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Re: Why pick on the CS
Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 1:37 am
by Nightmask
llywelyn wrote:flatline wrote:llywelyn wrote:The earth is not their home
Please explain how them living here on Earth yet the Earth isn't their home.
Sorry if that's confusing. I know they have questionable loyalties, but of course the writers' home is earth.
I was talking about the Dbees, whose homeland is elsewhere by definition.
That would be incorrect; their homeland is where they're settled, raised, and have been raising families for generations. There are no questionable loyalties, that's the kind of unsupported reasoning that saw nearly every Japanese-American locked into internment camps during WWII and everything they owned taken from them because 'well they're not really one of us they're Japanese'. All it did was take people who HAD been on our side and turned them against us because WE betrayed THEM.
The D-bees do not have homelands to return to, they have where they end up on Rifts Earth as their homelands when they settle down. That land is theirs, not someone's a thousand miles away who insists the boundaries of their domain cover the entire planet and everyone's living on what they claim as theirs. Iraq felt it could just say that Kuwait was inside its borders and belonged to it too, it didn't end well for Iraq because Kuwait didn't belong to it and enough people were around to ensure it went back to the people who it belonged to. Rifts Earth sadly doesn't have anyone who can defend the defenseless like that from people like the CS.
Re: Why pick on the CS
Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 5:48 am
by Dead Boy
Balabanto wrote:flatline wrote:Balabanto wrote:Any mage, dbee, etc can gain the trust of the CS by fighting the Xiticix and bringing back some heads. Not only will they escort you to the border, but they won't take your things or whack your dbee friends. And they will even give you paperwork that confirms your status. There are people like Jericho Holmes who realize the current state of the CS can't last forever.
Where is this stated? Is this cannon?
--flatline
Its in the xiticix book, which no one reads.
Is that among the Hook. Line, Sinker material, because I'm not finding it?
And for the record, I read the book, though it's been some time.
Re: Why pick on the CS
Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 6:13 am
by llywelyn
flatline wrote:Just because human ancestors lived on Earth before the rifts came doesn't give the CS any special claim to Earth.
Sure it does, just as it automatically qualifies alien residency as invasion right up until the humans allow them to immigrate.
Anything else is a fail on a logical reasoning roll (false analogy) and/or misplaced commentary on modern-day politics.
Nightmask wrote:[series of false analogies]
You're mostly right about your real-world politics, and remain completely wrong in how you're applying them. (And if you have a source detailing how the American occupation forces in Japan found no evidence of fifth column activity, I'd love a link. People complain about that internment despite the fact
plenty of Japanese did have divided loyalties and the ones who didn't
understood why they were being interned. It was unjust that the German-American Bund or the Japanese on Hawai`i were given relatively more freedom, but that doesn't
ipso facto make internment a bad policy.)
The analogy with of Dbees with the European invaders in North America was perfectly apt. Yet, you somehow managed to forget what actually happened to the natives...
Re: Why pick on the CS
Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 7:36 am
by Balabanto
Dead Boy wrote:Balabanto wrote:flatline wrote:Balabanto wrote:Any mage, dbee, etc can gain the trust of the CS by fighting the Xiticix and bringing back some heads. Not only will they escort you to the border, but they won't take your things or whack your dbee friends. And they will even give you paperwork that confirms your status. There are people like Jericho Holmes who realize the current state of the CS can't last forever.
Where is this stated? Is this cannon?
--flatline
Its in the xiticix book, which no one reads.
Is that among the Hook. Line, Sinker material, because I'm not finding it?
And for the record, I read the book, though it's been some time.
It's somewhere in the "Being a Xiticix Fighter" section. Granted, they still won't LIKE you. But if you have the paperwork, they won't kill you, either. The flip side to this, of course, is that you could be a mercenary and get caught doing a mission against the CS later, and have your status revoked. There's nothing to prevent this either. I'm still trying to figure out whether they give out Xiticix fighter IDs that broadcast an IFF signal or not. For reasons of not wasting ammunition in a war zone, tho, they probably should.
But what I think this really boils down to is this. It's just levels of racism vs. obvious war for survival.
Humanoid Dbee=Semi-recognizable. Unpleasant, should leave planet.
Xiticix=Ugly. Does nothing but eat, breed, and kill everything in it's path like a giant swarm of evil locusts. No one is going to get to fight it out for the planet, or survive if these things win. Anyone who kills enough of these things is probably worthy of survival long enough to be allowed to do it again.
Plus, these guys have watched their buddies get eaten by the Xiticix. This can be a particularly shattering experience.
What this DOES do is create an opposition to Prosek's rule over the long term, which is desperately needed to bring some sociological complication to the monolithic fascism of the coalition states. When you have to fight alongside someone, especially against an "Eat your face" enemy, everyone's the same. Kill your enemies, or get eaten. The problem is, it won't happen in our game lifetime. Usually, something like this takes two to three generations to have a significant effect.
Re: Why pick on the CS
Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 8:01 am
by Nightmask
llywelyn wrote:flatline wrote:Just because human ancestors lived on Earth before the rifts came doesn't give the CS any special claim to Earth.
Sure it does, just as it automatically qualifies alien residency as invasion right up until the humans allow them to immigrate.
Anything else is a fail on a logical reasoning roll (false analogy) and/or misplaced commentary on modern-day politics.
