjas, and were able to make working SDC TW weapons.
You would think that Tarn might see at least one of those popular TW weapons, ask a few questions about it, and realize that it might have be interesting to her friends back in Lazlo, instead of shrugging, saying, "this sure is a quiet backwater," and moving on with her life.
Yeah, yeah... I agree that it's not definite that she would have necessarily seen one of these things, but the existence of popular techno-wizardry alone should have logically a) been noticed, and b) been mentioned.
This is a chick that mentions
rumors of supernatural creatures and magic... and somehow all this stuff in Japan escaped her attention?
Not to mention the RUNE SWORDS. Granted, they're super-rare and priceless... but there are probably more in Japan than in North America. Might be something she'd hear about and/or notice.
Hell, I'll cut this short.
All in all, I see pretty much no chance in hell that Erin Tarn the famous explorer and Scholar would show up in the islands of Japan, and either miss or dismiss all the demons, mystic warriors, magic weapon, large cities, large population of humans and other species, and a 1,000' tall magic tree.
Read over Tarn's descriptions of other areas.
She notes that the technology in France is equal to early 20th century pre-industrial, and that the population is about 4 million humans and 2 million non-humans.
She notes that England has a population of maybe 400k people with another 400k d-bees, scattered about in tiny villages, with the largest having a population of maybe 3k people.
She notes that the population and tech in Spain is about the same as France, only without as many ley lines.
But with Japan, she notes nothing but that it is a small cluster of wilderness islands.
Their low technology would not be a reason for them to be ignored- it sounds about the same as France and Spain.
The fact that they live mostly in villages would not be a reason for them to be ignored- she notes that most of Britain lives in villages, even though they're smaller than those in Japan.
Basically, she notes stuff worth mentioning.
And a thriving, ancient feudal empire with its own millenium tree, with techno-wizardry, with rune weapons, and with a population greater than pretty much anything in Europe other than the NGR + allies... that's something that she would have noticed, and would have made some kind of mention of.