Silhouettes as a base "race" to be combined with a class???

[Nightmask]

i wasn't sure on the dual class ability of psychics i have never encountered that in a game so am unsure how it would work.

Likely because psychics are treated as the odd-man-out, like too many games do. So you see all sorts of examples of mages dual-classing even when at least one of the classes is considered to be as spontaneous to develop as psychic powers, like becoming a Warlock or Mystic. Even though many species including humans have latent genes for psychic powers in virtually all members of the species and just need a catalyst to bring them out. Some even saddle psychics with unlisted insanities whereby they'd never change class no matter how implausible it would be for them not to.

Consider a Psi-Healer, staunchly dedicated to saving lives and healing others, only to be devastated by 'the one he couldn't save', maybe it's a loved one, maybe an orphanage, but his powers failed him. They just weren't enough to save those he sought to save. Now for many this would create a storyarc option where the psychic seeks to become a better healer, seeking to become a magic OCC that provides healing magic (he'd heard the rumors or seen mages healing before but hadn't felt the need to become one before). Not so some will insist, for he's a psychic and is delusional, as all psychics insist that their psychic powers are supreme and would never consider learning or becoming something else. They're obsessed to the level of insanity with their powers and never acknowledge any inadequacies on the part of their powers or that there's something else that might be better to become instead. Even though psychics clearly aren't insane (at least not as part of being a psychic) and as sentient beings can and should be able to decide on a career change and carry it out as anyone else.

[Tor]

The Healer OCC in the original PRPG wasn't a PCC (or even psychic at all, in spite of having ISP and mimicking psionics) and could certainly multi-class as a wizard to enhance their healing abilities if they wanted to.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Psychic characters that have a psychic class can only be that class per the published RAW.

Teachable PCC's are only teachable to a young psychic just starting the develop her powers w/o any class already.
In Other Words:
~Yes, some can be taught so long as they is nothing there to start.
~If there is a PCC there is can not be over-written and there is not enough PPE to burn off to develop a whole other set of psi powers.
~If the char has an OCC, the char has burned off their PPE to develop the skills in the OCC, and there is not enough PPE to burn off to develop Psi powers.

No, the PPE is not atrophied, it is BURNED OFF.
The Arzino writer did not properly research what the rules said before he did his writing. So what got published is an embarrassing mistake to many people.

[Tor]

RAW?

Teachable PCC's are only teachable to a young psychic just starting the develop her powers w/o any class already.

'ccording to what?

If there is a PCC there is can not be over-written and there is not enough PPE to burn off to develop a whole other set of psi powers.

Untrue, look at how much PPE some classes like Nega-Psychic got.

If the char has an OCC, the char has burned off their PPE to develop the skills in the OCC, and there is not enough PPE to burn off to develop Psi powers.

Our system doesn't actually use PPE to buy skills or psi though, so it's irrelevant. We allow people to change OCCs without burning up PPE. We allow people to learn new skills at higher levels. Heck in HU you can just go to school at any time and learn some just with time studying rather than XP.

[Hot Rod]

Rogue scholars can teach anyone any skill they know, only problem is NOT ONE of the books has mentioned how much they charge for this... There is even a merc training academy in Merctown, but cost to attend is not listed... PW2 has some in "Wonder World" but made it silly

Still if a Silhouette wanted to be anything but a dual class 'X' in my game he'd lose skills, all LLW like powers, and magic unless his new class granted them. Other abilities I'd consider on a case by case basis, as the character would be an aberration, possibly even abomination among his kind. Other races say if they can take other classes, and what they lose if they do so.

I would have liked to see the Parrot people race (WB30) have the option to take other classes, they looked so fun till you find out every one of them is a statistician!

Much also depends on the power level of the campaign. If there is a Dragon and Cosmic knight in the party, the pilot will probably have a ship & a PA or two and the mages need some edge whether magic item, artifact, or bonus (unique) racial ability.

HR

[drewkitty ~..~]

RAW=Rules As Written
--
According to the Text about Psychics. Example: Mystic Knights searching out children to train to become more Mystic Knights.
--
Nega-Psi: Have you heard of "The Exception that proves the rule"?
Just because there is an exception does not mean that the exception sets the standard. In this there is actually two exceptions, the Nega-Psi and the Mystic.
However, the Nega-Psychic is (should of been) a more a "mod" to be put on top of an mundane OCC then a class itself.
--
Then you are not familiar with the concept of the young having more PPE then adults? It is turning the PPE into powers and skills (along with growing up) that burn off their PPE. This is more a background concept, now, that has it's roots in the 1st editions of the game books (most prevalent in BTS1.) But the basic concept is still in force but only for children developing into adults and learning their 1st class. Note also this is also when the char is going through adolesscence so that also burns off PPE. If you look at the difference between the mundane adult human PPE and a PCC's PPE, you end up with only a difference of 2-8 PPE points more of Burned off PPE to gain Psi powers.
Then there is that for Psionic chars to change from a PCC ....their powers have to be "Gone"....for the char to be able to stop 'Being' their PCC.
Yes, the changing OCC rules do not have the depletion of the PPE written into it for simplification. Which is why I talk about a char's 1st class when talking about burning off PPE. It seams you did not pick up on this.