Sorry but you're just wrong, and attempting to dismiss points you can't successfully refute by ascribing to them negative labels. Such as your falsely calling their very existence on Rifts Earth as an invasion when an invasion is a deliberate attempt to take over and conquer someone else's territory. You know, like the CS did to the citizens of Tolkeen. If you're born and bred somewhere you're a native, that's what makes you a native. The CS has no magical right or ownership over anything especially what other people have owned for generations.
llywelyn wrote:Nightmask wrote:[series of false analogies]
You're mostly right about your real-world politics, and remain completely wrong in how you're applying them. (And if you have a source detailing how the American occupation forces in Japan found no evidence of fifth column activity, I'd love a link. People complain about that internment despite the fact
plenty of Japanese did have divided loyalties and the ones who didn't
understood why they were being interned. It was unjust that the German-American Bund or the Japanese on Hawai`i were given relatively more freedom, but that doesn't
ipso facto make internment a bad policy.)
The analogy with of Dbees with the European invaders in North America was perfectly apt. Yet, you somehow managed to forget what actually happened to the natives...
Yeah, if you're going to comment about someone's post actually quote their post instead of replacing it with a misleading or in this case blatantly false labels. It's really easy to actually quote the text here.
Meanwhile given as you well understand it's impossible to prove a negative (that no fifth column existed) and is a common fallacious argument used by people. You are required to prove that there was one, of which the incident you present doesn't constitute proof of anything of the sort and Hawaii resisted orders to intern all its Japanese right to the end of the war and as a result had the highest number of Japanese-American volunteers for the war effort. Meanwhile those who had their homes and livelihoods stolen from them in the states and locked into prison barracks, surrounded by guards, and treated as criminals for being Japanese had every reason to resent and hate the US after they came here leaving Japan behind to align with the US looking for a better life.
What you seem to miss while continuing to use the false label of invader in reference to all D-Bees is that they did NOT come to Rifts Earth willingly, they did not come with any conquest in mind or to harm anyone, and were minding their own business until attacked and killed by the forces of the CS for existing.
Seriously, stop trying to paint the CS as a noble champion of humanity. It's not. It tells the masses that to keep them complacent and willing backers of the atrocities the CS commits. Which is why they're rightly called an Evil Empire.
Re: Why pick on the CS
Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 9:23 am
by flatline
llywelyn wrote:flatline wrote:Just because human ancestors lived on Earth before the rifts came doesn't give the CS any special claim to Earth.
Sure it does, just as it automatically qualifies alien residency as invasion right up until the humans allow them to immigrate.
Oh my.
So if the D-bee's ancestors met some humans when they came through the rifts and those humans said it was okay for them to settle there, then the CS has no right to antagonize them, right?
--flatline
Re: Why pick on the CS
Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 9:26 am
by llywelyn
flatline wrote:So if the D-bee's ancestors met some humans when they came through the rifts and those humans said it was okay for them to settle there, then the CS has no right to antagonize them, right?
Are the humans still running a sovereign country over the territory recognized by the CS?
If yes, then sure.
Re: Why pick on the CS
Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 10:11 am
by llywelyn
Nightmask wrote:Sorry but you're just wrong, ... If you're born and bred somewhere you're a native, that's what makes you a native. The CS has no magical right or ownership over anything especially what other people have owned for generations.
If you want to make up your own morality, that's fine, but it's not going to be very convincing when you simply don't care about its risk to humanity. The CS has sovereignty ("ownership") over its land as the representative of the preexisting American states and by right of conquest. Its citizenship ("native status") is granted at its pleasure.
As for birthright citizenship, even under Common Law, it's inapplicable in the case of invaders and those who are enemies of the country. And
jus soli is a new concept made possible by well-protected nation-states.
Jus sanguinis is the traditional way of forming states.
llywelyn wrote:Nightmask wrote:[series of false analogies]
Yeah, if you're going to comment about someone's post actually quote their post instead of replacing it with a misleading or in this case blatantly false labels. It's really easy to actually quote the text here.
It is easier to simply quote the text, sure. I preferred to make it easier for readers to follow, while still capturing the gist of your argument.
You, on the other hand, have never addressed the substantive arguments I've raised and simply repeat yourself and cycle through various historical scandals hoping to win the argument by shame.
EDIT: To make this more constructive criticism, an example: Before and in that post you quoted, I explained why your analogies are false and Dbees do not correlate at all to human-on-human racism and gave numerous reasons. Your response was essentially "nuh-uh", followed by more analogies of the type I'd just refuted. Kindly note my actual objections to equating modern day racism and
Rifts era speciesism and try again.
Meanwhile given as you well understand it's impossible to prove a negative (that no fifth column existed) and is a common fallacious argument used by people. You are required to prove that there was one
I did. That you didn't understand that it did doesn't really support your point.
Also, given that the United States had access to Japanese records, my question was legitimate. I don't hear people say the
issei were exonerated, just that the US should be ashamed of itself. It's not the strongest argument they could be making, if they're right.
What you seem to miss while continuing to use the false label of invader in reference to all D-Bees is that they did NOT come to Rifts Earth willingly, they did not come with any conquest in mind or to harm anyone, and were minding their own business until attacked and killed by the forces of the CS for existing.
I don't know where you came to your conclusion that they're all refugees, but aside from escaped summoned demons and ex-Splugorth slaves these are people who walked through a rift, presumably not at gunpoint. I'll spare you the dictionary quote of "invasion", but suffice it to say that they're occupying land they've moved into against the will of the original claimants.
If they were citizens, they'd have squatters rights, but they're not and without organized government, it's
terra nullius free for annexation; with a government and claiming that land, they are precisely invaders.
You're also still completely ignoring the lesson learned by the Native Americans. Even
before the Europeans began reading the
Requerimiento and forcing them into treaties, it was not a good deal.
You say Dbees are fine and dandy because you haven't seen a sourcebook that says they're scouting for an invasion force or carrying a horrific contagion. Moreover, given Mr. Siembieda's support for Lazlo, you can take their propaganda for fact. Since you don't live there, you ignore the actual enormous numbers provided by the books and focus on the six or seven families of farmers that show up in your adventures.
In any realistic depiction of living in this world, not one of those comforts is available.
Seriously, stop trying to paint the CS as a noble champion of humanity. It's not.
I didn't say it was noble.
I said it was defending humanity and that your arguments are foolish for not addressing the substantial problems of telling friend from foe in this environment and possibly ignoble for not caring what the consequences of your mistakes are.
Re: Why pick on the CS
Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 10:43 am
by Mech-Viper Prime
Dead Boy wrote:Balabanto wrote:flatline wrote:Balabanto wrote:Any mage, dbee, etc can gain the trust of the CS by fighting the Xiticix and bringing back some heads. Not only will they escort you to the border, but they won't take your things or whack your dbee friends. And they will even give you paperwork that confirms your status. There are people like Jericho Holmes who realize the current state of the CS can't last forever.
Where is this stated? Is this cannon?
--flatline
Its in the xiticix book, which no one reads.
Is that among the Hook. Line, Sinker material, because I'm not finding it?
And for the record, I read the book, though it's been some time.
You shouldn't be reading its against CS law,you should be burning down helpless d-bee villages like rest of us CS do apparently.
Re: Why pick on the CS
Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 10:50 am
by llywelyn
Mech-Viper Prime wrote:You shouldn't be reading its against CS law
And yet in all the pictures of the CS, there are always posters everywhere.
Wonder if there's a scanner they use that reads it out for them?
Re: Why pick on the CS
Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 10:58 am
by Mech-Viper Prime
llywelyn wrote:Mech-Viper Prime wrote:You shouldn't be reading its against CS law
And yet in all the pictures of the CS, there are always posters everywhere.
Wonder if there's a scanner they use that reads it out for them?
Personally I would love to see how they do business, ordering stock, do reports and other fun things like that
Re: Why pick on the CS
Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 12:44 pm
by jaymz
Why pick on the CS? Because, it's easy to do as they are viewed differently in some way by every single person on these forums
Re: Why pick on the CS
Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 1:05 am
by llywelyn
Mech-Viper Prime wrote:Personally I would love to see how they do business, ordering stock, do reports and other fun things like that
Iirc, before literacy, they would make contracts by putting little clay statues inside a clay ball, writing the price on the outside and baking it.
When it came time for delivery, they'd break it open to make sure the count was right.
So, one could imagine the CS managers spending most of their day playing with little plastic toys and arguing with light-fingered deliverymen...
Re: Why pick on the CS
Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 1:23 am
by kogwar
Mech-Viper Prime wrote:llywelyn wrote:Mech-Viper Prime wrote:You shouldn't be reading its against CS law
And yet in all the pictures of the CS, there are always posters everywhere.
Wonder if there's a scanner they use that reads it out for them?
Personally I would love to see how they do business, ordering stock, do reports and other fun things like that
IIRC the Dead boy armor reads for the soldier at least the new one does.
Re: Why pick on the CS
Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 3:30 am
by Ronin78
I think of them like the Alliance is serenity/Firefly. Sure they are evil. But they are in control. Sure you can fight the power a little. But don't push it.
Second I find it fun to put the players in the CS and put them in a situation to do something good despite being part of the CS.
Re: Why pick on the CS
Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 4:29 am
by Killer Cyborg
Ronin78 wrote:I think of them like the Alliance is serenity/Firefly. Sure they are evil. But they are in control. Sure you can fight the power a little. But don't push it.
Second I find it fun to put the players in the CS and put them in a situation to do something good despite being part of the CS.
Re: Why pick on the CS
Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 11:18 am
by Ed
Mech-Viper Prime wrote:llywelyn wrote:Mech-Viper Prime wrote:You shouldn't be reading its against CS law
And yet in all the pictures of the CS, there are always posters everywhere.
Wonder if there's a scanner they use that reads it out for them?
Personally I would love to see how they do business, ordering stock, do reports and other fun things like that
A lot of supply chain management is automated today, with b2b, b2c, and b2s expert systems how much literacy is even needed?
Re: Why pick on the CS
Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 11:41 am
by Killer Cyborg
Ed wrote:Mech-Viper Prime wrote:llywelyn wrote:Mech-Viper Prime wrote:You shouldn't be reading its against CS law
And yet in all the pictures of the CS, there are always posters everywhere.
Wonder if there's a scanner they use that reads it out for them?
Personally I would love to see how they do business, ordering stock, do reports and other fun things like that
A lot of supply chain management is automated today, with b2b, b2c, and b2s expert systems how much literacy is even needed?
Also, last I heard, literacy wasn't illegal in the CS, only discouraged.
Re: Why pick on the CS
Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 11:44 am
by jaymz
Killer Cyborg wrote:Ed wrote:Mech-Viper Prime wrote:llywelyn wrote:Mech-Viper Prime wrote:You shouldn't be reading its against CS law
And yet in all the pictures of the CS, there are always posters everywhere.
Wonder if there's a scanner they use that reads it out for them?
Personally I would love to see how they do business, ordering stock, do reports and other fun things like that
A lot of supply chain management is automated today, with b2b, b2c, and b2s expert systems how much literacy is even needed?
Also, last I heard, literacy wasn't illegal in the CS, only discouraged.