[Nightmask]

Rogue scholars can teach anyone any skill they know, only problem is NOT ONE of the books has mentioned how much they charge for this... There is even a merc training academy in Merctown, but cost to attend is not listed... PW2 has some in "Wonder World" but made it silly

Still if a Silhouette wanted to be anything but a dual class 'X' in my game he'd lose skills, all LLW like powers, and magic unless his new class granted them. Other abilities I'd consider on a case by case basis, as the character would be an aberration, possibly even abomination among his kind. Other races say if they can take other classes, and what they lose if they do so.

I would have liked to see the Parrot people race (WB30) have the option to take other classes, they looked so fun till you find out every one of them is a statistician!

Much also depends on the power level of the campaign. If there is a Dragon and Cosmic knight in the party, the pilot will probably have a ship & a PA or two and the mages need some edge whether magic item, artifact, or bonus (unique) racial ability.

HR

I have to wonder why you think their racial abilities are something they'd lose learning something else, particularly if it were a non-magic OCC. That'd be like a dragon forgetting how to shapeshift or regenerate (which isn't going to happen). They'd be a perfect fit for the Super-Spy OCC from Rifts: Mercenaries in fact.

[Hot Rod]

I have to wonder why you think their racial abilities are something they'd lose learning something else, particularly if it were a non-magic OCC. That'd be like a dragon forgetting how to shapeshift or regenerate (which isn't going to happen). They'd be a perfect fit for the Super-Spy OCC from Rifts: Mercenaries in fact.

Just because it is racial doesn't mean it wasn't learned & practiced perhaps? The character spent that time going his own direction (whatever that was, Temporal Wizard, Mystic, PA Pilot, Flooper exorcist...) Dragons also do not get an OCC (unless they dual-class per D&G) an no, regenerate and shapeshift are not LLW abilities and thus wouldn't be lost (if possessed). You would probably be using the Dragon XP table though since you have more abilities than your typical member of class {whatever}.

[drewkitty ~..~]

It all turns on if the abilities are racial abilities or RCC abilities. If the former they would keep them, if the latter they would not of been had in the 1st place, if talking about the char's 1st class.

But since the difference between the two can not be stated for certainty for the Silhouettes, any logical conclusions would have them "not having the powers" if they start out with anything other then the Race's RCC. Because that would be the ONLY way that they would be trained in anything other then the Race's RCC.

2nd classes...not possible as per Rifts canon. Rifts does not have any published changing class rules.

If importing the PF changing class rules...Not possible, they only cover (puts the next into Rifts speak) non-psychic OCC's.

Spoiler:

I put the last in rifts speak so even those that only play rifts can understand that in the setting the rules come from PCC's can not change their class as per the PF rules. And as such even if the PCC is called an OCC in Rifts, if they are following the PF rules they have to translate things so they follow the PF labeling.

[say652]

If another class is chosen it would be easiest to say the reason being the character didnt have the "normal" Silhouette abilities.

[DhAkael]

*Gendo Pose*
"This goes against the scenario... it must be eliminated."

[Nightmask]

I have to wonder why you think their racial abilities are something they'd lose learning something else, particularly if it were a non-magic OCC. That'd be like a dragon forgetting how to shapeshift or regenerate (which isn't going to happen). They'd be a perfect fit for the Super-Spy OCC from Rifts: Mercenaries in fact.

Just because it is racial doesn't mean it wasn't learned & practiced perhaps? The character spent that time going his own direction (whatever that was, Temporal Wizard, Mystic, PA Pilot, Flooper exorcist...) Dragons also do not get an OCC (unless they dual-class per D&G) an no, regenerate and shapeshift are not LLW abilities and thus wouldn't be lost (if possessed). You would probably be using the Dragon XP table though since you have more abilities than your typical member of class {whatever}.

If it's something you learn and practice then it's not racial, since by definition a racial ability is something you're naturally born with. You'd have to practice something that was completely antithetical to your racial ability for it to maybe be neutralized (and the only case that I know of that happening is with the Biomancer elves, as becoming a Fire Warlock negates their natural racial abilities of limited biomancy).

Silhouettes are said to be linked to the plane of shadow and have natural spell-casting abilities they clearly aren't a learned feature for them so aren't going to just 'go away' having a different selection of OCC and certainly practicing magic, something they have a natural affinity for, isn't going to go negating those abilities. That ability is as inherent to them as shapeshifting or regeneration are for dragons.