The nation could not function unless a significant portion of the population was literate and pretty much everyone would have to have at least the most basic of math skills (2+2=4, 4+4=8)
Re: Why pick on the CS
Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 11:57 am
by llywelyn
jaymz wrote:The nation could not function unless a significant portion of the population was literate and pretty much everyone would have to have at least the most basic of math skills (2+2=4, 4+4=8)
It's unnecessary for smaller settlements, although it would be a fun mini-adventure to let your higher-IQ, higher-MA players cheat some CS locals - "I'll give you this shiny new coin for that dingy old piece of plastic..." - only to have their older brother (a Deadboy on leave with some of his friends) come in and try to set things right.
Re: Why pick on the CS
Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 12:22 pm
by jaymz
llywelyn wrote:jaymz wrote:The nation could not function unless a significant portion of the population was literate and pretty much everyone would have to have at least the most basic of math skills (2+2=4, 4+4=8)
It's unnecessary for smaller settlements, although it would be a fun mini-adventure to let your higher-IQ, higher-MA players cheat some CS locals - "I'll give you this shiny new coin for that dingy old piece of plastic..." - only to have their older brother (a Deadboy on leave with some of his friends) come in and try to set things right.
That was I specifically said the nation.
Re: Why pick on the CS
Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 12:27 pm
by keir451
I agree that any being born and raised in a given territory is considered to be a native of said territory. However that does not change the way the CS views them. To the CS ALL beings that are not human or are from a RIFT (as are most d-bees originally) are treated as invaders. It does not matter to that they were born here the CS simply does not recognize them as having any rights other than what the CS chooses to grant them.
Re: Why pick on the CS
Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 7:13 pm
by Ed
jaymz wrote:
The nation could not function unless a significant portion of the population was literate and pretty much everyone would have to have at least the most basic of math skills (2+2=4, 4+4=8)
Depends on how automated the society is. Even today when you work the cash register at McDonalds you're selecting pictures or icons for the order; with computerized inventory tracking and ordering there'd be no need for more than a hand full of literate people. In a cashless society they wouldn't even need to know how to make change.
Re: Why pick on the CS
Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 10:54 pm
by llywelyn
keir451 wrote:I agree that any being born and raised in a given territory is considered to be a native of said territory. However that does not change the way the CS views them. To the CS ALL beings that are not human or are from a RIFT (as are most d-bees originally) are treated as invaders. It does not matter to that they were born here the CS simply does not recognize them as having any rights other than what the CS chooses to grant them.
So who's granting the "native" status? Lazlo?
If it's just an English word with no application and no rights attached, it doesn't have much bearing.
And again, North Americans' assumption that birth in a place grants legal status (
ius solis) is our experience but at odds not just with most of the world's laws but with the laws of most of human history (
ius sanguinis). The CS policy is reversion to the mean, not some kooky exception.
Re: Why pick on the CS
Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 11:19 pm
by jaymz
Ed wrote:jaymz wrote:
The nation could not function unless a significant portion of the population was literate and pretty much everyone would have to have at least the most basic of math skills (2+2=4, 4+4=8)
Depends on how automated the society is. Even today when you work the cash register at McDonalds you're selecting pictures or icons for the order; with computerized inventory tracking and ordering there'd be no need for more than a hand full of literate people. In a cashless society they wouldn't even need to know how to make change.
And outside of a city you still need math for bartering to know how many chickens you got for that pig.
In a nation of millions you'd still need a significant portion to be literate and have basic math skills not a hand full.
Re: Why pick on the CS
Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 11:38 pm
by llywelyn
jaymz wrote:And outside of a city you still need math for bartering to know how many chickens you got for that pig.
In a nation of millions you'd still need a significant portion to be literate and have basic math skills not a hand full.
Even the innumerate can count on their fingers and remember what maw said a good deal wuz. They just have problems with division, if they can't make equal looking piles of stuff.
Similarly, illiteracy doesn't mean the person doesn't know what the "ENTER" key does or even what that particular series of symbols sound like - they can get by in their daily life with their daily tasks - they just don't know enough to read full sentences or write their own thoughts.
Re: Why pick on the CS
Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 11:43 pm
by jaymz
llywelyn wrote:jaymz wrote:And outside of a city you still need math for bartering to know how many chickens you got for that pig.
In a nation of millions you'd still need a significant portion to be literate and have basic math skills not a hand full.
Even the innumerate can count on their fingers and remember what maw said a good deal wuz. They just have problems with division, if they can't make equal looking piles of stuff.
Similarly, illiteracy doesn't mean the person doesn't know what the "ENTER" key does or even what that particular series of symbols sound like - they can get by in their daily life with their daily tasks - they just don't know enough to read full sentences or write their own thoughts.
Agreed
EDIT - Unfortunately there are some that are very literal and if the person doesn't have literacy assume they can't even know the alphabet or if they don't have basic math can't understand they have 4 chickens after getting rid of that 1 pig.
Re: Why pick on the CS
Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 10:00 am
by Killer Cyborg
jaymz wrote:The nation could not function unless a significant portion of the population was literate and pretty much everyone would have to have at least the most basic of math skills (2+2=4, 4+4=8)
Sure they
could. Just make heavy use of non-literate forms of communication.
Speech-to-text type interactions with computers, touch screens, audio/video recordings and playbacks, and other stuff would make up for most of the lack.
But yeah, there seem to be a significant portion of the CS that are literate, and they still seem to have their share of actual paper-pushers and such that are fully literate.
Re: Why pick on the CS
Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 10:37 am
by flatline
jaymz wrote:llywelyn wrote:jaymz wrote:And outside of a city you still need math for bartering to know how many chickens you got for that pig.
In a nation of millions you'd still need a significant portion to be literate and have basic math skills not a hand full.
Even the innumerate can count on their fingers and remember what maw said a good deal wuz. They just have problems with division, if they can't make equal looking piles of stuff.
Similarly, illiteracy doesn't mean the person doesn't know what the "ENTER" key does or even what that particular series of symbols sound like - they can get by in their daily life with their daily tasks - they just don't know enough to read full sentences or write their own thoughts.
Agreed
EDIT - Unfortunately there are some that are very literal and if the person doesn't have literacy assume they can't even know the alphabet or if they don't have basic math can't understand they have 4 chickens after getting rid of that 1 pig.
RMB p32: "Literacy: The written word is more valuable than ever in the world of rifts, yet sadly, the majority of the world's population can not read or write"
RMB p31: "Mathematics -- Basic: Knowledge of basic math, including the ability to count, addition, subtraction, multiplication, division, and fractions"
If there's a skill for it and someone doesn't have the skill, then they don't know how to do it. Don't blame us for our "literal" interpretation. Blame Palladium's lack of rules for skill defaulting. Letting someone use a skill that they didn't pay for isn't fair to characters who did spend the skill slot for the skill.
--flatline
Re: Why pick on the CS
Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 11:13 am
by Killer Cyborg
flatline wrote:jaymz wrote:llywelyn wrote:jaymz wrote:And outside of a city you still need math for bartering to know how many chickens you got for that pig.
In a nation of millions you'd still need a significant portion to be literate and have basic math skills not a hand full.
Even the innumerate can count on their fingers and remember what maw said a good deal wuz. They just have problems with division, if they can't make equal looking piles of stuff.
Similarly, illiteracy doesn't mean the person doesn't know what the "ENTER" key does or even what that particular series of symbols sound like - they can get by in their daily life with their daily tasks - they just don't know enough to read full sentences or write their own thoughts.
Agreed
EDIT - Unfortunately there are some that are very literal and if the person doesn't have literacy assume they can't even know the alphabet or if they don't have basic math can't understand they have 4 chickens after getting rid of that 1 pig.
RMB p32: "Literacy: The written word is more valuable than ever in the world of rifts, yet sadly, the majority of the world's population can not read or write"
RMB p31: "Mathematics -- Basic: Knowledge of basic math, including the ability to count, addition, subtraction, multiplication, division, and fractions"
If there's a skill for it and someone doesn't have the skill, then they don't know how to do it. Don't blame us for our "literal" interpretation. Blame Palladium's lack of rules for skill defaulting. Letting someone use a skill that they didn't pay for isn't fair to characters who did spend the skill slot for the skill.
--flatline
We know what the skills do.
We also know that having those skills is not necessary in order to know some of the things that the skills provide.
I went over that very, very thoroughly in the Basic Math thread a while back.
Having the math skill includes the ability to count, but the ability to count does not include the math skill.
Math is a set of abilities- if you only have one or two of those abilities, you don't have the skill.
But you DO still have those abilities.
Again, the proof of this is the absurdity of the conclusions drawn if one assumes that ONLY people with the Math skill can count, add, subtract, etc.
Because it would mean that in the game world, nobody could ever learn to count until they also knew how to add, subtract, multiply, and deal with fractions.
Babies wouldn't be able to count their fingers unless they could also solve equations like:
(153/932 * 34/53 * 99/4)/(183/222)
It's an all-or-nothing kind of approach that is demonstrably absurd.
It is also demonstrably NOT canon, as is demonstrated by the Barter skill on p. 304 of RUE:
Barter: A skill at bargaining with merchants, businessmen, thieves, traers and other characters to get a fair price or fair exchange of trade goods or services...[/i]
Restriction: Available only to Adventurer & Scholar OCCs. Mathematics and Literacy are not required, but helpful, with each adding a +2% bonus to Barter.Characters without the literacy or math skill can, by canon, barter and haggle prices.
Having either of these skills adds only a 2% difference in a persons ability, which is not very significant.
Which shows that the people of Rifts Earth can count and generally understand numbers without the Basic Math skill, to a limited degree.
Re: Why pick on the CS
Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 11:16 am
by llywelyn
flatline wrote:If there's a skill for it and someone doesn't have the skill, then they don't know how to do it. Don't blame us for our "literal" interpretation. Blame Palladium's lack of rules for skill defaulting. Letting someone use a skill that they didn't pay for isn't fair to characters who did spend the skill slot for the skill.
You can ignore that or give free skills outside the listed ones, but you can't play it straight.
Otherwise,
your characters can't make tea without the tea skill, use a microwave without the cook skill, or go w/o food or drink without the fasting skill. They can't actually use their literacy until they take the writing skill, know to cover a wound without the first aid skill, or drink water from a stream without the wilderness survival skill. They can pilot, - but only with the appropriate skill - but won't know their speed, battery, or fuel levels until they take read sensory equipment. They can't hold small objects in their hand without the palming skill.
Common sense is very needful here - it's probably Palladium's single most broken mechanic, as written.
Re: Why pick on the CS
Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 11:23 am
by Nightmask
llywelyn wrote:flatline wrote:If there's a skill for it and someone doesn't have the skill, then they don't know how to do it. Don't blame us for our "literal" interpretation. Blame Palladium's lack of rules for skill defaulting. Letting someone use a skill that they didn't pay for isn't fair to characters who did spend the skill slot for the skill.
You can ignore that or give free skills outside the listed ones, but you can't play it straight.