[Giant2005]

RAW=Rules As Written
--
According to the Text about Psychics. Example: Mystic Knights searching out children to train to become more Mystic Knights.
--
Nega-Psi: Have you heard of "The Exception that proves the rule"?
Just because there is an exception does not mean that the exception sets the standard. In this there is actually two exceptions, the Nega-Psi and the Mystic.
However, the Nega-Psychic is (should of been) a more a "mod" to be put on top of an mundane OCC then a class itself.
--
Then you are not familiar with the concept of the young having more PPE then adults? It is turning the PPE into powers and skills (along with growing up) that burn off their PPE. This is more a background concept, now, that has it's roots in the 1st editions of the game books (most prevalent in BTS1.) But the basic concept is still in force but only for children developing into adults and learning their 1st class. Note also this is also when the char is going through adolesscence so that also burns off PPE. If you look at the difference between the mundane adult human PPE and a PCC's PPE, you end up with only a difference of 2-8 PPE points more of Burned off PPE to gain Psi powers.
Then there is that for Psionic chars to change from a PCC ....their powers have to be "Gone"....for the char to be able to stop 'Being' their PCC.
Yes, the changing OCC rules do not have the depletion of the PPE written into it for simplification. Which is why I talk about a char's 1st class when talking about burning off PPE. It seams you did not pick up on this.

I don't know how any of that is relevant - the Silhouette isn't even psychic...
As to the topic, as Nightmask points out so readily, it isn't worth the hassle - just stick to canon and don't let the Silhouette have a different class.
If you want a race with magic abilities with some other OCC, I'd recommend the Shakdan from Thundercloud Galaxy. They are the only race out there with learned casting that is capable of choosing a different OCC canonically.

[Nightmask]

RAW=Rules As Written
--
According to the Text about Psychics. Example: Mystic Knights searching out children to train to become more Mystic Knights.
--
Nega-Psi: Have you heard of "The Exception that proves the rule"?
Just because there is an exception does not mean that the exception sets the standard. In this there is actually two exceptions, the Nega-Psi and the Mystic.
However, the Nega-Psychic is (should of been) a more a "mod" to be put on top of an mundane OCC then a class itself.
--
Then you are not familiar with the concept of the young having more PPE then adults? It is turning the PPE into powers and skills (along with growing up) that burn off their PPE. This is more a background concept, now, that has it's roots in the 1st editions of the game books (most prevalent in BTS1.) But the basic concept is still in force but only for children developing into adults and learning their 1st class. Note also this is also when the char is going through adolesscence so that also burns off PPE. If you look at the difference between the mundane adult human PPE and a PCC's PPE, you end up with only a difference of 2-8 PPE points more of Burned off PPE to gain Psi powers.
Then there is that for Psionic chars to change from a PCC ....their powers have to be "Gone"....for the char to be able to stop 'Being' their PCC.
Yes, the changing OCC rules do not have the depletion of the PPE written into it for simplification. Which is why I talk about a char's 1st class when talking about burning off PPE. It seams you did not pick up on this.

I don't know how any of that is relevant - the Silhouette isn't even psychic...
As to the topic, as Nightmask points out so readily, it isn't worth the hassle - just stick to canon and don't let the Silhouette have a different class.
If you want a race with magic abilities with some other OCC, I'd recommend the Shakdan from Thundercloud Galaxy. They are the only race out there with learned casting that is capable of choosing a different OCC canonically.

It's not that much of a hassle, it's not like they have a raft of high-powered abilities, allowing for developing an OCC like Temporal Wizard or Super-Spy isn't going to prove particularly game-changing. Still if it bothers someone so much to think that a Silhouette could also be a Temporal Wizard or adopt the actual LLW OCC and expand their magical abilities disallowing it is the easier path.

[drewkitty ~..~]

RAW=Rules As Written
--
According to the Text about Psychics. Example: Mystic Knights searching out children to train to become more Mystic Knights.
--
Nega-Psi: Have you heard of "The Exception that proves the rule"?
Just because there is an exception does not mean that the exception sets the standard. In this there is actually two exceptions, the Nega-Psi and the Mystic.
However, the Nega-Psychic is (should of been) a more a "mod" to be put on top of an mundane OCC then a class itself.
--
Then you are not familiar with the concept of the young having more PPE then adults? It is turning the PPE into powers and skills (along with growing up) that burn off their PPE. This is more a background concept, now, that has it's roots in the 1st editions of the game books (most prevalent in BTS1.) But the basic concept is still in force but only for children developing into adults and learning their 1st class. Note also this is also when the char is going through adolescence so that also burns off PPE. If you look at the difference between the mundane adult human PPE and a PCC's PPE, you end up with only a difference of 2-8 PPE points more of Burned off PPE to gain Psi powers.
Then there is that for Psionic chars to change from a PCC ....their powers have to be "Gone"....for the char to be able to stop 'Being' their PCC.
Yes, the changing OCC rules do not have the depletion of the PPE written into it for simplification. Which is why I talk about a char's 1st class when talking about burning off PPE. It seams you did not pick up on this.