Otherwise,
your characters can't drink tea without the tea skill, use a microwave without the cook skill, or go without food or drink without the fasting skill. They can't actually use their literacy until they take the writing skill, know to cover a wound without the first aid skill, or drink water from a stream without the wilderness survival skill. They can pilot, - but only with the appropriate skill - but won't know their speed, battery, or fuel levels until they take sensory equipment.
They can't hold small objects in their hand without the palming skill.
Common sense is very needful here - it's probably Palladium's single most broken mechanic, as written.
It's already been hotly argued in another thread whether or not basic math skills exist for all humans or if they require training to do even the most basic of math (answer: humans really can't without some training or level of education, which is represented by the basic math skill).
Re: Why pick on the CS
Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 11:53 am
by Killer Cyborg
llywelyn wrote:flatline wrote:If there's a skill for it and someone doesn't have the skill, then they don't know how to do it. Don't blame us for our "literal" interpretation. Blame Palladium's lack of rules for skill defaulting. Letting someone use a skill that they didn't pay for isn't fair to characters who did spend the skill slot for the skill.
You can ignore that or give free skills outside the listed ones, but you can't play it straight.
Otherwise,
your characters can't make tea without the tea skill, use a microwave without the cook skill, or go w/o food or drink without the fasting skill. They can't actually use their literacy until they take the writing skill, know to cover a wound without the first aid skill, or drink water from a stream without the wilderness survival skill. They can pilot, - but only with the appropriate skill - but won't know their speed, battery, or fuel levels until they take read sensory equipment. They can't hold small objects in their hand without the palming skill.
Common sense is very needful here - it's probably Palladium's single most broken mechanic, as written.
No, it's not.
As written, there is nothing anywhere stating that ONLY people who have a certain skill can perform a function of that skill.
Never written, in any form, in any book.
Nothing.
Nada.
It's just something that some people assume, even though it is demonstrably incorrect.
Re: Why pick on the CS
Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 12:34 pm
by flatline
I'm not saying that the Palladium skill system isn't absurd, in fact you've probably all heard me complain about it multiple times by now but if I were to accept KC's argument, then I may as well throw the whole skill system away because now everything is suddenly open to argument:
"I don't know how to drive, but surely I can manage the steering wheel"
"I don't know carpentry, but surely I can use a sanding block"
"I don't math, but surely I can tell that if 3 pigs for a cow is a good trade, 60 pigs for 20 cows is a good trade"
"I don't know how to read, but surely I can find the 'on' button"
"I don't know about handguns, but surely..."
"I don't know about motocycles, but surely..."
"I don't know anything about women, but surely..."
"I don't know first aid, but surely..."
Much better to just acknowledge that the rules are crappy and fix them rather than open a gigantic loophole just because it's "common sense".
--flatline
Re: Why pick on the CS
Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 12:43 pm
by Killer Cyborg
flatline wrote:I'm not saying that the Palladium skill system isn't absurd, in fact you've probably all heard me complain about it multiple times by now but if I were to accept KC's argument, then I may as well throw the whole skill system away because now everything is suddenly open to argument:
"I don't know how to drive, but surely I can manage the steering wheel"
"I don't know carpentry, but surely I can use a sanding block"
"I don't math, but surely I can tell that if 3 pigs for a cow is a good trade, 60 pigs for 20 cows is a good trade"
"I don't know how to read, but surely I can find the 'on' button"
"I don't know about handguns, but surely..."
"I don't know about motocycles, but surely..."
"I don't know anything about women, but surely..."
"I don't know first aid, but surely..."
What's the problem?
Much better to just acknowledge that the rules are crappy and fix them rather than open a gigantic loophole just because it's "common sense".
--flatline
If you can come up with a fix that actually makes things better, I'm all for it.
Re: Why pick on the CS
Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 1:43 pm
by flatline
Killer Cyborg wrote:Much better to just acknowledge that the rules are crappy and fix them rather than open a gigantic loophole just because it's "common sense".
--flatline
If you can come up with a fix that actually makes things better, I'm all for it.
Sure.
1. use the skills as I've said (if you ain't got it, then you can't roll against it).
2. For things that characters have been "taught" but have no proficiency in, notate on their sheet that they've been introduced to the skill and so have a Skill Familiarity with that skill. For example, after 15 minutes of instruction, I knew how to operate a forklift (go forwards, backwards, operate the lift, etc), but I sucked at it (no proficiency). Given enough time, someone with a skill familiarity can do anything that someone with the skill can do automatically without a skill roll (start a car, drive slowly down the driveway...). A skill familiarity has no percentage and does not improve with level.
3. grant every character a free cultural familiarity package (doesn't need to be done at creation, can be added to whenever something appropriate is identified). For example, an illiterate who grew up in the US has probably learned to associate 'H' and 'C' with 'hot' and 'cold' in the context of plumbing fixtures.
4. skills that require a subset of another skill (bartering vs math:basic?) would grant a Skill Familiarity for the other skill, but only in the context of the first skill. If you know that 3 pigs for a cow is a good trade, and 10 chickens for a pig is a good trade, that doesn't help you decide if if 2 pigs and 20 chickens is a good trade for a cow if you don't actually have the math skill.
--flatline
Re: Why pick on the CS
Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 1:52 pm
by Colt47
I don't actually make a habit of picking on the CS so much as the CS High Command.
Re: Why pick on the CS
Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 8:28 pm
by Killer Cyborg
flatline wrote:Killer Cyborg wrote:Much better to just acknowledge that the rules are crappy and fix them rather than open a gigantic loophole just because it's "common sense".
--flatline
If you can come up with a fix that actually makes things better, I'm all for it.
Sure.
1. use the skills as I've said (if you ain't got it, then you can't roll against it).
2. For things that characters have been "taught" but have no proficiency in, notate on their sheet that they've been introduced to the skill and so have a Skill Familiarity with that skill. For example, after 15 minutes of instruction, I knew how to operate a forklift (go forwards, backwards, operate the lift, etc), but I sucked at it (no proficiency). Given enough time, someone with a skill familiarity can do anything that someone with the skill can do automatically without a skill roll (start a car, drive slowly down the driveway...). A skill familiarity has no percentage and does not improve with level.
3. grant every character a free cultural familiarity package (doesn't need to be done at creation, can be added to whenever something appropriate is identified). For example, an illiterate who grew up in the US has probably learned to associate 'H' and 'C' with 'hot' and 'cold' in the context of plumbing fixtures.
4. skills that require a subset of another skill (bartering vs math:basic?) would grant a Skill Familiarity for the other skill, but only in the context of the first skill. If you know that 3 pigs for a cow is a good trade, and 10 chickens for a pig is a good trade, that doesn't help you decide if if 2 pigs and 20 chickens is a good trade for a cow if you don't actually have the math skill.
--flatline
Eh.
Rather than tangent this thread, I'll sum up by saying that I don't think that'd be any better.
If you really care about the specifics, start a new thread.
If not, then peace.
Re: Why pick on the CS
Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 8:42 pm
by Giant2005
Why pick on the CS?
The same reason everyone picked on Germany during World War 2 - their leader looked funny.
Re: Why pick on the CS
Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 9:06 pm
by llywelyn
flatline wrote:Killer Cyborg wrote:Much better to just acknowledge that the rules are crappy and fix them rather than open a gigantic loophole just because it's "common sense".
If you can come up with a fix that actually makes things better, I'm all for it.
Sure.
1. use the skills as I've said (if you ain't got it, then you can't roll against it).
2. For things that characters have been "taught" but have no proficiency in, notate on their sheet that they've been introduced to the skill and so have a Skill Familiarity with that skill. For example, after 15 minutes of instruction, I knew how to operate a forklift (go forwards, backwards, operate the lift, etc), but I sucked at it (no proficiency). Given enough time, someone with a skill familiarity can do anything that someone with the skill can do automatically without a skill roll (start a car, drive slowly down the driveway...). A skill familiarity has no percentage and does not improve with level.
3. grant every character a free cultural familiarity package (doesn't need to be done at creation, can be added to whenever something appropriate is identified). For example, an illiterate who grew up in the US has probably learned to associate 'H' and 'C' with 'hot' and 'cold' in the context of plumbing fixtures.
4. skills that require a subset of another skill (bartering vs math:basic?) would grant a Skill Familiarity for the other skill, but only in the context of the first skill. If you know that 3 pigs for a cow is a good trade, and 10 chickens for a pig is a good trade, that doesn't help you decide if if 2 pigs and 20 chickens is a good trade for a cow if you don't actually have the math skill.
A little more work, but that's actually a very good system.
Re: Why pick on the CS
Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2012 2:33 am
by Dead Boy
Mech-Viper Prime wrote:Dead Boy wrote:Balabanto wrote:flatline wrote:Balabanto wrote:Any mage, dbee, etc can gain the trust of the CS by fighting the Xiticix and bringing back some heads. Not only will they escort you to the border, but they won't take your things or whack your dbee friends. And they will even give you paperwork that confirms your status. There are people like Jericho Holmes who realize the current state of the CS can't last forever.
Where is this stated? Is this cannon?
--flatline
Its in the xiticix book, which no one reads.
Is that among the Hook. Line, Sinker material, because I'm not finding it?
And for the record, I read the book, though it's been some time.
You shouldn't be reading its against CS law,you should be burning down helpless d-bee villages like rest of us CS do apparently.
It's okay. As a Military Specialist it's my job to read and know these things. Literacy and Intelligence are part of my OCC Skills (+10%!).
That said, I'm still not seeing the passage, even in the Xiticix Fighter's section.
Re: Why pick on the CS
Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 5:37 am
by MikelAmroni
Deadboy,
I believe its actually mentioned in the Fort descriptions. Or at least that's the only place I can think of it being. One of the buildings is a trade post style place where you can turn in bounties. Not sure if that's what Balabanto is referring to, but its the only thing I can think of.
Re: Why pick on the CS
Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 4:42 pm
by Furoan
I think it might actually be in the Rifts Adventure book. One of the Hook/Line/Sinker points out that the situation is growing so bad that even if your a D-bee or a mage (as long as a human talks to the actual trooper for you) you can get work from the CS as long as your going to fight them. As long as ANYBODY fights them the CS is happy.
Re: Why pick on the CS
Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 9:31 pm
by jaymz
Furoan wrote:I think it might actually be in the Rifts Adventure book. One of the Hook/Line/Sinker points out that the situation is growing so bad that even if your a D-bee or a mage (as long as a human talks to the actual trooper for you) you can get work from the CS as long as your going to fight them. As long as ANYBODY fights them the CS is happy.
Yeah I remember bits of this. They will hire merc groups with D-Bess. Sort of a CS version of D.A.D.T. They must have a human liaison though so that he CS never actually interacts with said D-Bees.
Re: Why pick on the CS
Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 11:45 pm
by Killer Cyborg
SB1 13
The Coalition government and sanctioned businesses may hire D-Bee and mutants from time to time, but they are seen as worthless scum or pawns by their human superiors.