I don't know how any of that is relevant - the Silhouette isn't even psychic...
As to the topic, as Nightmask points out so readily, it isn't worth the hassle - just stick to canon and don't let the Silhouette have a different class.
If you want a race with magic abilities with some other OCC, I'd recommend the Shakdan from Thundercloud Galaxy. They are the only race out there with learned casting that is capable of choosing a different OCC canonically.

The post you were responding to was in response to Tor's post.
As many know here NM is very liberal in his postings of his house rules. Many of an argument has been started cause he post his house rules as if they are canon. Not indicating that they are his house rules.
So you referencing his Opinion means nothing to me. He is one of the three people I have on my foe's list.
I only have two reasons for placement on it, and he would take offense if I told you the why he got placed on my foes list.

[Nightmask]

RAW=Rules As Written
--
According to the Text about Psychics. Example: Mystic Knights searching out children to train to become more Mystic Knights.
--
Nega-Psi: Have you heard of "The Exception that proves the rule"?
Just because there is an exception does not mean that the exception sets the standard. In this there is actually two exceptions, the Nega-Psi and the Mystic.
However, the Nega-Psychic is (should of been) a more a "mod" to be put on top of an mundane OCC then a class itself.
--
Then you are not familiar with the concept of the young having more PPE then adults? It is turning the PPE into powers and skills (along with growing up) that burn off their PPE. This is more a background concept, now, that has it's roots in the 1st editions of the game books (most prevalent in BTS1.) But the basic concept is still in force but only for children developing into adults and learning their 1st class. Note also this is also when the char is going through adolescence so that also burns off PPE. If you look at the difference between the mundane adult human PPE and a PCC's PPE, you end up with only a difference of 2-8 PPE points more of Burned off PPE to gain Psi powers.
Then there is that for Psionic chars to change from a PCC ....their powers have to be "Gone"....for the char to be able to stop 'Being' their PCC.
Yes, the changing OCC rules do not have the depletion of the PPE written into it for simplification. Which is why I talk about a char's 1st class when talking about burning off PPE. It seams you did not pick up on this.

I don't know how any of that is relevant - the Silhouette isn't even psychic...
As to the topic, as Nightmask points out so readily, it isn't worth the hassle - just stick to canon and don't let the Silhouette have a different class.
If you want a race with magic abilities with some other OCC, I'd recommend the Shakdan from Thundercloud Galaxy. They are the only race out there with learned casting that is capable of choosing a different OCC canonically.

The post you were responding to was in response to Tor's post.
As many know here NM is very liberal in his postings of his house rules. Many of an argument has been started cause he post his house rules as if they are canon. Not indicating that they are his house rules.
So you referencing his Opinion means nothing to me. He is one of the three people I have on my foe's list.
I only have two reasons for placement on it, and he would take offense if I told you the why he got placed on my foes list.

Don't go confusing me with you drew, you routinely post things that clearly aren't canon but present them as if they were. Just because you think because you think it it must be canon doesn't make it so, it remains just your opinion that you present as if it were canon.

I also am quite sure why I'm on your foe list, because I don't have any problems with disagreeing with you and pointing out when you're presenting your house rules as if they were facts and you really don't seem too tolerant of that.

[drewkitty ~..~]

The difference between me and NM is that when corrected with what is canon I change what I say to reflect canon. NM does not change what he says one bit, even when people try to correct him with what canon says. Not even to say what he is saying is his house rules. (At least in my experience of his postings up to the point he got put on my foes list. After that I generally ignored his posts.)

Yes, in Canon there are some mislabeling of things which I refuse to take part in, because they propagate stupid misconceptions. Which is why I have a disclaimer in my Signature that I call things what they are, and not what they are mislabeled with.

[Nightmask]

The difference between me and NM is that when corrected with what is canon I change what I say to reflect canon. NM does not change what he says one bit, even when people try to correct him with what canon says. Not even to say what he is saying is his house rules. (At least in my experience of his postings up to the point he got put on my foes list. After that I generally ignored his posts.)

Yes, in Canon there are some mislabeling of things which I refuse to take part in, because they propagate stupid misconceptions. Which is why I have a disclaimer in my Signature that I call things what they are, and not what they are mislabeled with.

Which is presenting your house rules as if they were canon, so clearly you don't correct what you say to reflect canon. Given the nature of the books I present what appears to be canon based on how things are written, someone else may insist on things not reading as I present them but I'm certainly not presenting a house rule. A house rule supersedes or contradicts an existing canon rule, presenting what one believes a rule to say is not a house rule, that's presenting a canon rule and what it seems to mean.