CWC 54
All Service Specialists are human. Only in remote wilderness areas or in enemy territory far from the Coalition states are D-Bees, mutants, and practitioners of magic occasionally retained as Service Specialists- primarily as scouts, native guides, and spies (all documents will identify them as humans with an acceptable occupation).
and
Employment of a more military nature [for Service Specialists] and involving combat includes serving as a scout, native guide, spy, assassin, smuggler (maintain and service supply lines) and frontline warrior (combat as a mercenary).
Mercenaries 38
If the Coalition military finds proof that there is indeed an Undead Empire to the South...
...the CS is likely to hire "auxiliaries," mercenaries, who have the expertise and know-how necessary to deal with vampires (a tactic that also avoids placing CS troops in danger and keeps the States' defenses at maximum strength). The CS might even stoop so low as to work with practitioners and creatures of magic (let the monsters destroy themselves).
XI 144
In addition to the CS troops, the Fort Commander has been authorized (even encouraged) to use "freelance" help in undermining the enemy. This includes the hiring of mercenaries and adventurers to engage in scouting as well as some of the most daring and dangerous military actions against the Xiticix. Outsiders are used because they are seen as cheap and expendable. Of course, only humans and psi-stalkers are hired, although CS officers doing the hiring usually deal with one or two representatives from a mercenary team and have found it prudent to avoid asking too many questions. Consequently, while no D-Bee or practitioner of magic is officially on the CS payroll, they may actually be silent and invisible members of the groups hired to kill the xiticix, raid their outposts, bushwack patrols and explore their hives.
and
It should come to no one's surprise that the Coalition Military can be duplicitous and treacherous employers who will use many excuses for not paying their hired guns. One of the most common practices is to hire groups of mercs and adventurers and then refuse to pay, or worse, gun them down, because they are dangerous criminals who fraternize with "enemies of the States"- i.e., they have (even on) D-Bees and/or practitioners of magic in the group.
Re: Why pick on the CS
Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2012 2:31 am
by kogwar
Killer Cyborg wrote:SB1 13
The Coalition government and sanctioned businesses may hire D-Bee and mutants from time to time, but they are seen as worthless scum or pawns by their human superiors.
CWC 54
All Service Specialists are human. Only in remote wilderness areas or in enemy territory far from the Coalition states are D-Bees, mutants, and practitioners of magic occasionally retained as Service Specialists- primarily as scouts, native guides, and spies (all documents will identify them as humans with an acceptable occupation).
and
Employment of a more military nature [for Service Specialists] and involving combat includes serving as a scout, native guide, spy, assassin, smuggler (maintain and service supply lines) and frontline warrior (combat as a mercenary).
Mercenaries 38
If the Coalition military finds proof that there is indeed an Undead Empire to the South...
...the CS is likely to hire "auxiliaries," mercenaries, who have the expertise and know-how necessary to deal with vampires (a tactic that also avoids placing CS troops in danger and keeps the States' defenses at maximum strength). The CS might even stoop so low as to work with practitioners and creatures of magic (let the monsters destroy themselves).
XI 144
In addition to the CS troops, the Fort Commander has been authorized (even encouraged) to use "freelance" help in undermining the enemy. This includes the hiring of mercenaries and adventurers to engage in scouting as well as some of the most daring and dangerous military actions against the Xiticix. Outsiders are used because they are seen as cheap and expendable. Of course, only humans and psi-stalkers are hired, although CS officers doing the hiring usually deal with one or two representatives from a mercenary team and have found it prudent to avoid asking too many questions. Consequently, while no D-Bee or practitioner of magic is officially on the CS payroll, they may actually be silent and invisible members of the groups hired to kill the xiticix, raid their outposts, bushwack patrols and explore their hives.
and
It should come to no one's surprise that the Coalition Military can be duplicitous and treacherous employers who will use many excuses for not paying their hired guns. One of the most common practices is to hire groups of mercs and adventurers and then refuse to pay, or worse, gun them down, because they are dangerous criminals who fraternize with "enemies of the States"- i.e., they have (even on) D-Bees and/or practitioners of magic in the group.
That is the most logical stance while the cs does not like DBS they arnt stupid and will take full advantage of these "lesser beings" and let's be honest if a large cs platoon does not pay off a squad of five mercs exspecially if the have a db or mage who is going to make them? I mean what are they going to run the CS's good name lol.
Re: Why pick on the CS
Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2012 5:21 am
by Vrykolas2k
keir451 wrote:Nightmask wrote:taalismn wrote:Nightmask wrote:kogwar wrote:So pritty much people just want a bad guy to kill.
Pretty much. They want to be the Big Damn Heroes battling the evil empire like we see in literature and anime so often, not the street corner hero who tripped a purse snatcher so the police could catch him.
Or the Good Intentioned But Naive Do-Gooder who Fights The Man/City Hall/The System without realizing that The Man is all that's standing between them and societal collapse...
Well the CS isn't privy to that standing though, if anything it goes around creating societal collapse so it can gain from it. The war with Tolkeen for example destabilized a large swatch of landscape by destroying a rival kingdom that provided a measure of order and contro and leaving nothing but death and anarchy in its wake. The CS isn't some magical lynchpin without which another Dark Age is going to occur. If anything it's a cause of a potential return by destroying rebuilding efforts in its greed and hatred.
That's certainly one way to look at it. Of course the CS doesn't view themselves as the "bad guy", or that they may potentially cause another Dark Age.
I think that's part of the "I hate the CS!" problem too many people look at them from the outside, the whole Deathshead symbology, following Hitler's example, etc., and forget the CS's point of view, namely that they see themselves as saviours of humanity.
If they were that, the 'Burbs would be a recognized part of the CS.
Among many other obvious short-comings.
The CS is actually holding humanity back in most ways that matter.